Chris Appleton - ‘I Felt Shame Before I Felt Love’

Celebrity hair stylist Chris Appleton has a slew of devoted clients including Kim Kardashian, Kris Jenner and Martha Stewart, as well as millions of Instagram followers and a regular slot offering advice on The Drew Barrymore Show. His memoir, Your Roots Don’t Define You, is a New York Times bestseller. But growing up was hard on Appleton: he was the middle of five children and struggled with undiagnosed dyslexia at school. He was bullied by his classmates for being gay - something he didn’t yet understand about himself. At 16, he left school to work full-time and began a serious relationship with his colleague, Kate. By 19, he was a father. In this episode we discuss imposter syndrome, the darkest moments of his life, shame and the work he’s done to overcome the hurdles he’s faced. And, of course, we talk about the Kardashians. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 02:33 Imposter Syndrome as Fuel 04:24 Red Carpets and Online Pressure 05:27 Hair as Celebrity Identity 07:15 Memoir and Health Wake Up 08:48 Dash the Dog and Comfort 11:02 Shame Coming Out and Healing 22:26 Kids First After Divorce 23:05 Holiday Triggers and Boundaries 24:31 Success Doesn't Heal 25:18 Inner Child Healing Work 27:22 Envy Into Mentorship 30:08 Kardashians on Failure 31:25 Hair Identity and Change 35:18 Comparison and Social Media 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: It’s okay to make mistakes, but I love learning from them and understanding why we make those decisions. Hair is such a big part of people's identity. It tells who you are. You can externally excite yourself... But if you're not aligned internally, you still have that sad and lonely feeling. I think imposter syndrome to an extent is healthy... It keeps me turning up to jobs prepared. I treat every job like it's the first time I've done it. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Chris Appleton’s book Your Roots Don’t Define You, is out now Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Rylan Clark - on public breakdowns, surviving divorce and rebuilding his sense of self. Dawn French - on comedy, adoption and finding confidence later in life. 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Chris answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] _________________________________________________________________________ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I did hair, so people automatically assumed I was gay. I was only 12 or 13 when I got a job in a hair salon. The ultimate shame, which kind of led me to maybe my darkest time in my life and how shame really held me back was

• 0:15Speaker 00

  when I came out and I came out at the age of 26. Failure happens to everyone. But I think you have a choice and what you do with failure. And I think you can just be beaten down and give up. Or you can pick yourself up and dust yourself off and try again.

• 0:30Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that focuses on failure rather than success because we believe that's where you find your true self. Now, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode with Chris Appleton includes discussion of suicide. So please do take care while listening. Don't forget to subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single episode of How To Fail.

• 0:56Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 1:41Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 50 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Confession time. I have a tendency to postpone certain decisions for far longer than is sensible. Not the big life decisions, oddly enough, those I can usually handle. It's the smaller ones that somehow become disproportionately complicated. For me, rugs fall squarely.

• 2:10Elizabeth Day?

  Into that category. I've known for a long time that a rug can completely change how a room feels, but I've always found sizing for a space tricky. That's why Ernesta appealed to me. Ernesta makes designer quality rugs custom cut to the exact dimensions of your space. So instead of making do with something that's close enough, you're choosing something made specifically for your home. I also love the fact that you can order five oversized 12 by 12 samples for just $10 before committing and Ernesta's design team will help with sizing completely free of charge. Visit ernestacom and order five samples for only $10 and you'll get $50 towards any rug of your choice. That's ernestacom.

• 2:55Elizabeth Day?

  My guest today is a man Kim Kardashian credits with changing her life. He is Chris Appleton, one of the most sought after hairstylists in the world and responsible for iconic style statements such as Kardashian's wet look at the Met Gala in 2019 and J Lo's Superbowl blow dry that miraculously stayed bouncy throughout her performance. But for anyone assuming that Appleton's work is one of superficial frippery, his life tells a different story. He grew up the middle of five children in Leicester and struggled with undiagnosed dyslexia at school. Hair became a refuge and the place where he could explore his creativity.

• 3:40Elizabeth Day?

  By 13, he was working in a local salon and being badly bullied by his classmates for being gay, something Appleton didn't yet understand about himself. At 16, he left school to work full time and began a serious relationship with his colleague Kate. By 19, he was a father. In 2016, prompted by an email from Jennifer Lopez's team, he initially thought was a scam, he moved to Los Angeles. It was a move that would usher in a new age of success and self-acceptance. Now, Appleton has a slew of devoted clients, including Kris Jenner and Martha Stewart,

• 4:21Elizabeth Day?

  as well as millions of Instagram followers and a regular slot offering advice on the Drew Barrymore Show. His memoir, Your Roots Don't Define You, is a New York Times bestseller. And yet, for all his achievements, the kid inside has never left him.

• 4:39Elizabeth Day?

  I think imposter syndrome to an extent is healthy, Appleton says. I now have techniques to turn down that hater voice in my head from a ten to a two. But it does keep me turning up to jobs prepared. I treat every job like it's the first time I've done it. Chris Appleton, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me. What an introduction. Can you come everywhere?

• 5:02Elizabeth Day?

  I can one hundred percent come with you and be your hype girl.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like, oh, this guy sounds cool.

• 5:09Elizabeth Day?

