Episode 342

In a quiet Ohio suburb where families mow their lawns and kids ride bikes on the sidewalks, police uncover a bloody scene: two decomposing bodies, Regina Capobianco and her friend John Mann, buried beneath trash inside a modest home. As investigators peel back the layers, they don’t just find evidence of murder; they find broken families, desperate choices, and a trail of secrets that stretches from prison cells to nail salons. In a quiet, family-friendly town, someone let a killer through the front door. Get instant access to all episodes, including premium unreleased episodes, commercial-free at swordandscale.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fortability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power

• 0:43Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Shouldn't happen, it shouldn't happen. And anyway, I just wanted to be known that I didn't kill John.

• 2:04Mike Boudet?

  Welcome to season 13, episode 342 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real.

• 2:34Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Fortability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic Forerunner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power

• 3:18Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 4:02Mike Boudet?

  In the early hours of May 18, 2017, in Parma Heights, Ohio, a working-class suburb 20 miles south of Cleveland, which sounds like a lovely place I might add, like the rest of the state. Pearl Road cuts through the town in a long stretch of strip plazas and small storefronts. Hair salons, nail studios, pizza shops, you know the kind of useless strip mall that inhabits pretty much every city in America? Well, those shops are usually owned by locals, and these businesses open early, close late, and know their regulars by name. The strip is dark, and small shops are locked up for the night.

• 4:45Mike Boudet?

  The early morning is calm, except for one thing: A burglar is ready to do his thing. He grabs a landscaping stone, hauls it up, and hurls it at the front door of Classic Hair Studio. The glass explodes, the stone breaking apart into chunks across the floor. He doesn't hesitate, he ducks inside, heads straight for the counter, and yanks the entire cash register loose. The drawer jerks free, cords snapping, and he's out in seconds. Inside the cash register, he finds almost $300 in cash, and the machine itself is probably worth a couple hundred more.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  Where's your emergency? Hi, it's in Carmel Heights. I'm not gonna say it's an emergency, but I was driving to work and I noticed that the door on a beauty shop is totally smashed on Pearl Road. The address is 6412. It's called Classic Studio, and their front door is just totally smashed. I mean, anybody can go inside at this point. Okay. And I noticed it, and I turned around and went back thinking, "Did I really see that?", and sure enough, I did, so... Okay, and what's the... I just thought I'd report it.

• 6:04Mike Boudet?

  A few doors down, he does it again. Another front door smashed, this time at the nail studio. Instead of taking the whole register, he opens the drawer. This one has $50 inside, but it doesn't matter. Any amount of money is worth it. He's desperate. The glass crunches under his boots as he walks away, leaving two shops in ruins behind him.

• 6:32Speaker 05

  I'm the store manager here at Discount Drug Mart. Right next to us, there is a, it's 6488 York Road. There's the Spa and Nail Place right next to the Drug Mart here that I'm in charge of. There's the glass is broken out on the front door here at the Nail and Spa Place.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Right, I believe we just cleared there.

• 6:52Speaker 05

  Oh, oh, okay. I'm sorry. I just, I didn't know if anyone was out or anything.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  6412, I believe the address is.

• 6:59Speaker 05

  Um, it says 6488 on the door here.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Okay, then that's a different one.

• 7:05Speaker 05

  Uh-oh. Uh, it's called Spa and Nails?

• 7:09Mike Boudet?

  By sunrise, both storefronts are cordoned off with yellow tape. Patrol officers sweep glass into piles while the owners pull up the surveillance video. A white male, short, with a bald spot and tattoos on his arms. The timestamp on the camera is wrong, but they already know the crimes happened overnight. The owners are terrified and one vows to shut down the business. She wonders how this could happen in such a family-friendly town. Parma Heights has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. At least, that's what the statistics say. Whoever the perpetrator is, he probably should have worn a mask.

• 7:53Mike Boudet?

  His face is front and center on the surveillance camera. Not only that, the outside cameras catch him speeding off in a white Jeep. It doesn't take long to bring in Thomas Nuff for questioning.

• 8:07Speaker 06

  Okay, all right. Do you have any idea why Parma Heights is here to speak with you? No? Well, I had a couple break-ins in my city at a Spa Nails and then another, uh, Classic Hair Studios. You know anything about them? No? Nothing at all? All right, well, I got surveillance video of the vehicle and the person breaking into their business. Okay, so let me pull this stuff up here. Recognize that person?

• 8:31Speaker 03

  Looks like it could be me.

• 8:33Speaker 06

  All right, so let's do this. Recognize them tattoos?

• 8:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:39Speaker 06

  Huh? Yeah? Do you remember doing this or no?

• 8:43Mike Boudet?

  Tom seemed like your average guy next door. He just didn't have that typical criminal look about him, if there even is such a thing. He looked more like a dad, sitting on the bleachers of his son's football game. And Thomas did have a son. A good kid, who unfortunately had to be raised by Tom's sister during the last 15 years he was in prison for aggravated robbery. So, looks can be deceiving. That's what they say, anyway.

• 9:14Speaker 06

  You run in, you take the cash register from the one place and some cash from the second place, okay? Um, and then you're in, you're in a white Jeep that looks like it's blowing your, your son, which registered to your sister?

• 9:25Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 9:26Speaker 06

  Okay, this.

• 9:29Speaker 06

  Okay, but a more, more recent photo would be, would be this. What the hell happened to it?

• 9:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. Smashed the window.

• 9:39Speaker 06

  Did you do that, or?

• 9:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 06

  Okay, what happened, I mean?

• 9:44Speaker 03

  Just went off road, hit a, hit a tree branch.

• 9:48Speaker 06

  Did you mean to go off road, or was it kinda?

• 9:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 06

  Okay, trying to hurt yourself, or what?

• 9:52Speaker 03

  No, just, just, uh, went off, was off road in a spot where we used to go off road and.

• 9:59Speaker 06

  Okay, so you're just gonna go out there and like, baha, or what?

• 10:02Speaker 03

  Nah, I don't know.

• 10:03Speaker 06

  You don't know? Okay, man, I appreciate you being honest.

• 10:06Mike Boudet?

  Tom tried to be a good dad. Well, maybe not. But, he really did love his son. And old habits die hard. That included going on benders, robbing businesses, and off-roading. This time, it just happened to be that he had no vehicle, so... He took his son's Jeep. And damaged it.

• 10:30Speaker 06

  How messed up were you during this time?

• 10:32Speaker 03

  I don't know, sir.

