540: Saved By The Corps. From A Path of Destruction, to Success. With Ben Ingram.

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Ben Ingram was headed toward prison or worse. Drugs, street fights, and survival mode defined his youth—until one decision changed everything: joining the Marines. Warriors In Need < https://www.warriorsinneed.org Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 540 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. You may have heard me offer advice, especially for people getting out of the military, because it can be a rough transition. And one of the core pieces of advice that I give to people that are getting out of the military is to find a new mission.

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  Find a new mission. That's a really good move because in the military, when you're in the military, you have a mission, you have a purpose, you have a goal, and every day you wake up and you're applying yourself and the people around you are applying themselves to accomplishing this mission. And then one day you get out and it's gone.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  It's gone. Poof.

• 0:44Jocko Willink?

  And that lack of a mission has caused quite a few, quite a few veterans over the year, years to go down a bad path and it's not good at all. So you have to find a new mission.

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  Now that right there is often easier said than done, right? Oh, just go find a new mission. Like it's just going to pop up. It can be challenging to do that. Well, Marine Corps Vet, Ben Ingram, recognized the same thing that veterans need a new mission. And he has one for them. Which is awesome. To be able to give a veteran a new mission is an outstanding thing to be able to do. And we're going to talk about that today.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  The military and the Marine Corps specifically got Ben on track when he was heading down a bad path. And it's interesting because we actually grew up in the same town. I was thinking I went to high school with his sister Heidi, but it wasn't just high school. I went through like every single grade, you know, she was my age and I went through first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, 10th, 11th, and 12th grade with his sister Heidi. And Ben was maybe a year or two behind us. And this was in a small, small rural town in, in America. And when you're in a small town in America, you have lots of opportunities. And some of the opportunities that you're presented with are very good.

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  And some of the opportunities that you presented with are not very good. And depending on which of those opportunities you take. Growing up can be rough, send you down a bad path and Ben had some rough times growing up. Made some bad choices along the way, but thankfully. Praise God, he joined the Marine Corps and now he's paying it back by helping veterans with a career after the military. So Ben, we'll get into all of it. Thanks for coming by, man. Good to see you.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Hey, thank you so much for having me. I can't tell you how much I appreciate being here and praise to God.

• 2:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's funny because I think you came to the muster a few years ago. And you came up and you said, you're probably not going to remember, but you went to school with my sister and I was like, oh, who? And you go Heidi Ingram. I go, you were as if I wasn't going to remember Heidi Ingram. Very cool. And, you know, there was, we graduated, I think we had a graduating class in my high school of like 80 or 85 people. So, and like I said, spent 12 years with all these kids. So it wasn't like I wasn't going to remember Heidi Ingram. And she was, she was always kind of a front runner, you know?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, Heidi was awesome.

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  She was a great athlete.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  She held records for a long time at the high school.

• 3:43Jocko Willink?

  And she was academically, like she did good.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  She was on a good path. And that's why when you started telling me that your path wasn't quite as, wasn't quite as productive as a child. I was like, okay, but you, but I can see, like I said, you know, you're in a small town. There's all kinds of different opportunities that present themselves and depends which ones you take. So let's get into it. Let's talk about it. You're growing up. What were your mom and dad doing?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, uh, early on dad was a welder. He worked for a company called Treadwell as a, as a welder, building oxygen generators for nuclear submarines. Uh, and mom was-

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  Was he a vet? Was he in the Marine Corps?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a Marine Corps veteran. Um, I didn't know a lot about, and I still don't know a lot about his service, but, uh, yeah, he served in Vietnam from, uh, through sixty-eight and sixty-nine. Um, and, uh, he was motor T. So he drove a fuel truck in, uh, in Vietnam, I think out at Da Nang. Uh, mom was working our homestead mostly, you know, as a small kid, five-year-old, six-year-old. I, you know, I remember always out there in the, in the fields, you know, in the, in the, um, our hundred acre freaking, it was only five acres, but it felt like a hundred acres when you were five years old, but out in that garden that was endless, you know, working the strawberry patches or something. Yeah, so that was the early days.

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  And then how'd it go from there? So then you had Heidi, which was, how much older is Heidi than you? Like a year and a half or something?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's a year older.

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  You guys are a tight shock group, huh?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, Heidi was a year older. Um, and then Chris was two years younger than me. And, uh, you know, Hi- uh, Heidi and I ran hard for a few years and, and, uh, you know, Chris kind of tagged along. He got drug into a little bit of my mischief and, you know, but, um, yeah, it, it kind of came to an end when dad left at, uh, when I was about ten years old. So, you know, mom had to go to work. Um, she worked at a, ended up working at a Islet factory down in, uh, Thomaston, Connecticut during the day. At night she worked at a liquor store and then on the weekend she was, uh, she was at the general store. So we were last key kids early on. You know, there's three of us there, you know, just trying to make our way and get ourselves off to school and that kind of stuff.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  And she was able to hang on to the house though? Do you guys were able to stay there?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mom is, you know, God bless her. She's awesome. She did, she threw everything, you know, she had at it. Um.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I think back, I love my mom for doing that, you know. Sometimes I think, you know, she didn't really need to do all that, but she did, you know, held on to the house, the farm, tried to, you know, keep, keep the whole family together best she could. Uh, but she struggled to do it and she did the best she could, but there was no supervision for us. So, you know, shit went south for some of us really quick.

• 6:26Jocko Willink?

  So what did that look like, man?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Ah, man, uh, you know, dad was an alcoholic and, you know, towards the end before, you know, before he left, a lot of dishes breaking downstairs, a lot of, you know, it just, it was, it was painful and, and I just remember being afraid of him all the time, you know? And, uh, you know, a little bit of abuse inside the house, you know, probably more so for mom than anybody else. Um, and then after dad left, it kind of started coming, coming from the outside. We became really easy targets, being really poor, you know, living in a small town. So, um, we got, we got hit pretty hard, you know, both inside and, and outside the house. And, you know, for, for Heidi, you know, she just doubled

• 7:12Speaker 01

  down and, you know, went, you know, went sports and swimming and all in with academics. But for me, I just went into a dark hole, you know? And I would say by the time I was 11 years old, I was, you know, sneaking liquor out of the cabinet and, you know, probably by 12, 13 raiding the neighbors' medicine cabinets and things like that. So just into a dark hole for me. Um, I'd like to say I remember what Chris was doing, um, probably following me around a little bit, but, um, a lot of chaos, a lot of, you know, a lot of ugliness there at the house for a while.

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  And you end up hanging out with a lot of Heidi's friends too, because these were my friends as well. You know, these like the whole, the whole crew of guys we were talking about before you hit record. These were all guys that I grew up with, all, all great dudes, you know, but just hardworking, you know, kind of standard American young kids, man, getting after it.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was almost, um, Sandlot, you know, esque. We, uh,

• 8:09Speaker 01

  We would, um, you know, like playing hockey was a big deal for us. We didn't have a lot of sports. Um, I played a little soccer when, when I was young, like, you know, eight, nine years old. Um, later on after dad left, um, no sports. I wasn't good at any sports. I couldn't throw a ball. I couldn't hit a target. I, you know, just never played sports. Didn't have somebody there to show me. Uh, none of us did. Um, but, um, but I loved hockey, you know? From the minute I could put a set of skates on, I freaking loved to skate. So I could not wait for winter to come. And I mean, it was like the daily, you know, I'd be waiting there at the end of the driveway to see, you know, Skip, Boner, the Gooch, Peepus, you know, the crew come walking down Newton Hill. Uh, with their skates and sticks, hodgepodge looking, you know, maybe a Whalers jersey or a Bruins jersey and

• 8:53Speaker 01

  pair of gloves or something and sticks. And we'd go down and the whole town would play hockey, you know? If you were from 12 to 90, if you could skate and hold a stick, you were playing hockey. Our goalies would wear, you know, softball equipment, you know, catcher's mitts and, you know, shin guards and everybody else was just, you know, broken teeth and, you know, busted eyes. But, uh, you know, Billy Gill would come down and make our one by one and chicken wire goals. We were all volunteer firemen. We'd get the truck to come over and, you know, put a new coat, new top coat on the ice, you know, once in a while and and everybody'd be down there playing, playing hockey and I loved it, man. That was like, I actually thought, I, I saw that movie called Young Blood.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Do you guys ever see Young Blood? It was a hockey, look it up. It's a good movie. So Young Blood, you know, these guys, you know, he's hoping to get picked up by some, you know, whatever Canadian, um, you know, team. And, uh, I, I just imagined somehow somebody's going to notice some kid out in Northfield and I'm going to go play pro hockey somewhere. Um, never happened, but, but we, we used to play hockey right at the end of the Austin family, uh, boat, uh, boat launch. And so we'd drag down this giant log and, you know, build a bonfire, you know? Sometimes the moms would come down, make hot dogs and, you know, marshmallows and shit. And dude, the whole town would be down there. There'd be 30 guys on the ice rotating out. One day I'm with the crew with Skip and

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Boner and Peepus and the Gooch and, uh, we show up to play hockey and there's a pro team, or what it looks like, a pro team warming up in our, on our ice, in our goals. And we're like standing around like. What are we gonna do? Like, we wanna play, like, who are these guys? You know, what's up? Finally, one of them comes skating over and he's like, hey, come on out. Hey, we heard about you guys. We're the Hartford Stingers and we're here to play you.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Dude, best day of my life. We got our asses kicked. I even, I took a puck in the mouth, dude. I had a, I had a piece of something stuffed through my lip to try to keep the bleeding down, but we, we must have played for 10 hours, got our asses kicked. It was probably 30 to nothing by the time we were done, but I swear, we, we, we played the Stanley Cup that day.

• 11:02Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  It was awesome. But that was Northfield.

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was North. So then when, like, you know, that all sounds good. That all sounds like maybe you could scrap together, you know, finishing up school and everything like that, but it didn't really go like that, right?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Nah, it didn't. Um, like I said, I, you know, I spiraled downhill pretty quick. School, just, it didn't, it didn't work out for me. Uh, I would say eighth grade is probably the late, last grade I would show up for, but I didn't really show up. You know, I kinda did what I wanted there. I was more of a menace. Um, they were pushing me off into the Sweeney class or into this or that, just anything to get me out of the classroom and, you know, away from society. Um, and that was pretty much it. Uh, I think I, I started ninth grade at Oliver Wilk at Tech. Um, but mostly in the front door, out the back, I'd jump in a car with a buddy or walk the train tracks home and just, you know, do my own thing.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, troop officers would call and I'd just be like, come get me. By the way, there's two pit bulls, so be careful, you know? Nobody ever came. So that was it. And that was pretty much it, you know?

• 12:07Jocko Willink?

  So then what's, what's the path to get in the Marine Corps? What'd you do? I mean, how'd you make money? What were you doing?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Uh, I went to work. Um, my first job, Heidi, shows up in her little Chevette. By the way, she got taken out of the house, um, when I was like, maybe 13, I think. Um, our dad came and got her and, and she went to live with him, but, uh, they were still about a half hour, 40 minutes away and, uh, she shows up one day, I think I was about 13, and, uh, she's like, hey, um, get in the car. Uh, our dishwasher just quit. You're the new dishwasher. And I was like,

• 12:39Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Alright, well, I didn't have anything else going on, jump in the car and now I'm the Beanie's Restaurant dishwasher there in, in Torrington. Um, so, you know, that was my first job. And I hated being poor, like, you know, being poor sucked, like, I mean, when I say poor dude, like, we had that house, like, you didn't want to go to, mom, forgive me, but we didn't even have a door on the bathroom, like, there was a curtain hanging and you could see your feet when you were sitting on the shitter, like, and it was only like three feet from the kitchen. Nobody wanted to come to our house, you know what I mean? Pretty fucking poor. So, um, so yeah, so I, you know, once I started making some money, I'm like, oh, fuck, this is for me, you know, like, I gotta get to work. So that turned into construction jobs.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  I did roofing, I hauled shingles up ladders. I was like fifteen years old, you know, skinny little fucker, trying to get up a ladder to the fourth story in, you know, Waterbury or Torrington, hauling shingles and pulling concrete, you know, just all sorts of odd jobs.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, just trying to, trying to get by.

• 13:39Jocko Willink?

  And, and what about your, uh, you know, mischievous activity? Did you get more and more, you know, tempted by crime as you, as you get older?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Not, you know, I was never tempted by crime. Like, I, I didn't like it. Like, I had this conscience, you know, but you, you start hanging out with the wrong people and you sort of get sucked in, right?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  You know, let's back up a little bit. By the time I was, I want to say fourteen, I'd been in and out of two institutions and, um, in a, in a, uh, youth detention camp in the middle of nowhere. In fact, I hadn't seen my dad in a few years. He came to pick me up one day and I thought, oh, I'm gonna go live with dad. You know, like my sister, you know, he's gonna come save me. And he drove me straight to this fucking prison in the middle of nowhere, you know, I get stripped, deloused, hosed.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Throwing in an orange jumpsuit and, you know, in my four man tent with the, with the other four dudes there. You know, so. Was that like a state run thing or was it a private? I don't even know. Like, I didn't even know this one was coming, you know? And, and, I mean, yeah, this was kind of like the beginning of like me being completely autonomous. Because I'm in there and I'm like, three days in and I'm like, you know, you're in your orange jumpsuit. You got your little panties on and shit and I don't even really remember what the curriculum was in there. I don't even know what the hell we were doing. I couldn't tell you. I don't remember. But I remember meeting Dale Rinaldi. The guy like targeted me right away. I don't know if it was because of my size or what. He was a couple of years older. I was probably fourteen, thirteen, fourteen. He might've been fifteen, sixteen.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And he, he, he says, he's like, hey, look dude, we're gonna escape. And all I could think of is like, I gotta get out of here. He's like, we're gonna escape. Here's the plan. He's like, you gotta be good for a whole month. Like, if you can keep your shit together, they're gonna take us to the movies. And I got a plan. And it was simple. We were just gonna go into the head. We're gonna pretend to piss. Security guards were gonna go with us. The minute they pissed, because it's a long trip to Torrington from wherever the hell we were. We, we were gonna just bolt. And I mean, that was it. That was the plan. It was, it was simple, Jocko. It was a really simple plan. Beyond that, no clues. So sure enough, I mean, it worked like, it was like clockwork, dude. We go in, guard, one guard, he starts pissing. Dale like boom, and I'm right behind him out the door. He already knew where the side exit was. He'd scoped it the month before.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Out the side exit over a six foot concrete wall across the freeway, down into some backyards and under some tarps in a, in a, in a lawnmower shed in somebody's backyard for two hours where we can hear the cops and everybody looking for us. Hit out and, you know, that, that turned into a whole, you know, we can go down a rabbit hole. Wait, did you make it or not? Yeah, we made it. Yeah, yeah. So we, we, we, uh, we snuck out of there. Once it got dark. Uh, found some change. I called, I called the girl I knew to come pick us up. And, uh, she did. And, uh, that was an gnarly ride. Um, I'd already been into some shit, but. Yeah, I'll tell you this one. So, so I'm, I think I'm fourteen. And, uh, you know, we're, we're hiding in the back of this car and Dale, this guy is a junkie,

• 16:48Speaker 01

  like heroin addict junkie, like you could see his tracks on his arms. And I mean, I hadn't gone there yet. Like this was kind of new territory, couple of years older, so a little experienced in, in the dark shit. And so him and the girl that was driving, they were kind of connecting on this. And so first thing we do is he talks her into driving us. She's got money and we go right to Hartford and we're out in front of these projects and I'm sitting in the back of the car like, holy shit, he's gonna go in and buy some H like, wow, like what's this gonna be like? Like I'm like all this shit going through my head and we're sitting out there in the middle of the daylight. I'm like, you know, I'm running from the cops, like I'm about to get picked up. This guy's buying drugs like this is not gonna go well for me. And finally, after what seems like a year, it was probably just half an hour, but it felt like an eternity.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  He comes skipping across the grass, the brown dead yard in front of the projects. And he stops and he picks up a can off the ground and he starts working it in half as he's walking to the car. And I'm watching him. I'm like, what the fuck is he doing? He tears it in half. And just before he gets in the car, he scoops some sewer water out of the drain into the bottom of the can and hops in and slaps a bag of heroin over the driver's shoulder. And she grabs it and starts snorting it. And I'm just sitting there watching like, what the fuck? So he takes his heroin and he pours it in the can with the sewer water, pulls a lighter out of his pocket and starts cooking it. And I'm, I'm watching, I'm watching it, this brown sewer shit turn into

• 18:15Speaker 01

  little bubbles and straps off his arm with a rubber band, pulls a needle out of his pocket, plucks a piece of cotton out of the backseat, out of a hole from right in front of him, rolls it up, throws it into the bottom of that can, and then sticks that needle into that shit and pulls that sewer water into that needle. And I'm, I'm watching this whole thing like, what the fuck? Like this is how you fucking do heroin? Fuck. And he just sits back, shoves that into his arm, slowly pulls some blood into there first. And I could see the red sort of swirling like a candy cane with the brown, just all I could think of is shit water. And then boom, right into his veins.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  And he sunk back into the, into the freaking, pulls the needle out, drops it on the floor, pops his little rubber band and like slumps down into the, into the seat. By the way, he's dropped the bag of heroin next to me for me too. I never even fucking touched it. I'm like, that ain't for me. I mean, it was the grossest thing I'd ever seen. So where this ends up is, well, he's all fucked up, she's all fucked up. I don't know how we make it back to Torrington. We drop him off somewhere and I get dumped out on two oh two and I'm hitchhiking home. And so I don't know, I don't have a plan. I don't know where I'm going. I'm, I'm figuring the cops are probably going to pick me up. And so as I'm coming down two fifty four, you know, back towards home, Northfield. Um, I get picked up by Todd's mom.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  You know, and she, she screams at me. She opens up the door. She's like, everybody's fucking looking for you. The cops, get in the car, right? Commands me and I, I follow orders, right? It's a mom telling you to get in the car. I jump in the car and she takes me home. She's like, you can live in the back room. I'll tell your mom you're here, you're safe. And, and that was kind of it, you know, like, you know, now I'm, I'm out of the house. Like I've left home. My dad obviously doesn't want me. You know, the one time he comes to get me, he dumps me off in the woods. So I'm like, fuck it. I'm on my own, you know, and from there it's, you know, living in people's backyards, living in cars, under a bridge, making money however I can, selling whatever I can, you know, doing, doing whatever I can to survive.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  And, and that turns into even worse shit, you know, hanging out with even worse people, you know, when you're not in school at fifteen, sixteen years old, seventeen years old, like, you're hanging out with some pretty shady fucking people, you know?

• 20:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cause they're just looking to freaking take advantage of you and you're a little kid and they're not doing it. I mean, what, why is it, why are you hanging out with a sixteen year old if you're, if you're not in high school?

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:54Jocko Willink?

  You got issues.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, I had, I was doing this construction job. And these guys were complete assholes drinking on the job like talking shit all the time. I mean, these guys had like warehouses full of fireworks. They'd take me over to like all their illegal shit. You know, like they're doing construction work up front, but all this shady side stuff. And I had no idea. Just somebody said, Hey, I know this guy needs a handyman. You know, Ben, you need a job and I'm there. Next thing I know, they're trying to talk me into killing their wives. Right? Like, and at first I thought it was a joke, but then it felt like it was like serious talk. And then one day I'm I get invited by one of them or, or, you know, they pick me up, drop me off. So I'm sort of at their mercy. End up back at one of their houses and a guy strips naked, starts swimming the pool and he starts chasing

• 21:38Speaker 01

  me around his house, trying to rip my clothes off me. His wife comes home just in time to see us, see this dude fucking chasing me around his pool. And I'm just like, I'm not going to say their names, but I'm like, take fucking take me home. Get me the fuck out of here. Like done. Never went back to that job. But that's the kind of people you run into when you're 15 and out there in the world trying to, trying to survive. Just, you know, everybody's taking advantage, you know, just one, one, one after another.

• 22:05Jocko Willink?

  It's a freaking nightmare. Uh, weren't, wasn't there some kind of shooting that went down?

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. So ultimately, um, yeah. So we're, we're in Waterbury, me and a dude. I'm not going to say his name and we wouldn't be friends. We're not friends today and we'd, we'd never be friends then if I was the man I am then that I am today. Does that make sense? Like, okay. All right. So we're coming back from Waterbury, buying beer, you know, you can always get beer in Waterbury when you're underage and we're cruising down Torrington Road. It's called Torrington Waterbury Road, whatever. It's a back road between Torrington and, and, and, or I'm sorry, between Waterbury and Thomaston. And, you know, you take that road because you stay off the freeway, you know, stay out of, stay out of sight, whatever.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  And it's dark. There's no lights, nothing. It's, you know, it's an old, there's a bunch of old factories out there and shit. And we're just, we're just cruising, cruising back and we, um, you know, out of nowhere, set of headlights come and I mean, it's coming fast from behind and I feel like it's going to, this, this car's going to crash right into us. And as the headlights disappear behind the wing on the back of the Camaro. I brace against the, you know, the dash like this car's gonna freaking hit us. And it doesn't. Instead it yanks out alongside and does a pit maneuver on us like, you know, as if to drive us off the road or to drive us off the road. And we just happen to be right at

• 23:35Speaker 01

  an open parking lot with a giant entrance that the driver, um, we'll call him Rick. No, that's a make, make believe name. Um, dives into that driveway, you know, full speed. We're doing, we're doing like 50 mile an hour into the parking lot. And, uh, you know, the cars rate door to door with us and he slams on the brakes. They slam on their brakes and kinda pit maneuver 180 to where we're now almost nose to nose. I'm freaking the fuck out. Like what the fuck? I think I'm, I think I'm 18, probably just before my 19th birthday. I think I'm still 18. Um, and all I could think of is fucking car still running, throw it in reverse, throw it in reverse, throw it in reverse.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  And these two dudes get out and they're like 30 year old men, you know, like beards and fucking grown men. And now I'm shitting my pants and I'm just like, fucking go back up, back up. And Rick gets out, pulls a bat from behind the seat that he'd been carrying around. And just starts fucking swinging like a madman at the passenger. And screaming, come help me, help me Ben. And the driver is beelining for me in the car and I'm sitting there feeling like a fucking, I mean, I'm getting, I mean, this is a split second, but I'm vulnerable as hell. You know, there's nothing I can fucking do. So I reach in the glove box and I grabbed the Beretta that I know he keeps there. And by the way, Rick

• 25:06Speaker 01

  has two years in the army and he's, he's out. This is post army and I know he's got a Beretta in there. So I grabbed the Beretta. I jump out the passenger side. And as this dude's closing down on me, I start fucking screaming, get in your car, get in your car, fucking leave, you know? Backing up, I'm retreating and he's coming at me. Now he sees the gun. And he says, I'm gonna take your gun and kill you with it. And dude, like, I can still feel it, like, my heart fucking sank, and I'm just like, fuck. And by the way, I don't have any skills. Like, I've shot a couple of guns, but this is way beyond anything I've ever fucking, you know, been involved with. And I'm backing up now, and

• 25:48Speaker 01

  I raise the gun to his body, and he just keeps coming.

• 25:52Jocko Willink?