  It is you. And I really appreciate what you say about imposter syndrome there. I hugely relate to it. And I think imposter syndrome gets a bad reputation.

• 5:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does.

• 5:22Elizabeth Day?

  But sometimes you're right that it keeps you driven.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does for me anyway. I mean, I think it has to be a healthy balance, which I think I've learned over over time. You know, because I think sometimes imposter syndrome, when it gets to the point where it paralyzes you, you know, it's unhealthy. But I think, you know, every job I do, I still have it. And I think it just motivates me to turn up to my best, want to do my best. I I I hope I never get to the point where I'm like, whatever, like, I know what I'm doing, you know. I was with the with my trainer the other day. And I had the it was the Golden Globes and I had Jennifer Lopez to do. And I said, I'm not nervous. I was apprehensive. And he said, why are you nervous, Chris Appleton? It's not your first rodeo. And I was like, I don't know. I guess I just.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  Your only as good as your last job sometimes, you know, I feel like the pressure to make sure that, you know, everyone always looks and feels their best. So, um, yeah, for me, it's motivation. I think it just I've learned techniques to be able to make it healthy.

• 6:20Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And I think sometimes having done the work and done the 10,000 hours.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:25Elizabeth Day?

  Even if you're nervous, you can fall back on knowing you have expertise.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 6:30Elizabeth Day?

  So were you happy with J Lo's Golden Globes?

• 6:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was great. It was so nice to see her again. It'd been a minute since we'd caught up, so it was nice. But, um, yeah, this just, you know, especially red carpets, there's so much pressure, you know. We live in a world now where, you know, the internet is an interesting place and.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  For me, it changed my life in a great way. And it helped me be visible, but you know, that visibility is also open to conversation. And you know, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But I think, you know, you know what you're signing yourself up for. I guess I definitely do. Um, so I think I have a healthy relationship with, you know, social media. But you know, when a celebrity goes out there, you are aware that everyone's gonna have an opinion on it. You know, and there's only so much control you have on a red carpet with the lighting or, you know, the weather conditions or whatever's going on.

• 7:21Elizabeth Day?

  We're going to get more into the function of hair and what it tells you and how it projects who you want to be and a sense of confidence. But I wonder if I could ask you a question, which is if hair could talk, what would it tell us about celebrity culture?

• 7:39Speaker 00

  I think probably that, you know, as much as anything, hair is just a huge part of your identity. It tells you who you are. If I say to you Marilyn Monroe, you know, you think of the platinum blonde bombshell hair, you know, people still reference it now. And if you think of, um, I don't know, chapel with her redhead, you know, curly hair, again, it's kind of signature or Lady Gaga with her, you know, she's always doing something different with her hair and it's extreme. But if you think of Taylor Swift, you think of that, you know, she's got the bangs and the beachy wave. Or, you know, the Kardashians with their rich brunette. I think hair is just such a big part of people's identity. Um, and in celebrity culture, obviously that identity changes a lot. And we're used to sort of seeing people, you know, looking different. And we're like, wow, you know, I didn't know bangs could look so good.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  And then the next day they're gone. So I think maybe it's just the power of reinvention and celebrities are maybe, you know, aware of that image and how it can change things up and create a different look. You know, if I'm working with J Lo, it's like, okay, who are you gonna be today? It's like, is it, is it like actress J Lo? Is she in a movie that she's sort of promoting or is, you know, musician J Lo, which is very different? Um, or, you know, red carpet, which again is very different. They're all kind of very different kind of vibes and identities, but your storytelling, you know, these looks you do usually trickle down into, you know, everyday looks that people want to create themselves, um, which I love.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  I love people being able to come out their comfort zone and try new things and, you know, a great haircut and. Change everything.

• 9:12Elizabeth Day?

  I've never wanted to go blonde so much as when you did Kim Kardashian.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Really? I know everyone did that, yeah.

• 9:18Elizabeth Day?

  It was incredible. Talking of storytelling, your book, Your Roots Don't Define You, first of all, what an exceptional title.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, I'm very proud of it.

• 9:27Elizabeth Day?

  When did you come up with the title?

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Well, it changed. We had a book previously that was, I guess, a bit more like my own social media. It was a little more surface level, maybe what people knew about me. It was a little bit more,

• 9:41Speaker 00

  I guess, you know, glamorous and Hollywood and polished. But I really just felt like it wasn't a true reflection of who I am and where I'm at in my life. I actually had a cancer scare. My mum had a esophagus cancer, which was really scary during Covid, and she survived it. And I had a lot of problems with my esophagus. And basically, after multiple tests and not being told by the doctor that it was okay, you know, I was waiting for them to say, oh, you're fine, it's just acid. And I never got that reassurance. So eventually I had to have like an operation where I had to be able to sleep. And I sort of laid there and I just thought to myself, have I kind of said what I needed to say? Or have I, you know, created an edited version of myself, which is probably something I've done my whole life?

• 10:21Speaker 00

  And I guess I wasn't prepared to lose my voice before I'd really owned it. So that's when the book changed and I scrapped the original idea. And Your Roots Don't Define You came to life because obviously, you know, the initial

• 10:35Speaker 00

  stepping stone for me was hair. But the bigger story really was the roots really usually do define people, you know, where you come from, how you were brought up. And people carry this about their whole lives. And I first recognised that in hair and in hair styling and in changing people's image. But really, it goes so much deeper.

