Hacks for Deeper Relationships, Enjoyable Career, and Fulfilling Life with Liz Moody

We loved chatting with wellness journalist and podcaster Liz Moody, and you do not want to miss this jam-packed episode of insightful and actionable advice on life, love, and career. Liz shares her story of having so much anxiety she couldn't leave the house, and how she overcame it with evidence-based, small steps. We discuss how to have deeper relationships with friends and romantic partners – the conversations you have (and how to level them up), what you share about yourself and how it connects you to people, how to actually be there for a friend in need, and the concept of "bidding" and how it strengthens a partnership. Liz defines and explains "psychological richness" and how to have and recognize this in your own life and in others', and we discuss what we think is going to make us happy vs. what actually makes us happy and why people aren't fulfilled when they achieve "the thing." We also talk about the things that drain your energy, actions to improve your energy, and tips for cutting back on scrolling. Before Liz joins us, Ashley pops off about a shirt she is sick of seeing, Rayna was traumatized taking out the trash, and we break down a shocking cheating email from a listener. Enjoy! Follow Liz Moody on Instagram @lizmoody and listen to The Liz Moody Podcast. Follow us @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Julie Care: Find Julie at CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, Target, Amazon and GoPuff across all 50 states. No age restrictions and no ID required, ever. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Skims: Get our favorite bras and underwear at https://skims.com/gge. Hungry Root: Get 40% off your first box and free item in every box for life at https://hungryroot.com/GGE with code GGE. Ollie: Get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe at http://ollie.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that we're always trying to like grow and evolve and change ourselves. And yet we don't often create the space for the people that we love the most to do that as well.

• 0:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back.

• 0:31Rayna Greenberg?

  So as of today, we will be back from two of your bachelorette parties.

• 0:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, we'll recap it next week. We're about to head out. If I seem irritable today, it's because I'm wearing a bodysuit.

• 0:42Rayna Greenberg?

  You're wearing a bodysuit? What a throwback.

• 0:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina, I bought this bodysuit before I really retired them. I feel like I'm taking after you. You said you were out on them and I was like, what? And I'm like, I can't feel like this anymore.

• 0:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I got into crops and I've just, I've been enjoying that crop life.

• 1:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Crop top more than me. Like I wear a bra top, but like, I really liked this, but

• 1:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Perfect talk.

• 1:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  I really feel like that Victoria Ratcliffe quote where I'm just not meant to live an uncomfortable life. And that's how I feel in a bodysuit. Why is this in my labia and my butt crack?

• 1:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you feel hyper aware that your shirt is in your butthole?

• 1:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's just, it's just the discomfort and I'm not trying to live this life anymore. And I have so many and I was going through some outfits for some different shows with Lillian. She's been helping me and I was like, God, my like red bodysuit from the holiday shows last year. That one is just so tight. That's a vagina thong.

• 1:39Rayna Greenberg?

  So when we were in Denver for your shows, I wore a red strapless bodysuit to do sets.

• 1:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I have the same bodysuit and nothing is tighter on your fupa than that bodysuit. I don't know what it is about it. I could never wear it. I had to send it back.

• 1:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I was the biggest tire I've ever walked around with.

• 2:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's slicing into your thigh meat.

• 2:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes. And I had no sleeves either. It was strapless. And so I was just like, my shirt was hanging on by a wish and a prayer on that stage.

• 2:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I recently ordered one that I really loved. I saw it online. It was Alice in Olivia. I was like, I have to have that bodysuit. It's like pink and silky. I worked for this like TV thing recently and I ordered it in a size up. And then I got it taken in just so I could have the panty be bigger down there. It's better that way, but this one is not.

• 2:29Rayna Greenberg?

  You do be needing a bigger panty. You're long. You have a long torso.

• 2:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have a long vagina.

• 2:34Rayna Greenberg?

  You do.

• 2:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's concerning.

• 2:36Rayna Greenberg?

  You have a big fubetwatt.

• 2:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  The length of my vagina is concerning to strangers.

• 2:42Rayna Greenberg?

  And a long butt crack. You've been saying that for years.

• 2:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I come from a long line of long butt cracks.

• 2:47Rayna Greenberg?

  And I have, well, not that much anymore, but I used to have huge boobs. So it also.

• 2:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right now I needed to have, I have these like little D cups. Sometimes I just look in the mirror. I've told you so many times to stop this. It feels, it's so offensive to me.

• 3:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm just a flat titted nobody now with my D cups.

• 3:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyway, guys, thank you to Julie Care. I'm sick of hearing about this. I've told her time and again.

• 3:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm getting a breast.

• 3:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have zero tits. And I have to hear from you.

• 3:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but it suits your nice body. Long legs. That's not your thing. Boobs aren't your thing. Boobs were always my thing. I don't have a thing anymore.

• 3:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Alright, fine. Yeah, abs and legs. And crepey skin.

• 3:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, okay. No, I think I look great. Anyways. I think we both look great. I love your long butt crack and my small boobs. Okay, anyways, they're gonna care about this. Julie Care. Alright, we're gonna thank our partners and then we're gonna jump right in. Thanks to Julie Care. Girls, girls, everywhere can find Julie at CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, Target, Amazon, and GoPuff across all 50 states. No age restrictions and no ID required ever. And Rocket Money, cancel your unwanted subscriptions at rocketmoney.com/gge. And Skims, get our favorite present underwear at skims.com/gge.

• 4:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Hungry Root. Get 40% off your first box and a free item in every box for life at hungryroot.com/gge with code GGE. And thank you to Ollie. Get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe at ollie.com/gge.

• 4:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I have to tell you this thing. I had like a crazy Fear Factor moment this morning. It's gonna make your skin crawl. I, so I woke up to take my own trash out because I don't have a man. I'm an independent woman and I do it every morning. It's, I, the trash, they come really early. They come at like 6:45. So I get up at like 6:30, I go downstairs, I take it out. And I don't know why, I like wheeled my trash can out. I got distracted for something and I had my hand on like the trash can for 20 seconds. And I realized something was like crawling up my arm and I looked down and there was hundreds of ants on my hand and my arm, like crawling upwards towards my chest.

• 4:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  They just got on you that quick?

• 4:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I do not know how they did it. It was just crawling up my body. I like freaked out. I like brushed it off. I had to get in the shower at 6:45 in the morning, which you know, I hate showers.

• 5:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just like the worst time of day to take a shower. It was so horrifying.

• 5:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  The ants from the studio followed you home. We saw ants in here yesterday.

• 5:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been seeing a lot of ants.

• 5:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can take over your life.

• 5:15Rayna Greenberg?

  August, but August in LA, what is happening?

• 5:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  What does that have to do with anything?

• 5:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I've just been seeing them a lot. August in LA, apparently.

• 5:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I'll tell you what happened to me today and over the weekend. Why have in the past three days, I have seen two men wearing shirts in giant letters that say, who ate all the pussy?

• 5:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  So the first one being at our farmer's market on Saturday, where there are children and families and this like 20 something kid was walking around with his like backwards hat and his like pants sagging and a giant sweatshirt that said, who ate all the pussy? Giant letters, taking up the entire hoodie.

• 6:04Rayna Greenberg?

  The whole front of it.

• 6:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Like you could see it from miles away. I spotted it from like all the way across the farmer's market. He came over, he sat down and like, we have like a little live band and then the families are all there and everybody's kind of having their coffees. We do it every Saturday. It's like my favorite part of the week. He's there amongst the children.

• 6:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Normal people on a Saturday.

• 6:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Who ate all the pussy?

• 6:24Rayna Greenberg?

  This criminal.

• 6:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I was like, at what point is like free speech? Well, it's 2025. So you know, that's on the way out. But like prior to this administration and we, when we really felt like we had free speech, like, can your clothing be regulated? Like you can't wear something that says like, I have a bomb on me. Like, is that's a threat? Like, is it a threat is the line?

• 6:44Rayna Greenberg?

  You could wear something with a giant swastika on it. If you wanted to, you could wear a Confederate flag if you wanted to.

• 6:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like actual words, like the, the N word? I mean, can you walk around with,

• 6:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure.

• 6:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  whatever you want in your clothing?

• 6:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Why not? People say those things out loud. You could, you could do anything you want.

• 7:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can't start shouting certain things. That's threatening.

• 7:05Rayna Greenberg?

  You can't start shouting.

• 7:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can't just go into a farmer's market and be like, I'm going to kill everybody in here. You could get arrested for that.

• 7:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Cause that is an actual threat.

• 7:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  But can you wear a threat? I'm going to kill you.

• 7:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, I don't know.

• 7:18Rayna Greenberg?

  If it's verbal versus a T-shirt, you just could argue it's less of a threat. But I want to know, what does it mean? Like, who ate all the pussy and like, left no crumbs for me? Like, or is he like, that's me, who? Like, I ate all the pussy.

• 7:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, like, I ate all, like, I'm the pussy monster?

• 7:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 7:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's kind of, to me, it's like, you cannot get pussy, sir. Like, looking at you.

• 7:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, to me, he's not threatening anybody. He's just like, who ate all the pussy? And I would, save me some.

• 7:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  So that's not even the climax? So today, I'm driving, just 30 minutes ago, about to turn onto Venice Boulevard from our studio. And there's like, a man in the tra, in traffic, like, standing in the middle of the two lanes of traffic, like, acting erratic. And, you know, disheveled looking man, just can assume he's of the streets.

• 8:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Venice, it's very Venice.

• 8:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  And his back is to me, and I'm like, I gotta be care, I don't want to run that man over. He's in between cars. He turns around, giant sweatshirt, who ate all the pussy?

• 8:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Stole it from that guy at the farmer's market.

• 8:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  I said, how the fuck have I seen two who ate all the pussy sweatshirts in two days? And so I'm like, this is crazy. And I'm not going to take a picture of it and whatever. Like, I was like, I'll just remember it.

• 8:26Rayna Greenberg?

  You don't, you got that mental picture?

• 8:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Rena, I, I'm like, re-traumatized telling the story. I am at the stoplight, and I look down at my phone. I'm sending Anushka a text about Sonoma and Napa hotel wrecks.

• 8:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  I look up, he is right there! Rena, I screamed!

• 8:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, framed in the window, pussy.

• 8:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, like, anyone right at your window, even if you were right there.

• 8:51Rayna Greenberg?

  If you were, it would scare me.

• 8:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  I scream, I go, ah! Like, literally screamed at my car. Who ate all the pussy in my window?

• 8:58Rayna Greenberg?

  He wanted to know. He was like, hi, ma'am.

• 9:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, that is, I started shaking, just anyone when you're, like, you look up and they're at your car. I mean, oh, my gosh.

• 9:06Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I'm, I'm like, such a nerd. I'm the person that kind of like, reaches slowly down to like, lock the window, always.

• 9:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyone at your car. Do you remember this one time? This one of the scariest moments of my life. Weren't we in Miami? And we, Rena stopped, because I think about this sometimes. Weren't we in Miami? We were in the car, we were with like, Merrill, I think, the three of us. We were leaving a dinner in Miami at the place with like, the dancers and the, we sit at the bar, and then the dancers and the water features outside.

• 9:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, it's upstairs. It's a rooftop in Miami. It's really popular.

• 9:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  We had pasta for dessert. Remember the whole thing?

• 9:38Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it's really popular. It's like the most popular. Well.

• 9:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  You guys get it. Remember, we were in an Uber in like stop and go traffic, going down the main drag.

• 9:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Lincoln.