• 10:33Speaker 06

  Okay, alright. My waters, you know what, unfortunately, you know, due to this and the, the video and stuff like I have of you, and then, uh, how it got to you is we actually, uh, the news kind of hold it because I put something on our Facebook page, and then your sister actually wanted to call and said, hey, listen, that's my brother in my car. You know what I mean? So, kinda let us see you, but I had some previous things that led to you. It looks like you've had a history with Brunswick. Brunswick immediately called me, says, hey, listen, I know that guy.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:59Speaker 06

  You might, you might want to give him a call. Everything he did is what he used to do, and, uh, Dave used to deal with you a lot, huh? So, um, what happened? I mean, you were, you were in jail for a little bit? You get out, and what happened?

• 11:10Speaker 03

  I just, I don't know, man, I just. Got out and things weren't like I thought it was gonna be, you know, I had nowhere to go.

• 11:18Speaker 06

  Okay, no family was helping you or what?

• 11:20Speaker 03

  My mom passed, you know.

• 11:23Mike Boudet?

  A lot had changed in the 15 years he was on the inside. Y'all seen Shawshank, right? Think about how smartphones didn't even exist in 2002. Everybody was still using a flip phone. There was no social media, at least not like today. Facebook launched in 2004, YouTube in 2005, and Twitter in 2006. Instagram came around in 2010, and I won't even mention TikTok. In 2002, when he went into prison, people were still using AOL Instant Messenger, and MySpace wasn't even a thing yet. If you wanted to go somewhere, you couldn't just tap on your phone and have directions

• 12:06Mike Boudet?

  show up or even read out to you. You had to print something out from a site called MapQuest, I shit you not, on your inkjet printer and hope that the directions were accurate. Kids nowadays can't even figure out what gender they are. Could you imagine if you took GPS away from them? If Tom repeated his little heist today, he'd be lucky to find $1 in the cash register. People don't even use cash anymore. Just their Klarna debit cards, which they have no intention of ever paying back. Another big difference in 2002 is that we weren't all spying on each other. No one was lurking nearby to film you on their phone, waiting to post it somewhere for the world to see.

• 12:51Mike Boudet?

  Security cameras existed, but were reserved for big businesses. No wonder Tom didn't wear a mask. Not only was he too shitfaced to even think about a security camera, but he just wasn't expecting these tiny businesses to own one. In 2002, voicemail was still a thing, and people actually checked it. Tom felt like he'd been swallowed up by time, but it wasn't just the tech that had left him behind. While he was on the inside, his world fell apart. His mom died. She was the family anchor. There were some rough years between him and his stepdad, but his mom was always there for the kids. Probably almost too much.

• 13:35Speaker 07

  My mom struggled for the last three, four years before she passed, trying to keep the house afloat and still help my sister with bills and with her kids. And as soon as my mom dies, you know, I told my sister, well, here, take my money and paid a bank note off on borrowing money against it and keep the house. Well, her current husband had allowed it to go into such disrepair that she didn't want to fuck with it. And so she let the bank have it and, uh, and I told her, I said, you know, I feel like you, you know, spit on their graves. You know what I mean? You should have let them, you should have let the bank have it four years ago instead of looking at all the stress she did trying to, she was the only one that ever had a solid

• 14:20Speaker 07

  career and a working, a steady work. You know what I mean? With good money. So, you know, she's paying like everybody's cell phone bill, everybody's bills, babysitter, certain 80s.

• 14:30Mike Boudet?

  You and your sister got a good relationship or no?

• 14:32Speaker 07

  No.

• 14:33Mike Boudet?

  His sister took over the money and according to Tom, she mismanaged it. She also failed to get the car Tom had wrecked from the impound because it was too much trouble. Tom was pissed because the car belonged to his son Tommy and still had some of his personal belongings in it. According to Tom, his sister helped raise Tommy and had been a good influence, but ever since their mother passed, she was all about herself. His sister, of course, had a different story. There was a time when they partied together as teens and acted more like friends than siblings, but then Tom got a girl pregnant when he was 19 and things changed.

• 15:15Mike Boudet?

  His sister had lost a baby boy and now she found herself stepping in to parent Tom's son. Tom continued to party and went to rehab at least once.

• 15:28Speaker 07

  Every time he went to rehab, this stuff would come out. Missy does everything. Well, Missy has a job. Missy went to school. I paid for it. He always, I guess, felt like I got everything. But in reality, my grandparents were draining their bank account for him. And our whole life revolved around him and what was going on. But he always, and he's, he still will. And recently, when my mom died, he wrote Tommy letters. Same old stuff, like, Missy got this.

• 16:03Mike Boudet?

  His sister, Missy, remembered that their mother practically enabled him.

• 16:07Speaker 07

  She was always there for him. And even if he stole from her, he could still come home. She'd go over backward. I think I told you when I found out when she died that she had all these check cashing ones and stuff, and I'd found all the receipts. Commissary and things. And to people like Latasha and Laquisha and some of my brother's crowd, you know, and Akron and Youngstown and, you know, wherever. And it was always, well, he needs hygiene products. It's like, he doesn't need $300.

• 16:48Mike Boudet?

  We've all experienced someone in the family like this, right? It always seems like the one who gets in trouble the most or is the least productive gets all the attention, doesn't it? Yeah, fuck the productive one who pays his bills and minds his own business. Let's focus all of our baby bird attention on this idiot over here that can't get their shit together. Tom was about 25 when he went to prison, and now he was 42 with no home to go back to, no mommy to run to, and a son who was almost an adult now, ready to live his own life. He had a lot to figure out and even more to make up for. And yet, here he was, back at the police station.

• 17:32Mike Boudet?

  Since he got out, he'd been looking for a place to stay, but his parole had restrictions. No guns, no drugs, on and on. His anxiety was increasing, and the previous night's drunken binge was going to land him in jail again.

• 17:49Mike Boudet?

  Things were about to get worse.

• 17:51Speaker 06

  I don't see your son wanting to be bashful against you at all. You know what I mean? I think he just wants his dad around. You know what I mean? Unfortunately.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  And like I said, I mean, this mom was letting me stay there. And until I got a place and that didn't work out for the whole. And then she kinda wanted to start a relationship again. And then when I didn't, because I had a girlfriend, she kinda flipped on me.

• 18:15Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  And then, like I said, my sister, you know, me and her just.

• 18:19Speaker 06

  Was that girlfriend the girl we were looking for that was missing?

• 18:23Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 18:24Speaker 06

  You don't remember? Have you? Do you know where she's at by any chance?

• 18:26Speaker 03

  That's just an old friend of mine.

• 18:28Speaker 06

  Okay. Still never heard any contact of anything where she could be?

• 18:31Speaker 03

  She, uh, I don't know. She was like, when I was writing her from jail.