• 10:54Elizabeth Day?

  It's also a book that contains some fabulous acknowledgements.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:58Elizabeth Day?

  So you acknowledge Kris Jenner, Kim Kardashian, Drew Barrymore, J Lo, but you also acknowledge Dash.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 11:05Elizabeth Day?

  Your dog. And it's really beautiful. I don't think I've ever read an acknowledgement to a dog.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  I think I want a tattoo of Dash. I just thought about it right now. I've got a tattoo of my kids on my, I don't, I'm not a tattoo kind of person, but I have my kids on my wrist. And they're date above, just because it's kind of like your lifeline.

• 11:21Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  I kind of had that when I was thirty. But Dash is just such a part of the family. I never grew up with dogs. We didn't have that. I'm one of five kids, so there was too many kids going on. And we were very poor as kids. So it was kind of like survival, you know, last thing we needed was a dog. But having a dog as an adult, he's just become like the family stone. I don't know, like he's just, he's always there. He's such a happy little boy. And some of my favorite times to be sort of, I guess, relaxing times or times to switch off is just taking him to the park and watching him, you know, play. And yeah, Dash is, he's a husky. He's such a good boy. He's very well trained. We actually brought him over at Christmas. He came on the flight with me and, um, because like I say, he's part of the family.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  I never knew a dog could become such a, uh, I was like, have I just become very LA? Because in LA, everyone has a dog. So I said, thank you to Dash just because he's actually been with me through my loneliest times in life and some of my most broken times.

• 12:19Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your failures. And I want to preface this by saying, I really appreciate you opening up about times in your life that I'm sure are challenging to speak about still, because they were traumatic and difficult.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:33Elizabeth Day?

  So I just wanted to say that before we venture.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  You're welcome. Yeah.

• 12:37Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  I mean, I just think, I guess I've got to a point in my career where it's very kind for people to say, oh, you're successful now, or you've done this, or you've done that. And, you know, I guess if I think about it, I have done some great things, but there's been more in my life that I've been, um, you know, unsuccessful. And I've had more no's than I've had yeses. I've had more fails than I've had wins. But I guess once you get some momentum and you do have some wins, people all of a sudden think you have it all together and life's great. And you just kind of walked into America and you just became no. And everyone, you know, it's really not like that.

• 13:08Elizabeth Day?

  Your first failure is letting shame make decisions.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:12Elizabeth Day?

  Can you take us back to the first time you remember feeling shame or you were made to feel shame?

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Probably when I was bullied at school for doing hair. I did hair, so people automatically assumed I was gay. I was only sort of 12 or 13 when I got a job in a hair salon. But it was before I really considered what gay was or what my sexuality was. I was just having a good time at school and I was kind of a happy kid. Um, but being bullied, it was very relentless. You know, I was beaten up and it wasn't just like a bit of name calling. It was pretty intense, um, more than my kids should go through. Um, so I think probably I felt ashamed of like, you know, should I be doing hair? It's not a guy's thing to do, like, and they say I'm gay and that seems bad and I don't want to be that. So I think shame was shown to me quite young, unfortunately. And I think I've probably experienced

• 14:03Speaker 00

  and felt shame.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Before I felt love in a way, I don't know, I I I don't know, it's such a sensitive age where your developments were developing from a kid into an adult and then that just didn't really feel safe, you know, that time didn't feel safe. The ultimate shame, which kind of led me to maybe my darkest time in my life and how shame really held me back was um when I came out and I came out at the age of twenty six and turned in twenty seven and uh when I did come out, everyone just assumed that I knew, always knew, you know, like you always knew, you kept it a secret and I really didn't, I I

• 14:48Speaker 00

  uh from a very young age, I kind of was told I was stupid because it's dyslexic and I was told I was gay because I did hair. And they were both things I didn't want to be, it seemed really bad and very negative and not a positive thing. And I was like, I don't want to be that, I don't want to be, you know, the either of those things. And I just got really headstrong on proving everyone wrong. I really thought, I'm going to show everyone I'm not either of these things. And so I didn't look left or right. And your brain is very powerful when you set your mind to things, you know, you can really, it was in a conscious decision. The only conscious decision I made was to prove people wrong. You know, and it was before I'd even sort of explored what that meant. And I I and the sad part is I really abandoned myself, I think, at that age. Um and became a version of myself which I thought society wanted me to be or what was normal.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  But, you know, eventually that caught up with me. And when I came out, I think the the sense of loss I felt, I don't know what the hell was happening. I I just couldn't seem to control it. I thought, how have I been through my whole life? Being straight and having it together and thinking this was my life to all of a sudden now it felt like it was a disease. I felt like I caught something and I couldn't get rid of it. It was just like it felt so consuming, like cancer. And also had a lot of people asking me questions, which I didn't know the answers to. So fast forward to the night I told my kids that I was gay, which was just because we had to, me and Kay, the mother of my kids, you know, had sort of tried to do the best to protect them, but people love to talk. When there's a secret, people want to know about it.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  And then that night telling them that was just the worst night of my life because I felt like everything I'd experienced as a kid really was then just passed on to them. And um yeah, that's the night I tried to kill myself. And I think. I didn't necessarily wanna die as when it's a killer version. I just wanted to kill whatever it was in me that I couldn't control anymore. And it felt so, I felt so much shame that I, I wanted to kill it. And, you know, that meant, I guess, taking my life. And it felt like it would be better for them to have a dad that was dead than gay. Because it just, there was so much shame around it. There was so much shame and fear. It was too much for me to understand. The night that I tried to do that, I drove for miles and miles.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  And I drove for an hour and a bit away. I just was trying to get away. I felt like a disease and I needed to get away from my family, get away from the people I loved. Cause I was like infectious, that's how it felt. Yeah, I, I felt just complete shame.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  That was