• 9:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  In Miami Beach and two people from both sides of the car lifted up our door handles and opened our doors. Do you remember this? And I was like, this is it.

• 9:55Rayna Greenberg?

  This is how we die.

• 9:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a carjacking. Like this, it's happening. I felt like I've never felt so scared in my life and they just thought it was their Uber and that was it. But I, that feeling of just like, oh my God.

• 10:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 10:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Someone's in my car. Like it's happening.

• 10:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm always disappointed when those things happen because well, other than like the sheer fear, I know how I would act in an emergency and it's not well.

• 10:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I think I'm a freeze girly.

• 10:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Fight, flight or freeze.

• 10:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I think I'm freeze. I want to be fight or flight. But I'm not fight in most situations. Like when somebody verbally attacks me, I'll jump. Like I just, also women in general are taught, I think, to be careful not to fight back, you know?

• 10:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I just, I think I've, luckily I haven't had so much like trauma in my life where I have to really think about these responses. That's why I think I am a freeze. I'm not used to it, but.

• 10:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel my stomach drop into my ass. I get nauseous. I blackout. I can't see every, every single night when I think someone's breaking into my house. 365, I start to panic.

• 10:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, anyway, who ate all the pussy? I am sick of seeing this shirt.

• 10:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Is this somebody's like phrase? Is this like a comedian's phrase or like a?

• 11:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's to me.

• 11:02Rayna Greenberg?

  A lyric in a song.

• 11:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  It just feels like a really offensive garment that you see on like a boardwalk shop. You know what I mean?

• 11:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Like it's just. Venice boardwalk. Yes.

• 11:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 11:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I've seen it on the Venice boardwalk.

• 11:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I mean, remember when we went to, we were in Cabo for my 40th and they, they came up to me and they had all the like, had bands. Like they were like, show me all the sayings. Remember this? And it was just like. I don't know, it was like one dick forever. And it was like, all these like graphic sexual sayings and we were like dying laughing. You looked it up.

• 11:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I looked it up for you, but does this look like one of the shirts?

• 11:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent. Yeah, just giant block letters. Who ate all the pussy?

• 11:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Just like a Venice boardwalk shirt.

• 11:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think you're right. So guys, hit the Venice boardwalk, code G G E.

• 11:44Rayna Greenberg?

  It's Spencer's.

• 11:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, Spencer's, exactly. Spencer Gifts, like stuff like that. But I'm just like, there's this little girl. We see her most weeks at the farmer's market. She's clearly old enough to read. I think she must have been in a car accident recently. She has a very like Regina George thing on going on right now, like the thing above her head, like to keep her like spine straight. And she just, she's still so cute. I'm like, she can read that. This little girl is gonna say, what is pussy? Who ate all the pussy?

• 12:11Rayna Greenberg?

  She's gonna learn soon. According to Spencer's website, it's a hilarious graphic tee and the perfect way to show off your sense of humor.

• 12:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, the perfect way to never get pussy again.

• 12:21Rayna Greenberg?

  What woman is like, that's my.

• 12:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's the guy I wanted to eat my pussy. A hundred percent. That's him.

• 12:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel like he would be good at it. I feel like he'd just be trying too hard.

• 12:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  No.

• 12:30Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, it'd be like one of those times where it's just like too wet and you're like, I can't even feel anything.

• 12:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's like Nikki Glaser, like her bit about the guys that are too enthusiastic. It's like, not you. Yes, we want a guy that wants to eat pussy, but not you.

• 12:42Rayna Greenberg?

  In the last year of all the people that have been down there, I think I've enjoyed it twice.

• 12:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, you don't typically enjoy it. You've always said that.

• 12:51Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, when I enjoy it, I like really enjoy it. Like this one guy in particular this year, just really hit it out of the park like three minutes.

• 12:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  He ate all the pussy.

• 12:59Rayna Greenberg?

  He ate all my pussy.

• 13:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I gotta go tell that guy. Gotta go tell that guy in Venice Boulevard. We found him. We found the culprit.

• 13:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sorry, this guy Raina Met on Field has been eating all the pussy.

• 13:13Rayna Greenberg?

  And I had one other experience with this guy where we were like pretty drunk and I don't think he could really keep it up. But we did a lot of oral stuff for four hours. And that was fun. He ate a lot of pussy for like four hours.

• 13:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, he was full. What are we talking? He was hungry going in.

• 13:26Rayna Greenberg?

  It was a long night.

• 13:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know what I say, skinny guys, they'll eat your pussy really well because they're hungry.

• 13:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't think I've fucked any skinny guys this year.

• 13:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so guys, really quick, today we have Liz Moody and we love her. We adore her. The conversation is so wonderful and we went on her podcast as well, which will be out this week, The Liz Moody Podcast. She drops her episodes on Wednesday, so a little double header for you guys.

• 13:50Rayna Greenberg?

  We had so much fun doing her show, the questions she asked us. She's just great. We really love her. And so many people message us, "Oh, my God, we love her. We can't wait for this collab."

• 13:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  She's just like brilliant and grounded and has great advice and she's really insightful. And so even before we started recording this interview that you guys will hear today, we were just like talking to her for an hour, really couldn't stop, just yapping away. So there is that. And we're gonna get into it, but we just have one email that we got that caught our eye. The subject line really intrigued me. It was all caps, "This can't be happening." And the email lived up to the subject line.

• 14:27Rayna Greenberg?

  She kept it short. She got right to the point.

• 14:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  The fact that these things happen and you guys are like, "I have to email girls kind of email."

• 14:33Rayna Greenberg?

  What an honor.

• 14:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  What an honor. I can't believe this is our job. Okay, so, "Hi ladies, I'm ready in. My sister, who has been married for over a decade, was just cheated on by her husband with their ex-couples therapist." Let that sink in. "She was out of town and he had her over to their house, cooked her a nice steak dinner, and then had a steamy makeout on the back porch, watching the sunset. She found out by listening to her gut that something was off and went through his phone, snap-tapped between them for over a month."

• 15:04Rayna Greenberg?

  This therapist is snap-chatting, snap-chatting her pussy.

• 15:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's eating all the pussy.

• 15:08Rayna Greenberg?

  And steak. He is blaming this all on her and the lack of intimacy in the marriage.

• 15:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, shocker. Oh, he's blaming her. It's her fault.

• 15:16Rayna Greenberg?

  There's more details. We want to hear your take on this. I mean, this is so brazen to cheat on your wife in your home with somebody that your wife probably sought out for help in your marriage. It makes me feel physically ill.

• 15:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel so disgusted. I mean, I really...

• 15:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just wanna send my condolences to her sister. This is so awful. I can't imagine how this would feel. I guess you have to tell yourself, like, now, I assume it's like, over, over. Like, someone could do this to you. My initial response is like, fuck that guy, he's a terrible person. But she's been married to him for 10 years. And that's probably not the case, and certainly not what she has experienced. If she's stayed married to him for a decade. I don't know if they have children. I really hope not. Because I assume a breakup is like, in the future. If it hasn't happened already. But this is just such a violation. It's such a violation of trust. This is someone, again, like you're saying, like, statistically, the woman would seek out. So she might have found this couple's therapist, opened up, shared about their relationship. And this is the person that betrays her?

• 16:20Rayna Greenberg?

  My hope would be that there was already problems in the marriage. So she already saw insight to like, maybe this is not the kind of person I want to be with already.

• 16:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Rayna Greenberg?

  And he gave her the biggest out. You will never forgive this. You will never come back from this. I'm sure it's so painful, but like, this is the kind of thing you'll look back on in a couple of years and be like, this saved me from a terrible person. He gave me the exact reason I needed to leave.

• 16:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 16:44Rayna Greenberg?

  It is so horrifying to do this in your home with somebody that your wife trusted. Yes, I don't know if they have children or not. To have this have been going on for over a month. And then to gaslight you that this is somehow your fault. He said that they had intimacy issues. That's probably why they were in therapy. And what this therapist was like, now I have the keys to the kingdom, I'm gonna take this guy?

• 17:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and I never want to primarily blame the other woman in this situation. Like, your husband is the one you're married to, his loyalty is to you. But fuck this therapist? And if it were me, I'm getting her ass fired. Disbarred.

• 17:22Rayna Greenberg?

  No, you report her.

• 17:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is so crazy. This is against what you- Sign up for, it's medical malpractice.

• 17:29Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it is. It is. I think it has to be illegal, right? I mean, there's governing boards for psychology and how you're allowed to engage with patients. And psychologists, they don't really tell you, like, do this thing because they could be legally liable. If you harm yourself or harm another person, I mean, there are governing bodies for this. I'm pretty sure it's looked down upon to fuck your patients.

• 17:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, but like, if they got divorced, if the sister and they got divorced and they reconnected somehow, I don't know the rules, that's fine with me. You met in an unconventional way and maybe you had a connection. Like, I think everybody should find people that they have that connection with and be happy.

• 18:08Rayna Greenberg?

  I think every man wants to fuck his therapist.

• 18:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  What?

• 18:11Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just, it's a woman that understands.

• 18:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my god.

• 18:14Rayna Greenberg?

  And listens to him and they can project, I mean, this is a very common thing that you project this idea onto this therapist of what it would be like to really be in a relationship with that person. Because they're this great listener and they're empathetic and they try to help you reframe your feelings. And this is very common for people to like fall for their therapist. And yeah, sure, if you break up with your partner, fine, date your therapist.

• 18:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but it's like, that's my issue is like, if we got this email and it was like, guys, can you believe this? My sister's ex-husband is now dating their ex-couples therapist. I'd be like, ah, that is gonna sting. But like, I can't be mad at it.

• 18:50Rayna Greenberg?

  No.

• 18:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, it's, you know, everyone's broken up, it's an ex-client. But this, I mean, you're part of this infidelity after you tried to coach this couple? And then I'd be wondering like, oh, my gosh, did she always have a crush on him? And was she even being?

• 19:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Inching me towards it.

• 19:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, was she, exactly, like, was she pushing us apart? Or was she trying to be authentic? I mean, this is just crazy on so many levels. It's so hurtful.

• 19:13Rayna Greenberg?

  The kindest, most charitable assumption I can give to this is that they went to couples therapy. The relationship was so broken that they had no intimacy left, no trust, no nothing, that a long time went by, the therapist had feelings for him. But you break up and then you date the therapist. I mean, I'm dying to know, and it doesn't say in the email, like, how long it had been since they'd been in therapy? Like, Probably not years. Like, I'm assuming she says ex-couples therapists are probably not current couples therapists.

• 19:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Rayna Greenberg?

  But sometime in the current landscape.

• 19:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I also think, like you mentioned, the home is so disgusting to me, no matter what the situation is. Like, again, we say it all the time, and we did an episode on it with Esther Perel, like cheating is not always black and white, and there are so much nuance, and everyone has a different story and different motivations, and you can certainly come back from it. We just talked about this with Shina recently. It's not this like, once a cheater, always a cheater. It's always just like, the terrible person that can't be trusted. But like, you do it in the home, you share with somebody, fuck you forever. You are a disgusting person. I think there is no excuse for it. You can go meet someone on neutral ground, you go to their house. Like, to bring them into your wife's home, potentially your children's

• 20:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  home, like, what? It's so gross to me.

• 20:33Rayna Greenberg?

  It's unnecessarily cruel.

• 20:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 20:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, I have all these memories here with somebody, and you've ruined them now.

• 20:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  You've ruined it, yeah.

• 20:39Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't see anything besides the fact that you planned a date with another person in our home.

