She Refused To Be a Bridesmaid. Then She Went Viral (w/ Ruhama Wolle)

This week Haley is joined by Ruhama Wolle, author of 'I Hope You Elope: A Bridesmaid Survival Guide' to get real about the true cost of weddings...for the guests. They break down the viral article that lost Ruhama a best friendship, spill the most money they've ever spent attending a wedding, and discuss the etiquette around navigating the modern wedding landscape. Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The other day I was going through my desk and I found a journal right from when I graduated and it had pen and paper, how much I spent each day. At this time, I think I was making around forty thousand dollars and access cash flow was pretty tight. So I had to watch every penny. I think about how far we've come with technology and advancements to help us with this stuff. We don't need a journal with pen and paper anymore. The answers are out there and Monarch is one of those answers. Monarch is literally, it's like having a financial advisor in your pocket. So you can use AI to help see what you're spending. Monarch will help you have full visibility in your accounts. It will help you see your trends. It will help you set goals, map out big purchases.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  See if you're actually on track to where you wanted to be. You can ask Monarch's AI assistant anything about your finances. Like, hey, how much should I spend on travel last summer? Can I afford this vacation without touching my savings? You can spot things you wouldn't think about before, like, oh, hey, has my spending gone up or just inflation? I was using pen and paper. Now you can use tools, like a full financial advisor in your pocket and that's called Monarch. So what you want to do is you want to go to monarch.com, use code trading. The first year of Monarch Core is half off at just fifty bucks. That's fifty percent off your first year. Just go to monarch.com with code trading.

• 1:29Haley Sacks?

  Okay, we all love to romanticize being your own boss, but even when you have a team, you still end up being the bookkeeper, the marketing department, and the person rearranging appointments at eleven PM. And that work isn't just annoying, it is expensive. And it's especially taxing for businesses that run on appointments. So if you own a business that takes bookings, this one's for you. Gloss Genius is the system that runs the operations for you behind the scenes. Scheduling, payments, admin handled automatically. Payment processing is a flat rate with zero hidden fees. And check out Rebook's clients on the spot. Clients can book in seconds too, so there's no login or separate app. Necessary, so you actually get more appointments.

• 2:12Haley Sacks?

  A hundred and 25,000 businesses already trust Gloss Genius to earn them more and save them time. Want to try it out for yourself? Go to glossgenius.com and use code FINANCIAL for 50% off your first two months of a premium plan. What do you think is the most egregious wedding ask you've heard of?

• 2:31Speaker 02

  I've heard you can't be pregnant.

• 2:34Haley Sacks?

  You can't be pregnant?

• 2:35Speaker 02

  And I've heard people ask folks to step down because they've gotten pregnant. And I'm like, that's not your friend.

• 2:43Haley Sacks?

  This is Financial Tea.

• 2:47Haley Sacks?

  What's up sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea. This is a podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. And today, we have Ruhaa Mawwali. She is the viral author of I Hope You Elope, A Bridesmaid Survival Guide. But first, let's get into the MDJ Market Report. Okay, our first story in the market report is how expensive that fun has gotten and why Americans are buying it anyways. I feel like every story this year has been so doomsday. It's like everything's more expensive, groceries, housing, insurance, gas, and like it is, all

• 3:29Haley Sacks?

  the data shows that it is. Everyone is stressed about money in this country. But then you see these stories and it's like, couple from Virginia spent nearly $10,000 following the World Cup, or like NBA Finals tickets average over $4,000. And then you like go in your group chat, or you went Instagram and you see that like 10 different people that you know have gone. And this is really confusing for economists, because they used to think that entertainment would be one of the first things that people cut during tough times. But instead, what we're seeing is that people are delaying buying homes, they are keeping their old cars, but they are still saying yes to the World Cup and to the NBA Finals. And honestly, I think it's a sign of the times, because like after years of inflation and layoffs

• 4:11Haley Sacks?

  and uncertainty, these experiences have become emotionally so much more valuable than stuff. And anyone can have stuff. Especially in dupe culture. So if you have an experience that also like gives you leverage when you're talking about what you did, it makes you seem cool. No one remembers the couch that they bought in 2023, but we all remember where we were when Taylor Swift played all too well. Like the era's tour, come on, everyone knew if you went and Wall Street knows it. Like all of the live event stocks are up, like Live Nation is up, Madison Square Garden Sports Group has soared. Investors have realized that people are going to sacrifice a lot more before they sacrifice going to these events and making memories. And here's the thing, I actually am obsessed with spending on experiences. So I don't hate this. I believe money is for living. If it's really

• 4:56Haley Sacks?

  worth it to you, do it. But I just think that live events take YOLO spending to another level because they come with this built in deadline that they only happen once. And that's what's dangerous. Like the World Cup comes around every four years. And when you get that scarcity into your head, it makes it really easy to stop asking, can I afford this? And just start thinking like, who cares? The future is already screwed up. So I think that's where spending on joy can just turn into financial nihilism, which you have to watch out for. Basically, I think yes, go to the World Cup, go to the NBA Finals, invite me if you got an extra ticket. I want to go to Ariana Grande on Sunday, make the memory. But save for it. Don't use a once in a lifetime experience to justify years of payments because the event may only happen once, but that debt is going to show

• 5:40Haley Sacks?