• 17:21Speaker 00

  me coming home to myself. And I guess I realized then I'd made a career out of people looking in the mirror, making people see themselves, become a better version of themselves. I just never really allowed myself to look in the mirror. I think I was just too afraid when I did look. Cause mine and Kate's relationship sort of ended around the age of twenty six, twenty seven, the same time. I kind of thought, wow, maybe I'm just experimenting. Maybe I'm going through this breakup and I'm just trying, you know, sometimes when you go through a breakup, you go through, you know, we have the, you know, the breakup haircut where everyone cuts the hair off. I thought I'm just being a bit crazy, a bit wild. And, but once I'd opened the door of, you know, being gay and like sexuality, I, I couldn't close it. And I just, it just felt out of control. My life felt out of control.

• 18:05Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry you went through that and had to carry so much pain. And thank you for sharing it.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  I'm sure I've took years off my life from what I did and how I treated myself and how poorly I've, I've felt about myself my whole life. I'm sure, you know, I, I, I do think that carrying shame and fear and anxiety, I, I do think it wears so heavy on your body. You know, the worry and the, you know, I think it's, it's not good for you. They're not my proudest moments, but I think the, where I'm at in my life now is I've done so much work on myself. It may seem like I'm speaking about these things quite lightly. I I just know they're part of my story. Yeah. And I'm not ashamed of them anymore. I don't feel ashamed of my life. And I think for a long time I tried to delete my past. You know, even moving to America, I said it was for my

• 18:58Speaker 00

  career. I think part of it was just running away. I was wanting to get away from, you know, this person, myself. And I think one day when I realized that, you know,

• 19:08Speaker 00

  I'd abandoned myself and the real healing was coming back to myself and kind of showing myself the love that I showed others or got into relationships with because I was hoping they would heal it and they would give me the love that I felt like I needed and or that I didn't need and crave. But I think realizing that I can give that love to myself, you know, self-love is very peaceful and it just means that you don't get into relationships, you shouldn't. It just means you don't get yourself in situations that are not healthy. You have boundaries, you know, and I think for a long time I didn't realize I could do that. It's interesting trying to go into a relationship now. I think I know too much sometimes. I've

• 19:49Speaker 00

  done so much work on myself and I've had so many different, I've had a big life of highs and lows. So I think it's made me very self-aware. So I've been single for the last two and a half years because once you know yourself and once you've done the work, it takes someone very special to come into your life because I really guard it now and really protect it and protect myself and value myself like I would my kids, you know, like my kids, I would never let them just be with anyone or, you know, as a dad, you know, if someone does something to your kid in the playground, you want to go in there and find that little kid and, you know, tell them, you know, you you're so protective. We're not always like that about ourselves. We kind of let people walk over us or, you

• 20:32Speaker 00

  know, let family members treat us poorly. Well, it's just the way they are. You know, we kind of accept these things that we shouldn't. And I think in doing the work and knowing my value, sometimes it makes your world a smaller place, but it makes it a more peaceful place. Although I don't want to go back to those times, they made me who I am today. And I'm finding a place in my life where I'm proud of who I am, you know, regardless of all the noise and. The, you know, the different elements of my life that people feel like they have access to from, you know, being a public figure. Although I just do hair, I mean, let's keep it real. It's not as though I'm, you know, saving lives. But, you know, you're associated with the people that people know, you know, some of the most famous women in the world and people, you know, associate with them with you.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  And, and for the first time in my life, some of the darkest secrets that I thought no one would ever know about, I'm okay to talk about because hopefully that will help someone else.

• 21:26Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly, and I love that for you and I love how you've expressed it. And as Brené Brown says, the antidote to shame is sharing.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:33Elizabeth Day?

  And forging that connection because the thing that shame thrives on is feeling like you're uniquely the only one going through something because it's so alienating, carrying that burden.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 21:44Elizabeth Day?

  And I also really appreciate what you say there about love because the idea that love is not a failure simply because it ends or evolves.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:52Elizabeth Day?

  I think that you and Kate seem to be such good examples of that.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:56Elizabeth Day?

  So, so Kate is your former long-term partner, mother of your children.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:01Elizabeth Day?

  And she's also the person who saved your life that night, isn't she?

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, she saved my life many times. Not, I mean, that's the only time I've ever tried to end it like that, but you know, I think she's, she's got me out of many situations where I just didn't see myself. And for many years, Kate saw me when I didn't see myself. And during that time, which was incredibly painful for her and she was going through her own pain, for someone to be able to see you even though they're in pain and, and, and help lift you out of that was just incredibly selfless. And I think, you know, it's an unconditional love I have for Kate and, you know, the bond of having the kids together and being parents to them and trying to give them their best life experience, even though it wasn't necessarily normal.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  I think we have a great, you know, foundation and we have two beautiful kids I'm very proud of. And, you know, at Christmas, we spent Christmas together and I came back to the UK and.

