Pod Insights How To Fail With Elizabeth Day Sophie Habboo - I Wish I Had More Boundaries About this episode This week we are joined by podcasting royalty, Sophie Habboo!
Habboo found fame on Made In Chelsea, E4’s structured-reality show following the lives of affluent 20-something Londoners where she met fellow cast-mate Jamie Laing in 2017. The two began dating - and then launched a media empire. Their podcast, NearlyWeds was an instant hit and was rebranded as NewlyWeds when they got married in 2023.
Habboo now runs the hugely successful JamPot podcast production company with her husband and the two served as executive producers on Raising Chelsea, a new three-part Disney+ documentary following the couple as they face the messy, scary and comic reality of becoming parents for the first time.
In this episode Sophie talks openly about her feelings of overwhelm and anxiety in the run up to their wedding, her ADHD diagnosis, the challenges of being a new mum and the importance of setting boundaries.
✨ IN THIS EPISODE:
03:50 Family Roots And Motherhood
06:39 Ziggy Bay And Marathon Madness
08:35 Failure One: No Boundaries
10:23 One Day Office Job Disaster
16:01 Wedding Overwhelm And ADHD
20:52 Insecurities and Social Situations
21:53 Anxiety and Imposter Feelings
23:05 Therapy and Psychic Rituals
24:18 Sponsor Break The Testaments
26:12 Motherhood and Fear of Failing
29:36 Love Story With Jamie
33:54 A Surprise Voice Note
💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER:
I do always have imposter syndrome and maybe even as a mother... I really struggle with ‘mum guilt’.
Had I been diagnosed with ADHD earlier, I would've been able to understand and have more compassion for myself.
🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS:
Raising Chelsea is available to watch now on Disney+
The Testaments, a new Hulu original series, streaming April 8 exclusively on Disney+
Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content
Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com
📚 WANT MORE?
Jamie Laing - on anxiety, insecurity and the pressure of fame. Plus his ‘failure’ to have a long-term relationship [spoiler alert: it all worked out just fine!]: swap.fm/l/QXKrzzpg5hULgBpXWMBY
Dorinda Medley - on young widowhood, dealing with anger and what The Real Housewives of New York taught her: swap.fm/l/Q3MPl0zGn9MShaUdGEi4
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Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan
Engineer: Matias Torres
Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson
Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot
Executive Producer: Alex Lawless
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 I knew I was off duty and I was like, ah, he just thought I was being like really frisky on holiday. He was like, this is great. I actually then did go into trying to do a nine to five job.
0:11 Elizabeth Day? What was that?
0:12 Speaker 00 To this day, I still don't even know what the job was.
0:15 Elizabeth Day? Do you feel good enough?
0:19 Elizabeth Day? Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes the true test of character is not the failure itself, but in how we respond to it. Before we get started on this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode.
0:42 Elizabeth Day? One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become
1:24 Elizabeth Day? manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me. Ernesta makes designer quality
2:10 Elizabeth Day? Rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home. I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing and Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernesta.com and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernesta.com. My guest today is Sophie Habboo, podcaster, model, entrepreneur and reality TV star. After a childhood in Leamington Spa, boarding school and a media and communications degree
2:54 Elizabeth Day? at Newcastle University, she found fame on Made in Chelsea, E4's structured reality show, following the lives of affluent 20 something Londoners. Habboo initially struggled with the attention it brought her, but became a regular, crossing paths with her fellow castmate Jamie Laing in 2017. The two began dating and then launched a media empire. Their podcast Nearly Words was an instant hit and was rebranded as Newly Words when they got married in 2023. Fans of the show love the couple's hilarious and authentic repartee, whether it's arguing
3:34 Elizabeth Day? over hand jobs being underrated or having more serious conversations about anxiety and toxic masculinity. Habboo now runs the hugely successful Jam Podcast Production Company with her husband and the two served as executive producers on Raising Chelsea, a new three part Disney Plus documentary, following the couple as they face the messy, scary and comic reality of becoming parents for the first time. And yet, for someone who has publicly shared so much of her life, such focus still doesn't feel entirely comfortable.
4:11 Elizabeth Day? We always have this struggle in our relationship, Habu says. Jamie would want to share every single thing. And I find that a little bit scary. With this TV show, I realised that it wasn't going to work unless we showed everything. Sophie Habu, welcome to How to Fail. Oh my goodness, what an intro. I'm so happy to have you sitting opposite me.
4:36 Speaker 00 I'm thrilled.
4:37 Elizabeth Day? For multiple reasons, but one of them is I'm really honoured that How to Fail is your first ever solo podcast interview.
4:44 Speaker 00 I've been so nervous. I've been calling everyone. I'm like, I need to prep. Do I come in with notes?
4:49 Elizabeth Day? Oh, Sophie.
4:50 Speaker 00 Do people come in with notes?
4:52 Elizabeth Day? One person came in with notes. I think it was Gina Davis.
4:56 Speaker 00 It's a bit weird.
4:57 Elizabeth Day? Well, interestingly, you and she share something in common and it pertains to one of your failures, so we'll come on to that. Please don't be nervous. I lapped up every single second of Raising Chelsea.
5:09 Speaker 00 Have you watched it?
5:10 Elizabeth Day? I've watched it all, Sophie. I've done my research.
5:12 Speaker 00 Oh my goodness, I need to know everything.
5:14 Elizabeth Day? I think you really shine in Raising Chelsea. And I also think alongside you and Jamie, the breakout star are the parents.
5:22 Speaker 00 Oh, but Penny's got some absolute wild, amazing one liners.
5:27 Elizabeth Day? Yes, Penny is Jamie's mother. And at one point, she says that she left him in a pram in the garden for several hours and to train him out of crying.
5:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. Which she tells me to do regularly with Ziggy and I'm like, oh, cut, politely decline.
5:42 Elizabeth Day? I'm not going to do that. So funny. It was also lovely to see your parents. And your surname, Habu, has Iraqi heritage, is that right?
5:50 Speaker 00 Yes, my dad's Arabic, yeah.
5:51 Elizabeth Day? How interesting. Have you ever been to Iraq? Is that a weird question?
5:55 Speaker 00 No, I haven't been. I would love. It's such a shame because so my dad's family moved, well, most of them moved to Michigan when he was younger. And then his father moved to England. So my dad's never grown up. I mean, he doesn't speak Arabic, so we don't. It's very much like we eat Arabic food and stuff, but we don't, you know, I don't have much of that culture within me, which is a shame. I'd love to sort of be more cultured.
6:21 Elizabeth Day? What's your favourite Arabic food stuff?
6:24 Speaker 00 Oh, I love all the standard Babaganoush. My mum makes this incredible rice dish with like minced lamb. And weirdly, when she met my dad, his father made it. And so it was a very family thing. We all sort of ate it. It's delicious. I can't remember the name, but it's so good.
6:39 Elizabeth Day? What that shows is how important family is to you. And that's something that came across loud and clear throughout raising Chelsea as well. That this is something, it feels like you've always longed for, to be a mother.
6:53 Speaker 00 I, from a really young age, was like, all I want to do is, you know, have babies and have a family. So I feel really lucky that I'm in the position I am now.
7:03 Elizabeth Day? You say in the show that motherhood is everything you dreamed of and more. Does it still feel like that?
7:11 Speaker 00 I should actually start by saying that I am so sleep deprived at the moment. He's four months and he's, he's teething and sleep aggression. So if I'm not making any sense to you and the listeners, I'm so sorry. I, I do feel like my brain is like not quite gone back to normal since becoming a mother. But no, in answer to your question, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done, if not the hardest things I've ever done. And I'm only four months in, but yeah, the love is, is mad.
7:39 Elizabeth Day? Thank you for saying that about your fears that you're not making sense. Because you, from my side, you are incredibly eloquent and you're making total sense. But I think very often, there are diminishing terms applied to the experience of pregnancy and birth. So baby brain is kind of one of them.
7:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
7:58 Elizabeth Day? But actually, there is a serious underlying issue, which is all of these hormonal shifts and the brain fog.
8:03 Speaker 00 You know, you're tired, your brain's changing, the hormones. Are real, you know, if you're breastfeeding or you're stopping breastfeeding or all of it, it's a shift and it is just an adjustment. And so, yeah, I don't feel as, um, I wouldn't say I've ever been quick. And I've always got mumbled up with my words, but I'm more so now. Like, I'm a little bit like, woo, is it just air up there at the moment?
8:26 Elizabeth Day? No. Well, that's so interesting that you perceive yourself like that. And maybe it is because you think differently. So that's really interesting and we'll elaborate on that later. Ziggy is called Ziggy because you went on holiday to a beautiful place called Ziggy Bay.
8:40 Speaker 00 Lovely place.
8:41 Elizabeth Day? After Jamie had run those bloody ultramaraths.
8:45 Speaker 00 I know. I got him when he was vulnerable. I was like, now is my time. Didn't even tell him. Didn't even tell him.
8:51 Elizabeth Day? You didn't tell him that you were going on holiday?
8:53 Speaker 00 No, I, I, no, I was just like, blindfold, off we go. Um, no, I didn't tell him that what I, I, I was, I knew I was obviously doing. And I was like, ah, he just thought I was being like really frisky on holiday. He was like, this is great.
9:08 Elizabeth Day? But we as a nation felt like we ran alongside Jamie as he was running those marathons. It was an extraordinary thing to witness because he wore his emotions and his pain so publicly. It was something so beautiful about it. And I remember texting him and just getting these texts back saying, I'm in hell. I just don't think I can do it. Like, it was real, the, the amount that he was going through. What was that like for you, Sophie?
9:36 Speaker 00 It was so intense. But truthfully, Jamie actually didn't want me to come up. So I arrived on like day three. But he didn't want me to come up. He wanted to put his head down, like get involved. He just needed to get in the moment. But when I saw the videos and the clips and I spoke to him on FaceTime, I was like, he's not in a good way. And, and obviously everyone was so supportive and it was, you know, it was crazy looking back at it. It's a wild time. Everyone was rooting. I mean, people were out on the streets, like, it was mad. But it's just so proud. It was crazy. It's so proud, so brave. I didn't expect any of it. I don't think he expected any of it. I don't think he thought he would sort of have that emotional breakdown or be that vulnerable.
10:20 Speaker 00 He, he was just running, you know, for comic relief and he was gonna do this challenge for BBC, but actually it was so much more.
10:26 Elizabeth Day? Hmm.
10:27 Speaker 00 And I think it, I actually think it's really changed him as a person.
10:30 Elizabeth Day? Has it?
10:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, I definitely.
10:32 Elizabeth Day? Has it changed your relationship?
10:35 Speaker 00 Yes, it has. I think over the years since I've been with Jamie, he's obviously very openly spoken about his anxiety and, and all these, you know, different mental health hurdles that he's had to overcome. And I think throughout our relationship, he's just got to understand or become more vulnerable or become more okay or accepting with himself. And with doing that, it's just made us grow.
11:04 Elizabeth Day? Autumn's here, soup season is back, and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording, and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks, and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick, so you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius, and the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook. Hexclad
11:49 Elizabeth Day? is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. Okay, so your first failure is your failure to have boundaries.
