Pod Insights Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi 201. “I make $40k… but I own 100+ suits” About this episode Today’s episode takes us to New York City, where I sit down with not two, but three couples live on stage at my Money for Couples event.
First, meet Antonio (23) and Devonta (23), a young couple who in their 20s are already ahead of the game—earning money while finishing their degrees, having real conversations about finances, and even purchasing a home together.
Next, we meet Pam (38) and Nic (40), who are struggling with a classic money dynamic: one partner earns significantly more and wants to “rescue” the other from financial stress. But as they discover, money alone can’t solve deeper issues of self-worth and financial confidence.
And finally, for the first time ever on this show, a very special surprise guest joins me on stage. You don’t want to miss this!
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Links mentioned in this episode
• Order my new book: Money for Couples
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• Get Money Coaching with Ramit
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If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.
Transcript 12,536 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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2:36 Ramit Sethi? What's up, New York? Whoa. As a student, you make 40K a year? What the hell?
2:42 Speaker 01 So it's kind of hard. We moved from the apartment to a house. All these bills just keep coming in.
2:46 Ramit Sethi? Hold on, hold on. I gotta do it. Are you telling me that when you buy a house, there are certain costs you did not account for? How many suits you have?
2:55 Speaker 02 Probably about 100.
2:56 Ramit Sethi? What?
2:57 Speaker 03 I'm like tagging along in this relationship. I'm like, well, that's really nice. We get to do cool things because Pam said we could.
3:04 Ramit Sethi? You want me to just tell you the answer?
3:05 Speaker 04 Yeah.
3:06 Ramit Sethi? No, that's not how it works. We are living in La La Land right now.
3:17 Ramit Sethi? On today's episode, you'll get to join me on the third stop of my live book tour in a city that is very special to me, New York City. I loved being on the road for this tour and experiencing Boston and Chicago was unbelievable. But there is something special about coming home and having the opportunity to get onstage in my own backyard. Today, I will speak with two couples at completely different ends of the socioeconomic spectrum. And that is one of my favorite things about New York. We have a huge melting pot of all different backgrounds, culturally, financially, and we get to explore it today. Now, let's get to the show.
3:56 Ramit Sethi? Yes. Whoa. What's up, New York?
4:03 Ramit Sethi? Whoa. Love to see it. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Oh, my God. All right. Welcome, everybody. It feels great to be back in New York. I lived here a long time. I met my wife here. And living here, you realize money here is different than money in other cities. Right? How many of us have been scrolling on social media? We're just scrolling, having a nice time. And then you see some [BLEEP] who posts, "Hey, who wants to live in New York in a one-bedroom apartment? Uh, if you lived in my city,
4:46 Ramit Sethi? you could buy a house like this." And then they show you the ugliest [BLEEP] house you've ever seen in your life. I go, "Who wants to live in a field, surrounded by wheat and a Wells Fargo?" I hate Wells Fargo. See, what people don't understand is that New York is like a cosmic vortex of finance, right? You wake up, you go outside, you go to work, you come home, you kick off your shoes, and then you just realize, "I spent $375. I don't know why." It's New York. They will never understand it, but we do. Like, in another city, you walk into a breakfast place. You know, you sit down, you have your meal, you go, "Yummy, I'm so full." And you give them a $10 bill,
5:31 Ramit Sethi? and you get change back. Here, I saw somebody this morning order a bagel at Apollo's Bagels. That bagel was $15 [BLEEP] dollars. They won't get it, but we do. Don't even bother trying to explain it to them, it's hopeless. What they don't understand is that real wealth in New York is not just about the clothes that you're wearing. It's not about the bag that you're carrying, it's none of that. Y'all want to hear the real levels of wealth in New York? Let me tell you. Level one,
6:07 Ramit Sethi? you have an elevator in your building. Let me hear you if this is you. Is this you? Wow! Wow, wow, wow. If this is you, you have officially made it. You are not climbing up a fifth-floor walk-up in August in Flatbush. Well done, well done, well done. Level two wealth in New York.
6:26 Ramit Sethi? You have a dishwasher in your apartment. Let me hear it if this is wow, wow, wow, wow. Every night you finish putting stuff in the dishwasher. You close it.
6:37 Ramit Sethi? You wipe your hands and you just stare at that dishwasher and you say a prayer. Thank you, Lord. I don't have to scrub off my skin for the next 15 minutes. And then use 20 paper towels to clean off my counter because I have no space to store these dishes. Thank you. Hallelujah. That's level two.
6:57 Ramit Sethi? Level three wealth in New York. Laundry in your unit. Wow, yes, yes. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have laundry in your unit, you are ballin'. Okay, you definitely work at a job where you make so much you can't contribute to your Roth IRA. Okay.
7:16 Ramit Sethi? Now. Level four wealth in New York. Which they will never understand. But we do.
7:28 Ramit Sethi? Central air conditioning. Exactly. You know what I'm talking about. You know, you know, I'm talking about central air. You just turn on a switch, it cools the whole place down. Not that rattly old box that's three months away from falling out of your window and killing someone. If you have central air in your apartment, you are worth at least $10 million.
7:49 Ramit Sethi? And now for the ultimate level of wealth in New York. This is level five wealth. Can you guess what it is?
8:01 Ramit Sethi? No, it's not a car. It's not owning a Birkin. It's not even a summer house in the Hamptons. If you live in New York. And you have an in sync garbage disposal, you are [bleep] rich. Like Richie Rich. Yes, like use my house in Aspen because I'm never there, Rich. That's rich. Okay?
8:29 Ramit Sethi? Now I'm telling you, I'm telling you, they will never understand. But we do.
8:38 Ramit Sethi? Now, I love New York because I love the levels of wealth. I love talking about money. And I've had some of my best conversations about money in New York. People open up and they tell you things that you can't believe they're saying. And you never know what to expect, like tonight. We get to explore one of the most fascinating and under-explored relationships in our lives. And that is our relationship with money. So, I want your help to welcome our guests who are coming out. Please get on your feet and give a huge welcome to Antonio and Devante.
9:20 Ramit Sethi? Hello, how you doing? How's it going?
9:24 Speaker 01 It's good, pretty good.
9:25 Ramit Sethi? How you all feeling?
9:27 Speaker 02 Excited.
9:28 Ramit Sethi? Nervous? Alright, is this crowd here for them?
9:33 Ramit Sethi? They are here for you. Thank you so much for being here. Now, who applied to come up here?
9:40 Speaker 01 I did.
9:40 Ramit Sethi? You did, okay. Is that normal in your relationship when it comes to money? Are you the more assertive one with money?
9:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
9:47 Ramit Sethi? Okay, alright. Now, I understand that you are both young and you both recently bought a house and you're getting married this year. Is that right?
9:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:58 Ramit Sethi? Alright. So you told us that you feel like you're not able to get ahead with your savings goals. Now, before we get into all that, I just want to say I talk to a lot of different folks. Different incomes, different locations, different situations. One of my favorite things in the world to do is to talk to young people. Because the fact that you are up here asking the right questions early on is amazing. And you have the time to set your life up the way you want to. So can we give it up for them? Young, asking these questions! Oh my God! You're 23 years old?
10:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:39 Ramit Sethi? Amazing. How many people here wish they started optimizing their money at 23? Damn, look at that! Look at that! That's gotta feel good seeing that.
10:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:49 Ramit Sethi? You're doing it right. Okay, great. So, I want to know a little bit about your financial dynamic. Income-wise, you both earn similar or different incomes?
10:58 Speaker 01 Different.
10:59 Speaker 02 Different.
10:59 Ramit Sethi? Okay, break it down for me.
11:00 Speaker 01 So I'm a registered nurse, so I earn like 65.
11:05 Speaker 01 So sixty-five K a year.
11:06 Ramit Sethi? Sixty-five, okay.
11:08 Speaker 02 And I'm a full-time college student and I work part-time and I have a residential cleaning business.
11:13 Ramit Sethi? Okay. How much you make from that?
11:15 Speaker 02 For my cleaning business, this year I made twenty thousand dollars. And for my part-time income, I make around twenty thousand dollars, so I have like forty K a year.
11:24 Ramit Sethi? As a student, you make forty K a year? What the hell?
11:29 Ramit Sethi? I feel like this is gonna be very easy for me. All right, twenty-three-year-old making good money, great. Now, this was a role reversal because y'all switched incomes recently. Explain that a little bit.
11:43 Speaker 02 So basically, last year, me and Antonio was in apartment. And he was going to school full-time in his accelerated program. And I was working part-time, but I was also doing my cleaning business. So like financially, we're in a better position. We didn't have the house, so we didn't have like this much debt. I was basically covering the majority of everything because the bills weren't that much. Like our granny was helping us financially with the rent. So we just had to cover like the utilities and then like eating, you know, everyday expenses, which wasn't that much. So I was basically like the sole provider while he was going to school. And he was in accelerated program, working one day a week.
12:20 Ramit Sethi? All right.
12:20 Speaker 02 So I was.
12:21 Ramit Sethi? And it flipped now?
12:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:22 Ramit Sethi? All right, so how do you feel about that, Antonio?
12:25 Speaker 01 So I'm not used to like per se being like the breadwinner or like provider role. So it's kind of hard because like we moved from the apartment to a house. And then it's like all these bills just keep coming in.
12:37 Ramit Sethi? What do you mean? Hold on, hold on. I gotta do it. Are you telling me that when you buy a house, there are certain costs you did not account for?
12:47 Speaker 02 Well, we did, but.
12:50 Speaker 01 I didn't think it was gonna get like that.
12:55 Ramit Sethi? Thank you so much. Thank you. Feel so good right now. All right, there's a lot of phantom costs in owning, that's for sure. Okay. And you mentioned something, you said, "I'm not used to being the provider." That's interesting. How would you characterize each of your financial roles in the relationship?
13:13 Speaker 01 So he usually, like in the past, would handle more of like the bills and stuff like, I know they're coming, but I wouldn't see them.
13:24 Speaker 02 True.
13:24 Ramit Sethi? You knew they were coming like spiritually?
13:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, like you know, I know like first of the month's the rent.
13:31 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
13:31 Speaker 01 I knew how much the rent costs, but I just knew like it was handled. Or I don't know like, or I don't know like, like the water bill or something like that was coming.
13:40 Ramit Sethi? What about for you?
13:42 Speaker 01 For me, I more so handle like saving our money or like just planning it out.
13:49 Ramit Sethi? Okay. What do you say?
13:50 Speaker 02 Um, like basically what he was saying, like I would take care of all the bills. Um, I'm kind of like a splurger, so I would kind of like buy us things like take us out to eat and stuff like that.
13:59 Ramit Sethi? What do you splurge on?
14:00 Speaker 02 Um, suits.
14:02 Ramit Sethi? What?
14:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:04 Ramit Sethi? What? Like how many suits do you have?
14:06 Speaker 02 Um, so usually like I, I travel a lot and I do like a lot of events because I'm a business major. So usually when it's like an event or anything like that, I will always buy a, a brand new suit to go to the events.
14:17 Ramit Sethi? Notice how he did not answer my question. How many suits?
14:22 Speaker 02 Uh, probably about a hundred.
14:24 Ramit Sethi? What? Are you serious? You have a hundred suits?
14:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:31 Ramit Sethi? Oh my God. What? I did not know that. What am I supposed to do with this information? Like, how do you have enough closet space for that?
14:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's closet space, so I make closet space and then I have like a wardrobe full of the suits.
14:44 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
14:45 Speaker 02 And then like the ones I can't fit anymore, I just give away.
14:48 Ramit Sethi? Do you think that it's normal to have a hundred suits? Legit. No. What do you think would be like a average amount of suits for a, a man?
14:56 Speaker 02 Probably twenty.
14:57 Ramit Sethi? Twelve.
15:01 Ramit Sethi? Yo. We are living in La La Land right now. All right. Okay. I was gonna ask if you all were aligned on savings goals, but I feel like the answer is no.
15:15 Speaker 01 We're aligned with like the mission of like, we both want financial freedom.
15:19 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
15:19 Speaker 01 And... Our definition of that, like per se, like we just want to not have to worry about like money or and have like the luxury of traveling because that's our passion. So we are aligned in essence.
15:31 Ramit Sethi? Hold on. So financial freedom for you is not worrying about money and traveling?
15:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:38 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Do you think you'll be able to achieve that?
15:41 Speaker 01 Down the line, yeah.
15:42 Speaker 02 I think definitely we'll be able to achieve it. So like buying this house was like our first like financial investment to financial freedom because like real estate, I believe real estate is the way to get into like to start financial freedom. So that was why the decision for buying the house. So we want to retire before 50. So that's our goal.
15:58 Ramit Sethi? Okay, got it. That's helpful. I like that specificity. Okay, great. So Antonio, you're more frugal with saving?
16:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:08 Ramit Sethi? Like, how many suits do you have?
16:10 Speaker 01 I have like probably like five.
16:12 Ramit Sethi? Five. All right. So like, what do you say when he comes home with another suit?
16:18 Speaker 01 So yeah, he likes to every event or conference. He'll go out like, oh, I gotta get a new suit. I'm like, well, no, you got you got suits in the closet. And so I I kind of just tell him like to like restyle it. But he doesn't want to restyle it. He wants like a new one. So I be telling him like, you know, every time it's not needed.
16:36 Ramit Sethi? Did you buy a new suit like for this trip?
16:38 Speaker 02 No.
16:39 Ramit Sethi? Okay, okay. All right. That's interesting. So right now, it's like, you know, it's kind of funny. What happens if you keep that pattern up for the next 10 years where, you know, you're buying a suit? And and then you're like, ah, do you really need a suit? Why are you buying a suit? What happens as the numbers get bigger and the stakes get higher?
17:01 Speaker 01 Um, I feel like there does be like kind of some tension when it comes to like his surging in a sense. Because like sometimes I feel like it's unnecessary. And I feel like if it keeps going on, it's like we're going further and further from like our goals.
17:15 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
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20:13 Ramit Sethi? If you had $10,000 extra, what would you do with it?
20:18 Speaker 02 Well, I wouldn't buy no more suits. I think I have enough suits. I would probably say buy another house or invest into another like real estate property or something like that.
20:26 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so if that's the case, then if you have like 500 bucks, it sounds like you go and buy another suit. So what's the difference?
20:34 Speaker 02 So the difference is like, I guess because I have way more money. So I feel like if I have that, if I look at it at that number, then I'm like, okay, I have to do something big. I have to invest this money and not, you know, utilize that $500 to buy another suit. So I think because I like, I see like the three, $400, I'm like, okay, I can extra that I have. So I'm like, I can just take this and buy another suit or something like that.