• 20:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Rayna Greenberg?

  You cooked dinner with them, you probably had sex with them in our home.

• 20:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're sick fuck.

• 20:48Rayna Greenberg?

  What, I'm supposed to live here now?

• 20:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 20:49Rayna Greenberg?

  So I hope that your sister and him are getting divorced.

• 20:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, keep us posted. And again, like, thank you guys for sharing your stories with us, and fuck that therapist, and send us her details.

• 21:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hey, guys, not really, just gonna share any details, but here's a therapist that we don't recommend. If you want to leave a Yelp review.

• 21:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And we'll put a steak emoji.

• 21:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Steak emoji.

• 21:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  And a sunset, the steak and the sunset emoji.

• 21:20Rayna Greenberg?

  And then the Snapchat goes, and you'll know exactly who she is.

• 21:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Find us on Snapchat.

• 21:25Rayna Greenberg?

  We'll tag her.

• 21:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Well, again, we'll get into it with Liz, but just gonna talk about a few of our partners first.

• 21:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, as a card-carrying girl's girl, I have something to tell you. This summer is not only about being sexy, it's about having a better morning after. You heard that right, you might be waking up in your own bed or someone else's. They may or may not have navy blue sheets, none of my business, but it doesn't matter because Julie has you covered. The Julie Morning After Pill uses the same trusted gyno-recommended ingredients as Plan B to delay ovulation and prevent pregnancy when taken up to three days after unprotected sex. Here's the thing, if there's no egg, there's no fertilization, so if there's no fertilization, there is no pregnancy. It's called science, people. The earlier you use it, the better it works, and when you need it, Julie should be your Plan A because it's more affordable than the leading competitor. Think of the savings as another drink on Julie. And the best part is that it's so easy to use.

• 22:14Rayna Greenberg?

  All it takes is one pill and you're ready to get on with your life. The Morning After Pill cannot end an existing pregnancy and it won't affect future fertility whatsoever. So if you want to have kids down the line, that's cool too. Julie knows better than anyone that sex happens, but never means you're screwed. Like many sexually active women, I have taken the Morning After Pill before, and not only was it a breeze, but it was a real relief for me that I made the right choice for myself. That is my whole twenties. Girls, girls, girls, everywhere can find Julie at CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, Target, Amazon, and GoPuff across all 50 states. No age restrictions and no ID required, ever.

• 22:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  We really would be out here, it would be so tough to get this. I remember I had to buy one for a friend, I think I was home from college, she was still in high school, and I had to like go, it was like such a huge ordeal because I was 18, I don't even remember. It was different then.

• 23:02Rayna Greenberg?

  It was harder to get, the lines, oh my god, the lines on Saturdays and Sunday mornings at Duane Reade.

• 23:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  What, in New York?

• 23:09Rayna Greenberg?

  It was just me and every girl in New York City.

• 23:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god, I was like, not in Dover.

• 23:14Rayna Greenberg?

  They could not keep that shit in stock in the East Village in New York City.

• 23:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  If you were smart and you were working in finance back then, you were like, invest, invest in Plan B. Okay, I'm telling you guys about Hungry Root. I love this so much. This has been the busiest time in my life, I can say with certainty. And so Hungry Root, I really love this because I get my groceries delivered, meal kits delivered, and I can personalize it. And it's really going to take the stress out of mealtime, especially this can be great if you are a parent, you're going back to school with the kids, and you really need to plan for them. I don't know what that's like, but I'm sure it's really more stressful than what I got going on. And so, we love the personalization. If you're gluten-free, dairy-free, high-protein, focused on gut health, you can take their quiz, and the Smart Cart technology is going to build a weekly menu that fits your needs. It's like having a personal meal planner, amazing value. And we really love

• 24:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  the quality as well. The proteins are incredible, the veggies, and of course, the snacks, too. It's not all just meals. You can get your hummus, and your popcorn, and your cookies. And again,

• 24:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, there's so much.

• 24:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, your coffee creamer, whatever you need. But they have really great meals. There's a lemon pepper chicken and cilantro lime rice that I love. They do burgers. My fiance loves to grill burgers on the grill. Pastas, of course, veggie niçwa-inspired rice bowl, roasted salmon. We're just obsessed. They use quality ingredients, like hormone and antibiotic, free meat and seafood, organic produce, non-GMO choices. You can feel good about what you're eating. So, we are such fans of it, and I feel like it has been saving my life and letting me have less stress as of late. So you guys can take advantage of this exclusive offer. For a limited time, get 40% off your first box, plus a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com/gge

• 24:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  and use code GGE. That's hungryroot.com/gge, code GGE, to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com/gge, code GGE.

• 25:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, and Rocket Money. A lot of people aren't aware of how much they spend each month. So, on subscriptions, how much you spend on takeout and delivery, and it's definitely more than I think, or I'm willing to admit to myself. So, I really recommend Rocket Money. It is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. This app is so easy to use. The interface is great. It will find and help cancel the subscriptions that you don't even know you're paying for. And I cannot even tell you how much stuff I subscribe to for like 30 days to get a discount and never, ever remember. And I'll check my Chase account, and I'll be like, oh my God, I've paid for this thing for six months. Like, I just did not need to.

• 25:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  I hate that feeling.

• 25:44Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it's, I'm just like, I just gave away free money, free money.

• 25:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm such a clown.

• 25:49Rayna Greenberg?

  So embarrassing. They got me. I got got. Okay. So Rocket Money is going to help you not get got. And it will lay out your whole financial picture. It'll include the bills that are due and due dates, help you sort of digest all that information, analyze your accounts for you, and they can even help negotiate lower bills. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions with savings up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com/gge today. That's rocketmoney.com/gge. Rocketmoney.com/gge.

• 26:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's get into it.

• 26:26Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, guys, we are really excited to welcome our guest today. She is a bestselling author, podcast host, and a leading voice in the wellness space known for making science-backed health and happiness feel approachable. Her book, 100 Ways to Change Your Life, offers actionable tips for improving mental, physical, and emotional well-being, and quickly became a go-to resource for self-growth. She is also the host of the Liz Moody Podcast, where she interviews top experts on everything from relationships to longevity to anxiety. Please welcome to the show Liz Moody.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Yay, thank you so much for having me.

• 26:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  We have been talking for like an hour and a half.

• 26:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Two hours. I've had to start, restart the cameras. We have a lot of BTS footage that... I wonder if we released what we just did.

• 27:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 27:07Rayna Greenberg?

  If we would all get canceled, probably.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  I think we don't need to find that out.

• 27:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, you told us a crazy story. We're not going to reveal it, but someone, we read their email on the podcast, it's your friend, and you told us the outcome, and it was shocking. And, you know, we'll just, that one will stay in the vault, but...

• 27:21Speaker 02

  But hi to her, because she's definitely listening right now. Can you guys say hi?

• 27:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi.

• 27:25Rayna Greenberg?

  What's her name?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  It's Jenny.

• 27:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Jenny, we hope you're thriving, and we feel like you are.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yay.

• 27:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, well, Liz, it's been such a pleasure talking to you, and your content's so amazing. And you touch on so many buckets on like, physical and mental well-being, and how to be great in like, career, friendships, relationships. But like, can you give us like, the boilerplate background on like, what you do, who you are, how you got here?

• 27:45Speaker 02

  So I've been a journalist for over 20 years now. I started when I was 16 years old. I had a national newspaper column for six years.

• 27:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my gosh, I love that.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  And it's kind of just like evolved since then. So I had my own mental health crisis, and that shifted. shifted my focus for my journalism into like how we can all feel our absolute best every single day so we can make the most out of our one wild and precious life and now I have a podcast and I write books and I'm just out there looking for tools that people can use to feel their best every single day.

• 28:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Your story is interesting. I mean, you suffered from extreme anxiety and agoraphobia and couldn't leave the house and it's such a testament to what you do today that you wrote this book on like very little actionable steps to make yourself happy and I mean you turned it around. I mean, what you were living with was it feels insurmountable in the middle of it, I'm sure.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I really like talking about it because when I was in that place, for people's reference, I was in a place where I could not get out of bed without having panic attacks and that was for over six months of my life. So there was a very long period where I just was like, this is it, I'm gonna live the rest of my life in bed. And during that time, I would look for stories of people who had extreme anxiety or extreme depression and were able to get to the other side. I'd watch celebrities on talk shows who I knew had had really extreme anxiety and be like, oh, if Amanda Seyfried can go do the Tonight Show, like, there's hope for me, too. So I like to think even just by sitting here and being able to have this conversation with you, I can like impart that little message of hope for other people.

• 29:07Rayna Greenberg?

  What age were you?

• 29:08Speaker 02

  I was in my late twenties.

• 29:10Rayna Greenberg?

  And then, do you know what triggered it?

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I was living in New York and then my husband got into a graduate program in England and so we moved to London and I was like, this is great, I'm gonna thrive. I had traveled the world by myself at that point. I'd lived in Berlin, I'd lived all of Buenos Aires. I was like, this is gonna be amazing. I'm gonna be like, London Liz, it's gonna be fabulous.

• 29:26Rayna Greenberg?

  You were married to each other at that point?

• 29:28Speaker 02

  No, we were domestic partners because I needed a visa and I didn't want him to propose for a visa. I wanted him to propose because like, so that was the point where I was still just like getting drunk and being like, why don't you wanna marry me? Which is super effective.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  But if there's looking for tips. And so we moved to England and I was gonna write a book, so I didn't have like a job that got me out into community. So my community just very quickly shrank from all these people that I was hanging out with in New York to basically nobody. London is wonderful, but it's a very spread out city and it's a hard city to make friends because every single person lives within two hours of every person they've ever known in their entire life because it's like a small island. And I didn't also put myself out there and like take the efforts and the steps that I needed to make friends. So I think that that isolation, it really shows, there's so much research that shows that the quality and strength of our relationships is the number one predictor of our health and our happiness in our lives. And I was living proof of that because when that dissolved, my life fell apart.

• 30:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 30:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did you move back after that?

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did you like heal in London or did you move?

• 30:34Speaker 02

  I started to heal in London. So I really also like to talk about how, how long that process was.

• 30:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can we talk about that? Like what's, what does day one look like?

• 30:42Speaker 02

  So day one was me laying with my cat in bed and I started emailing. I'd been a journalist for years at that point. And so the only tool that I had in my arsenal was like, how do we figure out what experts say about how to heal from this? So I started emailing people that I had no business emailing, like heads of neuroscience at Ivy League universities and like RDs and doctors who are super famous. And most of them did not reply, but a few of them did. One of my life mottos is never be the one to say no to yourself. Other people might say no to you, but you don't want to be the person to say no to yourself. It's gotten me my husband. It's gotten me my book deal. It's gotten me my healing journey from my anxiety. So the few people that did reply would tell me like, here's what's going on in your brain. Here's what's going on in your body with this anxiety. Here's what's causing the panic attack.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Here are things that research has helped with panic attacks. So I started to piece together this little bit of a plan with like teeny tiny steps that I could take. So the first thing that I did, I, I kind of compiled that research. I got that stuff back in and I'm literally like, picture me laying sideways in bed with like my computer propped up on my pillow. And that's where I was like conducting this. And I was like, I'm going to live my rest of my life in bed and that's fine. I just want to feel a little bit better because at that point I felt that if I continued to feel the level of discomfort that I felt, life was no longer worth living. Like I was, I was that far down. So I was just looking for these little ways to feel better. And one of the first things that somebody sent back to me was a breath work exercise. And so I started doing that laying in bed. That started making me feel better for just these like little peaky moments in time.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  I started working on nutrition elements because I had nutrient deficiencies all over the place. Started working on a movement practice, which I did in my room in London. And then when I came back to New York, I had, I built in structure. I built in community and I kind of put those final pieces in place.