  up every month. Our next story is about engagement rings because today's episode is all about weddings. So I had to go there. And I just want to say from personal experience, I used to want a huge engagement ring. Like I was a terror in fourth grade. I think I learned how to use the internet. I immediately went to the Harry Winston website. I found like the 12 karat diamond ring that they had on there. And I was like, yep, that's what I want. But now I'm like feeling so low key because actually in my heart, what I really want is like a small vintage ring. Like that feels way cooler to me. And honestly, the data explains why. And it's because everyone has a huge ring. They're not cool anymore. And rings are not getting bigger because suddenly everyone is Lauren Sanchez-ing it up and married to a billionaire. It's because the diamond market has seen a huge

• 6:23Haley Sacks?

  price collapse, like one of the biggest price collapses in history, specifically the lab grown diamond market because the price Size of these has fallen roughly 96% from its peak. So basically a one carat lab grown diamond that used to cost thousands now just costs a few hundred dollars. So from a personal finance perspective, this should have been incredible news. In a perfect world, couples would have bought the same ring they always wanted, maybe a one or two carat diamond ring, and saved that money and invested the difference. But of course, we live in the age of celebrity where we're seeing so many diamonds. We want a taste of that life and now they're more affordable. So instead, what's going on is that people are keeping the same budget, but they are just buying a much bigger diamond.

• 7:07Haley Sacks?

  Economists call this the Jevons paradox. And that's when something becomes dramatically cheaper, people don't usually save the money. Instead, they just consume more of it. And once you see the Jevons paradox, you will notice it everywhere. I was thinking about it with super fake designer bags because I used to message with this person on WhatsApp about designer bags that were fake and I would sometimes buy them, but I would never just buy one. If I saw a one $300 fake bag, I'd be like, great, I'm saving money. I'm not buying that $10,000 Chanel bag. But that's not true because then I would buy like a pair of sunglasses and another bag. And suddenly I'd spend almost as much as I would have on like one real designer handbag. And the same thing happens with Prime Day. That's why I always warn you guys against Prime Day.

• 7:50Haley Sacks?

  Basically, any limited time sale that's convincing you that you're saving money by buying more. With most situations, you're not reducing your spending by doing this. You're just increasing your consumption. And look, like I might get shadow banned for this episode because Wall Street absolutely loves when you do this. Like the only thing better than selling you one expensive thing is getting you to buy 20 cheap things because it encourages this habit of consumerism that keeps the flywheel going. But I will just say like, this is a good example of every financial hack sort of coming with a trap. Just because you're saving money on one purchase doesn't make you richer if it gives you permission to spend it somewhere else. That is how people slowly inflate their lifestyles without ever feeling richer. So I will just say the real flex is not buying more because it's cheaper.

• 8:34Haley Sacks?

  The real flex is letting your lifestyle stay the same while your wealth grows. Our final story is also about weddings and it's very controversial. I read an article this week that bride and grooms are asking guests to Venmo them for the cost of their plate. So they're basically are having ticketed events, but they're called weddings. I get it. Weddings are fun, but I firmly believe that if you have to have your guests pay for the wedding, that maybe you shouldn't do the wedding. So I was reading about this more and what I also found was that courthouse weddings are really on the rise and they're sort of being rebranded. Like they used to be more the budget option, but now courthouse weddings are really being seen as sort of chic.

• 9:18Haley Sacks?

  I mean, one of the most chic people that I know got married at a courthouse and she wore a funky hat. Can you imagine? She pulled off a funky hat at her courthouse wedding. Those are two things that are hard to do and she did them effortlessly. Abigail, we're talking about you. So I'll just say that I love this trend, the courthouse trend, not the Venmoing trend. And I feel like they're on two different ends of the spectrum, which is like own your financial reality when you're getting married. You can inherit traditions, but you might not inherit the economy to support it. And I feel like that's what a lot of young people are dealing with now, not to mention the pressure to have these huge weddings on social media. It's not worth starting your wedding with debt. I feel like the coolest thing right now, like the financial trend that I'm the most into is just like not peacocking. I feel like we're post-peacock.

• 9:59Haley Sacks?

  It's just like do things that actually make sense with your budget and don't like overdo things that you can't afford just to seem like you're richer than you are. Who cares? It's way cooler to be in control of your finances. So yeah, I just wanted to talk about that because if you've ever been at a wedding where they asked you to Venmo them, I need to know. Please DM me. That has never happened to me, but I did go to a wedding where there were oyster crackers for dinner and it was a cash bar. So I feel your pain, but you know, I wouldn't have missed it. Okay. Now that I'm all warmed up with my wedding opinions, I do want to bring in our guest for today, Ruhama Mawali, because she is sort of the queen of taking down wedding culture. You will hear more in the interview, but she has a very controversial takes on weddings. Do not ask her to be a bridesmaid because

• 10:41Haley Sacks?

  she went viral for saying that she will not be a bridesmaid again. And she's someone who's just started a lot of conversation around the topic. So I'm really excited for you to hear this one.

• 10:54Haley Sacks?

  You've got a lot of wedding gossip, Rue. Because yeah, you wrote this book. It absolutely popped off and you're sort of like the poster child to saying no to being a bridesmaid.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  I am.

• 11:04Haley Sacks?

  So we have to get into all of this, but first, we always do rapid fire.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:09Haley Sacks?

  So Rue, what are your best and worst purchases that you've ever spent attending a wedding? And how much did each cost?

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Ooh, okay. Worst purchase will always forever be the dresses. Like across the board, there wasn't a single dress that I loved unless I, we just so happened to have the where whatever. And then I got to.

