Richard Gadd - On Shame, Sexuality and Success

Richard Gadd is the creative talent behind Baby Reindeer - the Netflix show which won six Primetime Emmys, two Golden Globes and garnered 84.5 million views within its first 45 days. Gadd began in stand-up, and by 2016 he’d won a Perrier Award at the Edinburgh Fringe. His work became known for its compulsive storytelling, blending dark comedy with a kind of philosophical kink for asking audiences the most uncomfortable questions. Now Gadd returns with Half Man, a six-part drama co-production between HBO and the BBC, which Gadd created, wrote, executive produced and stars in. In this episode we talk through his childhood, how it felt to be abruptly catapulted into being the most googled man on the planet following the release of Baby Reindeer and the complexity of identity and sexuality. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 03:13 Fame and Self Worth 05:37 Writing Dark Truths 06:52 Baby Reindeer Explosion 08:00 Becoming Ruben 09:40 Half Man Meaning 10:57 Workaholism Origins 23:58 Family Support After Trauma 24:30 Comedy Meets Abuse Healing 26:13 Rebuking Shame 27:51 Fame And Re Triggering 29:12 Stubbornness And Casting Martha 33:03 Sexuality Beyond Labels 36:15 Grudges Empathy Forgiveness 40:13 Athlete Failure And Closing 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: I never wanted fame. I just liked the idea that one day I would make a piece of art that was culturally important because then maybe I would learn to like myself. It doesn't matter your intelligence, where you come from, your upbringing, anything… it’s about the hours you put into it. Hard work trumps everything. I think actually that we have but scratched the surface of sexuality in a way... there are so many complications to it. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: You can watch Half Man on BBC iPlayer every week Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Stephen Merchant - the actor, writer and director on turning 50, failure in stand-up and what he learned from Ricky Gervais when he co-wrote The Office: swap.fm/l/Lta5mlFbVnPHyFb8R1n2 Phoebe Waller-Bridge - the creator of Fleabag talks about ambition, doubt and creating bold work: swap.fm/l/gTCOCJUmXX9t22mTABSa 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Elizabeth and Richard answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] _________________________________________________________________________ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I even say like date too. By the way, I work so much. Like, I really, really work a lot. And you should really know that. I think it's always a shock, but I actually think like we have but scratched like the surface of sexuality in a way. Like, I think there's so many complications to it, you know? I would say I get about where I was sleeping at.

• 0:19Elizabeth Day?

  You're like Margaret Thatcher.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:20Elizabeth Day?

  That's the first time that's ever been said about you. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes every failure can teach us something in the fullness of time. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode.

• 0:43Elizabeth Day?

  Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me. Ernesta makes designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home.

• 1:23Elizabeth Day?

  I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing. And Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernestacom and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernestacom. Richard Gad was 34 when he became really, really famous. Baby Reindeer, the seven-episode Netflix series he adapted from an award-winning Edinburgh one-man show, was a global hit of such magnitude when it was released in April 2024 that Gad briefly became the most Googled man on earth.

• 2:07Elizabeth Day?

  A visit to a supermarket turned surreal when he saw his face staring out of the front page of a tabloid newspaper under the headline, "Richard Gad's Struggle to Cope with Fame."

• 2:19Elizabeth Day?

  The strangeness of the moment was compounded perhaps by the autobiographical darkness of his subject matter: repressed trauma, sexual identity, stalking and mental illness. The show won him six primetime Emmys, two Golden Globes and garnered 84.5 million views within its first 45 days. Gad has long been interested in the complexity and struggle of understanding the self. Growing up in a village in Fife, he was bullied at school but found solace in drama. He studied English literature and theatre studies at the University of Glasgow, where he began performing stand-up. By 2016, he'd won a Perrier Award at the Edinburgh Fringe.

• 3:03Elizabeth Day?

  His work became known for its compulsive storytelling, blending dark comedy with a kind of philosophical kink for asking audiences the most uncomfortable questions. Now Gad returns with Half Man, a six-part drama co-production between HBO and the BBC. Half Man tells the story of two brothers, played by Gad and Jamie Bell over several decades, exploring the knotty bonds of trauma, the long legacy of violence and the intense fragility and fear at the heart of male relationships. Gad created, wrote and exec produced.

• 3:43Elizabeth Day?

  But despite his success, he insists that "I never wanted fame, I just liked the idea that one day I would make a piece of art that was culturally important, because then maybe I would learn to like myself." Richard Gad, welcome to How To Fail.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Thank you, it's lovely to be here, thank you. Thanks for that introduction, that was beautifully, beautifully done, I thought.

• 4:08Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, thank you. Well, your work means a lot to me.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you.

• 4:12Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm really thrilled that you're here.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 4:15Elizabeth Day?

  And you have a way of speaking in interviews that conveys these really profound truths in these kind of soundbites. And that idea of wanting to create something that would make you like yourself, I so relate to. And I just wonder if I can ask with a very easy, straightforward question, Richard Gad, how much do you like yourself now?

• 4:40Speaker 00

  It's an interesting one, because I hear it back and I think... When you said that, I guess I got a bit of a sort of like an internal jolt in a way of being like, oh, it's sort of, I guess it didn't quite work out that way in the sense that even though I know I did make a sort of culturally impactful piece of art, I have kind of learned since Baby Ranger came out, I suppose, that, you know, the journey for, I suppose, solace does come from the inside, from within in a lot of ways. And I think if you do look for sort of external answers to internal pressures, it never really quite pays off that way, I think. But I'm still very proud that I did make a piece of art like that.