• 23:02Speaker 00

  It was New Year's Eve and fireworks were going off and I put my arm around and I said, you know, I did it, you know, cause I actually brought a house in the UK. Which was a big thing and everyone was very surprised when I said I wanted to buy a house in the UK. Cause for such a long time, I couldn't even come back to England. Um, I think once I left and found myself in in the US, I wasn't Chris that was gay. I wasn't Chris that had kids. I wasn't Chris that was had kids and was gay. But used to be with Kate and you always know, none of that noise was there. It was just Chris. You know, I was a little older, so it's not as though people would judge you for being gay. It was like, kind of like, okay, you know, it's who you are. I was accepted.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  So to come back to a place where I didn't feel accepted felt paralyzing. I would have panic attacks in the car when I had to come back for jobs in the UK. I remember leaving Heathrow Airport and I would have panic attacks. I just, I felt like I couldn't be there. But literally, it was like post-traumatic stress. That's how. I didn't know what was happening at the time. I didn't quite understand what the hell was happening to me, but I just felt like I needed to get the hell out of there. So to actually come back to the UK and buy a house, you know, that's me not letting my roots define me and um. Me retelling the story and and starting um. My life here because, you know, I do have my roots here and I want my kids to be able to have their roots here and. You know, that's why I said to Kate, I said, oh, you know, I did it. And she said, I always knew you would.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  And I said, I didn't. And she said, I know, but I always knew. And she always just saw some thing in me that I didn't.

• 24:32Elizabeth Day?

  And your kids now, Kitty Blue and Billy, how old are they?

• 24:35Speaker 00

  Twenty one, twenty three. They're not kids anymore.

• 24:37Elizabeth Day?

  That is wild, looking at you. You look twenty one. And it looks like you have such a beautiful relationship and I just want to pay tribute to that because for anyone listening or watching this. Who's going through a divorce or going through some crisis of identity, I think you, Kate, Kitty Kitty Blue and Billy like really show the way forward.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  Oh, well, thank you. I mean, we just, mine and Kate's. Priority above what was going on with us was always just them and making sure they were okay and they were.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  You know, a focus of just having two great kids. And I think, you know, even at Christmas, when I did come back, so although I had that nice moment with Kate. There was something that happened in my family where someone said something, a family member, and I was just taken back to being twelve years old again. It was just, I was really triggered. And I think a lot of people can relate to going home at Christmas and, you know. A lot of people have moved on, evolved, some people don't, and it's fine. But it's just like, I felt very triggered, I need to get out of here. Like, it's just, I don't belong here. But my daughter Kitty actually had an interaction with the same person. And she said to me when we got back, she's like, Dad, you know, I love you. And, you know, I just want you to respect this boundary I've got, where I've never had the best relationship with this person.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  And for me, I just wanna draw the line there and like, respect that I just don't, you know, I will be polite, but I don't want a relationship with them. That's just my boundary. And it's not as though it was a rash decision. It's been a making in the years. But for someone at 21 to feel like they can say, like, you know, I can love someone from afar, but if something isn't healthy for me, I can put a boundary in place that I don't wanna be around it. I was so inspired and I was like, wow, I think we did a good job.

• 26:15Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  You know, and I, cause I wanted to go on a plane and go home. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna do what she does. That's right. Yeah, so she's keeping me young and reminding me, but you know, like, it, hopefully we've,

• 26:30Speaker 00

  you know, we've, we've done a good job. We're both very proud of them.

• 26:36Elizabeth Day?

  Autumn's here, soup season is back, and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording, and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is Hexclad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks, and the cleanup doesn't turn into just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of non-stick, so you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius, and the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook.

• 27:19Elizabeth Day?

  Hexclad is an at-home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link, hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. Your second failure is believing success would heal old wounds.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, it just doesn't.

• 27:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. So how do you live with that?