  What range is he at? He's like 10 feet away?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  He's like 10 feet away. And he gets to about five feet away, like, almost to where he can fucking grab me, but I can start smelling the liquor, like, these guys are drunk, they're fucked up, like, you know, so my part of me is thinking, okay, we're, we're straight, like, I might have an advantage here, but now I'm backing up fast, I'm on full retreat, and he's closing, and, you know, threatening me. And so I pop him a couple of times in the body. And he flinches, I can see him take the hits, I, I mean, I don't know, I didn't even fucking aim, I just boom, boom, boom, you know, or, you know, shot fired. And he kind of flinches, and then he's like, I'm Superman, I'm gonna fucking kill you with that gun. And so I bring it up to his head, and I squeeze.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Nothing happens. No click, fucking nothing. And so I fucking panic, and I'm like, I don't know how to clear it, like, I'm trying to clear it, now I'm trying to back up fast, and as this is happening, the other two, you know, Rick and the passenger have worked their way back to us, and while I'm trying to clear this thing, the dude that I'm fighting, or that I just shot,

• 27:02Speaker 01

  turns and jumps on Rick's back, folding his arms and, and containing the bat. And I'm worried now it's gonna be two on one, and they're gonna get this bat, so I shove the gun in my pocket, and I start fist fighting the passenger, and I'm trying to work him away from the bat and Rick, while they're, he's trying to hit this dude over his shoulders with the bat, I'm fist fighting, I take a couple of hits, I hit this guy three or four times, like, we're just going at it.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And I'm trying to keep track of where Rick is at. Next thing I notice is they're down on the ground and I'm just fucking paranoid. He's gonna get this fucking bat. And I can see Rick's head is turning purple, like he's got him in a choke. He's got one arm down, the bat's pinned, like it's not looking good. So I just start swinging like a madman at the passenger. I clock him a couple of times and he's backed up a bit from me. So I go running back to where Rick is on the ground and he rolls this bat to my feet. And I pick it up and I step back and I tell the dude on the ground, I'm like, fucking let him go. Get out of here before the cops show up. Like, let's fucking get out of here. And the guy's like, nope, give me the bat.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  And I didn't even hesitate, dude. I fucking backhanded him so hard across the forehead. The last thing I remember seeing is a big softball sized hole fucking open up. And honestly, I don't remember shit until driving away. I'm in the passenger seat, believe it or not, I'm looking back and I can see them scraping themselves up off the ground, trying to get, get back to their car. And then we drive off and where do I go? Heidi. And I get there and she's waiting for me at the door. She's like, nope, they want to see you down at the police station. Get the fuck down there. And so we went and turned ourselves in. And it looked like a bloodbath. The fucking police station was gnarly. They booked us,

• 28:55Speaker 01

  printed me, pictured me up, threw me in the cell. And I thought, fuck, this is it. Like, this is how it starts. This is my, I'm now an adult, I'm fucked.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  And yeah, so believe it or not, a couple hours later, they let us go and said, hey, you'll get your, you'll get a court date. We'll let you know. And so we, I don't know, it felt like a year. I mean, dude, I don't even know what I did. I think I just sat in a chair, waiting for a year, fucking year, but it was probably like three weeks. In that time, my mom got me a lawyer. She, you know, mom always comes through. She fucking got the family to come together, scrape up some money, got me a really good attorney. And then we got our court date. And we show up for court. And I'm like, I'm already thinking like, I guess I'm a criminal. Like this is, this is the beginning of,

• 29:49Speaker 01

  you know, life I don't want, but apparently this is, you know, this is what's meant.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever think of who, who are these guys? Just drunk idiots?

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Um, no, no. Yeah, we'll get to that too. So, so we're, we're, um, we're in court and it's the first time I've seen these dudes since this happened. So I'm, dude, I'm kind of freaking out. Like these guys are gonna see my face. They're gonna know my name. Like, like, I mean, I wasn't even really, I was more worried about them and, you know, who's friends or whatever, you know, like I, I didn't know what to expect, dude. I'm shitting my pants. And so we show up at court and, uh, you know, they, the first thing that happens is the judge, she, she reads the,

• 30:28Speaker 01

  she reads the charges against me. And no, I'm sorry. She reads the charges against the dude I'm with, Rick. And it was like two, it was like assault with a deadly weapon and assault and battery. And like, okay, that's not too bad. And then they read my charges. It's five. And I don't remember them all exactly, but it was assault, assault and battery, assault with a deadly weapon, assault with a firearm and attempted homicide. I mean, big and I like my fucking knees buckled and I'm just like, fuck me. Like I am going to jail. And then obviously our lawyers were countering with our, our, our own, you know, charges.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  And so they start reading the charges off for these two, uh, gentlemen that attacked us, by the way, you know, the aggressors, the fucking bad guys in this thing. Um, but all I could think of is I've shot somebody, right? Like I, I, you know, the whole rest of that story escaped me. All I'm having nightmares about is the part where I pointed gun at a human and fucking pulled the trigger, right? Like I'm going to jail. And so, um, they, they, uh, start, they read off the charges and they're minor, you know, um, compared to us and, and then the judge starts talking about the background.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  And she's like, all right, so, you know, Ben has no priors. He's never been arrested as, as an adult, you know, and a bunch of shit as this, as a kid, but she didn't bring it up. Um, and then, you know, Rick stuff, veteran army vet, blah, blah, blah, no priors. And then these guys.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Armed robbery, assault, assault with deadly weapons. I mean dude, I could go on. This, this speech went on forever. And I'm like, holy shit, like, what did we just narrowly escape? Right? In my head, I'm like, these are bad dudes. But then I'm thinking, all right, well, I guess I got the first five of their list coming to me, you know, like, this is how it starts. You know, am I going to be working with these guys later in life? I don't fucking know. Right? But um, after that, the judge says, hey, you know, she calls both the lawyers. Actually, I had two lawyers there, calls everybody up to the bench and they're up there for about two or three minutes. The lawyers come back, I'm standing there and he's shaking, trembling the whole time, you know, like, this is not good.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  And uh, the judge says, she says, Mr. Ingram, this was self-defense? Makes me want to cry, dude, just thinking about it. Cause when she said that word, I was like, what? Your case is dismissed? We're gonna null this? I haven't, I didn't even know what that word meant. I didn't care. All I heard was case dismissed. I, I didn't want to say a word. I didn't, I didn't say a word, you know, and she said to me, she said, you better go join the military or something. Cause if I see you, see you here again, it's gonna go a little different for you. I don't know what she said to anybody else. All I heard was what she said to me.

• 33:31Jocko Willink?

  And you were all ears.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  And I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Like, just where's the exit? Let me get out of here. I'm cleared. I'm fucking out of here. And so, so we got, we left, um, you know, again, a lot of stuff is kind of fuzzy, you know, with the excitement, I think. Um, but um, yeah, so we left, kind of celebrated outside a little bit. Never saw Rick again. That was the last day I ever saw him, you know, and I'm happy for that. Made some really bad decisions and that wasn't the only bad shit I got in with him. And I'm not going to blame him for the start, but we could have definitely avoided that. And you would think that I would have just got my shit together, but I actually kind of looked at that as I'm gonna get a jail free card and I kind of went back to doing some pretty, pretty horrible shit.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I was a limo driver at the time. I was, you know, working down in Manhattan. So I had, I was making money and still making bad decisions for about the next six months. And, and then Todd comes home from boot camp. His brother-in-law, his sister, Michelle, married Pete Bazarene Baz, who was the first Marine I ever saw in a set of dress blues. And when I saw him, dude, I was like, fuck, what is that? You know? I mean, he came home for their wedding, I think it was their wedding, and he put, dude, he was standing there in the kitchen with those dress blues and I, dude, it was, it just floored me. Sign me up. Yeah, well, I, I never thought that. I never, for me, it was like, I never thought about college and never thought about the Marines. I never even thought about military. I'm like, there's, that shit was not in the cards for me.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  I never even thought about it, dude. I was like, where am I just getting my next sandwich from, you know? But I saw him and I, I knew what it was. I mean, I, it, it just commanded respect, you know? But he was home on recruiting duty and he comes to me immediately. He's, I mean, he probably just saw an easy target. Hey, let me go get this shit and drag him over the Marine Corps, get my little, you know, my little recruiting duty award. But Todd and I were friends. We go way back. You know, we, we got really tight and, you know, tough times for both of us. And, you know, just, our relationship just grew tighter and tighter. You know, he took off to the Corps, which was just freaking badass. You know, he too, when he came home in his blues, I was just like, what the fuck? You know?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Totally put me in my place, like, you know, check. So, you know, he, Todd was, you know, he always looking out for me too. He, he called me when my dad died. It wasn't long after he joined the Corps that I lost my dad. And, you know, one of the few to reach out. And then when he came home on recruiting duty, you know, he provided that opportunity for me. You know, that man changed my life, changed my trajectory. So, you know, really a true brother, a true friend. And so he's like, yeah, I can, I can get you in. Come see Staff Sergeant Harris. So we go down to the recruiting office and in my head, I'm like, this is not going to go the way he thinks. And sure enough, Staff Sergeant Harris, she's like,

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Yep, the Marine Corps will take like a certain percentage of guys every year. This is your golden ticket. This is your lucky fucking day. We'll get you waivers. We'll get you waivers. I had a tattoo at the time. So she's like, we'll get you a waiver for your tattoo. We'll get you a waiver for, you know, your record, for all this shit. And we got to get you a GED. And we, we started straight off with the GED. Passed it. As soon as I passed it, like you needed a 50, I got like a 51. Passed the GED and so she sets me up for the ASFAB. I did great on the ASFAB, on the technical shit, like mechanical. I've always been really technical and mechanical. Excuse me. So would have been great to pick a cool technical job, but she's like, no.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Because you're the one percenter, you gotta go and open contract. You're gonna be a machine gunner. And I was like, well, fuck whatever. Like I, I, I thought that's what everybody was in the Marines anyways. I had no, I didn't know any different. It didn't matter to me. You know, the, the part where you passed was all I cared about. And so now it was off the maps and I got through the medical and then I entered the delayed entry program. I did pull-ups and push-ups for the first time in my life for like, I don't know, um, three weeks and maybe a little bit longer. And then, uh, before you know it, I'm, I'm on a 737 headed to Paris Island, leaving Bradley International Airport. Just going fucking holy shit. I escaped like, I, I, dude, I was beside myself.

• 37:51Jocko Willink?

  What year was it?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  1992. Yeah. I, I just turned 20. It was July. I checked in, I started July 15th. So it was probably like July 12th of 1992. I got on that airplane.

• 38:04Jocko Willink?

  And you get to boot camp. Did they prep you for boot camp? Did you feel like you were ready for it?

• 38:08Speaker 01

  I saw, um, Full Metal Jacket.

• 38:10Jocko Willink?

  Full Metal Jacket.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and dude, I'd already been through so much shit. Like for me, like when I got there, following orders, like doing, you know, I mean, dude, I was embarrassed. On that airplane, there were guys bawling, crying. I'm just looking at them like, dude, suck it up, you fucking pussy. We ain't even there yet. But looking back, like a lot of these guys just left home for the first time. You know, they never did anything. I, I'd been living on the street since I was, you know, 13, 14 years old. So, you know, just whatever. For me, it was.

• 38:39Jocko Willink?

  Three hots and a cot, dude. Let's go.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Right? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, and to be honest, I, I didn't know what to expect. I'd seen Full Metal Jacket, but I mean, that really, that's only like one little piece of it. I had no idea what 12 and a half weeks was gonna look like. And it was pretty fucking gnarly. It was, it was, uh, boot camp was, it was freaking awesome.

• 38:59Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you feel like that, uh, you know, you get broken down, you get rebuilt? How much did you love the Marine Corps when you were getting done with a boot camp?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  I fucking loved the Marine Corps. Like, the minute I got there. Um, just like, I never, I didn't, I didn't feel like I had a family as a kid. Like, I saw like the history and, and the, just the discipline. Like, it's what I needed. You know what I mean? Like, I bucked the system as a kid. Like, you know, I voided it all, but then all, all of a sudden, you know, here I am, I'm like, you know, you're kind of forced into it, and you're like, well, fuck, I'm, I'm, I'm making all these gains. Like, you realize, oh, this is how you do it. This is how you get ahead in life, you know? Um, but I had an awesome boot camp experience, dude. It was, I got there and, you know, the receiving part of it, you know, footprint, shave your head, get your uniforms, that kind of, whatever. Um, we got dropped to the receiving platoon,

• 39:57Speaker 01

  which is where, you know, there's like 15 of us there, and then they, you know, they start building you up to, you got about 70 guys, and then you get dropped to your platoon. And there's, there's, in boot camp, at least in Paris Island, you've got a company, we were a hotel company, and then there's, there's six platoons, um, the 20 series and the 30 series. We were the 20 series. I was platoon 2098, Marine number 25. Um, and we were on the third deck. But in the receiving platoon, because I was the tallest, they, they made me the guide. And the guide stands in front, carries the guide on, and you're the leader of the platoon. I didn't know, I didn't know what it meant. I just, at that point, I'm gonna walk the platoon that we have to chow and walk them back, and we're gonna all just sit here twiddling our thumbs on our foot lockers.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  But, um, when we got to, when we got dropped to our, our platoon, um, three or four days later, uh, as we're getting all of our trash dumped out on the ground in front of us, 50 DI's running around screaming, hollering at us, you know, creating all the chaos, uh, senior drill instructor, Staff Sergeant Wetzel, belts out, guide, where's my guide? And I, you know, for a minute, I'm like, is that me? I'm like, fuck, that's me. So I, dude, I jump out there, and I'm, you know, right up on the quarter deck. And then he calls for the squad leaders and then we all get pitted right there by ourselves. We're up there doing fucking PT, you know, um, just getting bent hard in front of the whole platoon. And I'm like, this kind of sucks, you know, like this is the part where they said, don't volunteer for anything.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Right? So, uh, but he made me guide immediately. So I'm guide day one receiving. I'm guide day one. Um, I'm getting punished day and night. Like everybody's fucking up. I had to stand fire guard, fire watch for 24, like, well, 12 hours all from taps to revelry. And, and, uh, I'm like, this sucks. So I left my boots untied thinking I'm going to get fired. I got fired and it sucked worse not being the guide. I was like, ooh, like this really sucks. So that night I grew, well, I'd already developed a relationship with my squad leaders. Two of them were on the airplane with me, um, down to, uh, Paris Island.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  So I saw Full Metal Jacket. I'm like, all right, we're going to go meet the guide tonight. And we tied him down under his sheets and I whispered in his ear in the morning, don't touch the fucking guide on. And so when we formed up, I just ran up there and grabbed the guide on. And senior drill instructor looked at me like, what the fuck? But he didn't say anything. And dude, I was the guide again, just like that. And I was the guide all the way through boot camp until two weeks before graduation, when I got fucking medical dropped.

• 42:41Jocko Willink?

  You got medical dropped two weeks before graduation. For what?

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Dude, so I didn't know how to run. There's a lot of things I didn't know how to do. My body fucking ached, right? And I'm, we're out in the field and

• 43:00Speaker 01

  we're doing the combat. It's our combat training, right? You're crawling underneath barbed wire. You got 50 cows going off overhead, like dummy rounds blowing up and shit. Fucking fun. Like dude, I'm having a good time. Like you're stabbing dumb dummies with your bayonets and shit. Like fucking fun. I dive over this barrier and I crush my left knee into this fucking barrier so hard, dude. I'm like, there's no way my kneecap is left. It's, it's fucking left my body. It's there, but dude, I can't hardly fucking walk, but I'm like, I'm sucking it up like, I gotta get through this. I got two weeks to go, but come that following Sunday, when we normally go to church, I asked to go to medical. I'm like, I'll just tell them I got shin splints like everybody fucking says and get me some Advil, right?

• 43:46Speaker 01

  A little something. So I go to medical shin splints. I need some Advil. And as I'm sitting there, fucking doc's like, oh no, let's x-ray this thing. And I'm like, well, no, no, let me go back to my platoon. I'm good to go. I don't need shit. No, dude, there was no going back. So there they are dragging me into x-ray and they tell me I have a stress fracture in my shin. And I'm like, I'm, I'm good. I can walk on it. Like, I'm good. No. You're dropped. You're going to the medical platoon.

• 44:14Jocko Willink?

  And wait, dropped is a rollback or dropped is like you're out of the Marine Corps?

• 44:18Speaker 01

  No, rollback. I'm getting rolled back. I'm getting dropped out of my platoon. I'm gonna go to MRP, Medical Recovery Platoon. And when I'm good to go, I'll come back with another platoon. And I just remember standing up there in my, I've got my fucking crutches and this leg brace and I'm up there on the third deck, watching my platoon with Matt Goddard, my number one squad leader now as guide, march off and they do a, what do they call it? Fade to the wind maneuver, which you're in perfect bitchin' Marine Corps formation. By the way, these guys are like 12 weeks in, so you can drill. They can march. They look fucking awesome. And I've never seen this, actually. I've always just been a part of it. I'm up there watching. And they do this fade to the wind where they poof, they go off into like

• 44:59Speaker 01

  a million different directions and then suck back together in a perfect formation, dude. I started bawling like a fucking baby. I was like, what? And my senior grabs me, throws me in the pickup and dumps me off at MRP, Medical Platoon. You know, I'm like so stupid, like you just, how, why couldn't you just suck this up for two weeks? And so, um, I'm sitting there, dude, like, like three days, maybe five. I couldn't tell you how many days went by, honestly. Maybe it was a day, but it felt more like three.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  You know, just, I wouldn't use the crutches. Like, I'm belligerent. Like, I don't need to be here. And let's say three days, I'm sitting on my, my footlocker, reading my knowledge, like, in my mind, I'm still competing for a company honor man, right? Like, that's what's coming. And so I'm studying my book of knowledge, you know, doing, I'm, I'm going forward. Like, I'm graduating in my mind. And I hear Senior Drill Instructor, Staff Sergeant Wetzel's high pitched Irish voice, "Guide? Where's my guide?" Dude, I couldn't get up quick enough. I fucking ran out of there, met him at the door, jumped in the pickup, and he drove me straight out into the field, and I rejoined the platoon.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Matt Goddard comes running up to me with my guide on, hands me my guide on, and I'm on, like, he's like, "You're on light duty." You know, I'm on light duty for the next week and a half now. And we're literally, like, they're done in the field. We're, we're marching back to the barracks to roll into photos, uniforms, you know, get your blues ready. Final drill is about all we had left, which I kind of dreaded, because you're really kind of drilling your heels and, and that was kind of painful. But,

• 46:41Speaker 01

  uh, we sucked at drill, so it's not like we were giving up a trophy or something by me limping around up front. You know what I mean? So, uh, we were good at everything else. Our platoon won all the fighting awards, everything. We kicked everybody's ass. We were a physical platoon, but looking good and marching. We're gonna get to the fight, but we're probably gonna look a little, you know, ragtag on our way there. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I end up, I ended up graduating on time. I, I, um, I competed for company honor man. Um, I took runner-up. I ended up graduating number two. Um, I did get to graduate with the 12 of us that got to stand 10 feet from my mom at graduation. You know, I could see her, she could see me.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  600 guys behind me, like, 300 yards away, and then we're right there getting our medals and looking at mom. It was a proud day, dude. It was, it was, it was pretty awesome. Freaking outstanding. Yeah. The Marine Corps does it right. You know, I was talking to Kerry the other day, and he was just talking about, he, he joined the Marine Corps. He was also like on a-

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  He was not on a great trajectory in life, you know, he had gotten bumped a couple of times. He got a DUI or two like he was, it was not going well. So he finally, the recruiter's like, no, you're signing up now. I'm getting you out of here now. And he said he got there and he was just like, this is what, this is what, the way things are supposed to be. Like, this is the way things are supposed to be. I'm supposed to be doing this right here. So.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  When you get there, dude, when you're in, you're all in. Like, when the Marine Corps gets its hooks in you, like, it's, it's just, it becomes a part of you, man. Like.

• 48:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the Marine Corps does it outstanding. I went to my buddy's son's graduation last year, man. It's just, you're like, yep, this is just outstanding. So what'd you, and, and what'd you end up with for an MOS?

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So out the door or on the way in the door, um, just, just before I got to boot camp, I, I can't, I don't, I don't remember. Anyway, anyway, at some point, um, Staff Sergeant Hare had reached out to tell me she had gotten me an MOS as an aviation ordinance man, right? I didn't know what that meant, but aviation. So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go into aviation, whatever. Like, again, it didn't matter to me. I, um, okay. In fact, that's what Todd did. He was, he was aviation ordinance, F-18s out of, um, out of, out of K Bay.

• 48:57Jocko Willink?

  Chuck.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  So, um, cool. I'll hang out with Todd, you know, I'll get to see him, you know, awesome, right? Um, it didn't really work out that way.

• 49:05Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, that's, chances are low of that happening.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  There's a lot of things I didn't know about the Marine Corps, bro. And they were like unfolding themselves, you know, the, the book was opening up. I was literally, I had no read ahead.

• 49:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so, so you get done with boot camp, did you go to, did you go to the, that infantry thing, that like a four week thing?

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So.

• 49:23Jocko Willink?

  I forget what they call it now.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  And, um, I don't know what it's called now.

• 49:27Jocko Willink?

  But it's like four weeks of infantry.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  Every Marine's a rifleman. Get some.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Awesome. Too fucking awesome, dude. So.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went, um, went straight to MCT in North Carolina. You're, you're at, uh, Camp Geiger, which, um, it's still there. It still exists. I'll, I, I actually got to visit it just a few years back when I was working for the Navy, but we'll talk about that later. Uh, go to Camp Geiger. And again, I'm picked for freaking platoon guide. So I'm a guide again down there in Camp Geiger, but it's, it's a little different now. You're like a platoon lead. Um, but nonetheless, we're, we're down there. Um, Camp Geiger was awesome. Um, you know, first time I ever fired a, a mod deuce 50 cal machine gun, fucking nothing like it, dude. I mean, I fell in love with that thing. I'm like, how do I get on this? I want to be part of this. Uh, what do they call it? A crew, this crew served weapon, you know? And then I had to carry the receiver and I was like,

• 50:17Speaker 01

  oh, man, maybe, maybe an M16 would have been better. I'm humping around this freaking, it's like a 55 pound square block of steel, you know, on your shoulder, you know? And I was a skinny fucker, dude. Like, I didn't work out. I didn't, like, I was, I should have been in, in the air wing. Like, I didn't look like, actually, it's funny, a lot of grunts, you look at them and they are skinny twigs when they get there, but they get developed. Um, so yeah, we got to fire that 50 and then the Mark 19 grenade launcher, awesome. Throw some grenades around, you know, learn how to do your combat. Um, I remember, you know, you finish up with like a, a full-blown, like mock-up combat scenario and, you know, we're out there in the woods, it's raining, it's like

• 50:58Speaker 01

  November, freezing ass cold. And, uh, you know, there's some trenches and foxholes that are already dug, you know, but you gotta dig in a little more. I just remember standing there, like, the flares are going off, the guns are going, like, this is the last night, you know, we've, we've won everything up to this point and I'm just standing there, like, I graduate tomorrow, like, I literally pull out a cigarette and I'm standing there smoking, it's pouring rain, I'm up to my knees in my, in my freaking foxhole in water, you know, flares, everything, and I'm, I'm, I'm like, man, battle's kinda glorious. And all of a sudden I can hear this freaking gunny behind me.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  The smoking lamp ain't lit and I'm like I'm slowly putting my cigarette down you better drop that thing and I drop my cigarette get down in that hole and just as I go to get down in my foxhole I look and the gunny's actually behind the dude next to me and chewing him out and so there he is down doing pushups in his fucking hole and I'm kinda like man I got off the hook but anyway MCT is over we graduate we're done a lot of fun got to shoot some cool weapons you know got to got an introduction to what um you know being a grunt would be like and I actually liked it you know I loved to camp as a kid I like I like being outside um I I was part of me was disappointed that that wasn't the path I was going and so from there I went on to uh Memphis Millington to um aviation ordinance ordinance school and and that's where most of the aviation schools are.

