The Illegality and Injustice of ICE’s Minnesota Occupation

Melissa, Kate, and Leah break down the various legal cases arising from ICE’s occupation of Minnesota, including a bid to end DHS’s Operation Metro Surge and a case from citizens seeking to block the abusive use of tear gas and pepper spray. Then, the hosts welcome Crooked’s Tommy Vietor to talk about all things foreign policy: Trump's blatant disdain for international law, the so-called “DonRoe Doctrine,” the President’s wildly incoherent and pointless tariffs, and why Trump’s claim that he’s ended eight wars is beyond laughable. Finally, a deeply concerning FBI raid on the Fulton County elections office supervised by Hawaii's least favorite daughter, Tulsi Gabbard. Favorite things: Leah: Streets Of Minneapolis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWKSoxG1K7w, Bruce Springsteen; The Blood-and-Soil Nationalism That Killed Alex Pretti and Renee Good https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/tanehisi-coates-homeland-ice-minneapolis-trump, Ta-Nehisi Coates (Vanity Fair); Minnesota Proved MAGA Wrong https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/the-neighbors-defending-minnesota-from-ice/685769/?gift=Je3D9AQS-C17lUTOnl2W8L893jn-xkg4gA0ahaD_Ltw&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share, Adam Serwer (The Atlantic); Chris Hayes’ reporting from MN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7uLeIlC1LE Kate: This May Be the Only Path to Accountability for the Minneapolis Shootings https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/26/opinion/minneapolis-shooting-ice-accountability.html, Barry Friedman and Stephen I. Vladeck (NYT); Who Gave ICE Permission to Trample the Constitution? https://slate.com/podcasts/amicus/2026/01/in-minneapolis-and-beyond-ice-is-acting-with-impunity-thanks-to-scotus Amicus (Slate); JVN Hair https://jvnhair.com/?srsltid=AfmBOopxXSxPMca2Ny5TxthUpQQW4HR4Q0usotCyIkabQqNQT8XdpilF; Migrations https://bookshop.org/p/books/migrations-a-novel-charlotte-mcconaghy/b7436673a5608e72?ean=9781250204035&next=t, Charlotte McConaghy Melissa: His and Hers https://www.netflix.com/title/81662954?source=35&fromWatch=true, Reality Check: Inside America’s Next Top Model https://www.netflix.com/title/81928842 (Netflix); King of the North https://bookshop.org/p/books/king-of-the-north-martin-luther-king-jr-s-life-of-struggle-outside-the-south-jeanne-theoharis/f812d5f86346d8dc?ean=9781620979310&next=t Martin Luther King Jr.'s Life of Struggle Outside the South https://bookshop.org/p/books/king-of-the-north-martin-luther-king-jr-s-life-of-struggle-outside-the-south-jeanne-theoharis/f812d5f86346d8dc?ean=9781620979310&next=t, Jeanne Theoharis Get tickets for STRICT SCRUTINY LIVE – The Bad Decisions Tour 2026! 3/6/26 – San Francisco 3/7/26 – Los Angeles Learn more:http://crooked.com/eventsPreorder Melissa’s book, The U. S. Constitution: A Comprehensive and Annotated Guide for the Modern Reader https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-constitution-annotated-for-the-contemporary-reader-melissa-murray/8e7f0dfa472fc3ca?ean=9781668221938&next=t&Buy Leah's book,Lawless: How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Lawless/Leah-Litman/9781668054628Follow us onInstagram https://www.instagram.com/strictscrutinypodcast/?hl=en,Threads https://www.threads.net/@strictscrutinypodcast, andBluesky https://bsky.app/profile/strictscrutiny.bsky.social

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Leah Litman?

  Strict scrutiny is brought to you by Americans United for separation of church and state. We are all legal nerds here, and we know that precedent set in any area of the law ripples out across our lives in so many ways. Our right to religious freedom is one of the most sacred areas of the law, protecting almost every aspect of our daily lives, rights we all hold dear, like LGBTQ rights, freedom to choose the type of healthcare you need, and ensuring a well-funded and inclusive public school system. Protecting the separation of church and state is, in fact, protecting the very foundation of our democracy. If you're looking for ways to more deeply understand the connection of and from religion to so many of the civil justice issues we see today, you should check out the Summit for Religious Freedom, or SERF, an annual conference held in DC and virtually, April

• 0:44Leah Litman?

  25th to the 27th, 2026. At SERF, advocates, organizers, faith leaders, atheists, and everyone in between come together to take on the growing threats of Christian nationalism and the efforts to impose one narrow religious belief on us all. This is a movement for big change and collaboration across the entire spectrum of religious belief and non-belief that strengthens our democracy, protects public schools, reproductive and LGBTQ rights, and more. Be part of the movement that's pushing back and standing up for freedom. Register to attend today at theSRF.org.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  CrookedCon is coming up right after the election, and we have just added a bunch more great names to the lineup. We got Governor JB Pritzker coming, Senator Chris Murphy, and then over from the House side, Ilhan Omar, Robert Garcia, Sarah Jacobs, Jamie Raskin, Sarah McBride. We also have Carlos Eduardo Espina, Simone Sanders Townsend, Eugene Daniels, David Pakman, Jessica Tarlov, Heather McGee, and then all the other people that we've announced on the website, plus more to come. Great list. Check out the full lineup and get tickets right now at crookedcon.com. We'd love to see you there. That's crookedcon.com.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Mr. Chief Justice, may I please report? It's an old joke, but when a argued man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, "I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks."

• 2:32Leah Litman?

  Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. We're your hosts today. I'm Leah Litman.

• 2:39Kate Shaw?

  I'm Kate Shaw.

• 2:40Melissa Murray?

  And I'm Melissa Murray, and we are in a unique period in the court's calendar. Usually, the court takes a one-week break between different argument sessions. So after it hears arguments over the course of two weeks, it will take a week off and then return for the next sitting. So they just manage to give themselves little breaks here and there. And gotta say, don't mind if I do. Not like I'm working in the public interest or anything.

• 3:04Kate Shaw?

  Their calendar is something to aspire to. Yeah, it sure is. Okay, so that's normally how it works, but it's actually different between the January and February argument sessions, which is where we are now. So the court actually takes a three-week break from hearing arguments.

• 3:18Melissa Murray?

  Again, don't mind if I do.

• 3:20Kate Shaw?

  I know. Not right, not like there's anything important to resolve, although given what's likely to come down the pike, I don't think we should begrudge them.

• 3:29Melissa Murray?

  They can take years off. Three years, 30 years, right?

• 3:32Kate Shaw?

  We'll take it. Yep.

• 3:33Melissa Murray?

  It's good.

• 3:33Kate Shaw?

  Yeah.

• 3:33Melissa Murray?

  I wish they'd taken a break between 2023 and 2026.

• 3:37Kate Shaw?

  That would have been nice.

• 3:38Melissa Murray?

  Forget three weeks.

• 3:39Kate Shaw?

  In perpetuity. But a couple of weeks off from arguments at least is, you know, a tiny little gift in this otherwise cursed timeline. And we should say the justices may still get up to no good on the shadow docket, which does not respect the calendar or anything else. But the break between arguments does give us a little bit of time to cover some of the many other legal issues that are unfolding. And that's how we're going to spend the next few weeks, going a little bit deeper on some of the important issues we often have to go short on when the court is in session.

• 4:05Leah Litman?

  So this particular week, we are going to cover developments in Minnesota and the ICE occupation of that state. We will also talk about the Trump administration's destructive approach to foreign policy, where we will be joined by a very special first-time guest. And finally, we'll touch on some legal news.

• 4:22Melissa Murray?

  Let's talk about Minnesota ICE developments. Last episode, we talked about the tragic, terrible ICE shooting of Alex Preddy, an ICU nurse at a VA hospital who was observing ICE's presence in his neighborhood and filming ICE officers as they shoved other observers. The shooting happened a month into DHS and ICE's mass deployment and occupation of Minnesota, where, as Kate has said, the federal government has seemingly suspended large chunks of the Constitution that it finds inconvenient to its project of terrorizing and punishing communities that did not vote for the president.

• 4:58Kate Shaw?

  So there have been a few important developments since Melissa and Leah recorded the update to our last episode that we wanted to bring you up to speed on. They involve various developments in litigation, in political responses to the latest killing, and new frontiers in the weaponization of the Justice Department, specifically arrests for the crime of journalism. So the last episode noted some of the ongoing litigation related to the ICE occupation, and we're going to talk a little bit more about what the state of play with those cases is. There are actually four separate cases, and just so you have the lay of the land, we will tick through all of them. One is Minnesota versus Gnome, a case brought by the state of Minnesota that seeks to end Operation Metro Surge, which is what they are calling their occupation of Minneapolis. We will come back to that one in a second.

• 5:42Kate Shaw?

  Another is the police suit against federal officers that is trying to ensure that the federal government doesn't destroy or contaminate evidence, any more than they've already done, which is considerable, related to the ICE shooting of Alex Preddy. Minnesota law enforcement obtained a temporary initial order that prohibited the federal government from destroying evidence related to the Preddy case.

• 6:00Melissa Murray?

