Emily Atack - ‘I’ve forgiven people for unforgivable things’

*triggers: contains description of physical assault Emily Atack left school at 16, confident she wouldn’t need a GCSE for what she wanted to do: act. It turns out, she was correct. She starred as Charlotte Hinchcliffe in the smash-hit comedy The Inbetweeners when she was just 17 and is currently on our screens as Sarah Stratton in Disney+’s hit drama Rivals, as well as co-hosting a new ITV game show, Nobody’s Fool, with Danny Dyer. But it hasn’t always been easy: she faced sexual harassment and abuse from the age of 10. We talk about the impact this has had on how she now understands her own capabilities and about how her unbreakable bond with her sister, Martha, has helped her survive the toughest challenges. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction to Emily 03:19 Learning Boundaries 05:33 Class and Growing Up 07:39 Paul McCartney Connection 10:00 Failing to Believe In Herself 14:58 Leaving Home at Sixteen 25:10 Inbetweeners Fame Fallout 30:18 Praise for Rivals 31:23 Earning Creative Trust 32:51 Emotional Regulation Struggles 35:40 Forgiveness and Loneliness 37:20 Childhood Trauma and Sex 41:35 Alistair and Finding Home 46:52 Motherhood and Body Image 55:19 Keeping Nice Things and Goodbye 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: So many people don’t take responsibility for their failures…. Which is why this podcast is so great. Forgiveness is something you have to find in yourself I hate being called fat - it hurts my feelings. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Emily hosts ‘Nobody’s Fool’, a brand new strategic quiz show with Danny Dyer, available to stream on ITVX, with the final three episodes airing on 30th, 31st May and the final on 1st June at 9pm on ITV1 and ITVX Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Katherine Parkinson - Fresh from her latest BAFTA win, Katherine Parkinson joined Elizabeth to discuss the self-doubt, trauma, humour and resilience that shaped her journey from awkward outsider to one of Britain’s most beloved actors: swap.fm/l/CplscDFzT9oyNGV1Oan0 Danny Dyer – the actor and national treasure on identity, anger, vulnerability and learning to break the patterns you were born into: swap.fm/l/L192dU5DZHQnCUjFWuX8 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Elizabeth and Emily answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] _________________________________________________________________________ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I just needed to pay the rent. So it was kind of like, I have to get this job. There's no, there's, you know, I can't fail at this. But Rivals is just allowing me to go in and do my job and do it well. I remember somebody saying to me when I was younger, nobody's coming to save you. And I've, I've never actually told anybody this.

• 0:20Elizabeth Day?

  This episode of How To Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that firmly believes failure is what makes us human. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode.

• 0:40Elizabeth Day?

  Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels. But I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me. Ernesta makes designer quality rugs, custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home.

• 1:20Elizabeth Day?

  I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing. And Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernestacom and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernestacom. One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD

• 2:04Elizabeth Day?

  because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD.

• 2:10Elizabeth Day?

  And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable. So you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, no CD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Emily Atack was raised in Bedfordshire, the daughter of an actress and a musician, and also, somewhat surprisingly, the first cousin twice removed of Sir Paul McCartney. She grew up surrounded by people who made their living in show business.

• 2:54Elizabeth Day?

  So when she left school at 16, she was confident, she later said, that she wouldn't need a GCSE for what she wanted to do. This, it turned out, was acting. And she was proved right, landing her first audition playing a footballer's girlfriend in the TV show Blue Murder. But it was as Charlotte Hinchcliffe in the smash hit comedy The Inbetweeners that she became famous. Atack was 17 when she got the part, which for many years would come to define her, for good and for bad. She found herself on the cover of magazines and ushered into the VIP areas of nightclubs, but also faced an overwhelming level of sexual harassment,

• 3:35Elizabeth Day?

  experiences later recounted in her BBC documentary, Asking For It. In 2018, she was the runner up in I'm a Celebrity and started focusing on comedy with an ITV sketch show and stand up tour. It was a pivotal moment, both professionally and personally. In 2022, she started dating a childhood friend, the nuclear physicist Alistair Garner. The couple are now engaged with a baby boy who is almost two. Motherhood, Atack says, has made her feel, I'm now living for something other than myself. And Atack is enjoying an onscreen resurgence too, back playing the fabulous Sarah Stratton on Disney Plus's hit drama Rivals,

• 4:17Elizabeth Day?

  as well as co-hosting a new ITV game show, Nobody's Fool, with Danny Dyer. Described as a strategic reality quiz, Nobody's Fool is designed to test the contestants' intelligence, or rather, who they think is the smartest out of all of them. Although she was meant to stay impartial, Atack says she found it hard not to root for the contestants. "I got emotional at the very end," she said. "I do find that hard, the boundaries." Emily Atack, welcome to How To Fail.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  I'm not meant to be crying yet. God, wow.

• 4:52Elizabeth Day?

  You're so lovely.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  That's such a lovely introduction, thank you.

• 4:55Elizabeth Day?

  It's a pleasure.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Bang on, every single detail.

• 4:59Elizabeth Day?

  That's a real relief because I-

• 5:01Speaker 00

  That never happens, there's always something that people kind of, you know, get wrong. That's amazing, thank you.

• 5:07Elizabeth Day?

  No, thank you for being here and you've had such an extraordinary career and you're still so young because you started so young.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:15Elizabeth Day?

  And congratulations on everything that's been happening for you lately. I wanted to end on that quote about boundaries because it's something I struggle with too.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 5:24Elizabeth Day?

  Talk to me about boundaries, Emily.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  I mean, what a way to kick it off, amazing. It's some boundaries as something that I've learnt definitely later in my 30s, early 30s, I would say. Boundaries are something that I didn't grow up with and that has, that was a kind of a beautiful thing and a terrible thing all at the same time. And I've learnt, maybe, I think maybe now that we are, that mental health is more of a discussion in life, you know, people are having therapy a lot more and, and being honest about that. And therapy for me has always been a massive thing and, and boundaries is the first thing that I learnt about in therapy. So part of who I am will always be that I forget the boundaries.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  But I'm really, it's something I really, really try to every, everyday practise having my own boundaries and not worrying about upsetting people when you create those boundaries.