• 52:18Jocko Willink?

  And then how's that you down there you it's basically like learning a trade?

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah he basically yeah you learn your trade and uh I I had um I'd gone home in between you know for some Thanksgiving Christmas whatever but you know home life wasn't great so I went back I went down to to um Memphis Millington a little early so I'm I'm I'm in there you know running the floor machine the polishers with the rest of the guys that showed up a little early for school and uh you know getting ready for aviation ordinance and one day um this gunny comes in he's like hey everybody fall in you know it's like maybe ten of us we're short on aircraft mechanics you're all aircraft mechanics now you start tomorrow and I was like fuck alright that sounds way cooler than aviation ordinance

• 53:03Speaker 01

  and so the next day bro I fall into you know my little platoon and we show up at um basic helicopter and I'm gonna be a helicopter mechanic and you know you're just you know I actually learned that we have something other than Hueys and Cobras cuz at MCT that's all you see is the Cobras up there doing your close air support Huey's doing their thing but I realized oh we have um a CH53 which is a monster of a helicopter I'm like oh I wouldn't mind being on that and then this um flying banana looking thing called the CH46 affectionately called the Frog I learned that later and then um Harrier jump jets I'm like holy crap I want I want to be on Harriers like those are fucking cool but honestly I just I want to be on the Cobra right you got Sidewinder missiles big old

• 53:47Speaker 01

  thirty millimeter gun off the nose like put me on the Cobras and it had two seats so like there's a possibility of flying in the thing I don't know right so um now I get picked for the H46 I'm gonna fly I'm gonna be on the flying banana. So I don't know this at the time. And, and I learned quickly because the same gunny while I'm in CH 46 class, he shows up and he's like, where's all my swimmers? And I kind of thought we were going to play water polo. I don't know why I thought that, but I thought, okay, well, if we get to play against these Cobra guys, we're going to fuck them up. They got the cool helicopter, but we're going to whoop their asses. But it turned out to be a swim qual. And I had to do this treading water with a little brick over my head and swim a bunch of laps. Well, I grew up with a pond on my little farm, so I could swim like a fish. Good luck trying to drown me.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  And I passed. And so, next thing I know, I'm on my way to Florida, Pensacola for air crew school. Got to be a crew chief. Now I'm going to, and had I got Cobras, this never would have been an option. But now I'm going to fly in the back of the helicopter. And so I did another, I don't know, six, eight weeks down in Pensacola. It was like, I don't know, 30 Navy guys and four Marines totally outnumbered down there. Blue versus red. Every day was a competition.

• 55:01Jocko Willink?

  Does an air crew, does that like trump your aircraft mechanic or do you do both jobs?

• 55:07Speaker 01

  You do both. You know, you go through all the basic maintenance. You're, you're a line mechanic first. Actually, I take that back. You're a crew chief now first. Your MOS actually changes from 6112 to 6172. So you're a crew chief. But you, you, you do, you actually do more work, right? I mean, mechanics will say now we're a bunch of, you know, fucking glorified pilots, but you do line work, you do maintenance, you know, later on, you'll actually test the aircraft, you'll learn, use specialized equipment to do post inspection, engine and, and flight setup to get the aircraft to fly smooth and, and put them back into, into the, into operation. So

• 55:51Speaker 01

  it's pretty awesome. It's actually, I gotta tell you, dude, if you can't be a, if you can't be a grunt, you know, a boot slogger, then you want to be a pilot. And if you can't be a pilot, you want to be a crew chief. Like it's a great job.

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  And so then where, where'd you end up getting stationed when you get done?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  So I put in for California, Hawaii, and Japan, I think. I was, you know, I tried to hitchhike here. I've always wanted to go to California. I think it was probably from the old Led Zeppelin, "Going to California" song. I loved Zeppelin back in the day. Yeah, so I was destined to get here and I had a roommate and later, good, good friend Frank Stolfi, who introduced me to my future wife, Michelle. And so she was here. I knew she was here in California. And it turns out I ended up staying with Frank when I got here to California. And he did, in fact, introduce me to my future wife, Michelle, and we're still married today, thirty some odd years later. Let's go Frank. Yeah, thank you Frank. So where'd you get stationed?

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Ended up stationed at, it was MCA S Tustin. The large blimp hangars right there in Santa Ana, about three or four miles from Newport Beach. So really freaking awesome location. That's pretty cool. And what year is it? 1993. I got there in, I think, February of 93. To NAMT Trodes, HMT 301. It was the last crew chief school, the last class behind us. They shut it down. 301 went away. The Osprey was coming, so the Marine Corps was making the transition. We are, I am in the photo of the last of the Windwalkers. That's what we were called.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Windwalkers out of Tustin, California. And when we finished and graduated and got our wings pinned on. They shut it down. They shut it all down. That was it. Damn, that was in 94? 1993. But there were still 46s flying. There's more ever, man. There is, because there was and they still are flying, even for the State Department today, because while the Osprey had big problems and it actually didn't deliver for another 10 years. So they had to turn things around. They started building crew chiefs out of North Carolina, off of Cherry, out of Cherry Point. Yeah, because the 46 is like the workhorse. They actually, it is. Of the Navy, for sure. Oh, yeah. Dude, that thing, that helicopter is so awesome.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  I have no regrets. I would not go back unless I could be a pilot and fly a Cobra. I'll be a forty six crew chief all day long. It was rat. You know, you could go places a fifty three camp because of size. Um, all the vert rep hauling all the ass and trash. Like if there was work, if there was, if you were going to have a mission, the forty sixes were going.

• 58:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  You know, they were going.

• 58:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the forty six is no joke.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:44Jocko Willink?

  Watching, I remember watching my first vert rep at, at, at sea on a ship and I was like, God dang dude, like this is insane. It's crazy. Just watching those, he loves jumping back and forth. There's freaking pipes going between the two ships. It's, it's a crazy evolution.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Most of that craziness, that was the Navy, right? And their, and their D models, right? And they, those guys, they just lived on the ship. So they whipped those things around like nothing. You know, we, we did a lot of vert rep, but it didn't look as cool as a Navy on the vert rep, but, but they didn't, they didn't haul, haul the, the grunts around like we did.

• 59:18Jocko Willink?

  Roger.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  They didn't do some of the missions that we had. So, um, yeah.

• 59:22Jocko Willink?

  And so then how'd you like being, uh, when, when do you go on your first deployment?

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Oh, that's funny, dude. I didn't know we went on ships. I had no idea that was coming until I got to my squadron. And somebody was like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna deploy in like nine months. And I'm like, okay, where are we going? Like the USS Essex. I'm like, a fucking boat? Like what? We have airplanes, we have helicopters and we have boats? Yeah, I had no clue. So it was, it was ninety four, October of ninety four, when we were going to deploy. So, um, I want to say I got to my squadron around, um, I don't know, it must've been June, July. So we had, we had about a year of workups and whatnot, you know, I had to go through the squadron syllabus to get my, you know, to get my wings.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Actually, I already got my wings. They pinned those on it at, um, after Nam Trodes. Once you go through the crew chief.

• 1:00:13Jocko Willink?

  How was that pending ceremony? All good to go?

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Dude, guys were fucking passing out. Like it would, I, I thought they were going to do it bare chest, but I realized they had us put our white Skivvy t-shirts on because you can see the blood better. But dude, anybody that had a set of wings showed up that day. I didn't know there were so many crew chiefs in the Marine Corps. I got like. Forty freaking sets of pinholes in my chest. Pluck them out, find a new spot, pound them in. Frank, I love Frank to death, but Frank did not like blood. And I just remember like after the second stomp, he was, he was on his like leaned over, hands on his knees. I was holding his neck and you know, a couple of, a couple of guys came and got him and brought him outside. You know, he just didn't like the sight of blood.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  And so, um, I just imagine he's outside like escaping this and I kind of felt bad like, ah dude, like this is a rite of passage. You got, you know, Frank's missing out. I was fucking bummed. Dude, I go outside because I was on the, at the front of the line. So I'm done. Pluck, you know, I got my, my wings hanging in my chest and I, I go outside to show Frank and high five, whatever. There's Frank laying on the fucking picnic table. They pinned him. Everybody came out there and pounded those fucking things in his chest, laying on his back, dude. It was awesome. It was fucking awesome.

• 1:01:29Jocko Willink?

  Legit. Now, um, Pete Baz.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, dude.

• 1:01:37Jocko Willink?

  So how did that strike you? So he, he gets killed in the, in a helo crash.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:42Jocko Willink?

  He's, I'm literally. A guy, you know, just, uh, refresh us on your relationship with him.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:49Jocko Willink?

  He's the guy, when you talked earlier, he's like the first guy you ever saw in Marine Corps dress blues.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:54Jocko Willink?

  And coincidentally, he gets killed.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Yes. And, and I knew like the family loved him, like Pete was, like he was untouchable in the family.

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  So he was Todd's sister's?

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Husband.

• 1:02:09Jocko Willink?

  Husband?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they were tight. Like everybody was tight. I was like the adopted kid, you know, like I'm in the, I live in the back room, like, you know, but we were tight. They, they were tight. They were, they were super tight. Everybody loved Pete. Pete was, you know, Pete was one of Todd's heroes, you know, everybody talked about Pete, you know, just, he was untouchable and he's in the Marine Corps and he's doing great. He's a crew chief. He's got the same job that I ended up with, except he's on the Huey. And so probably maybe two months after training in, at, at Tustin, um, I get a call from Todd.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  That Pete got killed. And, uh, you know, I was just like, fuck, what? Like, you know, training accident out at 29 Palms. And, uh, I was just like, you know, fuck, you know, and then the calls start coming in and all the questions like, you know, could it be mechanical? Could it be? And I didn't know, like, I didn't know shit about helicopters, dude, like, you know, I'm just moving from one station to a next at that point, you know, in fact, I just, I started getting excited about my job, like, holy shit, like, and then I'm like, whoa, wait a minute, we could die, you know, just to training, like, not even on a deployment, you know, like, fuck. So, yeah, so we buried Pete, um, went down for the ceremony, um, you know, part of the, you know, we're there,

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  everybody's there graveside, you know, and, and it was just, yeah, it was pretty surreal, you know, he had a young son, um, I think Christopher was not even a year, I don't even think it was a year, you know, and Michelle, I just, you know, I was so heartbroken for her, you know, and then, you know, all the questions, so, yeah, it, it, um, it, it hit hard, and I don't know how this happened, but I ended up with his gunner's belt, like, later on, Baz, you know, written inside of it, and, yeah, I don't remember who gave it to me or how I ended up with it, but I still have it to this day, but, um, yeah, dude, that was, that was a kind of eye opening, you know, like, what, you know, holy shit, we can die doing this. I mean, you know, you know, but you expect,

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  you don't expect it to happen in training, you know, and, and again, I didn't have a lot of experience or knowledge of what it is that I had gotten into or signed up for, so it was just kind of unfolding itself in front of us.

• 1:04:21Jocko Willink?

  And then with that, you're going on deployment, it's, uh, October 1994. You know who you relieved on that deployment?

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:04:31Jocko Willink?

  Me.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:04:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  No shit?

• 1:04:33Jocko Willink?

  I was on the ARG prior, so, so we were, we were over there. Actually, I'm trying to think if we were on the same deployment or not, we might.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  I was on the USS Essex, we had the Garibaldi with us from Italy, we had the, the Bella Wood showed up later for support with USS Ogden, and we were, the constellation was, was, uh, our battle, our, our, um, carrier in our, in our battle group.

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so I deployed.

• 1:05:01Jocko Willink?

  How long did you stay on deployment for?

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  We were out for six months. We, yeah, we left October. Um, I got married two weeks before we left, so Michelle was broke in proper. Um, we stayed, we were out for six months. We went straight to, well, um, we went straight to Hong Kong, partied the shit out of Hong Kong, Singapore, hit Singapore for a week and then dropped into the, um, dropped into Kuwait and we were up out of Ali As Salim and then there was a, there was a small outpost like with the airfield north of there. I don't remember the name of it, but we lived out of containers for like, I don't know, a month.

• 1:05:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I'm trying to remember if I, if I was coming home at that time. Because I met my wife at that time, eh, but we were on deployment. Um, yeah, I think you either relieved me or we're on the same deployment.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Well, did you guys, did you steal a bus in Singapore? Cause we had Navy SEALs steal a bus in Singapore.

• 1:05:56Jocko Willink?

  That was not me. So, yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Do you know about that?

• 1:05:58Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That was my deployment.

• 1:06:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Okay. So that, so we weren't on the same deployment.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  By the way, that was, that was all we needed to hear. And then it was on dude. We tore up every town we went to. We're like stealing buses is cool.

• 1:06:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  On the agenda.

• 1:06:10Jocko Willink?

  That was like such a disaster, you know? This is why alcohol, uh, you know, I don't know if it's a hundred percent or 99.9% of the bad decisions that SEALs make.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Jocko Willink?

  Involve alcohol, but that one's a classic. Like,

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:26Jocko Willink?

  He did, yeah, I forget the whole story, but it was like a moped chase and then finally end up on a bus and decided he's going to steal the bus to get away. Type scenario. Not good. Didn't work out good.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Dude, we decided that since the Navy was doing it, we started stealing rickshaws. Ended up in a paddy wagon with, with, uh, my really good friend, Jason Robnett. We, we were going to get caned. They were going to send us to get caned, dude. We drove, they drove us around in this tiny little, I mean, it's like three foot, it's, it's smaller than the box at SEAL, at SEAL training and you're just shoved in the, in the, in the back of this thing for, I don't know, four hours. My legs were going numb. And then they dumped us off in the middle of the jungle and said, nope, you walk back to the ship. We thought tigers were going to eat us.

• 1:07:08Jocko Willink?

  Dang dude. That's not, that's not a good program.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Jocko Willink?

  Getting caned, by the way, there's a book I read about a guy that got caned. He was a, I think he was a British guy. But he, he ended up in the French Foreign Legion, maybe. Anyways, he was like, oh, you're gonna cane me? Cause he did some stupid thing on Liberty, right? And so they go, oh, you're gonna cane me? He goes, no big deal. Like, you know, what's some little Asian guy gonna, you know, try and hurt me? And he said he walks at like the, the place where they're gonna cane him and he sees the guy and it's like a giant, like the biggest, like Mongolian Samoan looking, just like 300 pound dude who's getting warmed up. Like he's getting warmed up.

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  And then they, do you know about this shit at Echo Charles? Then they take, they like strap you over like a, um, over like, almost like a, like a bench, but like a taller bench, like a gymnastics, you know, the gymnastics.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Horse.

• 1:08:02Jocko Willink?

  Horse. Yeah. Like strap him on that thing.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  You're not going anywhere.

• 1:08:06Jocko Willink?

  You're not going anywhere. And then it was something like seven lashings. Each one causes open lacerations on your ass. He had to fly home face down on a medical evacuation.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  It's no joke. So you're lucky you didn't get caned.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. We had, we had no, we had no idea how lucky. We, we did look into caning later on and realize how lucky we got, dude. Super belligerent, you know, we just, but thank those Navy SEALs because they started it, man. We, we, we had to outdo them.

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  Not good. Not good.

• 1:08:41Jocko Willink?

  And so what else, what else on that deployment?

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. So we, yeah, we did work, um, out of Kuwait, Ali As Salim. Uh, we were up there on the border. Iraqis were building up again. So we got to, you know, dump some troops out there, do a lot of, a lot of night ops, a lot of NVG stuff. Um, you know, really, I mean, I was in during the dry era, so not a lot going on. Um, so we, yeah, we left, uh, we left Kuwait, um, on our way. Let's see, I think it was, yeah, we were supposed to, it was Christmas. We were gonna go down to the UAE for Christmas day. And so Christmas Eve, I remember we get woke up like red alert, you know, 2am. Everybody down to the ready room and, you know, they're briefing us like it's on. We're gonna go take down a, a, um, you know, a ship breaking sanctions out of Iraq, whatever.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  And it's like, oh yeah, right on. This is, you know, this is the shit. This is what we're training for. And and honestly, we thought it was a drill. We're like, you know, most of us were pretty nonchalant. Like, this is kind of bullshit. Like, we're training on Christmas Eve. We're supposed to be in Kuwait or in UAE in the morning, you know? Um, so it became kind of surreal as I walk out onto the flight deck. I'm heading out to prep my heli- helicopter. And we had to check out our weapons, which we don't normally do. And then we bring, um, I meet, uh, Rocky Torres, our armor, like halfway to my helicopter. And I'm looking, you know, I'm looking at the Cobra

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  and they're cranking the rounds in the nose. You see all that thirty mic, mic going in. The sun, it's not up, but you can see that, like that silhouette, you know, of the Cobra with the warm, like, red glow in the background and just the nose of that thing and the gun and that you can hear the rounds going in. You're just, like, the hair starts standing up on your neck. And there's Rocky. He's got the receiver for the fifty and, you know, guys are hauling ammo and they're throwing shit up on the ramp. And I look at the ammo and I'm like, fuck, that's not nineteen fifty, whatever, Korean. That's API. Like, that's real bullets. And I look over at Rocky and he kind of looks at me and

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  I just kind of swallow, like, oh, shit, man. Like, it's on. Um, but it, it turned out to be sort of like Jake Gyllenhaal in, you know, Jarhead, you know, get all spooled up to go take a ship down. And I don't remember, we, we dumped like three SEAL teams, um, you know, on the boat. They take the boat over. Uh, I end up hanging out in Starboard D, watching the whole thing unfold. Don't even get to dump my guys on the deck. Um, I think, you know, dudes were like running around like ants and then disappeared. The SEALs had the boat wrapped up in about thirty seconds and they're steaming along behind us down to the UAE. And, you know, whatever, they hand it over. So that was it. But

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  walking up on that flight deck, I'll never forget those, you know, just those first, like, I don't know, twenty minutes, you know, just holy shit, like.

• 1:11:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when you, when you get to lock and load your weapon, it's, it's definitely, uh, it definitely, in the nineties, lock and load your weapon was like, oh, dude, like, it's on. And it was a, it was. So gratifying every time I got to lock and load my weapon in the nineties, you know? It's so crazy that, you know, by the time, you know, the war started, it was just like, that was just a, that's just how we, that's just the way, that's the way it was, you know? It was just a totally different story.

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  And then, didn't you guys lose a guy, a couple, a couple of guys in that deployment too, aviation wise?

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't, um, you know, it wasn't long after, I want to say it was, um, maybe, maybe January. Actually during, so we did eyes over Mogadishu, I think it was December, January. We didn't go in country there, we were offshore, but the Harriers and the Cobras gunships were doing escort and Overwatch or whatever. And so, we, uh, one, you know, moonless night, we lose, um, we lose a Harrier. We lose, uh, Captain McKay, um, off the bow of the ship, about a mile out. And, uh, we spent the next, I don't know, felt like a week, just combing the ocean, looking for traces. You know, no- nothing.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Not a sign, not an oil spill, not a flare, not a, not a sea dye marker. I mean, the only thing we can assume is he just, it just submarined in, um, you know, and never to be seen again.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Really, you know, hit home. I, you know, I didn't know Captain McKay personally, but, you know, you see him, they're pre-flight and we're, I was always hanging out with the Harrier guys. I fucking loved Harriers, they'd pull the wing off one and, you know, so you're just, you're all part of the community. It's tight, everybody's doing their briefs together and the ready rooms together, so you know all these guys and, uh, yeah, that, that sucked, you know, that just sucked, you know, thinking about the letter home, the, you know, somebody's not getting their dad back, you know, like, that really, really fucking sucked. And then not long after that, um, we, we lost another marine. We had, uh, we had a helicopter, um, crash and it was, um, right off the side of the ship.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  I was, uh, in the forward slash, um, maybe second helo in, uh, prepping my helicopter, doing my, up on the rotor head, uh, servicing, doing my checks and spot one, maybe spot two, had a Huey, um, going up and, uh,

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  There was a guy, you know, I knew all the crew. I mean, we were tight with the Huey guys. Uh, we're all in the line together, so we're all tight, but they were taking up a. I want to say this guy was a hydraulics man. Um, his name was, uh, Justin Harris. He's a good dude. Um, you know, a lot of guys knew him, liked him. He wasn't in my shop, so we weren't bros, but I knew Justin. I knew who he was. I knew. Uh, in that day, super excited to go fly because he hadn't been up. He had to go do some, some quals or something. We needed as many guys, um, you know, trained and ready, um, for, for us to go into Somalia later, uh, later that month. And, um, so they were, they were getting ready. Uh, we're off the coast. They were going to do a training op.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  And, um, I remember, you know, I'm, I'm looking at the guys, you know, there's, um, three in the back, two crew chiefs and, and Harris is in there. And, uh, they're, you know, they're looking out the right side, doors open, getting ready to come up into hover. I'm giving them the shock, uh, you know, fuck yeah, like get some and. And, uh, they slide left and they do this maneuver that looks like something out of Vietnam, you know? And I start laughing and I'm like, oh, fuck, they're giving Harris a ride for his life. And then I realized you can't do that off the side of the ship. Like they're fucking crashing. So I, I jump off my rotor head, straight down to the door, down to the ground and I run to the side of the ship.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Uh, just inside, just in time to see the helicopter roll on its side. It's in the, it's in the shadow of the boat. So I can see clearly, like straight down in the water and I can see a couple of helmets pop up. And I'm counting them, you know, and I, I see the rotor, tail rotor kind of disappear. And I can only see four guys. I mean, they're 77 feet down. They're right there and I'm kind of running along the side of the boat, looking at them. And I'm the only guy standing out there. Like there was a yellow shirt, flagging them off. Nobody's on the line yet. And I'm just like, fuck, like, I just remember thinking, where the fuck is everybody? Like there's a helicopter in the water.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  And so, um, I scooped back to my helicopter to grab my raft. Like, they need a raft. So I grabbed the raft and I come running back to the side of the fucking boat and by now they're at the fantail like, you know, what am I gonna do? So, so I dropped the raft and I'm like, fuck. So now, you know, there's a crowd forming. I can, you know, I see the, the SAR helicopters, you know, it was probably already airborne, but now they're over the scene. Um, I run back and I grab, I, I actually was one of the guys that didn't follow orders and I bought a nice Minolta with a 300 zoom and all that shit. So I go grab my camera and my zoom. So, cause I want to look and see what the fuck's going on. So I get the zoom and I'm sprinting to the back of the, the boat.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  And I see the rib boat, um, take off towards these guys. You can see the sea dye marker now, the smoke's going. And I, I get my zoom going and I can, I can see, you know, as clear as these cans on our, on our desk, I can count four helmets. And guys are over my shoulder like, hey, how many, you know, did, you know, can you see anything? And I already knew we lost somebody. And so I'm just like, nah, you know, I can't see anything and I, and I wasn't going to take any pictures. I didn't take any pictures of that shit. Um, you know, so I just, I just waited, you know, and, and I could see him getting the boat and I just watched the whole thing, monitored him come in and, and, uh, you know, I remember the guys standing in, in the, in the, they came back and, you know, they're up to the flight line and, and they're all sopping wet, taking their gear off and in the flight deck triage and, and, and Harris was gone.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  I don't know why they hit so hard, but it does.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  You know, I didn't know him that well.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  But all I could imagine.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  And I kept telling myself, I'm like, it's only 77 feet. Why, like, why didn't you jump in there now?