  There's also a separate case filed by the ACLU that seeks to bar ICE from stopping Latino and Somali residents without probable cause, or without using their apparent race and ethnicity as probable cause. And the fourth case is one brought by private citizens that sought to enjoin particular discreet ICE practices, like tear gassing or pepper spraying observers, or using non-lethal munitions on people observing or protesting. We're also going to come back to this one. So all of these cases are in different stages. So we'll focus on the ones that are a little bit further along and unfolding at more significant phases of litigation. So in the private citizens case, seeking to block the use of particular practices, the plaintiffs obtained a temporary restraining order, a TRO, that blocked the abusive use

• 6:45Melissa Murray?

  of tear gassing and pepper spraying practices. But then, the Eighth Circuit, a runner up for the world's worst circuit court, decided that it would stay that lower court ruling. And this occurred just days before Alex Preddy was murdered, as ICE agents pepper sprayed him and another observer. We should note that the Eighth Circuit is an intermediate appellate court that includes 12 active judges, but 11 of those active judges were appointed by Republican presidents.

• 7:14Kate Shaw?

  So the Eighth Circuit gave two separate grounds for why the district court's injunction was issued in error, and unsurprisingly, we take issue with aspects of both of those grounds. The Eighth Circuit first said that, quote, "The grant of relief to such a broad, uncertified class is just a universal injunction by another name."

• 7:31Melissa Murray?

  But wait, wait. I thought we weren't, you know, just going to give people no opportunity to seek redress in an aggregate fashion. If we weren't going to do universal injunctions, we were going to do this class certification thing. George Connelly told me it would be fine.

• 7:46Kate Shaw?

  In fact.

• 7:47Leah Litman?

  In fact, Trump versus Casa specifically said that while universal injunctions aren't permitted, class actions are. Universal injunctions are where courts block a policy from being applied to anyone. Class actions are where courts say, "You plaintiff can litigate this case on behalf of you and a class of people like you." And Casa said that courts could block policies from being applied to anyone who is part of that class.

• 8:08Melissa Murray?

  Now, as you know, we hate to say we told you so, but we did tell you so. One of our big concerns with the Casa decision was that while the court was trying to soothe everyone with its promises that their ruling on nationwide injunctions was no big deal because there were still class actions, we were like, uh, wait, what? The same court, the same Republican appointees that literally make their antipathy for class actions known? Every possible chance they get, and here we are. So if they won't certify a class action, well, that's not a real backstop to eliminating the universal injunction as they did in CASA. So we're basically stuck with a whole whack-a-mole, catch-me-if-you-can style of litigation.

• 8:52Melissa Murray?

  I believe Katanji Brown Jackson said we might get one of those, where the only people whose rights are protected are those who are in a position to mount their own litigation.

• 9:02Kate Shaw?

  Yeah. Now, the Eighth Circuit attempted to smooth over what seemed pretty clearly to be an effort to claw back this part of CASA by saying, well, it's really just that this particular case, quote, "has no chance of getting certified as a class and class certification, quote, "is not necessary to preserve our jurisdiction." Let's noodle over those reasons, too.

• 9:24Melissa Murray?

  So on why this class supposedly couldn't or wouldn't get certified, the A Circuit said that it watched the videos that were submitted to the district court and just kind of disagreed with the district court's characterization. Because deference to district courts, for who? Dumbos and dickheads.

• 9:40Leah Litman?

  Everything de novo, de novo, all the way down.

• 9:44Melissa Murray?

  Exactly. The A Circuit claimed that the videos show, quote, "observers and protesters engaging in a wide range of conduct, some of it peaceful, but much of it not," end quote. Unclear what they thought wasn't peaceful, like, was it the whistles? Because those do seem to be triggering a lot of MAGA heads. Like, words aren't violence, but whistles are? Got to keep up with the discourse. But more generally, a lot of different conduct might be part of observing ICE or protesting. And guess what? That still doesn't make it okay to pepper spray people for all of that varied conduct. So, yes, a class that is certified still makes sense. And on the idea that class certification isn't necessary to preserve the court's jurisdiction,

• 10:28Melissa Murray?

  my guys, no one ever suggested that it is a prerequisite to obtain class certification. The Supreme Court just mentioned that as a reason why they granted an extraordinary injunction pending appeal to a prospective class of people that wasn't even certified. That was in the Alien Enemies Act case where the government was trying to ship More people off to Seacott, that Salvadoran prison, would then claim that they could not bring any of those people back because Salvadoran prison. There, the court said that blocking the expulsions was necessary to preserve its jurisdiction. So the federal government couldn't hurry people off where courts couldn't review their claims and their expulsions. And that wasn't a prerequisite for getting a class action. So six, seven, I guess.

• 11:13Kate Shaw?

  My kids informed me they're no longer saying that.

• 11:18Melissa Murray?

  The Eighth Circuit is. The Eighth Circuit, yeah. Six, seven, eight. Oh.

• 11:25Kate Shaw?

  Every time I try, they're just like, no, please, please don't. So the Court of Appeals also felt that the injunction was too vague in its directions, not to, quote, retaliate against persons who are engaging in peaceful and unobstructive protest activity. Seems pretty clear to me, actually, but apparently not. It even thought that the provision of the injunction that singles out the use of, quote, "pepper spray" or similar non-lethal munitions and crowd dispersal tools was also too vague because it requires federal agents to predict what the district court would consider, quote, "peaceful and unobstructive protest activity."

• 11:59Melissa Murray?

  Again, my guys, it's not some big secret what peaceful and unobstructive protest activity is. It's not like the district court is sitting around here like, let's play hide the ball. They are telling you what they don't want you to do. No spraying tear gas directly into someone's face. No spraying pepper spray. I mean, it's like, the abuse is the problem. It's the abuse, stupid. The fact that ICE can't distinguish between a wine mom with a whistle, driving a car, and unlawful activity is not the plaintiff's fault here. Like, the district court got it, and maybe the Eighth Circuit could too. Verdict's still out on ICE.

• 12:40Melissa Murray?

  Nor is it the plaintiff's fault that ICE officers are pretty gratuitously and shamelessly and randomly tear gassing and pepper spraying people for different kinds of behavior. In those circumstances, you kind of have to write a very broadly worded injunction to get them to stop doing all of the things because you couldn't actually sit down and enumerate all of the insane things that they're actually going to get up to. That's the thing about unchecked government authorities. Sometimes you don't even know how unchecked they're going to be.

• 13:06Leah Litman?

  Right. And we also have some notes on the court's discussion of the stay factors, where the court expressed concern that the injunction's breadth and vagueness might, quote, "cause federal agents to hesitate in performing their lawful duties," end quote. Yes, the concern, ICE officers are too timid and too hesitant. This definitely checks. The Court of Appeals also questioned what possible need there was for an injunction, quote, "when all it says is to follow the law," end quote. Well, I don't know. Maybe the need is ICE isn't following the law. And we know they are saying they can enter homes without warrants, arrest people for being black or brown, or shoot people who fill them with phones. And yet you're telling me that telling them to obey the law is not needed and no big deal? It's just absurd.

• 13:49Leah Litman?

  And, you know, after they said this, lots of video has come out about subsequent ICE activities. So take this video that was recorded after the A Circuit declared there was no need for an injunction.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  I will tell you this, brother.

• 14:00Speaker 06

  What?

• 14:01Speaker 05

  You know, I will tell you this. You raise your voice, I raise your voice.

• 14:05Speaker 06

  If I raise my voice, you'll erase my-

• 14:07Speaker 05

  Exactly, yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 06

  Are you serious? You said, "If I raise my voice, you'll erase my voice?"

• 14:13Melissa Murray?

  Okay, that's the first case. Next, on to Minnesota versus Gnome, which is the case in which the state has asked the court to enjoin the mass deployment surge in Minnesota. The case is before the same judge that had issued the injunction that was at issue in the conversation we were just having about the Eighth Circuit, the one blocking specific ICE practices. And the judge in that case heard argument last week.

• 14:34Leah Litman?

  The theory that seemed to draw the most attention is that the federal government is basically coercing through extortion, the state holding an entire state at gunpoint with these roving ICE patrols in order to demand things from the state that the federal government isn't entitled to and couldn't demand on its own, like voter rolls or Medicaid data, or the state reversing its sanctuary city policy. Very mafioso, your money or your lifestyle, governance, you know, the presidency as a protection racket.

• 15:01Melissa Murray?

  Part of what seemed to raise questions at the hearing was the fact that the judge seemed to want the litigants to proffer cases that say that the federal government can't do this. But here's the thing, the federal government has never deployed masked armed untrained agents and told them that they're absolutely immune in order to punish a state for its political views and its policies. Now, to their credit, the advocate for the state and the judge acknowledged that they were in uncharted waters. The advocate said, "Look, it's unprecedented to have essentially an army essentially stir the pot with conduct that is pervasive and includes illegal violent conduct." And the judge says she appreciated

• 15:43Melissa Murray?

  the advocate's candor in that, quote, "It goes without saying that we are in shockingly unusual times." True.

• 15:51Kate Shaw?