• 5:19Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And also I wonder if there's part of you that feels the internal discomfort is what is the engine for creation. So if you cure yourself of everything, then there's no more creativity. Do you worry about that?

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like I'm damned either way, almost. But yeah, I do, I do sometimes question that. And I certainly think like both the shows, you know, and indeed all my shows have kind of been born out of a sort of quite tormented place, I suppose. And yeah, I do sometimes question that. I often question like whether, you know, because sometimes like people have such bodies of work. And as they get older, they seem to, I'm not going to use any examples, but like certain artists seem to, their work detaches from the public in a way. And it's not as resonant as their earlier work. And I've always questioned whether that's like comfort. They've, they've arrived at a certain comfort in their life because of their success, because of their fame, because of their potential wealth, all these kinds of things.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  I do often question, does their art start to peter a little bit because they're now comfortable, they're happy in a way? So it's that kind of existential question of whether an artist needs to suffer in order to do good work. And I honestly don't know, but I guess it's just always been born out of my suffering in a way, if that makes sense. If that's not too dark.

• 6:36Elizabeth Day?

  No, it's a great place to kick off.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:39Elizabeth Day?

  I just wanted to say something about the quality of your work because you do tackle these dark subjects. And yet they are so compulsively conveyed that as a viewer, I cannot stop myself from watching. And I don't know how you do that, but are there ever moments that you worry this is going to be too much?

• 7:02Speaker 00

  I don't necessarily set out to be shocking. In fact, I definitely don't. I just think like, I'm firm of this belief almost in a way that you sort of don't choose your writing style or what you want to write about it. It sort of chooses you. And I suppose because I've, I guess I've grown up with a lot of confusion and inconsistency and identity crises and all these things, that that I suppose gives birth to work that is innately, I guess, complicated or challenging. I think as long as you you tell a story correctly, you can kind of be as shocking as you want, but as long as it's not shock for shock's sake. I think that's what actually leads to turn off television more than kind of thoughtful shock, if that makes sense, or a building towards something which is shocking in a way

• 7:45Speaker 00

  that is thoughtful and character and character developed and all these kinds of things. I, I think where shock really falls down is where it's clearly just put in there to shock.

• 7:55Elizabeth Day?

  Were you surprised by the global scale of how popular Baby Rain Deer was? Or did you always suspect that so many of us are grappling with so much trauma that there would be a degree of resonance there?

• 8:12Speaker 00

  It's a great question. I mean, I, I think the the sheer level of it surprised me, like the fact that it blew up in the way that it did and the fact that it was so quick and so sudden and then and that I went from sort of being able to walk to the shops one day and then it coming with a thousand complications, literally the next day. I mean, it came on the Thursday and by Friday I felt like everything had changed. It was that sheer level of acceleration took me off guard, but I never want to kind of sit here and be like, oh, I just didn't know. I really believed in it and I believed in it. I believed that it was good, that it was different, that it was kind of tonally, kind of like something we hadn't seen before, but I couldn't have anticipated what happened. I mean, stuff like Emmys never even came into my head like

• 8:56Speaker 00

  at all, because I almost didn't think that that was even possible in this country for starts. But so there was a level above where I thought it would go, but I did believe in it enough to think.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  It would hopefully be something.

• 9:10Elizabeth Day?

  You physically transformed yourself for your role in Half Man. Was that also deliberate because you wanted to distance how recognised you were from your baby reindeer self?

• 9:25Speaker 00

  I knew in order for people to buy me as Reuben, I needed to get away from Donnie Dunn in almost every single way I could. I was 68.8 kilograms when I shot baby reindeer. So I was rake thin, you know, and I intensely like lost weight to do that. And I wanted to feel vulnerable in my body and slight, and I wanted to feel young and youthful in my body and everything. And so I knew I needed to do 180 for Reuben. And I was 110 kilograms at my heaviest when I shot Half Man. So a huge, huge difference. I was aware that baby reindeer was so ubiquitous that the people might struggle to see past Donnie Dunn. Therefore, I needed to change everything, my size, my voice, my beard.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  I grew a big beard, my hairstyle, everything. And I needed to, I needed to transform. It's hard enough if you're just, your job is a sole actor on something to kind of transform. But doing everything else alongside it was a huge commitment.

• 10:23Elizabeth Day?

  So the character of Reuben in Half Man is chilling and powerful and sinister and manipulative and also charismatic and intoxicating. And you've made the point before that something can't be toxic unless at first it's intoxicating, which I thought was so profound. And you do, I mean, you are utterly chilling in the role, Richard. So well done. You've nailed the transformation.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Appreciate that. It's a big relief. Thank you.

• 10:50Elizabeth Day?

  And Half Man tells the story of Reuben's relationship with his sort of brother from another mother, Niall. Why is it called Half Man? Because originally it was called something else, wasn't it?

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Originally it was. I mean, originally, I think I was sort of floundering for a title and like a press release ran out and I just scribbled something down and it didn't really mean much of anything. And I sort of, and then it stuck for ages. And I was like, oh dear, I better do something about this title. But when Half Man came, it felt, it felt right. And I, it just felt so right for the project. It has so multi-reason, I suppose, the title. I never usually like to say particularly, like, this is what the title means, because I sometimes think the best way of leaving sort of art is people questioning why, why something's been done that way. You could take it in so many ways. It's, it can be about how a lot of men just feel incomplete

• 11:45Speaker 00

  as men. You know, you can take it as the fact they both need each other to feel complete. And I think that's the best kind of way to, to do art, I hope, or I think is, is to, is to leave people pondering a little bit.