• 6:22Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, I know we're going to unpack some of this more deeply in your failures, but I also think it's so interesting because- Your lack of boundaries is possibly what also makes you so relatable and and loved because you are phenomenally gorgeous, which can actually be quite intimidating and it can create this distance. But maybe it must be quite sort of difficult, it must have been difficult to travel that line. And especially when you're doing something like Nobody's Fool, which is such a brilliant premise.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 6:52Elizabeth Day?

  And where you have to maintain this this sort of persona where you're not showing emotion. So how hard was that?

• 6:59Speaker 00

  They really did sort of spot that early on that I I didn't have favourites as such, but I was very, I was very bad at playing the host in that way of being completely kind of impartial. Being at the helm of a show like that with lovely Danny, part of the reason why they chose us is probably because we are personable and, you know, but yeah, I really did have to kind of learn that it is, it's a game and there is lots of money involved and people take it very, very seriously.

• 7:25Elizabeth Day?

  And it's fascinating because the first episode, although the premise is that they have to choose which one they think is the smartest.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:33Elizabeth Day?

  It struck me how much of it is also about class. Because the first episode, the first exercise, the sort of posh, white, older bloke who went to Eton is automatically just assumed to be the cleverest.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:46Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm interested in class and rivals is also all about class.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 7:50Elizabeth Day?

  So have you always been interested in class?

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Always. It fascinates me because I I grew up, I've always been in a very unusual position with class. A journalist once described me as classless. And at first I sort of went, oh, what do you mean by that? But then what what she meant was, she said, what I mean by that is that you can't really kind of put you in any of them because you you're relatable and personable to every kind of class. And I think I grew up in a very mixed way like that. Like I, even though my parents were who they were and we were privileged in a lot of ways and we had a big, beautiful house and we went on nice holidays, but. We didn't go to private school. They were very much, my parents were very set on raising

• 8:34Speaker 00

  us as kind of normally as possible. I hung around with like lads in puffer jackets and that all smoked weed in their cars, you know, it was like, you know, like People Just Do Nothing, the show, the amazing show. It was like that, like I literally grew up. So I was kind of known to them, my friends like that, as the posh girl. So then, as I, as I kind of grew up and left school and started, started working, I actually realised I wasn't the posh girl at all. Having pals, no matter what background they came from, I just genuinely didn't care about what background they were from. So, yeah, I grew up in a, in a household where class didn't matter, your background didn't matter.

• 9:17Elizabeth Day?

  And I mentioned that your mother's an actress and your father's a musician. Now, just to give them their due, your mother is Kate Robins, who provided a lot of the voices for Spitting Image and wrote the song Surprise, Surprise.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  She did.

• 9:28Elizabeth Day?

  It's so amazing. And your dad was a guitarist for Bonnie Tyler?

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yes, for thirty years.

• 9:33Elizabeth Day?

  Incredible. Bonnie Tyler, formerly of This Parish, she was formerly on How To Fail. Now, your parents, amazing. I want to hear about Paul McCartney.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair dues. Fair enough.

• 9:43Elizabeth Day?

  Was he round for a Sunday barbecue?

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Well, I'm sure he's the one that goes around bragging that he's my cousin, I'm sure. But yeah, no, he was very much a part of my childhood. He's a lovely man and he's a family man. And he was, so the relation is, he's first cousins with my grandma, Betty, who's not with us anymore. But he very much, and he writes about my grandma in all his books, and every opportunity he gets, he talks about my grandma, because she was such, and my grandad, because they were such key figures in his life when he lost his mum really young. So he was very, yeah, he was very much a part of my mum's childhood in, on Mount Road, in that mad house. Oh my god, so many memories in that house. The back door was always open, you know, people would be coming and going all the time. And yeah,

• 10:28Speaker 00

  so my mum grew up in Beatles mania, and it was, she said it was just the most insane thing. Actually, she said one of her- Earliest memories was John Lennon was babysitting them. Paul and John would kind of come around and babysit them whilst my grandma and grandad worked in a, in the pub. So, yeah, it was, it was an interesting childhood for my mum and really unusual and creative and insane.

• 10:53Elizabeth Day?

  Were they good babysitters?

• 10:54Speaker 00

  Apparently so, yeah, yeah, they were and mum, Paul, he was like a sibling to them really. He was a bit older and I think, because my grandma was quite a lot older than him. He kind of really saw her as like an auntie figure really. Growing up for me, he was hugely a part of my childhood. I remember Linda really well. She used to take us out on her horses that they used to have beautiful, amazing acres of land that we'd all play on. And I remember once arriving at his, at his house for Sunday lunch and he said, oh, you've just missed Michael Jackson. And I was just like, I was, I was kicking, I was, I was fuming and he was like, sorry, is it not enough that, you know, you relate to a Beatles? I was like, no, I want to meet Michael Jackson. But yeah, so that was for, and then, and he had news.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  See parties all the time and yeah, huge part of my childhood.

• 11:44Elizabeth Day?

  Incredible, incredible. Let's get back to you because this is what this is about and your failures, there's so much in them that I want to get straight on to them. Thank you so much for the effort that you've clearly put into thinking about this. It means a lot to me. Your first failure, as you put it, I have failed to believe in my own capabilities.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  Yes, so I, I can't remember how this started really, but I, I just remember being very little and thinking that I couldn't do things. I don't know why, it was, I think, I think if I'm being really blunt and honest, so there was me, Martha and George. I was the pretty one, Martha was the clever one, George was the naughty one, right? That, not completely, but if we're just in a nutshell, kind of seeing that. I think that's, I think for young girls particularly, this is where it starts where if you are so, I mean, Martha was beautiful, don't get me wrong.