• 11:28Haley Sacks?

  Wear whatever.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Exactly. Um, best purchase across wedding.

• 11:34Haley Sacks?

  You're like, nothing? The ticket home?

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Um, I'm sure, I think honestly, the, the meals and like the dinners and the get togethers that felt communal were really great times. And I would say that the, the boat experience for a bachelorette in Miami was really fun.

• 11:52Haley Sacks?

  And what is the most money that you've ever spent all in attending a wedding?

• 11:56Speaker 02

  It was about 2K for one wedding. And I have to add the caveat that I did not attend the bachelorette for that particular wedding. I didn't go to a bridal shower. So there were definitely things that I tapped out of for either reasons that I couldn't afford it or just time off. But all in was 2K.

• 12:19Haley Sacks?

  So, which actually is normal because on average, people are spending between 1,200 to $2,500 to be a bridesmaid and over $5,000 for these high-end destination weddings.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And mind you, I'm noting that the 2K was with just me agreeing to attend, of course, the wedding, participate where I can, but I also didn't go on an international bachelorette trip. So I'm sure that would have. Hit another 2K.

• 12:45Haley Sacks?

  For sure. Easy.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 12:46Haley Sacks?

  Even though, as we talked about, you are petite and can easily fly in the back of the plane.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Anywhere, right?

• 12:51Haley Sacks?

  Yes, we.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  But the cost is the same.

• 12:53Haley Sacks?

  The cost is the same.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  It does not matter how smaller or how big you are.

• 12:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Rue and I are on different ends of the size spectrum. Me as like a giant.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  How tall are you?

• 13:01Haley Sacks?

  I'm like 5'11" and I wear heels.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  I'm 4'11".

• 13:04Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Oh, my God.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 13:06Haley Sacks?

  We need to be best friends because you know there's no stronger alliance than a really tall girl and a really, and a short girl.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  I'm telling you.

• 13:13Haley Sacks?

  Like, it's, we have.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  We would be at every sample sale being like, go, and then hitting the complete.

• 13:17Haley Sacks?

  Exactly. So people talk about astrological compatibility. We need to talk about height compatibility.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:24Haley Sacks?

  You just mentioned this wedding, though, the one that you spent the most on $2,000.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:28Haley Sacks?

  But you prefaced it by saying that you said no to a lot of things.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:31Haley Sacks?

  You've become the poster child for this of like this critical discourse around wedding guest spending and saying no to weddings, which I don't know why it's so shocking, but you can.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:43Haley Sacks?

  So could you explain a little bit more about this viral moment that got you into this? How'd you have this crown, Rue? It's heavy.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Isn't it crazy? And I, I don't even know if I wanted it or want it. But I will say, I felt like I was just having a normal experience, right? Weddings hit me. I was at that phase where friends were getting married.

• 14:03Haley Sacks?

  How old are you?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  32 now. When it started, I was 27, 28, and happily said yes to my girls, right? No one asked me that I questioned why they asked me, which is very much a conversation in itself where folks are like, I didn't want to be her bridesmaid, but I said yes. And I'm like, what? How?

• 14:24Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Anyways, my wave hit me and while I was navigating it, there were moments where I just felt like autonomy really goes out the window, which is really what the season is about. It's her big day. It's her moment. It's sort of. The way I write about it in the book is like it's a bait and switch, which is it all feels emotionally tied. That's what weddings are and you want to show up for your girl, your bestie, your sister, and then underestimate how much it costs, underestimate what it's asking out of you, beyond of even just the financial bit of it, of time, the emotional labor around it. And I think by the end of it, I was already feeling like, I don't want to do this again.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  And I feel like if I do it again, I might lose a friendship over it. And I think just that thought kind of spoke it into existence and I did end up losing a friendship over it.

• 15:17Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Um, but I

• 15:19Haley Sacks?

  What happened?

• 15:19Speaker 02

  I wrote an article that went viral and it didn't sit well with her, that I wrote the article. And I think

• 15:26Haley Sacks?

  What did you say about her?

• 15:27Speaker 02

  I mean, I ended up talking about all three weddings that I ended up attending. And there was a conversation about hair in it in terms of how we were asked to have our hair. I clearly missed the memo or I misread it and ended up having my hair curly, but not the way she wanted it curly. And I think in the grand scheme of things, I was like, this is what it comes down to. And I think it was a huge miscommunication because for her it was more so of if you had just let me know in the moment that this was making you in any way uncomfortable, I would never put my friend in that position. But because during weddings, everyone stays silent and everyone wants to make

• 16:07Haley Sacks?

  The bride happy.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  The bride happy.

• 16:09Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  It was a lot of staying silent. And for her it was like, why were you staying silent? We're not friends who stay silent with one another. And I'm like, oh, I know, but it's hard to explain what weddings really sort of not only reveal, but the pressure they put around folks who are in the bridal party or the community around her. Because you're just like, I don't want to rain on your parade. And so, once I understood sort of the challenges that I was experiencing, because if I was saying at this point in my life, I'm, I can be vocal, I can sort of have my boundaries up. And in this season, I wasn't able to. I was like, one, I don't want to put myself in this situation again. And then two, I wonder if other folks are experiencing this, right? And so I ended up writing an op ed about it,

• 16:54Speaker 02

  sort of my way of releasing it. Did not expect it to resonate with as many folks as it did.

• 16:59Haley Sacks?