• 11:58Elizabeth Day?

  Congratulations, because it must have been so hard in many ways to follow up. And I know that you did them back to back. You did Baby Reindeer and you went straight into Half Man.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:07Elizabeth Day?

  And that actually brings us on to your first failure.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:10Elizabeth Day?

  Because your first failure, as you put it, is failure to prioritise anything but work.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, without doubt. I mean, even talking about that, I mean, it was, I remember it was the 13th of December, I'm trying to get my dates, 2023, I think, when I finished Baby Reindeer. And Half Man was a project that I knew I wanted to return to next. I know the BBC were very keen to get started on it. And I remember finishing Baby Reindeer. It was a sound mix. It was very late on the 13th. And then the next morning at 8am, I went into the office, had a meeting and started writing Half Man. Literally like, less than 24 hours, I turned the other direction and started working on the next project. And

• 12:56Speaker 00

  I think this time I'm definitely going to take a break. But television is so intense. Doing two back to back like this in such a short space of time has made me realise that that is, that is a big failure in my life, for sure.

• 13:11Elizabeth Day?

  When did that obsession with work start?

• 13:15Speaker 00

  I've always had a sort of obsessive, obsessive mind, an obsessive sort of.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  You know, like if something, even even from a young age, even like even tiny tiny kid, if I if I like wrestling figures, I collect them en masse, you know, and become completely immersed in like wrestling figures or boglins or I think Pokemon cards at one stage, Beanie Babies, all the rest of it, like obsessive, throw myself into everything to a huge degree. And then when it came to sort of school, I'm not saying I was like a like the smartest kid in the class, but I worked so, so hard at school. And I always remember even my standard grades, when things I knew were getting serious or when things had mattered for the future, I remember knowing in a way that, oh, this stuff matters, this in the future,

• 14:02Speaker 00

  this this counts for something and really putting myself through my own sort of revision, as you call it, I suppose. And to the point where my friends were like, you're mad, you're working too much. So even even back at school, I felt like I was a pretty ferocious worker. I went to uni and I remember I went to like a state comprehensive school and I went to uni and I remember first thing I felt when I went there was like a real intimidation. I think a lot of like very, very smart sort of private school kids who who kind of, you know, had a lot of, who were well versed in sort of independent thinking and all this kind of stuff that I would be in tutorials and I'd be like, oh, God, oh, God, I, I,

• 14:43Speaker 00

  I don't, I feel like I'm behind here. And I always remember I kind of struggled through my first few years of university, like not getting the grades I should have and feeling, you know, like just struggling, like really, really struggling. I remember like taking a summer off because in Scotland, you do a kind of dummy year, a couple of dummy years before it actually comes towards your degree. And I remember the summer before everything I did counted towards my degree. I took that summer off, I stayed in Glasgow, all my friends moved back home, went out, went abroad, and I went to the library and I, I, Read all these, these books on writing essay. I almost went back to basics over the summer because I was like, I'm doing something wrong here. And I started to, I worked all

• 15:25Speaker 00

  the way through the summer. I'd write dummy essays and set myself deadlines. And then I, I started to get good grades and, you know, I, I ended up getting a first at uni. And I, I went from a first to like barely getting a, from barely getting a D. And I, I kind of realized in that moment, like if you put the hours in, it matters more than anything. Like, and I always like say to any writers, like, how, how do I be a writer? Doesn't matter your intelligence, where you come from, your upbringing, anything. It's about the hours you put into it. Like, it's, it's hard work trumps everything. Intelligence, upbringing. I've long learned that like, hard work is, is the absolute key to anything in life. If you want something bad enough, for sure.

• 16:01Elizabeth Day?

  It's so interesting talking to you because I feel that there are certain elements that I really relate to. And I mentioned in the introduction that you were bullied at school. And I was slightly too, I mean, nowhere near the level that you experienced. It didn't get physical with me. But I also worked incredibly hard and still do. And I wonder whether you feel, as I do reflecting on this, that there's something about hard work that you think makes you feel lovable or makes you feel safe?

• 16:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think for me, certainly safe. I think that's, I, I think I know where I stand when I'm working. Like, I think I, I sort of, I feel perhaps confident in a work in a way that I don't in sort of life sometimes. I'm not saying I find it easy. Like, work is, we both know it's supremely challenging all the time in so many different ways. But I don't know, it just seems to make sense with me. And sometimes when I take a day off, which is so rare, like so rare that I take a day off. This is gonna sound so, so bleak, but I sometimes feel like something's missing. Like, I almost don't know how to plug into the world. Like, I, I sometimes find like, work is, can be so intense, especially the, the pressure of television where like every minute counts and you have to get filmed, you have to get everything filmed by the end of the day. The pressure is so unimaginable

• 17:15Speaker 00

  sometimes. But there is also like an addictive sort of adrenaline to it all, where it's like a thrill, like it's a real thrill. And I think that is quintessential workaholism in a way.

• 17:26Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel you have to work to a certain level in order to be accepted or loved?

• 17:33Speaker 00

  I honestly sometimes think like I've, I've become so lost in work, in, in both good, in good ways and, and sort of.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Intense ways to the point where I almost don't know why, other than I just feel so compelled to sort of do it, almost like it's, it's just like such a part of me now that my life kind of revolves around it and I'm, I'm sort of in it and I enjoy it and I'm kind of addicted to it, that it just becomes, it just is the way it is now. And I think like, I sort of love it. I think I sort of love it in a way. It's, it's weird. Like I feel like I had that revelation just then, but, but I think I must do to do it this much. And I think there's no feeling like working hard at something and feeling it come together.