• 27:50Speaker 00

  I don't know. I thought when I have enough money or when I have enough success, when I make it in America, when I work with this celebrity, when I have this much money, when I can buy this car, when I can buy this house. And then I got it. And then I thought, oh, I still feel the same. You can externally like excite yourself and, you know, feel like you've had a win. But if you're not aligned internally, you still have that sad feeling and you still have that lonely feeling. Or you still don't want to be on your own. Or you still get yourself into relationships because it's better than being alone. You really just have to do the work. And I think that was for me, something I really wanted to consciously change. I have a great therapist called John. He's an amazing guy.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  And I remember one day saying to him, I keep getting myself into this situation and I really got to change it. I got to stop what I'm doing, being attracted to things I'm attracted to. And he took me back. It was like the inner child work. I don't know anyone listening, the inner child work is basically where you go back to a younger version of yourself. And it's just about connecting, really. That's what I took from it. I mean, I'm sure there's more of a technical way of framing it, but it's about connecting to you, who you are. And if you think about how you would talk to a little child, if they were going through a hard time or they felt alone or sad.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  You know, you'd hardly call them stupid or ignore them. You would comfort them and I would. I would comfort them and say, hey, you know, you're great. Don't worry about what the kids are saying to you at school and you're going to be great, you know, and you get that kid a lift. But I, coming back to myself, you know, there's the technique where you basically see yourself as a kid and. You talk to yourself and I I kind of realised, my therapist said, well, how how does that little kid feel in this memory? And I thought, oh, he just kind of feels sad and alone and and not seen. And he's like, well, what would you say to him? And I was like, oh, my God, I would tell him that one day, like, how he feels different now will be his superpower. And like, you're amazing and like, you're gonna be okay. And it's really weird. It kind of just, I just couldn't stop crying.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  I just realised how mean I'd been to myself my whole life and also how I'd abandoned myself. I just left that little kid that felt alone and and a bit different and and not quite sure. And I just never let him explore. I never let him grow up. I just became a version of myself that society told me to be or what I thought was the correct thing to do. And a lot of people do that without realising it. I didn't realise I'd done it. That's why I felt so confused when I came out and stuff. I I didn't realise I'd abandoned myself. I didn't realise that I'd left myself. And it wasn't until I connected back to that little kid.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  That was just the beginning, though. That was the beginning of doing the work and healing.

• 30:30Elizabeth Day?

  I wonder as well, at the time that you were becoming ever more successful and known for your talent. Part of the reason was because you were surrounded by incredibly successful people. Was that hard in a way that you're comparing yourself to this extraordinary metric of your client base?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Not really. I've always been like a sponge. I'm just like, call me SpongeBob SquarePants. I've always just watched in awe and absorbed like what makes them them, what makes them successful? How do they take their losses? How do they come back? How do they bounce back? Because life happens to all of us. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're famous or not. Envy can be a really dark rooted thing and cause people to become very sad versions of themselves. You know, I see comments sometimes on social media like. I spoke about this a few times. I saw someone write a comment on, it wasn't even my page. It was someone's page and they said, um, I hope you get cancer. And I was like, oh my God, this is a really sad person, a really sad individual.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  But I think there's obviously some sort of jealousy or envy or something this person feels. And I talk about in the book, trying to change, you know, jealousy with whether it be on, you know, social media. And you think, well, why has this person always got a great relationship? But why has this person got beautiful skin or this person seems to have it all, you know? Instead of kind of going to a negative place, more try and what I've always tried to do is use them as like a mentor. Like, well, okay, well, there's obviously something I like about what they've got or what they have or what they're doing. And try and say, well, how did they do it? And kind of research into what their wins were, what their failures were. And when you look at that stuff, you really realize it's not an easy journey. So I think it normalizes it, it makes it, it humanizes it.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  And I think it also makes it a healthier place to be, to be able to sort of like look at, well, what they've got and how they got it and work towards something. Rather than just sit there on your sofa and be like, I could never, cause you can, you know? I mean, I come from a small town, well, uh, uh, you know, it's a medium sized town in Leicester in England. And I became, you know, known in Hollywood, you know, against the odds, you know? And if you work long enough and hard enough and you're focused enough, then it, change is possible. You know, and it's not overnight and none of my success was overnight. Um, it's all been just little, little moments of leapfrogging to the next thing.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  And then one day you get to a place where you're like, oh, I guess I did good. I guess I did the things I, you know, wanted to do.

• 33:09Elizabeth Day?

  You're so right. And this podcast is all about sort of navigating those setbacks in order eventually to know yourself, which for me is the truest version of success.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:18Elizabeth Day?

  I wonder if I could ask you this because I'm a huge Kardashians fan. And I think in so many ways, Kim Kardashian and Kris Jenner have shaped modern culture and the history of America in the last 50 years. And I'm sure you're often asked about them and about their successes, but I would love to know what they have taught you about failure.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  Just that failure happens to everyone. But I think you have a choice and what you do with failure. And I think you can just be beaten down and give up. Or you can pick yourself up and dust yourself off and try again, you know, you might have to try in a different way. I I I think it's just about failing isn't, you know, the end. It it can be the beginning of something new and something exciting. And it's about not giving up, which is. Giving up sometimes is the easy thing to do. I don't know. I think probably just just just that, you know, they're they're very. Inspirational to see what they've created and the empires that they've given, but.

• 34:23Speaker 00

  Everyone goes through life. No one gets, you know, they get out of jail card free and, you know, just cruises and life's great. It's always. But sometimes the bigger your life is, the bigger the problems, you know.

• 34:34Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever drunk a Chris Jana Martini?