  You went fully viral.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  It went fully viral. And yeah, I think that's sort of what Sort of led the roadmap for a book. And I think the book essentially does what the article sort of misses out on, which is I say no, that's my stance. I'm probably not probably will never be a bridesmaid again.

• 17:19Haley Sacks?

  Well, at this point, no one's asking you, bro. Like, I would be scared.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  You'd be surprised. I have some best friends who probably will attempt to try to ask me.

• 17:25Haley Sacks?

  Wow, they're gonna get you out of retirement.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  I say it in the book, I think in my acknowledgements, where I'm like, the only person who can convince me is my sister. My sister's like, I promise you, I am not your problem. I will never have a bridal party as well. So we're aligned in that. But I realize that not a lot of folks can say no. Right? And so that's what the book offers. It's if you can't fully say no, and you do want to show up, which most of us do want to show up, how can you navigate that in a way where you're not losing your sanity?

• 17:52Haley Sacks?

  But that is very interesting wording, like can't say no, like we could say no. So could we let, it sounds like you've dealt with a few bridezillas. So I wanted to role play in terms of setting these boundaries. If you're one of those people who thinks, okay, I can't say no, you are here, you're the queen of saying no. Can you teach us? So I'm the bride. Brew on the bride, finally. The day has come. Okay. And you're the bridesmaid.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 18:22Haley Sacks?

  And I want you to come on my bachelorette trip to Mallorca. My wedding is in Rome. I'm neither Spanish nor Italian. I just want to have destination events. And I'm not paying for anything, but you have to pay for everything. And we're not that close, but we're close enough that you have to be in my 17 person bridal party.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm gonna preface, has me bridesmaid already said yes to being your bridesmaid?

• 18:50Haley Sacks?

  Yes, I sent you like a dove in the mail with like, a lot of glitter came out. There was a singing telegram. How could you say no?

• 18:58Speaker 02

  So this is specifically for the bachelorette trip?

• 19:00Haley Sacks?

  But back it up. So you're saying the first step is when someone says, will you be my bridesmaid? Instead of just saying, wow, I'm so grateful that you're asking me absolutely yes, take a beat.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Take a beat. That is truly the moment to take a beat. Because what I say is, once you've already said yes, not to say there's not opportunities to then say no to certain things.

• 19:20Haley Sacks?

  It's hard to walk it back.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  It's hard to walk it back, because you didn't essentially disclose any either.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Financial bit you're in, time restraints that you might be on. And so I think early on, if you already have this feeling of this might not be the season where I can afford to be a bridesmaid, or I might not have all the PTO, or

• 19:43Haley Sacks?

  Or maybe I don't want to.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Simply you don't want to because you're not as close and you know what it requires to fully show up for somebody. That is truly when you can, that is the time to pull aside the bride and have that conversation early on.

• 19:54Haley Sacks?

  Okay, so let's do that talk. So I send you the dove in the mail. I'm like so excited. You're my most important friend to be my bridesmaid.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:03Haley Sacks?

  So call me up.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Ring, ring.

• 20:07Haley Sacks?

  Rue, is that you? I'm at the wedding salon. I just tried on 14 dresses.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh.

• 20:13Haley Sacks?

  I hated all of them.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  Oh no.

• 20:14Haley Sacks?

  I'll send you pics.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Okay, send me pics. So what else is happening around wedding?

• 20:19Haley Sacks?

  Um, well, I haven't talked to my fiance in like six days because we're getting a prenup. I want everything.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  That checks.

• 20:25Haley Sacks?

  And yeah, I'm just like so excited for the bachelorette. I just booked this like huge villa. We're gonna have private chef every night.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  That sounds exciting.

• 20:34Haley Sacks?

  And only have Christian Dior is doing the bridesmaid dresses.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 20:38Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  You were going all out.

• 20:39Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:41Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  So have you decided who you're gonna have on your bridal party?

• 20:46Haley Sacks?

  Well, I mean, obviously you.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:48Haley Sacks?

  And then my sister.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Listen, I, I love this. I am so excited. You know, I will be there for the big day.

• 20:55Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  I know I have just been in transitions with my job currently and I am still figuring out what's next for me. So if it's okay with you, tell me a little bit about what you think it's gonna cost to be a bridesmaid. And then I'm happy if I can take a day or two just to see if financially this is something that I could take on. You know, I love you regardless. I'll be at the wedding. I just want to make sure that this is something that I can afford right now to show up for you in the full capacity that you deserve and you want.

• 21:26Haley Sacks?

  Okay, pause.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:27Haley Sacks?

  That was really good. And we're gonna get back into it, but I wanna like note a few things.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:32Haley Sacks?

  I love that you gave your why.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 21:34Haley Sacks?

  You gave the reason why.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 21:36Haley Sacks?

  Um, and so if you're not in a job transition, can we give other whys that are good? Maybe like,

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean,

• 21:41Haley Sacks?

  What are, like, give us some examples.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Life is always lifing for a lot of us, right?

• 21:46Haley Sacks?

  But if you call a bride up and you say, "Life is lifing," they're gonna laugh in your face.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely. That's what I'm saying. So it has to be based in something concrete.

• 21:54Haley Sacks?

  In a reality, you need a detail.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  You need a detail, whether that is,

• 21:57Haley Sacks?

  Dog is sick.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  I'm handling family,

• 22:01Haley Sacks?

  Family shit is happening.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Family shit is happening right now. I truly write, and this is where you know,

• 22:08Haley Sacks?