• 18:18Elizabeth Day?

  Well, you said to me when you were writing about this failure, that it gives you a strong sense of purpose and satisfaction.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:25Elizabeth Day?

  But you also admitted that you've neglected relationships as a result of it and self-care. So what are some of the extremes that work has taken you to in that respect?

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Well, I think, you know, I am, you know, thirty six, uh, single, which kind of says it all in a way, you know, I, I have such a close group of friends. I think I'm the only one who's single. It doesn't bother me. I think it used to a little bit. It doesn't, it doesn't bother me at all anymore. Because I actually think it's, I almost think everyone should go through a sort of enforced, like at least three year period by themselves. I think it actually makes you stronger in a way. But I think that, I think a lot of relationships I get into with amazing people, very special people in early, I think, I think people are quite amazed by how much I work. I think people, I even say like date too. By the way, I work so much. Like I really, really work a lot and you should really know

• 19:21Speaker 00

  that. And I think there's always a thing, well, I imagine it's eight P M. every day. I see it on Monday, Friday or something. But I think it's always a shock for people. And I think because work has always taken the number one place in my life, people can find that quite hard and rightfully so, to not be the kind of number one thing, especially when you're looking forward. Certainly my age, when you meet someone, it's, it is about like, what does the future hold at this age? Because, you know, when you meet people sort of similar age or whatever. And I think that, you know, people sometimes take one look at someone who works this hard and thinks maybe this isn't quite right. So to come back to I suppose the sense of failure, I do, I do sometimes think I fail to prioritize anything in my life over, over work. And I think that can be, I suppose.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  A failure at times, yeah.

• 20:08Elizabeth Day?

  And with something like Half Man, where you are wearing so many different hats.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:13Elizabeth Day?

  How hard do you work? Like practically, what does your day look like?

• 20:17Speaker 00

  I mean, it is crazy. I get up about half five. I'll have a coffee and like some breakfast and then I'll head into the edit suite for about six. I'll try and get all my sort of emails and sort of admin stuff done before people come in around nine. And then I'll work with the editors, the mixers, the producers, everything up until about seven, eight, and then I'll stay till about 10, catching up on things. And then I'll go home and probably do some more stuff. I tend to, you know, like it's a HBO show, so America wakes up later on as well. And I'm always happy to stack till about midnight. But I'd say I get about four hours sleep a night, probably.

• 20:57Elizabeth Day?

  You're like Margaret Thatcher.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:59Elizabeth Day?

  Because I bet that's the first time that's ever been said about you.

• 21:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I almost quoted her a second ago because I almost said I'm on the Margaret Thatcher, I'm on the Margaret Thatcher routine at the moment.

• 21:08Elizabeth Day?

  You once uprooted your life and moved to a different city for work.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:12Elizabeth Day?

  Didn't you? Tell us that story.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, a year and a year and a half, the show was filmed in Glasgow and the show was filmed in Glasgow and edited up there and everything like that. And I just was like, well, if that's where the show is, that's where I've got to be. But I think it's, I think it would be rare, I would say, that a lot of showrunners would uproot their life for a year and a half to somewhere else and live. And it is a bit of a note to self being like, well, that is, that is a big, that is quite a big sacrifice, you know, being in a city, you're away from all your friends. That is, I think it shows just how extreme sometimes my commitment to work can be.

• 21:52Elizabeth Day?

  As I mentioned earlier, your career started out doing stand up shows. I mean, they weren't straight comedy. There was sort of theatrical aspect too. And you have been very open about the fact that you know what it's like to perform to no one.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:06Elizabeth Day?

  From one person to turn up and for you to take him to the bar.

• 22:10Elizabeth Day?

  Is there part of you that feels you want to make the most of the attention that you're getting now because there's a fear that it might go away?

• 22:21Speaker 00

  Michael Way, it's a good question. I, I tell you what I think drives me more is the fear that if I take, you know how like, like MMA fighters or boxers talk about ring rust?

• 22:31Elizabeth Day?

  I don't know that, tell me.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Have you heard about ring rust? It's kind of like, basically if a boxer or an MMA fighter takes too long away from the cage or the ring or whatever, the whole idea is they develop ring rusts and they forget how to fight. And I, I often sometimes worry if I take too long away from being creative, will I forget how to do it?

• 22:54Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NOCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NOCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 23:40Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Autumn's here, soup season is back, and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording, and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks, and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick, so you get proper performance without the usual faff.

• 24:25Elizabeth Day?

  They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius. And the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook. Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. Your father is a noted microbiologist.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:00Elizabeth Day?

  Which I find fascinating.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:02Elizabeth Day?

  Because microbiology is the art of looking at small things that are the stuff of life.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, absolutely.

• 25:09Elizabeth Day?

  Can you see a connection between what he does and what you do?

• 25:13Speaker 00

  My, yeah, I guess there is a sort of overlap with kind of looking at things in sort of forensic detail, I suppose. I've always wondered whether my dad always wanted me to go into science. I guess he probably doesn't think too much about it now, but, uh, but yeah, I just never. I always remember at school I'd always like excel in like the kind of art subjects, you know, the history and the English and all that kind of stuff. Drama and all that stuff. And I would always like find the maths and the chemistry and the biology and the physics really quite tricky, actually.

