Emmy Rossum: Shameless, Motherhood & Knowing Your Worth

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Emmy Rossum. Emmy reflects on being raised by a single mother, what drew her to the role of Fiona Gallagher, her favorite memories from filming Shameless, and her fight for pay equity on the series. She also opens up about the relationship lessons she's learned, motherhood, and the next chapter of her career. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Bright by Scotch Bright. Daddy gang, a lot of us obviously take pride in where we live, right? We want the decor to look good and then we want the lighting and the cleaning and all of it.

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• 1:30Alex Cooper?

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• 2:14Alex Cooper?

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• 2:20Alex Cooper?

  What is up daddy gang? It is your founding Father Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:28Alex Cooper?

  Emmy Rossum, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:32Alex Cooper?

  Okay, we have so much to talk about today. You have accomplished so much in your career. You got into the industry as a kid. You spent nearly a decade of your life playing the fierce Fiona Gallagher that we all know and love on Shameless. And you have fought for pay equity in Hollywood. So I am like, girl, we have a lot to talk about today.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:55Alex Cooper?

  I'm so happy to meet you.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 2:57Alex Cooper?

  The shirt. Let's start with the shirt because I know you're a true New Yorker.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  We're the champions.

• 3:02Alex Cooper?

  Are you still clearly riding the high?

• 3:04Speaker 01

  It's never gonna end.

• 3:05Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  I've been waiting for this since I'm like six or seven years old. I became obsessed with basketball. I don't know why. I loved watching the sport. I deeply identified with John Starks growing up during that playoff run. I remember I wrote in my diary, he's so fiery on the court and I just identify with him. I see myself in him. And I love basketball because it moves really fast and you can see all the players' faces really, really well. And I need to understand the emotional narrative of what's going on with the players in the game. Like football, I'm too far away. I can't see their faces. Hockey, I can't see their faces.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Tennis, I like for the same reason. It moves fast. I can see them. I'm with them. I'm with the narrative. Like what is going on? They're trash talking each other. I can see it.

• 4:01Alex Cooper?

  You want to see the sweat.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  But I need to see the emotion. I want to see the drive. I love it. I get so invested. I need it. I love it.

• 4:12Alex Cooper?

  Okay, where were you when the next one?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  I was in Rhode Island with a bunch of actors and crew. I just finished a movie there. And so we kind of commandeered this bar. The bar was actually, I was like, hey, I'm looking for a place to watch the game. And they were like, oh yeah, that's great. We're actually having a thing on the roof to watch the game. I was like, amazing. So then I got up there and there was all these like World Cup flags and I was like, What are we gonna turn on the Knicks? And they were like, what game are you talking about? And I was like, the only game to care about right now.

• 4:46Alex Cooper?

  Like the New Yorker starts coming out of you. You're like getting so.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Panicked. And it turned out that there was actually nobody there to watch the World Cup. So they turned it into a Knicks playoff game. And then a wedding ended up coming up and they turned out to be Knicks fans. I cried.

• 5:01Alex Cooper?

  So you had a whole night?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  I had a whole night because the first teaser for my show got like a 15 second spot. And I only heard about it a couple of hours before the game and I was losing it.

• 5:14Alex Cooper?

  You're like, if there's ever been a moment that I am getting promo, it's right here, right now that I actually care about the most.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  I was like, if we win tonight and my show has a promo on it, like I can just, I can just die happy.

• 5:30Alex Cooper?

  I did want to ask you, when I was stalking you, there is an Instagram post that you shared five years ago when the Knicks were also in the playoffs.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 5:38Alex Cooper?

  And you were in labor at the time.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:41Alex Cooper?

  But it feels like there's a bit of like a chaotic story where like, are you putting basketball before giving birth? Like, can you tell the story? What happened?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  I was pregnant with my daughter and I knew that I was due. And I was very much in denial that I was in labor the first time. I remember I like gave my husband a haircut. I was cleaning the house. I ordered some Thai food and I had some contractions, but like, was like, kind of like, well, it's probably fine. I was definitely scared of childbirth. My mother's mother had died in childbirth. So that narrative was very in the back of my head or my psyche somewhere. But what was in the front of my psyche was I was not going to go into labor until after the Knicks game.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  And so I was laboring over a large kind of exercise ball in full labor.

• 6:38Alex Cooper?

  As you're watching.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  As I'm watching the next game. And in this photo, my mom is next to me on the couch being like, I really think you should just like, go get the epidural. And I was like, nope, I'm gonna watch this game and I'll go when I'm fully dilated.

• 6:51Alex Cooper?

  And then you, what, you call an Uber and you're like in labor?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  I actually labored the whole night before I went to the hospital in the morning. My contractions never got any closer together than like eight minutes. So I didn't think I was very close. And I was like, I don't think I can do like, do much more of this.

• 7:11Alex Cooper?

  Right.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  And then finally, yeah, I woke my husband up and I was like, we gotta call an Uber.

• 7:16Alex Cooper?

  We gotta go.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  And he was like, should I get the playlist ready? And I was like, I think I don't, I don't want the playlist anymore. Like.

• 7:23Alex Cooper?

  You would have playlist?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  The labor playlist, yeah.

• 7:25Alex Cooper?

  Oh, wow.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Should I get like the playlist ready? And I was like, I'm ill. I don't want the playlist anymore. I love you so much.

• 7:32Alex Cooper?

  Like, do I need a labor playlist?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 7:34Alex Cooper?

  What kind of music did you have on it?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  There was like a lot of like hip hop, R and B.

• 7:40Alex Cooper?

  Oh, okay. So not like soothing.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  I don't think we knew.

• 7:43Alex Cooper?

  We have like Kendrick Lamar going. I'm like, I feel like I would be thinking more of like, like soft, like meditation, but you're like.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  We were not. We were not. Yes. His contribution to the labor was his playlist.

• 7:56Alex Cooper?

  You're vibing.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Which went unused because we, we took the Uber to the hospital and I remember I was like, sir, like, you really, I feel like you really gotta, you gotta step on it. And and, and we were like driving up Park Avenue in the city and he, like, the light would turn, like, start to turn yellow and he would just stop. And I would like go into another contraction.

• 8:21Alex Cooper?

  Sir, do you want five stars? He's like, your Uber rating's going down. You're about to have a baby in my backseat.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  I know. And that, that was the fear. I was like, I just don't want to have this baby in the backseat. But then I got to the hospital.

• 8:32Alex Cooper?

  And you were fine.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  And they were like, my water still hadn't broken. And they were like, oh, you're eight centimeters dilated. Like, don't sneeze. Like, this baby's gonna fall out of you.

• 8:41Alex Cooper?

  Okay, what was it like the first moment you met your daughter?

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Wow. I held her and I have a video of the first moment and I said, oh my God, that's a person.

• 8:54Alex Cooper?

  And obviously I've heard people say like, and then you're staring at your child and you're like, oh my God, like this is on us now. Like we're there. We're allowed to leave the hospital with this beautiful thing, but like, what do we do? Did you have any of that feeling?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Certainly I was overtaken by the feeling of vulnerability, just at this thing that you've been able to keep safe inside of you for so long is now outside of you. And it's so vulnerable and anything could happen to it. Anything could hurt it. The postpartum anxiety for me was very, very rough, like very intense intrusive thoughts. And I had had a kind of crazy journey to get pregnant where I have PCOS. So I was, I had very, very

• 9:45Speaker 01

  debilitating ovarian cysts throughout my twenties. Um, and tried to get pregnant naturally. It didn't happen. Tried IUI, didn't happen. And then tried IVF and it happened in a big way.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  I only did one harvest, but a kind of side effect of PCOS is that you can kind of become a super responder. So I, I, they woke me up from the harvest and said that I had 72 eggs. Yeah. Which was trippy and bizarre. And I thought I'd maybe have 12.

• 10:30Alex Cooper?

  Of course.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Um, and they were like, and we fertilized them all. And I was like, what?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it had been a long journey to get to meet my daughter. And then when I finally had, um, it was also towards the end of COVID. Um, so I had been able to keep the pregnancy private the whole time, which is something I know you desperately wanted to.

• 11:00Alex Cooper?

  It is. And I also love that, like, I get to sit here and talk with you about it. And I know that so many women who have PCOS or, you know, did IVF are going to be like hanging on to every word that you're saying right now. Because I think what is so unique about women's experiences is they are so unique and no one is the same. Like you saying that you got 72A. I was like,

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then the offshoot of that was after you do IVF, they tell you to like monitor your weight in the next couple of days to see if you put on any water that, you know, and I gained like 14 pounds in two days. And I was like, something's wrong here. So I called the doctor and I'd just eaten like a big fat cheeseburger. And I was like, I don't know, like, I feel like a plump grape, something's wrong. And so I went back in and I'd gone into hyperstem. So they had to extract the fluid, which modern medicine is incredible. But this procedure was bizarre and kind of barbaric. Um, I went in and they were like, have you eaten today?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Cause we could do Twilight. And I was like, I've eaten a huge cheeseburger. And they said, okay, well, we're gonna have to extract this fluid. And then they took out an enormous Diet Coke bottle and just like took the fluid out right into the Diet Coke, empty Diet Coke bottle.

