SURVIVING: Ernest Pine

In August 2008, a woman in rural Kentucky survived one of the most brutal assaults we have ever reported, but her strength that night ensured her attacker was identified and arrested. Years later, he is a free man living in the community. As we examined his past, we uncovered unsettling similarities to another case that has haunted a family for decades. Now, two families are searching for answers — and they need your help.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ashley Flowers?

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• 1:29Ashley Flowers?

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• 2:16Ashley Flowers?

  Hi, crime junkies. Even though I don't sound like it, I am your host, Ashley Flowers.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  And I'm Britt.

• 2:22Ashley Flowers?

  And even though I'm sick, there is no way I was going to keep me from telling this story this week, because this is an urgent warning for the people of Elizabeth Town, Kentucky. There is a man living among you who committed one of the most violent, heinous crimes on a neighbor that he barely even knew for a reason no one knows. With her grandchild in the other room, he brutalized this woman and then went home to make supper and watch TV like nothing happened. And the only reason police knew where to go looking for him and the mountain of evidence that proved he committed this crime is because the victim wrote his name in her own blood

• 3:03Ashley Flowers?

  and somehow managed to survive so she could warn others about this church-going father who masqueraded as a good man. This story is going to be hard to hear, but no one else is talking about it, so I want to warn you, because some in the community have long wondered whether this survivor was the only victim of Ernest Pine.

• 3:58Ashley Flowers?

  The neighborhoods that surround Rough River Lake in Kentucky are quiet ones. It's over an hour away from any big city and really gives those "nothing bad happens here" kind of vibes to those who don't know. But anyone who lived there in August 2008 found out the hard way that evil can reside anywhere, and they learned that lesson at the expense of one woman, a woman who is still so scared of the man who masqueraded as Normal that she asked us not to use her real name, so I'll call her Linda. And the day that changed Linda's life forever was August 25th, 2008. That's when Linda was home babysitting her 22-month-old granddaughter who was asleep on the couch.

• 4:42Ashley Flowers?

  And Linda was next to her just watching TV when she got a knock at her door. It was a little after 7:00 PM at the time, the sun was still out. Wouldn't be setting for like a couple of more hours that time of year. And in a place like this where you know all your neighbors, Linda didn't even hesitate to open her front door. And it was for a neighbor, Ernest Pine. Now, the two exchanged friendly greetings and Ernest told Linda that he was there to talk to her husband about a boat dock that either he has or maybe one that he was building. And he wanted her husband to work on it because he's an engineer. Now Linda's husband wasn't home and she told Ernest as much, said he would be back in a half an hour or so. And Ernest seemed happy with that and turned to leave.

• 5:24Ashley Flowers?

  And as he made that motion, signaling to Linda that their very normal, very safe interaction was over. Just when her guard was completely down and she went to close the door. That is the moment he pounced. Ernest shoved the door open and forced his way inside. And before she can even process what is happening, Linda feels the butt of a gun against her head and she hears Ernest in her ear. He says, "Turn around, Ben. You are going to die." Every nerve ending is on fire and she believes him. Even before he pulls out the six-inch hunting knife and zip ties. Which, by the way, he had to have brought with him. This was planned.

• 6:08Ashley Flowers?

  And in that moment, she knows that this isn't a situation where she can just appease him, give him what he wants and he'll leave. What he wants is to kill her. And so she fights. He's trying to get her to put her hands behind her back and to tie them with the zip ties, but she won't let him. So he hits her with the gun three times, but Linda keeps fighting. And for a moment, she pulls her arms free and she reaches for the side door that leads to the garage, hoping that she can get her German shepherd that is in there. But right as she is about to open it, Ernest grabs her again. He pulls her back, and this is when he's able to tie her arms. And he tells her that if she tries that again, he will not just kill her. He will also kill her granddaughter too.

• 6:51Ashley Flowers?

  Now Linda knows that that little girl could wake up any second, so she makes a request. She asks Ernest to move her to the small laundry utility space that they have just off the kitchen, so that whatever is about to happen to her won't be witnessed by her granddaughter if she does wake up. And Ernest complies. He drags her to that room, and she hears the lock click behind them. Now Linda is still not giving up in that moment. She manages to pull her arms out of the zip ties, but Ernest is bigger than her. He overpowers her. He cuts off all of her clothes, and for the next 15 minutes that feel like a lifetime to her, Ernest sexually assaults her with objects that he finds nearby while Linda tries to fight him off.

• 7:37Ashley Flowers?

  Now, at one point, Linda's able to push him to the ground, and that's when he starts cutting her with his knife. And he tells her that she is not getting out of this room. She has to die because she knows who he is. And that's when he pulls out his gun and aims it right at her head. And she hears it go off, but somehow, by some miracle, the round just zips past her head and hits the wall. So he fires again, but this time, it's just the click of the trigger she hears. No shot. The gun jammed. But in that half second that Linda thought she'd been saved, that's when Ernest grabs Linda by the head and slices her throat ear to ear.

• 8:19Ashley Flowers?

  When Ernest lets her go, her body just falls limp onto this pile of towels. And even though at that moment, she is sure she's going to die, she still won't give up. She is pressing the towels against her neck, trying to use them to like stop the bleeding as best she can. And she uses every ounce of energy she has, every ounce of willpower that she has left to hold on as long as possible and to hold as still as possible, because she's trying to convince Ernest she's dead. Now it's quiet, so she can hear him unlock the door, leave the room. But then he comes back and he just like stands over her. And all of a sudden Linda feels this searing pain because he's stabbing her.

• 9:03Ashley Flowers?