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Why isn't there a diver already in the water? Like, all this shit going through my head, like, you know, how can we have all this equipment? How can we do something so fucking dangerous and not have

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  anticipated and have safety measures in place? Like, that fucking boat should already been in the water. Like, why don't we, you know, I mean, obviously, that's ridiculous. We can't do that, right? But that's what went through my head. And, uh, years later, um, well, it always kind of haunted me watching that. Like, I, I felt, I, I carried so much guilt, dude, because I was fucking high-fiving these guys and, you know, and laughing as they were crashing. And I, and I think I was ashamed. Like, I, I just carried a lot of guilt because, you know, I, I, I think I was ashamed, like, how I reacted, um, that I couldn't do more.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think that's one of the toughest things I think guys deal with is, um, when they look back at situations that they were in and they feel like there's things that they should have done or shouldn't have done. And they didn't perform the way they wanted to.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:36Jocko Willink?

  And there, you know, people's expectations of themselves are so high, higher than can be expected, you know, like, what, you know, like, like, the expectation that you're having right now? As if there was anything in the world that, that would have benefited by you jumping in the water. Like, that is zero benefit. In fact, it would have made things worse. Now we're doing, man, like, but in your mind and in our minds, you know, we tell ourselves, well, I could have done better. I should have done better. And that's the kind of thing that, that haunts people because they feel like, oh, I, I should have been better in that moment than I was. And instead of recognizing Most of the time, most situations, guys are doing the best they could in that moment. And like they did what they were supposed to do, what they were trained to do.

• 1:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Like, I'll tell you why you didn't jump in the water. Cause you don't freaking jump in the water off of a Navy ship. You don't do that. It doesn't happen. And, and so you were doing exactly what you're trained to do, but there is something where we feel like we could have done more. We should have done more. We wanted to do more. And you know, I've had, I've told many guys over the years that the only acceptable result in our head is we don't come home alive. You know, like that's the only, you know, we, we in our own minds, we think, you know what? I, I should, I, I didn't do enough because I came home. And that's not the right attitude, you know, it's not, it's not the correct answer. I'm just telling you what we feel like. Oh, if I'm here and someone else isn't, that means I didn't do enough.

• 1:21:06Jocko Willink?

  And, and that eats people up, you know, because it's, it's a feeling that we have of, you know, we let down our brothers, we let down our friends, we let down ourselves in that moment. But you did exactly what you were trained to do, exactly what you're supposed to do. And, and that's the way it is. And it is, you know, that's why, that's why guys struggle so much because they look back and go, man, I, I think I should have behaved better. You did what you were supposed to do and most guys do. And hey, occasionally when you don't do what you, maybe you made a mistake. You know, you go, oh, well, with what I was dealing with at the time. Cool. I made a mistake. That's what, I'm a human being. I'm not a perfect person, you know, like, okay.

• 1:21:48Jocko Willink?

  That, that is like ownership of, hey, I didn't, I wasn't perfect. I didn't do everything perfect, then that's okay. You know, like that's, you were there, you know? And that's another thing I get with guys that.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  They feel guilty because they didn't go to combat. I'm like, man, you put your line, you put your, you signed your name on the dotted line like everybody else did. And that's a commitment. That's the biggest commitment that you can make. And by the way, you know, in the nineties, you know, I did three shipboard deployments in the nineties. People die on all those deployments, like, and people die in training. You know, like you've got examples, you've already talked three examples. Say one guy died in training, two guys died on deployment. There's no war going on. This is just what happens. This is a job. You sign that dotted line. And this is what, this is what you're gonna do. And you're gonna do it day in, day out, and you're not gonna ask any questions about, you know, is it the right day to do this? Could we die today? Yeah, you're damn right. You can die today. You can die tomorrow. We don't know. But you know, we do know, we're getting our gear on, we're going. So that's,

• 1:22:49Jocko Willink?

  that's, that's the, that's what I've found, uh, talking to a lot of guys over the years is that, that feeling of, I, I, I feel like I should have done more. And of course, we're all gonna feel that way. But the, the reality of, hey, you did what you were trained to do and/or you did the best you could do in that situation is all right, bro. It's hard. It's all right.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that turned into, you know, overtraining for the rest of my life. You know, just ask my kids. As the neighbors call over, go, hey, what's going on over there at 10 o'clock at night? I see flashlights and some sort of ladder hanging out of the front of your house, you know?

• 1:23:26Jocko Willink?

  Running some drills, running some drills, bro. You never know.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:32Jocko Willink?

  So you get back from that deployment, at what point do you decide you're gonna get out?

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we get back from that deployment and, uh, which by the way, we, we spent another, um, I think, uh, we spent another like two and a half months in, in Somalia. We did the United Shield while we're there. And I heard a podcast with Jason, um, Gar, uh, Gardner. And I wonder if we were on the same deployment because there was some, there was some combat there that, uh, sounds very similar to what we, you know, what we experienced. That I think Jason was a part of.

• 1:24:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, could, could well have been. He was, yeah, he, he was, uh, one of the. Seals that was a SEAL sniper in Somalia.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I listened to that story carefully because I'm like, man, that sounds like I think that's my battle group. I heard some things.

• 1:24:21Jocko Willink?

  What year that was though?

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  I think it was ninety four.

• 1:24:23Jocko Willink?

  It might have been.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Hit him.

• 1:24:24Jocko Willink?

  Might have been. I'll ask him.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Ask him, because I'd love to know. Cause I I heard that. I heard him on that and I'm like, fuck, I think he was on. I think they were the SEALs out there raising hell. We did a lot of SAR. We did, I did twenty missions into into Somalia from from like February through April.

• 1:24:39Jocko Willink?

  And what were you guys doing?

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Mostly ass and trash. No, you know, we were evacuating.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Uh, we did a few ops with, um, there were some Pakistani forces still in there. We had the Italians in there.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Our infantry were were holding security at the airport.

• 1:24:55Jocko Willink?

  You got to lock and load a bunch.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Oh, every day.

• 1:24:57Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  Fuck, yeah, dude, for three months, you know, but but it felt like, you know, yeah, I mean, I got to see tracers and multiple colors, you know, it was it was fucking, it was pretty cool at the time.

• 1:25:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you guys, so you guys relieved us because we were doing Gator squares off of Somalia for months.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:15Jocko Willink?

  And but they but we didn't do anything.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  We were the last op, so we relieved everybody. So when we left, there was nothing there. Like it was, that was United Shield. We pulled everybody out. Then we packed up our grunts. They left all those Conex boxes and that whole perimeter, you know, piled in. I was one of the last forty sixes to leave Somalia. And then it was done. We left there and headed straight for Australia.

• 1:25:39Jocko Willink?

  Damn, Australia must be chaos.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, three days, four days, maybe. Dude, we had, we got cut loose. We had to wear our Charlies. The first night, you know, your shiny little shoes, all your ribbons and shit, dude, we came back from the Fremantle prison. Fucking stage diving all night, dude, my shit was, I didn't have anything left.

• 1:25:59Jocko Willink?

  The Fremantle prison, what's that?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  I don't know, it was like a bar, you know, entertainment venue, dude, we were so drunk, I couldn't even tell you. But it was like, yeah, it was where the, everything was happening. Guys were stage diving and, you know, we're fighting and yeah, all your shit was getting tore off, like trying to get back on the boat. All tore up like that, you know, was, yeah, it was, it was a good time. We had a good time. Three days of drinking and partying and then back home, you know, back to Pearl and then um, back home and, uh, you know, when I got home.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  The, you know, the squadrons get sort of dismantled, right? You've done your, your, your deal. The other squadrons are building up. So everybody kind of scatters. And I was asked to go to, we call it shit canning, but you know, I was a test crew chief. I had some specialty skills and HMM 166, the sea elks were struggling to test aircraft up and they had one stuck down in Yuma, Arizona. So it might've been El Centro. I can't remember. It was a fucking hot hellhole or whatever. So I got asked to go to 166 when I got back.

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  And then that was your next duty station?

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Um, no.

• 1:27:06Jocko Willink?

  Or you just went down there to work on some birds?

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  I went down there to, to test the birds up, get them back home. That was a funny story. So we, so to test these aircraft, we have special accelerometers and test equipment we hook up, targets to the blades. You do what's called the track and balance. Each one of the targets has a reflective line on it that's at a different angle. And you know, typically you make a, with your strobe light, you can make an X out of it. Get them, get them to track flat. Put your vibe, you know, machine on there. Make sure the plane's not going to shake itself apart. Usually it takes about four or five runs to get, you know, get a helicopter tested up and flying smooth. So we can put it back into service. And this one was a mess. And I get down there and I just pick up where the last guy left off. And I'm sure somebody, well, maybe somebody will hear this that can laugh at it. So I,

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  I just, I'm going to be the hero. I'm good at what I do. I got a lot of confidence. I just come back off deployment like, dude, I'm a fucking badass and I'm going to have this up in three runs. We get there. And by the time we got to the third run, when we came up into a hover, I can't see straight. It's vibrating so bad. I don't even know how this thing didn't come apart. Right? So we come back down, we, we put it down and we taxi back and the pilots are like, they're shaking their heads. And I'm like, just give me a minute. And so I go up and I, I recheck all the test equipment. I'm like, I gotta start over. And so I go in and I check and they fucking, the guy ahead of me hooked the accelerometer for the front up to the back and the back one to the front. So everything you're supposed to do up front, I'm doing to the back. It's all ass backwards and just making the shit worse. So I get this thing up in like two more runs and we fly it home.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  And I'm the fucking hero, right? I didn't tell anybody this story. I'm just like, ah, five runs. Got it. You know, we're good. And so I spent the next, um, like three months with 166 and they asked me to go do mountain warfare training with them. And so I was like, all right, I'd never been up to Bridgeport. I heard there's good fishing and I, you know, sounds badass. Let's go. So we go to Bridgeport and Bridgeport was cool, but it's high altitude training and for a helicopter that can be a challenge. And we, you know, we had some fun, but it started heating up and you know how in California you can have, you know, in the middle of the winter, you can get these CNNs and this warm air come through and all of a sudden,

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  you know, it's January, it should be, you know, negative 20 up there at 12,000 feet, but it's, you know, 60 degrees, fucking warm day. No, snow is melting, grunts are in their t-shirts, you know, and we're coming in to pick up guys at like 12,000 feet. And I got a rookie crew that I don't know that well, to be honest, you know, and we're coming in hot and I'm calling for wave off and he's like, I can't like, we're coming in like we're landing. And dude, we slam into all this gear, you know, hit fucking hard. It's called a hard landing, but it felt like a crash to me and the crew chief is standing in the back and I get fucking thrown into my crew seat, you know, inverted

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  backwards so fucking hard I can't walk. And so I come out of that, you know, we, you know, aircraft's okay, you know, everybody's fine, just me, I'm fucking beat up. And so we come back from that mountain warfare training and I'm like, I'm fucking done like with 166, like I'm like limping around, I've been to medical twice, you know, I'm, you know, Advil, go back home, rest. I got put on light duty now. And so now I'm not flying, I'm on light duty, I'm limping around, going back to my squadron and, you know, I'm just not feeling good and, you know, the, it's time to talk to the career planner. They closed my MOS. I told you earlier that we were the last class for the 46s, we're going

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  to go to the Ospreys. So no re-enlistment for me as a 6172. The bonus went away. The guys like literally a month before me got a $20,000 bonus. There's no bonus for me. And You know, there's no job and I'm like, I got the best job in the Marine Corps. Like there's, there's no way I'm going to whatever avionics or whatever geek job they had for me. Like fuck that. And so I tell them, I'm like, send me, send me to the fucking grunts. Like send me to Pendleton, I'll go carry a fucking machine gun. And career planner's like, no, we got too much money invested in you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, fuck you then, I'm getting out. You know, and so, fine, get out. And there was nobody talking me out of it.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  There was nobody trying to keep me. All of a sudden, the Marine Corps that I loved, that, you know, I remember Major Murray back when I first got to my squadron. We thought we were going to turn in our wings after a close call in the middle of the night. Pilots almost flew us into the side of a fucking mountain and by the grace of God, I flipped down my MBGs in time to call for power and save my own ass. Um, we thought, I thought I was going to quit, like, you know, like Cougar slapped my wings down on the table. I'm out, like, you know, and turns, turns, turns the shit around on me like, hey, Marine Corps needs guys. Like, like, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're exactly what we need. And so you leave there all proud, like, you know, with a whole, you know, no outlook, new outlook. And, you know, here I am, you know, four years later and Corps didn't need me anymore.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  So I'm like, fuck it, I'm getting out, you know, and so I started looking for a way to get out.

• 1:32:14Jocko Willink?

  And then how long did it take you to get out?

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Um, it wasn't long. I mean, I was probably two months away from needing to reenlist. I thought I was going to reenlist, actually thought I was going to get extended to be a, um, uh, you know, to go do a second deployment could be because it's, it's kind of mandatory. You have to do two, two deployments. Everybody, everybody knows that, but I'm a, I'm a one pump chump dude. Like I got away with just doing one deployment. And so I thought for sure they would extend me with 161 and I'd do another, you know, I'd do another six months. Uh, deployment, but there was no, I'm like, man, I'll get out. And so I'd like two months to go. And I had a friend on the outside world that, um, owned a tractor trailer and he said he'd teach me how to drive. So thought it was going to be a truck driver.

• 1:32:56Jocko Willink?

  Now you were, is this when you became friends with Josh before, this is before you got out?

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  This is actually, yeah, right at the same time. So when I got back from 166, uh, I, I show up to 161, my parent squadron. And, uh, I'm, at this time, I'm driving the 68 Roadrunner that, um,

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was supposed to be a car I was supposed to drive to see my wife on the weekends because I was borrowing a motorcycle to go visit my, my girlfriend, later wife and bought this car and ended up yanking everything out, you know, big block. All of a sudden I'm a motorhead and I'm blub, blub, blub, blub, blub into the parking lot and I got the only Mopar.

• 1:33:36Jocko Willink?

  You wish you still had that thing.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  I wish dude, that's a whole, yeah, I wish. So I come rolling in my Roadrunner and, and in my parking spot is a 1971 Cuda, 340 Cuda.

• 1:33:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Mine's all primered, this thing's all painted nice, like, it was nice. And I'm like, who the fuck is this in my parking spot? So I blub, blub, blub, pull up next to it and I'm checking it out. I'm shoving my head inside the, you know, inside the driver's seat and all of a sudden this fucking like Honda Civic, wee, wee, wee alarm goes off, like on a, on a 71 Cuda. I'm like, what the fuck is this? You know, and I'm like laughing and the lights are flashing and I'm just thinking, what a geek. And this skinny little Mexican comes around the corner and he's like, hey dude, if you want to go for a ride, just ask. And that was Josh. And I'm like, alright dude, let's go, you know, and fuck, we jumped in that thing and it was on. Um, that was a, I think it was a 340 six pack

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  he had in that thing and we were just, you know, just hammering around and we just, you know, we hit it off, like, you know, two peas in a pod, man. Our Mopars, you know, he's a mechanic, he was a 6112, I'm a 6172. We're on the flat line together, but I only got two months left, but we're, you know, dude, we're, we hit it off good. That was, that was day one to a long friendship, right there.

• 1:34:54Jocko Willink?

  And now you get out this truck driver job, how's that work out?

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  That was fun. I was, uh, I would, dude, I would test aircraft all day, sunrise to sunset. And then at like nine o'clock at night, I'd jam up to Reed's house. We'd drive out to Ontario, pick up his truck, grab a Kmart trailer, drop it in Blythe, go north about a half hour, pick up a loaded dog food, drop it in San Diego, and then he'd drop me back off at the base for about half hour worth of sleep before I'd show up at the flat line again. But I was determined, like, I'm gonna drive a truck. And dude, drive on a tractor trailer? Fucking badass. It was one of the coolest things I ever learned how to do. Um, but Reed got sick when I had about two weeks to go before I, I, uh, before I got out.

• 1:35:39Speaker 01

  And I was still like two weeks away from getting a license. It was kind of timed up to getting my like my full blown license testing. I still needed a little bit of drive time and some practice before I tested, but he got sick. And so, you know, we delayed, we delayed and then all of a sudden I'm getting out and I don't have a job. So I'm at the in-laws house. My father-in-law worked for Arrowhead Water at the time and, you know, he's like, well, you're not, you're not sleeping on the couch, you know? Married my daughter. You gotta provide, you know? And I'm like, all right, well, you know, I'll figure it out.

• 1:36:09Jocko Willink?

  Those are facts. Yeah. Like, hey, that's the way it is.

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  We'll figure it out. And so he says, well, if you can't find something, call this guy. And he hands me a business card and it's a, a food brokerage called, um, Bromar, uh, Southern California. And they repped the Arrowhead products. Like I can't hire you. That's nepotism, but these guys will, they'll love to have you. And so I go down and I interview with Jack Tar and, uh, he, they hire me on the spot. And they have a, a United States Marine on their payroll now. So they, they're going to capitalize on that and they decide to start a new territory selling premium water in South Central, East LA and Compton.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  And so they send me to Lucky's and to Ralph's and a, a store that does not want, you know, premium two 50 a gallon water on the shelf. And when I show up, there is no Arrowhead. It's all in the back with like 20 years of dust on it. And my job is to now convince somebody that this is the water table and half of it belongs to me. And you gotta let me put your product on the shelf. So you know how that went. So I spent the next nine months, you know, battling that shit and going, you know, what, I gotta do something different. This sucks. I mean, I made it fun, dude. I, I mean, I sold like 2,000 freaking cases into a store and put a jet ski, you know, in the front of this grocery store. And like, I, I mean, I made it work. Um, you know, I.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna say on, you know, live, some of the tools I use to, to get that product in, but you know, we made it work. But it sucked, dude, it sucked. Um, so I'm driving home from work one day, just thinking, what was this A and P shit? That David Bill, one of my mentors in the Marine Corps had mentioned, you know, cause he said, you better get this, you know, to everybody. But I didn't know what the hell it was, you know, I, I mean, I knew it was a license, but I didn't know anything about it or how to get it. And so I just peel off into the Long Beach FISDO FAA office on my way home from LA one day. And I just, you know, asking the questions, hey, how do I get an AMP? I'm a, I'm a crew chief. I was in the Marine Corps mechanic and they're,

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  they lay it all out for me. They're like, well, you gotta go back to your command. You're gonna have to get this recommendation letter. You know, get your DD two fourteen, gather up all your training records, bring all this stuff in and let us have a look at it. So I went and over the next, you know, month, you know, I still was close with my command. I was still hanging out with all my bros. Like I'd still go to my squadron, dude. Like, I mean, there was a point when I thought I was gonna get back in. Like this sucks so bad out here. Like sign me back up. Um, so, uh, I gather up everything I need and I show up at the FAA and, you know, I walk them through it and they're like, okay, here's your eighty six ten dash two. Sign you off for airframe, sign you off for power plant. Here's a phone number for a, a school that can prep you for a couple of weeks.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Go do this prep class and take your, take your written exams. There's three of them, uh, general, a, um, airframe and a power plant. You have like twelve hundred questions to, to, to study for a hundred of them that are gonna be on your test for three tests, uh, passed. And then you move on to a oral and practical where you, you know, somebody that's already an expert in the industry and designated by the FAA. They, they interrogate you and make you physically do work on, you know, Magneto's engines, you know, whatever. And then they decide whether or not you can actually get a license and. And I passed and they signed me off and hand me my temporary certificate and now I'm an A and P aircraft mechanic.

• 1:39:43Jocko Willink?

  Now, what would a civilian path to to get to there have looked like? That just means somebody went to like a a school. What school do you go to? You go to like Embry-Riddle Aeronautical? Do they teach aircraft mechanics or no?

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, they do.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Embry-Riddle does. Uh, there's a lot of colleges that do. There's a lot of vocational schools, um, and even more so popping up now. At the time and and even now, there's two paths to getting an A and P license, an actual certification.

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  What does A and P stand for?

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  Airframe and power plant.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  There are two individual ratings. There's an airframe rating and then there's a power plant rating. They're individual. But really, I'm not going to say useless, but together, when you have both ratings, that's the golden ticket. That's what you want. The airframe is the easier one to get. Most, um, you know, most guys can get an airframe at least. Getting the power plant add-on is a little more difficult. Yeah, it's a specialty. So could be a little more challenging unless you went to school. Um, so there's two paths. The common path is to go to school to an Embry-Riddle. Um, a lot of universities have, um, schools, um, uh, have, um, I'm sorry, have airframe and power plant and pilot training. Um, uh, so the University of,

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  I I can't remember all of them, but anyway, a lot of major universities have this have this training. Um, so in the federal regulation, there's two paths. One is, I think, under part one forty-seven, and that's your formal accredited school. It's a two-year program. You go to school. At the end of your training, you get a certificate that says you can take your your testing and and test out and get your license. So you've basically gone to school for two years.

• 1:41:24Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  And then the other path that's less common is an OJT path that falls under part sixty-five. So if you've worked in the industry for more than eighteen months in airframe, eighteen months in power plant, or collectively thirty months, you rate the same opportunity and you can get this form called an eighty-six ten dash two signed off to test for your airframe and power plant. And so how that applies to us in the military. Most of us that are mechanics, you know, we meet that 30 months and it doesn't, the regulation doesn't actually specifically say what you have to do. You just have to be eligible and have worked in the airframe field, which would be like, you know, sheet metal work or line mechanic, you know, where you're daily servicing and testing, returning aircraft to

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  service. And then power plant where you're actually working in like a shop where the motor would go to once you removed it from the aircraft and tear it down, build it up, things like that. Or in my case, you're a crew chief where you do the line service every day, but because of our job and our specialty, we actually work on the engines. So we tune them, we trim them. And for me, I'd actually gone to the power plant shop because I was interested and I'd actually done some teardown and buildup with the guys on the GE motor. So, you know, some of these MOSs, they kind of straddle both the airframe and the power plant. So if you have the time in service, then you rate the sign off on the 8610-2 under part 65. Less common path,

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  but you know, very available.

• 1:42:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, very available for basically anybody on the AV or many people on the aviation side in the military.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Army, because Army has.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  And Coast Guard.

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  So everybody. Yeah. And, um, you know, there's actually some specific tools that the FAA has to address all of those MOSs and all of those technicians.

• 1:43:21Jocko Willink?

  Now you're, you're employed. You get a job.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  No, I'm not. Well.

• 1:43:23Jocko Willink?

  What happens?

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  I gotta go find a job. So, um, so I immediately start reaching out to these contract companies. In fact, the test facility had the name of this company. I think it was called like SDS Services or something. And so, um, I just call them. It's the first company. I call them. They, they're like, oh yeah, you've got four years experience, help, you know, aviation license, good to go. I think they hired me at like, I don't know, 18 bucks an hour plus per diem. My first job, Dothanab, Alabama. I gotta go all the way to Pemco World Air Services and pack up my S10, you know, with, you know, my wife's already used to me deploying, just another deployment. And jam across country to Pemco. I arrived the following Monday and I started as a mechanic.

• 1:44:04Jocko Willink?

  How long do you stay there?

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  I stay there for like, I'm on contract and the contract's three months. Actually, I think the contract was like six months. But at the three month mark, a spot opened up in Santa Barbara at Santa Barbara Aerospace. So I transferred to Santa Barbara, home on the weekends, and then from there I could start shopping around local for a job. And I eventually find a job at Martin Aviation at John Wayne Airport. And that's where I really cut my teeth as a mechanic.

• 1:44:32Jocko Willink?

  And how long are you there for?