  You need a specific.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  I also say this really comes down to what that relationship with the bride already is, right? If this is someone that truly knows what's happening in life for you, that is the part where you then disclose, "Hey, you know, we've been talking about where I'm at."

• 22:23Haley Sacks?

  X, Y, Z, yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  X, Y, Z.

• 22:24Haley Sacks?

  But what if nothing's happening and it's just too expensive?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  That's, I feel like too expensive is, I'm like, we are in a recession. We are not in a long

• 22:32Haley Sacks?

  No, no, I get that. Like, wages are up 7%.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  But if you disclose to your friend, right, let alone best friend, that's truly who should be asking you to be their bridesmaid, and you're telling them you cannot financially afford that at this time, and they can't respect that or honor that,

• 22:50Haley Sacks?

  That ain't your friend.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  That's not your friend.

• 22:51Haley Sacks?

  That's not your friend. I agree.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  And I truly think that no friend, let alone community per member, should require you to spend more than you have, right? Like, we are not going into debt for one another. Like, that is not what friendship is. That's not what community is. And so I think there's definitely an honest conversation around that. I do think that if this is someone that you truly consider a friend and wanna continue having relationship with, giving alternatives. "I can't afford to fully show up in this capacity of being a bridesmaid, but I'd love for you and I to have a spa day. I'd love to show up in other ways that I can help."

• 23:28Haley Sacks?

  Wait, wait, let's go back to our call. Okay, so you're, we're unpausing, cuz I want you to give me all of the other options.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:36Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  I know, I know. Listen.

• 23:39Haley Sacks?

  It's gonna be eight, $4,000.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  And I think it really just comes down to the cost and knowing that you love your extravagant stuff. But listen, how about I will support where I can logistically, so you feel like I'm there with you in the journey.

• 23:54Haley Sacks?

  So nice.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  I'd love to do a spa day together, one-on-one. I'll cover that and I would still be at the day of the wedding, will show up early so I can be there to support you when you're getting all dolled up. I just don't think I can financially afford all that comes with being a bridesmaid at this time and what you wouldn't want and need. And I want you to be able to get all that. If you feel like there's any financial support from your end that you're able to help out with, maybe we can have a different conversation. If not, no pressure. I know you're already taking on a lot on the wedding, so just think on it. Hear me out and see how you're feeling.

• 24:30Haley Sacks?

  Okay, pause again. I love that you made it that it is, are you gonna help me pay for this? And I also love that you gave her the space to say, let's talk about this in a few days.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you want it to really feel like a dialogue, right? This is not, I think what people get weary about is the minute you say no, the friendship is over, right? That's what a lot of people have.

• 24:53Haley Sacks?

  Bound, why are people so weird about boundaries, especially financial boundaries? It's like we have this.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Talk about it with friends, right?

• 24:59Haley Sacks?

  But also because I think that money is, I mean, money obviously is this value system. And so we think that if we don't have as much money as someone, then we have like less value. So we are embarrassed by that and that's why we peacock and try and like look richer than we are.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  And I think there's something tied about just money and, and relationship and friendship. And I say that to say, before we get into the money chapter in the book, we get into the friendship chapter. And I, the one thing that I say is, you have to truly assess where you are at as a bridesmaid with this bride in the season you're being asked to be a bridesmaid, right? Because it requires so much financially and time commitment wise, you have to say this is truly one of your ride or die. Friends and sometimes people get caught up in, I'm part of this friend group, right? And because she's asked so and so and so and so, she feels obligated to ask the rest of us.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  And you know, you're one of those and you and her individually don't have that close of a relationship. I'm like, but you're going to be required to pay the same amount everyone else in that group is. And they might be willing to spend that for her because they have that close knit relationship. But if you don't, that's when resentment builds up, right? And so that's where boundaries need to be addressed early on. Because yes, she might have you as a filler space, right? Or a filler bridesmaid and she may never disclose that because who does? And she feels it, you feel it, but you've now just agreed to kind of take on that journey and take on all the costs. So I really address that, understanding where you are in that friendship. And I say it in the book as well, brides.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  If you are asking someone to be your bridesmaid, please go through this, right? It like, is this someone that you say you're super close to? Or is this because your aunt has required you to include a cousin, right? And I think it comes down, there's essentially two analogies I use in the book. To start that chapter, I use essentially something that happens across a lot of ethnic cultures, specifically Nigerian culture, which is

• 27:07Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you were explaining the Nigerian wedding culture and

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:10Haley Sacks?

  Girl, they do not come to play. It's a season. It's not a wedding.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  I love it. It's called spring.

• 27:15Haley Sacks?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  Essentially, there's a moment when the bride and groom are on the reception dance floor. And it is a moment where the family celebrates them and celebrates the union by throwing cash, right? And it is the moment where folks start pulling wads of twenties. It could be ones, it could be hundreds.

• 27:33Haley Sacks?

  It's like a strip club.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Listen, and it is a moment to just encourage dancing. And in that moment, no one is checking who put in, put on a dollar bill versus who put on a $20 bill. And so I think that moment of giving really comes back to this notion that we will give and we will give graciously when it's not

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Obligated, right? And when it feels-

• 27:57Haley Sacks?

  But also in relationship to what we can give.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 28:00Haley Sacks?

  Like I was-

• 28:00Speaker 02

  To the people that we want to give, right? But the minute obligation sort of sits around it, I think people get very sticky on the conversation of finances and spending.