• 32:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  So you focused on physical, which I, I always say it's like sleeping, take a walk, small steps.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, really small steps. Sleeping a lot. I sleep like 20 hours a day. So I had that good. Which is bad in its own way.

• 32:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Depression, yeah. I'm just curious how this went in your relationship. You know, and obviously you said this was like a six month period. It didn't happen all at once. I assume it was kind of like slowly over time. And what did that do to the relationship? Could he help you? Like, I'm honestly just asking out of curiosity.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the first time I realized something was like really wrong was when he actually invited me out to a pub to watch a rugby game with his friends. And I couldn't go and I didn't realize why I couldn't go. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, this is like really bad. And so that was an interesting element, but I think I hid a lot of it from him. You know, when animals are sick and they're kind of like self protective and they don't want to show that they're sick. I was sort of like that too, where I didn't want him to see me in a certain way. And so I really hid a lot of how bad I was feeling from him and didn't let him help me because I didn't want him to see how vulnerable that I was. But I would say that post facto, it's brought us so much closer together. Like, we have been able to have deep, vulnerable, intimate conversations.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  He's been able to open up to me about anxieties and hard things in his life. So I think post facto, it's really been helpful. But during the moment, I think he would have been there for me and he was there for me in so many ways. But I just didn't let him know how bad it was.

• 33:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  You feel like you compartmentalized throughout the day? He would get home and it was sort of time to like...

• 33:56Speaker 02

  He was really busy. He was in a program where he like up early, home late type of thing.

• 34:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is part of why I was so isolated.

• 34:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  He hadn't gotten out of bed the whole time he's at work.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was like, hey. So he'd get home and I'd be like in bed and he was like, okay, well, she's going to sleep.

• 34:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, right. Little did he know, the last 10 hours.

• 34:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I do think it's just, we talk about asking for help and I think it is important to let people know how you're feeling. And I was like very depressed in the fall and I couldn't stop crying. And I just, even like when I would stop crying, I just, I felt no joy in anything I was doing. And the best thing I did for myself was talk to people about it and just tell my friends and let them know where I was. And like to hide that from people felt, it's a natural thing to do because you're like, I don't want to bother people. But also people noticed in my life. I mean, I remember Ashley saying to me, like, you're just, you're really not yourself. I'm like really worried about you.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  And the more I talk to people and let them in, the better it got.

• 34:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  I did this last night. I just started getting in this spiral about something happening in my life. I don't need to get into it. And I started really having like, bad, negative thoughts and like, my fiance was cleaning up the kitchen and I just like, usually kind of chat with him. He's like, doing stuff and I just like, was on my phone scrolling, thinking bad things. And like, I was like, sorry, I've been like spiraling. And I just like, told him everything I've been feeling. And we are very close, obviously, but it, I'm glad I could let him in on like, the fears and anxieties I'm having surrounding this certain thing in my life. And just speaking him about it and him comforting me and, you know, saying the right things and just being there.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I could have not, I could have held it in. I want him to obviously think I have my shit together and...

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. No, I have, okay, so I have three thoughts on this. One is that we tend to, we think we're being vulnerable with our friends, but often we are actually hiding these like, really deep things, the things that we actually have shame about. We're not showing those to our friends because we want the people that we think are great to think that we're great. And so we're trying to present this version of ourselves. And by and large, research shows that the more vulnerable we are with our friends, the more they will like us. So I do think that if we can push ourselves, not to say almost, I feel like we've normalized talking about almost like our surface level trauma. And then we think we're being vulnerable because we're like, oh, I'm talking about these things that are actually quite comfortable for me to open up about. But if you go a step level deeper and you actually talk about, I feel real shame about this. It feels so much better for you.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  And it's gonna feel so good for your friend, for your partner, et cetera, et cetera. Thing two is that the mere act of disclosure is incredibly helpful for our brains. It alleviates so much stress. And that's just talking about something. It's journaling. It's a huge part of why therapy works. It's not only the expertise of the incredible therapist, but just creating a space where you can take the things out of your brain. The act of turning them into words creates sense for your brain. And so then it makes them less amorphous and it makes it easier for your brain to like categorize and deal with it. That's the science behind journaling, the science behind just talking about anything. And then the third thing is, so the point of where I was, where, when you're really depressed, when you're really anxious, it can actually be hard to tell people how to show up for you.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  So I like to do it preemptively now. I like to tell people, hey, when I'm feeling really down, I'm probably gonna stop answering texts. I'm probably gonna remove myself and draw into myself. Actually, this is what I need from you as my friend in these moments. And I... Prepare them with the tools ahead of time for what they will need to show up for me in the way that I need to be shown up for, because I know in those moments, I won't be able to articulate those things. And in fact, I'll just retreat. I'm avoidant when I'm depressed or anxious and I completely withdraw and then I feel lonely and then I feel worse.

• 37:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 37:31Rayna Greenberg?

  It is cyclical, you know, because of course, your notion is to like sleep more, don't go out more. I know the things that'll make me feel better and I cannot do them. And it really made me feel a lot more closest with the people around me. I mean, I look back at that time in my life and just how much people showed up for me. And I show up for other people and I will sit there and listen to other people for hours. And it was nice to have that reciprocated and.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  And we love that. Like if you reflect on how good it feels to show up for one of your friends when they truly need you, I think it's like, what a beautiful gift that we can give that to other people, yet we deny other people that gift because we think we're going to burden them or we want them to see us a certain way.

• 38:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Yeah. I maybe people feel like they don't want to dump all over somebody. I mean, I guess there's certainly a line.

• 38:10Rayna Greenberg?

  There's a line.

• 38:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 38:11Rayna Greenberg?

  You've been crying to me every day for three years. This is a lot.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Well, especially if like people, when they come to you with the same problem over and over and over, and then they make no change. And you're like, well, I'm not here for this.

• 38:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, there's a line at which you have to tell people. I mean, I, the things I was dealing with were problems I'd been having for years with the same people I've been having those problems with. And so at some point, you do have to say it to somebody. I think you should seek some therapy.

• 38:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you remember that scene in Sex and the City where her friends are like, we can't do this anymore. Like we're not, this is, we're bored by this situation.

• 38:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, I said that to Reina. I was like, you are not yourself and like you are in like a low right now. It's like a slump, but like I care about you and I love you and you know, could be worth talking to somebody. But whatever it is, I'm like, I know you're just feeling this right now, but there will become a point where it's been too long. You'll decide that. I'm not telling you what that point is.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like this can't go on like this forever. And it didn't.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that like finding also like you're like when you feel these ways, you don't want to take a walk, you don't want to get outside, you don't want to do the things that are good for you. I think sometimes as a friend, if your friend is kind of talking about the same thing over and over, instead of trying to hash through the same problem, how can you get them to do the things that will make them feel better, that then they'll be in the state of mind where they can make the decisions that benefit their lives. So sometimes they'll be like, we don't need to like talk about this problem anymore, but like, let's go for a hike. Yeah, like something like that.

• 39:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think that's great. And that's real shit that real friends do. It was like, show up face to face, or at least offer to, instead of just like texting like, hey, hope you're doing okay.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  My father-in-law just died, and it was so interesting, because my mother-in-law said a number of times, that like, the friends who just showed up without asking, she said that specifically, like, they showed up without asking, made her feel so loved. And I think that's such an interesting, yeah, an interesting thing, just like be there.

• 39:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we're sorry about your father-in-law. We already knew that.

• 40:00Rayna Greenberg?

  We already, we knew that. We did say we're sorry before, just so you guys know.

• 40:05Rayna Greenberg?

  So, you know, you get to this point where you've, you're, you're on this path to healing, and I guess you decide that you want to pass that information on to other people. And you've interviewed so many people about ways to be like mentally stronger and talk to your partners. I mean, maybe we start, what do you want to start with?

• 40:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, let's start with psychological richness. What it is, what it means, do you have it? Do we have it? How to get it?

• 40:27Speaker 02

  So it's not something you have, but it's something, it's not gonna be that anybody has, not just you. We all don't have it, but it's something that we should aspire to in our lives. And I think that what I like about this concept is psychological richness is the idea that a well-lived life, and there's a lot of research on this, includes things that we perceive as more of struggles. So these are hardships, they're deviations, they're things like breakups, they're things like layoffs. And in these moments, they add this texture, this psychological richness to our lives, that when we look back at our lives, we perceive them as being more satisfying, more rich, and more well-lived. And I love this, because in the moments where I'm like crying, and I'm like, everything sucks, and

• 41:08Speaker 02

  I hate this, I can literally step back for a second and be like, I'm adding psychological richness to my life. This is not a deviation from the journey. This is actually a key. Poor part of the journey.

• 41:21Rayna Greenberg?

  It's really interesting. So I've been writing a lot and I've been writing about two things very specifically a lot and they are the two of the hardest moments of my life. And I look back on those things and they're the things I feel so passionate about because that's where the growth came from and that's where all the knowledge came from. And that's where all the best moments in my life, best friendships like grew out of. And it pours out of me when I'm writing about it because I'm like, look how much good came from this.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  It's because you're making sense because you're using words. So it's helping your brain process.

• 41:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Back to our earlier.

• 41:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  But we also admire this in other people and we, you know, not that we're like, ah, it's such a turn on that he's had that struggle, but like we do kind of think like you see strength of character and the way people have dealt with things. And Raina and I talked about this one guy we know and we just like, he just doesn't have any struggle. His life has been such a breeze. And it almost makes you less equipped to deal with stuff.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Oh, I wouldn't want to date somebody who had not had, I would be very nervous to do so.

• 42:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  We've said that, like someone that's really never gone through much, wasn't even bullied in school, you know, just like life has been a breeze.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I think we all need to go through shit. And I, I, yes, the breakup stuff, I mean, once you get past that one terrible feel like you're going to die breakup, you really don't have to do it again.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think, you know, and all of those things. So we love the discussion.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And what I like about like, it's, I think a lot of us are good at the looking back and being like, oh, okay. Like I experienced, you know, growth from that post-traumatic growth or anything like that. But I like just the word psychological richness and knowing it's something, there's something about the phraseology of it that's really helpful for me in the moment to be like, research shows this is good for me. You know what I mean? So it, it doesn't lessen the pain because it, it reminds me that the pain is important.

• 43:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you look back at your own experience, you've been six months in bed, being depressed, not wanting to leave the house and like, look what's grown from it. If you hadn't had that, why would you ever have reached out to all these experts and asked them for their advice? Like this grew from that.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Sometimes I think about when I go and do events in person and people come up to me and tell me about like their lives changed in this way because they learned something from my work. And I'm like, that is the ripple effect. If I hadn't been in bed during that time, like this person wouldn't have had this information to help them. And it just, it makes me cry. Like I just think it's bananas.

• 43:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  You said something earlier, was it, I don't know if it was that term or not about the way that you live your life and you're deciding whether or not to have kids. Is this, is that what you said?

• 43:42Speaker 02

  I said experientially rich.

• 43:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can we just talk, can you just say that same thing you said earlier?