  And he does this over and over again, leaves, comes back and stabs her, leaves, comes back and stabs her. And all the while, somehow she is managing to play dead. Finally, she hears a new sound. Ernest is running the sink in the utility room. Now he thinks she is dead on the floor and he is washing his knife and washing his hands above her before leaving the room one last time. Then she hears the front door open and close. And even then she cannot bring herself to move. Like he could come back and if he does, if he stabs her one more time, that might really be it for her. So for another 10 long minutes, Linda just lies there bleeding on this heap of towels, wondering

• 9:49Ashley Flowers?

  if her utility room is going to be the last thing she ever sees. And when she's sure that he's not coming back to clean up anymore, that's when Linda takes her finger and in her own blood, begins to scrawl Ernest's name on the wall. She wants people to know who did this to her. And when she finishes the final E in his last name Pine, somehow, maybe it's the adrenaline that's been rushing through her body, or just the drive to protect her granddaughter. At that moment Linda pushes herself up off the floor and she makes her way out of the utility room into the kitchen where she can see her granddaughter in the living room on the couch who thank God is still asleep and unharmed. So she makes a beeline for the front door to lock it.

• 10:35Ashley Flowers?

  And then next to the door is their security system, so she presses the panic button, which triggers a 911 call at 8:12 PM, ending her hour in hell with Ernest. Now she has never had to use this button before. She doesn't even know how quickly police will respond, or if they will at all. So she goes back to the kitchen and starts making calls while she's still bleeding out. She calls her son-in-law who lives next door and then she hangs up and calls her husband and begs him to come home. They both call 9112 to make sure they know to send an ambulance, not just police. And Linda is somehow still conscious and talking when first responders get there at 8:20 PM. And as more and more people show up and she's loaded into an ambulance, she is able to relay what happened to her.

• 11:19Ashley Flowers?

  And more importantly, who is responsible? So as they airlift her to University Hospital in Louisville for emergency surgery, the sheriff goes to the home of Ernest Pine, just a one-minute drive away, positions outside his home and calls his landline. When Ernest answers, the sheriff asks him to come out of his home, but he doesn't say why. Now, it's dark now, around 9:00 PM, and Ernest emerges from his front door blinded by a cruiser's spotlight. And as the sheriff arrests him and places him in the back of a car, a deputy notices that he reeks of alcohol. But he is coherent enough to answer questions after he's read his Miranda rights. They ask him, is anyone else inside? "No," he says, "my wife's at a dog show two hours away."

• 12:04Ashley Flowers?

  "Were you at Linda's house earlier tonight?" "No." But when the sheriff says, like, "So if a neighbor told me that they had seen you on the front porch earlier, then you're saying that neighbor would have been lying." And this is when Ernest starts backtracking, saying, "Well, actually, yeah, I did go over there to talk to her husband about a boat dock, but Linda said that he wasn't home, so I just left."

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Okay, your name is written in her blood.

• 12:29Ashley Flowers?

  But he, I don't think he's pieced that together yet. Like, I don't think he knows that she's the neighbor who saw him. I mean, he knows what he did to Linda. So I think in his mind, she should not be alive. Linda is dead. So calm, cool, and collected, he just answers their questions and acts like this is some big misunderstanding. The sheriff asks Ernest if he has any weapons at home. Ernest mentions like two or three long guns, and the sheriff's like, "Well, yeah, but what about a handgun?" Now Ernest thinks for a while, and he's like, "Well, oh, yeah, I do have this 22. It's in a toolbox in the basement." Perfect. So he's taken to the station, and somewhere between when he's put in the back of the sheriff's car and when he gets to the station before the recorded interview with him begins,

• 13:13Ashley Flowers?

  investigators give him a heads up. Like, "Oh, by the way, it wasn't just a neighbor who saw you on her porch. It was the victim herself who ID'd you. And by the way, we're getting a warrant to search your house for that gun and anything else we can find." And also, before their interview starts with him, they're getting as much background on Ernest as they can. But honestly, the more they learn about this guy, the more shocked they are by this crime. And the more they have to be thanking their lucky stars that Linda survived, because without her, I don't know if they would have ever gotten to Ernest. Because 58-year-old Ernest does not fit the profile of a violent offender that they might have gone looking for. Because he's been married to the same woman for his whole adult life.

• 13:57Ashley Flowers?

  They have two kids, grandkids, and he has no adult criminal record that they can find. Know what else they can't find? Any connection to Linda. I mean, aside from living a minute away from her, they don't seem to really know one another or have any history. I mean, like Linda and her husband would wave to Ernest when they would walk their dogs, but that was it. And even in that, like barely any words are spoken between them, and Ernest was never alone with Linda or anything like that. So by the time Kentucky State Police investigators get in a room with Ernest, hours after his arrest, they are dying to get to the heart of their questions. Why? And I'll warn you. What you're about to hear,

• 14:41Ashley Flowers?

  the actual interview audio between Ernest and the detectives, it is explicit and troubling.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Okay. My name is Detective Jason Fokes with the Kentucky State Police. The date is August 26, 2008. Time is 1:35 hours Eastern Standard Time. We're currently in the Breckenridge County Sheriff's Department. Myself and Detective Matt Johnson with Kentucky State Police will be attempting to interview Ernest Pan. Ernest Pan.

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• 17:20Speaker 02

  Are you currently under any influence of alcohol or any drugs or anything like that?

• 17:24Speaker 03

  I'm not. I'm going to the wine tonight, but don't...

• 17:27Speaker 02

  You're not intoxicated or anything like that? We'd like to talk to you about incident that night and why you're here. Would you be willing to talk to us about that?

• 17:37Speaker 03

  I'm not real sure what the incident is, but...

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Do you have any idea why you're in here?

• 17:43Speaker 03

  I don't know. My neighbor was a thought, but instead it was me.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Uh-huh.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  And that's all I know.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  I've been in the back of a car ever since then.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  All right. Who was this neighbor that said this?

• 17:57Speaker 03

  Well, she's crossed the street down two houses.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Okay, and how did you, uh, learn that she said that you were assaulted?

• 18:07Speaker 03

  When the sheriff called me on the phone and said, "Come over to your house."

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Okay, did he tell you what the accusation was?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  She said she assaulted and she said I did.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Okay, um, did you in fact, uh, assault Miss **** tonight? Have you been over to Miss ****'s house tonight?