• 18:36Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  Um, we lost contact, but she stayed in touch with my mom.

• 18:41Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  So when my mom died, she kinda come back in the picture. Then her mom died. Then she took off the taxi and came back and her and her friend actually picked me up from jail.

• 18:51Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  But, uh.

• 18:52Speaker 06

  Who was that? Who was her friend that came with you?

• 18:54Speaker 03

  An old, small guy, John.

• 18:56Speaker 06

  John Mann? Yeah.

• 18:58Mike Boudet?

  In that clip, they were talking about the mother of Tom's son. When he got out of prison, he was hoping to stay at her house, but that didn't work out because she wanted to rekindle the relationship. And he had long since moved on with two different women. Forty-nine-year-old Regina Capobianco was one of them. About fifteen years earlier, she had signed up for a prison pen pal program where she met Tom. Yeah, she was one of those weirdos. They constantly wrote each other and promised they would meet up once he was out. The problem, for Tom at least, was that he was looking for stability. And before he even got out, he started to see that. She had issues. I wonder how he found out?

• 19:44Mike Boudet?

  Could it have been maybe the fact she was writing inmates? Maybe that was it there, Tom? Maybe that was the whole problem? Anyway, Regina had been living at home with her mother, but at some point in their friendship, her mother also died, leaving her without a home. Her life took a downward turn into alcoholism. This was the last thing Tom needed, and besides, he had already started seeing someone else. These inmates can really pull some puss, if you know what I mean. When Tom was released, Regina was living with a partner, an older man named John Mann. This was a quid pro quo situation, if you know what that means.

• 20:27Mike Boudet?

  A friends with benefits sort of relationship, where she would help take care of him and his house in exchange for, you know, a place to stay. She was a house whore, basically. Regina and John had generously offered to let Tom stay there too, until he got on his feet. But Tom could already see the writing on the wall and knew this would be the worst environment possible for him. It was true that he accepted Regina and John's offer to pick him up from prison upon his release, but he told him he planned to find his own lodging. The last he'd heard of Regina, she was about to celebrate her 50th birthday.

• 21:09Speaker 05

  911, what's the address of the emergency?

• 21:11Speaker 04

  So we have a neighbor across the street and they just got home and there's a lady that's like on the ground and can't get up and they're like hovering over her, so...

• 21:19Speaker 05

  In the front yard?

• 21:20Speaker 04

  In the front yard, yeah. She's an older lady in her 50s with dark brown hair. Wait, you know what? They're picking her up and carrying her into the room, into her.

• 21:29Speaker 05

  White female?

• 21:30Speaker 04

  White female. She can barely stand up, so they're walking her and carrying her.

• 21:36Mike Boudet?

  Now, it's one thing to get a little carried away for your 50th birthday, but when was the last time your neighbors called 911 on you because you were passed out in your yard? And I hope you weren't in your 50s.

• 21:50Speaker 05

  613, Joe, go ahead.

• 21:52Speaker 04

  They were celebrating Regina's birthday. She apparently had too much to drink, but she was up, walking around, talking, able to answer some simple questions. So she's been turned okay? We're gonna keep an eye on her for the night. We're clear.

• 22:06Mike Boudet?

  Copy. Tom remembered warning Regina to get up that day, but when she wasn't able to, he and John literally had to drag her into the house.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  On her 50th birthday, she got trashed and was puking up her fake teeth, and I'm like, "Come on Regina," I'm like, an old lady and saw that. And I told her too, I'm like, "Please get up. You know, you're laying in your puke." I'm like, "It's a nice area, someone's gonna call the police." No sooner than I said it, they're coming a couple of cops. And yeah, so, I mean, it looked crazy, like you got an older guy and you got this guy with tattoos dragging this girl in the house. I mean, especially with, after all that shit that happened in Cleveland, with them girls being gone for all them years, you don't know. She's always been like that. She's a good heart, good girl, um, through writing, like, for as much as we wrote in prison.

• 22:53Mike Boudet?

  Regina may have had a good heart, but she was a wild card. Though he did stay at Regina and John's a couple of times since he got out, he mostly bounced around hotels with his current girlfriend. He was right to steer clear of Regina as much as possible. The last thing he needed was to get roped into another bad situation. But Tom, the guy just trying to keep his head down and reconnect with his son, was about to be pulled into something a lot bigger than a stolen cash register and a wrecked Jeep. Something that would change his life forever.

• 23:58Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fortability.

• 24:05Mike Boudet?

  And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 24:47Mike Boudet?

  And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shoptoyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 25:11Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies

• 25:53Speaker 07

  isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 26:54Mike Boudet?

  It was late June 2017 in Parma Heights, Ohio, a Cleveland suburb with a reputation for safety, not violent crime. In the last few weeks, police responded to a string of late-night burglaries. The suspect, Thomas Nuff, was quickly caught. He admitted to everything, saying he was broke and desperate. Hotels were getting expensive. Tom had just been released from prison after serving 15 years. Since then, he'd bounced between hotels, old girlfriends, and temporary stays with people willing to help, including a pen pal named Regina Capobianco. She and her boyfriend even gave him a ride from prison.

• 27:38Mike Boudet?

  He stayed at her place a couple of nights, but mostly kept his distance. She had a good heart, but she was a little unpredictable. Then Regina stopped answering her phone. Her sister worried. I miss her every day. I miss sending her pictures of the girls, of my grandkids, and...

• 28:02Speaker 04

  Calling her.

• 28:05Speaker 04

  That was all taken from me and her. We can't do that anymore. I call Regina Reggie. Reggie had a contagious laugh. If you would ask anybody what they remember most about Reggie, it will be her laugh.

• 28:21Mike Boudet?

  The police had been to her house already, but they didn't execute a full search. Neighbors had seen stickers on the door about a potential foreclosure and just assumed John was evicted. Now weeks had passed. They go back. And what they find inside is worse than anything anyone's imagined. What they walk into is a hoarder's nightmare. Trash bags, boxes, rotting food. The air is thick and sour. The kind of stench you think is garbage until you realize it's not. Specialized agents are called in along with cadaver dogs. But even the dogs refuse to go inside.

• 29:06Mike Boudet?

  The odor of decomposition is overwhelming. They stubbornly sit outside like, "No way, man. I ain't going in there." "We ain't touching this." That's kind of what I imagine dogs sound like, if you can get into their head. "Yo, bro. We ain't going in there. That's all I'm saying, dog." "The search stops here." I think it's kind of cute. Imagine a Doberman talking like that. Anyway, fortunately, agents come prepared with full protective masks and oxygen tanks. This is a full hazmat situation we got going on. They enter through the back door of the ranch home, past the shattered window. Dead flies carpet the floor.