• 12:20Alex Cooper?

  You're like,

• 12:21Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is, this is okay. I guess this is what we do.

• 12:25Alex Cooper?

  I know. I'm like, oh, is there not like a normal tube that looks a little bit more like medical? Anything other than like, oh, wow.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:34Alex Cooper?

  That's the also the fascinating part because I want to go through your whole life and we're going to get more into motherhood as we go. Because I know you were also raised by a single mother.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:45Alex Cooper?

  But like, that's the part of motherhood that's so fascinating is we we act like it's such like, oh, and then she like had a baby and it's like, no, no, no, like the actual war that women are up against to even be able to say, and then a baby came and it actually, there's so much like glamorization around it. It acts like it's like just like a normal casual thing. And it's like, this is so complex.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:10Alex Cooper?

  And there's so much that goes into it that I had no concept of. And maybe I'm becoming even more aware of it, obviously, because I'm going through it.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:19Alex Cooper?

  But like, women are so incredible and it is overwhelming what we have to go through to get to where the standard and the norm feels like it should be.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:38Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals, or bold seasonal touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Shopify. Daddy gang, you know, I'm a little skeptical of the internet at times, aren't we all? But one thing I absolutely love is how much easier

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• 15:07Alex Cooper?

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• 15:45Alex Cooper?

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• 15:59Alex Cooper?

  Okay, let's go back. Um, so you're raised by a single mother.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:03Alex Cooper?

  She was a photographer.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  My mom was a photographer. She was, my mom was very adventurous. She was a single mom. And she met my dad on an airplane. Um, and he was not interested in being a dad. Um, he left her when she was pregnant. And so I didn't meet him

• 16:29Speaker 01

  until I was four and even then I didn't know he was my dad. Um, but my mom was.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  My mom is amazing. She's very adventurous. She was a corporate photographer. When I was little, she would travel a lot and she would do things like go to Saudi Arabia to do the annual reports for Mobil Oil and she would hang out of a helicopter like attached by a cable and take pictures of an oil rig. She photographed like the making of the atom bomb for our government. She was Steve Jobs' personal photographer for many years before I was born. And my mom was just like hugely impressive and capable in so many ways. Like, we went to Japan and she could like order in Japanese and ask where the bathroom was.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  We went to France and she like broke out the the French with the cab driver where they were like talking about the First World War in France, in French. And I was like, that's like real French. My mom is going to be 80 in January and she had me when she was 40. And she, like I asked her last week, what are you doing this week, Mom? And she was like, my dishwasher is fixed, so I'm going to, it is broken, so I'm gonna fix it. And I was like, what do you mean? Do you know how to fix a dishwasher? And she said, no, but I will by Friday. And I called her and she fixed it.

• 17:51Alex Cooper?

  What a gift to have such a capable, inspiring, intellectual mother.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:00Alex Cooper?

  As your kind of like North Star to life.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:03Alex Cooper?

  And watching the world through her eyes is like, it explains a little bit, obviously, of why you are the way you are. How would you have described your relationship with her when you were young and growing up?

• 18:15Speaker 01

  We were close, but I

• 18:20Speaker 01

  certainly felt the absence of my dad. I certainly didn't want my mom to go to work. You know, my kids are three and five now and sometimes it's hard when you go to work. Sometimes they have big feelings about this. One time when I was like four, I think I was like throwing a tantrum like, don't go to work, don't go to work. And my mom said, okay, do you know what happens if I don't go to work? And I said, what? And she said, we would sleep on the street. And I said,

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Okay. And she said, do you know what it's like to sleep on the street? And I said, shrug. You know, I'm four. I don't know.

• 19:09Alex Cooper?

  Of course.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  And she opened the fourth floor window. And she took my pillow and my blankie and my teddy, Huggy, who I still sleep with to this day.

• 19:18Alex Cooper?

  Of course.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  He is in my hotel room right now.

• 19:21Alex Cooper?

  Huggy.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Huggy. He's a polar bear.

• 19:23Alex Cooper?

  I wonder what he looks like at this point.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  He's a polar bear.

• 19:25Alex Cooper?

  Is he a little scary though?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  No, he's very hugged on his belly.

• 19:28Alex Cooper?

  Have you gotten him like restitched a little?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  He's been so operated on, Frankenstein. But she took all that and she put it out the window. And like, I remember watching it like float down. And that was how she taught me the importance of survival. She threw it out the window.

• 19:46Alex Cooper?

  I'm picturing there's like a little fire escape situation.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 19:49Alex Cooper?

  Oh, it was?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Four floors down. Four floors down.

• 19:52Alex Cooper?

  So then did you walk down and have to go to the street?

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we went and got it. And then she went to work.

• 19:58Alex Cooper?

  Yes, she did.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  So I might do things differently now. But we were very, very close. I needed her. I wanted her. But she had to go to work. She, she made me understand survival in a very intense way. My mom's not a woman of feelings. She's a woman of like, her love language is acts of service.

• 20:22Alex Cooper?

  And she's quite

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Hardcore.

• 20:23Alex Cooper?

  Practical. Like, this is what it is. So this is what it is.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. There you go. Your bedding's in the courtyard if you'd like to sleep there. But also, as I've become a mother, I have found so much forgiveness for my mother. For all the ways in which feelings were not her strong suit, right? My mom's mom died when she was 13. She grew up in a really traumatic household. She was out of the house by the time she was 15. And went to Barnard College and really made a life for herself as a single woman, as an adventurous, single woman. So I know that I'm gonna need forgiveness as a mom too. And I think as we step into these new chapters of our lives, we are afforded the opportunity to

• 21:10Speaker 01

  recontextualize the ways in which our parents came up short for us.

• 21:15Alex Cooper?

  Absolutely.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  But still love them.

• 21:17Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, I remember I I read somewhere you had said like in the past, you wanted to be worthy of being your mother's daughter.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Oh, shit.

• 21:26Alex Cooper?

  And I was like, oh, that's that's a good one.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  I am.

• 21:30Alex Cooper?

  That's a heavy one.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  I certainly am.

• 21:33Alex Cooper?

  And that but that's like.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  But for my daughter, she doesn't have to do anything to be worthy of being my daughter.

• 21:39Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's amazing. Like, my mom and I never had a lot of money, but I never felt that as a kid. She never bought herself new underwear. She took care of me. She put me in a private school. Like, everything went to taking care of me and putting and funneling into me. So even though she may have not, you know, been able to be all the things a conventional mother is supposed to be, should be, although I hate shoulds, she did a lot for me and I love her very much.

• 22:09Alex Cooper?

  I was gonna say, it's um, really impressive because talking about, you know, two women living in an apartment together in New York City.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Till I was eighteen, one bathroom.

• 22:20Alex Cooper?

  Like, that is.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  One bedroom.

• 22:22Alex Cooper?

  I can I can picture it. And then to know, so you went to one of the most prestigious prep schools in the city.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 22:29Alex Cooper?

  What were you like at school? Like, how would your teachers have described you?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  It's funny because I found my old report cards. She gave them to me. She had everything saved for my childhood and she was like, I want to give these to you. I was really into drama, really into art, um, really into make believe. Um, and I had a solid group of friends, a very small group of friends from day one. My best friend, Dory, Joanna, Pam, from day one. Dory, who is still so my best friend, they're actually all my close friends, but Dory bought the apartment three floors below me so that we can raise our kids together. It's very like Fiona and then Kevin V, the neighbors next door.

• 23:14Alex Cooper?

  I love it. I love it.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  And our kids literally go up and downstairs, the back stairs to hang out. And it's like very a little community in our little apartment building. We actually lived across the street from each other and decided it wasn't close enough. And she sold the apartment and moved into my building when it became available.

• 23:32Alex Cooper?

  This is like making every Shameless fan so happy right now because I'm just picturing you and like the chaos of going up and downstairs and all of you being so close.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:42Alex Cooper?

  Oh, wow.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  It is amazing.

• 23:44Alex Cooper?

  And were you an overachiever in school?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  No, but I never really found my place or my people in school. But it was my second grade music teacher that recommended that I go audition at the opera at the children's chorus. And I did, and that's how I ended up singing at the children's chorus. And I loved it. The second I walked into the opera, it was like I had found my people, my place.