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  I'm at Martin Aviation. Dude, I'm busting my ass. Like, again, my nickname is Golden Boy for a reason. Cause just shit falls in my lap. So I get there, I'm the new guy, right? There's already like, you know, 12 employees and I get picked to work on jets. It's a piston shop. It's a class four repair station. We work on everything from piston engine, little Cessnas to turboprop, Pilatus PC 12, to the General William line that owned the place. His, at the time, it was a 731 Jetstar that had four turbine engines on it. And later that turned into a Gulfstream. So John Walker was like the jet guy. He was known as Johnny Jet. And I get paired up with John, like, and I think what happened is John just saw I was busting my ass.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  He's like, okay, I need somebody that'll just bust their ass day and night. And so I end up on jets with John. And, you know, before you know it, General's turning his Jetstar into a Gulfstream G3 and somebody has to go to school. I get picked to go to school. I go to Gulfstream manufacturer training. It's like a three and a half week, $20,000 school. And all of a sudden now I'm a factory Gulfstream mechanic with an AMP license. And I mean, I got guys walking around the shop going, who the fuck is this guy? Like, how did he hop over us? Just busted my ass, dude. And I actually showed up with four years of experience. A lot of guys think that because we come from the military, that we got some, you know, that we don't have that experience. It's all the same. An airplane's an airplane.

• 1:46:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, especially when you're working out on a boat in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  They have no idea. Yeah, I remember, I remember when we were gonna put our, we own, I'll fast forward for a minute, but to give you some sort of boat examples and how, you know, dangerous and tight quartered and just the shit we did on an aircraft carrier. We used to stuff all those helicopters, all except for like four down into the hangar bay. We went through a hurricane with that USS Essex. Waves were coming over the bow dude, like seventy seven feet out of the water. You're out there on chain watch, like with a rope tied to your ass. And then sooner or later, you can't even go out like they, the, the captain won't even let anybody go on the deck because the waves are potentially going to wash the helicopters off the deck, right? And, and but we would, we would put that shit like two inches apart down inside that hangar bay.

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  And you're chained down, you got like eight chains on each corner, like they're not going anywhere. They're strapped to the deck, but that shit is inches apart. And so fast forward to like last year, we're trying to fit a global seventy five hundred, which is about the largest business jet you can buy. Um, it's got a hundred and, I don't know, a hundred and twelve foot wingspan on it and a twenty six foot tail. And our fixed base of operations, FBO is saying, nope, you can't, you know, our policy is no seventy five hundreds won't fit on the ramp, won't fit in the hangar. I walk out, I look at the ramp, I'm like, nope, it'll fit here and it'll fit in the hangar. Dude, we get, we had to get lasers out and then finally they're like, no, you gotta actually bring one here. We get Bombardier to bring it out and we stuff that thing in the hangar. So we know, we know what we're doing, you know? Yeah, they need like three feet of clearance. We need like three inches.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Um, all right, back up. Um, sorry, where were we?

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, so now you're, you're, you're doing this job, you're kind of kicking ass, you're showing up early, you're staying late.

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:43Jocko Willink?

  You get the qualifications. Uh, didn't you start your own cleaning business at some point here?

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  All right, a little bit, a little bit later. So, you know, I cut my teeth, I get to, I jam along at Martin Aviation. After I, I go to factory school, I felt obligated to give them a couple of more years, you know? They, they paid for my school. A lot of guys kind of ditch and run after they get a school like that because you become very marketable. Um, it was probably two thousand nine eleven happened while I was at Martin. So I want to say it was oh two. Um, I, I jump ship and I decide to start my own company. Um, I meet a pilot, has a couple of airplanes, not our clients at, at Martin. I, I've got, you know, morals, I wasn't going to steal any clientele. I, I, you know, drummed up some work on the side and I, you know, I resigned and, and started, um,

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  total aircraft management where we manage just a couple of jets. And, uh, you know, no sooner do I show up in my new hangar, the neighbors start coming over, everybody's asking me to help. And then a G four moves in across the, hey, you got any Gulfstream experience? Yep. Before you know it, I got like ten airplanes I'm managing, like doing light maintenance, helping them get in and out of the maintenance facilities, you know, just. You know, it's taken off, right? I got all these customers showing up and then it gets kind of dry on me, you know, all of a sudden, you know, as fast as it came, easy come, easy go, right? It goes away. And so I got a bunch of guys, contractors, a couple of employees. And I'm like, well, you know, let's just start cleaning airplanes, figuring out how to make some money. And you clean one or two, and all of a sudden, you know, the word gets out, you're cleaning airplanes. And next thing you know, you're out there wiping, you know,

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  wiping everything down on the field. And it was pretty, pretty lucrative. It was, it was pretty awesome. Margins were good, low overhead, you're not paying rent anywhere, just bodies, you know, out there wiping planes down. So, yeah, that was my first experience with.

• 1:49:30Jocko Willink?

  And what happened with that?

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  Um, well, you know, it was my first time in business and cleaning airplanes. And, you know, you, you, you get tied up with the wrong guy or the wrong, wrong client, and they can sink you really quick. So I didn't have that wisdom to steer away from those bottom feeders and got tied up with a couple of customers that, you know, tied up some money and things like that. And, and it just went south. It was just, you know, I was owing money. I was, you know, chasing, chasing a paycheck, trying to get guys paid. I, I could not stand the thought of not making payroll. It was, it was just, it was going south fast.

• 1:50:01Jocko Willink?

  Did, did the, uh, the market crash have anything to do with that?

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  Little bit.

• 1:50:06Jocko Willink?

  Two thousand and seven or something like that?

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  It did. It had, it had something to do with that. They started parking airplanes. Um, I actually did a couple of repos. Uh, we, we jumped in a couple of jets and, and repoed them for banks. It was kind of fun. I flew right seat for a couple of those. Um, it was cool. Um, but yeah, it, it kind of dried up. And, um, you know, I had, I still had a lot of guys, a lot of buddies that were deploying. Um, you know, I was watching the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, you know, from the couch. I hated that. Um, I did at one point, early on, try to get back in the Marine Corps. Um, we talked a little bit earlier about some of that. Um, I had some, you know, some damage coming out that really prevented me from going back in, which my wife was very grateful for. Um, but it just, it, it didn't feel good. You know, I hated watching. And so when things were drying up

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  with, um, the cleaning company and, you know, maintenance wasn't going well, uh, I, I had run into an opportunity to get, um, get on board with Navy Department of Defense out of Point Mugu. Um, again, it was like one of those golden boy opportunities, you know, it was like the neighbor like, hey, it's photo. And I'm thinking, okay, photo, you know, camera, like echo, you'll like this, you know? Get a nice.

• 1:51:16Jocko Willink?

  What's photo?

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Photography, you know, it was like the photo branch needed a guy at Point Magoo.

• 1:51:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, to like maintain their aircraft?

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  It had nothing. Well, I didn't think it had anything to do with airplanes. Photos like cameras like what Echo does like it was, you know, the photo department.

• 1:51:31Jocko Willink?

  So that's the job you went into?

• 1:51:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:34Jocko Willink?

  Doing, doing photography and whatnot?

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Well, I thought it was. And so I get on the phone with this guy, Steve Tack that ran the program. And it turns out it was airborne photography. And so I'm like, all right, I'm down. This will be cool. And, you know, we, we talked about it a little bit and, you know, I don't get the full picture until I get there. It's airborne photography, running a 1.5 million dollar telescope out the side of a P3 Orion. Looking at missiles, exo-atmosphere, freaking awesome. Like I get there and I was like, what? Like, I'm going to get paid to do this now? So it was, it was easy. It was easy to jump. I had to come on, on board as a, as a contractor. And I was kind of doing the math. I'm like, okay, I can, I can live at this salary for a little while, support my family for a little while, but I gotta make GS.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  Like I gotta get on with the Department of Defense. And we needed medical and, you know, I was actually physically really degrading. You know, that's a whole story by itself. I was being led down a path by my doctors and whatnot to deal with a back injury and a couple of other injuries that I had that really had me limited to just riding a bike at the time, you know, no more weightlifting, nothing. I was just riding this bicycle. And, and I loved riding a bike, but it just, it wasn't doing it for me. And I just, I had a lot of physical problems at the, at the time. And so I get on with the Navy Department of Defense. And in about a year and a half, I pick up GS. They opened up a spot for me.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  And now I'm full time GS 11. I think I got, I got in there as a GS 11 step five or something like that. And dude, we are, we're doing work for Missile Defense Agency, for Air Force. The Air Force had, they had determined, you know, mathematically, they were due for a disaster on one of their launches. So our asset was contracted for like the next, I don't know, five years or something like that to image all of the launches out of Vandenberg Air Force Base. So you're talking Delta Five, whatever, anything they were launching out of Vandenberg,

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  we were on it. And our, to put this in perspective, our telescopes, we could resolve 12 inches at 30 miles. We could see the moons, we could see the moons of Jupiter, right? So we've, I've seen the spot, you know, through our telescope. We had two, the forward one was visible. It was near infrared through, through VIZ or VIZ through near IR. Mine was near IR through long wave. And I ran that one on the back. And so, yeah, we were just, we were doing all those missile launches, which were freaking awesome, watching the staging, the plumes, the, I mean, it was, there's nothing like it. And we're, we're calibrated, we're spatially, spectrally, thermally calibrated. Like, I could tell you the temperature of the exhaust

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  coming out of the ass of that thing. It was, it was cool. It was cool.

• 1:54:33Jocko Willink?

  And how long did you do that for?

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  I did that for a total of eight years, two as a contractor, six as a DoD employee, because I got a 10-year award. They applied my military time to my service. So I got a 10-year government service award. And in that time, I got to work for NASA. We got contracted to be part of the NASA High Therm Hypersonic Thermal Dynamic Infrared Measurement Team. I mean, I was just along for the ride, dude. My, my boss, Steve Tack, who was fucking awesome. He was the grandson of Archie Smith, the fucking greatest aviation artist and Douglas engineer ever known.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  His artwork was on and maybe still be on display at the Smithsonian. Look him up one day. Fucking awesome. Well, Steve was his grandson and he was an artist. He went to USC, graduated with a degree in film and whatnot. You know, he was that kid that was out back trying to film, you know, filming like Star Wars shit and blowing stuff up in the backyard as a kid. But he was so dialed in, like he was so invested. He had developed the new near infrared system that I was operating with. A engineer, a physicist from Raytheon Photon out of San Diego. They had developed this whole system in the back.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  And he had worked with NASA, who had reached out to him because of the capabilities we had out of this P3, to add their NASA sensor to our visible system. And they had this special calibrated, it's probably some off the shelf shit. But anyway, they had this special sensor that they wanted to test to see if we could image the space shuttle in flight on reentry. And they wanted us to grab it at Mach 18, right? So here we, here we go. We went and calibrated our sensor. We had our, did our little black body thing and we go down to, we were stationed out of Corpus Christi with the Border Patrol guys. They ran P3s also, so they supported our airplanes down there.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  And we're gonna, we build the test support point. Steve and I would, you know, we build the whole plan. The Navy, their job is to fly the mission and they're waiting for us to give them the plan. Then they'll figure out how to get the plane down there and prep. And we basically, we get our trajectories, we have our little spreadsheets and whatnot. And we figure out, you know, our standoff distances, the capability, the turning of the aircraft and timing and all that, just to get us, because you gotta be in the right place, pointed in the right direction, looking through a straw, you know, for a needle in a haystack. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, how are we gonna find the space shuttle? It's so tiny, like, how the fuck are we gonna find this thing? And by the way, it's all manual. There is, we have a computer, but it's like 1979 DOS base with a one Hertz refresh rate. So even if it pointed in the right direction,

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  a second later, it's gonna move your telescope, you know, bounce it off whatever target it was pointing at a second ago. So we get down off of Corpus Christi and we get all dialed in. It's the middle of the night, like midnight, and perfectly clear night, though, so weather's good. Uh, we got our test point and we have three opportunities to catch the shuttle. There's three nodes that it can come in on. I don't know if you guys know this, but the shuttle, it actually decides, the computer on board determines when and how the shuttle will return. It's not done by astronauts. It's not done from the ground. It's done onboard the shuttle from an onboard computer that determines which one of these three nodes.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  And there's three opportunities to return per day, so nine nodes that it could come in on. And the computer on the ground, it only collects the same data that the aircraft does and tries to determine what the airplane is going to do, what the shuttle's going to do. It's always been correct, right? But anyway, just for piece of information there. So our aircraft is only capable of covering two nodes because of the distance between. It's a thousand miles between them. So we park ourselves in between the two nodes that are most probable and we'll, we'll jump to the one where when we know it's coming in, we'll get on that node and get in position. And, you know, all this is going on. I've never done this before. I'm like the new guy and pitch black down there. We're over the Yucatan Peninsula.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  And I'm just thinking, how am I going to find this thing? Like, you know, I'm gonna get fired if I don't collect, like all this stuff's, I know I'm not getting fired, but like a lot of pressure to collect this data. And dude, when the shuttle comes up over the horizon, by the way, it doesn't come from outer space. It rises like the sun from the horizon. I realize how all these UFO fucking sightings and whatnot come in because we don't see them in the US. But if you're down over South America or Mexico, you see something on reentry for the space shuttle that it, it's the most amazing thing you ever saw. This ball of light comes rising up over the horizon and comes screaming in at temperatures and streaking shit across the sky, unimaginable, that we've never seen in the United States because it doesn't enter over the US. It enters over South America.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  And dude, you can't miss it. Like, I didn't need a computer to point. Like, it was glowing in my scope so bright, like, right there, all I had to do is move over to it, and in a microsecond, I was on it. And dude, you could see everything. The windward surface, the tail flap, the tail, and I mean, it's ripping, like, we caught it at, like, Mach 22. And at closest point at Mach 18, we roll underneath this thing and just collect all that heat shield data. And I could see it all the way, all the way to landing in the Cape. And then two and a half hours later, we chase it in and, you know, we land at the Cape a couple hours later and deliver our data. But, dude, so, I mean, so fucking amazing to be a part of that and experience that, you know, that's the kind of work we got to do with the Navy.

• 2:00:19Jocko Willink?

  So then what made you decide to leave?

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  Um, I had, uh, I had, I needed, I needed to become, I needed to pick up GS 12. And to pick up GS 12, um, you know, our operation was tiny. There was only two guys in it. We're the only two guys doing this. And there was no upward mobility. So I had to move into another job. And there was a UAV opportunity available to me, being at, you know, I had a bunch of technicians, or, I'm sorry, a bunch of aircraft in this, um, R and D department that they couldn't get off the ground. And so, um, I, I went and inquired and sure enough, they were happy to have me over there. I was an aircraft mechanic. So, you know, help these guys get these aircraft, um, up and running and they could carry on with their R and D work. Um, and so I jumped ship, you know, and, and at first it was awesome. Uh, I got, I got the whole fleet up and running.

• 2:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Was that still a GS job?

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, GS. I went from a 11 to a 12, um, all GS. So I picked up my 12. And, uh, now I'm working on, you know, Pioneer. We had Predators, Pioneer. We had Gen 1 Predators. We had Pioneers, X Drone. All retired UAVs, you know, they sent them down to the R and D department. And this R and D department was developing a electrical CAN bus system, a standardized electrical system, an autopilot and a standardized ground station. And the idea was that one ground station could operate all UAVs across all, all branches of service, right? If this became the standard, for instance, you're forward deployed, you need a predator, or, you know, maybe even something smaller, you need an extra drone, you want to do some surveillance or whatever, you need an extra drone, Marines have one, you know, maybe a couple of miles

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  back. All you really need to do is bring it to a handoff point. And as soon as you guys can make contact with it, you could take over that UAV. But the difference is, is your ground station doesn't talk to our UAV. So we were trying to solve that problem. And once we got the aircraft running, well, then we needed a, we needed a, a plane captain to run them on the ground. Well, I decided to write a syllabus and make myself a plane captain. So next thing I'm doing, I'm, I'm running them. And then we needed a pilot. So, you know, all of a sudden, we got a R and D department building simulators and I wrote a pilot syllabus and I flew for about 50 hours in the sim, made myself a pilot. But I got assigned to a couple of programs with guys that were higher outranking me.

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  And, you know, I was relegated to just building hangars and picking up rocks in the impact zone for the landing, you know, in the landing impact zone. So I'm the only pilot, I'm the only mechanic, I'm the only guy that's, you know, that's trained in the simulator to fly these things. And I'm picking up rocks. And I, you know, I was kind of pissed, but I was like, yeah, fuck it, whatever, you know, it's my job, I'm getting paid. But they, you know, they started doing really stupid shit. Like, these are non aviation guys, you know, that need to be working off checklists that are accidentally stepping on the launch button and sending a 14 foot Javelin at 700 PSI out into the impact zone that I'm standing

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  in. This is two, less than two years after we shot our own ship, a DDG, with a test missile on, on range, you know, doing workups. And luckily, we didn't kill anybody, but they came and relieved everybody. The whole, the entire base got, you know, all the upper command was fired, the captain was fired, like, it was ugly. And all I just imagine is, hey, we're going to be that next freaking story. So, you know, I give this guy, I'm not going to say his name, you know, kind of read him the riot act. I'm like, you know, this is bullshit, you know, and.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  He actually reads me the riot act back, you know, like, so I'm like, okay, I see how this is gonna go. And, uh, and then it all makes sense. Like, I'd actually seen a lot of things over the previous year that I was gonna question, but didn't because I'm the new guy. But then I'm like, oh, man, these guys don't know what they're doing at all. They're like, they're playing with shit that's gonna hurt somebody. So, um, I end up, uh, getting set on another op. I'm like, all right, I'll suck it up. I'll be careful. But what happens, dude? They launch this thing again while I'm in the impact zone. And, uh, this time my boss is there, his boss too. And when they brush it under the carpet, I'm like, you know, now I'm, this needs to, this needs to go up the chain. And I told my boss, I wrote him a letter.

• 2:04:33Speaker 01

  And he was unresponsive. I got stuck on a hazmat program, sitting at my desk. And so, as I'm sitting there writing a hazmat program going, man, this sucks. Like, I'd rather been a low-paid GS 12, uh, GS 11 than, you know, doing this. And, um, and so that's when I started looking for an exit plan from, from the Navy. And actually, that's, that's where I learned about, uh, Jocko podcast and your book.

• 2:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  That's, yeah.

• 2:05:03Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you hear about the podcast? Did you hear about it from Todd Mailot?

• 2:05:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, about a year before, maybe six months before this, Todd, we're, we're rolling around in Connecticut and he's like, oh, hey, you know, Jocko's got a new podcast. Have you heard it? And we, so we throw one in. It was early, dude. Like, your mic sucked. You know, you're talking about, it was like some, some, you know, you were, you were reading, I wish I remember what it was. I don't remember, but it was a, it was a World War One, I think, um, book that you were reading from. Yeah. I mean, it was awesome. Like, I'm listening to, I'm like, I'm like, oh, this is fucking cool. Todd's not so impressed, you know? So we were back to Led Zeppelin or Bon Jovi or whatever. And, but I, but I made a mental note, like, okay, I'm gonna go back and check that out. And so, um,

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  So, fast forward back to, I'm at my Department of Defense position. I'm writing this, um, I'm writing this hazmat program and I'm, I'm disgruntled, I'm pissed. I get word back that, you know, nothing's going to be done about this dude that's running a program that I should actually be running. And I walk up into our cafeteria area that has a library and I pull a book, a random book off the shelf and it's called Napoleon's Maxims. I mean, I've heard of Napoleon, but I don't even know what a maxim is. So I start reading, I'm like, oh, this is like a law, a rule. And this particular rule happened to say, if you don't believe in your orders, you

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  need to resign. I mean, it said something different and different language. I'm not a scholar, but anyway.

• 2:06:37Jocko Willink?

  It's probably if you execute orders that you don't believe in or that you don't think are right, you are culpable for them.

• 2:06:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:06:46Jocko Willink?

  So as I'm reading that. We covered that, we covered those maxims and that's one I go back to a lot because that's essentially, you know, leadership. You know, if I order you to do something and you, you don't think it's the right thing to do and you still execute it, you're culpable.

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  And that's how I felt at the time. Because we were going to hurt somebody. We had guys flying equipment. We had guys in charge of operations that were going to lead to somebody getting hurt. And I already knew it was probably going to be me, right? Twice I've got this, we're talking, you know, the javelin that launch, it's a, it's a rod that weighs about, I don't know, 75 pounds that carries the UAV from the launcher. It separates at about 50 feet and the UAV goes off to fly. But this jav- giant javelin flies like a hundred yards. If that hit you, it will cut you in half. Like it will, it's a massive spear that comes out of this torpedo hole at 700 PSI.

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  And so, anyway, I'm, you know, I'm realizing that somebody's going to get hurt. I don't want to be a part of, you know, what happened a year and a half earlier or responsible for any of that. So it hit home and I left work and on my way home.

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  Some random reason I throw in Jocko podcast. And I'm fast forwarding, like I'm just trying to, just trying to get a sense of, you know, what this is all about. You know, it was like a, it was a longer podcast. It was like maybe four hours. And so I'm just like skipping through, skipping through, and I stop on this spot. And you're talking about Colonel Hackworth. And how he was at odds with the Marine Corps and he left, he retired and he quit. And you're like, um, Napoleon has his maxim, you know, and you know, you, you, you recite that maxim. And I'm like, holy shit, that's a sign. Like I just, I just randomly pull that book off the shelf. I gotta, I gotta listen to this.

• 2:08:41Speaker 01

  Right? And so, um, you also said something else you were like, but you gotta remember, once you quit, you no longer have a say, like you're done. And, and so that's like ringing through my head. I'm like, man, I'm a GS 12, um, like, do I really want to quit this? But, you know, it's the right thing to do. Maybe I could find another job, whatever. So it's only 12 miles home, so I don't have time to listen to the whole, you know, but I'm going to back up. I want to listen to this whole thing because Hackworth is a Marine. I'm like, this has got to be good.

• 2:09:11Jocko Willink?

  Army, army.

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  Oh, he's army? Okay, my bad. But I'm, I, I want to, I want to listen to this. So anyway, but I get home and before I get to the house, my cell phone rings. And it's this guy and he's like, hey, this is Mark Foster from Martin Aviation. And I don't know who Mark is. And I'm like, okay, yeah. What's, you know, what's going on? He's like, well, we had a vote today. And it was determined that you are the best candidate to come back to Martin Aviation as the VP of Maintenance. And dude, I'm like, three, that's it. You know, I'm done. I went in on Monday and I resigned. Um, I left my position at the Navy and I, I, uh, actually I went in on Monday and I, I interviewed, I went and met Mark and, uh,

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  you know, by the time I got down to, to Martin Aviation, which when I was there, it was, you know, it was owned by General Lyon, who I loved. He was a major general, Air Force, he ran the guard. Um, he, his job was to take, uh, B25s, Mitchells across to, um, the theater, like he, he transported. He probably did a few other things. I think he did some tours in Korea. I don't remember his entire history, but I think he was a. Major General, I believe. Um, anyway, uh, there was, there was talk about buying property or extending Martin Aviation property and building an air museum. And I was always excited about that. Well, when I got back from my interview and tour, the museum was there and it had seven operational

• 2:10:39Speaker 01

  World War II aircraft, airworthy, flyable, um, and Martin Aviation had been overhauled. So the little podunk shop that I had left was now a full blown, you know, aircraft shop with like forty or fifty, um, Pilatus PC12s in their service center, um, a few jets and it was cool. And I did, I like, I couldn't sign up quick enough just to get into that freaking museum, right? So, um, I resigned, you know, I go back to the Navy and I resign and, and it was no problem resigning. I couldn't, you know, like this was, turn the page. And, um, yeah, and so with the, it was funny because as I was resigning, you know, it's kind of like checking out of a squadron.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  You got to turn a bunch of gear in, you got to get a bunch of signatures and things like that. And I remember, um, I remember somebody in admin who I knew, she was like, you're a G, like, why are you leaving? You're a GS12. Like, you got the golden ticket. And when I heard that, I'm like, no, I don't need a golden ticket, you know? Save that for somebody else. I'm out of here. And yeah, that was it. Turn the page.