• 29:51Mike Boudet?

  The second bedroom is by far the worst. Flies swarm in the air. The stench pools in the room. Maggots wriggle in a disgusting puddle at the foot of the bed. A puddle they trace to a mound of trash and blankets. When they start to move it, they see skin, then bone, then what looks like a leg, then a skull. The hallway carpet has been cut away and blood stains stretch from the kitchen into the living room, where the carpet has also been removed. Under trash and clothing in the second bedroom, they find John Mann's body,

• 30:35Mike Boudet?

  a mire of decomposed, rotting flesh, unrecognizable. And behind him, up against the wall, they find a second figure wrapped in a wet Harley Davidson blanket. The blanket is form-fitting. They can see the outline of Regina's head before it's even pulled back. She's face up, sweater rolled up above her eyes, one foot exposed and the rest of her body hidden beneath layers of filth. A purple condom wrapper is found near her head. At first, Tom wasn't the obvious suspect, even though he had a criminal background. His crimes didn't involve violence against anyone,

• 31:21Mike Boudet?

  and he had a son he desperately wanted to reconnect with. Why would he risk throwing that all away? He already messed up by getting stupid drunk and breaking into the salons. Stupid and sloppy, but not murder. But because he was one of the only people who had a connection with both Regina and John, they started to dig. Where else had Tom been staying since he got out? Who else was helping him? And that's when his current girlfriend came up, Alicia Stoner. She wasn't just his girlfriend, she was a social worker at the prison. Imagine that.

• 32:02Mike Boudet?

  You realize how serious, certainly a lot's going on with him, and we understand that. We talked about that yesterday, so.

• 32:11Mike Boudet?

  Understand.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Things don't come back to you at certain times, but we just wanna have that line of communication. Hopefully, we can get through some of this information today, most of it.

• 32:22Mike Boudet?

  Alicia was working at the same prison that Tom was serving time in. Tom was attractive to her for some reason. Probably for the same reason why some women write to inmates. Some particular crazy bitches take that extra step and get a job at the prison. It's one hell of a world we're living in, I'll tell ya. Maybe it was the bad boy prisoner thing. Maybe it was his charming gift of gab, who knows? Who cares? Whatever the case, he was writing to multiple women, including Regina, and they were all falling for it. With Alicia, he had the added pleasure of interacting personally.

• 33:06Mike Boudet?

  That is, until she quit due to an obvious conflict of interest. She chose Tom over her job, and they continued the relationship. Imagine choosing a criminal over your job. These two lovebirds wrote poems to each other. Long handwritten love letters. They were soulmates. When detectives interviewed Alicia for the first time, she didn't wanna say much. But after she realized that she could be implicated and ultimately serve time, that's when she started to talk.

• 33:45Speaker 07

  I just wanna clarify some things that I wasn't direct with.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:49Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 33:50Speaker 03

  But maybe this dream of minimizing some of this so that it's

• 33:54Speaker 07

  Oh, I did.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  lesser issue.

• 33:55Speaker 07

  I avoided, I minimized, I rationalized, I did all the defense mechanisms, I know.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  It just comes down to telling us the truth.

• 34:02Mike Boudet?

  On paper, Alicia didn't look like the kinda woman who'd ever be connected to a double homicide. She was a mental health worker, and she was married. But somehow, she was charmed by this asshole. After his release in April 2017, Alicia became more than just his girlfriend. She was his driver, his banker, and his safety net.

• 34:27Mike Boudet?

  When parole rules barred Tom from living with her, she paid for his motel rooms. When he needed money, she wired it. And when he called her in the middle of the night, she came. On May 12th, 2017, Alicia drove to pick him up after he made a desperate phone call. She remembered his left index finger was badly cut, a fresh wound he couldn't easily explain.

• 34:53Speaker 07

  When we discussed about initially me getting the phone call from Thomas, and he called me and he did say to me, if I ever need you, it's now. And I know he gave me, this is where I, I'm gonna tell you, just, okay. I know he gave me directions at some point. And here's what I see when I'm driving and I'm crossing over Meander. I'm on the phone with him and he tells me Regina and John are dead. Okay.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  Did that help spark some memory of the conversation and of him telling you when you got there? Was there anything more that?

• 35:26Speaker 07

  There's more.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 35:28Speaker 07

  So, it's accurate with him with the hood coming out and the finger. And he gets in my car where I tell you and we park where I tell you. And just let me say this, the story I was supposed to tell was that he got into a bar fight for the finger. Because he says to me, all you, all you know is that I got in a bar fight for the finger. Okay, so that's what I told you.

• 35:48Mike Boudet?

  Tom's version started with his relationship with John. He felt sorry for John because Regina was taking advantage of him. What started as a partnership had turned into a one-way street that ended with Regina being the only happy partner. She came and went as she pleased. She took John's money and did little in exchange. She even started seeing other guys and bringing them back to the house.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  So, when I met John, you know, he might have been a dirtbag in a lot of things, but I just took him as an old hippie, nice guy. He was gonna get kicked out of the house soon, but he needed someone to mow the grass. And first of all, you know, I want everybody to know that, you know, I've never had any sexual relationships with Regina.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  We met in 2005 as pen pals. And for about a year and a half, we kind of were writing a lot and had ideas of getting out, being together. Of course, then I felt a lot different than I do now about what I wanted in life and a woman. And she's always been super wild, told me a lot of crazy stories. I never realized, and of course, she's probably progressed and got worse, you know what I mean? So I never realized, you know, like until her 50th birthday, how she was drinking.

• 37:07Mike Boudet?

  If he wasn't convinced at her 50th birthday party that she was an out of control partier, an incident that happened at a gas station confirmed it. She'd been drinking. He says she came out of the restroom with toilet paper hanging out of her pants. When he politely brought it to her attention, she says, "Watch this." And she pulls it out and plasters it on the chest of a little old lady who's walking by. Gross.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  So, we didn't talk for a while, you know, a few weeks, and I ended up, um, when I needed a place to stay, and I knew that, you know, they were still entertaining that idea when I was in jail. So I called her up and she said, well, you know, she was mad at me, but I said, hey, you know, what are you mad for? You know what I mean? The way you were acting, and I can't have that. Well, so I had met John a few times, and he had confided in me that he kind of wanted her out. But she told him, like, "Well, I get mail here, so you gotta evict me." And then he was kind of like, "Well, I've known her for a while, I kind of love her." But at the same time, he's like, you know, "She don't suck my dick no more, she don't do this." And for her, you know, she, I'd seen her drunk, like, you know, "You can't get it hard, real

• 38:21Speaker 03

  nasty," you know what I mean? So I'm like, I feel bad for him, you know?