• 34:38Speaker 00

  No, I um, I haven't. I've never had a drink with Chris. I had a shot with Kim, with several shots with Kim, but never Chris. Chris is an early glam girl and I've only recently started doing Chris. It was only like when Kim went to do her. Robbery trial in Paris that I did Chris. And um, I know, I've known Kim for ten years. I had known Chris, she was around, has never did the hair. And um, Kim said, okay, do my mom when I'm in Paris. I said, yeah. And um. Emma said to me, oh, she's, you know, she likes early glam. And I thought, oh, God. So then the call time was like five and they were like, she'll be on time, don't be late.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  So I got there at four forty five. I thought, oh, I'm so early. This is great. And I walked in the room, she's sitting in the chair already. She's like, oh, I like I'm late and I'm okay. So she's like, just blow it out. And I'm like, hmm. Blow it out, I think wait ten years, yeah, just blow it out. And she just had that new face and the facelift and she looked fantastic. And I thought, she's got this new face, we can change her hair and do something different. She always had the same hair, you know, the short hair is great and it's iconic, but why don't we do something different? And we did like just, it was just a bit longer and like a bob and like it was kind of slicked down and she did like a wet look. And she was like, wow, you know, and she really enjoyed something different. And it had such a response as well because people seemed to say, Chris Jenner looks amazing, you know. Everyone, the internet kind of went crazy about how good Chris Jenner looked.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  She actually got emotional, we did an event together and she said, you know, it's funny because I've just had this short hair my whole life. And Chris saw me and did something different and saw me different. And that was just so refreshing for someone to see you, you know, and do something different. You know, we all, we all are not seen sometimes. And I think that's the power of the hairstylist. And they say, you know, your hairstylist is like a therapist when you sit in a chair. I think, you know, the power of change is, you know, even when you're Christiana is powerful. It touches you and I think that's the beauty of my job and what I get to do. It's not just hair, it's, it's part of people's identity and how they carry themselves throughout the world. And, you know, I knew that when I did cancer patients and women lost their hair and I used to do these wigs and try and make them a lot more natural.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  And these women would say to me, they'd rather lose their breasts than their hair. And did these wigs and, you know, they felt like they could fight cancer and go through their day and, you know, not look ill. And, you know, take on the world because when they lost their hair, they lost their identity and they just couldn't see what was, you know. That was the most extreme version, but, you know, identity is very powerful.

• 37:10Elizabeth Day?

  Definitely, and I have a friend going through precisely that at the moment. And you're so right, as Fleabag says, hair is everything.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Who's Fleabag?

• 37:19Elizabeth Day?

  Fleabag is this show written by Phoebe Waller-Bridge. It's a comedy show and there's a scene in it where her sister goes for a haircut and she's convinced into an asymmetric bob.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 37:31Elizabeth Day?

  And she emerges looking.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  Not the asymmetrical bob.

• 37:33Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, it was, she looks like a pencil and, and there's this whole scene. Did she?

• 37:39Speaker 00

  I think it's a hair, let's do something, oh, see.

• 37:43Elizabeth Day?

  It's very

• 37:44Speaker 00

  Sometimes we've got an age metrical bob not intentionally. That's the worst when you get an unintentional oil and then you go in and like a hairdresser that were like, well, what it is, your head is wonky. It's not the hair, you know, hairdressers love to shit.

• 37:56Elizabeth Day?

  Savage.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, like you get the perfect colour. I love my colour, same as last time. And then you go in the back and you realise you didn't write it down. So you guess the colour and then it comes out different. You're like, is it, is it different? It's colour looks different this time.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  They've changed the formula. Changed the colour formula.

• 38:14Elizabeth Day?

  I've definitely had that said to me.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, bullshit. They just didn't write it down. Yeah, sometimes they're just making it up on the spot.

• 38:22Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, hilarious.

• 38:26Elizabeth Day?

  There are so many things I wish I'd known when I started this podcast and my production company, Daylight. Like, why am I spending hours trying to make a website look good? Why am I designing everything from scratch? And why am I spending all my time just doing admin? What I really needed was one place that could do all of this for me. Enter Shopify. Shopify has beautiful, ready-made templates that make your website look polished without needing to become a graphic designer overnight. Its AI tools can help you get your site up and running quickly and Shopify Checkout makes it really easy for customers to actually go from, ooh, I like that, to, yes, I'll have one. If Shopify had existed when I started out, I could have

• 39:09Elizabeth Day?

  saved myself a lot of time, stress and some rogue design choices. If you're ready to hear the

• 39:17Elizabeth Day?

  of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk/fail. Autumn's here, soup season is back and my kitchen is suddenly working overtime. Quick dinners after a manic day recording and I'm enjoying spending a bit more time at home as the days are getting shorter. The thing that's made all of that easier is hex clad. I am genuinely obsessed with these pans. They heat evenly, nothing sticks and the clean up doesn't turn into Just another job at the end of the night. Hexclad combines the searing power of stainless steel with the convenience of nonstick.

• 40:00Elizabeth Day?

  So you get proper performance without the usual faff. They're dishwasher safe, love that, oven safe up to 480 degrees Celsius. And the stay cool handles mean you're not grabbing a scorching pan mid-cook. Hexclad is an at home lifesaver. Start the new season with cookware that actually works as hard as you do. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off with our exclusive link. Hexclad.co.uk/fail. That's hexclad.co.uk/fail. Offer excludes bundles and items already on sale. Your final failure is comparison, which you've touched on.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:39Elizabeth Day?

  And again, these are so highly relatable. So that idea of measuring yourself by other people's timelines. And as you put it to me, comparing your chapter two to someone else's chapter 12.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:49Elizabeth Day?

  I what, do you think any of that stemmed from being one of five children? And right in the middle?