• 2:11:47Jocko Willink?

  So next up, Martin Aviation, you're, you're the, uh, Director Maintenance. You guys got the largest private Gulf Stream fleet in the world. Is that right?

• 2:11:57Speaker 01

  That was TransExec. That was the next stage. So I go to Martin.

• 2:12:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's TransExec.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you'll, you'll appreciate this. So I go to Martin Aviation. It doesn't work out so well. Um, I'm, I'm trying out my new Jocko skills. I've got my, my combat, um, my, my, uh, laws of combat and I'm trying to apply everything there. I'm reading the book now, you know, I'm fully invested in making myself the best leader I can. And I try out all my skills at Martin Aviation and just fuck it all up. Like it was, it was not pretty. And so I'm looking for a way out and I get a call for, you know, from a operator out of Van Nuys, hey, we got this huge fleet up here, you know, why don't you come up and be DOM for us. It was a charter operation. Martin Aviation was a repair station, you know, similar but very different. And so I jumped ship. I hired somebody that could take over my role as VP of Maintenance for Martin Aviation, better

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  fit, you know, better for them and better for me. So I moved to TransExec and I take over for the outgoing DOM and I take on seven Gulfstreams. It is known as the largest privately owned Gulfstream fleet. And I knew I was going to be drinking from the fire. I was I'm like, like if I can't make it here, I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm not supposed to be in this industry. And I last three and a half years. I could have gone further, but I was just, it was a lot of work. And yeah, it got, it got a little, little old grind and day and night, seven days a week. But again, a lot of opportunity to lead, to apply my new skills, really turn the shop around. I built a 12 man team there. We did a lot

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  of heavy maintenance, big, like 72 month inspections, which entail, you know, pulling all your flight control surfaces off, did a lot of engine changes, R and Rs on big, you know, 100 foot wingspan, you know, 80 million dollar jets. So it was cool. It was, it was incredible. And we had a lot of help, a lot of team, a lot of support. And so what'd you do when you left there? I got, let's see. I went to Clay Lacy for a little while. I had a friend, you know, that had an awesome position for me to jump into. And sadly, it only lasted about six months before they moved the operation to Florida. My family wasn't willing to go there. So, you know, it was time to look for another role. I helped them move. We got them all set up in a hangar and I told them, you know, right up front, like, I'm not moving to Florida.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  We'll get you squared away, find some help. Got them settled. And then I got on with a company called Solaris Aviation and that's who I work for now. I've been here almost four years with Solaris. I've got a phenomenal, a phenomenal customer that I support for them. We, we operate three multimillion dollar aircraft.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  A hundred million dollars worth of assets and my job is as um I'm a director of maintenance, but they don't title us DOMs because the company itself, which manages hundreds of aircraft, like three or 400 now, um there's only one DOM, you know, for the company. So they call us maintenance supervisors, but we're an extension of him. We handle all the regulatory stuff, manage the the um the scheduling of the maintenance, the the daily servicing. I've got a um a three man crew that helped me, uh two guys that are permanent full time and a contractor. And then we'll bring in contract support, um or bring the aircraft to service center for for heavy maintenance when we need to. But that's the day job now and it's phenomenal. A great

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  company and uh really awesome iron, some of the best out there, Bombardier. I have two globals and I have a Gulfstream G550. So I mean, it's I'm at the top. It's incredible.

• 2:15:24Jocko Willink?

  Now, you're uh hanging out with Josh at this time and then something happens with Josh that kind of it it from what I understand, kind of launches the whole idea of when warriors in need.

• 2:15:38Speaker 01

  Yes. So Josh and I, you know, we go all the way back to 1996. Um raced cars together, you know, I got my first street legal drag pink slips or um time slips. I still have them to this day, you know, him and his Cuda, me and my Roadrunner. Um over the years, we transitioned into motorcycles, um you know, track days, family camping trips. I watched his, you know, his his daughters get born. I slept on his couch, you know, when I needed to, you know, we just, we've been friends and tight for years. And even when when uh, you know, he moved away, he went up to, he moved back to Modesto area. That's where his family's from. Worked for Lando Lakes. Great job, beautiful family,

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  two beautiful daughters, um beautiful wife, um just, you know, he's a solid dude, you know, smart, funny, the heart of our crew, you know, the funniest guy you ever met, could could chew you up, you know, spit you out and you're kind of happy to do it, you know, like, all right, I'm cool being the butt of all your jokes because that was fucking fun. You know what I mean? Like, just make you feel good even while he's. You know, making fun of you. But super talented, great mechanic, very fast on a motorcycle. You know, I chased him around for years.

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, in

• 2:17:04Speaker 01

  it was 2018, there was an accident. He and his brother Steven were they were at the, his mom's property and they were shooting rifles. And they were transitioning from one position to another. And Steven handed his rifle to Josh. And when he did, Josh slipped, fell. The butt struck the ground and shot Steven in the heart.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  Killed him immediately. And they did CPR on Josh and Melissa, Josh's mom, my lover, she is so awesome. They, you know, they tried to save him, but he was gone.

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  And that was the beginning of the end.

• 2:17:56Speaker 01

  You know.

• 2:17:58Speaker 01

  That was.

• 2:18:02Speaker 01

  Josh loved being a Marine. His dad was a Marine. His uncle was a Marine.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  And

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  you know, there were so many things that you know, reasons why somebody could hate themselves or not want to be in this world. But had when, when he no longer could identify as a Marine, when he would start talking about himself, you know, in derogatory ways on top of everything else, like there were other signs. You know, that's, you know, I knew he was in big trouble. And it didn't matter how much racetrack we went to, we would go two times a month. It didn't matter. I was on the phone with him every single day. It didn't matter. You know, he was gonna, he was gonna take himself out. And we lost him in 2021.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  And then that hits you, obviously.

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  Dude, it's hard.

• 2:19:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And what was your, you know, how did that thought process go from recognizing like what happened to your bro? And seeing something positive in I can do something to help other people?

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  That process was, it was weird, to be honest. I actually started feeling sorry for myself.

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  You know, like on the couch, this happened.

• 2:19:59Speaker 01

  Alright, so we were, let me back up just a little bit.

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  We were at the racetrack in, might have been August of 21, Laguna Seca.

• 2:20:14Speaker 01

  Home track, like professional circuit, just having the time of our life. We had the best weekend ever. Families are all there, we're camping, like two day event. We're there for like three, awesome. It ends up with Josh, his camper is parked on a hill, not our normal spots. And I told him, don't load that bike without me.

• 2:20:37Speaker 01

  And by the time I get over there to his campsite, which is not next to mine, he's already got the bike loaded and I'm heckling him, I'm giving him shit. He's, his ramp is pitched almost vertical. I'm like, how the fuck did you even get it up there, you know? And as he's turning around to pop off to me, he steps sideways and it was the queerest thing I've ever seen. I'm looking right at his leg as the ankle buckles and the bone just pops straight out the side of the bottom part of his leg. And he spins around like a pirouette or something ballet, whatever, on this broken lower part of his leg. Flips kind of off the ramp and lands on the same broken leg. And the bone pops out the top on the other side.

• 2:21:22Speaker 01

  And I'm watching this like. How the fuck, you know, so anyway, he's laying there, legs like a noodle, you know, whacked out looking and I'm like, I start barking orders, you know, to his poor little daughter, like everybody's standing there, get a towel, get water, get, you know, I'm like, just focus, like broken leg, we gotta fix this thing. And I want to call the ambulance, he's screaming at me now, you fix this. And so I start splitting him up. We get him in the suburban, transport him and, you know, he gets, he goes in, he's gonna go in for surgery right away, emergency surgery, gets a rod in the leg and like four pins, top and bottom. And I just,

• 2:22:07Speaker 01

  all I can imagine is fuck, you know, he's gonna end up on all these heavy meds. I already had, went through a whole addiction with pills and whatnot, and I'm just imagining, you know, what he's about to have access to and go through. And he did have a problem with some pills and things like that in the back in the day. So it just, I'm, I'm just seeing the writing on the wall. Like this is, this is not fucking good. And so, so he, you know, he, he gets out of the hospital, I think two days later, we drag all his shit home, you know, and I'm, I'm checking on him, you know, daily. He's supposed to in November do this event called

• 2:22:51Speaker 01

  Turkey Days with us. We do it together every year in Buttonwillow, California, about two hours north of me. He's obviously not going to be able to ride for this. So I talked him into coming out, like, hey, just come out and, you know, his wife's family lives close by, so they, they went and they're, they're close by and he comes out about eight o'clock at night. And, you know, I could already tell, like, you know, he's lost a ton of weight. You know, he shows up wearing a jacket I bought him, you know, and it just.

• 2:23:25Jocko Willink?

  Just hanging off of him type scenario.

• 2:23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it was like, I don't know. It was just weird. Like I saw him wearing that jacket and I'm like, why is he wearing that jacket? Gave me, gave me something I'd given him. Gave it back to me then.

• 2:23:40Speaker 01

  And we're having some beers, take a picture, you know, about 11 o'clock. They leave, we're camping. Texting all day the next day, you know, giving them the play by play. My son's gonna ride the track for the first time. So I'm, I'm updating him on that. I'm actually starting my race school that weekend. He was supposed to do this with me, you know, we were gonna, we talked about doing it together. His wife was supposed to get on the track ride the first time. Like there was supposed to be so much happening this weekend, but instead, you know, he's broke and we're there alone. So Saturday's great. Sunday, um, you know, giving them the update and I don't get any response. So I think, all right, we're gonna drive there tonight. You know, it's a couple hours north. We need to go south.

• 2:24:19Speaker 01

  And by the end of the day, I'm like, I'm so fucking tired. I'm like, we're just gonna go home. I'll drop my son off, drop all the gear. I'm gonna drive up at 5 a.m. I'll be there in the morning. And at 5 a.m. I get the call.

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  He was gone.

• 2:24:42Speaker 01

  So,

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  I, you know,

• 2:24:51Speaker 01

  I'm talking to my Rue, his wife, his mom, our friends, you know, we're just trying to make heads or tails of it, but it's not like we didn't see it coming. You know, I'm feeling guilt again for not driving up there Sunday night. You know, here I'm feeling sorry for myself, like his wife just lost her husband, you know? So then I start thinking that kind of shit. I'm like, what the fuck? You know what I'm talking? You go through all these stages of grief, you know? You're doubting everything you're doing, you know, you're never doing enough, whatever. So we, um,

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  you know, I, I, I end up, you know, going into the holidays. I'm like slumped into the couch with a bottle of scotch and, you know, um, I'm, uh, falling back into my old patterns, you know? I lost my best friend, you know, like, I have an excuse to fucking do nothing and drink myself to death here, whatever. And, um, you know, I, uh,

• 2:26:06Speaker 01

  I forget.

• 2:26:12Speaker 01

  There's, there's a piece here that's important, but I don't know why I'm drawing a blank. There's, I'm on Instagram, which I don't normally, at the time, I never even did social media, but I love motorcycles and I, I find like this, this guy Billy, uh, he's called MotoGP Two-Stroke Legends and he's got like 20 followers, like, but he's got, he's got these fucking pictures of Kenny Roberts Jr. that are so high-res and I've never seen him before. And he's like, it's the coolest fucking picture I've ever seen of like a 1970 Yamaha doing like Mach 3 in Daytona, like, and it's so fucking high-res. I'm like, who is this guy?

• 2:26:54Speaker 01

  Like, and so I text him, like, you know, uh, there's a messaging thing. So I sent him a message. Well, the guy messages me back. I didn't expect him to, but he did. And so we start talking and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm telling him like everything, oh, I'm sitting on the couch, uh, fucking poor me, lost my best friend, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, listening to me and, you know, we're texting. He's trying to cheer me up and he's sending me pictures and like now we're direct messaging and, you know, he's trying to console me. And I'm like, you know, so what are you doing? He's like, oh, you know, I'm in Poland. Uh, I'm in the hospital. I've got cancer and I'm waiting on a liver that I can't get because my cancer treatment, uh, has to be under control before

• 2:27:35Speaker 01

  I can get a liver. And by the way, it's killing my liver. So every day, every day I'm dying, you know? And I'm just like, fuck. Like here I am feeling sorry for myself and here's a dude in Poland fucking getting treatment for cancer that until he can cure his cancer, he can't get the liver that the cancer cure is destroying. I'm just like, what the fuck is wrong with me? You know, like, am I really just gonna sit here and? You know, feel sorry for myself. I'm like, there's a whole family here that needs to be celebrated. There's, there's fucking work to do, you know, and not long after that, I'm

• 2:28:17Speaker 01

  sorry, Josh, I don't remember when your fucking birthday is, but I get a picture from, you know, from Josh, of Josh's headstone on his birthday. And I'm just like, fuck this. This is not how I'm remembering my best friend every fucking year, you know, a picture of his headstone on his birthday. We're going to have a memorial track day every year at Turkey Days to celebrate Josh, starting this year. And so we put together the first annual Josh Kovrubius Track Day. And, you know, that was the beginning of my philanthropy. And we, we had 60 people show up. We had, um, we had a, I had a friend

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  that I didn't know. His family was into beef. All of a sudden, you know, hooked on wagyu is coming down to, uh, smoke for us, like 25 pounds of American wagyu, uh, tri-tip, which was as tender as any filet I've ever fucking had. And, uh, they're serving up, you know, sandwiches at lunch. We got custom t-shirts for everybody, not a dry in the room. The place is packed. We got like 60 people, front row, the track days organization has given us, you know, front real estate. We're right next to the track. Everybody's coming to visit, you know, it's, it was awesome. We raised like eight, eight grand, I think for, um, Wounded Warrior Project. I teamed up with them, you know, let's turn this into a fundraiser. And we put my Rue, Josh's wife, on the track for the first time

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  on a motorcycle. And I shit my pants every, I couldn't wait for her to get off. Cause she drove off the track on every fucking corner, but, but she made it back in one piece. And I mean, just to see the light in her eyes, you know, just to see her daughters, you know, so proud of, of her and, um, you know, bringing the family together like that and celebrating Josh like that. Dude, I was, I was all in. I'm like, I gotta do this every year. And my wife's like, hey dude, that costs a lot of money. You're gonna have to figure out how to pay for this. And that's how, you know, that turned into um, the cleaning company that I bought. I'm sitting in my office like, I'm like, how do I do this? Like, I'm doing this every year. I gotta figure this out. I, you know, Michelle's right, like,

• 2:30:26Speaker 01

  you know, we can't afford to fork out the money every year, but I'm doing this. And so, I see this old guy out on the hangar floor, Glenn Graham, you know, wiping the wheels down. And I'm like, man, that dude needs to retire and I need a cleaning company. So I, I approached Glenn. I'm like, hey dude, like, uh, what do you think about, you know, selling me your company? And he's like, whatever, you know, like, we didn't really know each other well at the time. I was new to this contract and I just inherited the, you know, Glenn Graham, the cleaner with the airplanes. And normally I'd use somebody else, but I didn't, I, he's an old guy. I felt bad. Sorry Glenn. Uh, I didn't want to let him go, you know, I want to give him a chance. And, and so,

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  over time, we actually developed a friendship and a relationship. And um, you know, he, he comes to me like three months later and he's like, hey, I'm gonna be gone for a few months. I gotta, I gotta procedure. And I'm thinking a few months procedure, like, that can't be good. Um, but you know, the planes will be fine. You know, my lead's gonna take care of everything. So, um, I'm like, okay, no problem. Planes will be here when you get back. Like, go do what you gotta do. And we'll talk about buying your company when you come back. Okay, yeah, right. So, he goes and uh, it's only a couple of weeks that he's, now maybe a month. He's gone probably a month, you know, turns out he does have cancer and he's going through surgery pretty bad. He's gotta have his jaw cut out, prosthetic put in and a lot of other stuff. So, gnarly, right? Just through the wringer.

• 2:31:46Speaker 01

  And in the middle of that, his lead uh, texts me through social media, an advertisement for this brand new company that stood up and basically stealing all of Glenn's customers. And I'm like, man, this guy's ballsy. He's literally on the floor cleaning my aircraft while he's doing this. So I walk out there and I'm like, we don't fucking operate like this. I'm like, fucking take it down and don't ever let me see this shit again. Well, he ended up quitting like I that me calling him out was like now he's bailing and I'm like, oh, fuck, you know? So I start calling all the guys that I know that are using them like, hey, and they're like, oh yeah, no, he already hit us up. So I don't want to tell Glenn because I'm worried he's trying to recover from cancer like he doesn't need this shit.

• 2:32:30Speaker 01

  So he ends up, um, in a column. He's like, yeah, I know. You know, a couple of customers called me and he comes back to work early. And he looked like a bag of shit, dude, walking death, like, you know, probably lost 30 pounds, couldn't talk, was, you know? Anyway, I don't want to give you all the details out of respect for Glenn, but he was in bad shape and I was super worried. So, and the first thing he says to me is, well, I guess you don't want to buy my company anymore now that it's falling apart. And I said, you know what, Glenn? I'll buy it for exactly what I told you I'd pay. And I bought his company and I thought, that's going to be the first guy I help right there. Glenn's going to retire and I'm going to take this company and we're going to turn it into something and, you know, fuck all these guys, you know? And we did like,

• 2:33:15Speaker 01

  in two years, three years now, um, we've turned this thing around. I actually had no idea what I was going to do. Like I kind of was dreading the words of the, as they were coming out of my mouth. We tried to find somebody to help. I couldn't run this thing. I had a full-time job like, I wasn't going to be running a cleaning company every day. And so I call, um, I call in, I call one of my buddies, Nick Matthews, Marine, known him for years. And, uh, I hadn't seen him in a couple of years. I didn't really know what he was doing at this point. And so I called Nick though, for some advice and maybe he knew somebody out there that I could hire as a GM to come in here and help me run the cleaning company. Right? Just, I just needed to run. If I could peel a couple of bucks off to help the vets, pay for my event, perfect.

• 2:33:58Speaker 01

  And so I called Nick and he was driving home from work when I called him and he's like, you know, I'm telling them all about it. I'm telling them my vision, like here's what we're gonna do. And by then it had turned into more than, you know, just the helping, you know, doing the track day thing. I'm like, we're gonna do this track day thing. We're gonna bring vets out to the track. I'm buying, you know, I already owned a bunch of motorcycles. We've got all the gear. Basically, they just have to show up. We're gonna have this track day event, bring vets out, we're gonna build some camaraderie and then we're gonna turn them on to aviation. Right? We're gonna give them, this is gonna be the entry point for aviation careers. And, um, you know, I'm like, do you know anybody can help me? I gotta run this cleaning company. And at the end of it, he's like, yeah, how about me?

• 2:34:39Speaker 01

  And I'm like, you? I'm like, what are you doing right now? He's like, well, I'm just, I just happen to be general manager for the largest cleaning company in the country, right? And I'm like, what? Like, you're gonna quit? He's like, Ben, he's like, it's not like it was when it was just our small little, you know, Van Nuys operation. He's like, this is national. It's, I'm absolutely miserable. In fact, I was going home to tell my wife, I'm sick of this. And he's like, you're my exit plan. This is incredible. I wanna do it.

• 2:35:06Speaker 01

  And so Nick jumps ship, we team up and we take Glenn's company from the bottom to the top. We are probably the largest, not nationally, but like the largest market share in the Van Nuys Burbank area. If we're not, we're, we're close and we will one day soon. We are the absolute best. Nick is an incredible Marine, one of my best friends. I couldn't be in business with a better man. This guy, he is an awesome leader. He embodies everything that you teach without having read the book, although he does have the book now. And his team loves him. He is, he, all the things that you say about great leaders,

• 2:35:49Speaker 01

  especially like this recent podcast, you were talking about how your men talk about you. I hear his guys, our team, talk about him this way. They love him. The customers love him. We have, we literally have the absolute best company you could have. I mean, I'm sure there's more we can do, but we couldn't be in a better position. And so with that, we take this small little book of business, you know, and we multiply it by 10. And now we're able to fund a bigger project, um, which later turns into Win Warriors in Need.

• 2:36:22Speaker 01

  That As this whole thing is unfolding, I realize, hey, you know, we have this huge deficit, this huge maintenance mechanic deficit in our aviation industry. We're per Boeing, per NBAA, per Embry-Riddle, you go to any aviation institution, they'll say the same thing. We're like looking at being 30,000 short on mechanics within the next year or so. Like, we're already like at the 20,000 mark. And it's just multiplying, you know, year after year. It's not, there is no sign of it getting any better. And I know we have this ready-made workforce in the military that can plug that hole, but they're not coming. You know, I went down this path. I know how hard it was. I started doing some

• 2:37:06Speaker 01

  research and I realized, you know, getting numbers from the FAA, like, this is real. So we're 30,000 short. The military has 200,000 vets that get out every year. 100,000 of them coming, come out of air wing jobs, Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, air wing. And of those, 22,000 of them are maintainers. 22,000 mechanics. The FAA licensed in 2024 a record high of 1,500 mechanics. Of the available 22,000. And to drill down on that even further, there are 5,000 technicians that get out every year that have the exact MOS that literally

• 2:37:48Speaker 01

  just steps across the line. If you have your 30 months, you can walk into the FAA, get signed off on an 8610-2, and go test and become a licensed aircraft mechanic. But we're only getting 1,500 of them.

• 2:38:03Jocko Willink?

  So that's the goal of when?

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  That's the goal of when.

• 2:38:05Jocko Willink?

  So, so what are we doing at when we, we, we first of all have to find the veterans, let them educate them to let them know that they have this opportunity on the outside. And then you have to get them the schooling that they need to kind of get across the finish line, prepare for the test. If they don't have the schooling that they need, you get them the schooling that they need. But then you got to prepare for that test, right? Uh, do you guys pay for the testing fees? Do you pay for the prep fees?

• 2:38:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:38:32Jocko Willink?

  And then a big part of this, which I didn't realize is the tools. How much, how mu- how much, how many dollars worth of tools do you need when you start in this job?

• 2:38:40Speaker 01

  If you buy the right tools, and there are the right tools for the job, you know, um, they typically a starter set will cost you about 10 to 12,000 dollars. Most guys can only buy a couple of pieces of that starter set. And then, you know, they'll start financing it, you know, from, you know, from the Snap-on tool guy. Right. But yeah, to get started, to have all the basic tools that you need, it's about a 10 to 12,000 dollar investment on the Snap-on truck.

• 2:39:08Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 2:39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:09Jocko Willink?

  And

• 2:39:10Speaker 01

  And you, it's a mandatory. There's, there's a few large, you know, if you go to Delta, or if you go to Gulfstream, large manufacturers, they'll provide tools for those technicians, but everybody else out there, you, you show up with your own tools and you don't borrow. Yeah. Bring your own tools.

• 2:39:25Jocko Willink?

  And Warriors in Need is providing those tools.

• 2:39:28Speaker 01

  We are. Yeah. We, we actually have a partnership with Snap-on. They recognize us as a 501(c)(3) and an education center. And they give us a, a 50% discount on tools through their commercial,

• 2:39:42Speaker 01

  through our local commercial dealer.

• 2:39:43Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. That was our first, that was actually our first partnership was partnering up with Snap-on. We realized how expensive those tools, and they're important. You gotta have them. You know, you're not, there is no mechanic job that you can show up to in general aviation without tools.

• 2:39:58Jocko Willink?

  So that's when getting the people the tools that they need, getting them the testing that they need, getting them the education that they need. And, and then you also have relationships around the country with all the different places that are now learning that you're a guy that they can reach or when is an organization they can reach out for, to when they need mechanics.