• 25:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I did single science and my dad's a surgeon. I hear you. You've spoken very warmly about your parents.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:48Elizabeth Day?

  And the support that they've given you. The work that you put out into the world, do you think it's made you closer to them?

• 25:58Speaker 00

  I think so. I, I don't know. It's, it's a good question. I, I sometimes wonder what they, what they do think. They're always like so supportive. Like they've never, ever told me, even from a young age, when I said, oh, look, I want to try and be an actor and a writer. And I want to, I want to write my own show and be in it. Like, I'm sure a lot of alarm bells goes off in most parents' heads, like the child becoming an actor, like, which is, what is it? Like 1% or 2% of actors actually make it or whatever. I'm sure it's like an alarm bell, but they never ever said no or discouraged me or anything like that, which I think is a testament to them as parents, really, because I, I think it would be very easy not to. I sometimes think I had a kid and they were like, I want to be an actor, like, oh God, really?

• 26:41Speaker 00

  Because it's tough and it's a tough life, but I think like they've never discouraged me and they've always watched everything I've done and they've always been super supportive and non judgmental. There's strong stuff in it. You know, a lot of parents would be like, oh God, you know, and I admit to a lot of things that I think is uncomfortable. I'm sure my parents find Baby Reindeer, episode four, uncomfortable to watch, you know?

• 27:00Elizabeth Day?

  Remind us what happens in episode four?

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Oh, well, that's the flash by the kind of famous Baby Reindeer episode where it kind of goes back in time. He meets a man at the festival. There's this kind of a grooming abuse storyline that kind of goes on with it. And, you know, they've seen all that and, but, but of course they knew about all that anyway. And, and, and so they've just been nothing but supportive, really. I've got a screening tonight for Half Man and they're down to see it. Yeah, I'm very blessed to have their support in my life.

• 27:27Elizabeth Day?

  When you say they knew about that, that's because you also are a survivor of sexual assault.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yes. And they, yeah, they knew about that. Yeah.

• 27:36Elizabeth Day?

  You work with a charity. Why is that important for you?

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, We're Survivors, they're, they're amazing. I mean, I mean, I came across We're Survivors very, very early on and I was kind of like a kind of bumbling comedian when I sort of came across them and they, they sort of reached out. I'd done Monkey See Monkey Two, I think, actually, which was a, the Edinburgh show I did, um, back in 2016, I sort of, which where I first started to sort of merge comedy with abuse, which kind of sounds a bit odd, but it is not like I was making fun of, fun of it or whatever. It was like I, I did a show basically where I ran on a treadmill. I was escaping a giant monkey and I, when I say it out loud, it sounds so bonkers, but you heard like voices in my head as I was trying to come to terms with sort of like a, a sexual abuse that happened in my past. And, you know, it kind of changed my life. It was

• 28:25Speaker 00

  this thing where, you know, I, I think actually that was when I told my parents, I was like, look, I'm going to Edinburgh to do this show and you should know what I'm about to say and about to do. But I remember when I was doing that show, We're Survivors got wind of it and they reached out and I sort of went and met them, met an amazing man called Duncan Craig, who's been a brilliant, not just a brilliant sort of. Colleague, if that's the right word, like a brilliant friend, a brilliant person, does a lot for so many people. And I think it's a great charity. And I'd never put my name to something that I thought wasn't doing it. But they do the most amazing work and the most amazing help for for men who've been through through this kind of stuff. And they're going from strength to strength. And I think they're amazing. And they've helped me down the years.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  You know, I'm not, I'm an ambassador, but I've also, you know, early on, I have used their services and can testify to how amazing they are.

• 29:14Elizabeth Day?

  I think it's so important that you do what you do with We Are Survivors. And I think it has helped an enormous amount of people. And I was thinking of you recently with Gisele Pellicot and the book that she published and her famous quote, which is that she rebukes the shame, the shame is not hers to carry. And I think that your work goes such a long way in reminding men of that.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not something to be ashamed of. That is, is put simply, but I get how it can feel that way. And that can be very hard to shed. You can say it's not, but sometimes the way your synapses have been wired as a result of sort of trauma or something means that it will circle back to that. So you can say, and sometimes I think that the human brain has the capacity to sort of feel something before you think it, you have the ability to sort of rationalize it. And I think sometimes you can almost like, you know, I remember in the aftermath of it, I felt like everyone could see it on me, like I was keeping this big secret. You'd be at like a cash register, you know, something. And then you'd be like paying for your shopping and the cashier looks at you like, you know, it's because you feel it before you think it. You're like, what is that feeling? And you're like, oh,

• 30:25Speaker 00

  it's because of that. And it's because of this. And so sometimes you feel shame before you have the ability to rationalize shame. And that, that can be very difficult to do. So it's very, it has to be a sort of internal process of acceptance, I think, you know, in order to get rid of that.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's very complicated. I'd love to say like it's not something to be ashamed of, but I'd almost rather say, I understand that you feel that shame and you will get through it through a process of acceptance that will take time, you know, so it's very complicated.

• 30:59Elizabeth Day?

  That sense that an imprint, as you put it, that your fear is that people can see it on you. When you were going through that process of baby reindeer of being recognised all of the time and having your face staring at you from newspaper front pages, was there a sense of re-triggering? Was, did that, did it feel similar? Shame and fame, did they feel similar?