• 43:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Like the way you live your life.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think my number one goal is to live an experientially rich life. And we were talking about how I've explored a lot on my podcast, the decision of whether or not I want to have kids. I have a whole series called The Pros and Cons of Having Kids, where we have therapists on, we have real stories of people who regret having children, people who regret not having children, people who are child free by choice, people who chose to have children and absolutely love all of the range of experiences. And I, I came down on having one kid because I'm interested in the experience of having a child as part of my experientially rich life. I think there's a lot of ways to live an experientially rich life, but it's nice for me to have that benchmark. So when I'm making life choices with that intentionality behind it, I know what I'm going in the direction of.

• 44:31Rayna Greenberg?

  What is another point in your life you've thought in that way, aside from kids? Is this as little as travel and as big as?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Marriage and kids and career?

• 44:39Speaker 02

  I think it's, I mean, it's, it's as little as like, I'm laying on the couch scrolling and then I'll ask myself, is this part of an experientially rich life?

• 44:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you, Liz. I'm gonna use that.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  It's as little as like, if I get an opportunity, I'll ask myself, is this opportunity adding to my experientially rich life? If I'm faced with a situation that's a little bit uncomfortable, sometimes I'm like, is this discomfort part of my experientially rich life? Because experiences are not always positive. Experiences are the range of emotions. It also helps me in those harder moments. I'm like, I think that to get the full 360 of an experientially rich life, we need to experience all of the emotions, not just like, yay, happy every single day. So it helps me in those moments too. It's something I think about almost every single day because it helps me make almost all of my decisions.

• 45:22Rayna Greenberg?

  A lot of your content is about what we think is gonna make us happy, what actually makes us happy, what we think is gonna end us that actually is a great thing for us. And I love thinking about all those things and, you know, what is this experience bringing to my life? What does lying on the couch bring to my life? What is this trip gonna bring to my life? Who am I doing those things with? How, how am I doing them? I, I think it's really important. And we could talk a little bit about like, what we think is gonna make us happy versus not. And so basically, the arrival fallacy is something that I've listened to you talk about on the podcast and in your clips. Well, I'll let you talk about it.

• 45:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Take it away, Liz.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  So the arrival fallacy is the idea that when we get something, we will suddenly be happy. So people will do this with when I get engaged, I'll be happy. When I get married, I'll be happy. When I get this job, I'll be happy. When I publish this book, I'll be happy. When I buy this house, I'll be happy. When I lose this weight, I'll be happy. And whenever we put this sort of benchmark on my happiness is contingent on this thing, research shows that we will not be happier when we get that thing. And in fact, often we are less happy because we have found out that that thing didn't make us as happy as we wanted. And that was always our light at the end of the tunnel and our thing in the distance that we thought would make us happier. So there's something called the Olympic gold medal syndrome. And that's all these Olympians who've worked their entire lives towards this goal of getting a gold medal. They get a gold medal and then they often go into these periods of deep depression because

• 46:38Speaker 02

  they think that that gold medal is going to make it all feel worth it. All the sacrifices that they've made, all the hardship they've endured, all this work that they've put in, and it doesn't make them feel the way that they want to feel. And they're like, well, what do I do now? It happens with the Oscars as well, big awards. It happens when people sell companies. There was the founder of Loom recently sold his company for millions and millions of dollars. And he did a Substack post about how he was going through a deep depression and he didn't have direction for his life anymore. So the antidote to this is to when we feel, oh, this thing is going to be the thing that's going to make me happy, ask ourselves instead, how can I enjoy the journey of this? It's almost trite, the amount of times we say it, like, life is a journey. That is what it's about. But it really is, the research shows that humans are wired for progress, not arrival.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  What makes us feel good is moving in a direction, not arriving at a place. And reminding yourself that right now, when you're in the relationship, but you're not like on the wedding day, that's what life is about. Right now, when you're hanging out with your friends, like that is what life is about. Right now, when you're writing the book versus the day the book comes out, like if you can enjoy the act of writing the book versus the book coming out, the New York Times bestseller list, all of that, that's what's going to feel good. If you're the Olympian, if you can enjoy the tumbling sessions and getting to travel with your teammates, all of that, that is what life is about.

• 47:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I love it. I think you see so many depictions of this. I mean, I was watching the Aaron Rodgers documentary and he talked about he won the Super Bowl and it kicked him into a depression because he was like, what next? And I, I feel like it's really important to like celebrate your wins and you know, pull into port and sit there and enjoy it, but enjoy getting there. Cause yeah, the goalpost is always moving. It should be moving. And if you're somebody that really holds themselves to a high standard, like Ashley and I, you know, we want to be the best podcast. We want to write a book. We want to do all these things, but once we get there, like what's next? And it's important to remind yourself that like, getting there is something you should enjoy.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Well, and I think that because we want to tell ourselves like this next thing, like there is the part of our brain that is motivated by these destinations. So it's this constant act of pulling yourself back and reminding yourself like, no, it's right now. No, it's right now. No, it's right now. You're overcoming this bias in your brain of wanting to put the weight on this distant future success.

• 48:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I've known in my life, quite a few people that have had very quick marriages, 18 months or less. And people I went to high school with, college, I mean, people that were together for a long time, that got married, like not people, not quickies, people that were together for seven, eight years, got married, were divorced in 18 months. And to me, that is like you're driving towards this goal. And then you get there and it's like, well, what, what next? And I'm not picking on marriage. I think there's lots of things like this, like winning the Superbowl. But you know, you have to know that there's like something after that and be able to enjoy things after that. Like just, just the goal.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  I know, cause you want to enjoy that big thing. I guess the self-talk, like you said, is almost preparing yourself for the thing. And it's enjoy the journey now. It's like what you're saying. Cause if these things happen, you want to enjoy them in the moment and not be like, what next? What next? Yes. I think that's one part of it. I have two also, like very actionable, tangible things people can do. One, I love this. I did this episode about like happiness hacks that actually work. And one of my absolute favorite ones, and one of the ones I've heard the most success with, with other people, is to ask yourself, what's good here all the time? So that wires your brain to notice the good things in your environment, in your life right now. So if you walk into this room, you'd be like, what's good here? You'd be like, oh, I love these like pink velvety curtains. I love the energy that Raina and Ashley have. I love this really cute dog. And you're just like wiring your brain to

• 50:02Speaker 02

  notice all of the good things in that moment. So you can do that in any sort of, you're planning your wedding, what's good here? What's good in this moment, planning the wedding? You're eating a meal. What's good here? What's good in this moment? So I think that that can be really helpful for doing that. And then I had a second thing. I don't know. I lost it.

• 50:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I think it's just also removing this idea that like this, this thing is going to make me happy. If I get married, I'll be happy.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Oh, this is the second thing. I was gonna say.

• 50:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 50:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I know it's a trigger.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  It's to diversify your personality. I think that one of the reasons that we get so caught up in these single things is because we identify as that thing. I am the fiance and this wedding is like my big moment. I am the writer. I'm identified with this thing. I'm the Olympian. I'm my job in this way. And the more facets we can bring into our personality, the less reliant our personality is on any single thing. So adding in like hobbies and being a great friend and I'm taking singing lessons now. So I get to add that into my identity and I think these little tiny, I'm a musical lover. That's part of my identity, which kind of goes with singing lessons, except for I'm never gonna be in a musical because I still can't really sing. But like, these are all little parts of my identity and it makes it easier

• 51:13Speaker 02

  to not get so hung up on one thing going a certain way.

• 51:17Rayna Greenberg?

  I am the wife. I love that. I think that's.

• 51:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that too. And I just, oh God, you're so right about enjoy the journey. I guess I've been practicing with this without really realizing it when I'm like, it's not like the tour. It's such a grind and I have, I'm not just working towards this goal. It's like, actually, I really enjoy it. And it's like a really great part of it. I guess you can do that with, with anything. Like, you're right. I feel like there's probably athletes that are like, it's just all hard work. It's like all work, no play until you get the gold medal. And that is not enjoying the journey. That is being like, it's all for one goal. That's all that matters. And it's not appreciating the progress.

• 51:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you hear so many people say, I thought X thing was gonna make me happy. I got it and I'm not happy.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I know. And isn't it like until it happens to you, you don't really believe it. You're like, well, that's silly. If I got an Oscar, I'd be fucking happy. Yeah. But like then it happens to you and you're like, oh shoot. Like, I don't know anybody. I am actually thinking about all these incredibly successful people I know and they've all achieved so many of their dreams. And I think they're so grateful for it. And there's been so many incredible experiences that they've had. And I would not say a single one of them would say that thing made them happy, including myself. Like, writing my books, like, I love them. I'm so proud of them. The act of writing the book changed me much more than the day that the book came out.

• 52:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Being the kind of person that people want to tune in and listen to every week, that makes me happy. And building a life that supports that makes me happy.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:36Rayna Greenberg?

  But like, no one achievement makes me happy.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and I think people who are high achievers and are ambitious and motivated like won't be able to help themselves by asking what's next, but I guess the answer is

• 52:51Speaker 02

  You can do both.

• 52:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hopefully you've had a diversified enough life and personality that there are so many other things that are making you happy other than that one thing.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  And just ask what's good here a few times along the way.

• 52:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, just gonna take a quick break and we will get back into it with Liz. I am telling you guys about Ollie Dog Food. Okay, so we've told you about Azul. Tomorrow, if you're listening on the Monday, is a big day for him. He's getting his teeth removed and so obviously he's truly like the love of my life and I want to always make sure he is staying happy and healthy and I love this food. Azul loves this food. So he wolfed it down. It is clean, fresh nutrition in five drool-worthy flavors even for the pickiest eaters. It is made in US kitchens with highest quality, human-grade ingredients. Ollie's food contains no fillers, no preservatives, just real food. And of course, this is gonna keep your dog happy and healthy, more energy, shinier coat, better poops, and more excitement at mealtime. So

• 53:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  again, five protein-packed recipes, fresh beef with sweet potatoes, fresh turkey with blueberries, and you're just gonna go on their site, fill out their 30-second quiz, and they'll create a customized meal plan based on your dog's weight, activity level, other health info, get your welcome kit. They're gonna send you your first box with two weeks' worth of meals, a free storage container, I love the storage container, and a guide of how to gradually switch them over to their new diet. You can customize your plan. They offer three meal plans to choose from. You can choose between the full fresh plan, a fresh topper plan, so that's gonna be food that you can put on top of your kibble, or a mixed plan. And they are just one of a kind. They are the only fresh dog food that comes with unlimited routine health screenings, so you can get your pup

• 54:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  on track to living their healthiest, happiest life. Just know that dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to Ollie.com/GGE. Tell them all about your dog and use code GGE to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O-L-L-I-E.com/GGE and enter code GGE to get 60% off your first box.

• 54:48Rayna Greenberg?

  And Skims, our favorite bras and underwear, it's what I'm wearing today, it's what I wear pretty much every day. It's the best quality, it's the most comfortable. I love the Fits Everybody bras, I sleep in them. There are so many colors to choose from and so many different sizes for everybody. But really, the underwear is my absolute fave too. So I have tons of different ones, the thongs, the cheeky underwear, the briefs, the boy shorts. I wear their boxers around all the time. The cheeky brief is really cute, it comes in tons of different colors. I like this like mob shade that they have and also the dip front thongs. And I actually just like wore their underwear, the briefs, for a photo shoot the other day and it's the perfect amount of like sexy and functional. I just love everything they do. I love the comfort of it all. I love the quality and

• 55:31Rayna Greenberg?

  the styles. I shop their pajamas, I wear them around the house all the time. So many other underwear brands are bulky, they're unattractive, they're low quality, and I never ever feel that with Skims. So you can check out tons of the different products, they have so much to offer. And shop our favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you and select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 55:55Rayna Greenberg?

