204. “We make $226K—but our kids think we’re broke”

Lisa (37) and Marcus (38) have been married for 14 years, raising four kids and building a life together—but when it comes to money, they couldn’t be further apart. Lisa homeschools their kids and dreams of more family travel time full of Rich Life experiences. Marcus shuts down in financial conversations, overwhelmed by anxiety and self-doubt—even though he’s a professional accountant. In today’s episode, live from Washington, D. C., they uncover a painful dynamic: Lisa is left holding the financial burden alone, while Marcus avoids it entirely. Can they change their money story and finally start acting as a team? This episode is brought to you by: Upwork | Visit https://Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at https://drinklmnt.com/RAMIT Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to https://masterclass.com/ramit Trust & Will | Protect what matters most in minutes at https://trustandwill.com/ramit and get 20% off plus free shipping. Links mentioned in this episode • Please vote for Money For Couples in the 2025 Webby Awards • Order my new book: Money for Couples Connect with Ramit • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:47Ramit Sethi?

  I know how Ramit feels about trucks. I hope he can forgive me. What do you do for a living that requires this truck?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  I'm an accountant.

• 2:55Ramit Sethi?

  What are you towing, like calculators?

• 2:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:57Ramit Sethi?

  You don't drive it anywhere?

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Tune from work.

• 3:00Ramit Sethi?

  America is so weird.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  But Marcus, but Marcus, but Marcus, hello. Hey, Marcus, want to get a truck? Hey.

• 3:05Ramit Sethi?

  Is that common in your relationship?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 3:08Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Everything.

• 3:09Ramit Sethi?

  So how do we go about getting that truck?

• 3:13Speaker 02

  I grew up in Virginia.

• 3:15Ramit Sethi?

  I love DC, but I don't know the stereotypes about Virginia.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Virginia's for lovers.

• 3:21Ramit Sethi?

  One of the biggest surprises in today's conversation is how many different versions of this couple I've met. The way they describe their finances is different in their application, in our conversation, and in their follow-up. It's actually shocking how different they are. And that is why I want you to hear this episode. See if you can spot these moments. But trust me, you're going to be surprised by what we uncover in their psychology. Now, I got the chance to speak with them on my live tour for my new book, Money for Couples. And I have to say, I love your feedback on my recent episodes. I've actually made some direct changes because of it, like moving our CSP to the beginning of each episode. With other feedback, I'm thinking about it. So keep it coming.

• 4:07Ramit Sethi?

  You don't have to agree with every change we make, but we are going to constantly improve and try new things. Now, let's take a look at their CSP, which breaks down their net worth, income, and spending. And if you want to use the same template, you can grab it at I W T dot com slash CSP.

• 4:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, we have Lisa and Marcus. Lisa is 37 years old. She's a homeschooling, stay-at-home mom.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  And I feel like we're demonstrating this really uncomfortable dynamic that like I really, I don't want them to grow up in this environment where it's like the man goes and he gets the money and then the woman's sitting at home crying and caring on about how she wants to be able to spend it.

• 4:55Ramit Sethi?

  Marcus is 39 years old and he is an accountant.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  I'm an accountant. I'm dull and boring and I don't like spending money and that stereotypical accountant at your office that is just a buzzkill, that's me with our personal finances.

• 5:11Ramit Sethi?

  Even though Marcus works with numbers daily as an accountant, he cannot bring himself to have meaningful conversations with Lisa around money.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  I do struggle with making decisions on spending money, so my talks do get unnecessarily tough. I struggle with pulling the trigger on spending money or even talking about spending money.

• 5:32Ramit Sethi?

  She wants to dream, she wants to get excited, but Marcus shuts down and tells Lisa, "Do whatever you want with the money."

• 5:38Speaker 02

  I really have this desire to go do something new, see new places. I feel like we should be able to do it. I guess we're getting hung up on the execution. Maybe not even the execution. We're not even able to like talk it through.

• 5:54Ramit Sethi?

  Marcus's salary doubled in the last three years. They started with $60,000 of credit card debt. They've paid off 20K. They have a rental property and some other stuff. Let's take a look. Assets are almost $600,000. Investments $450,000. Savings $3,600 and debt at $305,000. All right. Total net worth $747,000. Gross monthly income of $18,850 per month. That's a very healthy income. Let's look at their fixed costs. 51%. Great, no comments. Debt payment at 573 and I love this. They have a note that says, "Final payment, April 2026."

• 6:37Ramit Sethi?

  Love that. That means they know their debt payoff date. That is very rare. Less than 5% of people know that. Well done. Investments, what? Are at zero? How can investments be at $0 per month but they have $450,000 of investments? What the hell? Savings...

• 6:55Ramit Sethi?

  They put $1,000 a month for home maintenance, $160 a month for gifts, and $1,475 a month for an emergency fund. I have to say, I'm a little concerned about this emergency fund. Right now, they have two weeks of savings. If something went wrong, it looks like he is the sole earner in this relationship. If he lost his job, two weeks, and they are in real trouble, especially with four kids. That's a huge single-point of failure. All right, let's move along to guilt-free spending at 29%. That's $3,856 a month. One thing I'll say is, this is a very well-organized CSP. I love what they did. They took some of my template, they adapted it a little bit, they clarified it.

• 7:37Ramit Sethi?

  It's very simple, it's very clean, it tells me a lot about who they are. Looking forward to meeting them.

• 7:46Ramit Sethi?

  Please get on your feet and give me a huge welcome for Lisa and Marcus. All right.

• 7:57Ramit Sethi?

  How you doing? Welcome, welcome, welcome. Hey, all right. How's it going?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Good. This is surreal.

• 8:06Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  In a good way, yes.

• 8:08Ramit Sethi?

  All right, well, welcome. You both look great, thank you for being here.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Thank you for having us.

• 8:12Ramit Sethi?

  Who decided to apply and for you to come out here? You did, okay.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that was me.

• 8:20Ramit Sethi?

  Is that common in your relationship? Oh, yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely, everything.

• 8:23Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:25Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And Lisa, you wrote in your application, "I have a couple goals that feel lofty, and my husband feels completely overwhelmed and checks out when I mention them. I'll go ahead and own that it's a truck and a camper."

• 8:47Ramit Sethi?

  I know how Ramit feels about trucks. I hope he can forgive me. Is this a joke or is this serious?

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Well, it's not just a camper. We also have a boat and a lot of other things to tow.

• 8:57Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, really?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:58Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, God.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  It's just a camper.

• 9:00Ramit Sethi?

  So you have a camper for real?

• 9:01Speaker 02

  For real, no.

• 9:02Ramit Sethi?

  And you really wanna get a truck?

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. All right, which truck is it? What model? Tell it for all of us.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  So, I don't know because we don't have these conversations.

• 9:12Ramit Sethi?

  Oh.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  So, I have an idea of what I'd like to pick out, but I'm also...

• 9:18Ramit Sethi?

  What happens when you talk about money? Or this truck?

• 9:21Speaker 02

  This truck?

• 9:21Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  We just go back and forth for a little bit, but it gets pretty heated and tense. And then it never gets solved.

• 9:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I guess let me first understand. You have a camper.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  We don't.

• 9:37Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you wanna get a truck?

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Okay, so, we used to tow it with an SUV that we owned. And then his company gave him a work vehicle. And he works for a construction company, so it was a truck. And now that we have the work vehicle, we did sell the SUV we were using. And now I am limited to when I can go based on his schedule.

• 10:06Ramit Sethi?

  So, to you, the truck...

• 10:09Speaker 02

  It would be freedom. It would mean I can... I am just desperate to travel, to see new things, to meet new people. So, yes, that truck for me represents being able to truly just go and experience things.

• 10:25Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and now you can't because his vehicle is a work vehicle?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  It is. So, I wouldn't be allowed to drive it without him.

• 10:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, um, got it. And Marcus, what do you do for a living that requires this work truck? I'm an accountant. What?

