High Stakes with HRC: The Midterms Prep Episode

Welcome back to another episode of High Stakes, a limited series from Kara Swisher and co-host Hillary Clinton. It’s the last week before the midterms. Kara and Hillary hone in on the nation’s tightest deadlocks and most consequential House, Senate, and gubernatorial races. The Secretary touches on what it feels like to experience the pre-midterm week from the other side of the ballot. The two discuss final hail-marys in the mis- and disinformation space leading up to the vote…and remember Pizzagate. Remember: vote! Also: Happy birthday, Ma’am. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:04Speaker 02

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• 1:41Kara Swisher?

  I think you in prison, Kara, would be a reality show that I would sign up to watch.

• 1:57Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kara Swisher.

• 1:59Speaker 05

  And I'm Hillary Clinton.

• 2:01Kara Swisher?

  And happy birthday to you.

• 2:04Speaker 05

  Thank you, Kara. I'm in Japan, celebrating my birthday, among other things.

• 2:08Kara Swisher?

  What are you doing? You're going for whiskey, I assume, if it's Hillary Clinton.

• 2:11Speaker 05

  Well, there's a little of that going on. But I am the US advisor to something called the Premium Imperiali, which is this incredible program where the Japan Art Association and the Imperial household give out what are kind of the equivalent of the Nobel Prizes to the arts.

• 2:29Kara Swisher?

  Did you do anything fun, fun? Like, I mean, that sounds fun and very worthy. That sounds worthy.

• 2:34Speaker 05

  No, well, you and I have talked about this, that, you know, part of what we're trying to do with our podcast and so much else is to close the fun deficit in America.

• 2:41Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 2:42Speaker 05

  Because it's been pretty grim the last couple of years. So, yeah, and I had a fabulous birthday dinner with a bunch of friends at one of my favorite restaurants in Tokyo.

• 2:52Kara Swisher?

  I know the name of it. What is it?

• 2:53Speaker 05

  It's called the Blind Donkey, and that is not a political comment.

• 2:58Kara Swisher?

  That's great. Wow.

• 2:59Speaker 05

  It was so much. Next time you're in Tokyo, I want you to go.

• 3:03Kara Swisher?

  You know, I lived there for a short time period. I did a fellowship.

• 3:05Speaker 05

  I didn't know that.

• 3:06Kara Swisher?

  Yes, I loved it, right after my son Louis was born. And I loved it, and I just loved living in Tokyo. I thought it was the best experience.

• 3:12Speaker 05

  It's a fabulous city.

• 3:13Kara Swisher?

  It really is.

• 3:14Speaker 05

  We could learn a lot from how they organize themselves and how they provide services. Yeah, I wish we would, like, humble ourselves enough to learn how some other countries actually produce really good public transport and enough housing in a city of 20 million plus people.

• 3:32Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, Korea, South Korea is similar. I mean, there's a lot of really great ideas across the globe. That's great. You're globe trotting. In other words, you know, back here at home, Elon Musk threatened my life.

• 3:44Kara Swisher?

  I shouldn't laugh. Hillary, speaking of Japan, you need to get me a sword because I have to be in a sword fight with him. You need to get me a nice, sharp blade.

• 3:52Speaker 05

  I'm going to get you a samurai sword.

• 3:54Kara Swisher?

  A samurai sword.

• 3:55Speaker 05

  Because you're a warrior queen, right?

• 3:56Kara Swisher?

  I know you're on the receiving end of all these kind of things, but I got to tell you, it gets old pretty quick.

• 4:02Speaker 05

  It gets old. You know, these guys, you know, they can't win arguments. They, I don't think, can win as many elections as they believe. And so they threaten people, and they intimidate people, and they are constantly in your face. And I'm sick of it. I'm tired of the cruelty and the bullying. And we've got to, you know, begin to turn it around starting next Tuesday.

• 4:25Kara Swisher?

  Any tips? Any tips to have to deal? He also said, I was going to prison. I was thinking, I'll put in to be with you because, you know, you're a lock her up lady.

• 4:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, look, I think you and I, again, we could, you know, have a good time because I get threatened practically every day. Lock her up, as you know, was kind of a popular chant.

• 4:41Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I heard that. I heard that. I heard about that. We should, we would totally run the prison. We would run the yard. We would, like, be the tough ones, right? Don't you think? Just run the place.

• 4:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think you in prison, Kara, would be a reality show that I would sign up to watch.

• 4:59Kara Swisher?

  Walt Mossberg, whom you know, is my longtime partner many years ago, said, the only way I'm going to prison is if I'm interviewing Elon Musk there.

• 5:11Kara Swisher?

  Not that I want him. I mean, nobody should go to prison. It's all a bit of a homes.

• 5:14Speaker 05

  It is sort of a backhanded compliment that he pays so much attention to you and threatens you when you say things that are truthful, so.

• 5:21Kara Swisher?

  I guess. I don't know. It's really not great. It's not a great thing, and I don't know how you do it day after day. Anyway, welcome to our new show. By the way, I didn't introduce it from Vox Media Podcast Network, High Stakes, but we've got a lot to get to. And you, and thank you for calling in from Japan on your birthday. I really appreciate it. But it's critical, Hillary. People want to hear what you have to say. So, less than a week to go until Election Day with control of Congress on the line. Republicans hold the Senate 53 to 47 in the House. By a handful of seats, flip either one, the Trump's last two years look very different. So today, we're giving you a midterm preview. Next week, we'll be talking about the results of the Senate, the House, and the governors who'll run the 2028 election. But first, Madam Secretary, I want you to get your take. This happened today, but to get your take

• 6:05Kara Swisher?

  on the international elections in Brazil and Serbia, especially Serbia. The strongmen in Serbia, very close ally of Putin, as Orban was, lost and conceded. Bolsonaro Jr. in Brazil lost and won't concede. Obviously, his father's in jail, and one of his things was getting him out. And Lula won. So talk a little bit about just days before the midterms. Which of these two looks more like the United States? And by the way, we're recording this before Israel votes, and I'd love to know what you think is going to happen there.

• 6:33Speaker 05

  You know, Kara, I was really impressed by both Serbia and Brazil, but for different reasons.

• 6:39Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  The protests in Serbia against the Vucic government, the authoritarian government that has been increasingly oppressive and increasingly aligned with Russia, has been the subject of a lot of political protests by largely young people. They have been in the streets for a couple of years, off and on, you know, basically demanding more rights, demanding more of a commitment to turn toward Europe and away from Russia, you know, looking for more economic and educational opportunities. And they organized. You know, they didn't just go into the streets and protest. They organized politically and put together candidates

• 7:23Speaker 05

  that challenged the authoritarian government and actually won. They won the election. And to Vucic's credit, he conceded early because he knew that he'd lost. He didn't pull a Trump ploy to try to stay in power. He recognized that he had been turned out by the people.

• 7:42Kara Swisher?

  Like in Hungary and other places that happened.

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, like Hungary, yeah. So I think that the example in Serbia is, you know, nonviolent protests demonstrating over an agenda of change that you want to see in your country. But combining it with political action is not enough just to go out in the streets and protest. Are you going to have a political party? Are you going to run candidates? And, you know, the Serbian election proved that if you combine your discontent and your grievances with actual political action, you can make a difference. The Lula election is a little different, and it's fascinating. You know, he came in second to the, you know, Bolsonaro Jr.

• 8:21Kara Swisher?

  In the runoff, right?

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, and then went to a runoff. And what I loved about this runoff is two things happened. It woke up Lula and his party because, you know, they lost in the first round, and they had to get their act together. And they did it in a couple of ways. They did it by really organizing more deeply and widely, particularly in and around the big cities like Rio and, you know, all the rest. And they, they really did reach out to voters and make their case. But the other thing that happened is Lula went on social media, something he had not done before. He had kind of resisted being a social media character. He's an old fashioned politician. I think he turns 81 or something this week.

• 9:05Speaker 05

  You know, more power to him because what he did was to combine organizing, deep, broad organizing, with communications. And he literally was on TikTok and Instagram, and people were so shocked to see him and his allies doing dances and songs and making appeals. And they turned out 10 million more voters. So I think there are lessons from both of these elections, not just for us, but for people who want change all over the world.

• 9:34Kara Swisher?