  We can move on to dating, but I just want to like touch on your like energy audit and things that like drain you. And I think that that's, that's a good way to spend your time. Like if you're just like, how do I enjoy this journey? It's take some accountability for how you spend your day.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Well, and I also think that energy is like the thing that we are not talking enough about in terms of trying to feel good. So we're like, oh, I need to do all these habits. I need to like fix my gut health. I need to like do all these things in my relationship. And it's like, if you do not have energy, you're not going to be able to do any of those things. That is like the root cause thing. If we don't have it, we're not able to add in any of the other things that are going to make us feel good. And so I like to go way, way back and say like, how do you feel energy wise on any given day? And how can we get those energy levels up? So the energy audit is looking around at the parts of your life that give you energy and looking at the parts of your life that are sapping you energy. And what are the parts that are sapping energy that don't need to be there? And I think being really honest with yourself about that, that could be you always pushing yourself to send those last emails and stay late at work when you

• 56:51Speaker 02

  could set a harder boundary. And what do you actually need to do for your job because your job demands it? And what are you demanding of yourself for your job? I think is a really helpful question people can ask. It can also be the people that you surround yourself with who's Lifting your energy and who's draining your energy. And it can be the foods that you eat. It can be the exercises that you can do. I think self-talk can be incredibly draining. If you're talking shit about yourself in your head all day long, it's like, no wonder you feel exhausted all the time. So I think that that, looking at all these different facets and saying, do I have the energy that I want to do the things that I want? Before you're just trying to cram all these new things in and then feeling bad that you're not achieving them.

• 57:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  And hot take, but the scrolling and the comparing and the, all of that is just stop it. That's literally just, that's just a stop it. Stop doing it.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  Do you guys struggle with scrolling?

• 57:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And I will say, when my fiance moved in, it's changed my life completely in terms of I don't scroll at night. And in the, I sometimes have to get up and look at texts, but I used to scroll before bed. It was ruining my brain. It was ruining my sleep. I'm a different person, but I'm still way too much on my phone by day. And, you know, the state of the world is, it's like, I want to stay informed, but I struggle with that. And comparing, I mean, Brandon and I have always been pretty good. Like, we have achieved a lot. But, you know, no one is safe from, why don't I have that? Why did they get that? Why didn't we get that? No one, no one. So it's just like, I really, I practice this self-talk. And what do I have? And what am I so grateful and appreciative of?

• 58:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  And what I have accomplished? And, you know, I have to counteract it. Not every day, but, okay, you know.

• 58:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I think it happens to all of us. It's important to be honest that it happens to all of us. I've gotten really good at drawing boundaries with myself, but what I'm gonna do when I, when I can show up better. At the end of the day yesterday, and the end of the day, I use in quotes, it was 4:30. I got home and like, I had to work on your outline. And I was like, I just don't, I slept for five hours the night before. I don't have it in me. And I knew if I just put the phone down for a few hours, had a good dinner, went to sleep early, I could wake up at six o'clock in the morning and feel fresh and good. And Ashley and I had like, a great talk about your episode this morning. And I like, I just, I drew the boundary with myself. Get off the phone, go to sleep early. But I guess there's no other takeaway. No, I don't struggle with the phone, but I've had to draw the boundaries.

• 59:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, rain is way less than me.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  The phone is hard because people will say like, just stop it. We all know it's bad for us, but it is addictive and it's designed to be addictive. So I think that sometimes when we just say, stop it, and people are like, I'm trying, I'm trying so hard.

• 59:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally. I know it's not that easy. Clearly, I know it's not.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  And, and we all still do it. And so the most helpful takeaway, we have an entire episode about how to get off your phone and like strategies that actually work. But the most helpful takeaway I have is that you want to make the habits that you want to have as easy as possible. And you want to make the habits that you don't want to have as hard as possible. So most of us plug our phones in by our bed at night. That is making it as easy as possible to wake up in the morning and scroll on your phone. If you just put your phone in another room, you're making it a little bit harder. Any tiny, I think we tell ourselves, oh, that's not going to make a big difference. But any tiny step of friction is going to make that habit easier to have not stick. And we need to do as many of those friction steps to overcome the fact that these things are designed to be so incredibly addictive.

• 1:00:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, the limits, the where you put the app on your phone, if you have to scroll over a bunch.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  So I think just asking yourself like, how can I create that friction is really, really important.

• 1:00:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I love a little morning scroll, but I hold myself to like 20 minutes. And then I try to get up, pour my coffee, make my to-do list, do bring your

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  I like to get outside. That's my rule. So we do circ walks in my community. That's just like a walk outside for 10 minutes in the morning. I view it as like a multivitamin for your entire body because it impacts your hormones, it impacts your gut microbiome, it impacts your mental health, all these different things. So if I do that before I get on my phone, I feel like real proud of myself. But also, it really helps your dopamine to scroll at the end of the day, because if you scroll at the beginning of the day, if you do nothing else but move your scrolling later in the day, you'll find it less addictive and you'll need less dopamine hard hit activities throughout the day. So you'll like snack less, you'll be able to focus on your work more, you'll be able to read more, all of those things. If you can just move it later in the day, so you're not having this hard hit of dopamine first thing when you wake up and setting that as your baseline standard.

• 1:01:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. I have been taking NAD supplements and they have changed my life.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:01:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Wait, tell me, we, we just did a sub stack about NAD. I'm so curious.

• 1:01:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Really?

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I got these supplements from a Dr. Barrett, who he has his own line. I think I still have a code. It's Ash 20, if you guys want them. But I don't know. He just was like, you're over 40, you should take these. I was like, okay. And I have so much more energy. I feel so much stronger in workouts noticeably. Things that used to be more challenging are so easy workout wise. I have tons of energy. I don't have that 4pm slump. I've been sleeping better and I'm in like two months every day. Take like two capsules in the morning.

• 1:01:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't work out, so.

• 1:01:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Daily energy. I notice it obviously outside. The workout is where I notice it the most.

• 1:01:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think I would enjoy it if I don't work out?

• 1:01:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and it's just more energy, but I don't know. You have pretty good energy levels.

• 1:01:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but I get that 4:30 slump. I'm done with the day at 4:30.

• 1:01:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  What did you learn about it?

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  I was actually really impressed with the research. Like I went in kind of being like, is this a trend? Is this silly? But actually, the research seems pretty robust and it seems to like be quite helpful for people.

• 1:02:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, this, it can't be a placebo effect in terms of the fitness aspect of it where I'm like doing strength training that I'm like, that is so easy.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's interesting. I want to try.

• 1:02:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  And like endurance.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a good testament.

• 1:02:22Rayna Greenberg?

  So we want to talk about dating and relationships a little bit.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's talk about dating. I've been in a relationship for 27 million years.

• 1:02:27Rayna Greenberg?

  How long have you guys been together? You and Zach.

• 1:02:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  You couldn't figure it out early.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  We met in 2009.

• 1:02:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Seventeen years?

• 1:02:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Sixteen.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Fine.

• 1:02:37Rayna Greenberg?

  We'll give you seventeen.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  It depends on when you met. I think that is what math would say.

• 1:02:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Math, I was like, I'm pretty good at math. I don't know.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Sixteen years. That feels right.

• 1:02:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  And we've been, I think we're going to be married for 10 years soon.

• 1:02:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:02:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Congratulations, that's a.

• 1:02:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Are you gonna have a, are you gonna have a like a?

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  So I want to have a vow renewal, but I think it's the same year, again, you're seeing how bad I am with math at this, but I think it's the same year as both of our 40th birthdays. And then I'm like, I really want a destination 40th. I want him to have a destination 40th. And I want to vow, like, is that too much? But then I'm like, maybe we do like a weekend.

• 1:03:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  Where it's like a festival and it's like day one.

• 1:03:12Rayna Greenberg?

  You know I did this.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  You did for your 40th, right? Yeah.

• 1:03:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Throw a festival.

• 1:03:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, so can you tell us the dates, your anniversary and your two birthdays?

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So his January 20th is his birthday.

• 1:03:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  Our anniversary is May

• 1:03:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  29th.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Then my birthday is August 14th. I'm Leo, as you guys can like clearly tell.

• 1:03:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's spread out a lot.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  It is, but I think would like if we could gather in the summer, what I like is the idea of doing day one is Zach themed. So it's like adventure stuff.

• 1:03:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  You know, like.

• 1:03:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  You should definitely do this.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  We like, I don't know, go climb a tree or like whatever he would like to do.

• 1:03:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Whatever men do.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  And then day two is like Liz theme where we maybe do some sort of like, everybody has to have deep conversations and cry and eat cookie dough and then get a massage.

• 1:03:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love this.

• 1:03:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I want to come to that.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  And then the third day is like more of a vow renewal and it's like about us.

• 1:04:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  This, you have to do this.

• 1:04:04Rayna Greenberg?

  This is amazing.

• 1:04:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  I already thought about it.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  My solution to the, to the problem.

• 1:04:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Incredible. I can already see like the lineup for the festival. This sounds so fun.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  So wait, are you guys a fan of like, I'm sure people write into you all the time and they're like, the destination stuff is getting out of control, blah, blah, blah. Like, are you guys a fan of like, do it and if people want to come, they come and if they don't want to come, they don't come?

• 1:04:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I guess I don't have, I mean, I've thought about everything in the world, but like, I think you personally have to check in with yourself and say, if people can't come, I, I'm going to be okay with that. People can't afford it. They have children. They don't have the time for it. Just because I want to take a vacation doesn't mean somebody else wants to take that vacation.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  That exactly. Yeah. I think that it's fine. That's where I fall in it is like, it's fine to do it. It's not fine to be mad if other people don't want to join you.

• 1:04:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  And think about who are your friends? You know, I think it's crazy when people do a bunch of crazy destination shit in their twenties. People can't afford it. I guess they obviously have to be okay with a lot of people not being able to come unless all your friend group is, you know, rich people. But also what you're asking of people, how much you're asking in a certain amount of time. Like I did a 40th in Cabo. It was a smaller group, what 10 or 12. I just knew everybody really wanted to go. We were on the west coast now. A lot of people came from the west coast. Some people didn't. But I find it interesting when people choose destination, bachelorette and wedding.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  Okay. That's your line.

• 1:05:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  If that's what your friends want to do.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  And again, I also think it's like you have, as long as you are okay with people saying no, and as long as you like express that to your friends. And I think we also have to take agency too. Be like, I can't afford this right now, or I don't want to do this and be okay with saying no ourselves.

• 1:05:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I think you and I also for her 40th, and I removed a lot of the barriers for people. We both.

• 1:05:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Planned it end to end. So we were like, this is exactly what you're showing up for. I took him a house.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  That's what I want to do. I want to like pay as for as much of it as I can. Like pay plane fares for people who maybe would feel less comfortable with it. I just feel like that's like, it'd make me feel really good.