  I mean, I think that that conundrum is so pervasive in the age of Trump 2.0, which is like, show me a case that says the president can't have a private paramilitary force funded by a Qatari bank account that terrorizes and murders American citizens. And like, no, there is no case that says that, because no one has ever tried.

• 16:10Melissa Murray?

  But you know what we do have? We have this.

• 16:12Kate Shaw?

  Good segue. What are you holding, Melissa?

• 16:16Melissa Murray?

  It's the annotated Constitution, A Guide for the Modern Reader by Melissa Murray.

• 16:21Kate Shaw?

  Right. So Melissa's new book and the document that it elaborates is an obstacle to much of what the federal government is doing here, whether or not there is a specific case that says that, right? That, I think, is critically important. So, back to this hearing. Afterwards, the court asked for additional briefing on our girl Pamela Jo Bondi's clearly extortionate demand that suggested that maybe DHS would remove ICE officers if Minnesota turned over its voter rolls, which a court said DOJ wasn't entitled to when DOJ tried to sue Minnesota for the same voter rolls in a separate proceeding. Bondi also said that part of the conditions for withdrawing ICE was that the state had to turn over its Medicaid and SNAP benefit information, which is definitely not related

• 17:03Kate Shaw?

  to immigration enforcement. And, just to add on, the state would also have to withdraw its sanctuary city policy, which the state is constitutionally entitled to have, and the president is not constitutionally allowed to order the state to change.

• 17:16Leah Litman?

  Gotta hand it to Pamela Jo. Once again, girl, you do not take notes on a motherfucking criminal conspiracy, much less put it on letterhead and send it off. You know, during the hearing, the judge focused on figuring out, you know, what this surge is supposedly doing, like what harms or policies it's designed to fix, because if it's not fixing anything, that means it's probably more likely part of an effort to extort a state through terror and occupation.

• 17:41Melissa Murray?

  Pamela Jo Bondi saw Harmeet Dhillon calling other conservatives hoes and said, you know what? Hold my beer. I too can be clown this administration as much as she can. And she's been engaged in even more antics that basically make fools of the federal government and DOJ. She's been posting on X, the mugshots of Minnesotans who were arrested for impeding ICE and the Customs and Border Patrol. And DOJ rules prohibit sharing a defendant's photo publicly. There are all kinds of things that relate to that sort of disclosure, like due process, again, also in the Constitution. But you know what DOJ policies are for, folks?

• 18:21Leah Litman?

  And due process.

• 18:23Melissa Murray?

  And due process. You know what that's for?

• 18:25Leah Litman?

  Hmm.

• 18:25Melissa Murray?

  Dummies, dunking on, all those things, right? Yeah. And plebes. So she's like, I don't care. I'm just doing it. Harmeet, your move.

• 18:35Kate Shaw?

  It wasn't even good sort of social media strategy. I mean, in addition to violating DOJ rules and policies and constitutional principles and particular provisions, the mugshots, each individual in a mugshot was paired with an HSI, I think it was Homeland Security Investigations, agent with their back to the camera.

• 18:54Melissa Murray?

  Yes.

• 18:54Kate Shaw?

  Just like, my overriding impression from these photos was, was these are like brave badasses, these protesters, and they are being

• 19:02Melissa Murray?

  Next to fucking cowards.

• 19:02Kate Shaw?

  Completely cowardly, like goons, who will not even show their faces. So I guess, nice work Pamela Jo Bondi.

• 19:10Leah Litman?

  After we recorded, the district court, on a Saturday, no less, issued the opinion in Minnesota's case challenging Operation Metro Surge and denied Minnesota's request for an injunction to block the ICE surge and mass deployment. A disappointing result, albeit kind of an expected one after the hearing. The court basically relied on a lack of analogous precedent, saying there just isn't any case where a court has concluded that the executive's mass deployment of law enforcement amounted to unconstitutional coercion or commandeering. The judge also said there would be line drawing difficulties in that theory about when does law enforcement become too much and excessive. And the judge said both of those considerations weighed against the preliminary injunction.

• 19:52Leah Litman?

  It's tough because the reality is, we are in an unprecedented situation of surges of casually lawless law enforcement that just crush a state, or at least try to. So as Kate said, of course, there isn't any case law. That doesn't make it legal. Now, the judge said that didn't necessarily rule out ruling for the state later on, but as in so many cases, these preliminary interim rulings about what is going to happen from now until whenever there's a final adjudication, that is the case, because that determines whether ICE remains in Minnesota. The district court also said that a preliminary injunction was inappropriate at this point because there was some competing evidence in the record. Specifically, the United States said they were doing the surge for legitimate reasons,

• 20:36Leah Litman?

  not extortion, Pamela Jo Bondi's letter notwithstanding. To me, the opinion kind of read both sad or disappointed and tired. I think it's important to know that the judge in this case, Minnesota's challenge to Operation Metro Surge, is the same judge that issued the opinion that blocked specific abusive ICE practices, only to see that opinion stayed on pretty dubious grounds by the A Circuit, as we just discussed. It did make me wonder if the outcome in the Minnesota case might have been different, or if the opinion might have been written differently, perhaps with more gestures to how catastrophic Metro Surge is for the people of Minnesota, if the A Circuit hadn't stayed that other opinion. So while this decision is not unexpected, it's also hugely disappointing.

• 21:19Leah Litman?

  The state and its people are undergoing just incredible hardship. This is really day in, day out, every aspect of people's lives, economically, businesses are burdened and often have to close, personally, physically, educationally, schools are shut down or go online. The courts aren't going to save us, but we have to keep looking for another way. Now, in happier court news, though, also on Saturday, a district judge in Texas ordered five-year-old Liam Conejo Ramos, the child in the blue hat who had been detained by ICE in Minnesota and sent to Texas, the judge ordered him and his father released, as the government is apparently going to pursue its case to deport them. The judge wrote, quote, "The case has its genesis in the ill-conceived and incompetently implemented

• 22:03Leah Litman?

  government pursuit of daily deportation quotas, apparently even if it requires traumatizing children," end quote. The opinion then cites some of Thomas Jefferson's grievances against the English king that led to the American Revolution, including, quote, "He has sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people," end quote. Hmm, sounds familiar. The court added, quote, "Civics lesson to the government, administrative warrants issued by the executive branch to itself, do not pass probable cause muster." That is called the fox guarding the hen house, end quote. The order concluded, quote, "With a judicial finger in the constitutional dike, it is so ordered, ordered that Liam and his father be released." In the judge's signature block, you know, usually pro forma, the judge included the viral photograph of

• 22:47Leah Litman?

  Liam in the blue hat, jacket, and backpack being held by an ICE officer, and cited two Bible verses, Matthew 19:14 and John 11:35. Just as FYI's, the first verse is, "But Jesus said, suffer little children, and forbid them not to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." The second verse is just Jesus wept. Representative Ilhan Omar and Representative Joaquin Castro said Liam and his father were released and are home, where they will be able to see a video that the New York Times compiled of Liam's classmates and the messages they sent to ICE. One, a girl wearing braids and barrettes is asked to talk about Liam, and to Liam, she includes a drawing of Liam's blue hat. Another child interviewed says, quote, "You're making people really sad because you're just taking them

• 23:32Leah Litman?

  away." While another says, quote, "I just hope everyone can have their loved ones next to them," end quote. Now, if that did not warm your heart, and if you really want to use the force of federal government to go after five-year-olds, good news for you, the Department of Justice is hiring. You can take notes on a criminal conspiracy with Pamela Jo. Because over on X, Chad Mizell said, quote, "If you are a lawyer, are interested in being an AUSA, that's an Assistant U.S. Attorney, and support President Trump, DM me." And Deputy White House Chief of Staff Stephen Miller retweeted that. Yes, federal prosecutors now being hired on X over DMs. One last quick update. After we recorded, The New York Times reported, "In the Department of Things I Did Not See,

• 24:14Leah Litman?

  Not See Coming," that Greg Bavino, the former face of these mass deployments and terror campaigns, mocked a Jewish attorney's faith on a call. The attorney is an Orthodox Jew who observes Shabbat. Bavino repeatedly used the term, quote, "chosen people" in a mocking way. And according to The New York Times, quote, "asked sarcastically whether Mr. Rosen understood that Orthodox Jewish criminals don't take weekends off," end quote. This is my shocked face. Also, if you're watching this on YouTube, yes, I will be making and bringing the shirts that I am wearing to our live shows in Los Angeles, which you can still buy a ticket to, and San Francisco. But now, back to our regularly recorded episode.

• 24:57Kate Shaw?

  So the response to the most recent ICE killing and abuses is very much still developing. Last week, ICE demanded entry into the Ecuadorian consulate in Minneapolis, which, you know, they cannot enter. The consulate is labeled on the door. The Atlantic broke the story that in the aftermath of Preddy's murder, Greg Bavino was removed from his post. That's great. He is evidently now out of Minnesota. And it seems pretty clear that none of the people in charge of DHS should continue to have their jobs after this outrage and travesty. But the departure of Greg Bavino is nowhere near enough.

• 25:31Leah Litman?

  Especially since he's been replaced by Tom Homan. Oh, yeah, we're about to get to Tom Homan. But I mean, how much do you think Bavino's departure is because he just looked short in photos and Donald Trump was like, he's not a manly enough man?