  Right now, listen, in Brazil, Bolsonaro Jr. is not conceding, and Trump, of course, is saying there is something fishy going on. He's not quite committing to the bit yet, but he's certainly raising the idea of election fraud.

• 9:47Speaker 05

  Right. Well, you know, that's their go-to argument whenever they lose an election.

• 9:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, when they win, it's, I won. When they lose, it's, it was fixed.

• 9:55Speaker 05

  Right. When they win, everything's fine with the elections. When they lose, ah, the elections were rigged, something, you know, happened to upset the predicted victory for them and their allies. So I really feel like what we've got here is a great example of how to stand up to intimidation, because one of the messages that was being conveyed in Brazil was not just vote for Lula, but stand up to Trump and candidates that Trump endorses and stop the kind of slide toward Trumpism in Latin America. And it proved to be pretty effective, obviously.

• 10:29Kara Swisher?

  Right. And what do you imagine is going to happen? Because he's got a conservative Congress, so it's very conservative. Obviously, the Bolsonaros aren't going away. The sun is obviously going to continue to be an irritant. The stock market's, you know, dropped rather precipitously. What happens in places? And also, what happens in Serbia? Does this devolve into chaos? Because it could, right? You could have a movement, and then you win, and you're like the dog that caught the car.

• 10:53Speaker 05

  Well, we don't know. I mean, Hungary certainly stabilized after.

• 10:57Kara Swisher?

  But that was a stable politician who had been in office. I mean, he'd been in experience.

• 11:02Speaker 05

  Well, yes, but it wasn't clear exactly what would happen next and what kind of rear-guard actions Orban and his party might be attempting. And, you know, they've stabilized, they're beginning to pass legislation and seemingly to govern effectively. We're going to have to wait and see in Serbia, but I'm optimistic that the planning that went in to the political victory will manifest itself in governance. And in Brazil, now that Lula has recognized the importance of digital organizing and communicating, if he continues that while governing and he keeps the people involved

• 11:44Speaker 05

  so they don't get shut out and becomes a right-left fight again, Lula and his government against a Congress that is, you know, very negative about his agenda and a Supreme Court that intervenes from time to time, but instead, if Lula takes the lessons that he learned in this runoff, and he basically keeps the people with him, like, here's what we're trying to do, here is the case we're trying to make, here's what it will mean to your life, it could be quite a different kind of reaction than I think we might have expected.

• 12:16Kara Swisher?

  And what does that do for Putin in this case? He's lost two really strong allies in the area.

• 12:22Speaker 05

  Yeah. You know, it made me think of the situation that I found when I went to Egypt after Mubarak was forced to resign, and these young people had been in the streets, and they had been so forceful in their demands for change and that the dictator must go. And then I went to meet with them in a, you know, big room, about 30, 40 people there who had led what they called the Facebook Revolution at that time. And I said, great, okay, you have toppled the dictator. Now, are you going to form a political party? Are you going to run for office? And their response was, oh, no, we don't do that. I said, well, if you don't do that, you're going to be ruled by either, one of the two organized groups in Egypt, namely, the Muslim Brotherhood or the army.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  And they couldn't see their way to politics. So the difference in Serbia, I hope, is that these young people didn't just protest and demand change, they have an agenda, they have, you know, a political party and plan, and let's hope that they can carry through.

• 13:24Kara Swisher?

  Right. And both of them are blows to Donald Trump, both of these. Now, Israel, another place that's about, now, prediction?

• 13:31Speaker 05

  You know, I am really hoping that the Netanyahu coalition does not get to the number of votes that they need in the Knesset to form a government, and that Eisenkot and allies that are against Netanyahu, that is their, you know, their uniting reason, they're against Netanyahu and the way he has governed Israel, can get, in this election, the 61 votes they need in the Knesset to form a government. I think it's going to be.

• 14:05Kara Swisher?

  That's the issue.

• 14:06Speaker 05

  It's going to be really hard, Kara, because there are personalities that, you know, are vying to become prime minister. There are coalitions that are kind of dicey about whether they get put together or not. So we have to wait and see. I hope that the coalition, and when I say coalition, it's not a formal coalition, but the parties against Netanyahu come together and agree to govern.

• 14:34Kara Swisher?

  You're worried. You sound worried.

• 14:35Speaker 05

  I am worried because.

• 14:36Kara Swisher?

  This is where Netanyahu always comes up the middle, right? This is what he always does, because it's.

• 14:40Speaker 05

  Well, he is a wily politician. I mean, I think he's done.

• 14:44Kara Swisher?

  Right, it's like a chess match.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  He's done great damage to Israel and to the Israel-American relationship, as we all know, but you never can count him out. And he's willing to make alliances with anybody, no matter how odious their politics might be, in order to stay in power. And one of the things that could happen is nobody gets enough votes, and so there's a caretaker government. And sadly, Netanyahu stays in power until they have another election, which, you know, might happen sometime next year. So this is really up in the air, and we're not going to know until we see what happens from the votes. A lot of Americans who have the right to vote in Israel are flying home to vote, because they don't have something that we have, thankfully, like mail-in ballots, absentee voting.

• 15:29Speaker 05

  They have to vote in person. So literally Israelis are flying in from all over the world to be able to vote. So I can't predict how it's going to turn out. I know what I want to see happen.

• 15:41Kara Swisher?

  There's been a lot of protests and rallies.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm very impressed with Eisenkot and with the way that he's conducted himself. He's a general, he's not a politician. He lost both his son and his nephew. I mean, he knows what's at stake.

• 15:55Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he's not like the most, like, he's not, Netanyahu's very charismatic. This guy is just like meat and potatoes.

• 16:02Speaker 05

  Well, Netanyahu, you know, he is a very effective politician. That's why he's been in power for so many years, off and on. And I think it's done great damage, as he's gotten more and more focused on himself personally, the threats from the criminal corruption trials and, you know, all that he's facing, the threat of a truly independent commission to try to figure out exactly what happened before October 7th and on October 7th, you know, just things that he wants to avoid, because he never wants to be held accountable.

• 16:33Kara Swisher?

  No, no, not at all. He once again can push up the middle. We'll see. But the trend is not for him at this point, at least in the US elections, that's for sure. And let's start with that. Let's start with the Senate. Republicans enter the midterms with 53 to 47 majority, and Democrats need a net gain of four seats. Cook Political Report shows seven races as toss-ups, estimating Democrats will pick up two to six seats. I want to focus on three of the closest races to get your take, and we've talked about them before. First off, Michigan, it's Dr. Abdul El Sayed versus Mike Rogers. Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said if Abdul can win in Michigan, anyone can win anywhere. She told the donors that a win would break open the entire political calculus of America.

• 17:16Kara Swisher?

  El Sayed has two sources of money, progressive small donors and the party establishment super PAC. I was in Michigan this weekend with my sons, it was Parents' Weekend, and my oldest son was there, came also, and Meghan, my ex-wife, came, and we went to a game at the big house. All the signs were for Abdul, and it said, you know, vote, vote blue, vote Abdul, you know? I mean, it was really interesting. I saw no Mike Rogers things. There was no anger. University is not as progressive as, it's very mixed, interestingly. There wasn't even that much back and forth between the Indiana fans and the Michigan fans. Indiana won, by the way. But it was interesting, because there was a lot of energy for him, and maybe this wasn't the right crowd, but you'd think it would be a good crowd for Mike Rogers, too.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  Oh, I don't think so, not on a university campus. I know that, you know, not just students go to the game, and you and Meghan were there. Obviously, there's others who attend. But I think that El Sayed should do very well in the university communities. He did in the primary.

• 18:20Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he's a Wolverine, too, yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 05

  Yep, and he is a Wolverine, and he proudly claims that. So. Look, I think that he is a very good candidate. He is a really smart, effective communicator. And he has pivoted on a few things, both during the primary and then especially after the primary, in order to reach a potentially broader electorate. It is still a very close race, depending upon what poll you look at, because much of Michigan has been traditionally Republican. Mike Rogers kind of looks and talks and acts like somebody that places in rural Michigan, western Michigan, Upper Peninsula, et cetera, feel comfortable with.

• 19:06Speaker 05

  So I think El-Sayed has the edge going into the election. And let's cross our fingers.