• 18:26Speaker 03

  I went over because I want to talk to her husband.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  What were you going to talk to him about?

• 18:31Speaker 03

  He builds boat docks and I just got, recently got home from it.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  And the guy that said he was gonna do it, he was gonna put it in this weekend and he hadn't shown up yet. So I wanted to talk to him about it.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  What did she tell you?

• 18:47Speaker 03

  He went home.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Okay, and then what happened?

• 18:50Speaker 03

  Nah, I went back home.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Okay, so you went back home, what did you do when you went back home?

• 18:56Speaker 03

  Kept dinner, I was sitting down watching TV.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  You remember what you were watching?

• 19:02Speaker 03

  No.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  You live at home by yourself?

• 19:06Speaker 03

  My wife.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Okay, is your wife at home in on?

• 19:09Speaker 03

  No, she's listening to right now the dog show.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Have, um, how long have you lived at the residence where you live now?

• 19:20Speaker 03

  About a year, I'm not sure, I mean, we just got the house built.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Do you know, I mean, you have any other acquaintance with, with the ****?

• 19:30Speaker 03

  We've talked to him two or three times.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  That just casual conversation or?

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Walking down the street, we'd be walking down the street, "How are you doing?"

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Why do you think if she was assaulted, would she name you as being the person that assaulted her?

• 19:48Speaker 03

  Just the fact that I did it at her front door.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Of course, the reason you're here is pretty serious.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  She's at the University of Louisville Hospital right now as we speak. And she's said, told several people that you were the person that did this to her. However, you're saying that's not true. Is that correct?

• 20:16Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Uh, why would she accuse you of doing this if you didn't have anything to do with it?

• 20:26Speaker 03

  I would say, I went to her door. Maybe she thought I'd come back. I don't know. You know, we know what's been done, what's happened. We'll find out what's happened. That's what we do. I mean, that's our job. But we talk to people all the time because it's kind of, it's not normal behavior. It's kind of, there's always a reason that something happens. And we want to try to find out why, so we can prevent it from happening again.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Here's, here's the situation we're in, Mr. Fyne. We're gonna search your residence and we're gonna search [BLEEP] residence for evidence. And we're gonna find evidence in those places, okay? The evidence, I believe, is gonna show that you're not telling us the truth right now. I believe that the evidence that we're gonna find, the statements that we're getting from other people is gonna show that what you're telling us is not the truth. That you, in fact, did go over to [BLEEP] house and assault her tonight.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  I hope that you're not the type of person that goes out here and sits and thinks up horrible, deviant, terrible things to do to people that preys on, on innocent people out here and, and, and, and just tries to torture them and do terrible things to them. I would rather think that you're the person that made a simple mistake tonight. And just did something that was totally out of character and would not normally do.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  But the evidence is gonna show that, that you were there and that you had something to do with this. And I need to know from you which type of person you are. If you're that evil type of person that I'm thinking about on this end, or if you just made a mistake tonight and did something that was totally out of character. It would never happen again.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  Yes, it was. It's not worth it. So I don't think the evidence is much.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Okay. When we go in there and we find evidence in your home, on your person, in [BLEEP] house that shows that you're not telling us the truth, how do you think a prosecutor and a judge is gonna view that? Are they gonna say, "This is the type of person that made a mistake"? Or they're gonna say, "This is the type of person that straight up lied to those detectives when he knew good and well that there was evidence that showed he had done something like this"? What do you think a prosecutor is gonna think? What do you think a jury is gonna think about something like that?

• 23:11Speaker 03

  If you had a bunch of evidence, I guess it's, have to say I did it. Except if we, except if we laid out a bunch of evidence here for you, then that might change your view on it, if that was your calling us. I don't know what evidence you can do. You surprise here's the situation, but we're talking with you here, 'cause it's what we do. But, uh, there's not a particular reason why we have to be talking to you.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  This is your opportunity to help yourself. The good thing here is that she hasn't died, okay?

• 23:43Speaker 03

  See, I'll tell you this too, if she was sexually assaulted, you ought to take her to a hospital and have her go into a state.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Because if I don't take a pill, then nothing gonna happen.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  So if I don't have some of the levitri in me, then there wouldn't have been a sexual assault in the first place.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Did I say you stuck your penis inside of her?

• 24:04Speaker 03

  Okay, what's a sexual assault?

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Well, any type of assault that involves her. Any type of assault that involves her sexually. That involves her vagina.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Her anus.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  To me, a sexual assault would be a rape.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  Okay, well then, then say you didn't sexually assault.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  Well, we.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, that's what she's saying.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  Well, that's because we're, we have a misunderstanding.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  All, all we've got is what she's saying, okay? May, maybe you tell us something a little different than the.

• 24:34Speaker 03

  Well, it's my word against hers.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Not exactly.

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Cause, cause I mean, there's gonna be evidence, it's gonna corroborate what she said.

• 24:41Speaker 03

  If she's saying it was a sexual assault. What was the sexual assault?

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Well, she's saying that, that you stuck some things up in her vagina and her anus. Some foreign objects.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  That may not be sexual assault.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  I mean, it could, we could. Very well, if that wasn't for sexual gratification. Might not be sexual assault. But what we're saying is this is what she's telling us, okay? We're here to talk to you and get your side of the story.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  You're just talking my side of the story.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  That's what you're saying though, but.

• 25:12Speaker 04

  You're, you're, you're, you're, Mr. Fine, you're, you don't understand that. Ninety-five percent of the communication that your body gives off is nonverbal. Okay, we've been doing this enough. I know you're very nervous.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  And you've been, and you've been trained probably in the military about talking about things like.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  I'm not like, I'm bow and then look at our.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  So, no, I, I, I'm, I'm no different, I'm no different than you are, okay?