• 10:44Ramit Sethi?

  What are you towing? Like calculators? Is that real? Oh, yeah. What is that in your hand? That is an abacus. Because you're an accountant? Of course. Okay, this is a great photo, by the way. Amazing. Wow, okay. So this is your work vehicle? Yes. Why? Seriously, why do you have a truck as an accountant? Um, it was part of a salary negotiation. Who negotiated the truck, though? Uh, that was my boss. Oh, okay. He... What?

• 11:16Speaker 02

  I think his boss has some nostalgia for us because his boss also has four kids and used to camp with them. And we have some other similarities with his boss. So I think his boss kind of...

• 11:28Ramit Sethi?

  So your boss was like, "Let me give you a $60,000 truck as part of your salary negotiation." Yep. And you said yes? How much is that?

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Probably closer to 80.

• 11:38Ramit Sethi?

  Holy [BLEEP]. Oh, my god, I'm so out of touch.

• 11:44Ramit Sethi?

  That's an $80,000 truck? Yep. And like, you drive it on concrete to go to client sites? Yeah. You don't drive it anywhere? Doing from work. Okay. Computer. Okay. America is so weird.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Anything is possible.

• 12:01Ramit Sethi?

  Do you... Am I the only one who thinks this is weird? Okay. Please, all right. All right. So all right, so you have this truck. You can't use it. So you want a truck.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  I do.

• 12:12Ramit Sethi?

  And, um, and here we are.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Here we are.

• 12:16Ramit Sethi?

  Here we are. Okay. Can you show me what it looks like when the two of you talk about money?

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Demonstrate it right now?

• 12:23Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, like, when was the last time that you really talked about money?

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, we've been talking about it a lot since we've been picked to come on the show.

• 12:32Ramit Sethi?

  Aside from this.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  But I'd say before... I think it was the truck conversation that was...

• 12:41Ramit Sethi?

  Really sparked it.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:42Ramit Sethi?

  Let's just, um, let's go back in time. And I'd love to hear how that conversation went.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Um, like, really how it went?

• 12:48Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, really.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Ugh, Marcus. I'm so depressed. We're back home. I had so much fun while we were camping. And now I'm in this house with four kids. I feel trapped. It's monotonous. I need to go. I want to do something different.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  But like, but how are we gonna do this? Like, I need a truck to be able to take the camper.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  I could just go get a loan.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Oh, oh my god, no. No, no, no, we're not getting a loan. That's not what we're doing. I want to come up with a plan that we can purchase a truck and...

• 13:28Speaker 01

  And then the conversation ends.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  And then it just keeps going like this, where I'm like, "But Marcus, but Marcus, but Marcus. Hello, hey Marcus, wanna get a truck? Hey, what else could we do? Well, maybe we could, if you don't wanna get the truck..." Oh, this is where this went. I was like, "Okay, why don't we move? We could move."

• 13:46Ramit Sethi?

  Can I ask each of you, in a word, how does a conversation like that feel to you?

• 13:54Speaker 02

  (bleep) frustrating.

• 13:56Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay. Why? Why does it feel frustrating to you?

• 14:01Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel like I'm trying to talk about something fun and exciting. And so, honestly, when he's not engaging in those conversations, and I guess I said the word frustrating, and I'm not really describing feeling frustrated, it, I feel like he's not hearing what I want to do and how I value, like, things I value and how I wanna spend my time. So I maybe feel neglected.

• 14:23Ramit Sethi?

  You feel neglected? Okay. And how about you, Marcus? You said (bleep). Why?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  'Cause it kinda feels inadequate, that I can't just go get a truck.

• 14:32Ramit Sethi?

  It, it being what?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Our finances.

• 14:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, our fi... Do you mean you feel inadequate?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:40Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. You feel inadequate because as the sole earner, is that correct, in the relationship? That you cannot simply say, "Here's the money, go get whatever you want."

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:52Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, I noticed that, even in the role play, that she kind of had a lot of things that she wanted to talk about, and your response was, "Okay."

• 15:03Ramit Sethi?

  Is that pretty accurate?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:05Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And then, so the more you avoid, what is her response to that?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Uh, the more intense she gets?

• 15:13Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, she chases you. It's really common, like, one of the most common dynamics. Okay, um, does it work? No. No, it doesn't work. It never works! But we all keep doing it. Why do you think the dynamic persists? Why does it persist?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Oh, because I'm a classic avoider.

• 15:32Ramit Sethi?

  I think... Why are you an avoider?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Mainly because money was never talked about growing up. It's one of those things, so it's weird to talk about it.

• 15:42Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm. Family never talked about it?

• 15:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:45Ramit Sethi?

  Was the dad, your dad, the sole earner in your family?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  First half, yeah. Second half, my mom started working when I got older.

• 15:52Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm, okay. And nobody talked about money to the kids? Okay, interesting. When Lisa says, "I want a truck", what do you hear?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  "Go get a truck."

• 16:07Ramit Sethi?

  Meaning, she says, "I want a truck", and you hear, "She's telling you to go get a truck."

• 16:13Speaker 01

  More or less, yeah.

• 16:15Ramit Sethi?

  I'm jumping in here because Lisa and Marcus are downplaying the tension in their financial conversations. Now, I get it, it's scary to be onstage in front of tons of people, but I want you to watch this clip from their pre-interview with my producer, where they talk about this very issue.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  Planning and executing is where I really start to get hung up and anxious and never finish the process. I get hung up on how do we even, where do we even begin to go about doing this?

• 16:48Speaker 02

  I got very tense and Marcus got frustrated and told me that he felt I was being ungrateful and he said that he doesn't feel like I will ever be satisfied. We're not even able to, like, talk it through.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Anytime something like that comes up, yeah, I tend to struggle with the execution there or I get anxious, like, oh, shoot, do I need to go pick up a second job or something to take care of this? Or like, how do we go about this?

• 17:17Ramit Sethi?

  How they talk to each other behind closed doors. Is really revealing. Here's what stands out to me. There's a lot of unspoken expectations, maybe even resentment. Marcus feels inadequate. He believes Lisa is ungrateful for what he provides. Lisa feels neglected and alone. Think of the weight of these words. These are really heavy emotions and none of them are positive. How you talk about money is often a direct reflection of communication in your relationship. If you are always speaking about it negatively, it's probably a good indicator that there are other parts of your relationship that aren't being communicated about positively either.

• 18:02Ramit Sethi?

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• 19:28Ramit Sethi?

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• 21:02Speaker 02

  If we were to go get a truck right now, we'd be taking on a very big loan, and I don't want to do that. So that is not what I want. I want to have a plan that we agree upon and we talk through to figure out how we want to purchase a truck.

• 21:16Ramit Sethi?

  That's kind of makes sense, because I was a little confused when, in the role play, Lisa, you said, "How can we get this truck?" And your response was, "I can go get a big loan." I didn't understand where that loan thing came from, but now I understand. Your interpretation is she's telling you to go get a truck, and the only way you can effectively get a truck is with a big loan. Right. But then Lisa, you say you don't want that.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 21:44Ramit Sethi?

  So what do you, what do you want?

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Um, I would, even how you ask, what kind of truck do you want? I don't know the answer to that. So I would love to be able to get on the same page about what kind of truck do we want? And then start to figure out, okay, what is the cost of that? What is the likelihood we're gonna be able to find that used, pre-owned?

• 22:10Ramit Sethi?

  When she says, "I want a truck," you don't say, "What kind?" Or do you ask her why? Oh, I know why. Do you ask her? She makes it very clear. Do you ask her? Do I ask her? Yeah. No. Do you ask her any questions about money? Not really, no. What does that feel like, Lisa?

• 22:33Speaker 02

  I mean, that feels accurate. It's not a feeling.

• 22:37Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, tell me the feeling.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, I don't know, I guess I feel validated at least hearing that.

• 22:46Ramit Sethi?