12:14 Speaker 00 I want to stress that my family are amazing and I was so lucky. My parents were really liberal. And actually, it sounds a really weird thing to say, but you know, my, my dad almost had no boundaries. Like, whatever you want to do, you can do. I wasn't often told no. My sister was always sort of the academic one. She was amazing at school and I was sort of the theatrical entertainer, like crazy. Oh my goodness, Sophie's crazy. She has all these weird sayings that she says, like sophiasms, they used to call her. We had this very liberal life and we were always encouraged to do anything, but never really given the structure to help with it. And I, I, I hope if my parents are listening to this,
12:54 Speaker 00 my, my childhood was incredible. I'm so lucky. But I went to uni and I did media and communications and I did well. But I never identified, you know, I got a two one, but I never identified as someone who was academic. I never identified as someone who was going to go into a normal nine to five. Like I was always gonna become an actor. That's what my dad told me I was gonna do. I thought I would just walk onto a set and be cast a role. So I went to a acting class and I was very humbled. Very quickly, like everyone there had been doing it since they were like eight. They had done auditions, they had done training, they'd been rejected and I was just there and they were like, so what have you done? I've been in my school plays and my tiny little girl's school, which has 20 people in my year.
13:39 Speaker 00 Like I was very much like a big fish in a small pond and suddenly coming into this, I was like, this is not gonna be as easy as I think it's gonna be. So I quit that acting class. And I was like that, I, I mean, there's no way I can do that. I realised how hard it would be to get into that industry. I actually then did go into trying to do a nine to five job.
14:03 Elizabeth Day? What was that?
14:04 Speaker 00 To this day, I still don't even know what the job was. I had to sit in a room and I had to answer calls and if they wanted to go to like, you know, if they wanted to do something, I'd have to put them on to.
14:16 Elizabeth Day? Like a switchboard.
14:17 Speaker 00 It was like a switchboard. But of course I didn't listen to what, when they were telling me what I had to do.
14:22 Elizabeth Day? I hope it wasn't like a nine nine nine operator.
14:27 Speaker 00 I promise you guys it wasn't. But I essentially, every time they called, I was like, yeah, I got it. Easy. Sounds a breeze. When they'd call me, they'd say, oh, this is what I wanna do. And I'd look at the keypad, I'd be like overwhelmed, so I'd hang up the phone. Every time. I did it for eight hours. I just hung up every time. And so I was leaving that day. This is day one of my job. I was leaving. I was about to get on the tube and I got a call. I picked up and I was like, it was my manager. She said, I'm really sorry, we don't want you to come back tomorrow. So I lasted one day. I mean, it just horrendous. So at that point, I was like, hmm, don't think nine to five, like this office jobs for me. And again, I'd always sort of been pigeonholed as like not academic.
15:12 Speaker 00 Like I need to do something different and in the entertainment world. And luckily, Made in Chelsea came along. And obviously I know people have the preconceptions about Made in Chelsea and it, you know, it's reality TV and it's a bunch of posh twenty year olds.
15:28 Elizabeth Day? Uh, I love it. Still watch it. Age forty seven.
15:31 Speaker 00 How good is it now?
15:32 Elizabeth Day? It's uh, how, do you mean that as in like, isn't it great?
15:35 Speaker 00 I think it's amazing now.
15:37 Elizabeth Day? Do you? Oh, I think your era was the best era, but I'm still really enjoying it.
15:41 Speaker 00 I'm thrilled that you say that.
15:43 Elizabeth Day? Oh my gosh, one hundred percent. But I think maybe it's because I'm so much older than.
15:47 Speaker 00 I know, I really can't identify.
15:49 Elizabeth Day? Yes. Anyway, sorry, I interrupted.
15:50 Speaker 00 Sorry, okay, so.
15:51 Elizabeth Day? But you're amongst friends here.
15:53 Speaker 00 I love it. I love it. I still watch it every night. Jamie's like, please can you turn off? It gives me anxiety.
15:58 Elizabeth Day? I'm so happy you still watch it.
15:59 Speaker 00 Yeah. Jazz and jewels. I love them.
16:01 Elizabeth Day? Yes.
16:02 Speaker 00 I love them. I'm rooting for them as just like the greatest backbones. Anyway, we digress.
16:09 Speaker 00 So I went on to Made in Chelsea and, you know, it felt like an easy option. It was in the entertainment world. It's what my dad and my family had always said that, you know, that's what I should be doing or. Sorry, I do wanna just stress that my parents didn't like push me to do anything. They are amazing.
16:25 Elizabeth Day? Yes, that's coming across loud and clear. It really is. Like your parents are amazing, were amazing, and they come across like that on the show as well.
16:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
16:34 Elizabeth Day? But, uh, and well, yes, I thought it was totally, just let me set your mind at ease.
16:37 Speaker 00 Well, then they'll be listening. I mean, that is so big. And I went and I did Made in Chelsea and obviously. Made in Chelsea is Made in Chelsea and, and you know, I've met Jamie and I, I, I now do podcasting and all of these amazing opportunities have, you know, and now I'm doing Raising Chelsea. And so I'm so grateful for that, but I do, a failure of mine is. I wish I'd set myself those boundaries to have even tried. I just, I just copped it the first hurdle.
17:06 Elizabeth Day? I think you're being really hard on yourself. And I think the thing that it's reminding me of is a very early interview I did on How to Fail with Dolly Alderton, who actually also started out her career on Made in Chelsea. And she was talking about her parents and how much they love her and how much they believed and still believe that she is capable of anything. Whether she wants to be prime minister or a nuclear scientist, or the incredible screenwriter and author that she is. They just loved her so much, which is the primary thing that a parent should do. And her point was that that was so wonderful, but it equips you quite badly for the harsh realities of the real world
17:48 Elizabeth Day? outside of your front door. And I wonder if you relate to that. Like, actually, at home, it was sort of wonderful to be in this boundaryless bubble of parental love. But was it when you confronted the real world that that was trickier?
18:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, massively. Like, I remember core memories of mine were my parents sort of saying to, you know, their friends. And I was so little, but I was just listening, as you do. And it's so interesting looking back at that, at how much we absorb when we're younger. I remember them saying, Sophie's definitely gonna be on stage one day, you know, things like that.
18:22 Elizabeth Day? Yes.
18:22 Speaker 00 And when I went to the audition, and I could instantly see, when I was doing the audition, I could instantly see they were like, you're rubbish. Or they were just like, no, you know. And I, I didn't, I wasn't equipped for that. I was like, what? Surely you're gonna cast me?
18:40 Elizabeth Day? Yes.
18:41 Speaker 00 Which, you know, if I'd had that sort of like, it's gonna be tough, you've gotta be resilient, you're gonna have rejection, it's a really hard industry. Maybe I would have been more equipped to. Have have I would have had more tenacity, maybe.
18:55 Elizabeth Day? I also think that the labels we give ourselves or society gives us or our families give us. The one who's going to be on stage, the one who's not academic. In a way, whilst they can be very loving and very supportive, they also make you feel like a failure if you don't live up to that. But it's ultimately someone else's label.
19:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's so true. It's funny because I I do believe that I always wanted to be in entertainment in some way. Um. But it's funny, like so many people, you know, grew up thinking, I want to be a doctor or I want to be a ballet dancer or I want to be a vet. And it's like, did we think that? At what stage did we think that or did somebody else? You know, were we pigeonholed to that?
19:38 Elizabeth Day? Exactly. Now, very often, people who struggle with boundaries, and I count myself in this category, become people pleasers.
19:47 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:47 Elizabeth Day? To an extreme, that means that they forget their own needs in the mix of trying to please others. Did you have that experience?
19:55 Speaker 00 Yes, massively. I think not so much in my early days, but particularly when Jamie and I. You know, we started the podcast, we I really lost the sense of boundaries then. And I was very, you know, I'm married to somebody who is literally the king of no boundaries. He is has no boundaries. He's like cameras, follow me in while I go to the loo, like there's no boundaries. And I think actually marrying him or even being in a relationship with him really made me realise how much I need boundaries. You know, he's a he's a thorough extrovert. He thrives and is energised by socialising, entertaining.
20:38 Speaker 00 Being with people twenty four seven. I I'm definitely introvert extrovert and I really recharge by having those moments to myself.
20:45 Elizabeth Day? I do.
20:46 Speaker 00 And so I think in the early stages of our relationship, and particularly when we first started the podcast, I was, you know, and he will say this too, I was sort of dragged along with him. I don't know how he survives with the amount of stuff he does. And I was very much like, whoa, I'm not surviving. I was really burnt out, really exhausted. And I was just saying yes to everything.
21:08 Elizabeth Day? Hmm. Because you didn't want to let him down?
21:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, because I didn't want to let him down, but also because I didn't know myself. I didn't know how I recharged. I didn't know what my boundaries were. I just thought this, this is, these are all amazing opportunities. I surely want to be doing them. And now I know myself more, like, yes, I can do them, but I need to have that downtime. I need to have a moment of myself to breathe. Like, I can't, I'm not as high energy as him.
21:37 Elizabeth Day? There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its AI tools can help you get your site up and running quickly. And Shopify Checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, ooh, I like that, to, yes, I'll have one. If Shopify had existed when I started
22:19 Elizabeth Day? out, I could have saved myself a lot of time, stress, and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the
22:28 Elizabeth Day? of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right. Start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk/fail. Autumn's here, soup season is back, and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording, and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hex Cloud. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks, and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of nonstick, so
23:11 Elizabeth Day? you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius, and the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook. Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. How did you get to know yourself?
23:48 Speaker 00 Well, it's still getting to know myself, Elizabeth. It's a long old process.
23:53 Elizabeth Day? Me too.
23:55 Speaker 00 When we got engaged and started the wedding process, I always said to Jamie, and he'll say this as well, and I love my husband so much and he's amazing, so I don't want to sound like I'm bashing him either. But he, he always wanted this huge, big, white wedding, loads of people. He, you know, he wanted to walk down the aisle himself in a white suit. And I said to him straight away, I want to get married with 20 people with my feet in the sand. I didn't want, you know, I don't like birthday parties. I, it's funny because I obviously do the podcast and when I'm in the work environment, I, I can do it, but in my private time, I'm actually quite a private person. I don't love being the centre of attention.
24:37 Speaker 00 And when we were getting married, he was very much like, this is the big white wedding. This is what everyone dreams of. And everyone was saying it to me. It wasn't just him, you know, everyone, God, you're living the dream. And we've grown up thinking that women want this big, white wedding and we want to have our moment, but I... I was incredibly overwhelmed. I found it really overwhelming, which then caused me to have massive anxiety. And obviously, the podcast, you know, we're so lucky that so many people were so interested, interested in it. But it became like a big spectacle, weirdly. And that, you know, made me have imposter syndrome and I just, I was really struggling with massive overwhelm and anxiety.
25:21 Speaker 00 I was looking around thinking, everyone is so excited for me. Everyone is like behind us. Everyone's rooting for us. I'm gonna have this incredible wedding of people's dreams, like the fairy tale wedding. Why, why am I not able to cope with this? And my anxiety got so bad that I went and spoke to a therapist and they said, I, I think we need to get you tested for ADHD. Have you ever been tested for it? And, limp old, I have ADHD. And I know it's, I know everyone talks about ADHD and I know it's, you know, it's a bit of a buzzword at the moment. But having gone through what I've gone through and everyone handles it differently, like now I know I have ADHD.