• 24:13Alex Cooper?

  That's what I was reading. So you were seven years old when you started singing at the Met?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:18Alex Cooper?

  Eleven, you landed your first TV role. Sixteen, life changes. You starred in the movie The Phantom of the Opera.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Seventeen.

• 24:27Alex Cooper?

  Seventeen.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:30Alex Cooper?

  Did your mom have any hesitations about you going into this career?

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Well, my mom was an artist. And so being an artist was a noble profession. And not a profession that you went in to get rich or famous. Certainly didn't go to the opera to sing there for $10, $20 a night to have that outcome. My mom was very aware that there were dangers and

• 25:04Speaker 01

  drawbacks to this.

• 25:06Alex Cooper?

  When you had, you know, I like mentioned the pressure that you put on yourself to be worthy of your mom. Did you bring that mindset into your career at all?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I, I, I had a lot of natural drive and ambition to be the best that I could be. And also, there was a lot of rigor that came with being at the opera. You were expected to go onstage, perform, get it right, every single time. There was like, not a lot of leniency for fucking up. And so that really made my own, you know, Virgo perfectionism, like, really kick into high drive. But I felt, when I walked out onto stage, that that all evaporated.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  It was so easy for me to share, to feel that I could lose myself in that, and that there were people that were sitting there every night, experiencing that live with me. It was magic.

• 26:13Alex Cooper?

  You have said that you like to be a little terrified by a role.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:18Alex Cooper?

  What feelings draw you to that, of wanting to be terrified?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Well, it's different in life. I think in life, you know, you have that little smoke detector in your head, and like, when you're young, you're like, oh, I think I hear something beeping, like, maybe the battery needs to be changed, or like, oh, it's a little hot in here, like, maybe I should turn on the AC. Like, is that, is that the smell of singeing? I'm sure my neighbor's making cookies. Like, no, bitch, your hair's on fire. Get out of the house. Right? So in life, when you hear the smoke detector, you have to run from it. But in art, when you hear the smoke detector, you move towards it, because that says that there's something there for you, something unexamined in yourself, something that scares you, something that causes you shame. And those are the things that we must examine about ourself, about our characters, about

• 27:11Speaker 01

  our womanhood, about our society. We have to, no different than what you do, you're unafraid to look in the places that other people don't want to look.

• 27:21Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, that makes me think about Fiona Gallagher. Like, let's talk about, so, your character on Shameless, she was ferocious, she was resilient, she was pretty self-destructive at times.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, risky.

• 27:38Alex Cooper?

  Take me to the moment that you read the script for the first time, like, what drew you in, in the way that you're kind of talking about right now, about Fiona?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  It was unlike anything I had done before. It was raw. There was sexuality. Um, there was longing and yearning for an absent parent, which is something that hit deep for me. There was kind of like this slightly chaotic environment that was based on survival that also felt very familiar to me. There was deep love and connection and loyalty in that family and that hit deep for me. And there was a sense that even though

• 28:27Speaker 01

  they were in an economic depression, they were not depressed. They refused to be. And there was resilience and love. And I knew it was mine. I knew it was my role. I knew it was for me. There's like sometimes when you read things, you're just drawn to them and you're like, yeah, I volunteer as tribute. Do you know what I mean? Like, put me in, coach.

• 28:53Alex Cooper?

  And didn't they at first not feel that way about you?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  No, I was told that they thought I was too princessy. I had come off Mystic River, Day After Tomorrow, Phantom, Poseidon Adventure. I had walked a lot of red carpets and press tours for those. And I had not displayed that level of rawness in a performance, certainly. But I think only an actor knows what they're capable of, which is why it's so important for all artists to take their careers into their own hands and get into the driver's seat, because only you know what you have inside.

• 29:29Alex Cooper?

  I mean, and just like now knowing, I mean, I was such a fan of the show and I still am, like the environment that you were able to create with your character, like it felt so immersive. Like when you're watching the show, I'm literally a part of this family. Like I can't stop watching. And you, you all did such a good job bringing it to life, playing this character for almost a decade.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:51Alex Cooper?

  Did you discover anything unexpected about yourself in the process?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I had always wanted a big family. That was so emotional for me to like walk in and firstly make a pilot, you never know if it's gonna go. But before we made the pilot, they gave us a week in the house in the space, which was built on a stage in the Warner Brothers lot. And in the kitchen, the director, Mark Milod, put a bunch of cold cuts and bread. And at that time, the fridge still smelled fine after years and years of the fridge getting unplugged and replugged. And the fridge smelled so bad by the end and they would put GoPros in the fridge. And we would have to open the fridge, you know, because there's a little camera inside and we would get something and you would have to plan when you would take your breath.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  It was like a joke we all played because like an old fridge, just like there's something wrong with it. It was like something had died in that fridge.

• 30:50Alex Cooper?

  I can smell it and I'm not even there.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  It was so bad. I'd like, you'd be like, okay, so as I'm coming around the kitchen island, I'm gonna take my breath here and and then I'm getting a breath. Okay, I'm closing it. Ah, it felt like, it was crazy. But the first week that we were in that house,

• 31:07Speaker 01

  it was magic. It was, we were all, and that's kind of what it's like being on a show. It's like summer camp or Love Island. You're all in with less glam. You are all in the same place. You are caring about the same thing. You are talking about the same thing. You are eating your meals together. I was, so those cold cuts were in there so I could prepare the meals for the family for our week of rehearsals. The fridge smells, still smelled great, so it was fine.

• 31:36Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  But it was really this amazing time where we were sharing and getting to know each other. And there was rigor on the set, too. We didn't have a huge budget, so we would shoot up to eight or 10 pages a day sometimes. When we went to Chicago, there were no sides on set, ever. No sides. All actors were, no sides for crew either.

• 31:57Alex Cooper?

  You want to explain what that means?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when you get to set ordinarily, people shrink down the script to this kind of like pocket sized version. And you just have the pages that you're gonna shoot that day. So if actors haven't learned their lines, um, which some choose not to, um, they can look at them or people can refer to them. So everyone's got a little like mini, mini bible of what you're making today. John Wells doesn't believe in that. He believes everyone should show up and be ready to do the job. So he doesn't make those available. They're literally not produced. So if you want sides on set, you gotta lug your whole script around. So that meant that everyone showed up completely ready to work at all times. There were no last looks.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Last looks is when your hair and makeup team come in, when they say the cameras are ready to roll and they touch you up. Zero. We didn't have sides. We didn't have last looks. It was the best training camp for 10 years of show up on time, be ready. That, this is my home. This is home for me. I don't need touch ups. I don't want touch ups. I want to make, I want to, I want to make, let's make some feeling.

• 33:07Alex Cooper?

  Right. This is like back to what you were saying about the opera. You're like, this is, and I know that there has been reports of like 20 hour production days and the set could be challenging at times. Like, how do you look back on that period when you like hear those things? Like, do you stay positive?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I love that show and our experience so much. 20 hour production days are, they happen. And when we were in Chicago, we would shoot two units at once. We would, so you would be shooting over here, you would change sometimes like in a restroom at a gas station or sometimes like you would do a quickie change like behind a dive coat on the sub, on the L train, you would go to the next location. But we were so enmeshed with each other. We were so in each other's lives. We spent 10 to 16 to 20 hours a day, five

• 34:09Speaker 01

  days a week, five months a year for nine years together. So it's impossible not to be so close.

• 34:17Alex Cooper?

  Um, did you ever feel like your work ethic was mislabeled in the press? Or in those moments where you were showing up and doing your job?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  That wasn't my experience. I felt very, very nurtured and shepherded by John Wells, who encouraged me to direct on the show, which I got to do many times. My cast also was very champion of me to do that.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  I certainly come to the set to work. And I bring my all. And I think like many women, we care deeply and we prepare deeply and we love what we do. But I, um, I mean, I, I love that job so much. And I, I felt like I was, I felt like I was born on that job. That I, that's where I learned to direct. John also was so shepherding of my writing as well, giving notes on the first script that I had written, hiring me to direct on another one of his shows.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  And those are all my buds. Like we're close. I'm seeing one of them tonight on set. So I'm, I'm really grateful for that time. And it has a, just nothing but happiness in my heart for it.

• 35:41Alex Cooper?

  Okay, we're going to close out Shameless conversation with some rapid fire. Okay. If you had to pick, which of Fiona's exes would she end up with?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Jimmy Steve. They're just, they're just so good together. I mean, yeah, he's, he's not always honest at all, but I just love them together.

• 35:59Alex Cooper?

  Jimmy Steve, they're, they're even in the honesty lies, the problem. We thought his name was one thing.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Loved him.

• 36:05Alex Cooper?

  It's another thing.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  He was cast before I was too. Yeah.