• 25:45Kate Shaw?

  He's not looking the part anymore.

• 25:47Leah Litman?

  Right. Yeah.

• 25:48Kate Shaw?

  Very possible.

• 25:49Leah Litman?

  Yeah. Honestly, that's what's going to save us from a Justice Emile Bové, is Trump think he's thinks he's just too fogo. Seriously.

• 25:57Melissa Murray?

  Trump doesn't like a short king.

• 25:58Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Melissa Murray?

  So there should be more demands and more fights for a meaningful response to ICE's plan to terrorize the entire state of Minnesota. Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, all those folks were in charge and that kind of makes them responsible, right? You broke it, you buy it. And maybe also unfit for any position of public authority. And this is why the midterm elections are so important and they know it because if you get even a tip on the House, if the House changes hands, then you can actually haul some of these folks in and have some hearings and like literally light a fire under this.

• 26:41Leah Litman?

  Yeah. And Democrats are negotiating now, like what kinds of things are necessary for them to agree to any funding deal. You know, it's possible they are just going to separate out, you know, ICE DHS funding and separately negotiate about that. But like, here's an idea, get ICE the fuck out of Minnesota and prohibit surges elsewhere. Like, do not let cosmetic or symbolic changes be the extent of it. Like, the people of Minnesota, the victims of these ICE abuses, like the people who are out there protesting and patrolling, they deserve a lot more.

• 27:09Kate Shaw?

  Yeah. And it's important to understand that despite, you know, the rhetoric from the federal

• 27:14Leah Litman?

  The tone shift.

• 27:16Kate Shaw?

  Which we've heard much about.

• 27:18Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Kate Shaw?

  Things have, it seems, very much not changed on the ground in Minnesota. So Bavino is out, but they have not withdrawn the, you know, ICE roving goon squads from the streets of Minnesota. As Melissa just alluded to, they have sent Tom Homan in, in some kind of weird PR campaign. Like, if that name sort of vaguely rings a bell, this is literally the architect of the family separation program in the first Trump administration. And also, what is the status of, oh, I don't even know whether, allegedly, the recipient, I guess, allegedly the recipient of a Kava, like the fast casual cuisine chain, Kava, bag with

• 28:00Kate Shaw?

  $50,000 in United States cash in it. Anyway, so that guy is the guy who's being sent in to, I guess, clean up. He gave a press conference announcing

• 28:10Leah Litman?

  That he was now the man in charge. And it made clear that the federal government is still extorting Minnesota through terror and violence and occupation. Here he is, saying, yes, this is very much still mob-style extortion.

• 28:23Speaker 06

  The withdrawal of law enforcement resources here is dependent upon cooperation. Like I said, one agent arrests one bad guy, bad guy in jail means less agents on the street. We have some agreements. We got more to talk about, how are we going to implement those agreements? But as we see that cooperation happen, then the redeployment will happen.

• 28:46Leah Litman?

  Here he is blaming the federal agents' killing of two civilians on the tone of Minnesota politicians.

• 28:53Speaker 06

  I begged for the last two months on TV for the rhetoric to stop. I said in March, if the rhetoric didn't stop, there's going to be bloodshed. And it has been. I wish I wasn't right.

• 29:10Leah Litman?

  Again, words aren't violence, except when they're uttered by Democrats. Then they're responsible for actual violence. And also, if you don't like people calling you the Gestapo, I mean, the people of Minnesota are out monitoring ICE with whistles and cars, not because Tim Walz called ICE Nazis. Like, they're doing it because they see how ICE is acting.

• 29:31Melissa Murray?

  You know what, Leah? Guns don't kill people. Tone kills people.

• 29:34Leah Litman?

  Right. And not to be outdone, I too have my own greatest hits of Tom Homan. Here he is referring to Minnesota as a theater, as in theater of war.

• 29:47Melissa Murray?

  Can you please be specific about how many ICE and how many border patrol agents

• 29:50Speaker 06

  are currently operating in the state?

• 29:54Speaker 06

  I think we're at three. About three thousand. There's been some rotations.

• 30:03Speaker 06

  Another thing I witnessed when I came here, I'll share this with you. I met with a lot of people, a lot of the agents. They've been in theater, some of these people have been in theater for eight months.

• 30:14Melissa Murray?

  Later, he describes how day after day, you can't eat in restaurants and people are blowing whistles at you. Yes, that's how the veterans described their time storming the beaches at Normandy. I could not sit down and have a bouillabaisse. People were blowing whistles at me as we landed on the beaches and it was just untenable.

• 30:34Leah Litman?

  Yeah, there were moms in minivans.

• 30:37Kate Shaw?

  And in case there were any lingering doubt, Trump has now expressly said that the federal government is not pulling back in Minnesota.

• 30:45Melissa Murray?

  Trump posted an absolutely disgusting statement about Alex Preddy on Truth Social that we are not going to repeat, but we will just say that it underscores the absolute callous disregard for life that is coming from the top. And that this president is not especially sorry. He's not pivoting and he's not pulling back or changing tune, although we should note that they have agreed to investigate Alex Preddy's killing. That is a bit of a walk back from where they were earlier in the week, although they have not announced who will be doing the investigation. It could just be DHS, which might be like letting the burglar investigate the burglary, but whatever.

• 31:27Melissa Murray?

  But for the most part, though, they are hewing to the same tune. And in the last week, ICE took into custody two more children from the same Columbia Heights school that five-year-old Liam Ramos attended. We talked about Liam and his father in our last episode. This time, the children apprehended were a second grader and a fifth grader whose mother was detained. Because there was no one else to care for them, the children had to be delivered to their detained mother. School officials said that the boys cried and asked to hold a nurse's hand when they were walked into the building. One person noted, quote, "She was holding both their hands. It's a lot. It's a lot of people in there with guns and weapons and formality and security and masks.

• 32:12Melissa Murray?

  And I don't know what else to say. Like, that is the reality. Children being walked into detention centers because their parents have been detained."

• 32:21Leah Litman?

  And while there doesn't seem to be, you know, a pullback of ICE in Minnesota, there has been some change in what's happening in Maine because there was some escalation and surge there, and there are now reports that the federal government is pulling back and withdrawing ICE. Why? One very real possibility is it's to help Susan Collins' reelection campaign, which only serves to underscore just how appalling and vindictive and illegal and what a scandal the deployment is in Minnesota. And it should remind everyone that the solution here can't be every person for themselves. Like, ICE deployments and surges have to end everywhere. It's not a win if they pull back in one place just to terrorize another place the next week.

• 32:58Kate Shaw?

  And one additional and really chilling piece of reporting has revealed that DHS/CBP apparently is maintaining a database of people arrested for interference with DHS or CBP officers. And incredibly disturbingly, Alex Preddy seems to have been on DHS or CBP's radar. He was in a confrontation with federal agents a week before his death, according to CNN. Friends say, and there's video footage of this encounter, that he was tackled by police officers while protesting their attempt to detain other individuals. The video that has emerged also shows Preddy spitting at and kicking ICE cars, or one ICE car, which raises an incredibly disturbing possibility

• 33:40Kate Shaw?

  that he was on some kind of target list. We know that they have been threatening and circling around the homes of people who are following and monitoring them from, you know, many, many dispatches from folks on the ground in Minnesota. It's also been captured on video and reported widely. And a memo sent earlier this month to DHS agents in Minneapolis told them to, quote, "capture all images, license plates, identifications, and general information on hotels, agitators, protesters, et cetera, so we can capture it all in one consolidated form."

• 34:13Leah Litman?

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• 34:57Leah Litman?

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• 35:40Leah Litman?

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• 35:49Leah Litman?

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• 37:15Leah Litman?

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• 37:47Melissa Murray?

  Some other things going on in Minnesota. The administration managed to piss the fuck out of the chief judge of the District of Minnesota, who also happens to be a former law clerk to the great man himself, Antonin Scalia. When you've lost the Scalia clerks, you've got to think about it. Chief Judge Shultz, who clerked for the great man when Scalia was on the D.C. Circuit, helped prepare Scalia for his SCOTUS confirmation hearings, and he then clerked for Scalia when he served on the Supreme Court. And Judge Shultz has decided that he's had enough of this BS the administration is shoving down the throats of the federal courts.

• 38:24Kate Shaw?

  So at the end of last week, he issued an order that told Todd Lyons, the acting director of ICE, that he had to appear personally before the judge and show cause why he should not be held in contempt of court. The order arose because the court had ordered the administration to release or provide a bond hearing to one of the people they had arrested and detained, and the administration just did not do that. The court wrote, quote, "This is one of dozens of court orders with which respondents have failed to comply in recent weeks. The court has been extremely patient, even though the federal government decided to send thousands of agents to Minnesota to detain aliens without making any provision for dealing with the hundreds of habeas petitions and other lawsuits that were sure to result. Unfortunately, though, the violations continue. The court's patience is at an end."

• 39:06Leah Litman?