  Like, if my wife didn't ask me how my work is going? Or how I feel about XYZ? I don't know, I'm not sure I would answer in the same way. Does it feel lonely?

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, yeah, I do, like, I feel neglected, I feel lonely, I feel like he doesn't fully, I don't feel like he's interested in things that I value. Or like, even if not interested, just can't see the value in what I'm asking for, maybe.

• 23:19Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. You, you said it twice. You said the truck represents freedom. To me, it seems, you know, and then you tell me the additional clues, you're, you homeschool four kids. That's a lot. That's a lot to take on. And you said, "Sometimes I just wanna go away. I wanna see other parts, meet other people." I can, I can only imagine being at home with four kids, homeschooling all the time. It helps me understand why sometimes you just wanna go somewhere.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Yes. And sometimes it's also really nice to just watch them beat a tree and like throw dirt around and not destroy my house.

• 24:00Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, yeah. Marcus, does any of this resonate with you?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:04Ramit Sethi?

  What do you hear when you hear your wife talking about a truck and freedom?

• 24:10Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, four kids at home, it's a lot. Um, kinda to break up the monotony, to enjoy things in life.

• 24:17Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Is what I'm hearing.

• 24:19Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  And I feel like they've learned a lot when we've gone and traveled places and seen new things.

• 24:26Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, hold that thought. I'm sure they have, but that's not where I wanna go.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 24:33Ramit Sethi?

  I wanna talk about you, Marcus. It's interesting, by the way, that you really jumped in to help him avoid this uncomfortable conversation.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that happens a lot.

• 24:43Ramit Sethi?

  Like, when was the last time you guys talked about feelings about money?

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Never. Do people do that?

• 24:54Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Feelings.

• 24:55Ramit Sethi?

  That's a good answer. That's honest, because the truth is, most of us don't. We do feel stuff about money. We feel lonely. We feel behind. Um, sometimes we feel ashamed or even stupid, but we don't usually say that. We say, "I want a truck," or "I can take out a loan." And so we stay up here. We stay at the surface when the truth is down here.

• 25:28Ramit Sethi?

  That's in how we feel, that's in how we were raised, that's in how we talk about money with each other. What is the current approach you both take to talking about money? Lisa, you bring it up, I know that.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:40Ramit Sethi?

  And then? Marcus?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, after filling out the CSP, it really opened my eyes. Because I kinda felt like handcuffed, as far as money went.

• 25:51Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Honestly, because I wasn't paying attention to it.

• 25:55Ramit Sethi?

  Like, and we should just acknowledge you're an accountant, but that does not necessarily mean you're an expert at managing personal finances.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:07Ramit Sethi?

  They're totally separate.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  I'm in misconception, yeah.

• 26:10Ramit Sethi?

  It's like, it's like, you know, someone saying, "I want to become a bodybuilder. Let me ask a yoga instructor how to do it." They're just, but to the outside person, they're both in fitness, but they're actually quite distinct. So it makes sense to me, you're an accountant, you're not necessarily an expert at personal finances, that's fine.

• 26:30Ramit Sethi?

  But Lisa, when you bring up money, Marcus, what happens?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Oh, I just hunker down and wait for the storm to roll over, more or less.

• 26:39Ramit Sethi?

  But what's the storm that you're referring to?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Her storm?

• 26:44Ramit Sethi?

  The storm that she wants something, she's gonna be asking for something, and that means that I... Finish the sentence for me.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  I have no idea what I'm doing and I get overwhelmed and just kinda avoid it.

• 26:59Ramit Sethi?

  How long have you all been married?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  14 years.

• 27:03Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, alright, let's give it up. 14 years, okay, amazing, four kids. Okay.

• 27:12Ramit Sethi?

  But you made it, you made it 14 years without really talking about feelings around money. Okay.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Not feelings, no.

• 27:22Ramit Sethi?

  And what about the actual day-to-day management of money? How does that work in your relationship?

• 27:28Ramit Sethi?

  Day-to-day, month-to-month, that kinda thing?

• 27:32Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, it's really quiet up here.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 27:35Ramit Sethi?

  What the... How do, how do you do it? Like, how do bills get paid?

• 27:38Speaker 02

  He has the bills that are automated and he takes care of those. And I'm the one that's like, more managing...

• 27:46Speaker 01

  The day-to-day.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What about like, investments and...

• 27:52Ramit Sethi?

  You do that, okay. And then like, "Hey, do you want to take a trip this year or something? The kids are gonna need this activity." Where does that come up?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  That's, um, when, or does...

• 28:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 28:05Ramit Sethi?

  Alright, does it work?

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, well...

• 28:08Speaker 01

  We've made it this far, but it's not fun.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's, yeah.

• 28:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  And I can see areas... No, it's not working because I need to be able to talk with him and spitball ideas and have somebody that can be like, "Oh, that sounds great." Or like, "Oh, [bleep], that's terrible, no."

• 28:27Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you need that?

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Um, I guess I shouldn't say I need that, but like, I would like his opinion. I don't...

• 28:33Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on, why did you just minimize what you said you need? You said, "I need that," and I said, "Why do you need that?" You said, "I guess I don't need that."

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 28:43Ramit Sethi?

  It's okay to need a partner. A lot of time, we tend to downplay our needs. We prioritize the needs of our partner, or our boss, or our kids. This is especially true for women. We've heard it many times on this podcast. But this is also a dangerous habit that seeps into so many parts of our lives. Not being able to communicate about what you want. Not being able to prioritize your needs sometimes. It's dangerous. It's like living in a house with a cracked foundation. If you ignore that crack for long enough, the entire structure becomes unstable. And the same thing happens when we ignore our own needs. We undermine our well-being, and we send a message to others and to ourselves.

• 29:28Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe my needs don't matter. Over time, that instability can really catch up with us.

• 29:35Ramit Sethi?

  Tell him why. Why do you need a partner?

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Why do I need a partner? I need a partner because there are a lot of really tough decisions that we have to make. Or, and not even just toughs, like sometimes...

• 29:48Speaker 02

  They just have big implications. And I want to make sure that we are setting ourselves and our kids up in a good position.

• 29:56Ramit Sethi?

  Look at my hand. You're up here, in the clouds.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:59Ramit Sethi?

  I'm not connecting with what you're saying. There are big decisions, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's all intellectual. Is that really why you need a partner? Because you have big decisions?

• 30:10Ramit Sethi?

  You need someone to talk about money with you. Your husband.

• 30:16Ramit Sethi?

  The person you're raising four kids with. You want to talk about money because you have big decisions? Or is there something deeper?

• 30:26Ramit Sethi?

  Tell them how you feel.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  I need a partner because I feel like I am alone managing the finances and

• 30:42Speaker 02

  I really don't do feelings. Goodness.

• 30:45Ramit Sethi?

  You did a great job just now. Can we give it up for you?

• 30:52Ramit Sethi?

  You said, "I don't do feelings."

• 30:55Speaker 02

  This is, yeah, this is quite an interesting introspection for me. Yes.

• 31:03Ramit Sethi?

  Why is that?

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Sitting here and just being like, "Wait a minute, I can't really come up with feelings." And I actually have a social work background.

• 31:11Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay. So we have an accountant who doesn't do personal finance and a social...

• 31:16Speaker 02

  We have an accountant that doesn't do numbers. We have a social worker that can't do feelings. Yes.

• 31:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, this is great.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Actually, I think this is serious because truly, like, a lot of things I am like, "Okay, you need to do the feeling stuff." And, yeah, like, the practical numbers. I'm like, "I'll take that."

• 31:33Ramit Sethi?

  You tell him you need to do the feeling stuff? That might be a good sign that you don't tackle feelings. I see a therapist.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  And I'll say something like, "Hey, I need you, this is what I'm thinking, and I need you to say this now gently to our kids." And I'll be like, "Tell them that that was the stupidest thing I've ever heard of." Now, make that sound better.

• 31:54Ramit Sethi?

  It's true.

• 31:57Ramit Sethi?