20:57 Ramit Sethi? It's like whatever I see, it gets spent.
20:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:59 Ramit Sethi? If there was a big chunk, I might invest it in something.
21:01 Speaker 02 Definitely.
21:02 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Antonio, when you think about the 100 suits, etc., how does it make you feel?
21:11 Speaker 01 I would get annoyed for that reason. Yeah.
21:14 Ramit Sethi? Like for me, like 15 suits is annoyed.
21:20 Ramit Sethi? Like forty is a different word and a hundred is a different word.
21:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:24 Ramit Sethi? What do you think? That's me. You tell me.
21:27 Speaker 02 Well, yeah, I feel like it gets kind of like excessive in a sense because it doesn't need to be splurged like that.
21:33 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. That's why I'm trying to understand this idea because you describe yourself sometimes as a splurger, Devante. And then you tell me of a hundred suits, that's what you splurge on. You know, sometimes I ask people, what would you spend more money on? And if they like to eat out, they will go, oh, I would eat out four times a week. I think the, in your case, it's I like suits, I would buy a hundred suits. And sometimes I ask them, what if you ate at a nicer restaurant? What if you got a custom meal, a custom suit made? Have you ever thought about that?
22:05 Speaker 02 No, I haven't.
22:06 Ramit Sethi? Really?
22:06 Speaker 02 Hmm.
22:07 Ramit Sethi? Tell me more.
22:08 Speaker 02 So no, I haven't really thought about it like that. I don't know, like it just for each event that I want to attend, I just want to look nice and want to, you know, stand out. So that's why, you know, buy another suit.
22:20 Ramit Sethi? Is the idea that, deep down, is the belief more is better?
22:28 Speaker 02 I would say kinda because growing up, like both of my parents were on social security. So they, you know, they have five kids. So they didn't have like, there was no money like for any, for us or anything like that. And then I didn't have the money to like go get new clothes and like I want to, or just dress nicer and look nice. So I think as I got older and I got access to this money and I'm going to these different events and I'm seeing these like industry leaders looking nice, I kind of want to resemble that or, you know, like embody that. So that's why I go out and make sure I look nice. And like first impressions is key for me.
23:00 Ramit Sethi? I get all that. I don't get the hundred. So like what I'm trying to get at is, I don't mind nice things. I like them too. But when I hear that the two of you have a vision of retiring before 50, and I hear 10, 20, 50, 100 suits, I start to go, right now, you're earning what you're earning as a. Student, soon you're gonna earn a lot more. That's a lot more money. I suspect you'd probably be tempted to get a lot more suits. I would, if I bought a hundred suits, I'd want, it's like eating tortilla chips. I eat ten chips, I want twenty more. Right?
23:36 Speaker 02 Right.
23:37 Ramit Sethi? So, what I'm trying to really get at here is, what's the vision? Individually and together. I hear the together vision, which is retire before fifty, financial freedom, I love it. I don't hear how the individual vision contributes to that.
23:53 Speaker 02 I believe like, once I get older, um, I won't, or once I make more money, I won't buy any more suits. I think that's kind of just like a now thing.
23:59 Ramit Sethi? Hold on, how many people in this room, um, uh, cheer if you believe that?
24:08 Ramit Sethi? Dude, nobody buys less of things they love when they make more money. They buy more.
24:15 Speaker 02 Right.
24:15 Ramit Sethi? There's not, there's no prob, I'm not, trust me, I'm not the guy who tells you, don't spend money on suits or lattes, or I don't, that's not me. What I'm trying to get at is, what's the vision? Do I, if I wanna look great, one way to do it is to have dozens of suits. Another way is to have a certain number of suits and to restyle them. And maybe the suit quality goes up.
24:37 Ramit Sethi? Or maybe it's the same, but I have twenty different shirts. And I want you to really think about it, because the decisions you make today carry through for the next twenty, thirty years. Okay? How do y'all set your accounts up?
24:50 Speaker 01 So, we have a joint checking account where like, all of our bills come out of like, the fixed costs. We have a high-yield savings account, um, together, and then we have personal high-yield savings accounts.
25:02 Ramit Sethi? Great. Okay, great, amazing. And are you planning a wedding right now?
25:06 Speaker 01 So, I don't want a wedding because of the cost. So, we decided to like, just elope and do something private with both of us.
25:13 Ramit Sethi? Cool. I love that.
25:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:15 Ramit Sethi? I love that. You know what I love? To me, big wedding, small wedding, it's all good. What I love is that the two of you talked about it.
25:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:23 Ramit Sethi? And you decided, this is for us. So, that's beautiful. Let's take a quick look at the numbers here. All right, so what we see here is assets of one hundred and fifty-seven K. Investments 5,000, debt is 185, total net worth of about 20K, gross annual income of 100K approximately, fixed costs at 61% and investments at 9. I mean, how do you all feel about these numbers?
25:51 Speaker 01 I feel okay a little bit. I mean, I'm proud of like where I came from, from like where I started. I just more so feel like the debt component, like it gives me like anxiety.
26:03 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
26:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, same, I feel the same way. I feel like our numbers are pretty good. I feel like they could be better and I just want us to like work on paying down the debt. I don't like to see that, that high of a number with, for debt.
26:17 Ramit Sethi? Okay, I, I think your CSP is pretty good, honestly. For 23 years old, I think it's really good. And you got a student, like you're not even earning your full-time income, correct? So this is solid and it's really important. When we talk about money, it's like a window into our soul. It tells you how people feel. So did you notice how the two of you answered a question? It was very similar. I said, how do you feel about those numbers? What was your answer?
26:47 Speaker 01 Good, but anxious about the debt.
26:49 Ramit Sethi? Yes.
26:50 Speaker 02 Good, but don't like to see that high of a number with debt.
26:52 Ramit Sethi? Exactly. So you guys were like, it's good, but anyway, I feel really horrible about it. We gotta fix this and that. Like you glided over the good so quickly.
27:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:00 Ramit Sethi? And I wonder what would it look and feel like if you actually spent more time on the good? I once had a performance review for one of my teammates coming up and I have this group of CEOs I'm in a group with. And they were like, are you ready for the performance review? And I always find them challenging. And they said, how good is this employee? I said, oh, he's really good. They said like on a percentage, one to 100, how good is he? I said, he's 90%, like great. They said, in your performance review, which is going to be an hour, how much time are you planning to be positive versus constructive? And it just immediately hit me because I was going to say a couple of nice things
27:42 Ramit Sethi? and then spend the rest of the time focusing on all the things that he could do better. And they taught me to flip it. If something's good, spend a lot of time on the good. Yes, we can fix the the stuff that needs to be fixed, like the debt. But sometimes it really helps to really lean into that feeling of good. You guys think you can do that?
28:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, definitely focus more on it.
28:04 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, all right, celebrate. Twenty three, you got these numbers. Quick calculations, very simple calculations. If on one income, if you just continue, you'll have one point six million dollars at retirement.
28:18 Speaker 01 That's great.
28:19 Ramit Sethi? Okay, that's good.
28:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:21 Ramit Sethi? If you have two incomes,
28:24 Ramit Sethi? that's three point one million dollars.