• 36:08Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  And we had made a movie together called Dragon Ball Evolution a couple of years before. So I already knew him and the second that I knew he was cast, I couldn't wait to work with him again.

• 36:19Alex Cooper?

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:20Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Which Gallagher sibling were you the closest to off camera?

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Lip.

• 36:26Alex Cooper?

  Okay, let's talk about good old Jeremy.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:29Alex Cooper?

  Who do you think was more stubborn, character wise, Fiona or Lip?

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Lip.

• 36:34Alex Cooper?

  But I'm team Fiona. You're like, obviously.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:37Alex Cooper?

  He was the problem. Okay, what is your one of your favorite memories with Jeremy Allen White on set?

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Anytime we had a scene that was just us, where we could really dig in, either a quiet scene or scenes where we went at each other. He's so, he has so much soul and he brings so much intensity and so much truth and honesty. That's the kind of the beautiful thing about playing characters for, I mean, I made 110 episodes of the show. They made more than that than I did. And after a certain point, the writers start to write little bits of you in there. And they start to understand like the symbiosis of how you guys work together. And

• 37:28Speaker 01

  I'm so happy for him and proud of him and, and he's such an incredible human being and incredible actor. And I just feel lucky that we got to share all those scenes together.

• 37:39Alex Cooper?

  No, I know. I was thinking about that, like how crazy to see that success that he's having.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:46Alex Cooper?

  And have Ben probably feeling like he's like a brother to you on this set. And then to see, obviously, like you both having so much success, that must be so gratifying.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 37:57Alex Cooper?

  It's amazing. Okay, um, what is your favorite off camera memory that you have with the cast?

• 38:04Speaker 01

  In Chicago, we had this massive, massive snowstorm and we got shut down for one day. We would go to Chicago to shoot twice a season and we all stayed in the same hotel. And we would be in and out of each other's rooms and we ate all meals together and.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  We got this piece of cardboard to like be a makeshift sled. And Justin Chatwin saw a truck and got on the piece of cardboard and like rode it down the road. He's such a, he's such a daredevil. And I have this video of us while watching him do it, being like, don't do it, but also do it.

• 38:49Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  And that was kind of like, we had a lot of kind of mischievous play and

• 38:55Alex Cooper?

  That tracks.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  craziness. And it was just incredibly fun.

• 38:59Alex Cooper?

  Love it. What Fiona decision will you go down defending?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  God. I mean, I think the worst time she ever fucked up was when she left the cocaine around that I think Robbie had given her and Liam got into it. And he ended up hospitalized for it. And I think that that was the worst I ever saw her. And certainly when I read it, I was terrified of the scene because of how I, I cared about Fiona, even though it made for really good drama.

• 39:38Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God. Not you like reading that scene, you're like,

• 39:40Speaker 01

  I'm like, oh, it's really good drama, but like, oh, God, I gotta do this now.

• 39:44Alex Cooper?

  Okay. Off the top of your head, most emotional scene to film?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Certainly in the prison, the strip search scene was really very challenging.

• 39:53Alex Cooper?

  It's so crazy because that show was so funny in moments, but like my parents are rewatching it and they're like,

• 39:58Speaker 01

  It's dark.

• 39:59Alex Cooper?

  What's an iconic line of dialogue from the show that you still remember?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  I don't think it was even in the show, but we had this off camera joke of, look what you could have had Craig Heisner. That was like, maybe Shinola's line, but maybe not. And it was about Taylor Kinney, who played this guy Craig Heisner that Fiona was into in high school and he ends up married, but then she ends up sleeping with him, even though he's married. Um,

• 40:26Alex Cooper?

  I like that line.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  So I, I think, I don't know if that was in there, but that's what we used to say a lot.

• 40:39Alex Cooper?

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• 42:07Alex Cooper?

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• 43:00Alex Cooper?

  Okay, I want to talk about a huge accomplishment of yours, your fight for pay equity on Shameless. How did you first decide to even take that on?

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Well, when I started the show, it made a lot of sense that Macy made a lot more money than me. He was coming in much older, much more accomplished, tons more credits, and number one on the call sheet. And then by season three, they approached us, we had a six-year contract, approached us to add another year. And I think my lawyers felt at that time that we had the receipts. Like, we could see the way the storylines were shaping. We knew about fan engagement. And we felt that it made sense to ask for that. We didn't get it. And that's fine. We thought, you know, we tried, we didn't get it.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  And then in season five or six, they came and they asked for more, more years. So I guess at six, we extended to seven. And then maybe in seven, they came and they asked for eight, nine, that's right. And by that point, I had been directing a lot on the show. And it very much felt like a two-hander. And we said, let's go for it again.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  It was kind of shut down pretty fast. And we kind of, it kind of lingered for a while.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  And then I wasn't sure if we were gonna get it.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  It's always scary asking for what you think you're worth. To say, I think this is what I'm worth. You have to take up space in the room. And it's their job to make the show for as little as possible to make the most profit. That's, any business runs that way. So Kai can understand it from the other perspective, too.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  And I didn't know if they were gonna come over to our side and do it or not.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  And we were getting kind of close to filming the next season. And

• 45:27Speaker 01

  I was one day sitting, I was like on a writer's retreat and I was procrastinating and I opened up Twitter and it was a headline that we were in like a stalemate. And I was shook.

• 45:45Alex Cooper?

  Because you had intended for this whole thing to stay private?

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a private business negotiation, negotiation and I never imagined it would become public, not just for the public, but also for the rest of the cast and the crew.

• 46:02Alex Cooper?

  Right, because the cast wasn't aware, obviously, everyone...

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Everyone was doing their own negotiation. And so I certainly didn't want that.

• 46:13Alex Cooper?

  How did you manage that, once it broke on Twitter? Like, did you reach out to cast? Did they reach out to you? Like, because it's a little awkward.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  I didn't say anything. And after the first headline or article, I was kind of like, refresh, refresh, refresh? What's going to happen? And the tide really shifted. People seemed to write other articles, like immediately commenting on that, kind of being quite surprised that I wasn't already being paid equal. And it was resolved within a day.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  I was shocked, shocked, and quite frankly, very, very surprised that we actually got it.

• 47:10Alex Cooper?

  Wow, so maybe the public commentary actually really helped in your favor? Because it like woke people up to be like...

• 47:19Alex Cooper?

  She's not delusional.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:21Alex Cooper?

  Like, guys, what are we doing here?

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:23Alex Cooper?

  I also think something that's so interesting is like, when men advocate for their worth, they seem strong and it's kind of, you know, they're competitive and it can even be strategic.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 47:36Alex Cooper?

  And when a woman does it, you can just come off as difficult and ungrateful for what you have been given. As you were navigating all of that before it, you know, got released on Twitter, did you feel this pressure to remain likeable during the negotiations? Because these are people that, you know, you have to work with.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  I only desire to remain professional. And my focus is never on money. It's on

• 48:11Speaker 01

  what's fair and what's right. And I believe that people should be paid for their labor. It was really about being valued equally when I was doing equal work. So for me, it was as simple as that. And I was very, very happy when we got it and very, very happy for what it seemingly did for, for, for other women who I, you know, I was like in a health food store in Ontario or somewhere in Canada, making a movie a year later. And a girl in the health food store said to me, oh, thank you so much for what you did for pay equity.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  We all asked for a raise here. And I couldn't imagine that it had traveled so far. I think, you know,

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I think ambition and wanting to be in the driver's seat of your life is not something to be shied away from. I think.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  I think likeable is, is, should not be the focus. It focuses on outward in, not what we know to be true about ourselves and our worth.

• 49:25Alex Cooper?

  And I think like, I agree. I think that's the goal, right? I remember when I interviewed Ellen Pompeo and she talked to me about her contract negotiations with Grey's Anatomy. And she was like, girl, no one is gonna give it to you. You have to ask for it.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  That's interesting. We had the same agent.

• 49:46Alex Cooper?

  Oh my God.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Very interesting.

• 49:48Alex Cooper?

  Oh, that's very interesting.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  I like her very much.

• 49:50Alex Cooper?

  I like her very much too.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:52Alex Cooper?

  Oh, wow. Okay. Because when Ellen said that to me, I was like, oh my, you're so right. No one is gonna give it to you. You, like, you gotta go for it.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  There were also a lot of men on my team who were like, let's get this. We are going to get this. We are not going to go back unless we get this. So it wasn't me saying I want this. There were a lot of times where I felt scared and wanted to cave. I was like, who cares? I love this show. I love these people. I want to do this. And they were like, no, we're not doing this. We're not doing it. But because I had caved once before. I had caved in the first contract negotiation and yeah.

• 50:32Alex Cooper?