• 25:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, y'all could be one day, end up to do that same period to you. But, that, does that make me a bad person?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  It, it, it might go with my kids. Thinking that daddy's a bad person. And might go with my wife. Thinking that their husband's a bad person. That's what it comes down to, Mr. Fine. If you're not a bad person. We know that. But right now, all that we have is to take her side of the story. And that's putting you as a terrible person, and that's all these people are gonna hear. Except he's saying, "Wasn't me. Didn't do it. Got no alibi, no evidence to prove it." "And then only when you prove it, and I'm backed into a corner, and I've got no other options, then I'll say I did it."

• 26:25Speaker 04

  If you're an outside person, you see somebody do that, what you gonna think? You're gonna think, "That man is not sorry. That man's gonna do it again, and the only reason he finally fessed up to it was because he knew he had no other option." And that's the only reason. And that person there deserves no sympathy, deserves no help in the process, and should be thrown out to the [bleep] for all we care. Get rid of him. That's the one less person we need in this world. That's what those people think.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  You know what? They're gonna get on the stand and point you out and say, "He's the one that did it. He did this to me. We're gonna show pictures of what happened. We're gonna listen to her story about what happened. We're gonna present the evidence that we're probably gonna find here in a short while against you." And you're gonna get up there and say, "I don't know what she's talking about. It wasn't me. I walked back home. That's it. I don't know what else to tell you, other than it's my word against hers. Take that." I'll tell you what's gonna happen to you. A jury member's gonna sit up there and listen to that and go, "He's full of crap. He's lying. He's lying, just like he lied to those detectives."

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Right there. And if that's what you wanna do, by all means, that's fine. Because I'll tell you what.

• 27:45Ashley Flowers?

  Challenge accepted. If Ernest Pine wasn't gonna talk, the evidence would do the talking for him.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  I mean, what more do they even need, though? Linda wrote his name in blood.

• 27:56Ashley Flowers?

  If I need to say one more time? And she's telling any living soul she came in contact with before she was airlifted off that it was him. But like, you heard the man. He framed this as a he said, she said situation. And we unfortunately live in a world that requires a hell of a lot more than the word of a woman. So buckle up. Let's go get that irrefutable proof that no one can argue with. Starting with Ernest's own body. By the time their interview with him ended, they had a warrant to search him and collect his DNA. And while he sat in that room talking to them, he had this cut on his thumb and scratches on his lower back.

• 28:36Ashley Flowers?

  And blood on his watch and more smeared on one of his shoes, the shoes he is wearing. And back at Ernest's house, they find that 22 caliber handgun that he told them was in the toolbox in the basement. There is still blood on that and it is jammed, just like Linda said. It turns out that it jammed because Ernest loaded it with the wrong ammo. But the ammo that they found matched the 22 caliber rounds still lodged in Linda's utility room wall. Ernest also had multiple hunting knives in his place, one of which had human blood still on it. And there were sandals with blood still on them too, that matched a tread of a bloody footprint found at the crime scene.

• 29:20Ashley Flowers?

  And not just like in her house in general, at the entrance of the utility room where Linda was attacked. They collected zip ties that matched what Linda described in her account, along with green rope tied into a noose and even more smudges of blood around his house. In her home, they also took into evidence the multiple items that were used to sexually assault her. And make no mistake, Ernest can sell his bullshit story all he wants, that if he didn't use his penis, like, does that really count as assault? Yes. Absolutely. And the detectives might have been trying to like play along to get him to confess, but they agreed too, because

• 29:59Ashley Flowers?

  anyone, anyone who hears what he did with those objects knows what a sick and twisted monster Ernest actually is. And the fact that he couldn't use his limp dick doesn't change a thing for me. Now Linda had to undergo an almost 19 hour surgery where she needed about 17 pints of blood for a blood transfusion and hundreds of stitches. Her husband told us that doctors said the knife missed her vital organs by millions. And I tell you all of this, Linda's story, the details of it, not to be overly graphic for entertainment or shock value. We asked Linda's permission to go into detail and she allowed it because she and we want

• 30:41Ashley Flowers?

  you to know exactly who Ernest Pine is. She and her family want you to really understand what he is capable of and what kind of threat that he could be to other women out there. Because at Ernest's indictment hearing in 2008, the one where he gets slapped with seven charges, Linda's family learns for the first time that she may not have been his first victim. Now Linda and her husband, they didn't go to that. She was still recovering, so her husband's dad went in their place. And so he was the one who first felt this big mix of emotions, thrilled as he came in that this man would be facing real charges.

• 31:24Ashley Flowers?

  And then horror when the strangest thing happened right before the hearing started, something that you won't find in any of the case files or reporting. Linda's father-in-law happened to sit right behind this guy at the hearing that he didn't know. And this guy turned around and asked him if this was the courtroom that Ernest Pine was gonna be in. Linda's father-in-law said yes and went on to explain Linda's case a little. And the next thing that came out of the other man's mouth set a chilling and ominous tone for the next year to follow while they waited for a trial. According to Linda's family, the other man said that he was there for his daughter-in-law

• 32:03Ashley Flowers?

  too, because he believed 16 years before Linda's attack, Ernest murdered her.

• 32:11Speaker 01

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• 33:25Speaker 01

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• 34:13Ashley Flowers?

  Linda's father-in-law was shocked to hear this. I mean, Ernest had never been convicted of any other crimes, let alone murder. And the truth is, as far as I can tell, for all of the years before this, Ernest was never even a suspect in this other woman's case. The only reason this other man learned about him and knew to show up to this hearing was because, allegedly, that man said a state trooper called him the night before this indictment hearing and described how Linda was found. And when he heard the details, it was almost unbelievable.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  So for police to call this guy, I mean, that means they must be seeing the similarities too.

• 34:53Ashley Flowers?