  The hearing, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending how you look at it, never came to fruition because ICE got its act together and released the petitioner detainee. So in the order canceling the hearing, Judge Schultz wrote, quote, "Attached to this order is an appendix that identifies 96 court orders that ICE has violated in 74 cases. The extent of ICE's noncompliance is almost certainly substantially understated. ICE has likely violated more court orders in January 2026 than some federal agencies have violated in their entire existence. ICE is not a law unto itself."

• 39:38Melissa Murray?

  But that's not the only way that Crispy Gnome and her henchmen have managed to tick off one of the great man, Antonin Scalia's former law clerks, who is now a judge. They also gave him the middle finger when they attempted to give him the runaround in their effort to indict more people who participated in a demonstration at the St. Paul Church, where one of the pastors is the head of the St. Paul ICE field office. As we discussed in our last episode, DOJ failed to obtain arrest warrants from a magistrate judge. The judge rejected their applications on the ground that there wasn't probable cause that some of the people that they were trying to indict, including journalist Don Lemon and his videographer, had committed any crimes. More on that in a second.

• 40:21Leah Litman?

  As Judge Shilts detailed in a letter to the Eighth Circuit, the US Attorney notified him, apparently minutes after the magistrate judge's ruling, that they wanted a district judge to review the magistrate's determination. Just as an FYI, magistrate judges are judges who aren't appointed through Senate confirmation. They're actually selected by judges on the district and serve only terms and have more limited dockets. Anyways, Judge Shilts wrote that after speaking to all of the district judges and chief judges elsewhere in the Eighth Circuit, apparently the government has never asked a district court to review a magistrate judge's decision to deny an arrest warrant. Our friend Steve Vladek has a great write-up of this incident at One First Street. We're just going to give you some of the highlights or lowlights.

• 40:59Kate Shaw?

  But Chief Judge Shilts indulged the government and said he wanted to consult the rest of the court and wanted to see a brief. But then he had to postpone the meeting with the court because security concerns created by the presence of both the Vice President of the United States and the Attorney General of the United States in Minneapolis compelled him to delay.

• 41:15Leah Litman?

  And DOJ decided to go behind his back and file a sealed emergency petition for mandamus in the Eighth Circuit claiming the case presented a national security emergency. Shilts found out about this and he decided the administration had fucked around enough and it was time for people to find out about it. So he sent one letter where he was trying to guess what the mandamus petition was about because they never even served him with it. So, you know, he described why, you know, the people the government was trying to indict had not committed any crime. And the Eighth Circuit denied the petition for mandamus, but with a concurrence from one judge, a Trump appointee, who suggested there actually was probable cause to issue the arrest warrants or an arrest warrant, but still not enough to issue the writ of mandamus.

• 41:59Kate Shaw?

  That unfortunately was not the last word. On Friday morning, we learned that federal agents arrested journalist Don Lemon and Georgia Fort for their coverage of the protest at the St. Paul Church against ICE. This is another escalation and a terrifying one. They are arresting journalists who cover protests for covering protests.

• 42:17Kate Shaw?

  I mean, this feels like the next stage in the construction of a genuine police state. The last month have seen just an incredible ratcheting up of what was already a pretty terrifying set of assertions of unprecedented authorities by the president and the administration. And we are in, I think, a timeline that is the worst possible version of what a Trump 2.0 could look like. And we always knew there was a chance they would start going after journalists. And, you know, this is them breaking, I think, incredibly dangerous new ground.

• 42:45Leah Litman?

  Yeah. And even when these people are inevitably released, you know, whether that is because a judge says there isn't probable cause, whether that is because there isn't an indictment, whether that is because, you know, a judge directs the dismissal of the charges, it's clear this is done as an effort to just deter other journalists, right, to make them scared about undergoing, right, the hardships that, you know, Georgia and Don are undergoing right now.

• 43:09Kate Shaw?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Melissa Murray?

  Let's maybe end this on a lighter note. All of the sturm und drang surrounding Chief Judge Schultz has apparently led to a couple of meltdowns within the administration. So Tricia McLaughlin, a spokeswoman for DHS, dismissed the judge's concerns about ICE's violations. She characterized them as, quote, "a diatribe from this activist judge. Justice Scalia would like a word from heaven." And then she went on to say, quote, "We will not be deterred by activists either in the streets or on the bench." Okay. Then, not to be outdone, our Assistant Attorney General of Civil Rights

• 43:54Melissa Murray?

  and Civil Wrongs, Harmeet Dhillon, decided to have her own bite at the apple. Again, we've said in the past that Harmeet Dhillon is willing to bring the noise to fellow conservatives who have critiques of this administration. She is already denounced as hoes, conservative bros who don't think the administration is doing enough to advance its agenda. And last week, she decided that she was going to take her campaign to Ed Whalen, one of the most conservative, right-wing lawyers. Commentators in the biz. Wayland, like Chief Judge Schultz, is also a former law clerk to Justice Scalia. So he is no liberal squish.

• 44:37Melissa Murray?

  People in the administration and those who are friendly to the administration have all begun to insist that Judge Schultz should recuse from this case because he donated to Legal Services Association. So these are organizations that provide representation to individuals who are indigent, including in immigration matters. FYI, the rules do not require judges to accuse when they support legal aid organizations and the representation of individuals who can't afford lawyers. But that did not stop Harmeet Dhillon from weighing in. So we will recount the exchange for you.

• 45:14Leah Litman?

  So she retweeted a statement by Ed Wayland that suggested the judge didn't have to recuse by saying, Ed, do you have any clients? Do you actually practice law? In court, all caps, serious question.

• 45:24Melissa Murray?

  And then Ed responded, do you know what a non sequitur is? I can't even conceive how your question has any bearing on the official ethics advice that I quoted. To answer your question, I have spent the last two decades promoting originalism and textualism, sidebar, can confirm, working to transform the courts, also can confirm, and promoting blah, blah, blah. Show more, says Twitter.

• 45:49Leah Litman?

  To which Harmeet responds, I majored in ancient Greek and Latin at Dartmouth. Your pretentiousness merely underscores your utter lack of street cred.

• 45:58Melissa Murray?

  To which Wayland responded, are you drunk?

• 46:02Leah Litman?

  When she has me out in these streets cheering for Ed Wayland, what? Like, where are we? Who am I?

• 46:12Melissa Murray?

  The times, they are bleak.

• 46:15Kate Shaw?

  So with that roundup of the news from Minnesota, it is time to turn to Donald the Dove's peacemaking around the globe.

• 46:23Leah Litman?

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• 49:49Leah Litman?

  Now we will shift to the Trump administration's decision to maybe occupy the entire world. And for this conversation, we are delighted to be joined by Crooked Media's foreign policy expert and co-host of Pod Save the World, our producer, Michael Side Hustle, Tommy Vitor. Welcome to the show, Tommy.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Longtime listener, first time caller. Thank you for having me.

• 50:09Leah Litman?

  Well, we are very glad to have you today, Tommy. So let's start by replaying this little tidbit from an interview that President Trump did with the New York Times.

• 50:18Melissa Murray?

  Do you see any checks on your power on the world stage? Is there anything that could stop you if you wanted to?

• 50:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's one thing, my own morality, my own mind. It's the only thing that can stop. Not international law.

• 50:34Speaker 06

  I don't need international law.

• 50:36Leah Litman?

  So Tommy, just a question. How is this morality thing as a restraint on government working out for us?

• 50:44Speaker 01

  I think it's going great. I think it's moral to murder. People in boats in the Caribbean, I think it's moral to kidnap head to state. I think it's moral to bomb Nigeria on Christmas Day based on what seems to be totally made up evidence of a Christian genocide. I think it's moral to lock out all refugees except for white South Africans. I'll stop there, but I think it's going really well.

• 51:04Leah Litman?

  Okay, so that was uplifting. There has also been not just talk of morality, but also the so-called Don Row doctrine, which is honestly one of the dumbest and most pathetic wordplays I've ever encountered. Whoever came up with this and then decided to try to make it a thing is an enemy of the English language, but the doctrine as far as I can tell is billed as a 21st century update makeover of President James Monroe's designation of the Western Hemisphere as America's sphere of interest. Now, put aside the inconvenient fact that some of what you rattled off has been Trump meddling outside of this hemisphere, you know, including in Nigeria, but also Syria and Yemen. What does the world look like if the US owns, air quote, the Americas and leaves the rest

• 51:49Leah Litman?

  of the world to be carved up by other great powers?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very weird. Like, the original Monroe Doctrine was like, okay, you guys stay the hell out of the Western Hemisphere, we'll stay the hell out of Europe. And so what I would, my first reaction to like the Don Row Doctrine is the wordplay is horrendous, as you said. The second one, the second one is brass tacks, like it makes the United States weaker because we view ourselves as a global superpower. We have tens of thousands of troops in Germany, we've got troops in Italy and other parts of Europe. Does the Don Row Doctrine mean that we now take them home and we cede all the territory to the Russians to kind of just do whatever they want? Like, we've got 50,000 troops in Japan, 28,500 in South Korea. Do they come home? And that means we're no longer a Pacific power and we just cede that territory to China? Like, what does it mean for Taiwan?

• 52:34Speaker 01

  So there's a lot of questions, but it's just not clear to me like whether Trump is kind of giving up on being a Pacific superpower or not at this point.