28:26 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
28:26 Ramit Sethi? Okay, and y'all, we didn't add in any increases in incomes. None of it. So you know that if you were like, we want to make, we want to have four million or five million, you could do that because you're twenty three years old and tiny little changes now echo twenty five years down the road, thirty years. So now I'm going to ask you again, how do you feel about those numbers?
28:55 Speaker 01 We're in a great position.
29:01 Ramit Sethi? Yes, look at that smile. That's what I'm talking about. Feeling good, really leaning into that, celebrating with each other. We did it. Look how far we came. Look how we grew up. Look where we are now and look where we get to go together. That to me is really powerful. How do you think that that will change the dynamic of your money conversations going forward?
29:25 Speaker 01 Um, I feel like we have money conversations like almost like weekly, but it's
29:29 Ramit Sethi? Wait, what do you talk about weekly?
29:31 Speaker 01 Like we'll just like reflect over like kind of like where we're at like financial wise, like what we have to pay and things like that. We're like, we're right now is like a lot of worry conversation, like worried about like
29:43 Ramit Sethi? That's so surprising.
29:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, because like I'm a perfectionist, so I kind of like in like a tense about like paying off certain things that we have, so I kind of go overboard.
29:53 Ramit Sethi? Oh, wow. So out of a thirty minute conversation, it's not thirty, is it? How long is the conversation?
30:00 Speaker 01 Sometimes it's thirty, but if we get like really deep into it, maybe like an hour, maybe.
30:03 Ramit Sethi? Okay, out of an hour, how much of it is positive versus negative?
30:07 Speaker 01 I would like percentage wise, we're probably seventy-five percent like negative, then twenty-five percent positive.
30:14 Ramit Sethi? Okay. That's honest. That's actually how most money conversations like ninety plus percent negative. Cause really, the only time people talk about money is when they're fighting. And then they go, ah, let's go to sleep and pretend this didn't happen. And let's wait for another six weeks until it comes up again. So the fact that you're actually proactive about it is amazing. I think a week is kind of aggressive. Like, gosh, that's like, what do we need to talk about every week? If we've set things up to flow smoothly, if each person owns a couple of numbers, probably a week, you may not need to do it, but I'll leave that to you. Typically, I say every month, some people do it every week or bi-weekly. That's up to you.
30:56 Ramit Sethi? But I would really just, you know, some of the stuff in the book is how to have these money conversations be positive. We always start with a compliment. We always give each other a hug, a high five. At the end, really re-characterize them. One thing that I would really remind myself of if I were in your situation is we're on a single income for right now, but as a temporary situation. When do you start a full-time job?
31:22 Speaker 02 So potentially the fall of twenty twenty-six.
31:27 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Do you know how much you'll make when you start that?
31:29 Speaker 02 Um, yeah, so starting salary is about seventy-five to eighty-five K.
31:34 Ramit Sethi? Damn. All right, so that's a lot. I mean, that's gonna be great. So have you all talked about what, where the money's gonna flow when you make that much?
31:44 Speaker 02 Um, yeah, I believe we talked about it. Yeah, did we?
31:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, like right now. Kind of sticking on the same plan of like, I kind of, we kind of wanna switch to like living off of one income and then using the other income to just save or invest like how we want to. So I feel like that's kind of where we wanna stick to, but.
32:03 Ramit Sethi? Where's the suit, suit money gonna come from? No kidding, really, where is it?
32:08 Speaker 02 So it's gonna probably come from my portion. So I'm probably gonna be paying all the bills and we're gonna be living off my income. So I'm gonna make sure I have a little bit for probably my suits.
32:17 Ramit Sethi? Like how much?
32:19 Speaker 02 Um, probably a year, probably, I wanna say like five thousand.
32:23 Ramit Sethi? Five thousand a year off a hundred K?
32:25 Speaker 02 Yep.
32:25 Ramit Sethi? Okay. It's not my money, it's not my position to say. I think that if the two of you set your accounts up right, which my suggestion would be shared joint account, and then you each have, you have some joint guilt-free money, things like eating out, trips, all that stuff that's important to you, and then you each have some individual guilt-free money, then that guilt-free money that's individual is no questions asked. If you want to buy another suit, it's your money. No questions. But, it's got to come from there. Can't come from the joint money because that suit doesn't make sense for the joint. So that's why I really love setting this money up
33:07 Ramit Sethi? so that each of us has individual, no questions asked money, and within that, it's yours to play with. Your partner knows about your account. They don't even have access to the account, though. It's yours, and you have your own as well. Each of you do what you want. If you set that up, and you two come up with a vision as teammates, this is how much we're going to have. Our incomes are about to go up significantly because we're going to combine them, we're going to have another income, and we have this vision of maybe buying another property, retiring at 50, traveling. I think you'd be very, very successful. All right. Let's give it up for Antonio and Devonte. Thank you very much. Well done. Great to see you guys. Thank you very much.
33:52 Ramit Sethi? You know, I have to say, it's rare that I get a chance to speak with such a young couple, and I have to applaud them for thinking about their finances at 23 years old. And hearing their story is a great reminder that how we talk about money influences the way we feel about money. And in order to feel better about money, we could probably benefit from spending a little bit of time celebrating how far we've come, as opposed to just dwelling on what we don't yet have. Wait until you hear their follow-ups at the end of this episode. I am blown away by the progress they've made in a really short time. I think you will be too. We'll get back to the show after a quick break to support our sponsors.
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36:04 Ramit Sethi? You know, I have a program where I teach people how to start and grow their businesses. It's called Earnable, and in that program, I ask the students to text a friend saying, "Hey, what do you think my top five talents are?" After they start getting responses in a few minutes, they are shocked at all of the things they're good at, and they didn't even realize it. Having someone reflect back can change everything. That's what growing feels like. That's why I recommend getting therapy so often on this podcast. And Grow Therapy can help you find the right therapist for you. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Grow connects you to thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US. Work with your schedule.
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37:26 Ramit Sethi? Now, let's get back to the show and meet our second couple, Pam and Nick. Please get on your feet and welcome Pam and Nick.
37:36 Ramit Sethi? Welcome.
37:39 Ramit Sethi? Hello. How you doing? Welcome, please. Hi. All right. Hello. How you doing?
37:48 Speaker 03 Good.
37:49 Ramit Sethi? How you feeling?
37:50 Speaker 03 Nervous. Nervous.
37:51 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Can we give it up?
37:56 Ramit Sethi? We have the best community in the world. We're all here for you. By the way, I asked you to send a photo. You sent these great photos and my team selected one of the photos you sent. Can we take a look here?
38:15 Ramit Sethi? I do love the photo. I don't think I need many comments here.
38:19 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Now Pam, I want to just jump right into what you wrote in your application for today. You said, "Biggest challenge, trying to figure out whether my partner, Nick, can stop working, given my high income. We both come from low-income backgrounds and a lot of financial insecurity during our childhood. We both used to be avoiders and we're now trying to be in charge of our money." First of all, I gotta say, I really admire the fact that the two of you were avoiders, grew up in a low-income environment, and you are here right now in New York, talking about this in front of tons of people. To me, that's very inspiring.
39:04 Ramit Sethi? Thank you.
39:06 Ramit Sethi? What did you feel about money when you were growing up?
39:13 Speaker 03 Never enough. There were times where we didn't have a home to live in. And so it was something that we just didn't have. And thus was like sort of the crux of insecurity, lack of safety.