• 12:44Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, these are the labels you were given.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Yes, but it was like, I, I couldn't have the brains because I was the tall blonde one that grew boobs really young. And all the boys fancied me and I fancied the boys and I played kiss chase with all the boys when I was younger and I was obsessed with boys. I was boy mad. I feel like adults without meaning to and family members, they kind of, they create these roles for you. So they become comfortable to you. So I think I leant in to that. And I think that, okay, I knew I was the tall, pretty one that mum and dad were proud to sort of physically show me off. And whilst Martha was playing on her little, you know, she would be looking at bugs in the corner on her little, I say, I don't even know what they're called. Microscope.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, microscope, that'll do. I mean, that sounds, sounds terrible, but I think for girls, that's, it's kind of where that begins a little bit. So, so I, I always kind of thought that that was all I was capable of, just standing there looking nice and being charming and, you know, being flirtatious. And that was, that was kind of my thing. And so when I, when I realised as I got older that I had so much more to offer, it took a long time for me to be brave enough to, to actually say, I've got more, more to offer. But then at the same time, those things worked for me for a very long time. But over the

• 14:08Speaker 00

  years, I have found that when I have pushed myself and done things that people have really rolled their eyes out and gone, you won't be able to do that. I've always surprised people and I've always surprised myself and gone, oh, actually I can do that. Even when it came to doing I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, you know, I, I was always sort of seen before that as the, the sort of pin up of the in betweeners and the, you know, the school girl, the girl next door posing in lads mags. And people didn't know who I was as a person. So I really enjoyed taking off that mask on I'm a celeb because you have to, there's nowhere to hide in there. And I think, yeah, people got to know me as a person and realised that I did have more interesting things to say. And I don't

• 14:49Speaker 00

  know what word to use without saying it, but I wasn't this tart that, that kind of had this, you know, this kind of optic that had been painted for me. I mean, I'm still a tart. I've kind of, I kind of love that word and I kind of wanna own it.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  But like, I just, I just had more to give as a person, I think, which is what surprised people. It's terrible that it does surprise people.

• 15:13Elizabeth Day?

  Your career trajectory is so interesting because it happened at a certain time, sort of pre Me Too.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  Yes, pre social media.

• 15:20Elizabeth Day?

  Pre social media and also during a time when we're kind of still there, but where we didn't allow women to be more than one thing.

• 15:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:26Elizabeth Day?

  So that childhood label became crushing in its way and you were very good at it. And I would love to go back to that moment when you were 16, when you left school and you moved to London with Martha, your younger sister, and decided you were gonna make it as an actress. What was going on for you at that time?

• 15:49Speaker 00

  God, it's funny, my heart races when I think about being 16. I was a very troubled teenager and I, I find that very difficult to talk about because I, I was such a loved child and we were encouraged to be creative and we were so privileged in so many ways. But there were a lot of, a lot of things that went on in my childhood that really scarred me and, and have traumatized me, really.

• 16:23Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sorry.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  And people underestimate families splitting up as well. So when I was 16, my mum and dad split up. They're great friends now and it's all fine now, but at the time it was really awful. And my brother was only 13 and Martha was 15. And my mum, God love her, she, she couldn't cope. It was, it was really, really difficult and. So my dad had moved out of the family home and my mum decided she she needed to to get away for a while. And I so yeah, Martha and I moved into a flat together. And my brother

• 17:07Speaker 00

  George went to live with my aunt and uncle. And it's it sounds so it sounds awful. And I I tread very carefully because my parents are amazing, beautiful, wonderful people who loved us so much. But they this was a very difficult time. And my mum, bless her, she she just couldn't cope. And I, as a mother now, and as an adult, I I I get it now. And I was very angry at the time. It was all very scary and very awful. Because I was such a troubled teen, my poor parents, they just didn't know what to do with me a lot of the time. And I was hanging around in the wrong crowds. I was I was I was sexually active

• 17:47Speaker 00

  with older boys and men. And that was very difficult for my parents. And so I remember when my when my dad left, I remember at the time, and I've never actually told anybody this, but I was pregnant. And I was I was very young. And I was in this awful abusive, horrible relationship. And I fell pregnant. And it was it was just in the middle of all this kind of stuff going on with my mum and dad. And I remember, I remember, I remember

• 18:26Speaker 00

  because all of that awful stuff was going on. And obviously, the pregnancy didn't I'm I'm I've never spoken openly about how or what happened. And I don't know if I'm ready to yet. But obviously, that pregnancy didn't continue.

• 18:42Elizabeth Day?

  God, I'm so sorry for everything you were going through.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  And so, you know, my family was kind of falling apart. And and that was happening. And I I just felt very determined. So when we moved into this flat, I remember little Martha looking at me and going, what are we gonna do? And I said, I'm gonna become a famous actress. I just said it. I just made sure that I did. And

• 19:12Speaker 00

  And as I say, my, my parents are amazing people and they, I don't, I don't berate them in any way for this. They, everybody makes mistakes and this was just a period of time where lots of mistakes were being made and, but now as a mother, I understand. And also those mistakes, I think actually they've led me to, to be where I am now because I think a lot of people think that I had it all handed to me on a plate because of who my parents were and because my mum was an actress. But I, I did it by myself. I really did. And in the middle of, you know, doing, of being in these abusive, horrible relationships,

• 19:53Speaker 00

  just trying to kind of, I wanted to be with somebody, you know, I wanted to be looked after. And so I was, I was going out with all these awful guys and, and, and doing all that. I was trying to make a life for me and Martha and, and yeah, and, and it sounds, when, as I'm saying it out loud, it does, I really don't want people to think my parents are terrible, terrible people. They really aren't. And I love them so much and we have the most amazing relationship. And I, and I do think it made us all stronger as a family. And I, I do thank them for it because I genuinely don't think that I would have had that strength and the fearlessness. Cause I would, I went into my first ever audition, like you said in the introduction, which nobody really knows about this. I went

• 20:37Speaker 00

  into my first ever audition, just completely, there was not a care in the world about what I looked like. I didn't feel self-conscious. I just needed to pay the rent. So it was kind of like, I have to get this job. There's no, there's, you know, I can't fail at this. And I got the part and I, and it was from there, I mean, cocky as anything, because you know, from there, the in-betweens came very quickly and I was earning money and I just started, I started working and Martha passed her driving test a bit later on and started driving me to auditions. And yeah, so it was always me and, me and Martha against the world.

• 21:14Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much for, I mean, what a strong, strong person you are. That is a phenomenal story.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  I've never told anybody those things.

• 21:22Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I feel honoured that you have told me that. Thank you. And I just want to reassure you, it comes across loud and clear how much you love your parents.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Yes, I do.

• 21:32Elizabeth Day?

  You and Martha.

• 21:35Elizabeth Day?

  It's one of the most special relationships I think I've ever had the privilege of researching on this podcast. Your, your younger sister is now your manager. She's an extraordinary agent for other people, including me. She's head of unscripted TV at Curtis Brown, major agency. She's, she's made a phenomenal success of her life. I wonder, we very rarely get a chance on this pod to talk about sisters. Will you talk about how important your sister is?