• 19:14Kara Swisher?

  I mean, do you ever look at some of the message and think, I could have done that? That was interesting.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  You look and you study and you try to learn from. It's a totally different time. I mean, 10 years seems like 10 lifetimes in the way politics has changed. He's an effective communicator on digital media. He's done all kinds of dances and messaging, which, as we were just talking about with Lula in Brazil, it matters. He has a big following among young voters. I think his main challenges are older voters, black voters, who are still somewhat holding off from what the polls seem to suggest, Jewish voters, and particularly older Jewish

• 20:00Speaker 05

  voters in particularly Detroit and the larger Detroit area. He has to pull together not only the Democratic coalition that wins races in Michigan, like Gretchen Whitmer and Jocelyn Benson, who's running for governor, who's way ahead of her opponent, do, but he's got to really reassure independent voters and others who are still questioning, can they vote for him? They might have one bone to pick. Is that enough to let the Senate not go in the right direction, namely, a Democratic majority? So we'll see.

• 20:38Kara Swisher?

  Rogers is interesting because he was on some of those shows and he's like, wouldn't say he was MAGA. It was interesting. He's sort of trying to go left in an interesting way.

• 20:46Speaker 05

  Well, go center anyway.

• 20:47Kara Swisher?

  Center, yeah.

• 20:48Speaker 05

  But he's also now, and his surrogates and a lot of the independent expenditure media is really fear mongering against El-Sayed as a Muslim, trying to link him to the Muslim Brotherhood.

• 21:02Kara Swisher?

  Trump is doing that, too.

• 21:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, Trump is doing that. And I'm just tired of that. And I hope people are tired of that. Judge somebody on who they are, what they stand for, what they produce. And as my husband said when he was campaigning for David Jolly down in Florida, he said, look, this is not about woke, this is about broke. I mean, that's a tough state to try to get a Democrat elected in. So we're fighting on all fronts against what are the tried and true tactics of the Republicans? If you can't win on affordability, if you are bankrupting the country and enriching yourself personally, try to divert attention. Don't look at what's actually happening.

• 21:44Speaker 05

  Look at this shiny object over here and try to get people to not vote their interests, but vote their fears.

• 21:51Kara Swisher?

  It's not shiny, it's Mohammed. There's a lot on social media people should pay attention. They have a young woman where she's like, well, he's not saying his middle name, which is Mohammed. And he's like, well, what's Mike Rogers' middle name? And she goes, that doesn't matter. And it was really interesting. And of course, this is a Trump, Trump is doing it right now. It's because Barack Hussein Obama, that kind of stuff. This is not, I was like, really? They're doing the Mohammed thing or the Hussein Obama thing?

• 22:18Speaker 05

  But Kara, it's worked for them in so many different cases. And so they're not going to give up on a strategy that's worked. It's whether or not people either have moved on or they're saying, wait a minute, you're not talking about what is important to me. You're still talking about stuff that was your campaign, two years, four years, eight years ago.

• 22:38Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't know Mike Rogers. I don't know your middle name. What is your middle name?

• 22:43Speaker 05

  My middle name is Diane.

• 22:45Kara Swisher?

  What? I didn't know that.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  Diane. Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton. Yeah, you got it.

• 22:50Kara Swisher?

  Oh, my God.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  What's your middle name? Do you have a middle name?

• 22:53Kara Swisher?

  Anne, it's why I was, Anne.

• 22:54Speaker 05

  I'm going to start calling you Kara Anne, whenever we talk about.

• 22:56Kara Swisher?

  Please don't. Please, no, thank you, no. Actually, my family's from West Virginia, so there, yes. I had a lot of southern-type voices in my life early. All right, let's go to Texas. Democrat James Talarico versus Ken Paxton, the world's worst candidate. He's the Republican. Emerson polling has a two in a dead heat, and Elon Musk is pouring money into support Paxton. He's losing his mind on social media. If Texas flips, that's because the Democrats built something new there? Or is it because Republicans nominated a bad candidate? We'll get into that in a second. But Elon has spent about $190 million just in Texas supporting Paxton. Talarico has broken records with grassroots, small donor fundraising. He's making a big deal about Elon, too.

• 23:39Kara Swisher?

  He's saying Texas is not for sale, not to this crazy billionaire, essentially. For comparison, Kamala outraised Trump and lost after Musk and the super PACs flooded the zone. You have talked about this. Is that a replay of 2024? Could a candidate beat that kind of outside money? And this money, this enormous amount of money from one of its citizens, Elon Musk, who was worried about Democrats running a state that he ran to for tax reasons and other reasons?

• 24:05Speaker 05

  Well, it's one of the many reasons we need to amend the Constitution and get rid of these horrible campaign finance rulings by the Roberts Supreme Court. And that's something I'm going to be pushing as hard as I can, because this kind of money is corrupting, distorting elections. And yet, we know they spend the money because they have a track record of seeing it make a difference. And so I wouldn't discount the potential of pulling victory from the jaws of defeat for Paxton, who is a truly flawed human being as well as a flawed candidate. In fact, some of the best arguments against him were made in the primary against him

• 24:47Speaker 05

  by Senator John Cornyn, who basically said, how can you nominate this guy on every possible basis? He is a criminal, he's an immoral guy, he does illegal things. I mean, the whole package of Paxton has certainly given.

• 25:04Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, he's an unctuous fella.

• 25:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's given Talarico a good position to run from. There's no doubt about that. However, Texas has a deep right-wing infrastructure.

• 25:16Kara Swisher?

  They do.

• 25:17Speaker 05

  And it's, I'm sure, as we are speaking, churning out so much miss and disinformation online, as well as on traditional media, to scare people into either voting for Paxton or having doubts about whether to vote for Talarico. I think Talarico is a generational talent. I've watched him, I know him, I feel very impressed by how he has handled himself. Again, it's a really close race.

• 25:50Kara Swisher?

  There's a bunch of Republicans backing him, quite a few, like, all over the place.

• 25:54Speaker 05

  I think for two reasons. I think they know Paxton, and they know how corrupt he is and how he literally is bought and paid for by whoever's dangling the money in front of him. The latest will be Musk. How can you ever rein in Elon Musk with all of his problems with his various companies and his behavior if you have bought and paid for Musk senators? Paxton will be representing the great state of Musk, not the great state of Texas if he's elected. And a lot of Republicans understand that.

• 26:25Kara Swisher?

  The great state of Musk. Oh, think about that. It would smell musky.

• 26:29Speaker 05

  I think the more Republicans who either whisper quietly they're voting for Talarico or they can't support Paxton, so they're just not going to vote in that race, whatever their messaging can be in this last week is really important. Texas, if you had the voting turnout from young people, black and brown people, who are eligible citizens, I will add, if you had that kind of turnout, Texas would already be trending blue. And is this the race to get people to go register and vote against the corrupt Texas establishment? I hope so, because there's so much more that Texas should be doing.

• 27:11Speaker 05

  I mean, they have made just a series of bad decisions on their way they treat natural disasters, how they deal with education and healthcare. So the existing Republican incumbents in Texas need to be turned out, and Texas needs new leadership, and Talarico would be terrific.

• 27:32Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, because they do. They're Musk servants, they're butlers for Musk, whether it's the governor, Greg Abbott, or the senators. They're all in the interest of Musk and not for the people. And I think Talarico's pushed on that button quite well, and he's done it on social media. His ads are very positive about Texas, and some of them are negative about Paxton because he's such a layup. But a lot of his in-person stuff is very much like.

• 27:57Speaker 05

  Have you met him, Kara?

• 27:58Kara Swisher?

  I have, I have, I have. I met him at South by Southwest this year. He's very appealing. He's a real unique talent. I call him Baby Jesus. I don't know if you know. I do. He didn't like it. He's like, you shouldn't call me that. And I said, do you want me to call you BJ? And he said, no. And so that was the.

• 28:16Speaker 05

  That's kind of blasphemous, Kara.

• 28:18Kara Swisher?

  I know, and then he never called me back. So that was the end of that. But good luck, James. I think he's a real unique talent. He's so articulate about.

• 28:26Speaker 05

  And very hopeful.

• 28:27Kara Swisher?