39:33 Ramit Sethi? How did money work in your family? Like, did you have a dwindling bank account or a stack of cash in the house? What was it like?
39:41 Speaker 03 I don't even know if my mom had a bank account. My mom was on welfare for most of my growing up. I remember very clearly a wad of cash that she would keep in her dresser drawer in her bedroom. And I would just see through the month that roll getting smaller. And when it was out, we were like, OK, well, now we just have to make it through until the next check comes in the mail.
40:04 Ramit Sethi? Wow, OK. Thank you for sharing that. What about for you? How did you feel about money?
40:10 Speaker 05 It was definitely, there was always a culture of working as hard as possible, like grinding to earn enough. I immigrated with my family when I was 10 years old. So there was also the switch to moving to the US and leaving everything behind and starting from zero and learning a new language. So it was just a lot of, yeah, a lot of having to figure out how to earn money.
40:36 Ramit Sethi? Wow. I don't think that many people can understand what it's like to move to a different country or to see a stack of cash getting smaller and smaller, and you know that that is it. I think we all have some feeling where, oh, my God, is there going to be enough? And you're here today. You're here today because your financial situation has changed considerably.
41:04 Ramit Sethi? But there's some other issues, some other psychological and communication challenges, I think, still remain. Pam, how did you get into your current industry, tech?
41:16 Speaker 05 Yeah, I got my master's degree in Italian. And then when I graduated with that, I basically applied to like 200 jobs anywhere in the country that needed that skillset. And then I got hired by a tech startup that was working on teaching foreign languages.
41:38 Ramit Sethi? Okay. A big one that probably people in this room have heard of?
41:41 Speaker 05 Yeah, it's called Duolingo.
41:42 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Okay. And then what were you doing there?
41:49 Speaker 05 So I was working as a language expert, helping to create course content.
41:55 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
41:56 Speaker 05 So like all the weird sentences.
41:58 Ramit Sethi? Cool.
41:59 Speaker 05 And then while I was there, I was working with a lot of bright software engineers, a lot of bright product designers, and I learned technical skills through that.
42:10 Ramit Sethi? Okay. And take me forward to today. Where are you now? What do you do?
42:15 Speaker 05 So now I work in software engineering. I do like large-scale program management.
42:21 Ramit Sethi? So you said, quote, "I had no business in tech, but I kept learning and getting promoted." Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. Can we just take a look at the numbers? Okay, pop them up. Let's take a look. Gross monthly income, if I just net it out for you, is $633,000 a year. That's what I love. That's what I love. You know, sometimes I have couples, they have all different incomes that come on stage. Sometimes they're in huge debt, sometimes they have huge incomes. And it's a little touchy to talk about a huge income.
43:02 Ramit Sethi? But on the occasions where I've brought couples up here who have a very high income, the crowd always cheers. And I really love you for that because we can support people who are in debt, we can support people who have huge incomes. It doesn't, the whole point of my work is that the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to how much you have in the bank. And so I really appreciate you sharing that. You have, you have zero... Zero dollars in assets. So that means you rent. Great.
43:35 Ramit Sethi? Your investments are $865,000. Fantastic. Saving $69,000, debt 228.
43:44 Speaker 03 That's all my student loans.
43:45 Ramit Sethi? Ah, okay, we'll get to that. And I mean, the rest of this is like fixed costs are 38%. Yeah, that's what happens when you have a super high income. How do you feel about the numbers?
43:55 Speaker 03 Amazing.
43:57 Ramit Sethi? Great, wow.
44:00 Ramit Sethi? Thank God. I don't have to talk to another high earning couple that goes, oh, I don't know. 630 isn't enough. Great, I love that answer. I feel amazing. Great. How about you? How do you feel about the numbers?
44:13 Speaker 03 I feel like I'm really fortunate.
44:18 Speaker 03 My contribution is significantly less in terms of the totals. And I also come along with that debt component.
44:27 Ramit Sethi? Right.
44:28 Speaker 03 I feel fortunate to be where we are together. Maybe a little bit of guilt in my portion.
44:36 Ramit Sethi? Right, okay, so to clarify, you're not married. Your, are your finances combined or not?
44:43 Speaker 03 We just moved in together in August. And our goal is to merge finances and figure out what that looks like.
44:51 Ramit Sethi? And Nick, what is your income?
44:53 Speaker 03 My income?
44:54 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
44:56 Speaker 03 153.
44:59 Ramit Sethi? That's pretty good.
45:02 Ramit Sethi? It sounds like you say it like you're a little bit embarrassed. That's a very good income.
45:06 Speaker 03 Right, well, I worked really hard to get there and then I made it. And I met everyone that, you know, by comparison, I was like, oh, wait. I guess maybe I didn't do as well as I thought I was doing.
45:21 Ramit Sethi? So like when we talk about comparing ourselves to the Joneses, it's literally this. Except it's income and not material things, okay? Well, we all think your income is great. And combined, great. And combined, it's outstanding. So, all right, let's talk about that. Nick, you have debt. What is the debt from?
45:45 Speaker 03 It's all school.
45:46 Ramit Sethi? Okay. How do you feel about it?
45:49 Speaker 03 I wish I could have a conversation now with the person who decided to sign those loans.
45:56 Ramit Sethi? What would you have said?
45:57 Speaker 03 You can get this degree at a less expensive school.
46:01 Ramit Sethi? What was the degree?
46:02 Speaker 03 I'm a nurse practitioner.
46:03 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so you got 228 or so thousand dollars of debt. Do you feel proud of the schooling that you went through?
46:15 Speaker 03 Yeah, I worked really tremendously hard. So I am proud of that.
46:22 Ramit Sethi? Do you feel ashamed of having the debt?
46:25 Speaker 03 Yes, 100%.
46:27 Ramit Sethi? How do you reconcile those two?
46:30 Speaker 03 I guess the idea that I could have done it differently.
46:35 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Kind of looking back, if I had changed this, I would be in a different place. Okay. How does that feeling of shame or regret, how's that affect your relationship?
46:49 Speaker 03 There's sort of like, you know, the mean voice sort of in the back of my head that I'm bringing a burden into the relationship. And I told Pam early on that part of the reason that I would never marry somebody is because I'm not going to saddle them with poor decisions that I made.
47:11 Ramit Sethi? Again, this was a decision to get a professional degree?
47:16 Speaker 03 Yes.
47:16 Ramit Sethi? Which makes you a good income. Okay, all right. Is that, if you had no debt, would you all be talking about marriage in a different way?
47:27 Speaker 03 It's not the only reason. We have our own thoughts around marriage as a sort of institution.
47:35 Ramit Sethi? Okay, all right. So, right now, you don't plan to get married, totally fine. And you're committed, you're living together, you're trying to figure out how to combine your finances, but you have this looming thing over your head with the quarter million dollars or so of debt. Okay? What's the solution that you've come up with?
47:56 Speaker 05 So, when I look at the debt, we basically broke it out into, most of that is a public loan that qualifies for the public service loan forgiveness. So, we sort of decided to put that aside and think about the private part of that loan, which is around 56,000. And like Nick upped her contribution to try to sort of get out of that debt faster. And I offered that I would like to contribute to that.
48:28 Ramit Sethi? How much?