26:05 Speaker 00 It, it does make a lot of sense and it is really tough when, you know, to manage if you do have it. And you've been diagnosed with it. It is, it is hard when you've got it. And so, yeah, I found the wedding and all of the chaos and just all of it incredibly overwhelming. And, yeah, it was, it was like a crazy time. And that is actually one of my failures. Because had I been diagnosed with ADHD earlier, I would have been able to understand and have more compassion for myself. And it's really sad for me to look back at our wedding because it was, you know, in so many ways, the best day of my life. And I should have enjoyed it so much. But I was just really struggling and I didn't cope as well as I could have done because I didn't know what was wrong with me.
26:50 Elizabeth Day? Thank you so much for opening up about that. And we will come on to your ADHD next, because as you say, it is your second failure, the late diagnosis of it. I think so many people relate and do relate when you take the risk of opening up about these things that you feel are uniquely your own. You described it as having imposter syndrome about your own wedding. And actually, that's why your podcasting is so great, because you say the things that so many other people are secretly feeling. And that is the antidote to shame is sharing. So thank you for opening up. I wonder if I could ask you potentially a tricky question. In the run up to the wedding, how bad did it get? Did you think at any point, I'm gonna have to call this off? I can't cope?
27:36 Speaker 00 Weirdly, I think the fact that I didn't think that was an option was what caused the anxiety to spiral. I just felt like I was, I held it all in because I was so confused why I couldn't cope with this. You know, as I said, I'd always wanted to be in entertainment. I wanted to be on stage. I wanted to be an actor. Like, why could I not cope with all of this attention? Or all of the, you know, planning a wedding, we did a live show a month before our wedding, you know, all of those things. I couldn't understand why I wasn't managing. So I held it all in because I was so embarrassed. I thought there was something wrong with me. And I think the fact I didn't speak about it, and I didn't say, I'm actually really struggling with this. I'm actually feeling really anxious about this. I actually
28:21 Speaker 00 don't want this enormous 250 people wedding. I want to just go away and get married on a beach with bare feet. The fact I didn't say those things made me worse.
28:31 Elizabeth Day? Yes. Looking back on your wedding day now, how do you feel about it when you look at photos?
28:38 Speaker 00 I feel, I feel sad looking back at it because I can see that I was just struggling. Yeah, I was so overwhelmed. I was, I was really burnt out. I was just like, whoa, what is going on? So I have compassion looking back on it now. But like, that's only been since, you know, I got diagnosed. I've understood it. I've unpacked it. You know, I had to, I did a lot of work on myself after my wedding. Because I, again, it was like a shock. I couldn't understand what I was feeling.
29:05 Elizabeth Day? Yes. I'm not suggesting that you do this for a minute, but I was married before.
29:12 Elizabeth Day? And I had the conventional white wedding, eighty to a hundred people with my ex-husband. And I felt not as happy as I thought I should have felt. And obviously, I was marrying the wrong person, but also there was a degree of overwhelm that I can completely relate to. And when I got married to Justin, my now husband, it was during the pandemic and it was literally him and me, two registrars, my best friend and her then-husband. And it was the most romantic thing ever. And I think you and Jamie should renew your vows. That's what I think you should do.
29:40 Speaker 00 Honestly, I really do too.
29:42 Elizabeth Day? Yes.
29:42 Speaker 00 I think about it all the time.
29:43 Elizabeth Day? Do you?
29:45 Speaker 00 I've said it, Tim, but then he's like, yeah, yeah, we'll make it into a huge thing.
29:48 Elizabeth Day? No, no, I don't want cameras there, Jamie. No, that's the point. I want my feet in the sand. I want Sophie's feet in the sand. Okay, thank you so much for talking about that. Let's talk about your diagnosis for ADHD. So how old were you when you got this diagnosis?
30:05 Speaker 00 So I was twenty eight. It was just after my wedding that I went and got diagnosed. And I was like, oh. And when we unpacked it and I learned about it, I was like, this makes so much sense. Like, I've always struggled like regulating my emotions, severe overwhelm. You know, Jamie speaks about having ADHD, which is crazy, having two people married who both have quite severe ADHD. And we have quite different types of it.
30:29 Elizabeth Day? Interesting.
30:30 Speaker 00 His is like, you know, hyperactive, he's energy on the go, he's duh duh duh, hyperfixation. Mine is like overwhelm. I could have a to-do list that's three pages long and I will just stare at it and end up doing the complete opposite.
30:45 Speaker 00 So yeah, I got diagnosed when I was twenty eight, just after the wedding. And I, it just, it just made everything like, oh, I get it now. And it made me able to look at me and be like, I feel sort of, you know, I have compassion.
30:59 Elizabeth Day? Yes. And how does it make sense of some of the things that you experienced? So you mentioned in your email to me, that idea of feeling.
31:09 Elizabeth Day? A feeling almost embarrassed that you didn't progress academically the way that you could have done. Is that part of how you experience ADHD?
31:17 Speaker 00 I actually did quite well, like I did.
31:19 Elizabeth Day? Yeah, I was about to say, two one, hello.
31:22 Speaker 00 Two one, I got all A's and A stars, my GCSEs and A levels. But again, I just, I was able to hyper fixate and revise. But in lessons, I was never very good with vocabulary. I always got my words muddled up. And I would like stumble or talk really quickly and I still do it now. And weirdly, our podcast, people seem to find that really funny, but that's, which is so lovely because it's always been something that I was quite insecure about. You know, like I hate playing ball games. Like if someone puts a ball game, I actually get in a mood. I'm like, I hate you for suggesting that we should play a ball game because I will not understand it. I won't understand the instructions because my brain can't concentrate on what they're telling me.