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Wow. I mean, it's, um,

• 22:08Speaker 00

  it's, it's an unbreakable bond between Martha and I. And it's, it's something that I, I could, I would not have survived without Martha at all. And she,

• 22:23Speaker 00

  I think when we were little and we were growing up, I did everything I could to protect her. And again, not, it just, just from the madness and the chaos of, of what was our lives. And bless Martha, she was, she was the middle child. So she wanted organization and structure and routine. I didn't give a shit about that, and nor did my naughty little brother. Like, we, we liked the fact that mum and dad would sometimes sleep in and we, we missed the alarm for school. That was great to us. But to Martha, it was that, that really, she hated all of that. And so I really did my best to protect Martha from a lot of things. And I think now she's just cut, it's almost like she repays, she, she's repaying the favor, you know?

• 23:06Speaker 00

  And she now looks after me and my career and my life. And it's, it's, it's just so funny looking at us from being children to then going into our teenagers, which is when she started to notice that I, I wasn't the most stable older sister in the world. I was very vulnerable.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  And I was very chaotic and I made some terrible decisions. Actually, you know, thankfully, she was able to watch, look at my behaviour and realise, God, I don't want to do that. When shit hits the fan, when bad things happen, when we're grieving, when a family member passes away or something, that's when I switch back into older sister mode. And I go, right, okay, I'm gonna sort this out, it's gonna be fine. But yes, day to day, she, I mean, she knows when my period is. I have to ask her when I'm due on my period. I literally rang her the other day and I said, I was like, I haven't got my period yet. I'm like, she's like, no, you're not due on for another couple of days. I'm like.

• 24:00Elizabeth Day?

  That's amazing.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Mental, insane.

• 24:03Elizabeth Day?

  She does that for all her clients. Yeah, Greg James.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. He really needs to know when his period is. I remember we, when we decided that it was time to separate and I had to go off and live, she met a lovely person who she had a really long, wonderful relationship with. They were going to move in together and I was gonna go off and, you know, go to the sunset and make the big time, you know, it was kind of that. And I remember the day I left the flat and it was, we, I find it so hard to talk about. We've never spoken about it because it was just too much,

• 24:45Speaker 00

  it was too, it was, I couldn't, we couldn't say goodbye. And I just, I went, right, see ya. And I just turned around, I just turned around and I kept walking and I didn't look behind me. But it was a really important moment because it was, I knew she was safe and I knew I could leave her there.

• 25:03Elizabeth Day?

  Oh my gosh.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  I knew she'd be okay. And she knew I was okay.

• 25:08Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  And it was just this unspoken thing. We didn't hug. We didn't say goodbye. I just got in a van with all my stuff and I just, and I, and I just left. And we both knew it was gonna be, we were gonna be okay. So it was a big moment for us.

• 25:26Elizabeth Day?

  Bless you.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Thanks, thank you. We'd been taught that love by our parents, our wonderful, mental, creative, insane parents who we just love so much. I would, I really wouldn't change any of that.

• 25:43Elizabeth Day?

  And it was also the time when you are on the in-betweeners.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:48Elizabeth Day?

  And.

• 25:50Elizabeth Day?

  Do you tell me if you're sick of talking about this?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  No, no, it's fine.

• 25:54Elizabeth Day?

  Because it was such a massive cultural shift for so many of us, that programme. And for you, just in the context of what we're talking about here, about underestimating your capabilities, I wonder how ambivalent you ended up feeling about that role. Because on the one hand, it catapults you into this sort of stardom and you are brilliant in it and funny and talented. And on the other, you also are treated by a misogynistic culture really horrendously, which probably feeds into all of that trauma that you had from an early age.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:33Elizabeth Day?

  So I wonder, how do you feel now, looking back at that period of your life and that role in particular?

• 26:39Speaker 00

  Well, I loved playing that role and I loved all the attention I was getting. And not the negative stuff, but I loved that it had catapulted me and I was getting invited to all these cool parties and all these like really hot men wanted to go out with me and I would get, me and all my friends, we'd go to all these nightclubs and, you know, we'd get, we'd get all the best tables and they'd bring over the big, massive bottles of vodka with fireworks in them, you know? Do you know what I mean? And, um, yeah, and they were really fun years and I was able to kind of do that for my mates. And that, you know, they sort of loved having a mate that was on the telly. I didn't really have any telly friends at that point. It was all very much people I went to school with who are still my best friends now.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  And there was the outer, the outer thing of being the pin up and being on the front page of Loaded and FHM and doing all that stuff. But that to me was just, that was just how I sold my work and that was very normal. And I enjoyed those photo shoots, fine, I didn't think anything of it. I'd stand there in my pants, I'd break for lunch. My mum always came with me on those shoots and we'd sit around and I'd sit there in my knickers and have my lunch and then carry on. And then I'd go, and then I'd go home, back to my flat in Bedfordshire and have all my mates over. And then we'd all watch, watch it on the telly. And, but I was, I was very safe in my, my real life. I've just managed to always keep that really separate. So it was, it was always quite jarring when.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  When I did see all these things out there, when when social media started to really become a thing and people were writing about me in all these kinds of ways and I started getting all these kind of crazy messages of old men and people saying things to me in the street. I I really did well to cotton wool myself from that when I wasn't in it. So and yeah, and I think that separation is kind of what saved me going mad really with it. So yeah, it was always, it was confusing because I just didn't, I didn't see myself in in that way. I remember like all the pictures of me in The Inbetweeners, it was just, it was me in a school uniform. But people go, oh, yeah, the sexy schoolgirl uniform. I'm like,

• 28:47Speaker 00

  no, no, it's not, it's not fancy dress meant to be sexy. I'm just a schoolgirl playing a schoolgirl. I hadn't long left school when I started The Inbetweeners. So I was just wearing a school uniform. So I didn't, I I genuinely innocently didn't understand the sexual um crassness that was linked to it. I really didn't. It was about the four boys and, you know, entering their teenage years, trying to get off with girls. That that was the the premise of the show. And I know that, you know, that it's peppered with the the fit girl at school. It was kind of me and Emily Head were sort of, you know, the Emily Head who plays Carly. You know, we were the kind of the, you know, the bit of totty