  I also just, I really appreciate you talking about it because I think it's just such an uncomfortable conversation for so many people because you think about money and you think about men. And so like, we're kind of dancing around a topic that historically just has not been synonymous with women. And so to reacclimate people's brains to like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm doing the same job as this person who happens to be a man. But why are we not making the same amount? Or why, like, where is the pay equity? It, it sparks a larger conversation, like Twitter obviously took it and ran with it. But it does still, there is that fear within you that it's fascinating. It's like, would a man be scared? Because we're kind of trained of like,

• 51:17Alex Cooper?

  How far do you want to push it?

• 51:19Speaker 01

  And I'm so pleased that now this equity conversation is being had.

• 51:24Alex Cooper?

  Right, is a conversation.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  It is very hard for women to get what they are worth because there is a double standard.

• 51:31Alex Cooper?

  Do you have any advice for women who have a hard time advocating for themselves and for their worth?

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Practice it at home. Practice saying it out loud. Practice saying what you need and what you want in every aspect of your life.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Sexually, say what you want with your partner. Say what you want. Eat what you want for dinner. Don't eat the thing you think you should eat for dinner. Do what you really want and treat yourself in the way that you want to be treated. It's also like, I wanted to stay in the job. I loved the job. I wasn't walking away from the job. I loved the job and I loved the job until it felt like there wasn't enough juice to squeeze out of the lemon. We had made 110 episodes and by the time I left and they offered us two more years. I, I had already started my production company. I had set up my first show and I was greenlit and getting ready to make it.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  So when they came with two more years, I felt beholden to the other job. And I, you know, I think a common misconception is I left to go have babies. That's could not be further from the truth. I left to go make the show I had been developing. That our showrunner, John Wells, had encouraged me to kind of get in the driver's seat of my own career and make my own shows and make things. And I left with a lot of grief and sorrow because I would, I would miss all those people. And I couldn't believe that they were going to go on the journey without me. But I was also really excited. I felt like I was launching and getting ready to start this new chapter of my life.

• 53:12Alex Cooper?

  Also, I, I, I wasn't aware of that rumor. I'm like, that is, that is so on the nose. Emmy of what we're talking about, we're like, of course it was because.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  She left the industry to go have babies. She moved back to New York.

• 53:24Alex Cooper?

  Obviously, yeah, obviously.

• 53:27Alex Cooper?

  Um, I want to talk about dating.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that topic.

• 53:31Alex Cooper?

  Okay, when you look back on your life.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:34Alex Cooper?

  Do you notice any patterns?

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:37Alex Cooper?

  Or, okay, you're like, where do I begin? Put me in, coach. Let me write you a dissertation right now. Patterns or similarities between the guys that you were drawn to in your single and early dating days?

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Intensity.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Intensity?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Intensity? I don't know.

• 54:05Alex Cooper?

  Explain.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know. My first great love was when I was about 18. And he was the older brother of one of my closest friends. So I had known him a little bit from when I was younger. And he asked her to ask me if he could ask me out. And I thought it was so cute. And she was kind of like LOL, like this is going to work out. Like, you should totally go out with him. So I did. And he picked me up in a Hummer, which I thought was ridiculous. And I told him immediately, this is a ridiculous vehicle for New York City.

• 54:46Alex Cooper?

  In New York?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 54:48Alex Cooper?

  This man owned a Hummer in New York City?

• 54:51Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 54:52Alex Cooper?

  He thought it was a flex, though.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 54:54Alex Cooper?

  What color was it?

• 54:56Speaker 01

  It was like light green or gray.

• 54:58Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  It was not amazing.

• 54:59Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Um, but I gave him shit for it. And, um, he liked that, so I liked that.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  And then the second date, he, um, oh, he let me drive the car. I had had no license and I had never driven a car. And after dinner, he was like, do you want to drive, you know, yourself home?

• 55:22Alex Cooper?

  Do you want to drive the Hummer?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Do you want to drive the Hummer? And I was like, I don't have a license. And he's like, I'll teach you how to drive. And I was like, what? This is great. And he was like, you got to accelerate into the turns. And I was like, oh, this guy's intense. Like, love this. Um, we didn't kiss. Um, and I started dating him when I had shot.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Day After Tomorrow and Phantom of the Opera, but neither of them had come out yet. So is this some like quiet little chapter in my life before everything kind of exploded? And the second date, I was on the press tour for The Day After Tomorrow and

• 55:54Alex Cooper?

  What a good movie.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  He, thank you.

• 55:57Alex Cooper?

  Oh, such a good movie.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  So fun to make. Um, I love Jake Gyllenhaal. And we, we were on the press tour in Paris and he flew to Paris to take me on the second date.

• 56:08Alex Cooper?

  On the second date, this man flew to Paris?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. He was 20. I was 18, I think. And he said, I've got a surprise for you. And he shut down the Palace of Versailles and took me on a date there.

• 56:23Alex Cooper?

  Emmy.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  It was, it was epic.

• 56:26Alex Cooper?

  He shut down Versailles for you?

• 56:30Speaker 01

  And it was misty and raining.

• 56:33Alex Cooper?

  And you're 18?

• 56:34Speaker 01

  And we kissed for the first time at the Palace of Versailles. And I was like, this is the rest of my life, right?

• 56:42Alex Cooper?

  How is that a second date?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Intense, intense.

• 56:46Alex Cooper?

  Very intense. And when you look back, like, what does that intensity in a relationship like really feel like and ignite in you?

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know. I, I'm also drawn to people that are very good at what they do. His family was art dealers and he was extremely educated in art and history and spoke multiple languages and was like a fisherman and could do a lot of things. Um, and I found that really interesting.

• 57:24Alex Cooper?

  I mean, I, I completely agree. I think when you can be intellectually stimulated, but also watching someone be really good at a craft, it's extremely attractive.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  And also like, I don't like opacity. I don't want to wonder if you like me or not. I don't want to play games. I don't want to be in a situationship. I don't want to be like, is he in a, no. I will know if I like you and I want to know if you like me.

• 57:49Alex Cooper?

  But, date two.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:52Alex Cooper?

  Paris, Versailles.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:54Alex Cooper?

  We're shutting it down.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:56Alex Cooper?

  It leaves.

• 57:58Alex Cooper?

  A fall off opportunity because what is date three, four, five? And where do we go from here when the intensity is so intense?

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:06Alex Cooper?

  Obviously, you're saying you saw patterns.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  I mean, we were together for almost two years.

• 58:12Alex Cooper?

  And at 18, that's pretty long.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:15Alex Cooper?

  When did you have a come down from that relationship?

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Well, I, maybe we were together for a year and a half. It felt like a long time. I, it was the first time I moved out of my house where I'd grown up with my mom. And I moved into his house with his family, his whole family. So my friend, they all lived on different floors of the house. So my friend that I had grown up with, she was like on the third floor. We were on the second floor. The parents were on the top floor. It was like all a big family in a house.

• 58:43Alex Cooper?

  I love how the people, when they were trying to cast you for Shameless, they're like, I don't know if you're really her. Everything in your life so far is like, I am Fiona Gallagher in a different extent.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  And then the first time I went away to make a movie, when we were together, I was going to be gone for six months, just in LA. And it was the first time we've really been apart. And we had been to the Oscars together. We had really kind of enmeshed in each other's lives. And my world had really kind of changed and exploded. And he had been along, you know, for the ride on that with me. And I was going to be away for six months and he worked in New York. And I remember on a call, he said something like, well, do you think you're going to like continue to do more of this? And I said, hopefully.

• 59:28Alex Cooper?

  That's the plan.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  And that was not the answer he was looking for. And so I was really heartbroken. I, I remember I cried for hours, for days, days. I was very heartbroken.

• 59:41Alex Cooper?

  Because you're basically like, do I pick my career or the guy I'm in love with?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was like, well, my identity cannot be the cost. My.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Being an artist, which I've been since I'm seven years old, cannot be the cost for being in love.

• 1:00:01Alex Cooper?

  Did you find that you continued to crave intensity again?

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00:08Alex Cooper?

  Did you slow things down ever? Did you ever have a slow burn, Emmy? Or no?

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  My husband is a slow burn.

• 1:00:14Alex Cooper?

  We're gonna get there.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Alex Cooper?

  We're gonna get there. Don't fast forward.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:18Alex Cooper?

  Okay, hold on, hold on. So we're still in the like, you were looking for intensity.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Alex Cooper?

  You would find yourself enjoying it in the beginning.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:26Alex Cooper?

  Eventually it would burn out.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:28Alex Cooper?

  Um, 21.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:31Alex Cooper?

  You got married.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Oops.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Oops.

• 1:00:36Alex Cooper?