32:02 Elizabeth Day? Yes.
32:03 Speaker 00 It is something that I'm insecure of, like doing something like this. It's, it's weirdly something that I become nervous about because I just sometimes struggle to get the words out. And it's because like my brain's just like.
32:17 Elizabeth Day? I don't have ADHD, but I have that thing of like, I can't think what word to use next. And also.
32:23 Speaker 00 No, Elizabeth, you are so.
32:25 Elizabeth Day? That's so lovely of you, but like. Thank you, but I feel that about you.
32:31 Elizabeth Day? And I, I just want you to know that, even though it might feel sort of chaotic and overwhelming in your head, you don't come across like that ever.
32:38 Speaker 00 Wow.
32:38 Elizabeth Day? Ever, yes.
32:39 Speaker 00 Are you sure?
32:40 Elizabeth Day? I'm positive. I mean, I don't like see you every night or wake up with you every morning. Sorry, Jamie. But, but my experience of you having listened to your podcast and watched you on TV and now meeting you again now and like anytime I've met you in the past. I, I just, I really would love to release you from that sense of imposter life.
33:01 Speaker 00 That's so nice to hear. Thank you.
33:02 Elizabeth Day? Of course. When we started this podcast and you said, does anyone ever bring notes? The person that I thought of was Gina Davis, the actress, and she came on the podcast. And she was diagnosed with ADHD in later life as well.
33:15 Speaker 00 Me and her.
33:15 Elizabeth Day? And the other person was Nicole Scherzinger.
33:18 Speaker 00 Love.
33:18 Elizabeth Day? There we go.
33:19 Speaker 00 Oh, I want to hear all about that. I will be listening to that straight away. And what, they, they needed the notes because they couldn't. Think of the things to say, because I was fearful. I was like, I might come into this and then it's all just out.
33:31 Elizabeth Day? Yes, and I don't know what Nicole Scherzinger, why she was bringing notes. In fact, I find it's like a real compliment if someone has really thought that much about it. But I think, yes, I think it's that thing of wanting to communicate the truth of yourself and potentially being fearful that you're not going to do a good enough job.
33:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's like when you walk out a room and you're like, oh my god, I wanted to say all of those things, but you're in an argument and you leave that finished argument. You're like, I should go into an argument with notes because I always walk out of it. And I'm like, I could have won that argument, but I forgot everything that I wanted to say.
34:05 Elizabeth Day? I feel like you win most arguments with Jamie though. Robber rings around it.
34:09 Speaker 00 What am I talking about?
34:11 Elizabeth Day? Talking about Jamie and ADHD and the fact that he lives with it too. How easy have you found it to open up to Jamie about the things that you were feeling and are feeling? Because I imagine in the run up to the wedding, that was probably quite tricky.
34:26 Speaker 00 It was really tricky and he, he will say this openly, like he couldn't understand it. He kept saying, what are you talking about? This is amazing, you know, it's all he'd ever wanted.
34:40 Speaker 00 Which obviously sadly like just made me feel even more, you know, upset and confused and like
34:46 Elizabeth Day? Isolated.
34:46 Speaker 00 Isolated. But now we've, we've both sort of gone to therapy. We've spoken about it before. We've done couples therapy, which we love. And he got diagnosed with the same doctor that diagnosed me after me. So he was able to really understand about ADHD and how it shows up with people differently.
35:06 Speaker 00 And he can really see it now. We've, we've really understood each other more and we've worked on ourselves together and separately. And to be able to communicate more and understand it, because it is confusing and everyone feels things differently. And like, he doesn't understand a lot of the way I feel. Like, I don't understand a lot of the way he feels.
35:24 Elizabeth Day? Yes. So you go to a therapist, but you also, I read somewhere, go to a psychic once a year?
35:31 Speaker 00 We love a psychic. Jamie actually was doing secret psychic. Sessions without telling me, like, he became really obsessed with the psychic. He was doing monthly, it was like a therapy, he was monthly psychic sessions.
35:42 Elizabeth Day? Wow.
35:43 Speaker 00 I've always gone to psychics, both my parents went to psychics. So even as a little girl, I used to go and like sit in the room and my mum would go to the psychic. She lived in this little tiny house and she smoked, honestly, she chain smoked and the house was like, my eyes would sting going into there. And I used to sit in her living, like the waiting room while my mum would have psychic readings.
36:02 Elizabeth Day? Wow.
36:03 Speaker 00 We love them.
36:04 Elizabeth Day? Your final failure is fear of failure as a mother. Tell me about this, like, when did this fear start? Has it been ever present?
36:14 Speaker 00 Really weirdly, it started without knowing when I got diagnosed with ADHD. I said to him, how have I, how have I gone my whole life without getting diagnosed? And he said, a lot of women get diagnosed later in life, particularly new mums. And I said, really, why? And he said, um, they come in, they really struggle becoming new parents. They feel, they find it so overwhelming and they get recommended to come and, and you know, and they've been going their whole lives with undiagnosed ADHD. And once they know that, they can sort of use the tools to help them be present with their children and don't become so overwhelmed. And that, even though I only, I got diagnosed when I was 28 and I wasn't thinking about children then,
36:57 Speaker 00 I was so far off it, it really stuck in my mind. So when I became pregnant, I kept thinking in my head, you know, it was just a thought in the back of my head, like, you're really gonna struggle, you're really gonna struggle. And I think that's why I did, I was anxious my whole pregnancy, which, oh god, it really comes off in the show.