• 28:09Haley Sacks?

  But I also think that like so much of spending is relative. And what's hard about bachelorette trips is that now, especially with social media, it's become so connected to like peacocking. I want to talk about how like pop culture and influencer culture has really distorted the-

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 28:24Haley Sacks?

  -reality here. Like I was thinking about Lauren Sanchez's bachelorette, which she spent $670,000 on. She paid for everything. It was in Paris. Kim Kardashian, Katy Perry, they all brought their glam teams. They stayed at, you know, Cheval Blanc, the most expensive hotel in Paris. And when you actually run the cost of what $670,000 feels like spending for Lauren Sanchez to a normal person, it's $4.50. So her paying for that bachelorette was literally like not, I mean, in Brooklyn, a coffee's $7. It's not even buying a coffee. So, you know, you compare yourself to that.

• 29:06Haley Sacks?

  You maybe compare yourself to acquired styles bachelorette, which went super viral, but was paid for completely by that swan beauty AI mirror, whatever the hell it is.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:16Haley Sacks?

  And, you know, all the girls that went on that didn't have to pay for the flight. They didn't have to pay for the villa. Of course, they paid for like their outfits and all that stuff. But, you know, the everyday bridesmaid and bride is watching this stuff on TikTok and they don't see the influencer contract with all these brands that's getting it for free. They don't see the billionaire bank account. They just see the aesthetic and they're thinking like, oh, this is what a bachelorette party is supposed to look like now.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  And it's repeatable.

• 29:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. So like, how are normal women supposed to compete with this standard that's being financed by either corporate market-

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Brand sponsors as well. And I think that's, that's- The content influencer culture that's sort of taken a hold of of social media for a few years now, which is you you see it, it's you want to replicate it in some capacity, but underestimate what those costs are, right? And I think social media is the new Pinterest of it all, in the sense that folks are going and they're seeing their favorite influencers, celebrity, have these incredible weddings, bachelorette moments, and want to be able to repeat that. And I'm like, did you know that they did not pay for most of that? It

• 30:30Speaker 02

  was those gift bags with every beauty product that you could think of was either gifted, or it was brand sponsored. And I think that sort of sets the tone for what the rest of our country is is sort of tapping into. And I also write about how America is the outlier in all this, where a lot of

• 30:51Haley Sacks?

  That's so interesting.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  cultures, for the most part, the bride is paying for her bridal party.

• 30:57Speaker 03

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• 31:27Speaker 04

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• 31:56Haley Sacks?

  If you're the bride, what's the maximum financial burden that you should place on your friends before you sort of cross the line into being a bridezilla? I will preface this by saying, I've never been married and I've actually never been a bridesmaid, Rue.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Congratulations.

• 32:12Haley Sacks?

  But I've been a sister of a bride.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:14Haley Sacks?

  And I've been in many bridal parties. I've just never like walked down the aisle.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:18Haley Sacks?

  But for my sister's bachelorette, I'm obviously Mrs. Dow Jones. I was very conscious financially, especially my sister's a doctor. All of her best friends are doctors and they have so much medical debt. And so I was like, okay, if we're gonna do this, she wanted to do it in Mexico. I was like, we have to pay for the villa. So we paid for the villa and the villa had a private chef. And so it was like, all the meals and the housing was covered, but they paid for their, we split the boat day, you have to do boat day. And then we split the, they had to pay for their, their flights and maybe like the, the cabs to the villa.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  But you all were able to offset some costs.

• 32:57Haley Sacks?

  We offset a lot of costs. And before we went on the trip, and this is what I always tell people to do, is send an anonymous survey of how much people can afford and also make a budget for it and overestimate the budget because no one's ever upset if something is cheaper.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  But you are the anomaly, right?

• 33:16Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  In this whole case scenario.

• 33:18Haley Sacks?

  But you are the anomaly too of saying, no, so we have to normal, we have to talk about this.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Very much so. I think normalizing, and I've seen a lot of brides who now send these Google forms, right? Bridal party is able to anonymously say, hey, here's my budget. Yes, I'm willing to do an international bachelorette trip. No, I'd prefer something more local. My thing is how much, I'm also now posing the question back to the culture and saying, are we sticking to these after the fact, right? Because I've seen so many case scenarios and I've heard where, yes, bride is considered up until a point. And then once the, the wheels start turning, it all kind of goes out the window, right?

• 33:57Haley Sacks?

  Because they want to have the big, bad bachelorette and they're pissed that their friends don't want to pay everything.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  This is where. The people pleasing comes into it, right?

• 34:06Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  And I think the group dynamic portion that I also wanted to hit on is, once the wheels start turning, right, there will always be someone in the group chat that's like, okay, yes, we agreed to a private boat day, but let's add a private chef on it now, right? And then everyone cosigns it.

• 34:23Haley Sacks?

  Oh, they're getting more and more.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  And now you're essentially, and they sort of guise it under the whole, it's her day. Like, we want to get her everything she wants, right? And you don't even know if that conversation is happening on the backend where, let's say, a bride has let maid of honor know she does want something additional for the bachelorette. And then now in the separate group chat, maid of honor is like, let's add this for her, right? And it just ends up being this essentially revolving door of a meter of where you're like, I thought it was going to cost me this much, and now it's costing me much more than I expected. And sometimes resentment picks up when no one on essentially the decision-making factor of either bride or maid of honor is saying, can everyone afford this? Is everyone okay with this?