• 29:30Speaker 00

  poster girls for it, I guess. But even that didn't, I didn't feel that there were, there was any, anything sexually aggressive about that. It was just, that was just a bit of fun. It was a young, cool, sexy new show, the new skins, people were calling it, you know. So when it was, when it became aggressive, that's, it was confusing. I didn't, and also when I was kind of blamed for that behaviour, that's what I didn't understand. Because I was kind of like, hang on a minute. Because people were saying, well, if you, you know, if you don't want to be treated like that, you shouldn't be wearing a really sexy schoolgirl outfit on TV. I'm like, that, what? I'm playing a schoolgirl, I'm playing a role that means

• 30:12Speaker 00

  I have to wear a schoolgirl outfit. If that's then plastered on websites and, you know. I remember there was like deep fake porn sites, even then with like my head on, you know, naked bodies, like being done up the arse. And it's like, you go, no, no, but with like a school tie on, like, and I just, I genuinely, I didn't understand that. I'd found that very confusing because I was going, oh, is this my fault then that I'm kind of getting all this negative attention? I just, it was really confusing.

• 30:44Elizabeth Day?

  I bet. Also, you were a teenager, wearing a school uniform, playing that role.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:51Elizabeth Day?

  So there's this whole other dark added element to it.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:55Elizabeth Day?

  That must have taken years to unravel.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 30:59Elizabeth Day?

  In terms of your capabilities and how you're feeling about them now.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 31:03Elizabeth Day?

  I feel from an outside perspective that you are in an amazing, rich period of your professional and personal life. And you're just only going to keep going. And, and you're sort of on this really incredible trajectory. To see you in Rivals, just brilliant acting. I mean, we were chatting before we started recording, you're so good on that show.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  Thank you so much.

• 31:26Elizabeth Day?

  Really, like so funny, but also so moving. There's one particular scene that I'm going to talk about again, in the second episode of the second season of Rivals, it's this phenomenal dinner party scene. And you're pretending to cook it, but actually it's tagging in here. And there's this moment where you move from laughter to tears to exasperation, to then having to gather yourself and walk into the dining room with a pot of stew. And I really did just sit, sit there and think, that is amazing acting.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you so much. I think it's because I'm not acting. I think it's because, honestly, like my whole life has been building up to that moment. And I think the reason why Sarah Stratton means so much to me is because it's the first time in my life, look, I've, I've been given like lovely opportunities and roles. And I'm so grateful to the in-betweens and other jobs along the way that, that have really kind of put me up the ladder a little bit and. But I do feel with rivals, there is a particular trust that they have with me that I've never had, that nobody has ever had with me before, which is they believe I can do it. And they believe that I don't, I don't just have to be the girl that stands there

• 32:38Speaker 00

  in the corner, not saying much. They've given me more to do. They've given me these beautiful scenes because they know I can do it. They believe in me. And that has taken me 20 years, almost. I've jumped through so many hoops. I have, and don't get me wrong, I know I'm talking from a white, middle, you know, white privileged position. But I have had snobbery over the years. People have been very snooty towards me because of, you know, the fact I've got blonde hair, boobs, posing lads' mags, I wear fake tan, eyelashes. I've always got a dodgy fake tan situation going on. But rivals is just allowing me to go in and do my job and do it well.

• 33:24Elizabeth Day?

  Let's move on to your second failure. I fail to emotionally regulate.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 33:32Elizabeth Day?

  I've never had this failure before. It's so self-aware.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  It's something that people love about me, and it's also something about me that gets, it's got me into trouble over the years. And I always sort of think back to childhood with things, and this is years of therapy, I think, but I always sort of think, where's that come from? That I've always, I've never had any problem with expressing how I feel. I make sure everybody knows how I'm feeling. And I think it's saved me over the years. I don't bottle anything up. I wear my heart here, here, here, here, everywhere. And I hand my heart over on a little fluffy cushion and I go, just, just take it, take it. Like, the bin man could say to me, oh, hello, Em, you all right? And I'll go, oh, I've got the worst period pains ever. I just, maybe I've got endometriosis.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Oh, God, I'm just, I'm really, I'm really, I've got all these pains and I just, honestly, I, I don't stop. I also am very reactive. And I think a lot of this comes.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Uh, from men as well. Over the years, I've really failed to emotionally regulate when it comes to my relationships, my sexual relationships, who I'm dating, what's going on in that situation. And it's the kind of men that I've dated, I've always dated very problematic, troubled men who I'm trying to fix. And it's like, oh, let's be toxic together, let's try and fix each other. And then if something goes wrong in that relationship, I've reacted really massively. Like, I could literally be, and obviously not now, I'm in a different situation now, but back in my dating days, I could have been in a, I could be about to do like the biggest job of my life, signing a huge contract. And

• 35:12Speaker 00

  if I get a text saying, sorry babe, got to cancel tonight, I would, I would drop everything. And I'd go, I've got to go home, I've got to go home, I just can't, I just can't. And I can't deal, I just cannot deal with that kind of rejection. I've, as I say, I've learned over the years to kind of manage that. But you know what really annoys me? Really annoys me that I feel like all I've ever done is work on myself. I am exhausted with how much I've had to work on myself. But people, not everybody does. And I think it's so important to work on yourself because I'm the first person to admit when I, and like, like you said, I'm self-aware, I'm so self-aware. And I'm the first to admit when I'm to this or to that. And I do everything I can to try and change it. But people don't,

• 35:57Speaker 00

  lots of people don't take responsibility for their failures.

• 36:00Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my God. I hear you so deeply.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I guess that's why this podcast is so great, because it's sort of taking responsibility and going, this is what, you know, this is what I've been bad at, this is what I failed at.

• 36:12Elizabeth Day?

  Absolutely. I'm interested by something you said there about how you feel your ability to share emotionally has saved you at points. When's it saved you?

• 36:22Speaker 00

  I think people, people always know where they stand with me. So there's never, I never hold a grudge, ever.