• 38:26Mike Boudet?

  He felt bad for John, so he started coaching him on how he could get rid of Regina by evicting her. It would be a bonus that he'd get to live there with John. In effect, he planned to replace Regina. Tom said he didn't have much, but he would help him in any way he could. Just not sexually. John wasn't getting that anyway.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  I ended up, you know, taking some of my stuff there because, you know, she didn't know at the time, but John was gonna try to-

• 38:55Speaker 06

  So after the 15th birthday, he took some stuff there?

• 38:58Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:58Speaker 06

  Okay, alright.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  So I took my blue bin that had my clothes in it.

• 39:02Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 39:02Speaker 03

  And I had like a duffel bag that had like my little homemade tattoo shit in it, little brown tan bag. And, you know, I wasn't like trying to like move in or nothing yet, because I didn't know what the status was gonna be as far as John getting her out of the house. I kinda was like, I'm not gonna lie to you. I said, you know, I can get you good bud, I'll keep you smoking, I'll give you 50 bucks a week, but I can't live here with her. And another reason why I really blame myself is just for entertaining the idea and telling him that about the stuff about being elderly and being able to evict her. That that's why, I guess, why she bugged the fuck out, you know what I mean? And, you know, I hear them outside yelling and arguing and the dogs are barking and the little, you know, they're loud and I'm like, I could hear it outside.

• 39:46Mike Boudet?

  So the day this all went down, John had confronted Regina. She laughed it off and said she was gonna go out and meet a guy at a bar. And they might come back to the house. While she was out, John had fallen asleep, so she texted Tom asking him to put the dogs away because she was bringing this guy back. Tom didn't want to be around for that, so he says he left.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Well, I just chose to leave. You know, I took a walk in the neighborhood because I didn't want to be there, listen to him have sex, whatever was going on. Well, I had come home and whoever the guy she had there was gone and her and John were arguing. And she's drunk.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  I mean, probably didn't take her much to get drunk anyway, she's such a little person, you know what I mean? And they're fighting, and I'm outside in the backyard, dogs are going crazy, I'm surprised nobody called the police, you know? And something just changed in the tone, and I come in, you know what I mean? I didn't come in really, I didn't want to interrupt, I didn't know what was said, and I came in and Regina was attacking him with a knife. And I stopped her, I actually got pictures, it took me, believe me, as little she is, she was pretty strong, you know what I mean? And I had a little mark here where I had a little cut, and I got a bunch of cuts on my hands trying to pull the blade from her. And that's actually how I ended up cutting my finger so bad.

• 41:12Mike Boudet?

  This is when the lies started. Every person he saw got a different explanation for why he got this cut on his finger. From his own son, to his ex at the house with his son, to his girlfriend, Alicia, and finally to the police who interviewed him the night of the burglaries. By that point, his finger was barely hanging on after he tried to super glue it. Gross. But, he knew it was bad because it was turning green and starting to smell funny.

• 41:44Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? I know shit happened that shouldn't have happened, and anyway, I just wanted to be known that I didn't kill John.

• 41:54Mike Boudet?

  The one part of the story that always stayed consistent was that he didn't kill John. He freely admitted he killed Regina, just like he freely admitted several weeks later that he robbed the salons, but he was adamant. He didn't kill John.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  And none of this shit was planned or premeditated or anything, but I ended up ripping the knife from Regina, and I threw it behind the chair and she took off, and I went and I checked John, and he was still making sounds and on the floor, and she ends up coming back with another knife, and I don't know, regular steak knife, whatever, from the kitchen, and that's when she ended up, you know, stabbing at me and cut my finger real bad. Again, I'm tussling with her, and...

• 42:40Speaker 03

  I get her to the ground and I'm trying to hold her down and you know her other hands. She's clawing at my face and my eyes and I ended up getting a knife and using it on her. You know what I mean? And I don't, I'm having nightmares about it. You know what I mean? So much to fucking live with, you know? And I wish I would have ran out of the house. You know what I mean? Cause now I gotta live with it. She was a friend. You know what I mean? And I mean, I'd be stupid to even tell my parole officer I'm about to stay here at this house.

• 43:10Mike Boudet?

  Tom maintained he never meant for any of this to happen. He just wanted to get out of prison and start over, be a good dad, continue his relationship with Alicia, except she was still married and get back to what he loved to do. Tattoos, of course, but he also loved drinking and talking. Those two traits somehow led to him committing crimes and then involved the very people he loved most in the aftermath of those crimes, even his young son.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  It was my phone. I was letting him borrow it for the night that night. The next morning I woke up, my phone was gone, my keys were gone and my Jeep was gone and I didn't talk to him for a couple of days.

• 43:53Mike Boudet?

  Tom's son thought he was helping his father, but every time Tom took more. The next morning Tommy's phone, his Jeep, and even his trust were gone.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  When he did move there, he cut his finger open and he said it was from a hedgehog, but my mom and my aunt both said it was too clean of a cut to be, not a hedgehog, but like hedge clippers. And my mom and my aunt both said it was too clean of a cut. They think it was from a knife or glass or something.

• 44:23Mike Boudet?

  What do you think?

• 44:24Speaker 03

  I'd like to believe him, but I don't know. I haven't seen a cut like that before. It was cut pretty bad.

• 44:29Mike Boudet?

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  It was like hanging off and stuff.

• 44:31Mike Boudet?

  Oh geez.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. He said he was gonna try gluing it back together, but when he was in the hospital, they just took it off for him.

• 44:38Mike Boudet?

  Tommy Jr. would later learn the truth if he didn't already suspect it. The story was shady. So was his story about why he needed Tommy to buy him duct tape and garbage bags for the finger. Poor Tommy. Since his dad got out of prison, he was invading all aspects of his life and Tommy let him because he loved him.

• 45:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, since he's been out, my, it's, my life's been so stressful. Like, I've been afraid at my house. Why, why are you afraid? I don't know if, like, he got dropped off by someone and he owes them money and they're gonna, like, come inside or something. I don't know. Okay. I just don't know. Like, I thought I knew him a little bit, but I guess I didn't. Okay.

• 45:21Mike Boudet?

  Tommy had a right to be afraid. His dad was a criminal, a murderer. The only thing the police didn't know was exactly why he murdered.