• 1:05:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. So we really like your clips about engaging with your partner and the type of content, like the way that you respond to each other and what you talk about. And one of the clips that we really loved was this bidding and how you connect with your partner. Well, there's a couple of things you talked about that I like, but let's talk a little bit about just like you're in a relationship, you know, day to day with like a serious partner and the way you engage with them. So you have this theory about bidding.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So basically there are moments that have outsized significance and importance in your relationship. And I think if we can pay attention to these moments, we can maybe be a little bit more lax on the rest of them. Like you don't need to be incredibly present, working on your relationship at every single moment. We're all tired. Nobody has time to do that. But if you can take these, these individual moments that make a real difference and really focus on them, our relationships can feel a lot better and bidding is one of those moments. This is from research from the Gottmans, who are sort of the leaders of couples therapy research. And they found that when couples turn towards their partner's bids, they're going to be in much happier, much more satisfied long-term relationships. And turning away from their partner's bids has outsized negative effects on relationships. So a bid is like, hey, look at this meme that I have on my phone.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  If you're just like, ignore them, that's turning away from your partner's bid. That is avoiding your partner's bid. You feel like, oh, it's just like a little moment. They were just trying to show me a meme, but that's actually going to have an outsized negative effect on the relationship. So you really want to look for these little moments where your partner is like, maybe it feels silly, but they're trying to bid for you. They're trying to reach out to you. And lean into those moments because that's going to make them feel seen. It's going to make them feel really connected to you.

• 1:07:21Rayna Greenberg?

  I agree with you. I don't condone cheating, but when people cheat, you often hear them say, I don't feel like my partner sees me. I don't feel like they listen to me. I don't think they're like checking in with me. And it's, you know, when you add up all those little moments of, I sent you this funny thing, or I'm trying to tell you this thing that happened at the grocery store. And you've ignored all of them. I think we really deeply want to be seen and heard by our partners.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so too. And our phones, again, because our phones are so addictive. We are often on our phones and we're like kind of in that scroll hole. And you have to, I think consciously tell yourself, it's going to feel better to like connect with this. And if you can find yourself in relationship moments where the phone is fully put away, I think having a few of those throughout your week is really, really important to create the space to have that connection.

• 1:08:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's this article, maybe it's from the Gottmans. It was a couple and like it was, the example they used was when you're out with your partner and you say like, "Look at that bird," or something. Do you know the bird?

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's from the Gottmans.

• 1:08:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  It is.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  That's the original example of bidding. So it's just like, if you're out with your partner and your partner is like, "Hey babe, like, look at that beautiful bird," and you either compliment the bird, look at the bird with them, you kind of are neutral about the bird, or you like, turn away from the bird. And that's the original example of like-

• 1:08:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like you literally don't care.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, we all know this and we know how it feels to be on both ends of it. And we know when we see it in other couples, and it hurts to have it done, and also to see it in other people, because it, what are the four horsemen of-

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  The four horsemen of the apocalypse. Yeah, there's defensiveness, contempt, criticism, and one I always forget. We all always forget one.

• 1:08:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  But this is just like, you're, all you're doing is like, seeing them, validating them, showing that you give a shit about the shit that they give a shit about.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and I think that then, then I'm like, okay, so why is this happening? And I think a lot of people are like, I think it's tracing it back to the why can be really helpful for solving these types of issues. So I do think the phone is a really big problem. I also think the energy conversation is a really big problem. If you're working so hard and so burnt out that at the end of every single day, when your partner's trying to bid, you're too exhausted to receive those bids, let's not try to address the bidding first. Let's try to address that level of exhaustion. So we're not getting to the place where we can't relationally interact in the first place. I think mental load is another thing where a lot of people feel like they're taking on so much of the mental load in their relationships, that when their partner's trying to like bid about something, they're like, "Well, I'm in my head making the grocery list. I'm figuring out when the kids are gonna

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  be picked up. I'm figuring out what our plans are for this weekend." They're like, "I don't want to respond to your bid because that mental load inequity feels like it's taking up so much brain space. So let's go backward to that route and try to address those inequities before we're trying to like, be like, "Yeah, that was a great shot, babe."

• 1:10:00Rayna Greenberg?

  But also like you could be annoyed with your partner and there's a world in which this is happening and it's too early in a relationship and you're not, you know, married and you don't have kids and this might not be your person. I don't know. Like, I think sometimes we know when it's time to call it quits because you're like, I'm just annoyed by this person.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  All the time.

• 1:10:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't care about this stuff that they care about.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  There's really interesting research that shows that when we are in love, we won't get the ick. So like,

• 1:10:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  if you get the ick, that's a sign that you are not in love.

• 1:10:28Rayna Greenberg?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:10:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I think that those things seem adorable.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, you literally are like, oh my God, they left their socks on the floor. They're so cute. They're like marking their space. It smells like them. But like if we're get the ick from it, it's like that is, our brain wants us to love the people that we love. Our brain is always compensating for those little nitpicky moments if we are in love. And I'm not saying like if your partner leaves their socks on the floor and it annoys you, that means you're not in love. Obviously, there's like a lot of complexities of living together for a very long time. But if you start to get the ick from a lot of things you didn't get the ick from before, I don't think that's like a funny, write it off thing. I think that's like a serious flag.

• 1:11:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  That you need to say like, what is going on in this relationship?

• 1:11:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Absolutely. And you think about in the beginning of a relationship, like when those things happen, you might get the ick. But like in a relationship, those things are quirky, they're cute. It's what makes them them. I think about that with my friends too. Like, you ever had like a falling out with a friend and all of a sudden it becomes like so easy to talk shit on the stuff that like made them unique? But you're like, it when we were friends.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  I love those things.

• 1:11:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I loved those things. Yes. But now that we're kind of on the outs a little bit, I roast you with my other friends.

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  I can't stand you.

• 1:11:33Rayna Greenberg?

  And that's kind of the same thing to me. And did you ever like, so my last relationship when I was ending, I remember thinking like, I don't care about anything you have to say. I don't care about your hobbies and your dumb little Marvel movies and how you spent your fucking day. I don't care. And like when you do get to the point where you're like,

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't want to listen to any of your bids. Anything you've said to me now that I've got home, I actually don't care.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  Right. That's my point. It was time to break up.

• 1:11:55Rayna Greenberg?

  It was time to break up.

• 1:11:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Rain and I, what we noticed a lot, I mean, in our own relationships and in other couples is how someone acts when their partner is telling a story. And

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  That is so interesting.

• 1:12:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I grew up where we would have dinner together as a family. My mom would tell stories about her day and I just, I mean, not that my dad was hanging on every word, but like he laughed and he was looking up from his meal and he was engaging. And I just feel like I remember that, that they just listened to each other and admire each other in that way. And we've watched couples, one couple we know that like to watch her tell the story and he's interjecting, that's not how it went. And he's just not validating her and he feels like he needs to cut her down. He just won't let her tell the story. He kind of has to shame her a little and-

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Versus the couples we all know who it's like, like babe, tell them about that thing that happened at work. And they're like prompting the story and then saying, oh my gosh, you didn't even, you left out the best part with your boss and like blah.

• 1:12:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my God. Well, Ashley and I, I feel like we tell stories like that. I like, I love tag teaming a story at dinner, like with her and like friends. Cause I just feel like it's so fun to go back and forth about, well, you've brought this thing. And like just like listen to each other.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  And like, it's the difference between like the energy is elevating, elevating, elevating, you're like stacking it on top of each other versus like cutting it down, cutting it down, cutting it down.

• 1:13:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  And even just paying attention. You know, I mean, there's times, I mean, Raina and I are at a group dinner. We've heard these stories a million times, you know, like Raina, Raina's been at dinner. She's like, I know how Ashley-

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  How Ashley got engaged.

• 1:13:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, she's like, I'm gonna scroll for a minute if you guys don't mind. No, but it's just like, if it's not that case, which again, but it's, are you even paying attention? Are you eye rolling? Like that's the contempt. And that's at its deepest level is that your partner is speaking in a group setting and you're, you literally seem annoyed with them.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  Well, and I also think like a core of storytelling is that it's often not about the story. It's about what the person's trying to say. So there's like the surface level and then there's the underneath level. And what your partner's trying to do in those moments is often shine. And if you're not excited to see your partner shine, like that's not great.

• 1:13:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. This leads us into conversations in general. We liked a clip that you posted about couples falling into the rut of when they're just talking logistics, which often, I mean, I give more grace to families and kids and you really gotta like plan more and discuss how to like, you know, keep the kids alive and thriving, but just in general.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  I think that we're always trying to like grow and evolve and change ourselves. And yet we don't often create the space for the people that we love the most to do that as well, or to recognize that they're doing that as well. Our partners are different people than when we met them. They're different people than they were six months ago. They're different people than they were a year ago. And we need to get to know those different people along the way. Otherwise, they're not going to feel that same level of connection with us. So I think it's about, one, consciously trying to up level your conversations, to talk about ideas and things. My husband and I do an articles club every Wednesday, so we'll each read an article and then we'll bring like the article to each other. We'll talk through it. We'll talk about what ideas it sparked. I'm really big on like, you need

• 1:15:03Speaker 02

  different inputs to have different outputs. I think we put a lot of conversational pressure on ourselves to just have great ideas to talk about all the time. It's like, no, like, listen to a podcast, read a book, read an article. That's going to give you the things. Ask ChatGPT for conversation starters. You know what I mean? Give yourself the tools to have those deeper conversations and then consciously check in with your partner. Maybe they didn't like this type of TV show a year ago. They're not that person anymore. They're a different person. Ask if they like that TV show. Ask if they like this type of experience. Ask if they like going to this type of restaurant. Let your partner grow and change and evolve in the same way that you want to. And that's going to create the basis for like a new, exciting, growing and evolving relationship.

• 1:15:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that. Do you remember talking to Esther Perel about how we all think we're more dynamic than our partners?

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  It's so true though, right? We're like, we're on this fucking journey and they're not.

• 1:15:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  So her example was that like when we come home from a bad day, it's because like we have a lot of stress in our life and we need more enrichness and we need more hobbies. Like this thing happened and when our partner comes home and has a bad day, our partner is just an asshole.

• 1:16:12Rayna Greenberg?

  We all think we're so-

• 1:16:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Esther's gonna hear this and she's like, that's not how I said it. That is how, that's exactly the example.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Like when we're driving shitty, it's because like we're stressed and we're burnt out. But when somebody else is driving shitty, they're just being like an asshole to us.

• 1:16:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's all coming back to me.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  We are the sons of our world.

• 1:16:26Rayna Greenberg?

  She applies it to cheating too, because it's like when other people cheat, they're a piece of shit. But when you cheat, you had a lot of reasons for it.

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:34Rayna Greenberg?

  So anyways, I think, I like this idea, just in general, zooming back out of like acknowledging that your partner is dynamic too, checking in with them. I like the idea of sharing articles.

• 1:16:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:16:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that like, when you're with somebody for a while, the conversation does just become kind of mundane sometimes. Versus like, when people are like, it didn't used to be like this. Like, how do I get that spark back?

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  New inputs.

• 1:16:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Share new stuff.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  New inputs. My husband and I love to listen to podcasts together.

• 1:16:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  And you like, listen together and then you'll pause and be like, what did you think of that? Especially with like sex relationship podcasts like this one, I think it can be really helpful to-

• 1:17:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  Bring up conversations that you might not feel comfortable otherwise having.

• 1:17:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're so right. I think a lot of couples fall into a rut of yes, of course, especially if you have kids and I, again, I get it, where it's just logistics or all you're doing is talking shit on other people, which, you know, I love to do, but it can't be, it's negative. And like watching TV. And that's like really all you got going on and talking about work. And the articles thing, I think is so important. And I, that really drew me to my fiancee early on was he was telling me things I didn't know about. Even if he just seen it on TikTok, he like had stuff to share and hobbies, of course, of his own, but stuff he knew that I didn't know.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Do you guys know about my novelty rule?