• 35:06Speaker 02

  And even then, the group dynamic of it all, if six folks have already said yes, you can't be the only one to now tap out, right?

• 35:12Haley Sacks?

  That's why if you do it anonymously, I think.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  That's essentially one of the questions that I answer in the book, which is like, how did we get here? How did weddings balloon to what they are today?

• 35:21Haley Sacks?

  So what's the answer?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it's, I had to go through the whole course of history, but at this point, it is social media, right? I think it is very much a Gen Z millennial issue. I truly hope that this book has a bookshelf of five years, that next generation's not picking it up and, and feeling like they have to essentially fall under this prescriptive idea of what being a bride's maid, being in a wedding looks like. And I really would say that I think there we are reaching this moment where people are rethinking what a wedding can look like. I mean, there's research behind the fact that folks who spend the most on their weddings are more likely to get divorced.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  But I truly do think that if we rethink what a wedding can look like, this would kind of resolve all of it, right? If celebrating your union looks like, I don't know, like us swimming at the lake, right? A day of just having folks over at a house, and that's what the union looks like.

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• 36:58Speaker 03

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• 37:27Haley Sacks?

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• 38:11Haley Sacks?

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• 38:34Haley Sacks?

  What do you think is the most egregious wedding ask you've heard of? I know you've heard some crazy stories connected to your work. You're now like the poster child, breaking the silence on the wedding industrial complex. So tell us some crazy ones.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Oof, it all, most of it really comes down to the dress, but.

• 38:52Haley Sacks?

  Which is so ugly.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  You can't be pregnant.

• 38:55Haley Sacks?

  You can't be pregnant.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Heard people ask folks to step down because they got pregnant. And I'm like, that's not your friend.

• 39:02Haley Sacks?

  They don't want someone to walk down the aisle pregnant. They don't want you to ruin the bachelorette with your pregnancy.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  We should be getting down and dancing at the fact that, you know, there's now another thing to celebrate in this because I'm like, if that's your friend, that's how it should be processed. Like, we are celebrating, sad you can't drink, but we'll turn up on the other side. And I'm so glad that the little one gets to be a part of the celebration with us, right? Not a, because then now you just, it chucks it down to aesthetics. Clearly that's what matters to you, not this friendship, not love. Clearly what matters is aesthetics for you at this point. And that is a rude awakening and that is not your friend.

• 39:43Haley Sacks?

  So literally a bridal pregnancy clause, that is so crazy. And I've actually heard that too. I knew about this girl, Chloe, who got married a little bit later than all of her friends and was so fricking pissed that people were pregnant. And it was a whole thing. So this is real.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  I think we've got to like, we gotta have shame, like shame.

• 40:02Haley Sacks?

  We have shame, but people, that's the other thing is like, when people become brides, it really, it gives them too much power. It's too much.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  It becomes a hierarchy and it actually translates even into the bridesmaid group dynamics of it all, because I have heard just in interviewing folks where folks felt so close to the bride up until the wedding and they felt like. Bride had somehow sort of created this hierarchy across her friends of who is going to stand next to her, who is going to get prioritized and things.

• 40:38Haley Sacks?

  It's so middle school.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Who she was spending more time with.

• 40:41Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  I'm like, it is a moment where essentially sometimes it becomes a friendship across your life, right? If you have a childhood best friend, a family member, your work wifey. But I think it is very much on the bride also to make sure that everybody showing up.

• 41:00Haley Sacks?

  For your host.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  In that same, yeah, you're a host.

• 41:02Haley Sacks?

  Like you should be making, yeah, feeling warm.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Especially if, let's say, you haven't talked to so and so in so many years and you know that she's not understanding the inside joke. I'm like, there has to be a lot of considerate, knowing the fact that it is very much an ask that comes with a price tag.

• 41:20Haley Sacks?

  Oh my God, a hundred percent. And you should try and offset it in any way that you can. Like, I know right now, obviously, like recession, like people, it's so hard, like the cost of living is so high, wages, but like, I don't know, I've always felt like if you're going to ask something of people financially, do the, don't do that unless you can offset it a bit. And it's okay not to do it, or do it in a much cheaper way.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 41:44Haley Sacks?

  Like, I really believe that. But.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  I'm, we're so aligned on that. There is a moment where I say.

• 41:49Haley Sacks?

  And that's why I did it with my sister's wedding, which like I know was like a privilege that we were able to like pay for the villa or whatever. But I'm like, then we wouldn't have done it there because knowing the financial situation of people who were coming, it would have been so inappropriate to have asked all these people who are literally working.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  I love that you said inappropriate because other folks would be like, oh, she said inappropriate. And I'm like, no, that's true.

• 42:11Haley Sacks?

  No, it's inappropriate. It's inappropriate. Um, it is.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  It's, I put a, like, I think it's bolded in the book where I say in the, in the dress chapter, if a bride is asking her bridesmaids to wear an exact dress and there is no room and space for them to pick a silhouette or whatever it is that they would feel comfortable in on their.

• 42:32Haley Sacks?

  Body, yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  It is on the bride to pay for that dress.

• 42:35Haley Sacks?

  Oh, I, and I think you gotta pay for the hair and makeup too.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  To pay for that dress. You cannot tell me to go purchase this link. And know that I may never wear it again and.

• 42:46Haley Sacks?