• 52:43Leah Litman?

  So you're saying they maybe didn't think this all the way through?

• 52:45Kate Shaw?

  I'm sure Pete had Seth worked it all out.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Pete has gone through, like, apparently they just released a national defense strategy. They sent an email on a Friday night in the middle of that snow Storm, so that's how seriously they took this was.

• 52:56Melissa Murray?

  Okay, not over signal. Okay, that's.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  No, no, yeah.

• 52:59Kate Shaw?

  Okay, so leaving to the side some of the open questions and sort of zeroing in on this alleged, again scare quotes, sphere of influence. It is wild to us that Trump's invasion of Venezuela and kidnapping of its president, Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, almost feels like old news. That is, I guess, 2026.

• 53:19Melissa Murray?

  It was a month ago, Kate.

• 53:21Kate Shaw?

  It was an entirely different calendar year. So page has turned. But we did want to ask about, because we refuse to let this story go quietly into the rearview mirror. What message this Venezuela operation sends to strong men around the world, right? Does Trump's blatant disregard of national sovereignty legitimize Putin's war on Ukraine, emboldened China when it comes to Taiwan? And just in terms of kind of our ongoing involvement in Venezuela, this is something that you follow really closely. Like, am I right that there seems maybe to be a slush fund with seized oil revenue in a bank account in Qatar? What is that account? Who has like the access passwords? And is this just an easy way around Congress actually having the old power of the purse?

• 54:06Kate Shaw?

  Like, what is going on?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  I share all of your questions about this Qatari fund with like hundreds of millions, billions of dollars. And like, what, what is happening here? What, can the United States government just like open a Venmo? Is that what's happening?

• 54:22Melissa Murray?

  Well, first you take the Qatari jet and you fly the seized money to Qatar. Then you deposit it.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  It's so crazy. And Marco Rubio is at that hearing talking about it like his daughter was like, no, we'll figure out what to do with the other 200 billion. Everyone just chill out. It's like, it's nuts. To your actual question, though, like, yeah, I really wonder what it means for Xi Jinping in Taiwan. Like Xi Jinping is leading this gigantic military purge. He just fired the top general. Seems like maybe part of the reason is he doesn't feel like the PLA is getting ready fast enough to take Taiwan. So coming attraction. I think it, you know. Certainly, it could have emboldened Putin in Ukraine, though he's pretty emboldened there. But you could also imagine a scenario where there's some other leader in a country smaller that's sort of, you know, is around Russia, and Putin one day decides to pluck that individual up and replace him or her with a new prime minister or a president and say, what, you did it?

• 55:12Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  What's the problem? There's this crazy thing that happened in 2017 that no one ever talks about that I just like can't get my, can't get out of my head, which was Saad Hariri, the prime minister of Lebanon, took a trip to Saudi Arabia, and then all of a sudden he did a video feed where he announced that he was resigning, like clearly under duress. So Mohammed bin Salman just kidnapped the guy, and they made him script this thing. And so like, the French freaked out, like Emmanuel Macron got involved. I'm sure that Trump 1.0 kind of, you know, put some pressure on MBS to reverse this. And so he did. But like, what if the US government just doesn't care?

• 55:46Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  I don't think, I think that story ends very differently. So yeah, like, we're emboldened in kidnapping of heads of state. I think that's probably bad.

• 55:52Melissa Murray?

  Oh, my God. Not just kidnapping heads of state, actually taking territory. So that seems like a good place to talk about Greenland, which we haven't had the chance to talk about yet. Trump seems to have walked back his threat to use force to seize Greenland. He announced coming out of Davos that he'd agreed to a framework of a future deal, which sounds like concepts of a plan. But just how much damage has already been done to the NATO alliance, Tommy, by threatening another country in the alliance? Greenland is a semi-autonomous Danish territory. The Danes seem to be a little troubled by all of this. And Trump just seems to be like, eh, there's something rotten in the state of Denmark.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:37Melissa Murray?

  And no, I know he's never read Hamlet.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  No, he's never read anything. Yeah. I think, I think he did incalculable damage to NATO. I think they already thought we were unreliable, but this is probably the nail in the coffin. On top of it, I don't know if you guys caught this, like, he was doing an interview with Maria Bartiromo, kind of on the way out of Davos, and he said something like, NATO never really helped us out. They didn't actually, like, they may have deployed to Afghanistan, but they didn't really do any of the fighting, which is just like insanely wrong. You know, the Brits lost like 450 men and women in combat. I think the Danes per capita lost as many individuals as the US did. So like, he offended every veteran. Across the NATO alliance because it was just so gross.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  And so like, I don't think NATO goes away tomorrow because the United States is just so core to its existence. Like, I think we're like 60% of the funding. We provide the nuclear deterrence, the majority of the like logistical infrastructure that you need to fight a war, ISR surveillance and intelligence assets, missile defense. The top NATO commander is usually an American commander. There's like a command post in the US, like the second biggest one. So like, we are still integral to the broader enterprise. But I just worry that they're moving on and like, you know, Trump brags about how he's like pushing the Germans to spend more and more on defense. But we never really talk about whether that's a good idea when you also look at like the

• 58:01Speaker 01

  neo-Nazi AFD party is like maybe going to come to power and we're like pushing to re-militarize the Germans and the Japanese. So I don't know, the whole thing feels very unsettling.

• 58:12Leah Litman?

  So my anxiety levels are getting higher and higher and they were already quite high because of course, we are anxiously awaiting the court's ruling in Learning Resources versus Trump, which will decide whether Trump has the authority to impose tariffs using the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. Stay tuned for a bonus episode when we ever get that opinion. TikTok, guys. It seems like Trump's tariffs serve a few purposes, like some as punishment for not toeing the line in the case of Brazil, maybe as bargaining chips for his own personal enrichment, like in the case of Vietnam, and also a very expensive game of chicken with China. So as someone who tracks this stuff every week on your show, can you make any sense of Trump's trade strategy and where, if at all, do the penguins

• 58:57Leah Litman?

  fit into it?

• 58:58Speaker 01

  I love the penguins, those little monsters. Yeah, it's tariff first, ask questions later, right? I mean, I think you're referencing, what was it called? The herd in McDonald Islands, which is like, I think, a two-week boat ride from the further, furthest west point of Australia. And it's like glaciers and penguins and we just tariff them like 10%. The takeaways I've, so it's hard to like track the tariffs because so many get announced and then not applied. So you're like looking for this major economic impact, but it's less. So you wonder like, oh, were the economists wrong? It's like, actually, no, he's just not implementing these things. The main takeaway for me is they are a way for him to bully medium-sized and small-sized countries. A lot more tariffs get announced to get in.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  But again, like they can be devastating if you're Canada, for example, because 75% of Canadian exports go to the US. If we suddenly, you know, make them twice as expensive, like their economy could be crushed. They were devastating for, remember Lesotho, the tiny little landlocked country, like 2 million people in South Africa, they got a 50% tariff and it was like about to just just crush every industry they had. I think it got walked back to 10%. But again, it's like, what are we doing here? So, but that said, like when it comes to China, the tariffs are still very high and we're all paying the price for that. But they're not the like Liberation Day exorbitant level. Similar for Europe, like I think Trump backed down from the Greenland threat in part because Europe was preparing two things, like one, big tariffs, and then they have

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  this thing called the anti-coercion tool, which basically lets them cut an entire country off from the European market. And like, they have, it's like the US, China, and then the EU in terms of like economic heft that can, they could put a cost in place. So it's madness. It's just whatever it is madness.

• 1:00:48Leah Litman?

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• 1:02:17Leah Litman?

  On election night, we will all be feeling a lot of feelings. Do not spend it alone. Spend it with me, Alex Wagner, for Crooked Media Presents Live Election Results. We're going to have Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Tommy Vitor, Stacey Abrams, Dan Pfeiffer, Aaron Ryan, and many more special guests to be announced. And they're all going to help us make sense of what's happening as the election results roll in. So here's what you need to do. Subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube and tune in on Tuesday, November 3rd, at 9:00 PM Eastern, 6:00 PM Pacific for hot takes, catharsis, and as many results as we can possibly analyze.

• 1:03:04Kate Shaw?

  So you mentioned Canada in that answer. And sort of speaking of Canada and medium-sized countries, as you discussed at length on Pod Save the World, a couple of weeks ago, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney gave a pretty extraordinary and extraordinarily honest speech about global power. Leah listed it as one of her favorite things that week. So let's remind our listeners of it with a small clip. We knew the story of the international rules-based order was partially false, that the strongest would exempt themselves when convenient, that trade rules were enforced asymmetrically. And we knew that international law applied with varying rigor depending on the identity of the accused. For the victim. We participated in the rituals.

• 1:03:47Kate Shaw?

  And we largely avoided calling out the gaps between rhetoric and reality. This bargain no longer works. Let me be direct. We are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition. And you know, Carney said a lot of other things in that speech, including nostalgia is not a strategy. If you haven't listened to or read the speech in its entirety, it's just really packs a punch. So highly encourage our listeners to do that. But Tommy, as we look ahead to a time, because we like to, you know, trade in a degree of optimism and hope here. When we have a Democrat back in power. I mean, this is a big question, but like, what kind of new world order? And what is America's place in it that you hope to see?