• 31:22Speaker 00

  It's interesting because I always went the other way and I thought, oh, everyone's going to know this about me now. And I saw-

• 31:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, it's release.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  It kind of was in a way. I do sometimes marvel at how the journey has gone, you know, like, it's been like, god knows how many, way, way over a decade, like way over and, and sort of from, from kind of, dare not speak it out loud for, for, for fear you might admit the truth of what happened, kind of thing. Because it's got to stay and it's got to stay all the way to sort of, what was it, like 250 million people have watched it now. It's, it's kind of a crazy journey. That's, I suppose, an indicator that, that things can improve and can get better with time. I, I think, I think it did help. It was kind of that pull off, pull off the Band-Aid thing. Yeah. And I sort of, I sometimes think that when people come up, oh, they must be thinking this, they must be thinking that, but it doesn't,

• 32:12Speaker 00

  doesn't bother, bother me as much anymore. I really don't think it's anything to be ashamed of.

• 32:16Elizabeth Day?

  No. And there's your work again. The work is the salve.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:21Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your second failure, which is your failure to compromise.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:26Elizabeth Day?

  In your words, Richard, I can be quite stubborn and tend to hold on to things in principle, even when they are small or not especially important.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's me.

• 32:34Elizabeth Day?

  Are you petty?

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Petty, petty is an interesting word. I think if I, if I feel I'm right about something, but I might not be right, I, I think I could be quite unyielding in, in sort of having my mind changed about certain things, I suppose.

• 32:48Elizabeth Day?

  And does that exist in personal relationships as well as professional ones?

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, this, I suppose it- I don't know whether it was the way I was brought up to a certain degree. You know, I would say my dad taught me the art of being kind of, if something is bothering you, you know, you sort of speak, man, I think it's quite healthy in a way. Like, I think in a lot of ways. But the thing is, like, the worst thing is when you've been stubborn and then you realise, two days later, actually, maybe I shouldn't have been stubborn. I'm struggling to think of examples here, like, outside of work. But you see, I haven't been in a relationship for so long.

• 33:21Elizabeth Day?

  Give me an example from work, if you have one. Is there something that everyone was saying, oh, don't, you can't put that in the script? Or you can't do that, Richard? And then you sucked your guns and you did it.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I mean, the biggest one, I think, is probably Jess, Jess Gunning.

• 33:34Elizabeth Day?

  Really?

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I was so unyielding in the fact she had to be Martha, that I was sort of willing to alienate everyone in order to get her on the show. There was a lot of things that would be, like, it was obviously the right, the right choice. For so many reasons. I mean, it's, in my opinion, I'm biased, obviously, but one of the best performances ever, I think, on TV. I think she auditioned like six times, you know, in the end. And she came in for the first one and I knew straight away that it was Martha. Like, I knew straight away, this was what I wanted out of the character. Funny, kind of cute, but sort of slightly, like, bit unhinged and capable of switching and vulnerable. You know, like, a lot of, I saw the most amazing, amazing actors for that role.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  There was always a sense of perhaps playing the madness a bit too much, you know, which is very, very easy to do. I've been so gaily of playing the character in additions and stuff like that. But she came in and she played the, the truth, which I suppose is, I think people in additions think they, actors think that you look for good acting. I don't think actually, like, sort of producers and that, directors look for good acting. They look for truth, almost in a way, like this kind of window into a character's soul. And I just saw it and I, I think there was a lot of, Baby Reindeer was quite like, full, full IP at that stage. And there was a lot of talk about, you know, a lot of famous people being in the, the role, being in the, especially the role of Martha, which was an actor's dream in a lot of ways, you know.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  And I, I really did not want a famous person in that show. I just didn't. I thought that it would become a vehicle for their fame. And I think like, I, I really am all for, and I urge directors, production companies, everything to cast unknowns, because I think it allows you to, to see the art more clearly. I think if we watched The Office, and bad example, but Brad Pitt was playing David Brent, it would be like, isn't Brad Pitt doing an amazing, amazing turn as this guy running this office? But we believed it because we hadn't really heard of Ricky Gervais before. And therefore, we believed that David Brent was an actual live and breathing human being, desperate to be liked, failing as a boss. We wouldn't have bought into the art as much. And so I'm extremely pro casting

• 35:49Speaker 00

  unknowns, but there were some extraordinary, that I'm not allowed to say, actors who wanted to play Martha, like extraordinary. And I think people on the process thought I was crazy, saying, no, crazy. But it had to be Jess Gunning. It had to be.

• 36:02Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so glad. She's miraculous in that role.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:07Elizabeth Day?

  This inability to compromise, as you put it. Do you think it also, it's a weird question, bear with me, affects how you perceive of your own sexuality?

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Uh, go on, explain it.

• 36:22Elizabeth Day?

  Because I'm always really interested in the way you talk about your sexuality. You've said that the closest approximation is probably bisexual, but it's, it's sort of more than that, isn't it? It's more nuanced. It's, I mean, forgive me, because this is my interpretation of what you're saying. But for, for me, when I read what you said about it, it's more about the person than any other label. And I think others sometimes struggle to not put a label on people's sexuality.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think sometimes labels of. Around sexuality can tend to be quite a sort of like normative societal thing. Like you have to be one of any three. And I still think a large portion of society don't believe you can be one of the three. I don't believe you could be bisexual. I always think that it's still a large portion of society that believes you sort of can. You're one or the other and that's. But I actually think like we have but scratched like the surface of sexuality in a way. Like I think there's so many complications to it, you know? I always think that a lot of people are attracted to say femininity across all spectrums of sort of gender. You know, our masculinity across all spectrums of gender and sex. And I think we're so complicated in a lot of ways.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  And I think every time I've tried to say I'm this way and I'm going to leave the house today and I'm going to be this. And this is the way I'm going to be like nothing's ever really stuck. And I just don't realise that it's almost like I'm just kind of exhausted of asking myself the question almost in a way. I almost just think like I'm like a bit restless, I'm a bit confused. It's like it's discombobulating to me, but I think like I've learned to sort of accept that. It's yeah, but I suppose bisexual is like the way I say it's kind of the easiest way of helping other people sort of understand it. I suppose in a way, but I even when I say it now, I'm sometimes like, is that right? I'm not sure.