• 40:56Speaker 00

  I think it's just natural to be.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  To feel less than and to see people, other people look like they have more. And social media made it just so much worse for people. I think people, social media is, for the power of full side of it, which I, you know, has been very beneficial to my life. There is the, the element where you're flicking and constantly being, you know, subjected to information. We're consuming so much, it's so easy to be envious and feel smaller because there's so much noise now. You know, but imagine taking your phone away and no one having phones and having the internet and having TikTok and having Instagram. Probably would be a quieter life. And probably wouldn't have as much anxiety because you're not as sort of. Stimulated by all this information that's going on all the time.

• 41:44Speaker 00

  So when seeing images of like perfect bodies or perfect hairstyles or perfect faces. Or how you can look better if you just have this procedure or if you take this medication or, you know. I always still get triggered by things. I'll still see things that I'm triggered by. I'll feel smaller than or less, whether it's a body type or whether it's a, you know, someone that seems to have the perfect partner and but then I can kind of come back to myself and just I know who I am and I know the work I've done on myself and I'm all right with that. I I'm comfortable to be looking in the mirror. I feel proud of who I am. Like an ex alcoholic, you know, they may, they've done the 12 step program. They may see a drink and think, oh, that looks pretty good. That wine looks, that wine looks nice.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  But once you've done the work, you're also then very much like, hmm, I know what that leads to. That one is going to turn to two and then to 10 on. I'm just not going to go there. It's just not for me, you know, so it doesn't mean you're not like triggered and you know, you're fixed, but you just learn that you're doing that thing you do, where you're comparing yourself and it's a rabbit hole and you can come back to yourself, you know.

• 42:51Elizabeth Day?

  And I have to say that, as you say, there's so much noise and there's also some amazing stuff on social media and your hair videos for Color Wow.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:01Elizabeth Day?

  Changed my life. They're so good and they're so effective because I went and bought those products. So you do a great job. I think there's something about the way that you share your knowledge.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  I think for me, it's just really important when people, when you do work with celebrities and people are inspired by their looks, they want to know how to get them. So just breaking it down really and keeping it real. I'm like, all right, well, you don't look like J Lo, but this is how, you don't look like Kim, but this is how. And I think people are like, oh, actually it's quite simple. Whereas, you know, I think the old idea of celebrity was so smoke and mirrors and no one knew Hollywood secrets, whereas now social media shows you it, you know. You want to look like Kim, this is how, you know, you want to go blonde, this is how we did it. Whereas before it was like, that was just for the rich and fameless.

• 43:44Elizabeth Day?

  Also love that you're doing Martha Stewart now.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's so funny. I love it. I didn't realize, I didn't realize Martha was in her eighties. I thought she was like sixty something and everyone kept saying to me, I did her hair, oh my God, she's so amazing. I look at she's, I want to be like that when I'm married. And I thought, how old is she? I went to my time, I was so shocked. She looks great.

• 44:01Elizabeth Day?

  She looks amazing.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's so fun. She's really supportive and thankfully my book became a New York Times bestseller. And, you know, she, she helped me with that. She did a podcast and we did fun little TikToks and stuff. And she's just a really fun person to work with.

• 44:15Elizabeth Day?

  So Chris Appleton, this has been so great. Thank you so much for coming on.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 44:20Elizabeth Day?

  Final question.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:21Elizabeth Day?

  If you had to define yourself as a hairstyle, what would it be?

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Oh, I think it would be like a bombshell, blowout, Jello Super Bowl. It's like bouncy, fun, uh, like sexy, you wanna flip it and toss it and like, I don't know, has life and ambition and, you know, my motto is to, uh, die with memories, not dreams. You know, I think something I have always just felt passionate that we're very lucky to be here and life is really short. And I just try and live my best life, learn from my mistakes and my failures. And I've had many of them, some very public, never make the same mistake twice. I think I try and learn.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  It's okay to make mistakes, but I think I love learning from them and understanding why we make those decisions and why we headed in that direction in the first place and how we can re-navigate. I like this roadmap idea. This is going somewhere.

• 45:22Elizabeth Day?

  It's your next book.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know if I'd do another book.

• 45:25Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, go on.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  So much work.

• 45:26Elizabeth Day?

  I know.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  I've loved it. I've really, really, really enjoyed it and I've really loved connecting with people about it. It's to bring it to life, you really, really have to. I mean, I, I think I probably do, I can't even, can't tell you how many podcasts I've done, I don't know how much sort of talking about it is. And I've, I've loved the experience, but it's, it's, it's part of you. You really put out there, you know, it really is something you give over to the world. Cause it's not just like a glossy book. It's really real. And I think it's something I'm really proud of. Things that I thought that I'd dealt with, when you're talking about them back to back and back to back over and over again, you, you wear it, you know, you carry it. It's like Adele when she says, you know, she sings these sad songs, you know, they came from a time in her life, although she's healed and moved on and you got over it.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Singing it and those words and those feelings, you know, just, and I hope I never lose that because it shows, you know, your connection to those emotions. It's good, you know, because I don't ever want to become numb to any of it.

• 46:23Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so grateful to you for coming on this podcast and speaking in such a beautiful and profound way.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Oh, thanks.

• 46:30Elizabeth Day?

  In the book, you talk about how hairstyles can be divided into three categories. The muse, the trendsetter, the icon. Chris Appleton, I think you're all three.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 46:38Elizabeth Day?

  Muse, trendsetter, icon. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 46:47Elizabeth Day?

  Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.