  Can I also just say, like, I think that all of this is lame. Like, it's like, be interesting. Like, don't like, like, I want to get married so badly, but I also don't want to make it my personality at all. Let's be punk rock about it. You have in the book so many interesting stats and like, research. Somewhere you said that the more money spent on a wedding, the less likely it is to last, which was very interesting to me. So I would be curious to hear which wedding stats sort of shocked you the most in your research.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Ooh, I think, I mean, just on average, how many times folks are being asked to be a bridesmaid is averaged out to five to six, right?

• 43:25Haley Sacks?

  That's so much. That's a Roth IRA.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Which is nothing. When I can tell you on the flip side, a lot of people that I was interviewing, I was hearing double digits. And for me, sort of that, I couldn't make sense of it, right? I'm like, you are telling me that there were 10, 15 folks in your life that you had to say yes to, right? In terms of showing up in that full capacity of what being a bridesmaid is, because how many of us can show up for more than, let's say, and that's where I was really going back to research on, in terms of four to five folks in a given season is probably the capacity any human person has to show up and really love on and.

• 44:12Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you can't have 12 best friends. Like, that's insane. It's a tier, but the tier is not that big.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  And I say.

• 44:18Haley Sacks?

  How many, how many best friends do you think you really comfortably keep? I think four.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Four to five.

• 44:22Haley Sacks?

  And like, the fifth is sort of like, you've been friends forever, you love them to death, but you live in different places. And like, you know, you pick up the phone and you have a two hour convo once in a while. Yeah.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Have you been a bridesmaid 10 times?

• 44:32Haley Sacks?

  No, that's insane. So that's why they need you, Rue, because we need to know, that's why it went so viral, because it's like, people didn't even realize that they could say no to it. There, it's like this, you're blowing people's minds.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  And I think before the no probably landed a lot. Harder because the ask wasn't as what it as what it's become now, but because of social media, because of brand and influencer culture and what people are digesting, right? Online of all that can come with it. I think the upkeep is so much that at this point it is, I can't expect anybody to be shocked when someone says, I can't afford to be a bridesmaid. Of course, it's costing you two to 3,000 per wedding to be a bridesmaid.

• 45:16Haley Sacks?

  And that's what people should look at it more as. It's like that number amount versus just like the emotional implication and all of this other stuff.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  And it already costs to attend, right? Like, let's just be real on that.

• 45:27Haley Sacks?

  So much money to attend.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  And I think people forget about that. I'm like, it's never just one wedding and one season. And like, it is a revolving door.

• 45:35Haley Sacks?

  Like, I'm going to a wedding in September in Ojai. And, you know, the Strait of Hormuz has made those flight prices really high. I'm gonna be, you know, 511 of me just like shoved in the back of coach, like praying for the best on the flight. And, you know, then I gotta get the car to the thing. And it's like, that's gonna be $2,000.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 45:58Haley Sacks?

  Hundred percent.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  And that's one wedding.

• 46:00Haley Sacks?

  What about gifting?

• 46:01Speaker 02

  I have such a firm stance on it. If you are being asked to be a bridesmaid, a bride should not expect you to also have a gift.

• 46:10Haley Sacks?

  What about if you're a guest to a destination wedding, but you're not in the bridal party?

• 46:14Speaker 02

  I think at that point, it is on the bride and groom to send out a memo from the jump when it is a destination wedding. You all who plan on flying out for us, that is plenty. We are not doing a registry. But if you want to, you know, contribute anything.

• 46:29Haley Sacks?

  To charity.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  To charity anonymously, or whatever it is. Here's the link.

• 46:33Haley Sacks?

  Go for it. I love that. So we don't have to give gifts if we're going somewhere far. And you don't have to give a gift if you're being a bridesmaid. I think that's correct.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Something for her. Great.

• 46:42Haley Sacks?

  So I love the advice that you gave on setting boundaries in your Modern Love interview. But I'm curious if you have any additional, more financial driven advice to add like as addendums to those points?

• 46:54Speaker 02

  I mean, I say it, it's. I made it also, the budget. Look at it, right? Like, go through it, write down all the numbers of what you think it's going to cost, what you actually have to spend. And I do think that people should probably, in their early, mid 20s, start saving up for weddings across the board. Like, I think there should be a savings account specifically for weddings. Whether you are attending as a guest, whether it is you participating in a bridal party, I think there really should, people should consider having a savings account for that.

• 47:34Haley Sacks?

  That's really smart, having an automated deposit into a high-yield savings account. But I think something that we just, I'm going to wrap up by saying that a wedding is a want, not a need. Put your own oxygen mask on first and don't be afraid to say no. And also, like, you can say no, even if, like, you're in a good place financially and this is not your priority, because it's still money that you have to spend.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  And it's not always a hard no, right? It could be a no, but I'd love to do.

• 47:59Haley Sacks?

  It could be a soft, yes. It could be a, I'm getting ready with you, no. It could be a, but I want to do this with you, no, I got it.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 48:06Haley Sacks?

  Well, Ruhama, this has been so amazing.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  No, this has been great.

• 48:11Haley Sacks?

  I just really love your perspective and you really are empowering us all to have financial boundaries socially, which I think is so hard, but important to do. And I feel like the best lesson that we learned from you is just to stand in your freaking power and be unapologetic.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 48:29Haley Sacks?

  And don't say sorry for knowing where the line is.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  That is a life lesson for me, to not say, continue to say sorry.

• 48:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, don't say sorry. I love it. All right, well, stay rich. I know you are.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 48:49Speaker 06

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