  They're hard to miss. And police later said as much to local press. And when our team dug into her case, I was shocked at what they found. So this other woman was 29-year-old Elena Sanchez Hawkins. And 16 years before Linda's attack and just an hour away from Rough River Lake in Elizabeth Town, Kentucky, Elena was raising two little boys with her husband, Mike. The date was January 8th, 1992. And that day started off like any other. Elena woke up her eight-year-old for school, made him breakfast, walked him out to the front porch to watch him get on his bus at around 7:00 a.m. Her husband, Mike, was already at work, but he called like he did every morning to check in and make sure the morning was going smoothly. And on that 7:00 a.m. call, everything was fine.

• 35:39Ashley Flowers?

  But an hour or two later, Elena's sister told us that Mike called his wife back because he had won some radio contest and gotten a free dinner. He was excited about it, wanted to tell her about it. But when he called, the phone was just ringing and ringing and ringing with no answer. Which was odd. I mean, Elena worked mostly nights at a gas station, so she could be home with their three-year-old son during the day, so she usually was there to pick up. So he tried calling back again. And this time, the call was picked up, but it wasn't Elena on the other end. It was his three-year-old's voice that he heard. And Mike's like, "Okay, hey, put mom on the phone." And what his son said next is still burned into my brain. Mama's bleeding.

• 36:20Ashley Flowers?

  I don't think Mike's brain tried to make excuses. He didn't ask more questions. He just immediately left work and raced home to a scene that I am sure continued to haunt him throughout his life. Elena was lying, half on the couch, covered in blood with her hands tied behind her back, and her throat was slit from ear to ear. And there was truly blood everywhere. Now thankfully, their son had been left physically unharmed, so Mike scooped him up and called 911. The crime in 92 Elizabeth Town was just as shocking as Linda's would eventually be in Rough River Lake in 2008. It didn't matter that this was a bigger city. This just didn't happen here.

• 37:03Ashley Flowers?

  And police were quickly stumped by the crime. Now it seemed like Elena knew her killer because there was no forced entry. And even though this was a pretty rural neighborhood where people didn't always lock their doors, a family member told us that Elena usually did, especially when Mike was gone. They also remembered there being glass in the door and there was definitely a window next to the door. So Elena would have been able to see whoever was on the other side.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Right. It's not like it was just like a solid wall and she was blindly opening.

• 37:30Ashley Flowers?

  Right. And also, nothing seemed to be taken from the house. So killing Elena seemed to be the only goal. But there was no one in Elena's life who raised suspicions. I mean, obviously, they looked at Mike because as we know, they always check the husband. But he had a solid alibi. He was at work. So he was cleared pretty quickly. And police didn't believe that he had anything to do with her death. Not that he just didn't do it. He didn't arrange it. Nothing. And as they made their way through others close to the family, no suspects emerged. Or at least none that have ever been reported on or that the family knew about. Because the case is still unsolved, all of our records requests and interview requests were denied by law enforcement.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  And did her son see anything?

• 38:12Ashley Flowers?

  Mike's brother told us that at some point in the morning, the son had pulled up a chair in the kitchen to get a snack out of the fridge or like off the counter or something. And in that moment, the little boy remembered seeing a man in the house. Now, we weren't able to talk to Elena's younger son. So exactly what he saw the man doing, if he even remembers, is unclear. But it must have been something that spooked him because one of Mike's brothers told us that eventually he went into a bedroom and hid inside a toy box.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  But you'd think if it was someone that the family knew, even at three, he might have been able to like recognize them or remember who they were.

• 38:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. I mean, like my daughter is just coming out of the three stage. I think she could, but like also our brains are capable of shielding a lot to like protect us from trauma. So who knows at that young of an age?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  What about any neighbors around? I mean, this is happening in the morning on a weekday. People are driving to work out and about, like there's people around, right?

• 39:08Ashley Flowers?

  This crime was so bold. According to a local paper called The News Enterprise, investigators believe that she died sometime between 7:00 a.m. and 10:00 a.m. And I mean, we looked up her address and from what we could tell, it was kind of a rural area outside of town. The houses were pretty spread apart. So, again, bold for time of day, like people could just come by, mailman, whatever. But I do think that like this attacker was protected in the fact that like there was not like a next door neighbor the way there are in like a lot of suburbs that you see. But even though the neighbors were spread apart, like police talked to as many people as they could. They even set up a roadblock to question anyone who drove past Elena's house in the morning on their way to work.

• 39:50Ashley Flowers?

  And from all of that, they did find someone who came forward saying that they saw a black Nissan Datsun pickup truck parked in Elena's driveway. Now, they didn't see a person or anything, but the truck is important because as far as we can tell, police were never able to connect anyone in her circle or beyond to that kind of car. So eventually, it was considered that this could be everyone's nightmare scenario. Just this random roaming psychopath who targeted Elena for who knows what reason. Was it just that day that he saw her? Had he been watching her? Now, a few of her loved ones told us that in the weeks leading up to her murder,

• 40:32Ashley Flowers?

  Elena did mention this weird guy that was watching her during her night shifts at the gas station she worked at nearby. During her shifts, Elena sat in one of those like glass boxes in the middle. People could like drive up to her if they wanted to buy something. And this weird guy would drive by, but he would never talk to her or anything like that. He would just stare at her. Now, everyone we talked to said Elena wasn't somebody who got scared easily and she could stand up for herself. But this guy freaked her out. Enough that even though the door to her box was locked, she would call Mike and his brothers and ask them to come down when this guy showed up. But every single time they got to the gas station, the guy was gone.

• 41:14Ashley Flowers?

  As far as everyone remembers now, Elena never described this guy or what he was driving. And it doesn't seem like police were ever able to track this guy down either.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  But if the gas station guy somehow figured out where she lived and showed up at her house, like you said, like she could see out in front of the door before she opened it. I doubt she would have opened the door for someone that was already creeping her out.

• 41:35Ashley Flowers?

  I don't think so.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  So circling this back to Linda, what are all the similarities? And what, like, if anything, is different in these two situations?