• 36:29Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  And people have, yeah, well, and people have wronged me over the years, trust me. And this is where. Without sort of lowering the tone too much, but I have forgiven people for unforgivable things that they've done to me. And I believe that forgiveness is, it really, it's not just a cliche, it really is something you kind of have to find in yourself in order to, you know, move on from something that has maybe troubled you. And I do, I, I, I feel like my, my ability to forgive has done that. It doesn't really matter about their reaction. I know that I've cleansed myself of that. Growing up, I felt so lonely. I was

• 37:10Speaker 00

  lonely. And I, and even though I was surrounded by people all the time, and I was so loved, but I was so lonely. And I remember, and me and Martha and George, we, we, we bicker about this because their reality is very different. They don't remember feeling lonely. And they kind of go, why? And I'm like, I don't really know how to explain it. I just felt, I felt lonely. And so over the years, to me, building those connections, getting deep with people and like, even if I meet you in a toilet, you're my best friend, like forever. And that, I think, even though that's got me into trouble with my love life, I think it's enabled me to keep friends and have good friendships.

• 37:53Elizabeth Day?

  One of the reasons a child might feel lonely is if they're keeping a secret or protecting someone from knowing the truth about something that has happened.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:04Elizabeth Day?

  Do you relate to that?

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yes, completely. Because even, I think, I, I was keeping so much from my parents when I was young. Again, it's going a bit, a little bit dark, but like, I, I was, I was sexually assaulted, first of all, when I was 10. That was when I was first ever sexually assaulted. And that, I, I remember being 10 years old, and from that moment, I was treated badly, appallingly, by older men from that age, like throughout my life. And I think the loneliness came a lot from that. And lots of things happened that my parents, to this day, still don't know the detail of, of, you know, of, of how men have treated me and touched me and said things, whispered things to me in my ear when, you

• 38:48Speaker 00

  know, people aren't in earshot. And I think a lot of the loneliness stemmed from that. And from that, I then developed a really unhealthy relationship with sex and with boys, because I kind of leant into that behaviour a little bit. And I also found that I felt I knew I was wanted and desired by men from a really young age, sexually desired. And that to me as a child, it's really confusing because you, I think I, I, I needed, I wanted to feel that. I didn't want to do the sex stuff, but I liked that feeling of feeling wanted and validated and

• 39:27Speaker 00

  being called pretty and, you know, I had crushes on, on older men who would then take advantage of that. But then ma- but then sort of made me feel that that was, that was a good thing. Like there were so many situations from sort of like, I remember particularly eleven, twelve, thirteen, when I really started to kind of wear makeup and look a lot older. And I was hanging around with lots of older people. I was sneaking out all the time, you know, my parents couldn't control me, I was just out the door. And, uh, and I developed these sexual connections with much older men. And that was, it was a space where even though I hated the sexual part of it,

• 40:12Speaker 00

  I was, it was a space that I felt quite powerful and not lonely.

• 40:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  So even the irony was that I felt lonely because I, because of the kind of the attention I was getting from like a really, really young age, that made me feel lonely and isolated because I didn't. My parents, whenever they did know about it, it was too difficult for them to kind of discuss. So then I just kind of internalized that, which made me quite lonely. And then, but then weirdly leant into that behavior and found sexual connections with men to try and cancel out that loneliness, which doesn't really make sense.

• 40:48Elizabeth Day?

  It makes complete sense. First of all, I'm so sorry and horrified that you went through that. And it's a testament to the woman that you are, that you are sitting here today. Successful, powerful, stable, with a beautiful family of your own. I just want to pay tribute to that because that requires an astonishing amount of work and drive.

• 41:13Elizabeth Day?

  And it makes sense to me because there's a, there's something around safety here, isn't there? That, or, or love. And if you are conditioned from such a young age to believe that the antidote to loneliness, or a feeling of safety, or a feeling of love, comes with this sexual element with ultimate, then it, it completely, it does make logical sense.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:37Elizabeth Day?

  That you didn't stand a chance. You were being manipulated. And I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  It's unusual. It's, it's, um, yeah, it's very odd. And it, it has, over the years, kind of, I've, I've had a quite an unusual relationship with sex. And, um, it's kind of, yeah, it's been, it's been odd. But then to be a person who's highly kind of sexualized.

• 42:02Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  All of that sort of simultaneously. Like, it, it's, it's really, it was really confusing. Yeah.

• 42:08Elizabeth Day?

  Can we talk about Alistair?

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yes, please. I love Alistair.

• 42:13Elizabeth Day?

  Did I get that right? He's a nuclear physicist. Cause some, some pieces describe him as a material scientist. And I did single science GCSEs. So I've got no clue what either of those really means.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. He's a nuclear physicist. He did his PhD on the corrosion performance of siliconium in nuclear reactors.

• 42:27Elizabeth Day?

  Sorry, that's so cool.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  He's, uh, yeah, I hope I said that right. Um, he's so cool. And he is a very key kind of ingredient, um, in all of this. And he kind of ties my life up in a bow at the end. It's an interesting story with Alan and I, because we've known each other for 30 years. I remember meeting him when I was very young. I think I was about five years old when I met him. That might sound strange to some people, but you know, we were just kids then, and we would just play together. And, and so we reconnected as adults, but kind of going. Oh, we've got such a connection and it's like, it is a bit confusing and a bit odd, but we really fancy each other.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  And then, you know, and we, and we were kind of going, yeah, but we're not allowed to fancy each other because my auntie is married to your dad. It's weird. And so there was, obviously there was all that kind of back and forth, but we kind of couldn't help it in the end.

• 43:26Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Also, it's not weird. No, it's like having a neighbour on the same street and they have a kid the same age and you play together and then that develops into something.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  Exactly. And, and we remember each other from our childhoods and all of that. And I remember his beautiful brother Jim, um, who, yeah, who, who sadly passed away when he was 21. And so we, we are, and then Al lost his dad, Steve, uh, just a couple of years ago. And I was there when Steve passed away. And it was then, in that moment, when Steve passed, that we decided that we were never going to leave each other's side. Because what are we doing wasting this time? We're going through all these relationships, all these boyfriends and girlfriends that we don't want to be with and we want to be together. And, yeah, and we, we decided from, literally from that moment, we call it the hug.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  There was a moment where, just before Steve had passed away and he was, I was, sat with him and I walked out into the corridor, um, of the house and, uh, Al just hugged me and we, we just didn't, we didn't stop hugging for about 20 minutes. We just held each other for 20 minutes, not saying anything. And it was the first time I'd seen Al look so frightened and scared and alone. And, and I just, I hugged him. And then, and then Steve died really shortly after that. And so we, we're bonded by this kind of grief, but also this strength of kind of spirituality in a sense. I mean, he's a scientist, so he'd argue that slightly, but there's this really unusual and unbreakable bond Al and I have.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  And people find it strange and, you know, but I think when you know my stories is why I'm quite keen to sort of, it's sort of tell all those details of my upbringing and, and all of that. Because it, I think it makes a bit more sense as to why I've, I've decided that I need to be with Al and I, and he needs to be with me and we, we need each other and. He helped me kind of, because I remember somebody saying to me when I was younger, nobody's coming to save you. So you need to get a grip and you need to, you know, try and find out a way to save yourself. And I just remember thinking that was so crushing

• 45:47Speaker 00

  when I was younger. But then when Al, when Al and I got together, someone said, yeah, Al saved you. I said, no, he helped me save myself.