  Oops. Okay. Tell me about what happened.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  You know that smoke detector that you're supposed to hear in your head? Well, I heard it and I ignored it.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  After I dated Versailles Guy, who we will call him now, Versailles Guy.

• 1:00:58Alex Cooper?

  I love it forever.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Who's now, by the way, happily married, lovely kids, and I'm still friends with his sister. Love that for him.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  I dated a guy whose favorite pastime was breaking up with me in public.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  We would like to order the meal and then he would say things to me like,

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  "Just feel like you're growing so much from knowing me, but like, I don't know that I'm growing that much from knowing you."

• 1:01:30Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. And like, on average, how many times do you think he did this to you?

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Two or three.

• 1:01:38Alex Cooper?

  Emmy?

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Two or three.

• 1:01:40Alex Cooper?

  And you would just sit there and like?

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  I really liked him. I really liked him.

• 1:01:44Alex Cooper?

  And this is then?

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  He was really, he was really talented. I was very attracted to his talent, his power on stage. We had done Romeo and Juliet together and he had been Mercutio and Mercutio was just like a real panty dropper. And I was just, yeah, I really liked him. And so there were like two very consecutive rough heartbreaks.

• 1:02:09Alex Cooper?

  How did your mother feel about you getting married at 21?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Well, she felt great about it because she didn't know.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:19Alex Cooper?

  When did you find out?

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  I started dating Justin and he worked at Interscope Records that I was signed to.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  And we were dating for maybe a couple of months. We were suddenly, we liked each other. And then I got Dragon Ball Evolution and I was gonna go away for six months to Mexico, to Durango, Mexico, the middle of Mexico, and make this movie. And I remember the day that I was going away to make the movie, he said something to me like, "I don't know if the relationship is gonna survive the distance. So like, maybe we should break up or get married." How could I make this up?

• 1:03:09Alex Cooper?

  At me?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I literally had a flight that night to Durango, Mexico. And so I think the decisions that we-

• 1:03:17Alex Cooper?

  She's dead. She's dead. I am obsessed with you. You're like, so it had, we had to get married?

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Alex Cooper?

  So from either break up or get married?

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, at that moment, I thought to myself, well, I'm just coming off these two really rough heartbreaks. Like abandonment is my core wound. I don't want, I don't want that. That hurts me. And I literally thought, my 21-year-old, 20, 20-year-old?

• 1:03:51Alex Cooper?

  21.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Maybe?

• 1:03:53Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  My 21-year-old brain thought,

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  you know, divorce doesn't seem that complicated? Like, it's probably pretty straightforward.

• 1:04:03Alex Cooper?

  How did that work out?

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  It wasn't not straightforward.

• 1:04:06Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Like I, but, but no, but it, you know, and I, I, I knew that I-

• 1:04:13Alex Cooper?

  Not you planning the divorce before-

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  100%. And so we, he, he literally printed out like a marriage contract online and got some guy on the internet to like come over to my house.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  I found like a white turtleneck that was in my closet and like threw it on because like, I was like, this is appropriate, right?

• 1:04:32Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Literally not hearing the smoke detector in my head being like, "Don't do this. You don't have to do this." No guy should be like, "Let's marri-" you know what I mean? It was my intention not to tell anyone because I knew in my gut it wasn't right.

• 1:04:46Alex Cooper?

  How long were you married for?

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  I think we're married for, oh, I was away for six months. When I got back, it became abundantly clear we weren't a match in any way.

• 1:04:57Alex Cooper?

  Did he come to visit you in Mexico?

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:05:00Alex Cooper?

  Oh.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  I don't remember that happening.

• 1:05:03Alex Cooper?

  That's interesting, because he's like-

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  It's just like, not that long of a flight. I don't know what, like, everyone was very dramatic. I don't know, like, it's literally just like, go, you, people go to Mexico for the weekend, like, what are we talking about?

• 1:05:12Alex Cooper?

  I love that it's like, if you leave, like, we're not gonna make it, so we have to get married, so you think-

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  It was so dramatic.

• 1:05:17Alex Cooper?

  Okay, okay, so you come back, and then eventually you're like, this isn't working.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  This isn't the thing.

• 1:05:21Alex Cooper?

  When did you tell your mom?

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  I told my mom, hey, I'm breaking up with Justin, and I need a lawyer. And she was like, you did not. And I was like, I did. And my mom has always been somebody that mobilizes. My mom is like, like, if anyone is going through a breakup, my mom is not employed right now. So if you need someone to show up, she'll like, send you for a manicure and be like, I have the U-Haul. Like, go take care of yourself.

• 1:05:49Alex Cooper?

  What is your mom's first name?

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Cheryl.

• 1:05:51Alex Cooper?

  Cheryl is gonna be there to be like, girls, let's get the divorce papers. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay, so she mobilized for you?

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, she mobilized.

• 1:05:59Alex Cooper?

  And you got the fuck out. Almost a decade later,

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Alex Cooper?

  you met your now husband

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:05Alex Cooper?

  on a movie set. What drew you to him? Was there intensity there? Tell me everything.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  We met on my birthday. We had a meeting about a movie that he had written, the first movie that he was ever gonna make. And when a director offers you a movie, they send you an email through your agents, and there's usually the script, maybe a lookbook, and usually a letter that expresses why they think you're right for the movie, and tells you a little bit about the movie. And sometimes with a first-time filmmaker, they'll tell you a little bit about themselves. So.

• 1:06:54Alex Cooper?

  No.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I brought you the letter, because I knew we were gonna talk about relationships.

• 1:07:00Alex Cooper?

  I am sad. No one has ever done this on Call Her Daddy. Emmy?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  I have the letter.

• 1:07:08Alex Cooper?

  Where is my popcorn?

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Oh! I'm not gonna read the whole thing, because my hus- Ben is long-winded. His films are long and his letter is long. But this is the letter that he wrote me. I'm gonna read some excerpts of it. Give it to us. Oh, I'm so ready. So here's the thing. You're a beautiful, successful actress. Thank you. With a long career ahead of you, doing my movie would require you to take a gamble on somebody you don't know, so I'll give you a rough sketch of whom we're dealing with. I'm a screenwriter reluctantly living in Los Angeles wishing I were in Manhattan. I'm tall, but I hunch. My parents are Egyptian, but I was born in New Jersey. I'm too nerdy to be a hipster and too cool to be a nerd, so I have friends and enemies

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  on both sides of the aisle. The entire situation fills me with a lot of anxiety, a lot. I do not care much for money. I also don't have much of it, given my incredible Dartmouth, NYU student loan debt.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  I also want to make movies because I have to. I'll explain. I was in therapy the other day analyzing the very subject. I've wanted to be a filmmaker ever since I was eight, and it's been a long, arduous journey to get there. And I'm telling all of this to Cottle. That's my therapist's name. It's pronounced like "cottle." How fitting. Anyway, Cottle sits there all intense and pensive like he normally is and says the same thing he normally says. This is just your career, Sam. There's more to life than your work. I hated him for using that word. I finally told him, "Stop using that word. This is not a career." That session turned ugly and weird, but it also turned out to be very important.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  It's when we realized I don't look at this like a job. It's the same way a mom wants to be a mom, a dad wants to be a dad, or a pet wants to be petted.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  It's a want that just is. If there were a parallel universe where filmmaking was the equivalent of a $30,000 a year factory job, I'd be there. And I was like, who is this? That sounds-

• 1:09:14Alex Cooper?

  I'm immediately into it. He's like, I'm in therapy. I'm like, check, check.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  I love my job. I'm tall, but I hunch. I'm like, who is this voice?

• 1:09:24Alex Cooper?

  But I'm not a nerd. I'm not a hipster, like all the, everything. So when you get that-

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:29Alex Cooper?

  What is your first reaction?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  I was sitting in the hair and makeup trailer at Shameless and I was reading the letter before I had read the script. And I turned to Shanola Hampton and Sharon Rivera, our head of hair, and was like, can I read you this letter? I think I'm supposed to know this person. And there was something that was just like immediately familiar or intriguing or something. So I read the script and it was undeniable. And I was like, who is this person? And then I met him and he showed up in a American Apparel hoodie in a vintage Prius. And he had lookbooks upon lookbooks upon lookbooks about what the film was going to be,

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  how he was gonna make it. And I was immediately impressed by his

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  work ethic and his vision and thought he was a really interesting person.

• 1:10:23Alex Cooper?

  What did it feel like after you are like, I am so impressed with this person? I am already into it by his writing. Then you meet him, see him for the first time, hear his voice. When does it turn from work to romance?