37:15 Elizabeth Day? Oh, but again, it's so relatable.
37:18 Speaker 00 I think, you know, it's whether you've been told that or not, I think when you're pregnant for the first time, it's so many unknowns, you don't, you know, and you're responsible for this little human growing inside you. I mean, like, everything, I drank a coffee and I'd be like, shit, I drank a coffee, you know?
37:37 Speaker 00 But I think that's where the fear came from and of course, it's still with me all the time. I try and be as present as I, I can be and.
37:48 Speaker 00 I mean, I will say, I do, I'm really pleasantly surprised. I do feel like Ziggy is my calm and I, I actually. When I'm with him, I don't really think about anything else. I'm really able to be present with him and just, you know, he keeps me, I feel my calm is when I'm with him, which is so lovely and, you know, such a amazing surprise because I didn't expect it to be like that.
38:10 Elizabeth Day? Do you feel good enough?
38:14 Speaker 00 As a mother?
38:15 Elizabeth Day? Generally.
38:16 Speaker 00 No, does anyone? That's such an interesting question. It's such a deep question.
38:23 Elizabeth Day? Yeah.
38:25 Speaker 00 There are moments I feel really proud of myself and there are moments I feel good enough, but I do think I, I do always have imposter syndrome. And maybe even as a mother, you know, you know, I'm back to work now and I, I really struggle with mum guilt.
38:39 Elizabeth Day? Well, the good news is that you're not an arrogant narcissist. Because the, the poignant news is so many people will look at you and think rightly how amazing you are. And for me, life has been a process of
38:59 Elizabeth Day? of, of gradually building on low self-esteem. And I wish that for you too, because from what I've seen on screen, you are an amazing parent. And Ziggy is a very contented little baby because he can clearly feel the safety of his parents' love. What kind of parent do you think you each are, you and Jamie?
39:27 Speaker 00 I feel content being a mother and, and of course I have those doubts in my mind and of course I worry and I have mum guilt and all of those things, but I do think that is normal. And I hope and I feel like I'm doing a good job. He's a very happy, happy boy and he's so loved. I think I will be. Oh god, I think I'll be really weak and just let him do anything and just obsessed. I honestly, I always said to Jamie, I was like, your relationship with your mum's a bit weird. Like, she loves you a bit too much and you love her a bit too much. And now I'm a mum to a boy. I'm like, I get it, I get it, honestly.
40:03 Elizabeth Day? Do you think Jamie will be the disciplinarian?
40:05 Speaker 00 I think he will be.
40:06 Elizabeth Day? Stop it, I can't even imagine that.
40:07 Speaker 00 I think he will be, I know. I'm shocked too. But I promise you, I think he's gonna have to be, because I'm not gonna be.
40:14 Elizabeth Day? And what's Ziggy like? Like, what's his character like?
40:17 Speaker 00 He's very smiley, he's very, he's so chilled. I'm so surprised. I thought he'd be crazy and so energetic, but he's a chiller, like, touch wood. So far, he's just cooching, he just loves it.
40:31 Elizabeth Day? I mean, looking back at your journey, can you imagine if someone had said to you, this guy, Jamie, with the peroxide hair, that you've just crossed past with on Made in Chelsea?
40:44 Speaker 00 Who cheats on Avril?
40:45 Elizabeth Day? Yes, exactly. I mean, what did you first think when you first saw Jamie?
40:52 Speaker 00 Oh my goodness, I didn't like him. I was friends with his ex-girlfriend and he was not very, treating her very well. So I was like, naturally, I really don't like this guy. I thought he was very arrogant, but I did think he was very funny.
41:03 Elizabeth Day? Okay.
41:04 Speaker 00 And I very quickly, we went away to Croatia, like, very early on in Made in Chelsea, and we became such good friends. I mean, we were like sharing that in a non-romantic way, but we were like joint other hip. We became really close.
41:16 Elizabeth Day? When was the first time you started to feel romantic towards him?
41:21 Speaker 00 Well, it's funny because looking back at it, even in Croatia, where we were both in relationships with people, everyone was like, you know, my best friend Melissa, she was like, you guys are in love with each other. Like, there's something really weird going on. I was like, stop it, no we're not.
41:36 Speaker 00 And then we, like, used to call each other and see each other the whole time, even after that. But I think the first time we started, or I started feeling things for him, was in Cape Town, because everyone said to me, he really likes you. And even though I was saying, no, he doesn't, he doesn't, I kind of, you know when you know. And I was like, oh god, I think I feel the same. But I just kept it all in.
41:59 Elizabeth Day? And I got to see it all on E4.
42:03 Speaker 00 If you wanna watch him find out what happened.
42:05 Elizabeth Day? I know. And he saw you in this bikini and he was like, oh my god, I can't get her out of my mind.
42:10 Speaker 00 He was like, she's a woman. I'm like, well, what did you think I was before?
42:13 Elizabeth Day? Yeah. Also, I have the privilege of having been around when you and Jamie were getting really serious. Do you remember?
42:23 Speaker 00 You sent me a text. Oh my god. This is real tea.
42:27 Elizabeth Day? Can we talk about it?
42:28 Speaker 00 Yes, we can.
42:29 Elizabeth Day? Okay.
42:30 Speaker 00 What exactly happened?
42:31 Elizabeth Day? So what happened was, you and Jamie were boyfriend and girlfriend, but it was still quite early days.
42:38 Speaker 00 Very early.
42:39 Elizabeth Day? And I think it was like, I was trying to think about it. It was either 2018 or 20, no, it was 2019.
42:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
42:44 Elizabeth Day? And Jamie came and did a live How to Fail show with me in Bath. And he came with Penny, his mum.