• 45:55Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  But he's, he's the best and he's really hot.

• 45:58Elizabeth Day?

  He is.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  He's so hot.

• 46:00Elizabeth Day?

  I can say that objectively.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  And now we've got Barney and.

• 46:04Elizabeth Day?

  Your baby.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Yes, and he is just the most hilarious little thing. And, and then it's funny, you, I look at him, I look at Barney and I'm just like, oh, he was always meant to be here. Barney was always meant to be here. Barney is like me. Barney's, it's almost like looking at me as a child and kind of just doing everything I can to correct the mistakes. Well, I'll make my own, I'm sure, as a mother, but I just, I'm so lucky and that I've been blessed with Barney.

• 46:37Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think that becoming a mother to Barney has helped you mother yourself?

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Yes, completely. And it's helped me understand self-care. It's helped me understand, yeah, how important it is to look after yourself. And because you have to be this pillar of strength and be this stoic rock to this tiny little person. And he, he just loves me unconditionally. I've never seen anyone look at me the way Barney looks at me. And it's, it's so special and magic and the irony that I've had people objectifying me my whole life and looking at me in a certain way, whether it's, you know, the male gaze,

• 47:23Speaker 00

  men looking at me in a certain way, or it's people judging me or whatever. Barney just looks at me in this pure. Non egotistical, non salacious, pure, beautiful way that I'll never see on anyone ever, and I never have seen on anyone ever. And it's really amazing.

• 47:45Elizabeth Day?

  Healing.

• 47:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:47Elizabeth Day?

  This male gaze that is so accepting and loving, without question.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly that. I know. And he points at my body and goes, what that babies? And it's like, oh, I'll tell you when you're older.

• 48:00Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  But yeah, he's just, oh, he's just a blessing. I just adore him and he just loves his milk and he loves baby bells and.

• 48:10Elizabeth Day?

  Straightforward.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:12Elizabeth Day?

  I wouldn't normally ask this, I don't think, but because of everything you've been through and because of how you've been portrayed and how you've been seen, how do you feel about your body now?

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Um, I love what it's been through and I love,

• 48:34Speaker 00

  I love my Caesarian scar. I wear it so proudly and I look at my body very differently in that sense, but if I'm honest, I still have a job to do and I still feel I've got a million insecurities about my weight and that will, I think that will always be there. And, and I really wish I could say that having a baby has given me this whole new attitude towards my weight and, um, you know, but having a baby has given me a different attitude in, in so many different ways with my body, but I still, I still struggle with, with that. And I think women, there's a certain love language we have as women

• 49:16Speaker 00

  that all we do is talk about weight. That's all we do. That's all we do. And no matter how intelligent you are, no matter how much you like to think you don't care, you do, because we are conditioned to believe that it's, it's, it's such a huge part of our worth. And I have to admit, it's something that I will work on because I work on myself, but I find it really difficult. I hate being called fat and overweight. It hurts me. It hurts my feelings. Being called fat, um, especially when you've been sexually objectified.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  It's sadly, I, I, I, you, I sort of go, well, I'm either one or the other. I'm either somebody that men say they wanna spunk on, or it's, it's the, no, I'm, she's, she's too fat. Oh, no, she, she's, she needs to lose weight. Look at her, who ate all the pies? And it's like, when I just had a baby, it was ruthless. Yeah, it was awful. So, yes, I, I hate being called fat. I hate it. And I wish I could say I don't care, but I hate it. It hurts my feelings.

• 50:18Elizabeth Day?

  Do you know what, Emily? I'm so glad that you said that.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 50:22Elizabeth Day?

  Because I think that people need to remember that when they are saying those things, without really thinking them through and believing that you can take it, because you're famous, gorgeous Emily Atack. Actually, it's so important to have a reminder, this hurts me.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  It hurts.

• 50:39Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm not making it into a feminist issue and I'm not politicising it. It just hurts me, Emily, because of everything that you have been through. I think it's so important that you said that.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  Thank you. And I think we're so, we're now having to do the thing, aren't we, of being strong about weight and kind of going, you know, um, oh, fuck, fuck the patriarchy. We, we should, you know, we should just own our curvy bodies and we should, um, you know, any, any body's a bikini body. And I love, it's so incredible. And I feel so sorry for us as women, actually, feeling like we, we're so traumatised by, by this subject that we feel that we have to get together on mass and we have to build this community of telling everyone to piss off when it's about weight and that I'm gonna own my curves and I'm, I don't care, you know, I don't need to be skinny. I don't, but actually, it's, I just really feel for us

• 51:33Speaker 00

  and I'm supportive of all that, don't get me wrong. But I am just being really honest and saying, yeah, that, that, that's great, but I will still go on holiday next week. Um, and I will be packed in a bikini and I will be called fat. I will. And I will hate it. And I will, I will put a picture up on Instagram in a bikini and go, And I'll find the right angle where I I I look at how I want to look. And I'll be happy with that and I'll get I'll watch the likes rolling and I'll watch the lovely comments come in going, oh, you look great. But there will be a cesspit and a pool of awful comments when paparazzi pictures come out. Or, you know, because they deliberately get the worst angles they can. And it will all be about um how fat I am.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  And that is really gonna sting and it always has done. And I hate it and I it feels I get embarrassed. Being called fat makes me feel really unattractive and and it makes me feel uh unsexy and I feel it, yeah, feel embarrassed. Um, and I don't, I I don't want my body all over the internet. But with people saying with people saying that. So maybe maybe there's a world in which where I am on those covers of magazines. Where everything is photoshopped and everything is everything is, you know, edited. Um, and it's a version of yourself that you are happy with. Maybe that's just a more comfortable place for me to be.

• 53:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I also want to make it clear because I I I don't want there to be any room for misunderstanding here. I know that what you're saying is not that you think fat in and of itself is bad. You're saying as it pertains to you, when people troll you by using that word, it has a particular cadence for you.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Yes, completely. I'm not, this is exactly it. I'm not speaking on behalf of any other woman other than myself and my own body in this particular instance. Because there are complexities about being called fat for me that just really trigger me.

• 53:34Elizabeth Day?

  Does it help? Because my husband has spoken about this on this podcast, actually, about his body dysmorphia.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:41Elizabeth Day?

  And he says it doesn't help him when I say, you look great, you look amazing. He's like, that doesn't help. It does help me.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  A man say that.

• 53:50Elizabeth Day?

  It's really interesting and I was really proud of him for opening up about it. Um, does it help when people say you look great?

• 53:58Speaker 00

  No.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 54:03Elizabeth Day?

  In a way, I think what that does, it makes it a superficial issue and actually it's deeper.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I sometimes want to say when people are like, but you, but you're lovely where you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for me personally, I want to be smaller or I want to be. And even I could be doing the best work of my life, but I'm still looking at how many chins I've got on the, on the monitor. You know, it's like, but that's because I, I, I don't want, I just don't want people to say it to me. It just hurts my feelings. You know, there are, there are certain insults that people just can't take and that are just really awful. And that is just one of them for me.

• 54:38Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  And I want to be a good role model and a positive role model, but I'm just being honest.

• 54:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, you are such an amazing role model because of that honesty, because of the effort that it costs you. And do you know what? Ninety nine percent of women listening to this will relate. And it's probably one of those things that comes with time and comes with age. Bring it on.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:59Elizabeth Day?

  Like that peace with our, with our physical selves.

• 55:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:04Elizabeth Day?

  There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its AI tools can help you get your site up and running quickly. And Shopify Checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, ooh, I like that, to, yes, I'll have one.

• 55:44Elizabeth Day?

  If Shopify had existed when I started out, I could have saved myself a lot of time, stress and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the. Of your first sale today, head over to shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at shopify.co.uk/fail. Let's move on to your final failure, which is, I fail to have and keep nice things.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:14Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so what, what kind of things?

• 56:16Speaker 00

  So I, I feel like when we were growing up, Martha was, Martha, whenever we'd like go somewhere, like on a, on holiday, on a trip, Martha always had like a perfect little suitcase with her little toiletry compartments. She's got one of those really grown up toiletry bags with compartments in it.

• 56:35Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  And I remember looking at that like, what are you going to do? Just using all her stuff, putting it all on and just like, I'm that person. Like if I'm on holiday, I lose everything, I lose everybody else's things. I, I turn up hungover with a bag of just like, oh, just the bits that I need and that's kind of it. Honestly, I'll just shove a load of shit in the bag and then that's me, done. I believe that I, I don't deserve nice, I don't deserve expensive, nice things. I don't know why. And Al says it's, it's something he's really noticed about me. Like I, I love buying things for other people. I love giving people presents. It sounds like I'm trying to be all like Mother Teresa, but like, I

• 57:20Speaker 00

  love spoiling people. I don't feel like I deserve nice things and I can't, and also don't, don't get me nice things because I can't keep them nice and I can't, I'll, I'll, I lose everything. It's the Bermuda Triangle of my life. If you come, if I borrow something off you, you're never seeing it again. And I can't help it. I'd, you know, and people have, over the years, they've had a go at me and said it's, yeah, but it's disrespectful of other people's things. And I'm like, yeah, I know that now and I, I should, I should be better. But I just, I think I'm just, I don't have a materialistic bone in my body.

• 57:51Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 57:52Speaker 00

  So I don't care. I don't care if I lose my phone. Don't care.

• 57:55Elizabeth Day?

  Wow.

• 57:55Speaker 00

  Don't care.

• 57:56Elizabeth Day?

  What's the nicest thing you've ever bought yourself?

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Well, probably my house.

• 58:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  And my mum's house. I bought my mum's house for her, which is the most, the biggest privilege in the world that I can do that. But again, it's, it's all very much for other people. I still don't really know how to buy myself anything nice. I've got a few nice handbags now.

• 58:17Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  But that's kind of it. I don't. But also my handbag, I've got, I've got a nice handbag next to me down here, but wait till I show you what's inside it.

• 58:25Elizabeth Day?

  I can't wait to see.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  It's got like an old baby bell in it, weeks ago, and like it's, I think it actually does have a pair of knickers in it.

• 58:33Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, Emily, I never want you to change. I only want you to change to like make your life better in, if you ever need it to, but I just, I never want you to lose this. It's so special and so unique and so authentic and so lovable.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  Thank you. I mean, my mum drew the line at a bottle of, you know, those little mini bottles of wine. I was kind of saying, no, I'm off the booze at the minute, I'm off the ale, I'm doing a couple of weeks, you know, being, being good. And then I put my bag on the floor and she said, what the hell is it? And it was an empty, one of those little bottles, little bot for the jern. And I, you know.

• 59:09Elizabeth Day?

  A little bot for the jern.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Bot for the jern, that's, that's one of Greg's favourite phrases that I came up with years ago, Greg James's. But yeah, yes, so I am that, I'm that person, I'm scatty and I'm very disorganised, but I like to treat people, I don't know how to treat myself. I'm that person that you go on holiday, you go on holiday with me and within minutes, the towels are covered in fake tan, there's stuff everywhere. It's, it's like my aim, just to see on how much I can shit up a hotel room really quickly. Like it's, but I don't mean to. And everyone's like, Emily!

• 59:45Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, you sound so fun to go on holiday with though. Listen, what an absolute delight and a privilege it's been for me to talk to you.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Oh, no, me too. Like, I thank you and I, as I say, I, yeah, I'm an, I am an open book and I do wear my heart on my sleeve and I hope nothing I've said gets me into trouble, but I think it's important to, to talk and it's important to share and I'll always be an oversharer. That's just who I am.

• 1:00:12Elizabeth Day?

  Never change. I appreciate you so much for it. Thank you so much, Emily, for coming on How To Fail.

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:00:17Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.