48:30 Speaker 05 So she's contributing like 1,700 and I'm starting to contribute 2,000.
48:36 Ramit Sethi? More than her?
48:38 Speaker 05 On top of first, yeah.
48:40 Ramit Sethi? Okay. I want everyone to think about what you would do if you're in this situation. It's quite interesting, right? Lots of layers. How would you approach it? We ran some simple calculations. Because there's so many things, there's forbearance, there's different policy changes that may happen, there's a lot of complexity. But when you have a big decision where there's like 50 different things, it's often easy to get paralyzed. Important thing is, put all the minor things aside and focus on the two or three big things that matter. So in your case, Nick, you could pay it off at 1,500 bucks a month. It'll take you about 13 and a half years. Did you know that?
49:18 Speaker 03 Yes, I ran some numbers.
49:21 Ramit Sethi? Oh, you did?
49:22 Speaker 03 Yeah.
49:22 Ramit Sethi? That's awesome. Wow, okay, great. Pam? You could match Nick's payment. That would take it down to 6.5 years. How do you all feel about that?
49:36 Speaker 05 I feel good. I mean, I really, I want to get rid of it for her sake, but also like us as a team, so that it's not something that we have to think about.
49:46 Ramit Sethi? What about you, Nick?
49:50 Speaker 03 I think that's really nice and generous.
49:57 Ramit Sethi? Keep going. Is there a but?
50:02 Speaker 03 There's not a but. It's, it's a little bit uncomfortable, like, accepting help, essentially.
50:11 Ramit Sethi? Why?
50:12 Speaker 03 Because I, I've essentially been on my own since I was 18 and worked really hard and pretty much just told myself I only have myself to count on.
50:24 Ramit Sethi? Yep.
50:24 Speaker 03 And I found myself in a really amazing situation that I have somebody I'm entirely in love with and want to spend my life with and is incredible and able to help me and I, I'm working on feeling enthusiastic about that.
50:44 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Okay. That's pretty interesting.
50:52 Ramit Sethi? It's a perfect example of the way we feel about money is not correlated because if we just look at the numbers here, you could basically write a check or certainly pay it off very, very quickly. There are so many layers of this that are subtle and not obvious. Like, for example, the fact that when you get married, it's a contract with each other and with the state, so you know what happens if you separate. Now, some people choose to do it, some people don't, it's totally fine. You just have to understand the ramifications of what that means. But the other layers I find even more interesting, which are we have a higher earner and a lower earner. And often, there are these dynamics that come along with it.
51:33 Ramit Sethi? Have you noticed the dynamics that happen when one person earns a lot more than the other?
51:40 Speaker 05 I don't think so.
51:41 Ramit Sethi? No? Is it all like, how do you all split the money?
51:46 Speaker 05 Well, so, uh, I actually followed this from watching some of your content. Uh, I proposed to Nick early on in our relationship that we should do proportional.
51:56 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
51:58 Speaker 05 Things, because when we added up our income, I think I brought in like seventy-five percent and she brought in twenty-five percent.
52:04 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
52:05 Speaker 05 And so I said, like, that's how we should treat our expenses. Like, I'll cover seventy-five percent of the things, then she covers.
52:14 Ramit Sethi? Okay, that's good, especially when you have a, you know, when you're in exactly the situation, makes sense. But I'm going back to your question, Pam, which was,
52:23 Ramit Sethi? can my partner Nick stop working, given my high income? Isn't that the question?
52:28 Speaker 05 Yeah.
52:29 Ramit Sethi? So how are you all navigating that?
52:31 Speaker 05 We're here.
52:35 Ramit Sethi? You want me to just tell you the answer?
52:37 Speaker 05 Yeah, please.
52:39 Ramit Sethi? No, that's not how it works. That's not why people come to see me. Well, what do you think? What are the ingredients in the decision? Because technically, I guess she could quit.
52:49 Speaker 05 Yeah, that's sort of how I was looking at it. Like, when I looked at our numbers together, I was like, you know, and it doesn't have to be right away, or necessarily even like quit a hundred percent, but could she reduce her workload? She works in an industry that's very draining.
53:05 Ramit Sethi? Okay, maybe we should ask her. What do you think?
53:08 Speaker 03 So, I originally proposed we do this because it's something that she had sort of remarked on offhandedly a few times, that because I'm incredibly mentally and emotionally drained after work each day, and I end up feeling like I don't have a lot left of myself outside of work. And hearing me talk about this, she, you know, offered up, well, maybe you don't have to, to work as much.
53:35 Ramit Sethi? How, how long after you bringing up your stressful workplace, until you, Pam, suggested maybe you don't need to work there?
53:45 Ramit Sethi? Like, was it a week or a year?
53:49 Speaker 03 Oh, pretty immediate.
53:51 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
53:52 Speaker 03 Yeah.
53:52 Ramit Sethi? Big clue. Okay, so you're like, hey, maybe. You shouldn't work, or you should cut back down. We have the income, etc.
54:00 Speaker 05 Yeah, and I frame it more as like, it's something we should consider. Like, as we're considering, like, we're thinking about our life, our future together. It's an option.
54:08 Ramit Sethi? Okay, how decisive are the two of you with money?
54:12 Ramit Sethi? Okay, I think that kind of answers my question. Like, is there a lot of, like, collaboration? Let's talk about it, versus, I think this is what we should do. I think that's what we should do, and we hash it out. Which one is it?
54:27 Speaker 03 I don't think there's a lot of planning.
54:30 Ramit Sethi? Okay, all right. The reason I am asking these questions is that I see this pattern a lot among couples. And I've observed it more with a male higher earner, who's in a heterosexual relationship, and he tells his partner who earns less, sometimes way less, "Hey, like, why don't you, like, quit that? You don't, you don't need to do it, and, like, we have enough, and it's great. And I want to take care of you, and I don't want you to be stressed, and you can find something else." What do you think happens a year, two years, five years, 10 years later?
55:07 Speaker 05 Something bad.
55:10 Ramit Sethi? Good, that was a good read of a leading question.
55:14 Ramit Sethi? It's, it's... What do you think, Nick? What happens?
55:18 Speaker 03 I mean, my natural fear is that there would be some sort of resentment.
55:21 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, that could be it. Often, it's very disempowering. It's very disempowering for the lower earner, and it actually is done in good faith. "Hey, we have the money." You know, if you're stressed every day, cool it off for a while, chill, find something else, etc. But it can be quite disempowering. So, in a way, when I see the same pattern, Nick, I see you nodding your head. What's going on?
55:42 Speaker 03 Well, I'm like, yeah, we could.
55:44 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Do you see, like, right now, it's kind of, like, it's a bit funny, but a year or two into it, it's not funny? It's actually quite disempowering. So my suggestion, if I can just be a little bit directive, is first I would really rethink the way that you talk about your debt. Because, you know, you used the word ashamed. I don't find it shameful that you took on a lot of debt to get a great job. I think you made a calculated decision. Maybe you spent more than you could have, but you're a nurse practitioner, you have a great job. I think you should be very proud of that, okay?
56:26 Ramit Sethi? And then next, I would really encourage you to put more skin in the game for your finances. So just because Pam, you earn more, actually think that you should be asking Nick, Nick, what do you think? What's your plan? And Nick, you've got to take the lead. If you want to make a proposal where you say, look, I'd like to pay this debt off, I'm gonna pay this much, it would be really nice, although you don't have to, if you could contribute X dollars. Or I'm going to take a vacation, or speak to my boss, or find a different way of a lifestyle adjustment. But it's gotta be you leading it, because it's your debt. And trust me, when you do that, the fact that you already ran your numbers is very impressive, most don't.