42:50 Speaker 00 Yes.
42:51 Elizabeth Day? And we went for a pub dinner before the show and Jamie seemed really off. Because normally he's so high energy and charismatic and just adorable and like radiates positivity. And there was, he was still all of that, but there was something. I was like, what's wrong? He said, I've just had a massive row with Sophie. I was like, what? I was like, I've got to sort this out before we go on stage.
43:16 Speaker 00 You were like, do not ruin my show. Pull it together.
43:19 Elizabeth Day? First ever tour, I'm like, come on, Jamie. I said, what, what went wrong? And he said that, I don't know if this is true, sorry. He said that he'd like stupidly DM'd someone on Instagram.
43:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
43:30 Elizabeth Day? I was like, you absolute idiot, why did you do that? He was like, I don't know. I think I'm too needy and I just love Sophie so much and I need her to know. And he was so upset. I'd never seen him like that. And you and I had never met, but I voice noted you on Instagram.
43:47 Speaker 00 Oh, you did? You were like, Sophie, he does love you. I promise you. I was like, oh my goodness. Who's been texting me?
43:55 Elizabeth Day? Jamie was like, she'll really like, she'll really take it from you. Like, she'll really respect what you say. And you were away somewhere. You were in South America.
44:03 Speaker 00 I was in South America filming Made it to L C.
44:06 Elizabeth Day? Anyway, it was such an overstep on my part. I'm so sorry. But genuinely, I'd never seen him so devastated.
44:12 Speaker 00 I think it was what got us back together. So we wouldn't, we wouldn't have Ziggy if it wasn't for you.
44:16 Elizabeth Day? Sorry. Is it because of me?
44:20 Elizabeth Day? Anyway, I I've loved being a tiny part of of your relationship. And I wanted to say something to you, which is that Jamie came on How to Fail initially for his episode very early on, I think it was 2018, and one of his failures was his failure to have a long term relationship at the age of 30. And we spoke a lot about that. And I just think it's so beautiful to see where you both are now. And Sophie, I have a little surprise for you, which is that you're going to hear something now that we're going to play through the speakers in the studio, and it's just for you.
44:59 Speaker 02 This is Jamie here, Sophie's husband. And I know as Sophie hears my voice, she'll be cringing because she'll be so worried what I'm about to say. So Sophie, I apologize. I know sometimes you don't like outward emotion, but here it is for you. Sophie and I met on a TV show called Made in Chelsea. And I think without knowing it, I craved normalness. And this sounds strange, but my first impression of Sophie was she was so normal, in the best way. And in that world of entertainment and reality TV, that's all you ever want. And Sophie was that for me. Sophie made me realize that being me was enough. I don't think I've ever told her that.
45:44 Speaker 02 The most attractive thing I realize now about her is that she's an amazing mum. Now, if there's one thing that I could change about her, and as I'm saying this, you'll be mauling it, but it's probably her temper. This sounds so bad, but Sophie can go from nought to a hundred within the space of a second. There's no gearing up, there's no warming up, it's straight there, which is also the fiery side of her that I love, but also it is, you know, a wild ride occasionally when you're not expecting it. But. Everything else about her overshadows any sort of um
46:26 Speaker 02 temper that she can have and normally I deserve most of it if I'm totally honest. Getting married to Sophie is the best decision I've ever made in my entire life. And I feel lucky every day. Yes, we argue. Yes, we have our ups and downs. Yes, I'd probably annoy her to the end of the earth. But we truly are best friends. Sophie, I love you. I'm so proud of you. And you're the greatest.
46:55 Speaker 02 And what's even more exciting is it's just the beginning of everything. Okay, that was cheesy enough. I hope you're having a good episode. Bye bye.
47:02 Speaker 00 Oh my goodness.
47:05 Speaker 00 That is so...
47:06 Elizabeth Day? Well, I'm crying.
47:09 Speaker 00 I feel so privileged.
47:11 Elizabeth Day? Oh my gosh.
47:12 Speaker 00 Given that lovely, lovely no. That is so sweet. No, he's so sweet.
47:16 Elizabeth Day? You deserve that every single day. I'll send it to you. You can make it your ringtone.
47:20 Speaker 00 I'll just, I'll, I'll put that as a loop and I'll just go to sleep because at the moment I go to sleep listening to the Harry Potter, the Philosopher's Stone on repeat, just the first book every night. So I'm gonna change it to that.
47:30 Elizabeth Day? Change it to this.
47:32 Speaker 00 That's so lovely.
47:33 Elizabeth Day? And let it go in, let that soak in, like how much you are loved, not just by Jamie, but also by all of your listeners and viewers, all of your fans, your son. Um, Sophie Abu, thank you so, so much for making How to Fail your first ever solo podcast interview. We love you.
47:52 Speaker 00 Thank you so much. Love you.
47:59 Elizabeth Day? Now, just before you go, I have some very exciting news. My great friend, Dan Jones, who you'll know as the host of This is History, he's a phenomenal historian and novelist, although I don't really like to tell him that because he's also very smug. Anyway, the two of us have known each other for years and we've got a new podcast. I know, sound the history alarm. We're extremely excited about it. It's called History's Greatest Fails. See what we did there? And Dan and I will discuss, you guessed it, some of the biggest failures. In history, we'll be chatting about everything from failed romance, think Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn, Antony and Cleopatra, as well as overlooked women like Ada Lovelace.
48:42 Elizabeth Day? And we'll be chatting about Richard III and happy accidents in history. Go and search for History's Greatest Fails wherever you get your podcasts, or watch on YouTube. Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.
Previous Elizabeth's New Show: History’s Greatest Fails Next Emma Grede - ‘Ambition Is Something I Am Entitled to’ Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated