254. Start Fresh: How Framing, Timing, and Talk Can Improve Your Finances

How to have more open conversations about money. Talking about money is taboo for many people. But according to Wendy De La Rosa https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/wendy-de-la-rosa/, financial well-being only starts when we break the silence around finance. De La Rosa is a professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and a co-founder of the Common Cents Lab, an initiative aiming to increase financial well-being for low- to moderate-income people. For many, she says, shame keeps us silent about money. “Shame is paralyzing, and more than any other negative emotion, [it] leads us to ignore,” she says. But when it comes to financial well-being, ignoring our finances is the last thing we should do. Instead, De La Rosa advocates for open discussion. “Talk about finances,” she says. “How did you ask for a raise? What are you getting paid right now? These are important conversations that help everybody.” In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, De La Rosa and host Matt Abrahams explore how to have more open, productive conversations about finances. Whether you're a manager thinking about employee financial wellness or trying to broach a difficult topic with a partner or friend, De La Rosa offers practical strategies for breaking through the taboo around money. To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/. Episode Reference Links: Wendy De La Rosa https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/wendy-de-la-rosa/Ep.104 How to Change: Building Better Habits and Behaviors (And Getting Out of Your Own Way) https://www.fastersmarter.io/104-how-to-change-building-better-habits-and-behaviors-and-getting-out-of-your-own-way/Ep.59 From Dreaming to Doing: How We Set and Achieve Goals https://www.fastersmarter.io/59-from-dreaming-to-doing-how-we-set-and-achieve-goals/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/254-start-fresh-how-framing-timing-and-talk-can-improve-your-finances/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (00:48) - The Fresh Start Effect (03:11) - Pay Timing Shapes Behavior (04:27) - Productivity and Financial Stress (06:53) - Framing Financial Choices (09:26) - Understanding Financial Shame (11:56) - Rebuilding Your Financial Environment (13:21) - Giving Financial Advice With Care (15:53) - Normalizing Money Talk (16:57) - The Final Three Question (20:58) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources. One of the most challenging conversations we can have is about finances. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I look forward to speaking with Wendy De La Rosa.

• 0:42Matt Abrahams?

  Wendy is a professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and she's the co-founder of the Common Sense Lab. That's C E N T S. Her research focuses on understanding and changing consumer financial behavior. She studies how small changes in a person's financial environment can have a large impact on their spending and saving habits. Well, Wendy, I am super excited to have this conversation. Thanks for being here.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

• 1:08Matt Abrahams?

  Yeah, shall we get started?

• 1:09Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 1:10Matt Abrahams?

  In your work on financial decision making, you've spent some time working on the fresh start effect. Can you share what that is and how we can actually leverage that in our own motivation?

• 1:19Speaker 01

  That's such a great question. I want to give credit where credit is due. So, the fresh start effect is identified by Katie Milkman, one of my amazing colleagues here, who leads our initiative Behavior Change for Good. And in her work, she sort of identifies the fact that everybody wants to change. We want to be better humans. We want to be better parents, better spouses, et cetera, better with our money. But the how and the when is always a little bit hard, bridging that gap between intention and action. And so, one of the key findings in behavioral research is that we need to time our interventions really well so that your motivation to act is activated and peaked. And so, we know from research that the number one time when people download financial management

• 2:01Speaker 01

  apps at the app store, for example, is December 31st and January 1st, right? New year, new me. But fresh start effect doesn't just Have to start there. We can think about our birthdays. We can think about new seasons, the beginning of every month, the beginning of every week. One of the experiments that I conducted with a company called Silverness, we used this idea to do something that I think was really unique. So Silverness is this company that tries to connect older adults with each other to try to solve a problem. One, housing is so expensive now in the United States. But two, we have a loneliness epidemic. And we know one of the biggest predictors of our long-term health,

• 2:43Speaker 01

  even our longevity, is the number of daily meaningful interactions we have with another human being. And so they try to pair up older adults. As you can imagine, that's a hard ask, right? Let me invite somebody that I don't know into my home. So we ran a couple of experiments on their marketing, mostly on Facebook ads, to say, hey, you're 64, turning 65. Have you thought about a change? Or you're 49, turning 50. Or you're 53, turning 54. Have you thought about a change? Versus, you're getting older. Have you thought about a change? It's not a surprise. People know their age. It's not new information. But it's a cue to say, there's a meaningful change happening. Maybe I should reexamine how I'm living my life. And we saw that it led to higher click-through rates on the ads.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  It led to more activity on the website. And so we were really excited about that.

• 3:33Matt Abrahams?

  This idea of finding signals that can help move people from intention to action is really important. And it can be a particular date. It can be some other significant event that just helps us refocus. And it sounds like it leads to not only more focus, but actually more action.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  For me, I think timing is everything, not just in relationships, right? We have that old saying, timing is everything. But timing is everything when it comes to behavior change. It was one of the core sort of findings in my dissertation that even the timing of how we receive our money. So if you receive your paycheck every week versus every two weeks versus every month, that fundamentally changes how much money you think you have. So higher payment frequencies, right? When we have shorter time intervals between when we get paychecks, it makes us feel a little bit It richer and so therefore we're more likely to spend on the margins. So it paradoxically can undermine our financial well being. Holding constant the objective level of income. Right. So we're both earning whatever it is 50,000, 100,000, 150,000.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  But just by changing the timing of it, all of a sudden our relationship with money changes. And we have so many examples of showing the importance of timing. As this under explored, but really important aspect that we should all be thinking about in our lives.

• 4:49Matt Abrahams?

  So if I'm a manager, running an organization, how could I leverage your insights into timing? To perhaps motivate my employees more, help with efficiency and productivity? Any ideas on that?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's two key recommendations I would have. The first one is we know that productivity is fundamentally tied to financial well being. So if your employees are financially stressed, they can't show up with their full self at work. Their brain activity, their attention is going to be focused on something else. And so as a manager, I always say, look, you know that when your employees are sick, you give them a sick day. When they need vacation, when they need to rest to avoid burnout, right? We have vacation days. I suggest giving everybody a financial health day. Because everybody, again, going back to this intention, action gap. We all know that we should go back and revisit our retirement allocation and increase that. Right. We all know that we should finally get around to opening up a 529 account for our children.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  We all know that we should probably create a will and all of these things that people know they should do. The critical piece is time. So if you create a norm in your organization, create a financial health day to say, everybody, on this date, we're all going to try to get our collective act together. Take the time to finally call your credit card company and ask for a lower interest rate. Take the time to finally cancel that old subscription that you know you should have canceled 20 years ago, or whatever the case may be. Because it's not just something good to do. Research has shown it increases the productivity of your workers. So that's tip number one.

• 6:18Matt Abrahams?

  I like that idea and you've just motivated me to go change some subscriptions I have. So thank you.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  You know, I always tell people, put it in your calendar. Love yourself enough to prioritize you today. But the second piece is to really fundamentally think about the timing of when you're asking your employees to make financial decisions. For example, we ask our employees to make critical financial decisions in the first week of employment. Like, what's your retirement allocation going to be? In the first week that you've just hired somebody, they're probably trying to have multiple calls with IT to figure out what their login, username and password is going to be, to remember whether or not your name is, you know, Dick, Joe, or Harry, right? There's so many things that are happening in that first week of employment. Like, it's just not set up in a way that's sustainable. So I think that's one.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Like, create space for employees to go back and actively encourage employees to go back to really think about that decision, if you don't already automate it.

• 7:15Matt Abrahams?

  I think you're dead on right when we ask people early on in their careers to make all these fundamental decisions, that they're just trying to get which end is up figured out. I felt the same way when my wife and I got engaged. There were all these questions about what do you want for your gifts, et cetera. And had I had a year into the marriage, I would have changed everything about what I was asking for. And so the idea that we can help our employees by having them make these decisions that are long-term, a little later, once they have a more appreciation, I think is a great idea. You've studied the power of framing on financial choices. Can you give a specific example of how our leader or managers' communication framing of, let's say, a budget cut or some new financial policy can either trigger a scarcity mindset or inspire a problem-solving mindset?

• 8:00Matt Abrahams?

  How come the words we use and the way we position it influence how people see it?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I, along with Stephanie Tully and Isha Sharma, have looked at this concept called psychological ownership, which is like people's feelings about things, places, ideas. Do I feel like I own Stanford, a piece of Stanford? Do I feel like Stanford is mine? I think about my own laptop. I even say, this is my laptop, even though the ownership of it is actually the University of Pennsylvania's laptop. It's really important to think about what is the psychological ownership that your employees feel over the organization? Because if this is my organization... Clearly, I'm going to care much more about that organization and go out of my way to make sure it succeeds versus if the framing and the communication is all about, you are just on loan here.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  You're not going to get the same level of investment, motivation, attention from people who just recognize that this is not something that, this is not a dream that I own. I don't own a piece of it. I'm not invited to even dream about a future here. And so when negative things occur, if you involve people in the process and are transparent and treat people with dignity so that they can feel psychological ownership, I think that's really important. Suzanne Shu at Cornell has done some work looking at if you increase the sense of psychological ownership of citizens over public lands, people are much more likely to take care of that land. So this is one of the psychological constructs that goes beyond just ownership of a thing, right?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  We can think about ownership of places, ideas, membership, institutions, organizations, and oftentimes we ignore that. And so I encourage any leader listening to this, check yourself, right? I'm from the Bronx, so just check yourself. What are the words that you're using to describe your own organization?

• 9:48Matt Abrahams?

  I'm going to go home and try this with my kids. Talk a lot about your room, your cleanliness, and see if I can get them to pick up the stuff around. But this idea of it's how you can connect people to their work and to what they do, and then that changes the relationship they have and the care and concern they put forward. You discussed the concept of financial shame. What is this? And how can we talk about money more openly with friends and family to overcome this barrier so we can actually have more honest, open conversations?

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, shame is one of these negative emotions that's paralyzing in many ways. And I think we have, and I'll talk about this more in sort of the US context, we have thought about financial well-being as this individual pursuit, right? If I am financially successful, by and large, we make dispositional attributions, basically.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  It's because of your work ethic, it's because of your intelligence, all of these internal factors versus external factors, right? We tend to downplay luck, our communities, our support systems, our mentors, all of these things. And so when people find themselves in a place where they are not financially secure, where they feel like they are doing everything they can and yet they're struggling, because we've created this narrative about financial well-being being this individualistic pursuit, then who is to blame other than myself? Only me. And so that vicious cycle creates the shame where how can I even talk about this openly? Because me talking about this openly is only going to lead to me recognizing my own personal feelings over and over again.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  And shame, more so than any other negative feelings, emotions leads us to ignore. And in financial well-being, that's the worst thing you could do, right? Not doing anything is the worst thing you could do. So what I like to tell people is let's breathe and try to melt the financial shame away, because we have to recognize that every company out there is getting faster, smarter, more efficient. Of course, we haven't even talked about AI in this conversation, at getting you to part with your money. It's not even a David versus Goliath metaphor, if you like that metaphor. It's a David versus thousands of Goliaths. And so once you've recognized that the environment is not necessarily set up for you to succeed, then we can have a little bit more empathy with ourselves and then recreate our environment.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  And that's the critical piece, right? We can't just sit in the current environment and expect things to change. Let's figure out how we can do our best to recreate our environment.

• 12:18Matt Abrahams?

  What are some things people can do to recreate that environment? So they feel a sense of agency rather than being the victims of not doing what they should be doing?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  That's a great point. So first I tell people, you know your financial situation better than anybody else. You know your vices and your virtues. Take the financial health day, as we talked about earlier, to get a handle on your vices. And what does that mean? For some people, it's I recognize that I can say no to that new jacket one time, but when it follows me throughout my entire online journey, day Day in and day out, I may not have the willpower to say no the 100th time. And so how do we recreate our environment and install ad blockers throughout your entire financial life? The convenience of a DoorDash or Instacart or Uber Eats is just so high. And so I tell people, either make the decision to remove that app from your phone,

• 13:10Speaker 01

  or link it to a prepaid card, where you're installing and instilling a mandatory limit on yourself. And then the third piece is, timing matters so much. So I sound like a broken record now, but it's just, it is so critical. Take a look at when you receive your pay. And take a look at when your bills come in. And if there's a fundamental mismatch there, because you get paid on the first, and your big credit card bill is not due until the 17th, then now you're allowing opportunities for overspending. Call the credit card company and change your payment day so it aligns with your paydays.

• 13:43Matt Abrahams?

  It sounds like you're talking about automating some things that keep you on that path, and also looking at all the automations that already exist and challenging some of them, so that you can not necessarily fall victim to some of that work. As somebody who might want to give advice or to help someone who is perhaps not in as much control of their finances as they'd like to be, do you have advice and guidance on how to give that kind of feedback in a way that doesn't feel threatening and can truly be heard and helpful?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  I'd like to frame it from the concept of love. Like, when we see somebody that we love with a broken arm, we don't just ignore it. We don't just turn our head and pretend and hold their other hand. That's not what we do. We try to address it. We encourage them to go see the doctor. For whatever reason, we don't do that with financial wellbeing. And finances, I like to say, are the hidden person at the dinner table. If you know you have a friend that's going through a major life change, whether that's a new child, getting married, going to college, moving across the country for a new job, getting divorced, going through a cancer treatment, everything that's meaningful in our lives sadly also come, by and large, with some

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Financial change. And so to ignore that is actually not loving. And so the first thing I would say is approach it from a place of love. I really care about you. I love you. Help me understand what's going on and how can we help? And help doesn't have to be always lending or giving money. Help can be helping someone walk through a situation or connecting them to the appropriate resources or just providing time and support. There's all of these ways that we can help. The second thing I'll say is that there are troubling statistics showing that people are much more likely to talk with their friends about their political ideology, their past dating history and sexual escapades and all of these things. But for whatever reason, money is still taboo,

• 15:43Speaker 01

  so much so that engaged couples, like 40% of engaged couples have not shared their income with one another. Like, you're about to say, I'm ready to go through life with you, but I don't, you don't want to share your financial picture? There's something fundamentally broken there. And this is maybe a little cliche, but if you're going to spend life with someone, have the financial conversation. Make it a date. Get a bottle of wine. Put it on the calendar and say, let's be vulnerable together. Because what else is love if not vulnerability?

• 16:15Matt Abrahams?

  Framing it as love and as a gift of concern for somebody, I think, is a great way of doing it, rather than I have something that you don't have and let me help you. I really like the idea of turn it into an event. Make it something that isn't a labor. It's something that actually can be fun, if you will, just to have this kind of connection.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  And change the norms around the discussion. One of the things that my girlfriends and I used to do is we used to have monthly brunches just to talk about finances. So how did you ask for a raise? What are you getting paid right now? These are all important conversations that aren't had and that help everybody. But it's odd to have that conversation. So you have to create a norm. Hey, we're going to be transparent with each other about this because we care and we're going to lift each other up. And so, yeah, let's do it over boozy brunch.

• 17:03Matt Abrahams?

  I think that's great. I have found in my life with lots of topics that are taboo that just initiating the conversation opens up the opportunity for others to share. And I love this idea of let's make it fun or let's connect and let's show how we're supporting each other. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production, so we can bring you this show for free.

• 17:30Matt Abrahams?

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• 18:12Matt Abrahams?

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• 18:56Matt Abrahams?

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• 19:23Matt Abrahams?

  Wendy, this has been a fantastic conversation. Before we end, I like to ask three questions of all my guests. One I create just for you and two are similar across everyone. Are you up for that?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  I am.

• 19:32Matt Abrahams?

  So Wendy, you've done a lot of really interesting, in-depth research. I'm curious, what has surprised you most in the work that you've done?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  I think the core finding that has sort of always stuck with me is that we always tend to think about income as this unidimensional construct, right? It's all about, I earn 50,000 and you earn 70,000, or I earn 100,000 and you earn 200,000. And that's actually just one dimension of income, which is level. The thing that has surprised me the most is how much we can change and alter and influence consumer behavior by altering the other dimensions of income, like the frequency, like the income volatility of income, like the source, whether it's coming as a bonus or as a salary. All of these things that we didn't really get into in our conversation really matter

• 20:22Speaker 01

  and frame how people think about that money and fundamentally spend that money.

• 20:27Matt Abrahams?

  That idea of widening the aperture to look beyond income as just one unitary thing can really make a difference. Thank you for sharing that. Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Oh, so many. I will say, Adam Grant has just been such a powerful force. I was his student his second year when he joined Barton. And I think he has such an amazing way of connecting with people by sharing his own vulnerabilities. And so I like to emulate a lot of my teaching based on him. He's been highly influential in my life and I'm so lucky. But I think the most direct and most influential communicator in my life has been my mother. She is the queen and master of Caribbean idioms that just cut deep in a way that no one else can, right? I was sharing recently, and I just find myself now repeating her idioms. Learn to love those who love you. And that was, those are just words from my mother.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Or, "There's a lid for every pot." Or like, all of these things that have so much wisdom.

• 21:28Matt Abrahams?

  I was just gonna say wisdom in common vernacular saying.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yes. In a way that is so succinct, it doesn't waste any words. She is a great order, but it's her ability to just pull on these idioms that make her so amazing.

• 21:43Matt Abrahams?

  And how they hit a chord, they strike a chord. And if your mother is like my mother, they come at just the right time.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Sometimes when you don't want them to, but you need them.

• 21:52Matt Abrahams?

  And they reverberate for a while, and you really see how they hit. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  So the first I would say is curiosity. You can't actually engage in a conversation without being curious about the other person. If not, then you're just engaging in a soliloquy. The second would be humility. To understand that what you're hearing is not necessarily what the person is saying. There's so much loss in hearing. And then I think the third is clarity. So in order to be an effective communicator, you need to be clear in your own wants, in your own needs, and in your own message. And so much gets lost in vagueness. I think people keep saying clarity is kindness. I think that's so true.

• 22:39Matt Abrahams?

  Curiosity, humility, and clarity. A wonderful recipe. The point about curiosity is the bridge to connection. Humility, to realize that we bring a lot to our conversation that might actually get in the way of what's really being said. And making sure that we are focused, so that people can understand. Thank you. And thank you for providing the focus we all need to be thinking about when it comes to our finances, but more broadly, about how we learn and approach very difficult, challenging situations in our lives. And financial information and finances are one of those things. This has been wonderful. Thank you.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 23:23Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about how to be more effective in your financial communication, please listen to episode 104 with Katie Milkman and episode 59 with Succi Wong. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams, with special thanks to the Wharton Podcast Crew. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.

• 24:04Matt Abrahams?

  Please consider our premium offering and extended Deep Thinks episodes, Ask Matt Anything, at fastersmarter.io/premium. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.