• 38:15Elizabeth Day?

  You're in the question in a way, which is.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I think in the question, I suppose, would I suppose imply that I was sort of still looking for an answer. I don't think an answer is going to come. I think it's quite, I think people more than people care to admit. I think sometimes when they're, when they are bisexual or have bisexual leanings, that when they're with one, they sort of are like, oh, I kind of question, but I should, I want the other one. And then when they were that one, they question, they want the other one. And there can be a bit of a seesaw, like a sense of restlessness, something from people that I know. I don't really know where it'll end up. I still, more than anything at one stage of my life, want kids for sure.

• 38:53Elizabeth Day?

  I was about to say, I can so see you as a parent.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I'd love to, I'd love to, but it has to be right.

• 39:00Elizabeth Day?

  Little gadettes, gad babies.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  That's what I'll call them. Yeah, they want their names, they'll just be the gad babies. But I, I do, I do, I do want kids eventually, you know, it has to be right. And I think, you know, I have to be sort of settled and I have to probably come back to failure, you know? Create a few boundaries with work and create a good environment there. So, you know, there's work to do, you know, before that. But so, yeah, I do really want kids one day.

• 39:28Elizabeth Day?

  There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its AI tools can help you get your site up and running quickly, and Shopify Checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, "Ooh, I like that," to, "Yes, I'll have one." If Shopify had existed when I started out, I could have saved myself a lot of time,

• 40:13Elizabeth Day?

  stress, and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the

• 40:19Elizabeth Day?

  of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk/fail. Autumn's here, soup season is back, and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording, and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks, and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick, so you get

• 41:02Elizabeth Day?

  proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius, and the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook. Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. Do you bear a grudge?

• 41:38Speaker 00

  A grudge?

• 41:40Elizabeth Day?

  Just generally, do you have grudges?

• 41:42Speaker 00

  I think I've actually learned to get a lot better. I remember once somebody saying to me, like resentment is drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. And I remember being like, oh, God, that's so true. You know, like, I've definitely been in periods in my life where somebody's, you know, that phrase living rent free inside your head, where somebody's just been going round and round and round and round. But I think I, I think a lot of it was down to sort of, can be down to sort of not being able to communicate sometimes properly. And I, I've long learned that actually some of the best ways of getting rid of these kind of real long terms for stewing resentments is to actually cut it off of the past and just say, look, it's like even the small thing to say, look, can we just chat about that for a second?

• 42:24Speaker 00

  I used to think that if you had sort of low level, you know, discussion about something that upsets you, that that person might hate you and, and so you better just keep it in and you can't come across like that. But I actually think people, people respect it as well. Like, I really think if you go about something in the right way, like it's not even conflict, it's discussion and it's healthy. And so I've long learned to, to not stew on things and to bring things up if I feel it's necessary. But I also have learned a lot better at sort of letting go.

• 42:55Elizabeth Day?

  I used to be a terrible grudge holder and I think I still am in the sense that I never forget if someone has inflicted some kind of pain or humiliation on me. But I think I realized when I was reading about your failure to compromise, as you perceive it, sometimes holding on to resentment is the only power left to us. That's the power we have.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's very disempowering as well, isn't it?

• 43:23Elizabeth Day?

  Totally.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:24Elizabeth Day?

  And, and it's, and it belongs to a sort of former version of myself in a way that I want to have evolved out of. And so now I find, and it's a bit like what you were saying, that if I approach that person mentally with compassion, the one who I think has done me wrong, that actually it diffuses the entire situation.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 43:45Elizabeth Day?

  And I think that's what your work does because you use empathy as this very powerful tool. There's, although your characters might act in really terrible, unlikable ways, there's always something that you bring in that makes them understandable.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's kind of like the human.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Condition almost in a way, I think like, I think what Hathman does, I hope is almost test people's capacity for forgiveness in a way. You know, the whole nature nurture question, which I'm certainly not educated enough to sort of have an answer to, but I do think if, I do think we're a lot of our experiences are very nurture, very sort of environment based. And I think a lot of people are grappling with things. Most people are grappling with things. Most people have had a period in their life where they felt unstable or really depressed or something's happened that was of great consequence or tragedy to them. And I think that does make up a person and does, can, can lead to certain problems and repressions that can result in complicated

• 44:53Speaker 00

  behaviours. And I think most human beings, and I know there are people who have sort of psychopathy and stuff like that, but removing them, I think most human beings, the 99% of human beings are dealing with a lot of pain and a lot of bad actions comes from pain and comes from an inability to process it. And I suppose with the characters of Reuben and Nile, like they're, they're both struggling so much. So the behaviour is contextualised and then it kind of offers that to the audience and asks them how much they're kind of willing to forgive. And I think after everything they've done in a lot of ways, I still hope, or I still believe, I suppose, that the audience might still have some sympathy for them.