• 41:46Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so first of all, everyone we talked to who has seen both Elena and Linda told us that they looked a lot alike. Both women were dark haired, tan, short, like around five feet tall. Both women were bound, both had their throats cut. Now, as far as we know, Elena wasn't tied using zip ties. One of Mike's brothers remembers that it was a cord from the blinds. So her attacker seems a little less prepared than Ernest was with Linda 16 years later. And I can't tell you if the same type of weapon was used because just like Ernest took the knife with him, Elena's attacker did the same thing. Also, they were each attacked in their home. A child was present in each case, which might be a coincidence, but we know in Linda's

• 42:31Ashley Flowers?

  case that Ernest used her granddaughter as leverage to make her comply. Could Elena's killer have done the same thing? Like, I wonder if a child in the home was something they were looking for rather than just like-

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Right, like knowing they could use that kind of against their victim.

• 42:47Ashley Flowers?

  Rather than just like something that happened to be there, right? Now, we know that Linda was sexually assaulted, but it's not totally clear if Elena was. I mean, according to what KSP had told other reporters in the past, she was. But Elena's brother told us something totally different. He said that he talked to someone in the coroner's office who told him that based on what she read in the report, she didn't think Elena was sexually assaulted.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Well, whose definition are we using here too, right? Because you also have Ernest over here saying that what he did to Linda wasn't sexual assault. And we know that's total BS.

• 43:23Ashley Flowers?

  Right, and I've seen- Before people, even like in an official capacity, interpret like a lack of semen as a sign. So yes, if she too was assaulted with an object, my question would be, was there trauma left behind?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Well, I feel like the one thing that seems obvious is that there for sure was no semen. Or we'd be talking about like DNA all these years later, right?

• 43:41Ashley Flowers?

  That might actually be wrong. Which I know sounds bananas, but without police cooperation, I can't like really tell 30 years later. So like I said, um, there is old reporting that has KSP saying that she was assaulted and they have DNA, they said, in that same stuff. They don't explicitly say that it was from the sexual assault kit. And in talking with Elena's family so many years later, like different people remember different things. One person remembered that the DNA at the crime scene was semen. Another said that they thought it was maybe like skin from underneath Elena's fingernails. They had something. Whatever they had, whatever they were able to do with that in the early 90s, it didn't go anywhere. And so Elena's case went cold quickly.

• 44:26Ashley Flowers?

  Now, in 2004, Elena's husband, Mike, ended up passing away from surgery complications. And that same year, police told the family that they had stopped testing the DNA they had because they didn't want to destroy the little bit they had left. So Elena's loved ones, including her kids, who now have lost both parents so young, they were just left hoping that someday, somehow, they would get the answers that they'd been waiting so long for. So four years after that, when they get word about Linda's attack and Ernest, they get this surge of hope. Maybe this is it. And this is when I told you that police came out in the press and even they said that they saw the same similarities.

• 45:09Ashley Flowers?

  This is why Elena's father-in-law went to Ernest's indictment hearing, where he met Linda's father-in-law. And he probably planned to attend the trial. But a trial never happened.

• 45:23Ashley Flowers?

  In the 10 months after the attack on Linda, Ernest ends up seeing the writing on the wall. And just like detectives, probes, and Johnson said he would do, Ernest waited till he was backed into a corner before he finally admitted what he'd done. On June 17, 2009, about 10 months after Linda was attacked, Ernest pleads guilty to first-degree burglary, attempted murder, first-degree rape, and first-degree sodomy, kidnapping, first-degree criminal mischief, and second-degree assault. Now, the judge gives him sentences for all of those things, but allows him to serve them concurrently instead of consecutively.

• 46:09Ashley Flowers?

  So that means he isn't stacking time for each count back to back. He gets to serve one term, the longest one, 20 years.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  You know, it never ceases to amaze me how you get a lighter sentence for attempted murder, like just trying to murder someone.

• 46:26Ashley Flowers?

  Because you like didn't do it right?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:28Ashley Flowers?

  Like you told her she was going to die that day. You kept coming back to the room and stabbing her to make sure she was dead.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  It was kind of multiple attempted murders of one person.

• 46:38Ashley Flowers?

  And just because by some miracle she survived, you get out of prison to maybe do this again to somebody? Like, what are we?

• 46:46Speaker 01

  It doesn't make any sense.

• 46:47Ashley Flowers?

  What are we doing here? And it is the strangest thing to me because once he goes away for his attack on Linda, all of the talk about the similarities to Elena's case just stops. And to date, no official connection between Ernest and Elena has ever been made.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Wait, so it wasn't his DNA?

• 47:07Ashley Flowers?

  I didn't say that. I don't know if it was because police wouldn't talk to us. And even the family has never, like Elena's family, has never been able to get a straight answer about this either. They have asked, and they just keep getting the same party line that they have gotten for years. This case is unsolved and open, and investigators are waiting for technology to move forward before they can retest that DNA.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Actually had a DNA profile to compare, they would at least come out and confirm it's not him, right?

• 47:37Ashley Flowers?

  You would think, but at least one family member told us that they remember police testing the DNA they had against a few people back in the day. Now, they don't know who was tested or cleared from that, and we couldn't confirm that, so I don't know. Like, there is something so confusing

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:53Ashley Flowers?

  about the DNA stuff in Elena's case to me. Like, something does not feel right.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  Well, I kind of wonder if maybe they're waiting till closer to the time that Ernest is set to be released. Like, that gives them kind of a ton of time to make a really solid case against him if they think it's him. Like, he's safely behind bars, he can't hurt anybody else, they have this, like, chance to really develop.

• 48:14Ashley Flowers?

  He was safely behind bars. This is

• 48:18Speaker 01

  That's past tense?

• 48:20Ashley Flowers?

  This is what I'm saying about this episode. This is how I got put on this case. Ernest got an early release this summer.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Early release this summer, he's out.

• 48:30Ashley Flowers?

  On August 19th, 2025, Ernest Pine was released on parole after serving only 17 of his 20-year sentence for Linda's attack.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was trying to do the math, I'm not good at it. How is that even possible? How does a guy like this, who did something like that, get out?