• 1:17:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  No.

• 1:17:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Share it.

• 1:17:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, a rule, a theory.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  So my novelty rule is this neuroscience idea, that when we have novel experiences, it slows down our brain's perception of time. So it makes us actually experience our lives as longer and more satisfying. So the way you do the novelty rule is you try to have one smaller novel experience every single week, and you do a larger novel experience every single month. So like during the week, it could be wearing a different type of outfit. It could be making dinner from a cookbook you wouldn't normally use or something like that. And then once a month, you go have like a little mini adventure. And this is going to rewire your brain. It's going to make you perceive- Time is going slower. It's going to make your life feel longer and richer. I love bringing this into relationships because we're going to perceive our time with our partners as more satisfying when we are having novel experiences together. So to your point of like, we're just kind of watching shows together every night.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  I think there's something really beautiful and comfortable about that. And it's a really important part of a relationship to have that space to like be your loose self. Yeah, get you to rot. Yeah.

• 1:18:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you bond that way too.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  And I think having novel experiences together, it's going to give you new stuff to talk about. It's going to give you those feelings of adrenaline and excitement that you're going to attribute to each other per how the entire Bachelor franchise works and tricks them into falling in love via these experiences that are essentially changing their brain chemistry.

• 1:19:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love it.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  And they're attributing it to each other. So it's something I really, I do with my partner. We try to do our novel adventure every month together and it's really helped our relationship.

• 1:19:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love a day trip. I love having other couples plan a day trip.

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  And you can just like look up fun stuff in your, I did the Paramount tour on Monday here in LA. And it was so fun and it was like random and you could just like look up random stuff in your city.

• 1:19:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  But cooking too. And like, and that's one of the things I love about my fiance too. He finds these recipes on the internet, on Tik Tok or whatever. If some, he follows a bunch of chefs and he wants to go get the stuff and make it. And like try, yeah. Together and that's something that he does. I'm sure I have my little things too. But I'm just like, those things that keep it fresh and exciting that we're talking about the meal and what could we have done differently? I don't know.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  Does he listen to the podcast?

• 1:19:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  I feel like you've given so many compliments to him, even in this episode. And I'm like, that must feel so good to like hear your partner review you this way.

• 1:19:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, no, I love him a lot. I'm not in the camp of like, he's such a, like, he's such a.

• 1:19:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I think it's really, it's a lost art sometimes to really appreciate your partner.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 1:20:03Rayna Greenberg?

  And I think some people get, not roasted for it, but I think that it's like not as cool sometimes to be like, this is the best and they're the best. But like, how many times do people say, I don't feel appreciated by my partner? And I don't feel like they're, they're vocally telling me I'm not appreciating them.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  We love it. We love it as people. I think the best foreplay is your partner hyping you up in front of other people. Like when you're all at a bar and your partner is like. Liz did this incredible thing, or I like am talking about, oh, my gosh, you should hear about this thing that happened to Zach. Like, that is so sexy to be able to like see yourself through your partner's eyes in that way. It's just, oh, I love it.

• 1:20:37Rayna Greenberg?

  We just want our partners to like, think we're the best.

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, as we should, as we should.

• 1:20:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was talking to my brother and he went out with me when I was home and just the two of us went out. We stayed out late and we had drinks and one of his friends said like, oh, Steph let you do that? And he was like, what? He was like, Steph encouraged it. Like she, I mean, I'm his sister, but even if I wasn't, even if I was just a friend, maybe not like a girlfriend, but you know, he was like, that was so interesting to me that he was like, you know, it's that old ball and chain. She won't, and then on the opposite side, it's like that dumb, my dumb dusty husband can't do anything right. He's so stupid. I mean, whatever the trope is on that side and like, people do these and they lean into them and it can be funny and it can be for jokes, but there can also be some truth in it. And I don't like it. And I don't want him speaking about me

• 1:21:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  like that. And so I'm not gonna do the same. And it was just an interesting conversation I had with my brother, where he was like, the way my, a lot of my friends talk about their wives is unrelatable and something I would never do.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Well, and I think we need, it's one of the reasons we need to be careful about who we surround ourselves with, because I think that we, we tend to take on the traits of the people around us. And if you're surrounded with people who are just wanting to shit talk their partner, I think that that can make us want to do that more. And I think that one of the easiest ways to change that situation is just to be around people who are like hyping up their partner more.

• 1:21:54Rayna Greenberg?

  I find it so fascinating, people that want to do that, because I'm like, you're not making your partner look bad. You are making you look bad.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  You look bad.

• 1:21:59Rayna Greenberg?

  It's crazy to me. And I, listen, I know it is really cool to be like my dusty husband, who fucking cares about him? Who cares how he looks and what he's doing? But I'm just like, I don't.

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  And also like take agency, like if it is bad, like I, I'm all about, again, to the friendship conversation we were having earlier, like, let's be vulnerable with our friends. Let's bring them problems. Let's like, talk about the things that we're having a hard time with, but do it in the context of like, how can we find solutions here that we're working on this? I love my husband. I want to make this better. If you're just sitting around and complaining without taking any agency, like, what are you doing?

• 1:22:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  So can we wrap up? I'm curious, in your relationship, this is probably a loaded question, but do you feel like this long-term relationship, marriage, there are like, one or two or three things that are, you found like, so important into keeping it healthy? Was there any big struggle you guys had that you pushed through? I mean, you can share as much as you want.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I was, you know, suicidal from anxiety.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  That's always a problem.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  No, we've had so many struggles. Like, I wanted him to propose for like years before he was ready to propose. And I would get drunk and cry about it, which is not the best communication technique. And he proposed like probably exactly when he would have proposed if I had never done any of that. But I think we've had a lot of struggles over the year. I think that one is allowing the other person to change and really making space for that. I think two is having sex regularly. Every single sex expert I've had on my podcast has been a fan of scheduling sex. We don't do that, but I do not wait to feel in the mood to have sex. I view sex as like an incredibly important part of feeling nourished and connected in a relationship.

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  If it's been a while, I'll do it even if I'm like not in the mood and I assume the mood will follow and it almost always does.

• 1:23:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that tip.

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  Something that we've been working on a lot, there's a parenting expert who came on my podcast, Dr. Becky Kennedy. Are you familiar with her work?

• 1:23:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but now I'm gonna make a note of that.

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  She's interesting because she's a parenting expert and I'm not a parent, but I watch all of her stuff and I think it's because I want to like re-parent myself. I'm like, oh, like I wish I had that when I was a kid. But she has this idea of most generous interpretation versus least generous interpretation and she calls it MGI versus LGI. And the most generous interpretation is just taking anything that somebody's saying or doing and you're saying, what is the most generous way that I can interpret this? If they didn't do the dishes when I asked them to do the dishes, what is the most generous way that I can interpret this? If they cut me off in a car, what's the most generous way that I can interpret this? And it's not always going to be true. You're kind of telling yourself a story in your head. But it puts you in a better headspace to approach the situation. And I think a lot of partnership over the years is really difficult.

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  And if you can approach each other with your most generous interpretation as much of the time as possible, it creates a softness of the connection and it creates the space to grow and evolve together.

• 1:24:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that. And what we see a lot is especially with relationships that are not healthy or could be Towards the end, or just obviously going through a rough patch is the least. And it's like, you think your partner's out to get you, you're not on the same team. And it's there, that's the other end of the spectrum. And I'm sure most days, a lot of us just kind of fall in the middle. But I like the, let's overcorrect a little bit to enhance the relationship.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  I also think choose wisely. And I think there's so many ways to live a good life. And I think one of the most magical things that's happened recently is we've moved away from the idea that you need to get married and live in a single family home and have two kids to live a great life. There's, I have girlfriends who are living.

• 1:25:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  In this economy?

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  I have girlfriends who are living with a bunch of their girlfriends and they're raising kids together and they're living an incredible life that way. I have girlfriends who are so happily single and they have no intention of ever having a long-term partner, but they have a lot of community in their lives in other different ways. I have so many friends who have essentially bucked the notion of like, this is what life has to be. And I love that we're embracing that because it means you don't have to settle for some shitty guy who's not going to make your life better. It means that you can pick a partner who's either going to enhance your life, or you can do something different. We have so many paths to a great life and I think that's really important, too.

• 1:26:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm on that path. What a perfect.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  I think that's amazing. Like, that's, do you know how many people probably feel so much less alone and more validated in their life choices because they look at how fabulous your life is and they say, oh, my gosh, okay, so that's an option. That's another thing I tell people all the time. We, our brains can't picture what they haven't seen. So you need to actively look for role models who are living these different types of lives to tell your brain.

• 1:26:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Tracee Ellis Ross.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  That it's possible. And you're being that for people actively every single day.

• 1:26:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thank you. I hope so.

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  You are. Oh, my God.

• 1:26:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was having a bad day the other day. One of my best friends was like, I, I look at you as somebody who has achieved this thing and has pushed past hard times in their life. And she's like, you're like the, she didn't say North Star, but you know, I think of myself as North Star.

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  But I said it for her.

• 1:26:49Rayna Greenberg?

  But she said to me, like, I see what you've been through and it makes me know that I can go through it too and be happy. And that's like, what a, what a compliment.

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 1:26:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  That's amazing. And I will say the internet, that's like, I'm so anti-social media, so anti the internet, despite like, having a following there and all of that.

• 1:27:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's necessary.

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  But I do think it's one of the best uses of the internet is you can actively seek out those people. There's every type of person, for better and for worse, exists on the internet. Find those people who are living these really different types of lives than you and follow them and, and make that a possibility for yourself.

• 1:27:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, Liz.

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Liz, thanks so much.

• 1:27:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't wait to relisten to this episode.

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  Do you remember the part where somebody called you a North Star?

• 1:27:28Rayna Greenberg?

  I think I called me a North Star.

• 1:27:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Five seconds ago. That's what, that's the title.

• 1:27:31Rayna Greenberg?

  That's actually, I'm just gonna clip that and watch it.

• 1:27:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina is Liz Moody's North Star. The clickbait.

• 1:27:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you're just phenomenal. I really, really, we both do encourage people to not only read your book, but your social media and your clips are great and your podcast. So tell everybody again where they can find you.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the number one place is the Liz Moody Podcast. That's, we have episodes every Monday and every Wednesday. The Monday's like a little shorty. It gives you a little bit of science that will make your week better. We help you stay off your phone. We help you.

• 1:27:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Stop your jealousy.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, with the screen time one. We have one about jealousy and comparison. I just did one about like, how to not feel behind in life and it's actual real science and tactics to not feel behind in life versus, and that's what differentiates us. We're not gonna just kind of like yell at you into feeling better. We're gonna be like, look, I get it. I've been there too. Here's actual science that can help. And then Wednesdays, we interview experts and get to hear their take on everything from gut health, relationships, to finances, anything and everything that can help you live your healthiest, happiest life. And then I'm on social media, at Liz Moody on Instagram and TikTok. And I have a book, 100 Ways to Change Your Life.

• 1:28:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh yeah, get the book, you guys. Get the book, listen to the podcast, follow her on social. I mean, you're just a wealth of really amazing, interesting knowledge. We love your content so much.

• 1:28:39Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. You guys are so awesome. I could do this for like,

• 1:28:42Rayna Greenberg?

  We have been.

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  17 more hours.

• 1:28:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you guys know where to find us. GirlsGottaEat.com, GirlsGottaEatPodcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess, Reina is Reina.Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube and of course, share this episode with a friend and we will see you guys on Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.