• 45:32Speaker 05

  We think you know more, Tom. Someone's telling us that in that conversation, things were brought up about what your dad did that were pretty serious. And if he told you what he did, then we need to know, Tom. He did tell me he hurt two people. Didn't say he killed anybody. He said he hurt them though. Tell us what he told you. He said that he hurt them and he said he cut his finger on the hedge clippers and that he was trying to fight them back. And that was it. He told me that he took Regina, they got her a hotel and then two black people came and were beating them up and that he was trying to defend themselves. Say that again. When was this? Did he give you any timeframe on when this happened? He said it happened late at night. Late at night?

• 46:16Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. They were sitting, he was in the, he said he was in the basement cleaning and he heard John yelling and he went upstairs and he started, like, trying to fight him with them and then they left and that's what. Couple of black males? He said two black men. He didn't, he didn't use those words. He used the, like, the racist term for them. Okay. And then he was fighting with these black males? Mm-hmm. He said that's how, he had a scratch on his head. He said that's how he got a scratch on his head was from them.

• 46:43Mike Boudet?

  This was just one more version of Tom's lies. And when he couldn't cover his tracks with his lies, he simply told Tommy not to look. Like the time he asked Tommy to pick him up at John Mann's house. This time it was to get rid of the dogs inside.

• 46:59Speaker 05

  Went back to the house. He went in and grabbed the dogs. I didn't see the dogs. He told me not to look and we drove out there. He had me pull over on the side of the street and he shushed them out. Yeah, he just told me that. They were John's dogs and that he didn't want them anymore and that John was gonna hurt him or like kill him and get rid of them. So he was gonna give him a chance at life and just let him go.

• 47:18Mike Boudet?

  The detectives didn't want to have to press Tommy. They knew he was a good kid. In fact, one officer had also been Tommy's rugby coach and had nothing but great things to say about him. Somebody did something right, but it sure wasn't his dad.

• 47:36Speaker 04

  And the last thing I want to see is anything, and this isn't trying, not trying to pit you against your dad, but you're in this position. Sadly, he put you in this position. He did. And it's sad and we feel for you. You know I do. You know what I think of you. And it's wrong, but I just want the truth, 100%. And you walk out of here and you know your conscience is clear.

• 47:59Speaker 05

  If I tell you guys now?

• 48:02Speaker 04

  Tell us now and you're not in any trouble.

• 48:04Speaker 05

  He said he killed him.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  Killed Regina and John?

• 48:08Speaker 05

  Just Regina. He said he was in the basement cleaning and he heard John upstairs screaming, saw Regina stabbing him. Tried to get in the knife away from him. And then he said he took the knife and stabbed her.

• 48:21Mike Boudet?

  Tommy's story matched the version his father gave police. That Regina had attacked John. That Tom wrestled the knife away and stabbed her. There were no other people at the house that day, black, white, or otherwise. If they could just get Tom to admit to killing both Regina and John, it was their gut feeling and the coroner's reports backed it up. John Mann's body was pierced with multiple sharp force injuries, including to the neck, ribs, collarbone, and defensive wounds on his hands and arms. Regina stood under five feet tall and didn't weigh much. Besides, Tom's version was that he intervened after only one or

• 49:06Mike Boudet?

  two stabbings. Then there was the elaborate cover-up, including commissioning a guy named Delugo to burn the house down after he'd removed the dogs and the carpeting.

• 49:19Mike Boudet?

  He used Alicia for "contact" because he was already in jail. De Lugo said, "No, he wouldn't do it." And the defensive wounds on Tom indicated a serious altercation where Tom lost control of the blade. Not to mention the lies. The overwhelming number of lies. So detectives had one more card to play with Tom. The polygraph. And when the subject turned to John Mann, Tom's story started to crack.

• 50:09Mike Boudet?

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• 50:52Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. ShopToyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota. Let's go places.

• 51:23Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 51:49Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 53:03Mike Boudet?

  It was May of 2017 in a suburb of good old Cleveland, Ohio, the home of the Browns and a whole lot of killers and even worse, Ohioans.

• 53:16Mike Boudet?

  Thomas Nuff had been out of prison for just a few weeks. He was drifting between motels, borrowing from his sons, and leaning on his girlfriend, Alicia Stoner, who drove him, gave him money, and even picked him up the morning after he killed at least one person inside the house on Nellwood Road. So yeah, you know, Tom was just living his best life. John Mann lived in that house with his partner Regina Capobianco. By then Regina had long since given up her part of the bargain for living there and was dating other men. She had also been writing to Tom while he was in prison. In fact, it was Regina and John who picked him up on the day he was released.

• 54:01Mike Boudet?

  Regina may have expected to carry on a relationship with Tom, but he already had Alicia. And he also realized that Regina's drinking and other bizarre behaviors could land him right back in prison on a parole violation. John was fed up with her, too. He wanted her gone. And Tom was all too happy to help. If Regina were out of the picture, it meant Tom could move in and finally have a stable place to reconnect with his son and have a girlfriend. On the night of May 11, 2017, something violent happened inside that house. John and Regina were both killed, their bodies hidden away. Police wouldn't discover their decomposed remains until June.

• 54:45Mike Boudet?

  In the meantime, Tom was getting rid of evidence and roping his loved ones into helping him cover his tracks.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  You know, I've always tried to tell him, even though I've done fucked up shit or I've been in jail, I always try to, you know, do the right thing. A lot of things that, you know, I did in the past. I was reckless, you know, out drunk and doing stupid shit and just being wild. But, you know, for the most part, you know, he knows. To do the right thing, you know, so that's I just if I can only be that example to him, you know what I mean? That's what I want to do for him.

• 55:17Mike Boudet?

  What he wanted to do for his son and what he actually ended up doing were two vastly different things. By May 17th, his life was spiraling. He was walking around with a finger that was barely hanging on and his freedom was also barely hanging on. In the weeks that followed, Tom didn't lie low. He went right back to his old ways. He broke into two salons, leaving a trail that would put him back on police radar. At the same time, he told everyone a different story. He told his son, he told Alicia, he told the police, a story about a drug dealer, a fight, Regina stabbing John and Tom stabbing Regina in self-defense.

• 56:01Mike Boudet?

  But there was one part he never changed. He swore he didn't kill John Mann. You know how you've heard that polygraphs are unreliable? Well, police departments across the country insist they yield a success rate of 86 to 100 percent, and Brunswick Police were counting on its reliability.

• 56:24Speaker 06

  And listen, I mean, I don't want your son to be around this, but right now he is half-smack in the middle of it.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  And that's, I mean, that's why, listen, I know, but that's why as much as, you know...

• 56:35Speaker 06

  If he's telling us you confided in him, then, you know, you killed two people and then, you know, you're confiding in him is both, both the people we found in the house.

• 56:44Speaker 03

  No, I told him the black people, and then when I ended up telling him the truth after the truck incident, I told him what it was, and I told him I was just embarrassed because I had killed a girl, and that's when I told him the truth of the matter.