• 2:40:15Speaker 01

  We're working on that piece. Yes, we have, we do have those partners and relationships. A lot of them are in the works right now. But, you know, more importantly, we need to get them the license. That license is, it's key. It's clutch, dude.

• 2:40:31Speaker 01

  If you don't have the license, you're looking at a 10 to 20% lower salary. You're looking at, um, your, your growth potential is limited, very limited. I mean, there's a few guys that work hard that'll probably move up. You can work for organizations that don't actually require the AMP, but most, um, the FAA is kind of leaning towards getting all technicians on the floor licensed. You know, it's, it's, it's sort of a trend right now. But the thing is, uh, you know, you, when you have the license, you have the freedom to write your own ticket. Um, if you're unlicensed, you're, you're at the mercy of an employer that will hire an unlicensed mechanic. So, you know, half the industry is not available to you. You can't have my job if you're not licensed. Um, I am considered a director of maintenance, 30 years in the industry.

• 2:41:16Speaker 01

  Um, to get to even step into that world or to be a, to be a DOM, you have to first be a licensed AMP mechanic. And then typically it's a certain amount of time as a mechanic and on the particular airframes that you're going to be a designated a, a director of maintenance for. Especially if you want to go to work for a air, air carrier. Um, you're, you're highly scrutinized, you know, you're, you're not getting those jobs without a license.

• 2:41:40Jocko Willink?

  Right. So then on, on top of all, sorry.

• 2:41:42Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say that that's, it's a, it's the most important piece is getting that license.

• 2:41:47Jocko Willink?

  And getting the license for a guy that was in the military, he just needs to get that certificate that says you're a, what is it? A 46, 82 dash two or some, something like that, was it? 86 dash?

• 2:41:56Speaker 01

  86, 10 dash two.

• 2:41:58Jocko Willink?

  86, 10 dash two. Yeah. Gets that done and then study for the test, take the test, pass the test and you get the license.

• 2:42:04Speaker 01

  Yes, it, it's, it should be really easy and it sounds easy, but it's not. Um, these guys in the military, they have no idea, like they've heard of the, the license. And a certain percentage of them, you know, know, um, a little bit of the process and might, might go do it. Well, 1,500 of them are getting through. But the other, the other, you know, what 20,000 of them. Um, it's a, it's a, it's a myth, it's a rumor, it's something they heard about. You know, they, there is nothing within the military that shares how to do this. Um, there are a few programs, but there's, it's just, it's not. You know, they're not targeting the the group, the mechanics. There's nothing to bring this to all mechanics like, hey,

• 2:42:47Speaker 01

  you guys are all mechanics. You know, when we go through TAPS, uh, here's this extra two day class for you, you know, for you mechanics or you firefighters or you machine gunners. Like there's, that doesn't exist. You know, the, one of the pitfalls and, and as much as I love the military, they create these cookie cutter systems. TAPS program, I think, has been in place since the nineties. It's the same program. It's evolved a little bit, but we recently connected with the TAPS program out of Yuma, Arizona. And we, we now have four in our program from Yuma, um, after one TAPS, um, event where, uh, this wonderful lady called us and said, hey, we just heard about you through another technician that was going through your, your school up in, uh,

• 2:43:29Speaker 01

  um, Riverside, uh, this is what we've been looking for for nine years. Like where have you been? And, uh, you know, I, I explained to her what we were. She, um, shared our, our program with the, um, the TAPS veterans and we, we got, I think, um, I want to say we had seven or eight call and we have four in the pipeline now from that one TAPS program. You know, um, and that's what we really need to do is provide specific training, specific transition, um, programs, you know, to, to MOSs, to job fields. Because using the cookie cutter method, the blanket, you know, even the VA, they've got five programs that are, their five programs are multi-billion dollar programs, right?

• 2:44:14Speaker 01

  And guess what? They haven't moved the needle on veteran suicide and homelessness in a decade. Why? Because they've got billions of dollars that they're spreading out over millions of veterans. And they're not targeting anybody specific, right? Our program, it targets a specific demographic and what we learned while we're doing our research, I didn't know this. But as I was, um, working on a growth plan, um, and looking at this full scale, we learned that, um, the tactical aircraft maintainers are the second highest risk group in the military for suicide. And we didn't know that. I, you know, obviously your machine gunners, your frontline guys, you know, boot slagers are,

• 2:44:58Speaker 01

  obviously they're at the top at like thirty-four per, uh, one hundred thousand.

• 2:45:05Speaker 01

  The, the.

• 2:45:08Speaker 01

  Tactical aircraft maintainers are at 30 per 100,000. The national average is 14 per 100,000. So we're targeting a high-risk group. We have the pipeline and the solution and we know it works.

• 2:45:22Speaker 01

  We've, we are working with, we've had 200 plus, you know, reach out to us in one way or another for anything from resume support to how do I get my AMP and, you know, of those, we've got 34 in the program right now. Some of them are hired, some are, they're at different stages. Some of these guys that have come to us were already in school, but not making it through the school. They're not passing tests. So we're helping them, you know, even though they went to school, they still weren't passing the test. So we're helping them get their license, pass the test. But the most important thing is this morning, we had our very first Marine come out of Pendleton and go through our program from introduction all the way through licensing. This morning,

• 2:46:04Speaker 01

  he let us know that yesterday he passed his oral in practice and he's now in AMP. So we have 200 plus in the pipeline for the next 12 months. We've partnered with a school, AVTEC Exams out of Riverside, California. They've been doing this for 30 years, training these guys. It's a veteran-owned organization. Sadly, the founder passed away a few years back, but his daughter had promised to carry on his legacy. It's kind of a quiet, unknown school. It gets a lot of guys from like March Air Force Base and through the inland empire. But now that we're teamed up with them and have our own, you know, in our own pipeline, we're looking at over 200 vets coming through our program in the next 12 months.

• 2:46:47Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 2:46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:46:49Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 2:46:50Speaker 01

  It's ramping up.

• 2:46:53Jocko Willink?

  But we only need another 10,000 a year. So we're at 200. We need another 10,000 a year, 5,000 a year at least to get these billets filled.

• 2:47:04Speaker 01

  Five thousand a year would be amazing. Um, there's 22,000 and you know our motto, leave no man behind. So yeah, we're looking at going after 22,000.

• 2:47:13Jocko Willink?

  Jack. Nice. Okay. So it's a warriors in need.org is where you can find it. Um, and there's some, I, you know, again, well, before we hit record, you and I were talking a little bit about the legislative, there's some legislative things that, that, that we can press on as well and that you're going to press on.

• 2:47:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:47:32Jocko Willink?

  Um, as far as making the, the, the, the pathway a little easier to navigate for guys?

• 2:47:40Speaker 01

  Yes, for sure. Um, you know, FAA is a double edged sword. Um, you know, they're our friend, but they're also their own worst enemy. They create so many, you know, tools to help, you know, understand the federal regulation. If you've ever opened up a code of federal regulation, the book's, you know, a foot thick and it's written in, you know, a foreign language for sure. Like you gotta, it's very hard to navigate. So, um, even though the FAA has, um, a lot of tools that are designed specifically to help evaluate veterans, um, their background and skill. Um, you still have individuals that are interpreting that information. You know, it's not the same guy. There isn't a

• 2:48:21Speaker 01

  standard program. There's nothing written on how, who, like, it's not automatic. We just had a vet come to us who is the perfect candidate, you know, works on jet aircraft, has the MOS, has the letter, has everything he needs to meet the code of federal regulation requirement. Not to mention he is actually a mechanic and he's denied because the individual standing behind the counter, you know, does not understand or thinks that he knows better and decides that nope, this guy really doesn't have the qualifications to be an AMP mechanic. And he, he himself probably went through a traditional school where you sort of learn about everything, but you really do nothing. You've worked on, you've never returned an aircraft to service. You've never

• 2:49:06Speaker 01

  worked in the industry and the, the industry basically knows that anybody coming out of school, the last thing that's said to them by their examiner is, hey, here's your license to go learn. Right? They really don't know jack shit. And if you go out to the industry, every one of our partners would rather have a four to six year, you know, F35 mechanic, Huey mechanic, you know, somebody that's been in the shit and understands timelines, quality control, safety.

• 2:49:34Speaker 01

  You know, not to mention, they already, they are mechanics. Um, it's just an airframe swap is what it is. And we do that all the time in our industry. These guys forget, I was a Gulfstream mechanic before I was a global Bombardier mechanic. They are different aircraft. The hydraulics are not the same, the landing gear is not the same. But they're both aircraft, you know? It didn't take me long to transition. Well, our vets are the same way. They're a well-qualified, very skilled, very disciplined workforce that is completely untapped.

• 2:50:06Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Giving these guys a mission. Giving these vets a mission, man.

• 2:50:11Speaker 01

  Giving them a new mission.

• 2:50:12Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding. It's outstanding. And supporting America, supporting the economy, supporting aviation. You know, I, I, I, I think I want to say I love the FAA because when I fly all the time and I want to make sure. I love the fact that there's somebody tracking and making sure that our, that our aircraft are well-maintained. And you know, like I get in and out of aircraft probably every week I'm flying somewhere. So, you know, for them to hold the line and make sure things are supposed to be the way they're supposed to be, absolutely. But we got these qualified guys that should be in there making it happen and, and making it easier for them in the long run.

• 2:50:47Speaker 01

  We, with the right partner, we can change the headlines. For years, all I see from NBAA, that's one of our largest aviation associations, from Boeing, from, I think it's AIS. It's a, it's an education institution, you know, from all of these big companies for years, year after year. We hear about the shortage. We hear about how it's growing, how it's outpacing. We're going to go from when we started, we were 12,000 short. This is four years ago. Just a few months back, NBAA launched an article that says we will be 30,000 short within the next two years, if not sooner.

• 2:51:31Speaker 01

  So, the gap is growing. You know, there's, it's outpacing everything we've done for 30 years to solve. And I've met plenty of people that, that plead their case and tell me what they've done and how much they're doing to fix the problem. And I just go, look at the numbers. Whatever we're doing is not working. We have to do something different. This program can solve that problem. We can take 20,000 well skilled mechanics that are already paid for by our tax dollars. We can fast track them straight into that 30,000 hole. And the article, the headline will read something very different next year.

• 2:52:08Jocko Willink?

  Yep. It'll say, "Problem solved by warriors in need."

• 2:52:14Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing. It's awesome, man. Um, on top of all that, you raised four kids. You got, what, all the kids are in the workforce. You got one finishing college. Obviously, your wife, you talked about Michelle. I've been with her for 30 plus years. Racing motorcycles. You, are you a pilot?

• 2:52:29Speaker 01

  I am.

• 2:52:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, how long, how many hours you got?

• 2:52:32Speaker 01

  Uh, I got a couple hundred hours, but I mean, dude, we can go down some holes. Like, I didn't tell you about this part. When I was working for the Navy, they found out I was a pilot, dude. I got qualified in the injection, ejection seat. I flew right seat in the S3 Viking, which is a tactical airplane. I mean, doesn't really have any guns, but had a couple of hard points. You could drop a harpoon or two, some flares out the back or some sonobuoys. Uh, but I got to do some chase in that S3 Viking. Uh, P3s are up for 12 to 14 hours. So I can't tell you how many times the crew was like, "Hey Ingram, you're in." Yeah, I have flown through, uh, oh, Echo, you'll love this, Kauai. Hell, yeah.

• 2:53:08Speaker 01

  All right, forgive me, guys. I don't hope I don't get anybody in trouble here, but I have flown the canyon that Jurassic Park was filmed in from the left seat in a P30 ride. Pretty badass. Pretty freaking awesome.

• 2:53:21Jocko Willink?

  And then you trained jiu-jitsu?

• 2:53:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:53:24Jocko Willink?

  How, how, how often you train?

• 2:53:26Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, not often enough. Um, I do watch more videos than I do actually get on the mats these days.

• 2:53:32Jocko Willink?

  Hey, man, I don't know if you saw this the other day. I literally watched an Instagram video from Miha of how to finish the double trouble, uh, footlock, straight footlock there. I come in, he's my first roll of the day. I get him in the, in the double trouble, straight footlock, and I legit have to do what I saw in his Instagram video. An hour prior and I did it and it worked. I was like, that's ridiculous, man.

• 2:53:58Speaker 01

  Hey, those videos are great. I mean, I I learned, actually, I started. So here's how I started. It's actually a fun story. So we adopted my oldest son. We took him in when he was 14 and he played football earlier, but when he gets here to our to Camarillo, he's like, I'm wrestling dad. Well, actually, Uncle Ubie. He calls me Ubie. He's like, I'm wrestling Ubie. And I'm like, I'm like, what? No way. That leotard is the gayest shit ever. Like, you were not wearing that singlet. No, like, that ain't happening. And he's he's stubborn. Like, he's he's gonna wrestle. So I'm like, fuck it. All right, I'm gonna come down here and I'm gonna see what this is all about. So the first, the first training session is called Midnight Madness.

• 2:54:38Speaker 01

  And I'm like, you know, they're all like, they're like 14. So I'm gonna drive, you know, so I haul like four kids down there to Midnight Madness. Yeah, big tough dad marine, I'm gonna come in here and see what this is all about. Dude, that practice was insane. Like, I saw something that night. I was like, what? I mean, dude, the shit there, when they did their first like up downs and like running around that room and I'm just, you know, I'm like up against the wall like, holy shit. And then watching them run the bleachers and there was football players in there that were dying.

• 2:55:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:55:08Speaker 01

  Like, there is nothing like wrestling practice. And I'm like, oh, well, he could use some exercise. Fuck it. But dude, what I realized is my kid's gonna come home in a couple of months and he's gonna be able to kick my ass. And so I was like, fuck that. That's not happening. Well, at the time, I'm traveling to Hawaii, like, I'm doing like 100 nights a year out there. We're working out of PMRF and we would, we would stage up out of Oahu. We'd stay in the Hilton or whatever there in Oahu. And so I'm scrambling. I'm looking. I'm like, where do I go? How do I learn some fucking jiu jitsu, right? This is like oh, oh, eight, oh, eight, oh, nine. And so I find this guy, Ron Chikari. I think it's Ron. Ron, I'm sorry if I get your name wrong. Ron Chikari.

• 2:55:51Speaker 01

  And it was a Helson Gracie Jiu Jitsu Academy right there, like in this commercial area between Oahu and and the airport, right? Some like shady. Like garage, right?

• 2:56:01Jocko Willink?

  Let's go.

• 2:56:02Speaker 01

  I sign up, right? Again, like surfing, I'm the only howly in this place. And I spend the next fucking two weeks underneath some 280 pound purple belts ass. Just, I mean, just getting manhandled, dude. And it was horrible. Like, I, I fucking hated it, but I'm like, alright, sooner or later, I'm gonna learn something. So, um, it wasn't long, you know, I mean, I, I stuck with it for several years, but I would come and go. And that's where I was training. So anytime I came into town, I'd go down there and, and I trained with Ron. And I was fortunate enough to, Helsin Gracie actually came in and did this edged weapon thing. I, I got to roll with Helsin Gracie, like, well, like attack him with a knife and then get choked out. You know?

• 2:56:42Jocko Willink?

  It counts.

• 2:56:42Speaker 01

  It does it, does it? Okay, thank you. Cause dude, it was awesome. Like, um, and I didn't know, like, I've heard of the Gracies before and I watched the UFC. I, I saw early, you know, um, I think it was Hoist Gracie on the beach. Like, I don't know if remember, you remember these videos, but back in the day, they would challenge guys on the, like down in what?

• 2:56:59Jocko Willink?

  Bro, did you just ask me if I remember the Gracie action videos with Hanks and Gracie on the beach? Brother, what, what are we doing here, bro?

• 2:57:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was silly, I'm sorry.

• 2:57:06Jocko Willink?

  That was a low level, that question right there.

• 2:57:08Speaker 01

  You're right, you're right, you're right. Okay. I think you talk about that at some point in time, too. That was a stupid statement. I'm gonna, can I back that one out?

• 2:57:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's all good, no, that stays, man, that stays.

• 2:57:17Speaker 01

  But I didn't, I didn't really know. And so, um, I had a guy that I was working with in like oh five, that he was into jiu jitsu and he knew who the Gracies were. We're literally walking into LAX one day and he's like, holy shit. That's, um.

• 2:57:30Jocko Willink?

  Dixon.

• 2:57:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:57:31Jocko Willink?

  Hoist?

• 2:57:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:57:32Jocko Willink?

  Hoiler?

• 2:57:35Speaker 01

  That's Helio.

• 2:57:36Jocko Willink?

  A Leo?

• 2:57:36Speaker 01

  Helio. And, and I look and sure enough, there he is sitting in the middle, like facing us, right? And the road, I can, I can see the whole thing, dude. He's sitting in the middle and I don't know who's there, but it looks like the whole fucking family. There's like 15 dudes, like sitting there all around. The kids are rolling around on the floor in front of them, like, I'm like, holy shit. Like, okay, that's the whole Gracie family right there. I have a picture on an old flip phone of, of these guys. I, I've been trying to get it out of that phone for years. I don't know how to get it to come back on, but, um, took a couple of pictures. Glenn took pictures with them. I, I was a little shyer, so I just got a picture from, from a standoff. But, um, you know, but, but later, you know, um.

• 2:58:17Speaker 01

  I understood, you know.

• 2:58:19Jocko Willink?

  The power.

• 2:58:19Speaker 01

  The power. Yeah, I understood the power.

• 2:58:22Jocko Willink?

  And so your older, the oldest son, is his name Zach?

• 2:58:25Speaker 01

  Zach, yeah.

• 2:58:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so he wrote like a, a real nice note, you know, to me. I don't know if you knew that, but he wrote a nice note just saying that, uh. So you, what, you adopted him? Wh- wh- was he a nephew or something?

• 2:58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:58:40Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome, man.

• 2:58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, Zach, we, we took him in when he was 14 and, uh, yeah, he's a great addition to the family. He's a good, he's an awesome kid.

• 2:58:49Jocko Willink?

  And straight to wrestling practice. Does he do jiu-jitsu now?

• 2:58:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He trains jiu-jitsu. Um, you know, he, yeah, he's an amazing kid. Um, all my kids are incredible. Zach is an awesome, he's an awesome story. I mean, we can go off on some rabbit holes, but, um, you know, two things he wanted to do in life that I was like, no way, that turned out to be awesome. The first was jiu-jitsu and you're gonna love both of them. Turned out to be the greatest thing for both of us. Uh, the second was to be an English major.

• 2:59:20Jocko Willink?

  I support that.

• 2:59:22Speaker 01

  Right? I know you do. And I, I'm like, dude, you're gonna be sleeping on my couch or a teacher, like both these suck.

• 2:59:27Jocko Willink?

  He very well might be.

• 2:59:28Speaker 01

  Well, he, he ends up landing a great job. Um, he did, he did, uh, four years at Cal State Channel Islands and, um, I mean, it went by fast, dude. There was so much going on. There was so much chaos, you know, and he came with baggage, you know, it was, it was work for everybody. But he's my boy and he's part of the family, all the kids, you know, they love, they, he's, he's our boy.

• 2:59:51Jocko Willink?

  It's awesome, man.

• 2:59:52Speaker 01

  And to, to, to go from the life that he had, which was really challenging, he'd been at like 30 schools before he even came to us.

• 3:00:02Speaker 01

  You know, to fast forward to his graduation from college, which I never even imagined he'd even make it to college, but he did. Um, and he graduated with pretty high honors. He was a writer and he, at, at the award ceremony, we got invited to listen to his, he had written like the script and they were giving him like this little piece where he could say a speech, something about his experience at Channel Islands. And so I'm coming home from work from Martin Aviation at the time. I'm smelling like fuel like I'm in work clothes. It was, you know, turns out it was kind of dressy. I was gonna bail. My wife's like, no, I'll meet you over there. She's coming out of work. We show up. I smell like jet fuel. Everybody avoids us. I'm like, let's sit in the back. Nope. It's assigned seating. We're at the front table. You know, I'm just like, fuck, nobody wants to talk to us.

• 3:00:46Speaker 01

  And then, you know, lights go out. We're just sitting there hungry, you know, and Zach gets up there, does his thing. And, uh, you know, we get to the end of the ceremony and the dean comes out and he's like, okay, you know, we're gonna give away the dean's dolphin award and it's gonna go to this person. He's the editor of the newspaper and I'm like, wait a minute. There's only one editor and that's my son. Like, all this shit. He's, my, my wife and I are looking at each other. And then we're looking at Zach and he doesn't even know, like, we're all starting to well up and then they call out Zach's name and we're like, holy shit, like Zach just got the fucking dean's award. And then the whole table just starts pouring on us like, we didn't want to give it up. We're so sorry.

• 3:01:26Speaker 01

  So they were like avoiding us. We thought, cause I smelled like fuel, but they didn't want to let the cat out of the, the bag and, and, uh, so yeah, he, he ends up graduating, you know, just top of the class with the dean's award and, um, and he ends up making some really incredible friends with faculty there that, that connect him with Sage Publications. And they, eventually they hire him at Sage, um, selling the, um, the criminal justice curriculum into the colleges and working with, uh, professors to write the, I guess, professors, professors write books and then they go on to write curriculums that they sell to other colleges. And so that was his role and, and he loved it. And then they had, ended up asking him to start a new territory in the middle of the country in, uh, Oklahoma. So,

• 3:02:12Speaker 01

  he moved there like second, seven years ago, you know, it was gonna be temporary, but he loves it there. Um, he dominates in the, in the space there, you know, he's, he gets his bonuses and awards every year, top guy, um, just kicking ass. So, yeah, recently married and, uh, you know, hopefully they can, uh, start thinking about some kids. It'd be nice to have some grandkids around, but just fucking whaling on it, dude. So. And, and I know we don't have time to talk about all the kids, but you know, my son, James is, is killing it too. He's recently started pilot training. Um, he's an athlete, a runner. My daughter Paige just graduated college. She's an artist. She's a fucking amazing artist. Um, and my youngest just started.

• 3:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Did she go to school for art?

• 3:02:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, she did, uh, four years at Channel Islands for art, but she was just a natural before that. Like, we knew it when she was like five. Like her stick figures could jump off the table and put you in a choke, you know? Um, and then our youngest has just started college and, you know, she's just killing it. So, um, my wife has done it. She's done a tremendous job raising kids. I've deployed my whole life, so I can't take credit for, for what she's done, but.

• 3:03:16Jocko Willink?

  You and me both, man.

• 3:03:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, you know.

• 3:03:18Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 3:03:18Speaker 01

  You know.

• 3:03:19Jocko Willink?

  Freaking awesome.

• 3:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, I mean, look, we covered a lot. Uh, I'm glad you, you know. So I, like you said, there's probably a million different rabbit holes we could go down and maybe we'll get, maybe we'll do it again and go. When you listen to this, you're gonna go, I forgot this and I forgot that. We'll go do that. But, uh, I think, does that get us up, pretty much up to speed for now?

• 3:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. Um, you know, I appreciate you inviting us on here. This is fantastic. We need to get the word out. There's a lot of good work to do and Warriors in Need has, we've got the path.

• 3:03:49Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:03:49Speaker 01

  We, we've got the, you know, we've got the formula.

• 3:03:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, I, I see a lot of business ideas and I see a lot of things going on in the market and it is very rare that I see such a clear solution to such an obvious problem. This is exactly that. I think it's outstanding. Uh, for people to find you, it's warriorsinneed.org. You're on Instagram, Twitter, X and LinkedIn and YouTube. They're all just at warriors in need. So if you want to reach out, what can people do to help? Just spread the word.