  Very much so. And he does push back. He's different than El-Sayed because, like you said, the DSA, they're not neither of them are DSA, but the more progressive side is very different from each other in a way that's really interesting.

• 28:40Speaker 05

  That's why you can't lump it all together. And I really hope voters understand that. We're electing individuals who have their own records, their own experience and backgrounds, and their own view on how to get to universal healthcare coverage, for example.

• 28:55Kara Swisher?

  Right, for example. Well, we're going to move on to Maine. I have to say, the woman who never goes away, she's like a barnacle, Susan Collins, Senator versus Democratic challenger Troy Jackson. President Trump just tried to boost Collins by granting tariff exemptions for some Canadian imports, and polling has her and Jackson in another dead heat. Both candidates are against tariffs. Would this help Collins? And tariffs can be lifted when the senator needs help, but other states still have to pay them. What does that tell voters? And again, what is Collins? I mean, she obviously delivers for the state, as you've said before, but. Are they ready for change in Maine? I mean, will Susan finally get dumped? Because she never does.

• 29:38Speaker 05

  I mean, she does have nine lives. There's no doubt about it. And you got to give her credit because she survives politically. But this may be the end of the road. You know, the idea that Trump would lift some tariffs with Canada. I mean, I always think about my late, great friend Maya Angelou. You know, when somebody shows you who they are, believe them and believe them the first time. Don't have to be convinced over and over again. Trump loves tariffs. And if anybody in Maine thinks that somehow Maine is going to be exempt from tariffs because, you know, Trump decided that was one way to help Susan Collins get reelected, they're just living in a dream world. And I do think that a lot of the tried and true support for Collins was because people

• 30:23Speaker 05

  saw her as a kind of independent voice for Maine. But she has not used that voice effectively. In one of her debates, Susan Collins said, well, you know, I voted against it, you know? But yeah, she voted against it when it was clear it was going to win anyway. I mean, she is always trying to position herself as standing up, being an independent vote on behalf of the people of Maine. But when it really comes to it, she more often than not, you know, votes with Trump. And I think people in Maine, they've seen the results of being for Trump. And hopefully, you know, they're going to say, wait, thank you so much, Susan. Here's your gold watch, but we want somebody else representing us in Washington.

• 31:07Kara Swisher?

  Right. So last one, Alaska. Alaska's senate race has two Republicans named Dan Sullivan. I know, it makes me laugh, too. One is the incumbent, the real Democrat, Mary Peltola, is a former Congresswoman and slightly ahead. Trump says he's ordered the Justice Department to sue so that if Alaska can't certify the result if Senator Sullivan loses narrowly because of the names. I don't know why that's a popular name in Alaska. I have no idea. What is he doing here? Most people don't think they'll prevail. But is he laying the groundwork to overturn the election he doesn't like? Will it work? How do you look at? I think she's going to win. I think she's going to win.

• 31:41Speaker 05

  Boy, I hope so. I think she is a great candidate. And, you know, when she was in the Congress, she suffered the terrible personal loss of her husband dying right in the middle of her term. She has proven herself to be, you know, a champion for Alaska. She's indigenous, native Alaskan.

• 32:00Kara Swisher?

  And she likes fish?

• 32:01Speaker 05

  She likes fish. And you know what? That's really important in Alaska.

• 32:05Kara Swisher?

  It is.

• 32:06Speaker 05

  So the state Supreme Court has already ruled that there's nothing wrong with a man whose real name is Dan Sullivan running if that's what he chooses to do. He's not disqualified just because somebody else has that name. This is another hail Mary desperate measure. I think the message that, you know, the Trump Justice Department was trying to send was don't waste your vote because I'm going to win. You know, it's like heads I win, tails you lose. Because if the wrong Dan Sullivan tips the balance against the right Dan Sullivan, I'm going to file to prevent the certification of Mary Peltola. And at the end of the day, I don't think this is a credible lawsuit.

• 32:50Speaker 05

  I think it was message lawsuit. And, you know, they throw that hail Mary, hoping they find a judge somewhere who agrees with them. But I think that it's a close race, but it seems to me to be trending in favor of Mary Peltola.

• 33:05Kara Swisher?

  Of her. She just got in a small car accident, by the way, which is too bad. We're going to move on to the House in a second. But of all these races, which one do you think the Republicans have the best shot at? And which one do the Democrats have the best shot at?

• 33:19Speaker 05

  They're all so close. You know, most of them are within the margin of error. And we were talking earlier about how much a difference, huge expenditures can make in distorting the information ecosystem, getting people to believe things that are totally untrue in order to convince them not to vote for their own interests and not to vote for the candidate they were thinking of because something showed up on their social media feed that causes them to doubt. You can't discount the huge amount of money. And Musk is putting in more than anybody, but he is not alone. There are Democrats who are putting in money, but they are dwarfed by the amount of money coming in from, you know, the Republicans. So we'll see. They're all within the margin of error.

• 34:03Kara Swisher?

  You know, Michael Bloomberg just put in 80 million for the Democrats, but still small compared to what Musk does on a given Tuesday. And I was actually with Reed Hastings. I did an interview with him. And I was like, I think you need to put in $80 million because he's been a Democratic donor. He did not take me up on my offer. All right. When we get back, we're going to take a quick break. We're going to talk about what's at stake in the House.

• 34:27Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. On high stakes, Hillary and I talk about the choices shaping our democracy. Here's a fundamental one. Who should hold power in America, the people or religion? Our founders created a constitution that bars religious tests for public office. And the First Amendment protects your freedom to believe or not believe. Yet we're seeing growing efforts to blur the line between religion and government from public schools to public policy. When government takes sides on religion, everyone's freedom is at risk. The Freedom From Religion Foundation works to keep state and church separate. FFRF also stands up for free thinkers, atheists, agnostics, and millions of nonreligious Americans whose voices deserve to be heard.

• 35:10Kara Swisher?

  Visit ffrf.us/kara or text Kara, K-A-R-A, to 511511 to learn more or to join. Because promoting democracy means protecting freedom for everyone. Text Kara to 511511 or go to ffrf.us/kara. Text fees may apply.

• 35:36Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Mutual Care Now. You may have heard of the book Bullies, Parasites, and Slaves by George Byron Koch, which is about how the working poor and even the middle class are exploited to subsidize the bullies and the parasites up at the top. Now George's son, George August Koch, has written his own first book, Mutual Care Now, in which he offers a solution to lead us out of the exploitation into shared prosperity. A quick read and a life-changing insight that can transform our future and heal us all. Go to mutualcarenow.com to get your copies of both books, Bullies, Parasites, and Slaves, or Mutual Care Now, and text my last name, Swisher, S-W-I-S-H-E-R, to 511511 to receive

• 36:20Kara Swisher?

  immediate links to get the books, paperback, ebooks, or audio. Going to mutualcarenow.com will inspire you and give you hope in these trying times. Text Swisher to 511511 and then give them to someone who really needs it. Go to mutualcarenow.com or text my last name, Swisher, to 511511 and get these books, which can change your life, and then we can change our world together. Text fees may apply.

• 36:48Kara Swisher?

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• 37:35Kara Swisher?

  Madam Secretary, we're back and we're turning our focus to the House, where the Democrats have a much easier ride. The party has 214 seats and just needs four more. What's interesting is that the battleground has moved into districts Republicans thought were safe. Cook Political Report says the competitive map is growing and now includes red districts that were once locks for the GOP. So on election night, what number tells you whether it was a normal midterm or a rejection? Is it a red riptide or blue wave? And if Democrats flip seats, Trump won by double digits? That's because voters like Democrats? Probably not. Or because they're angry about tariffs and prices? And the last question, if Republicans lose the House, the members who survive in swing districts have a choice, stick with Trump or start distancing themselves? And which way would they go?

• 38:19Kara Swisher?

  Let's start with those.

• 38:22Speaker 05

  Well, first of all, I am hoping for a really big margin because it's not enough, in my opinion, just to squeak by and win three, four, or five more seats. I want to see 10, 15, 20, 25 seats. And in recent days, some of the analysts have moved more seats into, you know, the lean Democrat column where they had not been before. And I know that the Democrats have expanded their funding into seats that they thought were out of reach before.