• 48:49Ashley Flowers?

  Like, to me, you already got a gift by getting to serve them

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Right, like, just

• 48:52Ashley Flowers?

  concurrently.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. He's already getting kind of a pass.

• 48:56Ashley Flowers?

  Uh huh. So, he got to serve them concurrently, and under Kentucky's violent offender law, you can be considered for parole after you serve 85% of your sentence. In this case, 20-year sentence, that's about 17 years. Now, our sources said that Ernest spent a lot of time, like, leading Bible study and Sunday School while he was in prison too, which they believe the parole board, like, like

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Model citizen

• 49:23Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, when they approved his release.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Ashley, I'm sorry. I don't care how many Bible studies he led, you don't get to torture a woman and then shave literal years off your prison time just because you said your prayers.

• 49:38Ashley Flowers?

  Amen.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  And by the way, it's like

• 49:42Ashley Flowers?

  Sure, forgiveness, second chances, whatever, but I have a hard time believing that Ernest like found God in prison because he knew the guy's number before he went away. A source close to Ernest's own family, who asked to stay anonymous, told us that at some point after Ernest moved to Elizabeth Town, like way back in 1986, we're talking even before Elena's case, he and his wife joined the praise band at this mega church, a mega church that, oh, by the way, is located in Elizabeth Town, just two and a half miles away from the gas station where Elena worked, according to her brother-in-law.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Wait, so Ernest for sure has a connection to the area where Elena lived back in 92.

• 50:23Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, we learned that he lived in the same town as Elena when she was murdered in 1992, not just before, in 1992. And the potential ties don't stop there.

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• 52:37Ashley Flowers?

  So when we found out that Ernest lived in Elizabeth Town in 1992, right away, we began to wonder, did he know Elena?

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:46Ashley Flowers?

  It doesn't seem like it, or at least, it does not seem like she knew him. But then, we talked to that source who was close to Ernest's family, and they had a few theories on how Ernest and Elena's paths could have crossed. So Ernest was in the Army, which is what brought him to Kentucky. He was actually stationed at Fort Knox before he retired, and then he moved into a house only about five miles away from Elena's. And our source told us that after Ernest retired, he was having a really hard time finding a job. So for a while, he delivered pizzas for Domino's. And of course, like, we don't know where he delivered pizzas or anything like that.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  I do imagine that you called Domino's and like, "Hi, could I get..."

• 53:24Ashley Flowers?

  We cannot confirm. But our, the source that we talked to kind of has always wondered if he could have maybe delivered a pizza to the Hawkins' house or in their neighborhood. Like, that's a bit of a stretch to me. This is less so, though. The source also said that when Ernest started working at a nearby brake factory, he would work the night shift and then get off early in the morning. And remember, when he was arrested after Linda's assault, a deputy said that he smelled alcohol on his breath in the patrol car, right?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:55Ashley Flowers?

  Well, our source went on to claim that Ernest had a drinking problem that he hid from his family. So he would usually drink during the day after his shift ended, while they were all out of the house. But Elizabeth Town was a dry town at the time, so you could only buy alcohol in Boston, Kentucky, which was like the next town over. And if what our source told us is true, which we have not been able to confirm yet, to get to Boston from the brake factory or his house, Ernest would have had to have drive right past Elena's house. And that probably would have been right around the time that she was putting her son on the bus to school in the morning. And remember that truck that someone saw in her driveway the day she died?

• 54:39Speaker 01

  In the black Datsun?

• 54:40Ashley Flowers?

  Well, our source told us that Ernest had bought his daughter a tan or beige Chevy S10 sometime before that. Now, if you look at the photos, an S10 looks really similar to a Datsun.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't know if you could confuse those colors, though, right?

• 54:57Ashley Flowers?

  Big difference, but I did look it up, and sunrise that day would have been at around 8:00 a.m. So if Elena is attacked sometime like between 7:00 and 10:00, 7:30 and 10:00, it may have still been dark when that witness spotted the truck.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, it seems worth tracking down the truck, at least just to like get eyes on it, like...

• 55:17Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, I don't know if police ever like did, because when a reporter looked into this and shared our source's information with current detectives, we were told that they still have not followed up.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Wouldn't they have talked to his family, though, at some point during the investigation into Linda's case?

• 55:33Ashley Flowers?

  They tried? So in our records request, there was one audio file from when detectives went to the home of Ernest's daughter and her husband. They didn't want to talk then. And they basically direct police to Ernest's lawyer, some guy named Roger and his associates, because it sounds like when they tried to answer questions before, people in their family were not happy with them. Take a listen.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  I guess it's your South, too. Yeah. Okay. What we want to do, are you, your [BLEEP] is that right? And Ernest, your dad?

• 56:07Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Okay, alright. What we want to do, sit down and talk to you and your mom, uh, for a little while. We'd absolutely, if Roger, or if y'all have an attorney representing you all.

• 56:19Speaker 04

  We'll do, we can do that, basically. You know, you know what, what we, what I told you the other morning and everything that you were saying. And, and hopefully, we were wanting to be able to, you know, talk and make, answer a few more of your questions and just find out, basically, we, we just don't know why this has really happened. And, uh, I mean, that's what we're trying to find out. We know we don't have a clue why. Uh, I mean, we know the who, what, when, where, we just don't know why. And, uh, and, uh, you know, we just, basically, just wanted to find out, you know, if your dad had any mental, uh, issues in the past, or's on any medications, or has a history of alcoholism, or has been abusive in the past, or anything like this stuff, just small stuff like that with your family.

• 57:03Speaker 04

  Just basically, you and your mom, questions you could answer. Um, and that's really about all it was.

• 57:08Speaker 05

  Okay. Well, since I have basically gotten my tape, the cap of tape, for my freaking life, I hope for this, so, um, let me just get back your contact, I send, and then, I guess, call you all back and let you know.

• 57:23Ashley Flowers?