  And you said that you have a therapist? And that's great. And do you take this, like, dynamic and talk about it with your therapist? Oh, yeah. Okay, great, good.

• 32:09Ramit Sethi?

  Lisa, were you raised in a family that did not talk about feelings a lot?

• 32:13Speaker 02

  I don't know how you figured that out.

• 32:16Ramit Sethi?

  Where'd you grow up? Midwest?

• 32:19Speaker 02

  No, I grew up in Virginia.

• 32:23Ramit Sethi?

  Listen, I gotta say, I love DC, but I don't know the stereotypes about Virginia. Does Virginia have no emotions? Can someone tell me?

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, Virginia's for lovers.

• 32:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, yeah, I've seen the signs.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  They're just signs.

• 32:38Ramit Sethi?

  Airport, I was like, good logo. All right. Virginia's for lovers, however, we don't talk about feelings in our family.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 32:46Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely, no.

• 32:48Ramit Sethi?

  So you don't talk about feelings, just as your family did not. Sounds about right, pretty classic, we pass on what we learn from our families. And then Marcus, let's talk a little bit about your background. You mentioned that your family didn't talk about money, right? And you said, in your own words, quote, "I'm an accountant, I'm dull and boring, and hate spending money."

• 33:14Ramit Sethi?

  How does it feel to hear me say those words back to you?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  All right, that's definitely been shifting. Especially since doing that CSP, I'll be honest.

• 33:22Ramit Sethi?

  When did you do that CSP?

• 33:23Speaker 01

  It's only been a few weeks, but...

• 33:25Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. I'm glad things have changed, but I'm more interested in what happened before, because that's obviously a pattern that has persisted for a long time. So, again, you said, "I'm an accountant, I'm dull and boring and hate spending money." How, here's my question again, how does it feel to hear me say those words back to you?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Pretty embarrassing.

• 33:47Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm, why?

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Because money shouldn't be something you're ashamed of.

• 33:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay. You know, it's interesting, I noticed when I asked you, "How does it feel?", your first reaction was, "Well, actually, I've been getting a lot better." And you struggle to connect with your feelings a lot, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay, so, me too. Like, it's actually something, when I look back, the way I was raised, we were not taught about feelings, especially guys, especially Indian guys, were not taught about feelings. So if you had asked me a question when I was growing up, and you would've said, "How do you feel about X?", my response would've been, "I think, blank, blank, blank." I was answering here, I didn't even know what was going on here.

• 34:38Ramit Sethi?

  It's not just men, it's all of us, but I think, in particular, men, we don't, we're not taught, and it, we certainly don't talk about it with each other, like, "Bro, how's your feelings today?"

• 34:50Ramit Sethi?

  We don't! And so, we get to be 30 and 40, and I ask, "How does it feel?", and your answer is, "It actually got a lot better after I filled out a spreadsheet."

• 35:03Ramit Sethi?

  So, I hear you loud and clear. I get it. It's something I work on myself. And I want to know about you calling yourself dull and boring. You believe that?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  I feel pretty simple.

• 35:22Ramit Sethi?

  How about the words you wrote, dull and boring?

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:25Ramit Sethi?

  You feel that? Are you dull and boring?

• 35:29Speaker 01

  For the most part, I would say.

• 35:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  I think, out of what? We've been up here 20 minutes? How many words have I said?

• 35:37Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. And why is that? Do you feel uncomfortable talking about money?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:44Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  And that's why we're here.

• 35:45Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. I think it goes deeper than money, though. I mean, I don't know a lot of people who describe themselves as dull and boring, to tell you the truth. Your description of yourself reminds me when I used to call myself a skinny Indian guy. And I said it over and over. It was kind of a punchline. "Oh, I'm a skinny Indian guy, ha, ha, ha, ha." I wish I hadn't said it because it became my self-fulfilling prophecy. It became my identity. Do you believe that you could rewrite part of your identity?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Give Marcus a round of applause if you believe he can do it. I think you can. I believe you can. There are so many similarities between personal finance and fitness. They both involve following a plan. They both involve being intentional and changing your internal psychology. And actually, I find that a lot of people, once they get good at money, they actually transfer that to their own personal fitness. Now, part of fitness is also what you eat. And to be able to have any tools that make this easier for you is a huge win in my book. So I'd like to introduce you to Factor, which lets you eat delicious, nutrient-dense meals without all the hassle.

• 36:59Ramit Sethi?

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• 37:43Ramit Sethi?

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• 37:53Ramit Sethi?

  If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee-only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it.

• 38:38Ramit Sethi?

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• 39:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what did your, what did your parents teach you about money, Marcus?

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 39:22Ramit Sethi?

  Not at all?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 39:24Ramit Sethi?

  Did they ever say, what do you remember them saying about money when you were a kid? Zero?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 39:30Ramit Sethi?

  What about, "We can't afford it"? What about when you ask for a toy?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Uh, save up your allowance, take care of it yourself, more or less.

• 39:38Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's it? And you have brothers and sisters?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  I have an older sister.

• 39:43Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, she avoid money as well?

• 39:46Speaker 01

  We don't really talk much.

• 39:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, got it, got it, got it. So, you learned to avoid money, never talked about it, you brought that into this relationship. Both of you, similar patterns, so many of us, we bring in our feelings about money. Can we start with your identity real quick? What if you rewrote your identity from dull and boring? What if you became the most interesting accountant in Virginia?

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Show people how to work that abacus.

• 40:12Ramit Sethi?

  I mean, have you guys ever seen an accountant take a picture like that?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  To be fair, that picture was her idea.

• 40:21Ramit Sethi?

  And you did it?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Oh, of course.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is our dynamic, absolutely.

• 40:25Ramit Sethi?

  Ah-ha.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  She points, I shoot.

• 40:28Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, okay, and do you like that dynamic?

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Sometimes, but not always.

• 40:34Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm, hmm. Sometimes, um, that dynamic comes across in lots of ways. Like, there've been a couple of examples where I was asking him a question, you kind of jumped in to help him out. Did you notice that?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Um, after you pointed it out.

• 40:46Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, so if that just happened in the 20 minutes we've been here, how many ways do you think that it comes up?

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Oh, I, yes, it comes up a lot, yes.

• 40:56Ramit Sethi?

  So, our dynamics are, are deep inside of us, right? They come across in probably the way that you interact with kids, your kids, the way that you talk to each other, the way that you are here for the first time on a stage like this, interacting. So the solution is not to just attack one of the symptoms, it's to really understand the root cause and go after that. It's harder, but it's way more effective. That's why I'm asking questions about how you were raised and your identity, and the fact that you call yourself dull, because I don't think you're dull, at all. I think there's a lot of really interesting things beneath the surface of both of you. I'm trying to figure them out, okay?

• 41:37Ramit Sethi?

  I'm curious, um, Marcus, what do you like to spend money on? You said you hate to spend money, I don't believe that. What do you like to spend money on?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  So yeah, the not liking to spend money. Um, because we've kind of talked about this.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  It feels selfish.

• 41:56Ramit Sethi?

  Spending money feels selfish?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:57Ramit Sethi?

  Because it could be going to words? What?

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Myself.

• 42:03Ramit Sethi?

  Huh?

• 42:03Speaker 01

  As opposed to like leasing the kids.

• 42:05Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so spending money on yourself is selfish, but spending it on the kids is great.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Fine.

• 42:11Ramit Sethi?

  It's fine. Yeah, okay. Um, okay, well, just for the moment, dream with me. What do you like to spend money on in an alternate universe on yourself?

• 42:22Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 42:22Ramit Sethi?

  Don't look at her.

• 42:25Ramit Sethi?

  He goes.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Well, no, actually, actually, being up in DC, uh, we passed by Capital One and it was like, definitely should be going to a hockey game soon.

• 42:37Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay, I like that. Cool, keep going. Give me some others.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  I mean, we did have a really great trip. We did our tour of the Great Lakes. That was really fun. So more of those.