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  We knew each other for about a year. We developed the movie, went and found financing for the movie, put the movie together, he cast it. And then

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  we started, we had spent time together over that year.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  And I remember I started thinking about life through the lens of him. I would be eating a sandwich and I'd be like, I wonder if Sam likes tuna. Or I'd be like, you know, I drove past a museum and was like, I wonder if Sam would like to see the Kubrick exhibit. I wonder if Sam would think that's funny. And- I was so curious about him and I I had spent so long trying to find someone that I thought would understand me when I realized maybe what I'm after is trying to find somebody I never want to stop trying to understand. Like I was so fascinated by him. And then

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  about a week before I made the movie, he came over to my house for dinner and he said,

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  I've just been to therapy and I really have to get this off my chest. Cottle and I talked about this and I just have to tell you that I love you. And we hadn't even started the movie yet. I was like huh? Um, I did not say it back. I did not know how I felt. Um,

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  and then we started the movie a week later.

• 1:12:26Alex Cooper?

  What did you say back?

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Bon appétit. I don't really remember saying much of anything. I think he said something like, but I but I don't mean it like that. What I mean is like, I mean, I do, but I also don't like, obviously, I'm me and you're you. And I'm sure that, like, you know, you could never love me. And one day, I'm sure that I'll be at your wedding and I'll always love you from afar. And nothing ever has to happen. Obviously, it won't. And I just needed to say that.

• 1:12:56Alex Cooper?

  And then the rest is history eventually.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the second that I got on set and I saw him,

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  he was so kind and capable. And he played really good music at Video Village. And he gave really good notes. And so suddenly, he went from someone, suddenly, he was really sexy. His like, quiet power was like, oh, no. So then I said, after the first week, I think I love you too. And he was like, no, you don't. And I was like, yes, I fucking do. And he was like, okay, here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna kiss you. And you're gonna be like, I don't feel anything. And then we're just gonna go back to the way. And I was like, what are you doing? Just do it already. And he's like, but it can't mess up the movie. And I was like, okay, it won't.

• 1:13:45Alex Cooper?

  And then it didn't mess up the movie.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  And then we kissed and we've basically, we broke the couch.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  We broke the couch. We had an L sofa.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  And we broke the couch.

• 1:13:58Alex Cooper?

  We broke the couch.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that was 14 years ago.

• 1:14:01Alex Cooper?

  14 years ago.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:05Alex Cooper?

  Can you talk about how you've said throughout our conversation today, you know, like I have these abandonment abandonment wounds.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:13Alex Cooper?

  And, you know, I know your relationship with your or lack thereof, relationship with your father was extremely complicated. Like, how did you finding such a stable, incredible partner that you love so much? Like, have you been able to look at that relationship with your father? And whether it's heal some wounds or just like, how do you feel about it now?

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Oh, it's such a good question. My relationship with my husband and watching him be the world's greatest girl dad. He was like made to be a girl dad. Um, it's the ultimate healing. The ultimate. And my husband is so loyal and so kind and so giving and so everything I've really ever wanted.

• 1:15:01Alex Cooper?

  That's so beautiful. I didn't even think about that. Like you're getting, it's, it's healing watching him do to your daughters what

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  I didn't get.

• 1:15:09Alex Cooper?

  You didn't get.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Alex Cooper?

  And to watch him do it so incredibly.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, effortlessly.

• 1:15:13Alex Cooper?

  And to do it to such a caliber that like you're.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  He would never, ever leave her.

• 1:15:19Alex Cooper?

  Wow, that's really beautiful. Cause I feel like I'm sure there's so many women watching who have complicated relationships or don't have relationships with their father. And that is such a, from experience with my friends who have a similar situation where you're like, I don't have the relationship and I, and some of my friends like, I don't even want it. But trying to find your way forward with those male figures in your life and like put in place, like what that would look like in your ideal world, to be able to like get it and to watch it, how healing that must feel.

• 1:15:58Alex Cooper?

  I'm so happy for you.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  It's moving.

• 1:16:00Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:16:02Alex Cooper?

  Have you ever reached out or ever spoken to your father again since?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:07Alex Cooper?

  You're younger? Okay.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  I met my dad when I was four, but I wasn't told he was my dad. And

• 1:16:12Alex Cooper?

  Why was that?

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  He told my mom that he wouldn't come if she told me who he was.

• 1:16:18Alex Cooper?

  So you thought you were just meeting like a

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  I, he, a guy came, one of my mom's friends came to take me for dinner for my birthday. And I was four or five, so I didn't ask many questions about it. I didn't really get it. And this guy came and took me for dinner and we went for spaghetti. And I don't remember much of it. The only thing I remember is I, you know, kids cut their spaghetti. And I remember he said, we don't cut our spaghetti. And I went home and my mom was like, how was it? And I was like, he said, we don't cut our spaghetti. And she was like, okay. So then a couple of years later, after hearing at school and kindergarten and first and second grade, you know, who's your dad? Why? You know, it wasn't, it wasn't common to have a single parent household, at least

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  the, when I was growing up, it wasn't as common. All the families that I grew up in looked very traditional and conventional. And so I felt that absence very much. And so I started asking my mom more and more, who's my dad? Just tell me who's my dad? And she's like, do you remember that guy that came to take you for dinner? And I was like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy is my dad? And she's like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy is your dad? And I was devastated. I was like, I didn't like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy. She's like, I know.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Alex Cooper?

  And then did you ever?

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  I did, I did. I met him once when I was eight. He took me to Casper and he fell asleep. But I did, but did develop a deep crush on Devon Sawa. So the day was not for naught.

• 1:17:51Alex Cooper?

  Completely lost?

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Um, and then I didn't really see him again until I was on Shameless in my twenties. And, um, we tried a couple of times. But he is just not really interested in loving me.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  But my husband is amazing with my daughter and getting to watch him play with her, pick her up from school, be so incredibly devoted as a dad and to my son too.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Getting to watch the fact that I got to give her something that I didn't get is, I get to live vicariously through that and that's enough for me.

• 1:18:35Alex Cooper?

  It's beautiful. Intimacy.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:38Alex Cooper?

  How has your understanding of intimacy changed since your early twenties?

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Well, I'm so much better at asking for what I want now. I, you know, that, that little voice inside of you that says, I'd like to be touched like this, or I'd like this, or I don't like that, or that feels, I felt that my voice felt quiet and stifled when I was younger. I felt shame about expressing desire. I felt shame about expressing specifics that I wanted about using the words, but you have to tell somebody what you want. And also, what you want on Monday doesn't mean you want it on Thursday. And it's okay to say, yeah, I wanted that on Monday. I don't want that today. You know,

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  like, it's okay to grow and change. And I feel like I have a lot more comfort. And part of that was my pregnancy because my hormones were so strong and I felt so sexual. I was so down that it was, the voice was so loud in my head. It was screaming that I couldn't ignore it.

• 1:19:54Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Pandora Jewelry. Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry.

• 1:20:37Alex Cooper?

  I feel like the best gifts are always the ones that feel really personal, right? Like, anyone can buy you something nice, but when someone gives you a gift that is actually meaningful, you appreciate it so much more. And that's what I do love about Pandora. They have so many pieces that you can really just make your own, from festive charms to personalized engravings and jewelry that can represent the people and the moments that mean the most to you. So whether you're shopping for your partner, or your mom, your best friend, you can find something that really is specific to them. Maybe it's a charm that makes you think of the trip that you guys took together once, or maybe it's an engraving for your anniversary, or just a piece that feels like them the

• 1:21:22Alex Cooper?

  second you see it. Pandora makes it so easy to give a gift that feels thoughtful and personal, and makes every holiday moment even more meaningful and special. Because at the end of the day, the best gifts aren't just about the piece itself, but it's the intention and the story behind them. Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop now at pandora.net or visit your closest Pandora store. Can we talk about motherhood?

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, my favorite topic.

• 1:21:48Alex Cooper?

  I'm pregnant, obviously. And I feel like a lot of the advice that I'm getting for parenting advice, a lot of people just keep saying like, oh, my God, you kind of just have to figure things out. Like, that's, people can try to prepare you and tell you what's gonna happen. How did you personally embrace the uncertainty of not having all of the answers and not being able to look at the page? Like you said, you do your script and fill in the blanks and prepare and be ready and then get onto that set and like, take it 100% like a pro. You kind of can't do that from what I understand with motherhood, Emmy. Tell me.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  You can and you can't. Like, you can prepare, but then you never know how things are gonna hit you. And there's like so much instinct at play. You will just know, at least for me, I can only say from my experience, I saw my child, I knew my child, and...