57:11 Ramit Sethi? If you do that, you're gonna feel more empowered, you're actually going to be substantively more a part of the financial conversation. And the two of you should always remember, just because one person makes more does not make them more valuable. So many different ways to contribute to a relationship, but you've both gotta be active in it. How does that sound?
57:31 Speaker 05 Right.
57:32 Ramit Sethi? Okay. So the new theme is teammates. If I can gently suggest the new theme is decisive with money. You can run the numbers, make a decision, you can always reevaluate it 12 months later, always. If you can do that, I think you'll be very, very successful. All right, all right. Can we give it up? Pam and Nick.
57:53 Speaker 05 Thank you.
57:54 Ramit Sethi? Thank you very much. You know, I really love this conversation with Pam and Nick. A lot of times, money can be a tool that helps us solve problems. But actually, that's not the case here. Yes, Pam can write a check and solve one of Nick's debt problems. That's the financial part. But it actually wouldn't do anything to solve the psychological part. It wouldn't help Nick feel any less shame. And in fact, it could be damaging to their relationship because Nick attaches a lot of self-worth to what she can contribute financially. This is a very common dynamic. The higher earner often sees a problem that can theoretically be solved with money. And they think, okay, cool, I'll write a check, make this thing disappear. But that's not actually addressing the root cause,
58:38 Ramit Sethi? which is that Nick does not feel she is contributing as much because of her earnings compared to her partner. That's where the work is for Nick. If Pam simply waves a magic wand and takes away that debt or tells her, you can quit your job, it won't erase that feeling of being less than for Nick, even though Pam is trying to help. And this is why I love my job. I get to look at the whole picture, the money, the person, the dynamic of the couple. To me, the truth is, Nick should be proud. And I think she can get there, but she has to do it with her partner, not because of her partner.
59:15 Ramit Sethi? I have a simple rule in my life. If it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist. If it's important to me, I want to put it on my calendar. Work meetings, haircuts, dinners with friends, taking a trip. This calendar is shared so that other important people in my life can also get on the same page. Now, if you're trying to figure out your schedule for you and your kids, your family, that becomes even more complicated, which is why so many families love Skylight Calendar. Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together for more time. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, etc., making it easier to instantly look at your day, week, or month plans.
59:57 Ramit Sethi? Calendar, you can manage events, chores and grocery lists by assigning colors for each of your family members, meaning no one can say they didn't know what they needed to do. My coworkers say it's a game changer for their families. Plus, it comes with a four-month, 100% happiness guarantee. If you don't love it after four months, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/ramit. Go to myskylight.com/ramit for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. That's M Y S K Y L I G H T dot com slash ramit.
1:00:42 Ramit Sethi? Let's get back to the show. You're about to see something I have never done before.
1:00:48 Ramit Sethi? Now, I have one final surprise for you this evening.
1:00:53 Ramit Sethi? We have a third couple who volunteered at the very last minute. Here's their profile. The husband is a typical optimizer.
1:01:04 Ramit Sethi? And the wife is... Well, let's just find out. For the first time ever onstage, introducing my wife, Cassandra Sati.
1:01:22 Speaker 06 Hi, babe.
1:01:23 Ramit Sethi? Love you.
1:01:28 Ramit Sethi? Whoa, how come you get more applause than I do?
1:01:32 Ramit Sethi? Wow, welcome.
1:01:34 Speaker 06 Thank you. Hey, everyone. Hey, what's up, Brooklyn?
1:01:39 Ramit Sethi? How does it feel to be out here?
1:01:40 Speaker 06 It's so cool. It's so cool to see everyone. I'm usually in the audience, so it's cool to be up here.
1:01:45 Ramit Sethi? Thank you for being here. Okay, I have some questions because you've never been onstage before.
1:01:51 Speaker 06 No.
1:01:52 Ramit Sethi? And you are highly requested by my entire community.
1:02:00 Ramit Sethi? So, first question is, what is it like being married to an optimizer?
1:02:06 Speaker 06 Good question. I would say now I enjoy it. It took us a while to get here, though, because we have different money dials and money languages. And now I have to say, I appreciate Ramit's love of a good spreadsheet, of running a compound interest calculator for fun. So, these are things I love about him. I will say one thing, though, that I thought all optimizers were good at Excel. So I was a little surprised to learn that Ramit did not know some basic formulas.
1:02:45 Ramit Sethi? You now run the spreadsheets in our family.
1:02:47 Speaker 06 Yes, I do.
1:02:48 Ramit Sethi? Thank God for that.
1:02:49 Speaker 06 I love a good formula.
1:02:49 Ramit Sethi? She's so good. Okay, wow. I think, next up, how did it feel when we started combining our finances?
1:03:01 Speaker 06 Yeah, for me, it was very nerve-wracking and we had a lot of very difficult conversations as well. And now I realize it's because we come from different backgrounds with money, different cultures. We saw our life differently with money in it. And so, we had a lot of conversations, easy and hard ones. We talked about the F-word, feelings, a lot, which I love.
1:03:27 Ramit Sethi? Wait, tell them what you asked me the other, like, two days ago when the book came out as a bestseller.
1:03:33 Speaker 06 Yeah, so it was announced that his second book is a New York Times bestseller, which is awesome. And so I'm like, babe, how do you feel about this? And he's like, I feel good. I'm like, you can't use the G-word, so in our household, you can't use good.
1:03:50 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, she said, you're not allowed to use good, and I was like, uh-oh. And then I wish that we had the Wheel of Emotions. We got this.
1:03:57 Speaker 06 Yes, we love this.
1:03:59 Ramit Sethi? We use this.
1:04:00 Speaker 06 It's like a refrigerator.
1:04:00 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, literally, we got this from our therapist. And I was like, oh my God, there's more than two feelings?
1:04:07 Speaker 06 Yes. All the guys in here take a screen. Look at it, people are taking pictures.
1:04:12 Ramit Sethi? You freaking nerds! No, it's good, it's actually really helpful. And had I had that, I would have said, I would have looked at the happy one. I would have said, I feel joyful, like that.
1:04:27 Speaker 06 Or no, you would say, "I feel happy."
1:04:31 Ramit Sethi? That's a true work in progress.
1:04:33 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:04:33 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Final question. What do you wish you knew back then? Like, early on in our relationship, that you know now?
1:04:45 Speaker 06 Yeah, I would say the power of doing individual work on Money Mindset really set us up to have a strong foundation together. So I did a lot of work with reading books. I hired a Money Mindset coach and it also coincided when I started my business. So that was awesome. So we did a lot of work individually and that has really paid off for us in the long term.
1:05:09 Ramit Sethi? That is very true. That's, give it up.
1:05:11 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:05:12 Ramit Sethi? You did an amazing amount of work about money psychology and how you felt about it. And it showed. It really showed. And then I think you were very clear. You expected me to do a similar amount of work for feelings. Being able to connect on the emotional level, which has, like, it's been amazing. It's been transformative.
1:05:35 Speaker 06 Yeah, and now our conversations are fun with money. We can dream together and plan out what we want to do. So it's been awesome.