• 42:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Let's see if we have some inspiration, some ideas. Um, travel, eating out, a new toolbox, some accessory for your work truck, extra 500 gigabytes on your iCloud, whatever. There's so many different examples of things that might make you irrationally happy to spend money on. Like, for me, it's appetizers. You know why?

• 43:15Ramit Sethi?

  What is it for you?

• 43:17Speaker 01

  You know, we did have a good experience a couple of weeks ago. We stayed at a really fancy hotel.

• 43:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  That was nice.

• 43:24Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:25Ramit Sethi?

  Where was that?

• 43:26Speaker 01

  The Jefferson.

• 43:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, great.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Wow, good reaction from the crowd. All right, you pick well. All right. So you stayed there. Why'd you like it?

• 43:35Speaker 01

  The room service.

• 43:37Ramit Sethi?

  Nice.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was awesome.

• 43:39Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, all right. Uh, it's kind of cool seeing you get excited talking about something you like spending money on. Could you have afforded it?

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Did you like it?

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, sounds good to me. Would you do it again?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 43:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I like that. All right. So now we know something that you like spending money on. To me, suddenly, that old identity of I hate spending money, it's gone. What do you think about that? That's the Marcus of the past.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  It's nice.

• 44:10Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. How do you feel about that, Lisa?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  I feel excited.

• 44:15Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  I was actually really excited after that night at the Jefferson.

• 44:19Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm, how do you feel about him saying that he likes to spend money on that?

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel excited. I feel like we're on the same page with that because I also enjoyed it and that's something that I would like to do more of.

• 44:36Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, love that. Alright, um, you're here tonight, why? Who are you here for?

• 44:45Speaker 03

  The kids.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  I mean, for us and also the kids.

• 44:48Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, the kids. Four kids, what are their ages?

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Fourteen, twelve, seven, and five.

• 44:56Ramit Sethi?

  Amazing, okay. Your kids, do they see the way that you talk about money?

• 45:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:01Ramit Sethi?

  They do. Oh, whoa, what was that? What was that sigh you have?

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Uh, because I know that I'm doing a terrible job.

• 45:09Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, why do you say that?

• 45:12Speaker 03

  They think we're broke as a joke?

• 45:14Ramit Sethi?

  Sometimes I find it helpful to look back at their application, which often tells me the raw truth. Listen to what Lisa wrote in her application. Quote, "I had the heartbreaking realization that the way my partner and I talk about money has led to my kids likely feeling anxious or avoidant about money." That shows how these conversations are affecting their entire family. And Marcus also has some really strong feelings about passing down this trait to their kids. Listen to this clip from their pre-interview with my producer.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  She shared with me what she put in the application. So it did get me thinking about the kids and also the messages I received from my parents, which weren't any. I mean, later in life, my dad said that my mom's family is just all about spending and who cares if you go into debt? And he was like, "I, I save, but like, I grew up in a very masculine-centered Italian household." So even if things were horrible, he wouldn't say it. I know how Lisa was referring to the kids' anxieties over money. I feel I grew up in a similar environment, which I think is why I avoid talking about finances like plague. And yeah, I know it's ironic that I became an accountant.

• 46:38Speaker 03

  In that way, so yes, communicating with the kids about money is a big one. And then setting those examples is something I would like to accomplish someday.

• 46:48Ramit Sethi?

  Wow. This is a powerful reminder that the way we talk about money does not just affect you personally. It doesn't even just affect your partner. It affects everyone in your household, often for generations. The good news is it's not too late for Lisa and Marcus to create a healthier example for their kids. The challenge is getting them to break this pattern that they have. And to recalibrate, even reconceptualize a new, more powerful, positive dynamic with money today.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  I don't feel that they're seeing us make powerful choices and decisions around money. And they're not seeing us use it in a way that is effective and powerful and creating anything other than conflict.

• 47:36Ramit Sethi?

  Did everybody catch that word she used? Powerful. What a beautiful word. Powerful. I like seeing the two of you being powerful with money. What a vision.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  I like doing it.

• 47:50Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Marcus, what do you think? Could you be powerful with money? Sounds pretty fun. Can I ask again? Could you be powerful with money? It's a yes or no question. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. Let's, let's create a new dynamic of the way that the two of you talk about money. Okay? Right now, the dynamic is very clear. Lisa, you bring it up. Marcus, you avoid it. And you continue this dynamic. And the, the more you do it, the more it's like the two of you are pulling on a piece of rope and the knot is just getting tighter and tighter in the middle. No one's going anywhere. So we're going to create a new dynamic right here, right in front of all of us.

• 48:29Ramit Sethi?

  New ground rules for the way that you talk about money. I have a couple, and then I want to hear you guys try to do it. Number one, it's gotta be fun. Talking about money has to be fun. That's number one. It's gotta be easy. And you gotta show your partner some grace. Because each of you is coming to these conversations with different history, different family history. You think you could do those rules?

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:57Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, two bonus rules. One is, um, talk about what you want to do, not what you don't want to do. And finally, at the end, you give each other a hug, you give each other a kiss, you say "I love you." That's it. Okay. How would you talk about the truck conversation in this new way of interacting with each other?

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  So we're gonna have a really fun conversation here.

• 49:32Ramit Sethi?

  Give it up, let's give it up.

• 49:35Ramit Sethi?

  I like it.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  I, we had a lot of fun going on the camping trip this summer that you referenced. I want to do that again. That was a lot of fun, and I would love to keep doing that stuff with our kids.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  So how do we go about getting said truck?

• 49:54Ramit Sethi?

  What, what, what, what? Where's this truck? We're not even talking about a truck yet. Oh, okay, that was awesome. What I love about that, we're gonna keep doing this. What I love about that is you started off with a North Star. We had so much fun when we took that trip. That was awesome. And you're, you're both feeling that excitement. I love it. Just a quick little suggestion. I noticed at the end of, each of you has monologues. So you had this very nice thing, and then it just ended. You gotta toss him the ball. So you might say, "What do you think?" Or, "What was your favorite part of that trip?" Toss it to him.

• 50:29Ramit Sethi?

  Play with it, answer the question, and toss it back. Go ahead.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  What was your favorite part of that trip?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Uh, the Christmas Story Museum.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Oh, what'd you like about the Christmas Story Museum?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  It was really cool to see a bunch of people who were just really into this random movie.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  But you could just tell they loved it. Like, everyone that worked there, and all the details they put in that house, it was fun.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. That was really fun.

• 51:00Ramit Sethi?

  What's happening right now?

• 51:01Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 51:01Ramit Sethi?

  Who's tossing the ball? You notice, this is good, but Lisa, you keep...

• 51:05Speaker 02

  I do, don't I?

• 51:06Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, you're... You feel like you have to carry this, but you don't. If you want a dynamic where you have an equal partner in this, then you have to be willing to not pick up the slack every time. And Marcus, you have to be willing to speak up and drive this conversation. Because right now, you're doing this. You're leaning back and just waiting. And because, deep in your mind, this isn't a fun conversation. This isn't a conversation where you're gonna end up at that beautiful hotel. This is a conversation where you're trying to get out of it as quickly as possible. It's like me on a roller coaster, like, [BLEEP]. And what I'm trying to do is to actually physically change the way that you feel.

• 51:49Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe lean forward, maybe listen closer, maybe engage in a different way. It actually changes your feelings by your physicality. So, I'll cue it up. What did you love about that movie?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  The movie? Or the museum?

• 52:07Ramit Sethi?

  The museum.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  The museum. It was just really cool, the details. And just seeing a lot of people really into it. I just thought that was pretty cool. The movie itself, and I mean, you know how I like the details when we go to Disney. Like, I'm always pointing at the random details, so it was really enjoyable.

• 52:23Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, move it along. Talk the ball... Where are we going with this?

• 52:27Speaker 01

  So where do we want to go next?

• 52:29Ramit Sethi?

  No, no, no, no.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  No?

• 52:30Ramit Sethi?