• 38:55Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 38:56Speaker 05

  And the other ironic development is it looks like a lot of the gerrymandered seats, particularly in Texas, that Trump ordered the Republicans to redistrict to try to favor him, may not turn out for the Republicans. And so this is again, a very volatile situation. I feel really good about us winning the House, but I want to see as big a margin as possible because, you know, Kara, look, it's not just about winning, as important as that is. That's a predicate to everything. If you don't win, you can't govern, you can't make change. But we have to have an agenda. And I know that the Democratic leadership, starting with Hakeem Jeffries, is really working hard so that literally on day one, they can start introducing legislation to deal with affordability,

• 39:41Speaker 05

  to take on corruption, to really send a message that-

• 39:44Kara Swisher?

  Right. Yeah, they've got to look action.

• 39:45Speaker 05

  They've got to have action. And they've got to have action that they pass through a democratically controlled House. Now, people say, well, what good will that do? Because Trump may veto. On the one hand, it gives you a strong foundation to say, this is what Democrats promised, and we delivered. And you got to get rid of the Republicans in the White House and/or the Senate in order to get things done, right?

• 40:07Kara Swisher?

  Make him, make him do it, essentially.

• 40:09Speaker 05

  Make him do it. And knowing Trump, there may be some he signs if we can get, you know, some of this through the House and the Senate, hopefully.

• 40:17Kara Swisher?

  Let me ask you, if they flip seats by double digits, is it because they like Democrats or just mad? I think probably, Scott calls it, as I said, a red riptide versus a Democratic wave. And then how do Democrats get to the situation where people do like them, right? That they're voting for Democrats, not against Trump?

• 40:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, they have to produce. I think a lot of the energy in this election is people who have turned against Trump and Republicans because promises were made and promises were not kept. And there have been so many distractions. And in fact, it's the strangest strategy, but Trump has repeatedly mocked those so-called affordability concerns of Americans. I mean, not just, you know, saying the Democrats won't help you, you know, that would be one way of approaching it. He's basically, well, we're doing great. People are making more money than ever. Look how good it's going. And, you know, that's just contrary to the reality of people's lives.

• 41:16Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's what they accuse Biden of, you know, it's what they accuse Biden of.

• 41:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's a kind of echo of what happened in the Biden administration. But I also think there are some Democratic candidates who are really gaining ground with voters. People are saying, hey, I like the way you talk. I like your toughness. I like what you're, you know, saying you're going to do. It still is primarily against Trump and the Republicans. But the Democrats have a real chance if they actually get to governing and passing legislation that could help people to say, you know, we told you we'd do this, and we are doing everything we can to make your lives better.

• 41:52Kara Swisher?

  We're doing it. Promises made, promises delivered, right? And then if, because he's in the way. Now, if they do lose, and he's not busy writing 1,300-word pieces on Bill Maher when he finds the time, does he accept it as a verdict on his presidency? Or does this go back to the Alaska question, is he called the election rigged? What is your feeling that he'll do? He seems like such a creature that he will just go with whatever the thing is versus pushback. Or maybe he doesn't care. Maybe he doesn't care anymore.

• 42:22Speaker 05

  Look, I think, I mean, you hear in his speeches on the campaign trail what he's going to do. He's going to say, I wasn't on the ballot. If I'd been on the ballot, the turnout and the results would have been different. So it's not a judgment about me and my presidency. It's a judgment about these Republicans who didn't show enough loyalty to me and didn't run the right campaigns and all of that. So I don't think this man is capable of accepting any kind of criticism whatsoever. And he lives in his own fantasy world that is an echo chamber of compliments to him. So I don't think he takes any responsibility. Now, the more interesting question is the

• 43:03Speaker 05

  one you asked earlier. What do other Republicans do? What do Republicans in the Congress do? Especially if they're from so-called swing districts and they survived this midterm. What do they do? Do they begin to cooperate with Democrats to try to pass legislation that deals with big problems? Does Trump let them because, you know, he feels like, you know, he can take credit for anything that is done? I don't know. We're going to wait and see. But some of these Republicans, honest to goodness, have been so oblivious and willing to follow Trump right off the cliff. I don't know if they can, you know, clamber their way back up.

• 43:43Kara Swisher?

  Mike Johnson is the Olympic version of this. I'm, you know what I really am? I have to say, I'm super excited to see him on Dancing with Stars going forward against Pete Hegseth. That's going to be a great season.

• 43:53Speaker 05

  That would be a terrific, I'd even watch it.

• 43:55Kara Swisher?

  I'd watch it. I'd watch it. Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 05

  Although the latest little rumor is that Hegseth is trying to lobby Marsha Blackburn, when she gets elected governor, which appears like it's going to happen, in Tennessee, to appoint him to her Senate seat. So he would leave the Defense Department.

• 44:16Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, before they kick him out, before they kick him out.

• 44:18Speaker 05

  Before he gets impeached and gets kicked out, exactly.

• 44:21Kara Swisher?

  Right. So what do you think? Will she do that? She's not doing that for him. Why?

• 44:24Speaker 05

  I don't know why she would do that.

• 44:25Kara Swisher?

  Why would she? She's a, she's a, speaking of political creatures.

• 44:28Speaker 05

  But, you know, you never know in Trump world. You have no idea.

• 44:31Kara Swisher?

  No, she won't do it. Once she got the seat, she knows Trump is out? No.

• 44:35Speaker 05

  Let's see. We'll see. But some of those hardcore Republicans, you know, love all of his, you know, shenanigans. So maybe they do go along with it. I don't know.

• 44:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't, for some reason, I get a vibe of like, it's mine now from her. That's what I get.

• 44:49Speaker 05

  I don't need you anymore.

• 44:51Kara Swisher?

  I don't need, I don't need you anymore. And I shall now disdain you.

• 44:54Speaker 05

  That would be a great country song. I don't need you anymore.

• 44:58Kara Swisher?

  I don't need you anymore.

• 44:59Speaker 05

  I followed you into the fire.

• 45:00Kara Swisher?

  Not sung by Marsha Blackburn. Anyway, we'll see. Matter of fact, let's take a quick break, and we'll get back. We're going to talk about governor's race. People are not talking enough about the governor's races. And I think they're critically important.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.

• 45:41Speaker 06

  They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 45:49Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 45:52Speaker 06

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  And dairy? I never imagined my life journey would be milk. Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 46:13Kara Swisher?

  Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at Odoo.com/vox. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash vox.

• 46:49Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kara Swisher.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  And I'm Sky Galloway.

• 46:52Kara Swisher?

  Twice a week, we get together on Pivot to sort through the biggest stories in tech, business, and politics. And we're taking the show back on the road for a live tour in November.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  So we'll bring hot takes, I'll bring the insight, and the dick jokes, and Kara will try. Keyword is try to keep me in check. You'll get to see her. Hit me in person, live.

• 47:13Kara Swisher?

  I'll do it. If someone has to do it.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  We'll cover AI, whatever chaos Washington's cooked up that week and every billionaire misbehaving.

• 47:21Kara Swisher?

  That's all of them. And you'll also get to participate in an audience Q and A. So bring your best questions. Scott will probably answer ones you didn't ask. We also have secret special guests, which you'll enjoy for every city. Get tickets at pivottour.com. That's pivottour.com.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  We are selling out, so don't wait. And we look forward to seeing you.

• 47:45Kara Swisher?

  Minister Secretary, we're back. Thirty-six governorships are on the ballot, including six of the seven presidential battlegrounds. Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. The only one not on the ballot is North Carolina, which has elected its governor in 2024. They have nothing to do with control of Congress, but let's explain, and then we'll go through the three most contentious races. Explain why they're important, please, for us.

• 48:10Speaker 05

  Well, first of all, Kara, they do have quite a bit to do with the control of Congress every 10 years. When we do a census and then the states actually redistrict, draw congressional maps based on that census. So who the governor is, is a big deal for what happens in the elections going forward after the census, you know, redistricting is completed. That's why Trump called, you know, Governor Abbott in Texas and said, find me more seats, because that's where the governor's influence and power over Congress really comes from, how they decide where the lines are drawn. But they also are really important because the states still have to be the laboratories of democracy. You know, the work that I'm doing

• 48:54Speaker 05

  at the Clinton Policy Institute is all about working with states. The national government won't do anything to regulate social media now, to regulate AI, to keep kids safe. So states have been taking the lead, states like New York and Illinois and California, but others as well, when they, you know, get phones out of schools. And it's a kind of red, blue issue. So governors really matter. And I think looking at these governors' races and encouraging people to not just be focused on the congressional midterms, but also the elections at the state level.