• 45:33Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure, there's no easy link. It's your failure as an athlete.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 45:38Elizabeth Day?

  So you used to be a very good squash player.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Well, I thought I was. I mean, I was a very sporty kid and I sort of, I played football and tennis and squash. I mean, I did like so many sports. And I sometimes look back and think I should have really, I don't, I don't know whether I was ever good enough. In fact, I definitely wasn't good enough. But if I ever wanted to go back and do life again, I'd try and be a footballer for sure.

• 46:02Elizabeth Day?

  Really?

• 46:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just love, I just love football. But, but I did, I think squash was the one thing that I think I did kind of excel at at an early age. But bear in mind, I suppose I this was I played in the, I think it was the North Fife League. So it's not not the biggest pool of squash players in the world, but I did, I do remember like taking to it very quickly and and rising up the leagues. And then I played all the adults in the area. So I was probably about fifteen, fourteen, and I was beating all the adults in the area and like the kind of semi pros and stuff. And I, but I remember distinctly, I got called up to the Scottish Midlands for the kind of regional kind of tournament. And I remember going there because I kind of never really lost up to this point, including sort of adults and all these people that have been playing for like decades.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  And and I remember going to the playing for the Scottish Midlands. And I just remember suddenly coming across just an elite level sort of players. And I remember one game, you know, my dad watching on crestfallen and I didn't get a single, single point against someone. It just served me out the game. I look back and think I should have stepped outside. Every time I got to the top of us, kind of like the next test, I should have changed and gone to the next test. And I kept kind of challenging myself. I think I was too comfortable to sit in North Fife and as the best squash player. Rather than go out and test, because when I got, when it went to the kind of national level, I I just got thumped every single time.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  And I have vivid memories of seeing my dad just absolutely standing, watching, just feeling bad for me, I suppose is the the easiest way of putting it. But I'm just feeling like I'd really disappointed him, not that, not that he he was ever like that kind of parent or whatever that he was always very supportive. But I just could see on his face that I didn't know whether he was feeling embarrassment for me or whether he was just feeling sorry for me. But either way, I just remember looking up at him, you know, they're feeling I was an indestructible squash player. And I not only my points was so bad because of how bad my points were, the Scottish Midlands finished bottom of the league. Because and then that was when I decided to to call it a day.

• 48:09Elizabeth Day?

  It sounds as though the worst part of it for you was the letting down of other people.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's that's that's the bigger pressure for sure. Yeah, yeah.

• 48:18Elizabeth Day?

  What do you think that experience taught you about failure or about yourself?

• 48:23Speaker 00

  I mean, I think failure is hugely important, almost more important than success in a lot of ways. And I think like. I always think like there's a quote by Samuel Beckett, you might know it, fail once, fail twice, fail better.

• 48:35Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:36Elizabeth Day?

  I almost called the podcast Fail Better.

• 48:38Speaker 00

  Oh, really? Really? Oh, yeah. I think it's a beautiful quote. I think like failure is where you sort of grow and develop the most. I always remember, you know, thinking back to sort of my early comedy shows at the fringe, I remember my first ever show I did kind of exploded at the fringe. And then I came back the next year and I did a sort of very similar show, just with a kind of different spray job on it, kind of thing. And it was still a very popular show and everything, but I didn't feel this buzzy. It didn't feel like it was like the industry was tuned into it or whatever. And I felt like it was a step back. And I think I realized that I'd kind of done the same thing twice. And so

• 49:20Speaker 00

  it was never going to have the impact of the first one. And that was a good failure I look back on in the sense of, I think it taught me that you can't just carry on doing the same thing. And I think a lot of mistakes that like a writer as an artist make is they, they kind of make everything the same, but slightly different as they move through their career. And I think almost like the key to longevity sometimes is testing yourself. You get better testing yourself, risking failure and sort of reinvention in a way. And I think like I learned through that failure that I have to keep trying different things in order to make myself a better artist in a way. And I never would have done that had I not failed. And so I think, I think failure is where you learn everything. You don't really learn anything from success. If anything, it can make you complacent. If anything, I

• 50:03Speaker 00

  think that success can make you, your ego bigger and it can make, make you think that you are like, I also think a dangerous thing is when sort of artists kind of start to believe their own mythology, that they are some sort of God given talent. And I think that that's also very dangerous because I think they start to believe it and it innately impacts that their work.

• 50:24Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, what a perfect note to bring this to a close to. But actually, it makes me curious as to what you're working on now, because I know you must be working on something because you are a workaholic.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  I am working, I'm not going to say what it is.

• 50:37Elizabeth Day?

  Is it a lighthearted romp?

• 50:39Speaker 00

  Oh, never, never.

• 50:40Elizabeth Day?

  Is it a Regency romance?

• 50:42Speaker 00

  One day, one day. One day. I mean, one day I think I'd like to try that. But I think, I think that's too removed from my personal experiences, I suppose. And I think you should always try to sort of. Right. So what you know, close to your heart, close to your soul, close to what you're going through, kind of thing. So, so maybe one day I'll do a Regency romp.

• 51:02Elizabeth Day?

  You've taught me so much and made me question so much about myself in the best kind of way. And that's what true art does. And so to have you sitting opposite me in the How To Fail studio means an immense amount and is such a pinch me moment. So thank you, Richard Gadd.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  Thanks so much.

• 51:16Elizabeth Day?

  For coming on How To Fail.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  That was really kind. Thanks so much. Thank you.

• 51:22Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.