  You take it there.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Oh, I take it there.

• 52:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. So what are you guys talking about here? Let's zoom out for a second. What are we doing right now?

• 52:39Ramit Sethi?

  What's the point of this conversation?

• 52:42Ramit Sethi?

  We're talking about the truck. We're talking about freedom. We're talking about money for the first time. Lisa, you started off by saying, "I really enjoyed that trip we took." What did you enjoy about it? You shared your feelings, which was great. Can we start to go towards this conversation about the truck?

• 53:04Speaker 01

  So clearly, to be able to do this more, you know, we gotta get a truck that you can drive. So how do we wanna go about getting that truck? Or go?

• 53:16Ramit Sethi?

  Go ahead, I'm listening.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Do I actually then, you want me to share my ideas? Oh, gosh, I've just, that's where my problem is.

• 53:24Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  That's exactly where my problem is. Because that's now, I'm gonna just hit him with a bunch of facts and numbers about trucks, and it's dull, and it's boring, and overwhelming.

• 53:33Ramit Sethi?

  Can I make a suggestion?

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:35Ramit Sethi?

  Can I kinda model out how I might have a conversation like this? Okay, so I might say, um, well, first of all, if I'm really gonna paint the picture, I think the person to start this conversation should be Marcus. Because I think, Lisa, you've been carrying these conversations for probably the last 14-plus years. And I don't think that's fair. And I think that it feels really lonely to be the one who always brings up a topic only to be sidelined or ignored by a partner. That can't feel good. And the fact is, the two of you are raising four kids, and you're here for a really important reason, not just for yourself, but for your kids.

• 54:17Ramit Sethi?

  Because if you can't have a healthy conversation about money, then how are your kids gonna do it?

• 54:25Speaker 01

  History will repeat itself?

• 54:26Ramit Sethi?

  Just as it already has.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  I don't want that to happen. I want our kids to see us.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Coming up with ideas and solutions and plans.

• 54:40Ramit Sethi?

  My team had a chance to speak to your oldest son. I want to see what he had to say. Let's take a look.

• 54:51Speaker 04

  Mom and dad, I wish that when you talk about money, it wasn't an argument. It was a conversation you had between the two of you. I don't need you to talk to me about it. Just talk to yourselves without me hearing from across the street.

• 55:09Ramit Sethi?

  Can we give it up for your oldest? 14 years old, right?

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:14Ramit Sethi?

  I love that video. That is a classic 14-year-old. He's just saying it as it is. What do you take away from that? Marcus?

• 55:25Speaker 01

  We need to behave better in front of them and we need to set a better example.

• 55:30Ramit Sethi?

  How do you do that?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Practice.

• 55:34Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, great answer. Practice. What else? Lisa?

• 55:39Speaker 02

  I think we probably really do need to actually talk about feelings more. And him saying, "I need you guys not to talk to me about stuff, but I need you guys to do it." That really resonated with me because I do feel that is what's happening at home. Like, I do feel I'm telling the kids about money, but not really showing them or being an example of how to use it.

• 56:03Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. To me, the thing I love, that's great.

• 56:08Ramit Sethi?

  Sometimes kids make us see things that we can't see on our own. Because they are utterly truthful. And the video is an amazing example of that. The goal is joyful conversations with the two of you. Joyful, happy, fun, where mom and dad are teasing each other playfully, are giving each other a high five, giving each other a hug, and the family is seeing it. Or if they're in a different room, they're hearing it. And that's when kids start to associate money with positivity and potential, confidence and connection.

• 56:57Ramit Sethi?

  And so I think the stakes are really high. They're much higher than what model of truck you want to buy. Whether you get the truck or not, to me, the truck is a detail. What I'm hearing is there's no communication that's effective about money. There's a very reasonable request for freedom. You want to get out of the house, I get that. And you both need to be able to do it together. So if you can do it for yourselves, that's amazing. And it will pay off for generations to come, alright? I have a lot of confidence in the two of you. I'm going to give you a copy of my book. Use it and stay in touch. I'd love to know how it goes, alright? Can we give it up for Lisa and Marcus? Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you.

• 57:42Ramit Sethi?

  You guys are great. Thank you.

• 57:50Ramit Sethi?

  Lisa and Marcus came into this conversation thinking their money issues were just about purchasing a truck. But what we've seen is that it runs so much deeper. Their conversations about money are really conversations about trust and resentment and feeling unheard. And like so many parents their age, they don't talk openly about their feelings. Instead, that frustration gets bottled up. And when it does come out, it often comes out as anger. But it is not too late to change. It's almost never too late to change. The way that you talk about money is just a microcosm of the way that you show up in your relationship. You want to have a different outcome? You want to feel positive? You want to feel abundant about money?

• 58:34Ramit Sethi?

  Then you've got to approach it differently. And that means making space for the full range of emotions. Not just anger, but also vulnerability and honesty. Lisa and Marcus have some serious work to do, but they do have a few new tools to start. And I believe they can do it.

• 58:52Ramit Sethi?

  There are so many similarities between personal finance and fitness. They both involve following a plan. They both involve being intentional and changing your internal psychology. And actually, I find that a lot of people, once they get good at money, they actually transfer that to their own personal fitness. Now, part of fitness is also what you eat. And to be able to have any tools that make this easier for you is a huge win in my book. So I'd like to introduce you to Factor, which lets you eat delicious, nutrient-dense meals without all the hassle. Factor is a meal service that delivers fully-prepared, ready-to-eat meals directly to your door. And they have a lot of variety.

• 59:34Ramit Sethi?

  They have over 100 rotating weekly meals, including high-protein options, keto, GLP-1-friendly. They even have a Muscle Pro Collection for strength and workout recovery. Factor meals include lean proteins, colorful veggies, and healthy fats. Plus, they are never frozen, and they are ready to eat in under two minutes. This is an easy way to try introducing systems into your health, specifically the way you eat. And if I needed healthy, ready-made meals, this is what I would use. Head to factormeals.com/ramit50off and use code RAMIT50OFF to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only, while supplies last until September 27, 2026. See website for more details.

• 1:00:19Ramit Sethi?

  I have a very special DC guest I'd like to welcome to the stage. Let's take a look. Open that one up.

• 1:00:30Speaker 05

  This is a ticket.

• 1:00:31Ramit Sethi?

  Why you get so many tickets?

• 1:00:32Speaker 05

  See, $50.

• 1:00:33Ramit Sethi?

  We know that's not paying.

• 1:00:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Ramit Sethi?

  Poster fee for $105. Amount due $100. Amount past due, okay. Read that out loud for the camera, please.

• 1:00:42Speaker 05

  Oh, second delinquent violation of it.

• 1:00:45Ramit Sethi?

  Second delinquent. Do not put it back in there.

• 1:00:47Speaker 05

  What? What you want me to do with it?

• 1:00:48Ramit Sethi?

  I want you to pay it. After carefully reviewing your application, we regret we are unable to approve the terms of your credit request. What is this?

• 1:00:55Speaker 05

  Oh, I had tried to get a new card.

• 1:00:57Ramit Sethi?

  Not anymore. You've been pre-qualified for a secured...

• 1:01:00Speaker 05

  Uh, hold on now.

• 1:01:05Ramit Sethi?

  Let's give it up for Frank!

• 1:01:13Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you.

• 1:01:14Speaker 05

  Come on up.

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  All right. Welcome, welcome.

• 1:01:23Ramit Sethi?

  First of all, I gotta tell you, that was one of my favorite scenes from the entire show.

• 1:01:26Speaker 05

  Oh my God, it's so funny, right?

• 1:01:27Ramit Sethi?

  We had a blast.

• 1:01:29Speaker 05

  Open my mail now.

• 1:01:30Ramit Sethi?

  You do?

• 1:01:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Ramit Sethi?

  Tell everybody, what is it like to open mail?

• 1:01:33Speaker 05

  It's still stressful.