  As far as I can tell, Ernest's daughter did not call them back. And actually, out of all of our attempts to reach his children, or ex-wife, or him directly so he could respond to allegations, this was the only response we got. A voicemail.

• 57:38Speaker 06

  Yes, I'm calling on behalf of the letter you sent to Ernie Pine. Um, your information is inaccurate. He is not interested in speaking of you, with either of you, on anything, and please stop harassing him. Thank you.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Who was that?

• 57:53Ashley Flowers?

  We don't know. She didn't say. Maybe someone close to him could be a family member? I mean, we were told that Ernest's family stood by him after Linda's attack.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Stood by him? How?

• 58:06Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, like, they might not even believe that he did it.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  How can you, like, make yourself believe that? There's a literal mountain of evidence in this case.

• 58:16Ashley Flowers?

  I know. I like, I get how hard it would be to accept that your husband or your dad did something that heinous. But there's also a bit of a line for me, like denial, trauma. Families of predators can be victims too, do not get me wrong. But when you help shield them from accountability, that is when I think you're crossing over.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 58:38Ashley Flowers?

  Well, so Linda's attack left her with serious medical debt. Before she was even discharged, they had a quarter of a million dollar lien on their house, and it took her husband 10 years to pay that off. And like, I just want to take a second because this is the side of these cases that does not get talked about enough, in my opinion. Survivors don't just have their physical well-being taken from them, and their emotional and mental health totally wrecked, their safety taken away. Like, on top of all of that-

• 59:08Speaker 01

  It's like the logistics of it.

• 59:09Ashley Flowers?

  They often have to pay-

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:11Ashley Flowers?

  Literal money for what their attacker did with money they often don't have. A crime like this seriously just like rips apart every aspect of your life.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think about in this case, like, can't they sue Ernest? Like, he had money, right?

• 59:27Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, we were told by our source that he did. But Linda's husband told us that none of that money has gone to her. So this is what played out. So Linda had to wait for the criminal trial to end, or like, all of that, before they could actually file a civil suit.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:41Ashley Flowers?

  And her husband told us that during that time, Ernest and his wife got divorced, and his assets were all transferred to her.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 59:50Ashley Flowers?

  So, from what he can tell, all Ernest has now to his name is his pension, which I guess is protected, which, I didn't know that that's how it worked, but that's still his. And Linda's husband told us that he did try to fight for that money, money that Linda deserves, but they just couldn't keep up the fight because lawyers cost too much.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you need money to get the money.

• 1:00:10Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, now, on the one hand, what I'll say is like, in any other scenario like this, where, say, the wife and family are blindsided, it would be like the wife's whole life savings up in smoke too. And I'm not saying the perp's family has to be left destitute if they did not know anything or did not participate, like, but neither should Linda.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Right. Like you said earlier, there are lots of victims in this case.

• 1:00:32Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and I haven't seen anything in the source material to suggest that they got a dime to help. So it feels to me like everyone on Ernest's side chose to support Ernest and protect themselves. And as cruel as the financial burden has been on Linda and her family, the emotional toll is seriously just as real. Linda lives with physical and emotional challenges from the trauma, like I said. She is now back in therapy because Ernest has been released and it has brought all of this back up for her. I mean, ever since that night, 2008, Linda has never been left alone. She is always with her husband or a trusted friend or family member. And her husband has faced his own challenges too.

• 1:01:16Ashley Flowers?

  He had a stroke in 2013 and his doctors told him that all of this stress and worry that he carries could have been a factor. But you know what? He told us that he loves Linda. They have been married for 47 years now and he would do anything to protect her and their family. When Linda's husband went to one of Ernest's hearings after his parole, he said that in his opinion, Ernest didn't even show any remorse, even after all these years. And he has never made any kind of formal apology to Linda or her family. One of those hearings was about a no-contact stay-away order, which meant that Ernest couldn't be anywhere near Linda or her granddaughter for like 10 years.

• 1:01:59Ashley Flowers?

  But Linda's husband told us that when the judge asked him if he understood that, he didn't even answer. So the judge had to ask him again, like, "Do you understand that?" And he says, like, "Yeah, I get it." Which to Linda's family felt like he was not taking it seriously. And so now, that neighbor who left Linda for dead, lives just about an hour away from her. Even though he is 75 years old now, we know what he's capable of. And there is so much anger and fear that you can feel from everyone who has been affected by this case. And Elena's family lives with that same anger and fear because her killer, whoever he is, is still out there somewhere.

• 1:02:45Ashley Flowers?

  Elena didn't get the chance to name her killer. And her family told us the little that's out there about her doesn't even begin to paint a picture of who she was. So I do want to share a few of their memories. They said Elena never met a stranger, like she loved people and she loved to sing. That's actually her voice you're hearing from a recording that her sister shared with us.

• 1:03:14Ashley Flowers?

  She was her son's best friend and the sister everyone wishes they had. And girl was 4'11", but she may as well have been like eight feet tall. Like, nothing scared her. She never backed down from a fight to protect the people she loved. And Elena's son told us that he has never given up on getting justice for his mom. And until the day he dies, he is going to keep looking for her killer. Maybe that killer thinks he'll never be caught. But if someone out there listening knows something that can change that, you need to come forward now. You can either call the Kentucky State Police Post 4, or you can email us, [email protected], and we'll forward it on. We'll be putting KSP Post 4 information and our tips email in the show notes.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  If you or someone you know has experienced sexual violence, you can contact RAINN's National Sexual Abuse Hotline. We'll have their number and other resources for survivors of sexual assault in our show notes.

• 1:04:23Ashley Flowers?

  You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com. And if you want to listen to more episodes like this one and all of our episodes completely ad-free, be sure to join the fan club. You'll get early access to new episodes every week and bonus content every month. And content's like actual episodes, you guys.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

• 1:04:44Ashley Flowers?

  We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

• 1:05:10Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

• 1:05:19Speaker 07

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing: Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful: you never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.