• 49:27Kara Swisher?

  And especially conducting elections for 2028, that's critical.

• 49:30Speaker 05

  That's right. They're going to have to stand up against all the crazy things that Trump is trying to do, you know, from Alaska to wherever in the aftermath of this midterm election.

• 49:40Kara Swisher?

  Right. So let's go through three of the most contentious races. In Georgia, we have former Atlanta mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms versus billionaire Republican Rick Jackson. If Bottoms wins, she'll be the first Democrat elected governor of Georgia since 1998. Credible. And possibly the first black woman elected to governor anywhere, which is repulsive, as far as I'm concerned. John Ossoff has comfortably had in the Senate race, but Bottoms is tied in the same ballot. What is Bottoms not giving those voters that Ossoff is, besides his hot Atlanta act, whatever it happens to be? And in 2020, Georgia's Republican governor and Secretary of State refused Trump's pressure to overturn the results. So how confident are you that Jackson would do the same if he wins?

• 50:24Speaker 05

  That's a great set of questions. You know, I really like Keisha. I've known her a long time. I did a fundraiser for her in New York to support her campaign. I think she's a really positive, solid candidate. But she's running for an executive position as a black woman in a state that hasn't elected a Democrat, let alone a woman, to be governor. And so for a long time, the odds are kind of stacked against her. But, boy, she is in the hunt. She is within the margin of error in the polls that I've seen. The Ossoff campaign is doing everything it can to kind of create an atmosphere of, you know, vote for both of us, change, change the government, you know, at the state level, as well as send

• 51:08Speaker 05

  me back to the Senate. So I've got my fingers and toes and everything else crossed for her, because I think she would be terrific for Georgia. And when you ask about the pressure on states to overturn elections, to literally come up with votes, as we all remember Trump calling the governor and the Secretary of State after the 2020 election.

• 51:28Kara Swisher?

  That's Brad Raffensperger.

• 51:30Speaker 05

  And Brian Kemp. And they, and they stood up against that pressure.

• 51:33Kara Swisher?

  They did.

• 51:34Speaker 05

  I am not confident that Jackson would do the same. You know, he seems kind of a creation of Trump. And he certainly has not distanced himself from Trump. So I think that Georgia has a lot at stake in not only who governs, you know, the state going forward, but, you know, in making sure they have a governor that is going to reflect the will of the state, not, not Donald Trump.

• 52:00Kara Swisher?

  Right. What is the key thing there in that state, in that particular state? You've been there. You've done a lot of campaigning.

• 52:06Speaker 05

  I think, again, it's turn out the vote. I mean, if we can get young people and, and black voters out to vote, if Keisha can really turn out voters who want to see change and who believe that she can govern the state effectively and bring about that change, I think she's got a real fighting chance. I think, you know, it still is a challenge because voters are, I think, maybe believing, well, I can vote for Ossoff, but I traditionally vote Republican, so maybe then I better stick with the Republican in the governor's race. Voters go through a lot of different thought processes.

• 52:42Kara Swisher?

  Splitting the ticket.

• 52:43Speaker 05

  I'm just hoping voters say, look, Georgia can be so much more than it is. It can have a much better future for everybody who lives there if you elect both Keisha and John.

• 52:53Kara Swisher?

  Right, together. All right, moving on to Ohio. Oh, what a race that is.

• 52:57Speaker 05

  Boy, what a rotten, terrible candidate Ramaswamy has turned out to be.

• 53:03Kara Swisher?

  This is Democrat Amy Acton and Republican Vivek Ramaswamy. The news here is all about his attack ad with the mother, the horrible mother of Amy Acton. His campaign spent $4 million, the ad where Amy Acton's estranged mother, estranged for 40 years, by the way, attacked her own daughter. Obviously, there's a huge backstory here that, that the mother backed the person who was indicted for raping her at 12 years old. So this is a terrible story. The current Republican governor, Mike DeWine, said it's wrong to run the ad, while Vice President JD Vance has stood by Ramaswamy despite the backlash. Ramaswamy has Trump's backing in the state. Trump carries every time, and he's still a tight race. The problem,

• 53:47Kara Swisher?

  is it Vivek or Trump's endorsement is worse, less than it used to be? Most people don't think he's going to win. They think this ad did him in. But you never know. Why is he doing it if he doesn't think it's going to work? That's my feeling. Like, why keep doubling down on stupid?

• 54:01Speaker 05

  You know, I think you've assessed it exactly right. It was a tight race going into the ad that is so vile, untrue, and in, in my view, a reflection of where the, you know, the Trump cult is when it comes to any kind of ethical, moral standard. The fact that, you know, JD Vance jumped in. JD Vance, who knows what it is to have an abusive, neglectful mother. As I recall, he basically had to be taken away from his own mother and raised by his grandmother because of her drug abuse and her behavior when he was

• 54:39Speaker 05

  a child. And for him to double down on this horrible ad that Ramaswamy, you know, somehow believed would help him, you know, just shows how morally bankrupt they all are. And I want them beaten because they're not good people. They shouldn't be in charge of anybody's family's future.

• 54:59Kara Swisher?

  So why are they doing it?

• 55:00Speaker 05

  Why are they doing it? Because they have learned all of the lessons of how to win in the Trump era. Lie until you cannot lie any longer. Just keep lying. Gaslight everybody. You know, create a false image of your opponents. Use virtual images and disinformation to, you know, try to convince enough people that how bad, no matter how bad you are, your opponent is even worse on something that is as fundamental as, you know, your family relationships. And the kind of claims that Ramaswamy made with his

• 55:39Speaker 05

  ad with, with Amy's mother, who not only stood by while her husband, Amy's stepfather, abused, sexually abused Amy, but she herself has been convicted of wrongdoing. You know, but they all, they all know better. But they have such a low opinion of the American, you know, voter that they think they can lie and get it believed.

• 56:01Kara Swisher?

  They must think it works. They must think this. Can I ask you a person? What is the worst ad against you that got you? That she, I thought Amy Acton is handling this very terrible thing very well, with a lot of dignity.

• 56:13Speaker 05

  You know, I also know her. I have supported her, done a fundraiser for her. She's a solid person. I just wish Mike DeWine not only condemned the ad, because Mike DeWine knows her. He put her in charge of the state's COVID response. But I wish Mike DeWine would go a step further. He's done with politics. He served in the Senate. He served as governor. He has nothing to lose.

• 56:35Kara Swisher?

  He should say something.

• 56:36Speaker 05

  I served with him. I served with him in the Senate. And come on, Mike. Say you're not going to vote for Ramaswamy. Not just condemn the ad, but say you're not going to vote for him. That's what I wish Mike DeWine would do, and other Republicans as well.

• 56:50Kara Swisher?

  Mike?

• 56:51Speaker 05

  Come on, Mike. Please.

• 56:53Kara Swisher?

  What, is there an ad that stuck with you that was a good? Against you that you were like, I cannot believe they just did that.

• 56:58Speaker 05

  You know, most of the really effective ads and memes and claims and conspiracies about me happened online.

• 57:06Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 05

  Because what

• 57:07Kara Swisher?

  You remember, you were a lizard.

• 57:08Speaker 05

  Honest to goodness, you know, Facebook was the worst offender against me and everything they did and Pizza Gate, which, you know, was, you know, just a huge lie that took off. And, you know, I, I, I can't really catalog them all because there were so many of them. And, you know, that was like 10 years ago, and we were frankly, ill-prepared, unaware of how effective it could be.

• 57:32Kara Swisher?

  I'm asking if there's one that got you, like, oh, my God.

• 57:35Speaker 05

  Look, I think Pizza Gate was really effective when people, you know, when these ads against me, these really terrible, horrible, false claims about me were running all over the internet, some with Russian money, for heaven's sakes. The people who were campaigning for me, they were on the phones, they were knocking on doors, they would have voters say, you know what, I can't vote for her because she kills people, or she traffics children, or whatever they were told and that they believed. And when my supporters would say, where did you hear that? It's not true. They'd say, oh, I saw it on the internet.