• 56:58Speaker 06

  No, I want to bring this thing back up in this machine here, okay? It says you failed at saying that you'd stay a job. Okay, so I want to talk about some similarities and some stuff in the injuries of both of them.

• 57:12Speaker 06

  Want to talk about them?

• 57:15Speaker 05

  Be exactly what I was told.

• 57:17Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 57:18Speaker 05

  All right.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 57:19Speaker 05

  Okay. Regina stabbed wound in the back. Two stab wounds to the right side of the neck. Crushed Adam's apple. Right carotid artery was cut. Her left hand near her index finger, the webbing was cut.

• 57:36Speaker 06

  Cause of death. Three, two defensive wounds.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  I know, I told you.

• 57:38Speaker 05

  Cause of death. Sharp force injury and a crushed Adam's apple. Neck compression, strangulation.

• 57:46Mike Boudet?

  All of these injuries included or were in addition to the stabbings. And the polygraph had confirmation.

• 57:53Speaker 06

  You, uh, mentioned that, uh, you know, you several times that John was over there making gurgling noises like that and stuff like that. Okay. This machine says that you had, had stabbed John.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:04Speaker 06

  Okay. Let me ask you something. John had one stab wound right here. Did you help him stop everything by doing it? Is it the one? Did you do one stab wound in the John to help him out to put him on a measuring?

• 58:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 58:19Speaker 06

  If you did, that's completely understandable.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  I did it.

• 58:22Mike Boudet?

  Detectives kept giving Tom an out. They told him maybe it was an accident, an act of mercy, self-defense, and maybe things got out of control. Any of those versions could have given him a softer landing, even a shot at claiming self-defense. But Tom wouldn't take it. He stuck to his one line over and over. I didn't kill John.

• 58:47Speaker 06

  You've gotta help yourself out in this. You've gotta tell us what the hell happened in that house. You know, he, he brings up a good point. I'm gonna let you explain him to about where he thinks something happened in the argument. I'm gonna let him go ahead with that. You know? He brings up a good point as we talk. You don't like women getting beat up, do you?

• 59:06Speaker 03

  No.

• 59:07Speaker 06

  Tell me a little bit about your stepfather, right? Right? And your mom?

• 59:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:14Speaker 06

  Abusive relationship?

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:16Speaker 06

  Something about a... That happened quite frequently?

• 59:19Speaker 03

  Well, when we were younger.

• 59:21Speaker 06

  Alright, what were your feelings on that?

• 59:23Speaker 03

  I just loved my mom and I hated him at the time, you know? Even though there was times where he was a good guy. And I liked him, you know, for certain things. He would drink and use drugs and, you know, he took all his aggression out on her and, you know, she's just such always a good person. And being a kid, you know, that really hurt. You know, and to see her go back to him, you know?

• 59:49Speaker 06

  How did that make you feel?

• 59:50Speaker 03

  It hurt me, you know?

• 59:52Speaker 06

  It make you angry?

• 59:53Speaker 03

  Well, sure, I mean, it wouldn't be angry, you know? I was angry that, you know, she put up with it. But, I mean, obviously, she felt that, you know, she loved him and worked through it, you know, and they separated for like a year and got back together and...

• 1:00:08Speaker 06

  What do you think should happen to somebody that beats their wife or their girlfriend? A woman in charge of... A woman in general. I stand with you, Andy. I thought we should touch a woman. What do you think should happen to somebody?

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't feel like they should... I, you know, I mean, I can understand why some women do that, you know? Because they feel like there's no other way out.

• 1:00:28Speaker 06

  They feel trapped.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know? I feel like, you know, women even deserve that to... When a man does that, you know what I mean? That they should be able to...

• 1:00:39Speaker 06

  So, so what was John doing to Regina? What was John doing to Regina?

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  He wanted her out.

• 1:00:44Speaker 06

  What really happened?

• 1:00:45Speaker 03

  He wanted her out. He wanted her out.

• 1:00:48Speaker 06

  Was he hurting her?

• 1:00:49Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:00:50Speaker 06

  Was he hurting her, man?

• 1:00:51Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:00:52Speaker 06

  Did you see him hurt?

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  I never seen him hurt.

• 1:00:55Speaker 06

  Did she tell you he hurt her?

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  No. She told me many stories about punching on her boyfriend, you know what I mean? She never said John hurt her, you know? She said he was dirty and never changed his clothes and...

• 1:01:09Speaker 06

  I think you know that he hurt her. I think she confided in you. And you were trying to protect her. And then she'd get angry with you for what was going on with you and John.

• 1:01:21Speaker 06

  Is that what happened? Listen, man, I, I, I get it.

• 1:01:26Mike Boudet?

  This was their best hypothesis. It was the only time they'd seen Tom get this emotional, other than when he was talking about his son. They had tapped into his past to find a trigger. John was abusing Regina, and Tom was going to stop him. But Regina was used to the chaos and abuse, so she tried to stop Tom.

• 1:01:51Speaker 06

  You do realize come Monday morning during this arraignment, the media's gonna be there, man, they're gonna paint you as a monster for this, don't you? Yeah. Do you want them to paint you as a monster? Do you want you? They're gonna anyway. Yeah, but the difference is if we, if we can tell our story, we're gonna have a news conference, we're gonna give a press conference. Monday morning before your arraignment, we're telling everybody, you're here, you're being arraigned, the news is gonna be there. How, how's it gonna be? You know what I mean? Did you sit in this chair with us? Did you talk to the detectives? And did you tell us everything that happened a hundred percent to the T? Which, right now, I don't believe. Correct. Okay? And your son is gonna watch this news conference. Sure. You know what I mean? Your son's gonna watch this news conference. That, heck, pretty soon, he, he may be watching it with you somewhere else because of the trouble he's in.

• 1:02:36Speaker 06

  And Alicia as well. They're both in trouble right now with this. Too much is going on because you put them in this position. The only way for you to help them and to not paint yourself as a monster? I mean, come on. I, I, I know that you love your kid, and your kid does love you, okay? He does. But he's gonna have to live with this cloud of the media painted my father as a monster, and people know that you're his father. Would you rather just have them, him be known as, "My, my, my dad made a mistake, he fessed up to it, he did, he didn't exactly who he is." I still talk to my dad in jail. Do you want that? Or do you want everybody going, "Huh, look at, your, your dad's a monster"?

• 1:03:14Mike Boudet?