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  I was so taken. I, I, you know, I had the same thing where, that I said about my mom. I wanted to be a mother that was worthy of being this child's mother. And then I realized I'm trying too hard. I'm trying too hard to be worthy of anybody else. I just gotta be me.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  And

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  and women are always told, you can have it all. You can, but that actually means you have to do it all. And it comes at a cost. And often that cost is not your job and not your kid, but you. So when my daughter was 10 months old,

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  this is an insane story. When my daughter was 10 months old, this is what my therapist calls the pancake problem.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  I was going to shoot

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  on the crowded room and I had like a 16 hour shoot day. And I was waking up before she was gonna wake up and I was coming home way before, way after she was gonna be asleep. And I was like, how will my daughter know that I love her today? She will think I don't love her today. She's 10 months old. She doesn't know what's going on, right? Literally doesn't know what's going on. So I thought, okay, the car is gonna pick me up in like 20 minutes, but I have to do some things that my daughter knows I love her today. So I have to take a shower. I have to get in the car in 20 minutes, but I'm gonna make my daughter pancakes from scratch also before I leave.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  This is

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  so I turn on the stove. I make the batter.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  I turn it on low. I put three little pancakes in the pan. And um, I set a timer on my phone for three minutes because that's generally how long until you got a flip. I ran to the shower, got in the shower, shampooed, washed it out. Ding ding ding, the timer goes off. Time to flip the pancakes. Gotta get out of the shower. But I still have to condition, so I'll have to get back to the shower. This is insane, but this is also so postpartum. Like I was like in it the first year.

• 1:25:00Alex Cooper?

  I'm picturing you like wet towel, like running back and forth.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  No, I'm naked.

• 1:25:03Alex Cooper?

  You're naked.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  But I'm naked. I don't time for a towel. The pancakes are on and I'm in the shower and I gotta be in the car in 15 minutes. Run to the pancakes. They're perfect. Flip them. Gorgeous. Golden brown perfection. Sprint back to the shower, but I left the shower door just a crack open. So the water is on the floor. So I slip and my foot gets caught under the shower door. And I hear like a crack. And now I'm like down on the shower floor. And I then scream out like, someone turn the pancakes off. And then like army crawl to the kitchen. The pancakes were fine. I then called work and was like, hey,

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a couple of minutes late and I need to switch my pickup to Lenox Hill Hospital. Probably like just like, just like 20 minutes late. I'm so sorry. I just need like probably a quick x-ray. And I'll be right, I'll just a quick little x-ray and I'll be right there. By the way, I didn't hold camera. I was like, I was completely there on time. I got the x-ray. My daughter got the pancakes. And at the end of the day, I was like, something's gotta change.

• 1:26:10Alex Cooper?

  Right, right, right. Cause you're like, okay, no, I'm listening to the story. I'm like, I thought that we were like, we had to call in to work and we're like out for work.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:26:17Alex Cooper?

  She got the pancakes.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:18Alex Cooper?

  She did the work.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  In the, in a boot.

• 1:26:20Alex Cooper?

  And she lost her mind.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  In a boot. Yeah, a hundred percent. And so this was a lesson I learned that year. And got really, really good at being like, I'm gonna do less. But it's something that comes up for me a lot. Like just last week, I took, I went to set. I shot my first scene. I had like the middle of the day off. I took my kids to the zoo. I took them on a zip line. We got lunch. I went back to set, did my last scenes, went back, did bath time, bedtime, got on a Zoom. And I was like, I'm depleted. I gotta... So this pancake issue I think is real for a lot of women, a lot of moms, who really want to show up on every level in their lives. They're showing up at work. They're showing up for their kids. No one is feeling it, right? But they're feeling it.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  And so I think for me, the biggest lesson is that sometimes it's okay to do a little bit less.

• 1:27:14Alex Cooper?

  I know, I feel like that's what everyone's like, but then I feel so guilty of like, one area has to suffer. And like, has that impacted the way that you view your career and success at all?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, motherhood hasn't made me any less desirous of storytelling or ambitious.

• 1:27:40Alex Cooper?

  Clearly not. That's why we're here today. We're about to get there.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it's made me more strategic and clearer about when it's worth, when the story is worth me missing even the smallest moments of my kids' life. Like a normal day, I wake up and I take them on the public bus and I do drop off. And if I go to set, I go to set. And if not, I go about my day and I pick up. Like, I want to be in my kids' lives as much as possible.

• 1:28:08Alex Cooper?

  Your new project?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Alex Cooper?

  The show Furious?

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:13Alex Cooper?

  It is your production company's second project?

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Alex Cooper?

  And you are both the executive producer and you are the star.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:21Alex Cooper?

  So congratulations.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:28:22Alex Cooper?

  Doing both. Um, I am so interested to hear you talk more about it because it is obviously so like female-led. And I know that's what your production company focuses on.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:35Alex Cooper?

  But just tell us a little bit more about it from your perspective. And what drew you to it?

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  I really wanted to go back and look at old films that had good skeletons of what could make a TV show and was really, really looking for a character that would be as rich and as deep and as fascinating as Fiona that I could play for years and years. And it's a really fascinating world. It tells the story of my character, Alice, who is a former NYPD detective, which is a very prestigious job. It is not a job that people leave. And Alice has left the police department because she's been in an abusive relationship with another officer who she's known since her teenage years.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  And she started over, um, at the FBI. So she's a new FBI agent who's really gonna have to work her way up. And she stumbles upon this idea that There's a murder that is connected to an old case that she had at the NYPD. So we are simultaneously following this serial killer, this really fascinating, mysterious woman, who has been also a victim of violence and is kind of on a mission to enact vengeance and get justice for herself. And Alice's plan to get justice on a much larger scale.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  And we'll notice that the women are actually more similar than they are different. And I was really fascinated too by what happens for women in law enforcement when they need to make a complaint on their own behalf, like who do you call when your partner is hurting you? And is also in law enforcement, you call 911 and who answers the phone? The partner of your partner, whose responsibility is to watch each other's back on the street. It is incredibly complicated, dynamic, and very charged. And for Alice, who stumbles upon this case and then gets back involved with the NYPD,

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  who she's been running from, to have to see that former person at your new job when you've done everything to get away from them. And also, the relationship between Alice and her ex is one that had violence and control, but also love and desire and loyalty and history for a very, very long time. So it's a very, very complicated, like fertile ground and one that I was like, I could dig here for a long time.

• 1:31:18Alex Cooper?

  Well, I, I agree. I, my team and I were talking about how we just love these female characters. And I know the show gets its title from the Greek goddess of vengeance.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Furious, yeah. Yes, multiple goddesses. Yeah. Who's wanna enact vengeance?

• 1:31:35Alex Cooper?

  Can you explain what really started to interest you about female fury and rage?

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I think women have a lot to be furious about.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  That felt cheesy, but I didn't mean it that way. So that's the title of the show.

• 1:31:55Alex Cooper?

  It's okay.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  No, I think.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  I think sometimes, as we see with these characters, our power does come from being underestimated.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  For both of these women, they have to work in the shadows outside the conventions, and they both exhibit very risky behavior.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  And I think that that's why they're fascinating to watch.

• 1:32:22Alex Cooper?

  Something that I love that you do a little differently is the central conflict, yes, being at first between these two women. Obviously, there's so many layers to it. But I feel like neither woman neatly fits into the hero or the villain box, which I love that so much. And I'm curious, like, what interested you in kind of putting out a show that does live in the gray area?

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  I love that. I mean, I think that's so delicious. I think that

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  there's so much more kind of juice to be found in moral gray areas than in people who

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  seem one way, but then surprise you and can be other ways.

• 1:33:09Alex Cooper?

  No, I completely agree. Are there any themes that you have been really pulled to in your life recently? Or any, I don't know, anything just like thematically that you're like, oh, that's also something I want to definitely explore in the future in a project or whatever it be that you're like, I think that's something as a woman, especially with my female-led company, that I want to kind of take on.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm interested in exploring all aspects of contemporary womanhood. Anything that causes us shame, anything that makes me uncomfortable or confused or to feel some sort of way, that's what I move towards. Certainly roles that scare me, and this one did.

• 1:33:53Alex Cooper?

  I have so much respect for how much you pour into your roles. And obviously, even here, you say, like, I wanted to find something that was as intense for me and like brought it to life, like Fiona, because that Those are huge shoes to fill. Everyone like thinks of that role and they're like, oh my God, it was so iconic. And so the fact that you have such a passion for this show coming out, I know it's like, how exciting as yes, an actress, but also on the back end, being behind the camera and bringing this to life. Um, I'm so happy for you.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:34:30Alex Cooper?

  It's really cool. I literally was just like a sponge wanting to talk to you about everything. And I know we went all over the place today, but that was by design because I was like, I need to, I know we only have so much time, but I need to try to cherry pick every little thing from you.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  Talking to you too, very much.

• 1:34:42Alex Cooper?

  Thank you for sitting with me and just having some girl chat.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. I appreciated it very much.

• 1:35:04Alex Cooper?

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