• 58:14Speaker 05

  And the naivete and the susceptibility of people seeing a video or seeing something in print that looked legitimate was so powerful. And that's why you can't count out all of the money that is being spent against our candidates to lie about them again.

• 58:32Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, they, that Pizza Gate thing did resonate. It really did. I've had lots of people, the lizard one was driving me crazy just because I was like, she's not a lizard. I'm pretty sure she's not a lizard.

• 58:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'll show you my scales next time I see you in person.

• 58:44Kara Swisher?

  I know, it was crazy. Anyway, last one, Texas.

• 58:47Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 58:47Kara Swisher?

  Republican Governor Greg Abbott is seeking a fourth term against Democrat State Rep Gina Inahosa of Austin. Recent polls have them within a few points of each other. Texas hasn't elected a Democratic governor since Ann Richards in 1990. She was a legend, by the way. If Inahosa and Talarico both win, is Texas really changing or voters just sending Trump a message? And again, Elon Musk is backing the state of Musk, moved to Tesla, SpaceX, and X to Texas and spending millions to keep the state red. If she wins, what happens to all his investments? Not good, not good.

• 59:23Speaker 05

  Well, again, I think Gina is running a really strong campaign, and she has state legislative experience, just like James Talarico does. And she knows what is possible for Texas to do and how, you know, leaders like Governor Abbott and, you know, Paxton are always catering to their billionaire supporters, to their most extreme right-wing followers. And so I think that it's not only a vote against Trump, I think it's a vote against the mismanagement of the governance of Texas. You know, you look at Texas and you think, my gosh, it's such a rich state, but it has some of the highest poverty rates.

• 1:00:06Speaker 05

  It has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the country because, you know, Texas hasn't taken care of the needs of the people of Texas. And it has a huge voucher system that is slowly eroding school districts all over the state, especially rural school districts that are the pride of their communities. It has a data center debate where it looked like Abbott would approve any data center there was. And when the reaction from traditionally Republican areas started coming in, he goes, oh, no, no, we'll put a moratorium, we'll wait. I think the voters of Texas, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, are saying, wow, we could do so much better than these guys.

• 1:00:49Speaker 05

  And, you know, again, it's within the margin of error, but who thought she'd get this close? And I think she could get over the line if people

• 1:00:56Kara Swisher?

  They may be tired of him, too, right?

• 1:00:58Speaker 05

  I think they are tired. He's been around a really long time and he's, you know, he's, he's very didactic and dogmatic and, and, you know, very self-righteous. And I think people are like, wait a minute, what have you done for me? What have you done that actually improved my life and my prospects? And so I'm hoping that she can, you know, she can pull it off.

• 1:01:18Kara Swisher?

  This could be the, the big shocker, I think. That would be a big shocker. And what an interesting candidate to run Texas, right? Like, so young, so fresh versus, like, sad old Greg. Yeah, sad. And the energy stuff is an, I've heard a lot of people in Texas, including conservatives, be angry about the energy issues there in terms of the weather.

• 1:01:37Speaker 05

  Also, there, there, you know, there are a lot of people in Texas who were very much in favor of Trump's crackdown on immigration.

• 1:01:43Kara Swisher?

  Now it's done.

• 1:01:44Speaker 05

  You know, that's one of the issues that has really motivated voters. But now they've seen the results of, it's not just enforcing the law. I was looking at the numbers of deportations under various presidents. And if you compare my husband and Barack Obama to Trump, both Bill and Barack deported more people, but they didn't delight in the cruelty, they didn't delight in breaking up families, they didn't delight in having masked men pulling guns on citizens and even shooting citizens. And so I think voters are like, okay, yeah, we wanted to crack down on illegal immigration. Okay, thank you very much, but did you have to go this far? And don't we need a more reasonable way of protecting our borders than what you all are doing?

• 1:02:29Speaker 05

  So I think there's a lot of issues that voters from, you know, South Texas to North Texas are looking at.

• 1:02:36Kara Swisher?

  And when you think about that state, it would be, Ann Richards was legendary. It'd be astonishing to have another woman. We'll see, we'll see. All right, Madam Secretary, one more quick break. We'll be back to talk about your own personal experience. I want to ask you some questions.

• 1:02:53Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:03:29Speaker 03

  Hi, it's Phoebe Judge, host of Criminal. I'm going on tour. If you like hearing me tell stories about people, well, I've decided to tell stories about my life and the people I love.

• 1:03:41Kara Swisher?

  A letter was left carelessly around, so I was sort of caught red-handed.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  It's a show about secrets and forgiveness. I hope you'll come to see it. Find all our tour dates and get tickets at thisiscriminal.com/live.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  How will Israel's upcoming elections shape its relationship with the United States?

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  The most probable scenario is not going to be a clear winner, and therefore, there will be another election, and Trump's Middle East agenda is going to be pretty much hijacked by the political crisis in Israel.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  I'm John Finer. And I'm Jake Sullivan. We're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, we speak with Barak Ravid, global affairs correspondent for Axios. He explains the stakes of the elections for Israel and the world.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  The episode is out now. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:04:43Kara Swisher?

  Madam Secretary, we're back. You've lived the last week of a campaign more times than anyone, and you've had an election night go wrong way. What's going through a candidate's head right now with a weak election? Because I know a lot of voters are like, Kamala was ahead at this time, Hillary was ahead at this time. You know what I mean? There's a lot of that going on with people. So don't believe the polls, this and that. So what is going on, what was going on in your head besides fuck James Comey? But what, what was going on?

• 1:05:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it is such an intense, intense, stressful time because you also know, while you're making your closing argument and you're racing around either your state or your district or your country, people are voting. Millions and millions of people have already voted in this election. They've already made up their minds. So you're trying to, you know, motivate people to turn out, and you know they're already making their judgment. So it's, it's something that you're not sure exactly how you're doing because you can go into, you know, a state or a district and you can see that 30% of the electorate has already cast a vote, early voting, request for mail, you know, ballots or absentee ballots.

• 1:05:52Speaker 05

  So you've got to be constantly trying to figure, where are the voters that I can persuade? Who can I get to the polls that would otherwise stay home? And the messaging that you're doing is just one of the countless messages that voters are receiving. They're receiving messages you're aware of because they're kind of above the, you know, the waterline and you know what they're saying about you. But then there's all this other dark money and there's the organizing, you don't know what's happening. And there's the Facebook groups and the affinity groups and everything that is happening below the surface. So you're, you really are operating with less than full information and you're trying to get as best a position as you can to, you know, get your own voters to turn out, but persuade those who are still persuadable.

• 1:06:38Kara Swisher?

  So when you were in that moment, now, the decision desk right now gives Democrats an only 80% chance of retaking the House, polymarketing, and even higher, and a 56% chance of getting the Senate. The Democrats have been misled before. And again, you know how that feels. Take a moment, what was that like? Because you thought you were going to win, I suspect, right?

• 1:06:56Speaker 05

  I certainly did, yeah. And, you know, the polling said I was going to win. Our internal polling said the same, you know, the night before the election, we had a huge rally in Philadelphia and President Obama gave me a big hug and said, you've got this. Because he was doing his own polling and his own what are called analytics, you know, that are trying to analyze every piece of information you can get. But also, people have been voting for 10 days since Jim Comey, you know, threw that gigantic monkey wrench into the election. And that meant that a lot of people were rethinking their support for me, and we know that. I wrote all about it in my book called What Happened. And I still think that book will teach you a lot about how difficult it is to really know what's happening, particularly with online activity.

• 1:07:41Speaker 05

  But, you know, the Comey action was right out there in plain sight, and it had a Terrible effect on voters and we catalog that in the book.

• 1:07:52Kara Swisher?

  Right. But what do you think when you're reading the polls now? Do you go to you do the same? Do you have the same like knee jerk reaction? I'm not going to believe this.

• 1:07:59Speaker 05

  Well, I, I look at them and we know that polling is much more difficult to do now than it used to be.

• 1:08:05Kara Swisher?

  And that's what Mike Johnson's claiming. They're not answering polls, the Republicans.