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  That is a big, a good question. You know, Ben and I got in trouble on Pod Day of the World because initially we didn't focus on Carney's speech. We just excerpted a clip of it and a clip of Emmanuel Macron's speech. And I'd only listened to it. I hadn't watched it and I didn't realize he was wearing like blue blocker sunglasses. And I started giggling so hard. And you know, when you're giggling and your friend starts giggling and you know, you're not supposed to laugh and you're trying not to laugh. And we both just lost our shit and started crying and we got in trouble in the comments, but um.

• 1:04:56Kate Shaw?

  We're not mad at you guys.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  We came back to Carney. It was so funny. It was so funny. So I think a few things like one, you know, Trump, like obviously Elon Musk took ketamine and destroyed USAID. I think we need to think about building back a new version of what USAID looks like. Isn't just, you know, fighting for the same thing, but what is the smarter, more targeted version? I think we need to like reinvigorate all these international institutions and organizations that we're kind of letting die. Like NATO is one. Should fund the World Health Organization. That seems like a good idea. We should disband this stupid Board of Peace bullshit and recommit to working through the United Nations. You know, even when it's very inconvenient for us and also think about reforms to make it so.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Security Council isn't just a broken mess. And then, you know, I think whoever the next Secretary of State is, it's just going to be on the road. Like, try to do diplomatic spade work. Congress hopefully could pass some laws that limit the power of the executive that makes us seem maybe long term more reliable, but, you know, we've got a lot of work to do.

• 1:05:59Leah Litman?

  So finally, Tommy, something of a lightning round. Can you do us and our listeners a solid and put to bed once and for all Trump's constantly repeated claim that he has ended eight wars?

• 1:06:11Melissa Murray?

  And therefore deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Peace Prize.

• 1:06:16Leah Litman?

  We'll make it easy and like we'll list the alleged wars he has ended. And then you can tell us how the whole world peace thing is going on in these cases, if that works.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Deal.

• 1:06:26Leah Litman?

  Okay. Israel and Hamas.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  So I give him credit for getting that ceasefire done, but we should, folks should just know that like there's a ceasefire in name only at this point because the Gaza Health Ministry says, I think, 480 plus Palestinians have been killed by the IDF since the ceasefire went into place in October, or whenever it was last year, and Hamas is not disarmed. So it's like work in progress, I'd say.

• 1:06:48Leah Litman?

  Israel and Iran.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  So you might recall, we bombed them too.

• 1:06:53Melissa Murray?

  Not really peaceful, not peaceful.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Not so PC. And now Trump is, like, as we speak, it's Friday, like, what, noon Pacific? We are sending an armada, as Trump said, to the Middle East to potentially bomb them again. So another work in progress, I'd say.

• 1:07:09Leah Litman?

  Armenia and Azerbaijan.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yes, or Albania is what Trump sometimes says.

• 1:07:15Leah Litman?

  Okay.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  He likes to get it wrong.

• 1:07:16Melissa Murray?

  Very easy to confuse them.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, he just, you know, it's easy to confuse him. Two, those two countries fought for about 40 years over a disputed part of territory called the Nagorno-Karabakh. In August of 2025, they announced this peace agreement, I think at the White House or with Trump in some way. I think he gets some credit for putting the two sides together, but in reality, what happened is Azerbaijan pretty much routed the Armenian side, in part because they got a bunch of drones from the Turks and the Israelis. So sure, like, the war has ended, but it was because one side- The Democratic Republic of the Congo and Rwanda. Another one where Trump has held a bunch of events, like, good on him for caring. Like, I'm glad he sort of cares about these things, though in practice, they turn out to be like

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  ways to provide deals to extract mineral resources in the most disgusting way possible. But he held an event with leaders from the DRC in Rwanda. But the problem is, in this conflict, the primary driver is a group called the M23, which is like a rebel group that is not a party to the conversations, does not, do not accept the deal. And my understanding is despite this announcement in the paper of an agreement, like, there's fighting all the time, every day, indiscriminate killing of civilians. So it's just, there's not, there's no peace.

• 1:08:34Leah Litman?

  India and Pakistan.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Another, another longstanding beef here. This one, this one goes back a while.

• 1:08:41Leah Litman?

  And it didn't just go away?

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, we started like partition, I don't know. They've been fighting over the disputed Kashmir region since the 40s. Don't like each other, treated as mortal enemies in the press and by the militaries. There was a really bad clash last year because there was a terrorist attack in Kashmir that killed a bunch of Indian tourists. The Indian government blamed the Pakistanis, who historically have supported and kind of harbored terrorist groups like the Taliban or TTP and others. And so it was really scary. It got really fucking intense for a few days. There was, you know, intense bombing deep into their territories. Trump says he was instrumental in brokering a ceasefire. The Indian government says that is entirely bullshit. And the Pakistanis were like, yeah, sure, you did it. You'd like, you know, trying to do a favor to Trump.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  But it's kind of led to a rift between Trump and Modi in the US and India. But bigger picture, like, none of the underlying problems are resolved. So it's like, sure, they're not fighting now, but nothing is fixed for the future.

• 1:09:38Leah Litman?

  Cambodia and Thailand.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  It's another similar one, like longstanding border dispute that dates back to poorly drawn colonial boundaries. There's been sporadic fighting for, you know, a century. Last summer, again, there was a really bad kind of spate of fighting over, you know, it's like, there's like a cultural sites, like a temple that both sides claim. Trump tweeted about it. He put sanctions on both sides. He got them to sign a peace agreement. But my understanding is that as of this recording, like, there's still kind of sporadic. Sporadic clashes, and again, like, the underlying challenges are not resolved.

• 1:10:10Melissa Murray?

  Sporadic clashes don't seem conducive to peace, just gonna say.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  And that's the thing, like, they just love to spike the ball on the 50-yard line. It's like, you know, the peace prizes usually come from, you know, like, if you actually created Middle East peace, like, a Palestinian state, something that resolved the underlying political challenges that are drivers of conflict.

• 1:10:31Leah Litman?

  Okay, so last two, Egypt and Ethiopia, and Serbia and Kosovo.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Egypt and Ethiopia is my favorite one because there never was a war.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  There's, there's an ongoing diplomatic dispute.

• 1:10:44Melissa Murray?

  Really easy to broker peace when there's no war.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  You feel so crazy saying this to people? Because like, no, okay, so they have, they have a diplomatic dispute over a hydroelectric dam on the Nile River, which is important to both for water access and power production reasons. That still exists, but there was no, like, war to stop. He just says he prevented one. So it's like, pre-crime.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  So, and then Serbia and Kosovo, so, you know, you guys might recall lots of fighting in the Balkans in the 90s, breakup of the Soviet Union. Turns out, some complexities there after that. There's tensions, like Kosovo declared independence in 2008. Serb, the Serbs don't recognize it, but there hasn't been a war. This is another one, it's like, there wasn't a war for you to solve, sir. There was an economic agreement that Trump brokered between the two sides in 2020 that I don't, I don't even know if it's been implemented. So it's like, again, like, what are you talking about?

• 1:11:37Melissa Murray?

  That's kind of war to, to fix, a war that didn't exist.

• 1:11:41Leah Litman?

  He's so good, he prevented a war from ever happening.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  He's just that good. Crazy.

• 1:11:47Leah Litman?

  Amazing.

• 1:11:48Kate Shaw?

  So, I mean, the kind of fact download per minute ratio there was incredibly high, Tommy. So.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  Hey, we try here.

• 1:11:55Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, and I mean, look, we are really not foreign policy experts, and, you know, flooding the zone, as they have done on the domestic front, works. And so we've been very consumed with what they're doing domestically and haven't really attended to foreign policy. And so we are very, very grateful to you for taking the time to join us for this conversation. You are a real expert, and we and our listeners are grateful. So thank you so much for being with us.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me, thank you for. She's putting out a great show. I love, I especially like the episodes where I get most of it. Because I do feel like, I do feel like sometimes I'm in class and I'm just, I needed the, like, the 201 or the 101.

• 1:12:28Kate Shaw?

  We need to, we need to leave a few things just out of reach to keep people coming back.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  No, no, no. Yes.

• 1:12:33Kate Shaw?

  Give people something to work for.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Yes. I want to be smart.

• 1:12:36Kate Shaw?

  All right, well.

• 1:12:37Melissa Murray?

  Keep training. Keep training, Tommy.

• 1:12:39Kate Shaw?

  We so appreciate you listening and we would love to have you back another time. And while we have you, we have to ask you to tell us that you are going to have Melissa on the pod to discuss Meghan Markle and/or the British royal family at some point when it is your main topic of conversation, because.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Anytime.

• 1:12:53Melissa Murray?

  It's always a germane topic.

• 1:12:55Kate Shaw?

  When is it not, I suppose?

• 1:12:56Melissa Murray?

  When is it not a germane topic?

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Trump apologized for this NATO insult, I think because he got a call from the king. And my, my wonder is, what did the king say, "Hey, you know that your 250th birthday bullshit you want me to come to this summer? I ain't coming if you insult our dead troops." I sincerely think that happened. And also Prince Harry of Montecito weighed in too, so.