• 3:04:20Speaker 01

  Spread the word, you know, go to our YouTube, um, you know, watch our videos, like them, share them. Spread the word, you know, right now, our, our biggest path is really through word of mouth and through the veterans themselves. We're building networks inside of bases like Pendleton, Miramar, Yuma, uh, March Air Force Base. Um, but yeah, spread the word and, uh, you know, like us, share us. You know, go to our website. There is an induction form for veterans. There's also a link, uh, for sponsors and supporters. We could use volunteers, um, and we definitely need, you know, sponsors and supporters.

• 3:04:55Jocko Willink?

  There we go. Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 3:04:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:04:58Jocko Willink?

  Uh oh, here we go.

• 3:04:59Speaker 02

  Rewind a little bit.

• 3:04:59Jocko Willink?

  I think we're going back to teenager years.

• 3:05:01Speaker 02

  A little bit, a little bit. So, uh, when you guys were in the car, you guys endured that attack?

• 3:05:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:05:06Speaker 02

  You defended yourself successfully. Um, did you find out about the guys? Who were the guys? Why were they even attacking you?

• 3:05:14Speaker 01

  Okay, we, we learned a little bit about them. Um, so they were, you know, roughly thirties, you know, about 10 years older than us. Criminals, um, hardened criminals. Um, why they attacked, don't know. Uh, the assumption is that they just, you know, they'd seen us. Um, they were local from the area too. We didn't know who they were, but a lot of people after that attack knew. I mean, it hit the papers. So, you know, everybody was asking questions. And so we learned a little bit later, a little bit about them and their names. I'm not going to say them. Um, but, uh, honestly, I, I believe they're both dead. It was within two years that they were both killed. One was killed in a motorcycle accident and the other one was shot by somebody with a crossbow. So they were both gone within a couple of years. Yeah, yeah, trippy, right?

• 3:05:55Jocko Willink?

  Bro, when you get that crossbow death.

• 3:05:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I already know, bro.

• 3:06:01Speaker 01

  So, um, another interesting fact, um, Jocko, is that, you know, that caused me a lot of grief, you know, shooting somebody. Um, but it actually sort of got worse later on, especially as I was trained as a Marine. When I learned about immediate action and how to clear a weapon.

• 3:06:20Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:06:21Speaker 01

  Dude, I, I can't tell you how many scenarios I went through. If I had those skills in that moment, you know, because it was a stovepipe.

• 3:06:28Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 3:06:29Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't know what a stovepipe. I didn't even know what was going on, you know?

• 3:06:31Jocko Willink?

  No tap rack bang for you.

• 3:06:33Speaker 01

  No tap rack bang, no, thank God.

• 3:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:06:35Speaker 01

  Cause it, it would have been ugly, you know? But yeah, looking back, like, there are some lessons.

• 3:06:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when you said you had nothing, when you said you pulled the trigger on nothing, I was like, it must have been a stovepipe.

• 3:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 3:06:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause if it was any.

• 3:06:47Speaker 01

  Actually, actually it was a misfeed. It was like the, the, the spent round, the case was stuck in the chamber. And so another round had fed on top of it. So it wasn't really a, it was, it didn't extract. The extractor was.

• 3:06:59Jocko Willink?

  But the trigger didn't pull either, cause it didn't.

• 3:07:01Speaker 01

  No, it, because there was a round sitting on top of the case, right? And again, I, I, you know, I sort of assessed that, but it didn't understand it until years later. Like now, I mean, I load ammo, um, you know, I train, like I train, I do weapons training four times a year. I mean, that's not enough, but it's. I definitely know how to fucking tap rock bang, you know, and when I pull the trigger, somebody's dying if if that ever had to happen in the future, you know, which I hope it doesn't. But but yeah.

• 3:07:25Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy when you see in the movies, you know, like how easily people manipulate weapons that have never used weapons before in the movies.

• 3:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:07:35Jocko Willink?

  They make it look like it's not that big of a deal. But number one, it's hard to manipulate a weapon. I remember when I was training my my oldest daughter and she was probably like thirteen or fourteen. And, you know, my she could, she was very, very difficult for her to rack the slide on a Sig, you know, like very like it's not, you know, you see in the movies like everyone looks all easy, but it's not, it's not an easy thing to do if you haven't done it before. So the fact that number one, the dude had that gun loaded in the glove box.

• 3:08:06Speaker 01

  Right. And it was.

• 3:08:08Jocko Willink?

  It was a hot gun, like just ready to rock and roll.

• 3:08:11Speaker 01

  He was army, so he, you know, he'd already had tap rock bang and all that shit. I did not.

• 3:08:16Jocko Willink?

  But the fact that he had it in there, the fact that you remembered that he had it in there, the fact that you were like, well, I'm just gonna get after it right now. Like that's.

• 3:08:24Speaker 01

  Bro, I was terrified. I mean, having a thirty year old man, I was, I was eighteen, I think not quite nineteen at the time. And, you know, having a full grown man with a beard, like get out of his fucking car. And I'm sitting there like in the car by myself, like Rick's already exited, like I felt vulnerable. I'm like, what am I, all I could think of, I'm like gun, I got that gun and I fucking backed out of there as fast as I could. You know, if he, if it wasn't for Rick being there, I'd have run. I'd have just run for the fucking woods.

• 3:08:54Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of weird that Rick didn't, like you said, like put it in reverse and get out of there, you know?

• 3:09:00Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 3:09:03Speaker 01

  I fucking was, I was beside myself shitting my pants. I was like, what the fuck? Like, all we gotta do is back up.

• 3:09:11Jocko Willink?

  There's a weird.

• 3:09:13Speaker 01

  He was a demented dude.

• 3:09:14Jocko Willink?

  But there's also a weird like instinct. It is, and it's not a good instinct to have, but it definitely is something that a lot of us have. You know, like I, I tell the story, I was out of the Navy and I was like on a beach cruiser, beach cruiser bicycle, you know, like a fifty, a fifty dollar bicycle. And I'm driving down the road and I'm going down a little hill by my house. And there's an oncoming car and I gotta make a left hand turn. And I'm like. And you know, I just like increase speed and go into this turn right in front of this car. Any about 20 different things could have gone wrong and I'd have been dead. And there was this, by the way, there was just like a Tuesday afternoon, just no reason like two o'clock in the afternoon, I was going from point A to point B.

• 3:09:59Jocko Willink?

  No reason to take any risk of any kind at all. And, and I, I, and the left hand turn that I took when you went left, then you started going up a little hill. So I immediately like, I was going downhill. I take this left hand turn and now, now, and I barely missed this car and I'm going up and I slow down and I'm like, damn, like I didn't, I didn't even consciously think about what just happened. Like I, I was like, oh, I'm going to do this because it was a little bit of adrenaline. And like, oh, I'm, I'm on this, you know, like this is going to be cool. And I'm going up the hill going, damn dude, like you're a grown man. You have, I'm 43 years old or something, probably whatever.

• 3:10:37Speaker 01

  Flip flops.

• 3:10:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I'm literally in flip flops and a pair of shorts and a tank top and no reason at all to do this. And I couldn't, it was, it was the, it was like, not even a choice that I made. It was just the way that what it was, what was going to happen.

• 3:10:51Speaker 01

  Period.

• 3:10:52Jocko Willink?

  And so I bet your buddy Rick was like, oh, scraps, you know, like, oh, we're fighting? Cool. Like not even having that, that muscle memory or not muscle memory. The fight, flight or freeze is just, oh, cool. Fight, you know, like that's just a programming.

• 3:11:09Speaker 01

  And I did not expect that. Not that I hadn't been in a fight up to that point I had, but not anything like this and not with grown men. You know, it's like fighting my dad. Like that's what it was like. I mean, I was fucking terrified.

• 3:11:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause when they, they got that grown man strength.

• 3:11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:11:26Jocko Willink?

  And you know that you're like, this is not.

• 3:11:28Speaker 01

  Plus I knew I was bullshit. Like I, I didn't have any skill. I didn't, like my dad left, he didn't teach me how to fight. Like my shit was like, whatever I learned, you know? I mean, Karen, yeah, yeah.

• 3:11:40Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Echo Charles, any other questions? That's it. Good to meet you, sir. You seem like you want to go deep down that, that well.

• 3:11:48Speaker 01

  Hey man, there's been a lesson, a lot of lessons learned over the years. For sure.

• 3:11:53Jocko Willink?

  Ben, any, any closing thoughts, bro?

• 3:11:55Speaker 01

  I think we covered it all, you know, I can't thank you enough. You know, huge fan, I love the program, everything you do. And very grateful to be here, uh, doing this today. I have a phenomenal team. I'd like to throw them all out there and our sponsors and whatnot, but uh, we'll, we'll save that for another day. Um, but thank you very much.

• 3:12:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, thanks for joining us. It's, it's great to see you. Uh, you know, very cool to see you after all these years and, and you know, to hear the story. Cause I didn't, I didn't know, you know, I, I don't keep in a lot of touch with the people that I grew up with. So, you know, just hearing Heidi and she's doing well and then know that you, you know, not only did you come out of it, but look at you, you, you know, you, you got your own kids that you raised that are now do, out there in the world doing good things, man. It's, it's awesome. So, great to see you. Thanks for, thanks for your, sharing your experiences today. Your lessons learned, obviously thanks for your service to our country in the Marine Corps and thanks for what you're continuing to do today. You know, not only building your businesses, right? Which

• 3:12:57Jocko Willink?

  helps the economy, helps our country. Um, but most important, this thing that you're doing right now with the warriors in need. Yeah, I know it's going to help countless veterans find their next mission and is also going to help America stay on track with aviation. So, thanks for everything, brother. Great seeing you.

• 3:13:15Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jocko. Thank you, Echo. And coming up on Memorial Day, I would just like to say, you know, thank you to all the veterans, all those who paid the ultimate price. And the best way that we can honor them is by helping the living.

• 3:13:30Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Thanks, bro.

• 3:13:35Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Ben Ingram has left the building. He has been getting after it. In business, in uh, motorcycle racing and charity and jiu jitsu. He's been getting after it. And uh, one thing I can tell you, Echo Charles, when you're getting after it, you need fuel.

• 3:13:59Jocko Willink?

  We recommend Jocko Fuel.

• 3:14:02Jocko Willink?

  We recommend Jocko Fuel. Right now, I am too.

• 3:14:07Jocko Willink?

  Jocko Fuel Go Energy Drinks deep. By the way, new flavors.

• 3:14:14Jocko Willink?

  And they're really good.

• 3:14:16Speaker 02

  I dig it.

• 3:14:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and not just new flavors. New ingredients. So we, we've evolved, made them even better. So I think it's definitely a step up across the board. We're always trying to make things better. So JacoFuel.com, you can get protein. Can kind of get all the protein that you need. Kind of. And I do. I was watching my daughter go to school yesterday and she just like pattern of life, just two mulks in her backpack. And she, that's 60 grams of protein right there. That's just, that's just a baseline level of protein intake. Two mulks, ready to drink. So fruity cereal

• 3:15:01Jocko Willink?

  is selling like crazy because it tastes, it tastes good, but it also brings back the memories. You know, I had some memories coming back today with Ben. Going to school with Heidi. And the nostalgic feeling that you get when you drink the fruity cereal milk is pretty strong. And people, people like that.

• 3:15:23Speaker 02

  Taste and smell, by the way.

• 3:15:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the whole. Did you, did you, did you drink, eat fruity cereal when you were a kid?

• 3:15:29Speaker 02

  Not as much, but the cinnamon toast crunch.

• 3:15:34Jocko Willink?

  Is that the same as Apple Jacks? Remember, Apple Jacks kind of had a cinnamon-ish flavor to them.

• 3:15:38Speaker 02

  It's apple cinnamon for sure. I didn't get the Apple Jacks, but you said that the RTD, you're gonna have the horchata on, right?

• 3:15:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you, well, we have the powder right now. I don't know if we're gonna go horchata.

• 3:15:51Speaker 02

  RTD, okay. Either way, that's, that's, uh, yeah, that's the one that's probably gonna bring some nostalgia.

• 3:15:58Jocko Willink?

  So we got it. It's the best. It's, stuff tastes great and it gives you the fuel that you need. It is available at JacoFuel.com and also whatever retailer you go to, whatever store you go to retailer, that's kind of a business word. Whatever store you go to. Whatever store you go to, check and see if they have Jocko Fuel so you can get the good, the clean, and the best. Also, check out originusa.com for clothing, American-made clothing. You probably couldn't see it today, but Ben Ingram was wearing Origin boots, Origin jeans. So, that's what he's doing. He served in the Marine Corps. He doesn't want to support communism. He doesn't want to support the, the enemies of our country economically. Like, why would you do

• 3:16:41Jocko Willink?

  that? You shouldn't do that. You should support freedom. You should support America. You should support quality. You should be anti-slavery. You should be anti-communism. You should go to originusa.com and invest in freedom. That's what we're doing. Jiu-Jitsu Gis, rash guards. I'm kind of at a point now where I have enough, my whole collection of rash guards is all Origin.

• 3:17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17:11Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 3:17:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm with you.

• 3:17:13Jocko Willink?

  So, we got that going for us. And then all my shorts. I have a couple Stragler shorts, but everything else, you know, these, these are shorts that are 10 years old or whatever, but all my other daily rolls, originusa.com. That's what we're in.

• 3:17:29Speaker 02

  And you were saying the women's jeans are out, or they're about to be?

• 3:17:32Jocko Willink?

  Women's jeans are out. They're out. If you need them, order them quick.

• 3:17:36Speaker 02

  Ready to roll?

• 3:17:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:17:38Speaker 02

  Dang.

• 3:17:39Jocko Willink?

  Because they're going quick. So, there you go. Originusa.com. Get some.

• 3:17:43Speaker 02

  Awesome. Also, don't forget about Jocko's store. Discipline equals freedom. Shirts, hats, hoodies on there. Good. Get after it. Somebody get some. This is where you can represent on the path. So, quality stuff on there. I, I said this before, but I focused on the fit and wearability. A lot of people tell me that this is their favorite shirt. Sure, they like the design, but how it fits them. See what I'm saying? That means a lot to some of us, by the way. Also, we have what's called the Shirt Locker. Jocko named it. Shirt locker, it's a subscription.

• 3:18:15Jocko Willink?

  I didn't name it. Somebody, a trooper named it.

• 3:18:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, you just approved it.

• 3:18:18Jocko Willink?

  Approved it, but we put it out like, we'll be, I think you put it out, we'll be a cool name.

• 3:18:23Speaker 02

  Yep. Shirt locker, hell yeah.

• 3:18:24Jocko Willink?

  Shirt locker was not, it was a far head, like head and shoulders above the rest.

• 3:18:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:18:29Jocko Willink?

  From what I remember.

• 3:18:30Speaker 02

  Agree. Um, new design every month, subscription situation slash scenario. Um, also I'm getting ready to release one of the past designs. I don't know if I told you this. One of the past designs, I'm going to release it into the wild on the normal store.

• 3:18:48Jocko Willink?

  What is it?

• 3:18:48Speaker 02

  Be on the lookout for that.

• 3:18:49Jocko Willink?

  Which one?

• 3:18:51Speaker 02

  I don't know if I should tell, tell you. Actually, it's the sugar coated lies. One. People seem to like that one. It's one of the favorites. So I'm gonna release it. I can't say when, but very soon, within the next two weeks, maybe.

• 3:19:03Jocko Willink?

  Bro, I'm so glad that you have this policy of, you know, national security on your side.

• 3:19:07Speaker 02

  Hey, bro, I'm trying to keep it, keep it on the, you know, uh, but if you sign up for the email list, I'll email you the day that it comes out. How about that? So you can get the first jump on it if, if you want it, you know, it's a good one. Some people have it already. So it's cool, you know, or if you want another one, if it's worn out, it's a few years ago it came out. So. But yes, you have, you will have access to that shirt very soon. So if you sign your email up on the front page of Jocko's store, I'll come on the bottom. If I'm not mistaken, boom, I'll email you. I won't spam you, I promise. So yeah, that's all on Jocko's store.com.

• 3:19:40Jocko Willink?

  Check, uh, we got a bunch of books. Check out Put On Your Legs by Rob Jones. Check out Need To Lead by Dave Burke. Check out the books that I've written about leadership, about discipline, and then a bunch of kids books. Check those out as well. Primalbeef.com selling you some steak. ColoradoCraftBeef.com also selling you some steak. Check those out. Outstanding people, outstanding companies, outstanding American steaks. Check those out. Echelonfront.com. So we have an event.

• 3:20:11Jocko Willink?

  We have an event called the muster. It's two days, two, a little bit, two plus days. And it's teaching the skills of leadership. The next one is in San Diego, California, July 8th through the 10th. Now going into this, the thought was, people like to come to San Diego. People might want to bring their families to San Diego. Give people a reason to come to San Diego, hit the muster, then hang with your family, take them to the zoo, take them to SeaWorld. Take them to the USS Midway, take them to the UDT Seal Museum. Do all those things.

• 3:20:45Jocko Willink?

  And so that's what we're doing. It is July 8th through the 10th. Now, you can bring your family, like I said, and you can bring away the skills to lead your family. So go to efmuster.com or go to ashlandfront.com and check out the events and then extremeownership.com. This is our online training academy where we teach people the skills of leadership online that is available now. Also, I don't know if you saw this, but the Ask Jocko is available as an app inside the Apple Store and also inside the Android Store. So if you have questions for me, but you forgot my number or you don't have my number, you can just go to Ask Jocko

• 3:21:31Jocko Willink?

  and download that app and then you can ask me questions and I will be talking to you. Actually, I asked it yesterday. I was like, is Jocko a good person? And it was, it said, yeah, I'm a good person. And I was like, but you're not Jocko. And he says, well, technically I'm not. But uh, cause we're, I'm always trying to ask it questions to trip it up or like make it, see what it says and see how it responds. So I was like, is Jocko a good person? He's like, yes, I am a good person. I was trying to help people out by covering and moving and taking ownership when I make a mistake. And I go, yeah, but you're not Jocko. And it was like, well, it was kind of like, listen, you can get technical over here,

• 3:22:12Jocko Willink?

  but I am pretty much like what Jocko thinks. And I was like, but you're not Jocko. And he says, well, no, technically I'm not.

• 3:22:20Speaker 02

  Oh, it told the joke.

• 3:22:21Jocko Willink?

  It got to responsibility. A couple.

• 3:22:23Speaker 02

  So my son, now meanwhile, this is the, uh, one of the prelim versions of it. It was me, my son, Carrie, and the Jocko fuel guys were all in there. And we're doing the same thing, you know, we're having some fun with it or whatever. And but your voice, not your voice, the voice, its voice cracked a little bit for some weird. I don't know. It was weird, but it was funny because it was, you know, like how like,

• 3:22:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 3:22:47Speaker 02

  Have like, if you're losing your voice, it almost sounded like that. That's what it sounded like. Oh yeah. Cause my son brought this up the other day to my daughter and her friends. And he was kind of, kind of roasting it. He was like, um, oh yeah. Then you're like, hey Jocko, we heard your voice crack right there. And he's like, my voice did not crack. You misheard. Now this and that. And it was like, oh.

• 3:23:07Jocko Willink?

  Did it actually do that?

• 3:23:08Speaker 02

  It literally did that. Oh, yeah.

• 3:23:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's a little Jocko, Ask Jocko is definitely, he's a little bit, a little bit, uh, what's the word? He's a little bit more confident than Jocko actual.

• 3:23:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it goes hard.

• 3:23:28Jocko Willink?

  You know, when you live in a computer simulation, things go well all the time. He hasn't had quite as many setbacks in life as I have. Like things are going pretty good for him. He hasn't had, you know, things go wrong yet. And he may or may not, you know, because especially because they'll rationalize it to you. And be like, oh, like that wasn't, you heard, you misheard. Yeah. That's a rationalization right there. But anyways, you can check that out. That is, that is, uh, Ask Jocko. I will say this, it, the answers that it gives, you know, it's, it's built for leadership questions and it does an outstanding job. It really does. It is, it is very impressive. It will give you a very good take, a very good detached take, and it will give you some really

• 3:24:12Jocko Willink?

  solid courses of action and it'll give you some things that you probably, or yeah, you probably didn't think of a couple of aspects that it's going to bring up, which is pretty cool. So, check that out. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help the Gold Star families out there, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee's, she's got an amazing charity organization. It helps our veterans so much. If you want to donate, or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, check out HeroesAndHorses.org. And don't forget about Jimmy May's organization. I think he's coming on the podcast next week. BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. And of course, please, check out Warriors In Need. You just heard what they do, how they do it. Like I said on the podcast, I don't think I've heard, I don't think I've seen

• 3:24:56Jocko Willink?

  such a fitting solution for such a massive problem. Like, this is such a, it's perfect. So, if you want to connect with them, go to WarriorsInNeed.org. Please, spread the word to people that you know in the military, because this is such a great opportunity for them. And it will get them a job, it'll get them a new mission. It's just a great, it'll help, it'll help America. So, check that out, WarriorsInNeed.org. And they're also, they're on Instagram, Twitter X, LinkedIn, and YouTube, @WarriorsInNeed. And also, Ben, what's Ben? FlyBen46.

• 3:25:34Jocko Willink?

  On Instagram, @FlyBen46. And that 46 is for the old CH46, of which Ben was a crew chief, of which I spent many, many, many, many, many, many hours in, and fast roped out of many, many times, and parachuted out of, and just generally got after it. Those aircraft are like workhorse aircraft. They're like a, they're like a Ford F-350. You know, they're just like, hey, we loaded up, it's gonna keep going. It's maybe not the most beautiful thing to look at, but when it shows up on the job site, you're pretty pumped. You know what I'm saying?

• 3:26:16Jocko Willink?

  So check that out and then to connect with us, uh, you can check out jocko.com and then on social media, I'm at jocko willing echoes at echo charles. We're there, you know, sometimes, but we're also very weary of the algorithm that is being manipulated by a bunch of people with a bunch of agendas and not one of those people has the agenda of making you smarter, stronger, faster, or better. They have the agenda of taking your time away from you and selling you something. So use caution. And, uh, thanks to Ben, once again, for coming on. Awesome to see you. And thanks to all of our military, army, navy, air force, marines.

• 3:26:57Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for everything that you do. And, and with a special thanks today to the aviation maintenance professionals. Like I said, I spent countless hours flying in army, navy, air force, and marine corps aircraft, whether it was transport aircraft, whether it was helicopters, and having them flying overhead, overhead support, whether they were attack helicopters or whatever, attack aircraft. Our military aviation has never let me down. And as thanks to those crews that keep those birds running. So thanks to all y'all. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, and EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thanks for what

• 3:27:40Jocko Willink?

  you do here at home to keep us safe. And everyone else out there, you need a mission.

• 3:27:48Jocko Willink?

  And as Henry Rollins once said, "Not a gig or a good time, but a mission." And believe me, when I was 14 years old, I heard that. See, a gig or a good time, they don't really have any challenge. They don't have any real purpose. And so therefore, there's kind of a lack of meaning. So you don't just need a gig or a good time, you need a mission. And I will say that most of the time, a mission just doesn't appear. This isn't like in the military where even the military, it's not like, hey, we got this mission tasking. It's time to go. That, that rarely happened to me. Normally, we had to generate the missions. So you gotta work for the missions. You gotta look for the missions. You gotta find the gaps. You gotta find the opportunities. You gotta look where people are struggling.

• 3:28:35Jocko Willink?

  Figure out who needs help. And then go into those areas, lean into those areas, get active. And eventually you'll find your mission and get it done.

• 3:28:48Jocko Willink?

  That's all we've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.