• 1:08:09Speaker 05

  Well, there's some truths to that, but you know, we do have a lot of information. We have information about in states where voters register by party who's actually voting early, who's requesting, you know, mail ballots. We have a lot of information. So I do think it's fair to say, as Decision Desk says, that the chances of the Democrats taking the House are really high. The chances of Democrats taking the Senate are not as high. They're just over 50%. So what it does it come down to? It comes down to what it always comes down to. People have to get out and vote. And you know, anytime I hear somebody say, it doesn't really matter. Well, for heaven's sakes, you know, it really does matter. They're trying to take away your health care and provide no alternative.

• 1:08:51Speaker 05

  They have tariffed everything that they can possibly tariff, raising costs at your kitchen table, at your gas pump. They've launched a reckless unsuccessful war with Iran that has also increased costs. I mean, for heaven's sakes, it really matters. So you have to send a message about the kind of leadership that you want. And if you want to continue with the Trump chaos and cruelty and corruption, fine, don't vote. And so I just want people to realize this is not just an ordinary election and oh my gosh, you're too busy to turn up and vote, you know? You gotta get out there and vote. And a lot of states still have, you know, early voting.

• 1:09:31Kara Swisher?

  What are you most worried about and what is the positive side?

• 1:09:34Speaker 05

  Oh, I'm most worried about the flood of money from the Elon Musks and the Trump supporters distorting the election, confusing voters, convincing them either not to show up and vote because it doesn't matter, or show up and vote for Republicans. I think that's our biggest challenge right now. But on the positive side, I think people are voting their reality. And the lies and the distortion and the gaslighting just may not work because it's when you, you know, pull up to fill up your tank or your tractor, for heaven's sakes, the reality contradicts Donald Trump and his cult members. And I think that is the most positive trend right now is that Trump and the Republicans are trying to, you know, tell you, don't believe your own eyes.

• 1:10:18Kara Swisher?

  But lying eyes, don't believe your lying eyes.

• 1:10:20Speaker 05

  I think people are smarter than that.

• 1:10:21Kara Swisher?

  If you had to pick one result, and next week we'll know, we'll be talking when we know, what's the one result next week that would tell you Democrats are in trouble for 2028?

• 1:10:30Speaker 05

  Oh, you know, look, I think Kara, that if, if we don't win the House, that would be a disaster. If we don't win the Senate, that would be a huge disappointment. And I think that would tell us that even reality is no match for, you know, Trump's fantasy world. And we got to figure out how to break through that. I don't think that's going to happen. I'm right now quite optimistic. If people turn out and vote, that we're going to have a big win in the House and we are going to take back the Senate. I really believe that. But if people get confused or discouraged or just told things that aren't true, that convince them not to show up and vote, then that's a problem. But it's not just a problem for Democrats. It's a problem for them and it's a problem for the country.

• 1:11:14Kara Swisher?

  What is something you wish someone had told you before November 8th, 2016? A day that shall live in infamy.

• 1:11:21Speaker 05

  I wish somebody had told me that I needed to take on Jim Comey. I needed to really challenge his breach of precedent, his breaking the Justice Department's, you know, norms of not interfering in elections, his, you know, deliberate reckless effort to curry favor with the Republicans. I wish I had taken it on in a very forthright, frontal way. And I didn't, and I didn't because, you know, for a lot of reasons, you know, did I want to pick a fight with the Director of the FBI? Well, in retrospect, yeah, I did. So yeah, I wish I had been really in his face.

• 1:12:01Kara Swisher?

  You gotta push back. And by the way, let's be clear, not with a sword, like me.

• 1:12:05Speaker 05

  Not with a, no, no, I'm, I'm giving you the sword. I'm not wielding the sword.

• 1:12:09Kara Swisher?

  No, but you're right. You should have pushed back. It's hard because you sort of want to do the right thing and.

• 1:12:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've been the do right person for way too long when it comes to, you know, not fighting back because the old assumptions are gone. And you've got to be much more in the mix and aware of, you know, what the real dangers are and speak up and fight back. As my, my friend Maria Ressa's book, The Fight Back, you know, you gotta fight back against authoritarians, whether they're in government or the tech industry, if you're, if you're going to save democracy and create a better future.

• 1:12:42Kara Swisher?

  That's why you're hanging out with me because you know, in the prison yard, we will rule with me at your side.

• 1:12:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, you're going to be my enforcer, if you don't mind.

• 1:12:50Kara Swisher?

  Are you kidding? Absolutely. Are you crazy? I will make things happen. Don't you worry, I'll shut things down. We can hang out with Elizabeth Holmes. All right, last thing. If Trump loses, and loses big, the Senate, the House, everyone kicks him in the teeth, essentially, what happens? What is his first thing?

• 1:13:09Speaker 05

  First is he deflects blame from himself, everybody else's fault, that, you know, they lost the House and the Senate. That's the first thing. But the second thing, and this is what I think people need to be prepared for, is he becomes even more unhinged and sadly more dangerous. Because as I have mentioned before, there's a concept in behavioral psychology where people who are in what's called the domain of loss, they double down on risk. And I think that he's going to most likely launch more attacks on Iran, which I think put more American lives, not just military, but civilian lives at risk, and not just in the Middle East, but in other places as well.

• 1:13:49Speaker 05

  I think he is going to demand even greater loyalty from the Republicans to stick with him. And so, yeah, I think we need Democrats and Americans, primarily Americans, to say, look, we, we passed judgment on you and your administration and you were not successful because we don't want to continue what you're doing. And a Democratic Congress has to pass legislation to try to rein him in. We have to bring more lawsuits to try to rein him in. We have to try to shame him, you know? It did work in ending this terrible idea of, you know, streaming and execution. There was such outrage across the country that they did back off. So yeah, here's my prediction, Kara.

• 1:14:33Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 1:14:34Speaker 05

  You heard it here first. Trump is going to start coming apart at the seams. We actually did talk about this at the dinner where we cooked up this podcast. He's underwater on the issues that brought him to power, immigration, foreign policy, the economy. He's a lame duck. He may not know that, but he is a lame duck. And he's soon going to have a Democratic Congress trying to rein him in, hold him accountable and investigate. Kim, his administration, his family, his, you know, supporters and allies. He literally has held Republicans hostage for a decade and that only works for so long. One day, the hostages look around and say, there are more of us than there is of him. We need to take him on. And I think we can see that happen. So buckle up. The election is just the beginning.

• 1:15:19Speaker 05

  We have to win the election to rein him in and hold him accountable. And then we have to show we can govern and make smart decisions that are going to actually help the American people on affordability and also against corruption. Those are the two big issues.

• 1:15:33Kara Swisher?

  Buckle up. Thank you, Betty Davis, on that one. Margot, it's going to be a bumpy night. It's going to be a bumpy night, but we're going to be here to help sort it out next week, what's going to happen, aren't we? We will, we will let you know. Again, Hillary, this has been a pleasure. You know, I was saying to someone, what's really nice about this, it's obviously you're a Democrat. Hello, you ran for the Democratic presidential as a candidate, but it's like a civics lesson.

• 1:15:55Speaker 05

  It's critical if we're going to, if we're going to preserve our democracy, we better figure out how to make it work.

• 1:16:00Kara Swisher?

  Exactly, among all of us. Anyway, happy birthday. It's still your birthday here in the United States of America and I hope you have the best rest of your birthday and many more to come. Thank you for listening. We'll be back on a different day next week. Join us Friday to process all the electoral results. Hillary's going to be here. I know she's going to have the data. The woman carries a briefcase. She will have all the information and she will sort out every single vote for you. I will just make jokes along the way about swords and other things. Today's show was produced by Lara Naaman and Madeline LaPlante Dubey. Our tape editors are Moes Bergman and Brandon McFarlane. Rosemarie Ho provided the fact checking. Bob Guile and Dennis Chang helped us out in Tokyo.

• 1:16:45Kara Swisher?

  Thank you so much for that. Nick Merrill was in charge of manifesting positive vibes, as usual, useless. Thanks also to Art Chung, Abby Krynsky, Renee Betterson and Anna Casey. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to High Stakes from Vox Media. We'll be back next week.

• 1:17:10Speaker 05

  Go vote, everybody. Go vote.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

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• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building 8Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.

• 1:18:31Speaker 06

  They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 1:18:41Speaker 06

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  And dairy? I never imagined my life journey would be milk. Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.