  If Tom had accepted their version of what happened, would he have gotten away with it? I mean, there was no way he wasn't going back to prison. He robbed two salons and killed a woman. These were indisputable facts. But was it chivalry gone way wrong? Or was it a premeditated attempt to secure a place of his own? It's possible no one will ever know, but the jury would seal his fate. No matter what, Tom would probably spend the rest of his life in jail. But Ohio also has the death penalty. Which is a good thing, but they should use it a lot more.

• 1:03:56Mike Boudet?

  The relationship Tom wanted with his son was never gonna happen. At least not outside of prison walls. Thomas E. Nuff Jr. was convicted of two counts of aggravated murder for killing John Mann and Regina Capobianco. Along with multiple other charges: aggravated burglary, gross abuse of a corpse, kidnapping, conspiracy, tampering with evidence, and theft-related offenses.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  There was, of course, a jury recommendation that the sentence of death be imposed. The court finds by proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the aggravating circumstances the offender was found guilty of committing outweigh the mitigating factors. Therefore, on count two, the sentence of death will be imposed upon the offender.

• 1:04:45Mike Boudet?

  This meant Tom's son lost a father.

• 1:04:49Speaker 03

  Well, and that's what I hope, just by being, you know, straight up with you guys. The things that you can't control to help with, you know, I'd appreciate. So I'm not here to fuck nobody around or be a bad guy and...

• 1:05:01Speaker 06

  No, no, nobody's saying it at all, you know what I mean?

• 1:05:05Speaker 03

  I'm saying it's enough to have to live with my faults and all the mistakes I've had in the past and letting my family down and, you know, not being there through my son's high school years when, you know, other people had their dads there at the football game and...

• 1:05:19Mike Boudet?

  Because of Tom's actions, he would never get the chance to go to one of his kids' games and walk him out onto the field. But his son wasn't the only one who suffered. Two lives were lost. Regina may have been a bit of a wild card, but she mattered to her family, to her friends. She was a person. And no matter what her life choices, she didn't deserve what happened to her. This monster took my sister from me. My heart isn't...

• 1:05:53Speaker 04

  Broken.

• 1:05:56Speaker 04

  I don't know if it will ever repair.

• 1:06:01Speaker 04

  I miss her every day.

• 1:06:05Speaker 04

  She will not get to see her sons get married. She will not get to call her grandma.

• 1:06:11Speaker 04

  And it's all because of trying to help somebody that I told her that I thought she should stay away from.

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

  I have

• 1:06:25Speaker 04

  horrible visions that I hope someday will get out of my head of the murder.

• 1:06:32Speaker 04

  And no one should ever have to have these visions of a family member. I am glad he has the death penalty. I think he deserves the death penalty. He's had a chance to plead for his life. And I'm sure my sister pleaded for her life that he chose to ignore.

• 1:06:56Mike Boudet?

  John Mann's son and sister both gave incredible heartfelt statements, and John's son spoke for more than 10 minutes.

• 1:07:04Speaker 05

  My dad was a goofy, bright and sensitive man. He loved the Cleveland Browns, watching match reruns and doing community theater. He had a full scholarship offer from Heidelberg University in astrophysics. He ended up floating into electrical contracting from his interest in solar power. He loved the idea of cheap renewable energy. He even studied to be an architect because he thought it would help him develop solar power cells. Later in life, he became a computer programmer. He truly had a gifted mind and could do just about whatever he wanted to with properly motivated. People tended to like my dad. He had a gregarious and colorful personality with an oddball sense of humor. You took my dad from me.

• 1:07:48Speaker 05

  You robbed him of the golden years of his life and the time we had together. I miss him terribly.

• 1:07:55Mike Boudet?

  He proceeded to lay out how Tom had failed as a man, as a human being, and as a father. He sympathized with Tom's son and thanked him for his bravery in enduring the trial and doing the right thing by testifying against his own father, whom he loved. But then, he surprised everyone.

• 1:08:16Speaker 05

  You do not deserve to live. You do not deserve a humane death. You butchered two people for reasons I cannot begin to comprehend. I have wanted you to die, yet I am faced with the reality that it will not and cannot be enough. In order to heal, I must accept this and find a way to reconcile it against my own feelings. I will continue to beg for his life to be spared, however impossible. I want you all to hear it from a man that wanted him dead as a son to a man whose life was ended. His father. I will beg to anyone who will listen to spare his life. I don't think we should do it for me or him.

• 1:09:00Speaker 05

  I think we should do it because it's the right thing to do for our society.

• 1:09:04Mike Boudet?

  Of course, Tom is appealing, and the legal fight will go on for years. But what lingers isn't just the courtroom drama and appeals, it's the contradiction. Tom wanted to be a good father. He wanted to prove he could do right by his son. He stayed in touch, leaned on him, even dreamed of settling down in a house where they could reconnect. But instead, he fell back into every pattern he swore he'd left behind. The lies, the violence, the selfishness that burned through everything in his path. And maybe the hardest part to make sense of is the question of whether Tom could have been telling the truth about John Mann.

• 1:09:50Mike Boudet?

  Maybe John was abusing Regina, like the detectives had suggested, and it triggered a traumatic reaction from Tom. Or maybe what happened is exactly as Tom described. John tried to evict Regina, and she went at him, so Tom intervened. Even if parts of his story are true and noble, all of his following actions say the most. Tom's choices after that night spoke the loudest. He hid the bodies, tried to hire someone to burn the place down, dumped the dogs into someone else's neighborhood, manipulated and lied to those he loved,

• 1:10:31Mike Boudet?

  dragged them into something horrible, and, most importantly, never called police. Whatever happened in that house might have started with good intentions, but what followed were really, really, really bad choices that only a complete fucking idiot would make. Then again, this is Ohio. At the end of the day, we all have to be accountable for our choices. We all have to be responsible for what we decide to do. Otherwise, what the fuck are we doing here? Today, Thomas Nuff's son is grown. He's built a life that has nothing to do with Parma Heights

• 1:11:14Mike Boudet?

  or with the crimes his father committed there. He's well-adjusted, stable, and in 2023, he got married. Whatever cycle Tom was trapped in, his son has escaped it. Good for him. And maybe that's the real ending here. Not the death sentence, not the deaths, not the appeals, but the fact that even out of something so violent and tragic, like a phoenix rising from the ashes, a different kind of life is actually possible.

• 1:12:37Mike Boudet?

  That's gonna do it for another one. Thanks for joining us. If you like the show, head on over to SwordAndScale.com, get the app, get plus. We'll see you next week. Stay safe.

• 1:14:04Mike Boudet?

  That's gonna do it for another one. Thanks for joining us. If you like the show, head on over to SwordAndScale.com, get the app, get plus. We'll see you next week. Stay safe.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis,

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis. ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, Study Mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.