• 1:13:16Kate Shaw?

  All right, see, this is something you could have had Melissa shed some light on.

• 1:13:18Melissa Murray?

  I can talk to you all about this.

• 1:13:19Kate Shaw?

  All right, next time.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  I'll die, I'm sorry.

• 1:13:22Kate Shaw?

  And, and before we go, special thanks to our producer, Michael Goldsmith, for his help putting together this segment.

• 1:13:26Leah Litman?

  That was a great conversation, and now we just have a little bit more legal news to touch on. After our recording, the Department of Justice released another tranche of Epstein files, just as grotesque as the last, confirming, again, the extent to which elites in really all circles were just totally cool with Jeffrey Epstein and joked with him about girls and women, even after Epstein had pled guilty to solicitation and procuring a minor for prostitution. Some notables from this batch include Melania's close relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell. I understand this probably wasn't covered in Melania's documentary, though wouldn't know. Elon Musk lobbying for an invite to Epstein Island, asking, quote, "What day/night will be the wildest party on your island?" question, and telling Epstein

• 1:14:09Leah Litman?

  that the, quote, "ratio seemingly of girls and women to men wouldn't be a problem for Elon's then-wife." Also, Elon is tweeting through this. There is a ton of disturbing info in this latest batch. A draft indictment that included conspirators, co-conspirators unnamed, deeply disturbing accounts and allegations of sexual assault, further tips about Trump's relationship with Epstein, and alleged knowledge of Epstein's abusive girls, notes from witness interviews that mentioned Trump and Bannon, Epstein and a Giants co-owner emailing about setting up the Giants co-owner with women. Just truly grotesque stuff. Oh, and there is this SCOTUS hook. Trump's new nominee to be a governor of the Federal Reserve Board, Kevin Warsh, he's in the Epstein files.

• 1:14:53Leah Litman?

  I'm sure Trump will withdraw his nomination since Trump is so concerned about law abiding this in his governors of the Fed. But here's the legal news update we had in our regularly recorded episode.

• 1:15:04Melissa Murray?

  Last week, FBI agents executed a search warrant that targeted the Fulton County, Georgia Elections Department. Now, if you're thinking, hmm, wait, Fulton County Elections. That sounds familiar. It should. That's one of the places where during the 2020 election, the president attempted to gin up baseless claims of voter fraud to throw out the results of the 2020 election and remain in office. Georgia is the state where he asked the Republican Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, to find him a few extra thousand votes. All of the claims and allegations of voter fraud that the administration offered have been thoroughly debunked and refuted. That has to be said over and over and over again, apparently.

• 1:15:45Kate Shaw?

  And this is really very scary. It seems designed in part to sow more distrust in our election systems. This primes Trump's base to accept claims that he won the election, which could trigger more violence like January 6th. It also seems like an escalation in a forward looking, as opposed to just backward looking way. That is escalation of threats to tamper and interfere with the midterms and potentially the 2028 presidential election through abusive exercises of law enforcement authority. And maybe as a test run for interfering with elections in the midterms later this year. Either way, it's an enormous concern.

• 1:16:18Leah Litman?

  And apparently, the crackerjack who has been leading this is Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence and maybe possibly, I don't know. Some people say, oh, Russian asset. Anyway, she was given the task of leading the administration's efforts to reexamine the 2020 election and look for potential crimes. Another true story of failing up to fuck up our democracy.

• 1:16:41Melissa Murray?

  Just the tip.

• 1:16:43Leah Litman?

  And speaking of tips, this is your reminder that you can experience a strict scrutiny live show on the beautiful West Coast best coast. So our San Francisco show is already sold out, but you can still join us in Los Angeles on March 7th at the Palace Theater. The show is going to be amazing.

• 1:17:04Melissa Murray?

  Will be wild.

• 1:17:06Leah Litman?

  You may have heard that before.

• 1:17:09Leah Litman?

  We are crafting some very special merch, some special games. We've got some special guests in the works. It is going to be a very good time. So grab your tickets before they're gone at crooked.com/events. And now, before we go, our favorite things. If you haven't heard it, Bruce Springsteen released a song Streets of Minneapolis. I am not going to recite the lyrics because I will cry if I do. I feel like I'm just a raw nerve edge these days with all the news. I will just say if someone made a song about, or if Bruce Springsteen specifically, made a song about my dirty lies, like he did with Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller, I would yeet myself into the sun. Only I couldn't because

• 1:17:50Leah Litman?

  I would have already spontaneously combusted due to shame. A few other pieces, Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Homeland, Is War on America, Peace and Vanity Fair, as well as Adam Surrer's piece in The Atlantic, Minnesota Proved MAGA Wrong. Also wanted to shout out Mr. Cade Shaw, aka Chris Hayes, reporting from the Minnesota Ride Alongs. I just think it's super important for people to understand, like, the day to day in Minnesota and just how wild it is and how much it has upended people's lives.

• 1:18:19Kate Shaw?

  Yeah. I'm really glad he went for a couple of days. He's back now. He did the first show. He was out there outside, like, not really warmly dressed enough. And I honestly thought he was gonna lose a couple toes, which, you know, he would do if called upon, but luckily he seems pretty intact.

• 1:18:34Kate Shaw?

  But I'm glad you appreciated the coverage, Leah. Okay, let me shout out a few things. I thought Steve Vladeck and Barry Friedman in The Times had a really good piece about the potential for state prosecutions, even if the federal government is not going to do anything, although, as Melissa mentioned, there is evidently now a investigation that the federal government has agreed to open over the killing of Preddy. But, you know, state prosecutions remain something that should be on the table. My old colleague and friend Alex Reinert was on Dolly Lithwick's show, Amicus, talking about bivins and qualified immunity, and it was a great conversation that I really recommend to people. Also, Melissa and I, sorry, Leah, I wish you were, you had been there, but Melissa and I had an awesome conversation with Jonathan Van Ness, JVN, on the Getting Better podcast,

• 1:19:17Kate Shaw?

  and JVN gave us a bunch of awesome hair care products. Leah, I still need to send you yours, but that's like awesome dry shampoo and various kinds of creams and stuff. And this week, I actually had another, I think, really good escapist read. I read Migrations by Charlotte McConaghy, who's the same author of Wild Dark Shore, which, Leah, you recommended to me. It's a book that's similar in lots of ways, and I also really enjoyed so, Migrations, highly recommend it.

• 1:19:40Melissa Murray?

  Okay, I'm just telling you right now that I'm not doing anything highbrow until all this stuff is resolved in Minnesota, until it stops being in single-digit temperatures in New York City, and until they start clearing the snow, so I don't have to vault over mountains of ice as I try to cross the street. So, there's nothing highbrow in this. I'm not reading newspapers, I'm not reading The Atlantic, I'm not reading ProPublica, I'm just looking at trash on TV and reading for fun. So, here are my favorite things, and they include his and hers on Netflix. I love Tessa Thompson, I love Jon Bernthal, and I love them together as a married couple,

• 1:20:21Melissa Murray?

  and trying to get through a difficult patch in their marriage while also solving a crime. What could be better? Amazing. I'm also very excited for something I have not yet seen, but I'm very much anticipated, and that is the America's Next Top Model documentary that is going to be coming out on Netflix. And in honor of MLK Day, which was a few weeks back, I started reading King of the North, Martin Luther King Jr.'s Life of Struggle Outside of the South by Jean Theo Harris, and I just finished it. It's absolutely fantastic, it's really great. Again, locates MLK in the broader struggle for social justice, which includes economic justice as well. I guess that was a little highbrow.

• 1:21:04Leah Litman?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:21:05Melissa Murray?

  I mean, I'm just like, I don't want, I'm so tired of newspapers at this point. I just, I can't.

• 1:21:10Leah Litman?

  It's fair.

• 1:21:12Kate Shaw?

  Strict Scrutiny is a Crooked Media production, hosted and executive produced by Leah Lipman, Melissa Murray, and me, Kate Shaw. Our senior producer and editor is Melody Rauw. Michael Goldsmith is our producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Music by Eddie Cooper. Production support from Katie Long and Adrian Hill. Matt DeGroot is our head of production. Thanks to our video team, Ben Heathcote and Johanna Case. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube at Strict Scrutiny Podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

• 1:21:54Leah Litman?

  On election night, we will all be feeling a lot of feelings. Do not spend it alone. Spend it with me, Alex Wagner, for Crooked Media Presents Live Election Results. We're going to have Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Tommy Vietor, Stacey Abrams, Dan Pfeiffer, Aaron Ryan, and many more special guests to be announced. And they're all going to help us make sense of what's happening as the election results roll in. So here's what you need to do. Subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube and tune in on Tuesday, November 3rd at 9:00 PM Eastern, 6:00 PM Pacific for hot takes, catharsis, and as many results as we can possibly analyze.

• 1:22:34Leah Litman?

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• 1:23:19Leah Litman?

  Stock up on DiGiorno over the weekend so when Monday night rolls around, the only thing you sweat is the game. Shop now at the link in the episode description. It's not delivery, it's DiGiorno.