1:05:43 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Let's give it up for Cassandra Satie. Wow. Wow. Too good. That was amazing.
1:05:50 Speaker 06 Love you. Love you.
1:05:51 Ramit Sethi? Let's give it up, Cassandra.
1:05:58 Ramit Sethi? Was anyone as nervous as me seeing my wife come out on stage? I have to tell you, I was terrified. I'm not kidding. I'm used to getting out on stage in front of lots of people and the lights and it's freezing on stage and the noises. But asking Cassandra to come out made me incredibly nervous. I was nervous for her. And then she comes out on stage and crushes it. I, I could not believe it. I knew she would be good, even though I was nervous, but I didn't realize she would be that amazing on stage. And the funniest part is she has no interest in being on stage at all. She came out because I asked her to. And that is why I love doing what I do. Not only do I get to talk to couples about some of the most intimate things in their relationships,
1:06:43 Ramit Sethi? I'm having those same conversations with my wife. We're both talking about how we grew up, what we want to do with money, and I don't know if we should be spending this much on that thing. And then she comes out on stage and she gets to share her experience. So I want to give a huge thank you to my wife Cassandra. And if you enjoyed seeing her, please leave a thank you in the comments. Remember, a lot of this podcast is because of her.
1:07:10 Ramit Sethi? Wow. Let me close with a story that I have never told anyone. I just, a few months ago, went to my 20th college reunion. And I was asked by one of my friends at my table. She said, "What has become clear to you since we last met?" That's a question I never heard before. Hearing Cassandra out here, it connects for me personally because you can see how far each of us has had to come in order to have a really happy, healthy relationship. And I was sitting out there on the quad at my reunion, the quad that I used to ride my bike to get to class every day for five years.
1:07:54 Ramit Sethi? And I flashback to 18-year-old Ramit. 18-year-old Ramit, who thought that success was about getting good grades and getting a good job. And he truly believed if you get the right pedigree, then you will be happy. That's not what I told my friend. That's not the answer I gave her. I really thought about it and I said, "You know, the most valuable thing that I have done in the last 20 years was to connect to my softer side, to connect with my feelings." And that meant becoming a better listener, becoming more compassionate with others, more compassionate with myself.
1:08:38 Ramit Sethi? And if you have followed along on my work for many years, you will see that. That actually shows you how big of a difference it can make when you truly turn the page on your identity, right? The old you won't even recognize who the new you has become.
1:08:59 Ramit Sethi? And I couldn't have done that transformation alone. I had friends, family, and especially my amazing wife, who encouraged me to connect on a much deeper level. And that's one of the reasons that I talk about this stuff so much with money. It's not just about fiddling around with a spreadsheet. It's really about the total transformation of the way you look at money and feel about money. And I get to do that together with her, because she has given me a new lens to view the world through. It's bigger, richer, more fun. And I will always remember that very special day with her. We were checking out of a hotel. I had gone to the parking lot to get the car.
1:09:44 Ramit Sethi? And I drove the car around to pick her up. And the valet saw me. And he took one look at me, and he took one look at my car. Honda Accord, four-door, LX V6. He looks back at me, and he says, "Uber drivers, pull over there." And I realized, no matter how much money you have, the best and most priceless thing is to keep that sense of humor. I just hope Cass gives me a five-star review in life. I appreciate you coming here. My best wish is that you share what you have learned with everyone you love. Thank you, New York.
1:10:29 Ramit Sethi? Thank you.
1:10:35 Ramit Sethi? You know, for me, the most important thing I want you to take away from this podcast is that your rich life is yours. It's not mine, it's not anybody else's, it's for you. If you want a beautiful car or a beautiful coat, and you can afford it, Fantastic. If you want to travel, if you want to pick your kids up from school every afternoon, amazing. You decide what your rich life is. Now, I hope you can tell, I love doing these shows. I love them. Being able to speak to couples in front of an audience, seeing the audience's reaction and going to different cities and hearing from you. I want to remind everyone how brave it is for these couples to come out on stage and talk about such an intimate
1:11:18 Ramit Sethi? topic. Antonio and Devonte, Pam and Nick, thank you for sharing your stories and thank you to everyone for watching and listening to this podcast. Now, let's check out their follow-ups. First is Antonio and Devonte.
1:11:32 Speaker 02 So after I sit down with you, we decided to take a look at our finances and also just to make some decisions and make some changes. So currently, I no longer have 100 suits. I'm down to 10 suits now. So I gave some away and I sold some. And so with the money that I got from selling the suits, we decided to use that to pay off our debt. We got rid of that debt. So that was one of the big financial decisions that we decided to make.
1:12:00 Speaker 01 That was a little big emotional purchase for us. So to clear it, it was like, it felt good in a sense. And then we also like reduced the suits. But then we just also had like more positive outlook on like our financial situation, knowing that it has so much potential to be so much more in the future. We like stay on this path and like stay focused. And we also like checking less now. We're checking like my money at probably on a monthly basis as of right now. And it's been like so much like less stressful in a sense.
1:12:27 Speaker 02 It was a great experience and we're glad we got to talk to you and you got to give us that reassurance that we're on the right path and that we're doing good and also to not be so down about our finances and actually, you know, have a positive outlook. So we really appreciate you and thank you for that.
1:12:45 Speaker 01 Thank you so much.
1:12:46 Speaker 04 The biggest surprise for me was seeing that as a higher earner in our relationship, my instinct to offer to cover most of our expenses could actually be leaving Nick feeling disempowered. So a key takeaway for me has definitely been That I need to step back and let her share the lead on our money decisions. One of the key changes we've made is scheduling monthly money reviews. So we actually just had our January review and it was really awesome. We pulled up Ramit's list of money dials and we talked about which dials were important to each of us. And we shared examples of what we love spending on and called out which things weren't a priority to us. So that really helped us to agree on a specific amount for our shared guilt free spending.
1:13:30 Speaker 04 And now that we know that amount, it has allowed each of us to be creative and brainstorm ways to use it. Another key change is that we're having more future focused conversations. So we're talking about financial, legal, healthcare protections that we want to have for our relationship. And we've actually set a goal to get those documents drafted this month. Ramit pointed out that we have previously struggled with being decisive. So that's something we're definitely working on. I just want to say thank you to Ramit and the entire team for all of the thoughtful advice.
1:14:09 Speaker 03 I've always been really avoidant when it comes to money. But I didn't recognize how that was translating into my relationship with Pam. And we pride ourselves on functioning as a team. In not being an active participant when it came to our shared numbers, I was really leaving her on her own to take the lead. And I was mostly just feeling lucky to be there. I'm fully engaged, often initiating discussions myself. And that has really provided fruitful opportunities to collaborate and dream towards building our rich life. The major sources of financial stress and really shame were my student loans and feeling behind in my retirement savings.
1:14:51 Speaker 03 I've increased my contributions to my employer retirement account from six to 16%. And so I'll be maxing that out this year for my loans. I created I made a plan to pay off my private student loan before the end of the year, while my federal loan is in deferment. And since that loan qualifies for public service loan forgiveness, it will be eligible for forgiveness after 75 more payments, which means I would be debt-free in a little over seven years. So there have been so many small but decisive changes made since we began this process, and they all add up to me feeling a lot more confident, which is not something that I ever thought I could feel about money, and also really optimistic about our future.
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