• 1:01:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:01:35Speaker 05

  But I was very proud to tell you today that I only got two tickets last year. And do you know what happened to me today?

• 1:01:43Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me.

• 1:01:44Speaker 05

  I went to the mailbox, because I said, "I'm gonna make sure I have all my mail open before I come sit on this stage." Why do I have a ticket from a county that I've only been to like twice? And I said, "Wow, this is for me already in 2025, dropping a ticket."

• 1:01:59Ramit Sethi?

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:02:01Speaker 05

  In my mailbox.

• 1:02:02Ramit Sethi?

  Are you gonna pay that ticket?

• 1:02:03Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:02:03Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 1:02:04Speaker 05

  I was gonna pay it before I came here today, because I didn't even want you to ask me if I had paid it.

• 1:02:11Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so I heard that you do not want to talk about debt today.

• 1:02:15Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:02:16Ramit Sethi?

  But, and that's fine, but just so you know, we did a poll of a bunch of people attending this tour, and 10.9% responded that they have more than $100,000 in consumer debt, so you're not alone.

• 1:02:31Speaker 05

  Well, come on, look at God. I love that. We need to form a support group, so that people can hit me up.

• 1:02:39Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I want to know, um, do people ever recognize you from the Netflix show?

• 1:02:44Speaker 05

  Oh my God, listen, it's probably some of you all out here, let me see it right, so I can really talk to the people. It's probably some of your friends out here. I'll be out at brunch, not as much.

• 1:02:58Ramit Sethi?

  That was nice.

• 1:02:58Speaker 05

  Not as much, but it'll be your, it'll be your people that'll be like, "Oh, I'm telling Ramit you're at brunch." And let me tell you, let me tell you what the problem is, nobody ever is like, "Let me cover that."

• 1:03:12Speaker 05

  But they'll be quick and be like, "Oh, let's take a shot, let's take a shot." And I'm just like, "Girl, it's not making sense."

• 1:03:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Ramit Sethi?

  I like that you-

• 1:03:21Speaker 05

  Y'all know exactly what I'm talking about.

• 1:03:23Ramit Sethi?

  You have to do-

• 1:03:23Speaker 05

  There's one person out here, I feel it in my spirit.

• 1:03:26Ramit Sethi?

  You have to do brunch undercover now. You can't be seen doing brunch anymore here.

• 1:03:30Speaker 05

  No, I be going in there with my head down. That's why I started wearing straws everywhere. Jesus.

• 1:03:35Ramit Sethi?

  So, looking back on the show, we had a lot of fun filming it. I'm curious, what lessons did you take away from our time together?

• 1:03:44Speaker 05

  Oh my God, just not being afraid to really get into your finances and learn. I think the biggest thing that you were shocked about was that I didn't know my monthly expenses.

• 1:03:55Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Speaker 05

  And now I'm like, okay, being, doing what I do now, being a full-time entrepreneur, it's kind of like, oh, I have to know my monthly expenses because I, sometimes I want to pay them a month in advance. So just, really, you can't, I think the biggest thing I learned from you was that if I don't tackle it, it will keep tackling me.

• 1:04:13Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:14Ramit Sethi?

  That's right. Okay, nice work. I like that.

• 1:04:16Speaker 05

  I better clap for me, I done grew.

• 1:04:20Ramit Sethi?

  Now, I remember sitting on your couch and we were going through every expense that you had. Do you have a big-picture sense of your money now?

• 1:04:30Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, you, I think the picture looks very different. Um, when you go from being paid bi-weekly-

• 1:04:36Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:36Speaker 05

  To I can get paid this month and I get paid again until March or April. Um, so yeah, the big picture is big.

• 1:04:44Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and how, and that's in your business as a content creator, right?

• 1:04:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:04:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you were thinking about leaving, and then you did, you went full-time as a content creator. Are you still full-time?

• 1:04:55Speaker 05

  I am.

• 1:04:56Ramit Sethi?

  Hey.

• 1:04:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58Ramit Sethi?

  That's amazing, okay. What was that journey like? Because you had a normal nine-to-five job. It's a big decision to become an entrepreneur. What was it like the first six, 12 months as a creator?

• 1:05:10Speaker 05

  Hell, I hope I can say that. I hope I can say that. It was, it was really, it was really challenging. I think, you know, being on the hype of a show, I'm in, I'm in, you know, I'm in heat. People are blowing me up, people want to work with me, the brand deals are coming.

• 1:05:27Ramit Sethi?

  Did you say you're in heat?

• 1:05:28Speaker 05

  I am.

• 1:05:29Ramit Sethi?

  What the hell?

• 1:05:30Speaker 05

  I am.

• 1:05:30Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know?

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  You better, don't ask me no questions you don't want me to answer on your stage now. I heard there's some singer people out there, we're in the mix of it. Okay.

• 1:05:43Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you were in heat as a creator.

• 1:05:45Speaker 05

  I was in heat, I was a hot commodity.

• 1:05:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I got you.

• 1:05:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I think, you know, those things slow down. And I think that is just the business that I'm in. Like, I can make a bunch of money one month and I cannot make any money the next month. And I think that was very stressful for me because it went down those first six to 12 months. I was like, oh, it's been like four or five months. Ain't nobody wanna, don't nobody want me to do no ad? Don't nobody want me pushing a cart through giant? They don't want, they don't want me to do nothing? And so it was, it was a lot because you see, you see the money of your account steadily going down and it's not increasing. So, the first 12, the first 12 months was really, really eye-opening and it really,

• 1:06:32Speaker 05

  I'm kind of glad it happened because it taught me this can happen to you in this work if you don't do this, this, this.

• 1:06:40Ramit Sethi?

  That's a good lesson. That's scary. It's scary to see an amount of money just slowly dwindling down. And you're trying everything you can, but at first, nothing's working.

• 1:06:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:51Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Did it turn around? Did it start to pick up?

• 1:06:54Speaker 05

  Oh, it turned around.

• 1:06:55Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah?

• 1:06:55Speaker 05

  It turned around. You know, I had a really, really great 2020, 24. 2020, 24. But I had a really, really great year last year. I became an ambassador for Felt Time, one of the first creators to ever get that spot.

• 1:07:08Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 1:07:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, I worked with, I landed a very large commercial deal with a pharmaceutical company that I was able to do a two-in-one deal where I did commercial work for them and social media content. So, she's doing good.

• 1:07:24Ramit Sethi?

  All right, I like that. And then what about your own spending? What changed?

• 1:07:30Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, everything. Everything. I had to do a lot of sacrificing. I, me and my friends talk about it quite often. It was, it was a period of time, and it still kind of happens today, where they would decide two months, oh, I'm going, we're going to Barbados. I'm like, oh, I can't do that.

• 1:07:50Ramit Sethi?

  You said that.

• 1:07:50Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. I, that was a period, I didn't go on any, like, the only trips I took last year were for work. They were not for leisure.

• 1:07:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I have to say, that is actually one of the most impressive changes I've heard.

• 1:08:05Ramit Sethi?

  That's amazing. Because when I met you, you never said no because of money.

• 1:08:12Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:12Ramit Sethi?

  Never. And the fact that you will now say, "I can't afford that."

• 1:08:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Ramit Sethi?

  That is amazing.

• 1:08:17Speaker 05

  And the money be in my account. But I also know now that I have to look. I don't have to look just in January. I need to think about June.

• 1:08:25Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 1:08:26Speaker 05

  So I'm looking ahead. So if I can't do it like three times, I don't need to be going out.

• 1:08:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. That's amazing. What do you remember? What else do you remember about our time on the show?

• 1:08:37Speaker 05

  Oh, my God. Phantom cost.

• 1:08:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah?

• 1:08:40Speaker 05

  Like, even when I took an Uber today, I was like, "Oh, this is way too much money."

• 1:08:44Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:44Speaker 05

  And every time I DoorDash, I look at the like taxes and I'm just like, "Okay, it says $3.99, but if you do this like 50 times in a year, that's a lot of money." And I'd be like, "Get off my shoulder, Ramon." Every time.

• 1:09:01Ramit Sethi?

  I liked that you were really honest about your relationship with money. And you know what? A lot of people don't open their bills. A lot. Because when you have bill after bill after bill, at a certain point, you don't know the numbers, but you just know it's bad.

• 1:09:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Ramit Sethi?

  And so what you showed on that show was actually really common for a lot of people. And we had some fun with it, you know? But to me, that was really courageous that you showed people what it feels like to not be in control of your money.

• 1:09:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of people come up to me and they say, "I'm in that same situation." And I really, it was really refreshing to see that on TV. And I'm not gonna lie, I was a little bit traumatic at first because people would literally come up to me and ask me, "Oh, well, what are you doing about this, this, this?" And I just be like, "Girl, I don't even know your name, girl. What's going on?" But I know that there was, I know that my vulnerability was good for people to see. So, super grateful for the opportunity.

• 1:09:59Ramit Sethi?

  I agree. Um, let's talk about um you as an entrepreneur. I heard you have some questions about financial stuff as an entrepreneur.

• 1:10:08Speaker 05

  I do. I'm just like, you know, I'm thirty one right now. And I feel like business is going great. But I'm also thinking about what do I need to make sure I do so that, you know, if I turn fifty and it's getting a little slow and I have.

• 1:10:25Ramit Sethi?

  What do you mean if you turn fifty?

• 1:10:26Speaker 05

  You know, I might not make it. I might not, listen.

• 1:10:29Ramit Sethi?

  All right, go on.

• 1:10:30Speaker 05

  You might not get it. When I turn fifty, what, what do I need to do? Because I don't want to be a content creator.

• 1:10:36Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:37Speaker 05

  Um, I would love to be a, you know, entrepreneur and do other things, start businesses and things like that. But what do I need to do to like sit money to the side and start, you know, diversifying my portfolio? Ain't that what y'all talk? No, that's what I wanted to ask you about today.

• 1:10:52Ramit Sethi?

  You didn't read my book, right?

• 1:10:55Speaker 05

  For me, that was so long ago. I had a feeling.

• 1:11:00Ramit Sethi?

  You were, I knew you wouldn't have read it.

• 1:11:02Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:11:03Ramit Sethi?

  Read that, read that little autograph.

• 1:11:05Speaker 05

  I need to read it again. Did you autograph it?

• 1:11:07Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, read it out loud. Read that autograph.

• 1:11:08Speaker 05

  Oh, this one say host of Netflix's How to Get Rich. Did you put my picture in here?

• 1:11:13Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, it's in there.

• 1:11:14Speaker 05

  Oh, I was about to say.

• 1:11:15Ramit Sethi?

  It's right on the front page. Open up that autograph. Read it to everybody. What does it say?

• 1:11:22Speaker 05

  Frank, I knew you didn't read this the first time. Great to see you again.

• 1:11:33Speaker 05

  That is so crazy. You need to mind your business.

• 1:11:38Speaker 05

  You know, it was a lot. It was a lot trying to work a full-time job and be the star of a show now. It was a lot. It was a lot. I was just trying to make it through. Okay?

• 1:11:49Ramit Sethi?

  So now you're in this place. I love that you're asking questions about what can I do to get ahead? That's going to help you do it. And I think back then you probably were not in the place to absorb this type of stuff.

• 1:12:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:12:02Ramit Sethi?

  That's okay. We all start from whatever, whatever place we're at. But what I love is now you're ready.

• 1:12:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Ramit Sethi?

  You're asking these questions. What do I do to get ahead? What do I do with this money that I have? That's exactly the kind of question that I love to work with people on. So I think as an entrepreneur, you have a lot of opportunities. You can do so many things. You can put a ton of money aside. There's SEP IRAs, solo 401Ks. There's so many options you have as an entrepreneur to really put up a lot of money and invest it every year. But that'll get you started and then you could talk to an accountant.

• 1:12:36Speaker 05

  Okay, now what about life insurance policies? Do you be, what do you think about those?

• 1:12:40Ramit Sethi?

  That's what's in the book.

• 1:12:41Speaker 05

  It's in the book, also.

• 1:12:42Ramit Sethi?

  That was, I'll just tell you right now that.

• 1:12:45Speaker 05

  So I just gotta read the book?

• 1:12:46Ramit Sethi?

  Do you have any dependents?

• 1:12:48Speaker 05

  Mm-mm, that mean kids, right? You know I ain't got no damn kids.

• 1:12:53Ramit Sethi?

  So this is a good question, actually, for some people in the crowd.

• 1:12:56Speaker 05

  Do they got kids?

• 1:12:56Ramit Sethi?

  What do y'all think? Should he get life insurance?

• 1:13:00Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:13:00Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you think they're saying that?

• 1:13:01Speaker 05

  They must've read the damn book.

• 1:13:07Ramit Sethi?

  You don't need life insurance for, because you're not taking care of anybody. So if you were to get hit by a bus, there's no kids around, there's nobody else. Depending, I would be sad. I would be sad, but I don't need the money.

• 1:13:24Speaker 05

  Got you.

• 1:13:24Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:13:25Speaker 05

  So I, no life insurance and no bus rides?

• 1:13:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's about right.

• 1:13:29Speaker 05

  Got you, okay. I'm gonna be dodging buses. No more straw, no more crosswalks.

• 1:13:34Ramit Sethi?

  What is your message for people who are in debt or not at the place they want to be with their money? Having gone through our work together, what would you tell somebody in that situation?

• 1:13:45Speaker 05

  I think to, I think the biggest thing is to really learn your money. I don't think you have to have a lot of money to learn what you're bringing in, what's coming out, and figuring out a, a plan for that. And, you know, you can get more money, but you can't, if you're not managing what you have, I think that's going to be the really hurtful factor. If you don't know, I wasn't even, I don't think, before I met you, I wasn't even checking my bank account regularly. Now I'm checking it every day, every time I leave the store, because I'm like, oh, I worked hard for every single penny that's in this account, so I want to make sure that I'm protecting. But I also want to make sure that I know what's going on, so that I can know what's going on, if that makes sense.

• 1:14:29Ramit Sethi?

  All right, let's give it up for Frank. Thank you, Frank.

• 1:14:33Ramit Sethi?

  I absolutely love catching up with people years after we first worked together. And I'm not surprised that Frank still has not read my book. But I want to acknowledge how far he has come. His transformation is not just about spending money differently. It's also about thinking differently. If you're feeling overwhelmed by debt, or you're just not sure what to do. Please know that you are not alone and that you can make a change. And if you are ready to take control of your finances. My new book, Money for Couples, has everything you need to start living your rich life. Grab your copy at I W T dot com slash money for couples.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Right after we got off stage, I asked multiple people backstage if they really do talk about their feelings regarding money. That was truly a foreign concept to me. And I realized that how I would have described my feelings was now that I'm staying home and I'm the uncompensated spouse. I realized I feel really vulnerable when it comes to money. And when Marcus and I aren't talking about it, it feels like something that doesn't belong to me. And it only belongs to him.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  The biggest detriment, I think, to or contributor to my avoidance is not acknowledging my anxieties. And they're there needing to change my mentality to our financial conversations. And needing to use the work that I've done with my therapist already and apply it to our financial conversations.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  I have also realized how often when we talked about money that I did shut Marcus down when he tried to talk about his feelings. I know I many times said the phrase, it's just math. So I am trying to be more open about how, what my feelings are and give him space to share his.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  So thanks again. I really appreciated the opportunity and it's not going to go to waste. Thank you again.

• 1:16:41Ramit Sethi?

  If you want my help with your specific money questions, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply or you can become a member of my money coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In money coaching, you get access to monthly calls where I answer your questions directly on a private call and I get the chance to go much deeper on the concepts of money that have made a huge change in my life. Plus, you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life. Check out money coaching at iwt.com/moneycoaching.