3 Steps To Building A Healthy Relationship

Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Navigating the battlefield of modern love requires mastering both vulnerability and boundaries, as revealed in this powerful relationship wisdom episode featuring three of today's most insightful voices. Former Bachelor star Nick Viall discusses his dating journey from "love martyr" to genuine connection. Relationship coaches Matthew Hussey and Sadia Khan illuminate why many committed relationships fail when we prioritize intensity over true compatibility. They offer essential guidance for breaking toxic cycles and creating authentic connections that stand the test of time. And renowned therapist Esther Perel unpacks the polarities that both challenge and strengthen our bonds in marriage. Whether you're healing from heartbreak, questioning your patterns, or seeking to deepen your connection, these rare insights from relationship royalty will revolutionize how you love - and how you let yourself be loved. In this episode you will learn:How to navigate all 3 phases of relationship – dating, commitment, and marriageHow to distinguish between the intense feelings of chemistry versus the deeper foundation of compatibility in relationshipsWhy becoming a "love martyr" leads to staying in broken relationships and how to break this destructive patternThe critical difference between validation and love, and how confusing the two creates unhealthy relationship dynamicsThree powerful questions to ask yourself after a breakup to heal with more grace and move forwardFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1751For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Nick Viall – greatness.lnk.to/1565SCSadia Khan & Matthew Hussey – greatness.lnk.to/1659SCEsther Perel – greatness.lnk.to/1686SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life, and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneymeasibook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment, moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to this episode on the School of Greatness.

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  A lot of the things you've done in reality TV, right? Bachelorette, Bachelor, now your podcast is a top podcast, really sharing like modern dating wisdom from the mistakes you've made and the lessons you've learned and all this different stuff. If you could go back to, you know, 20-year-old you, when you were a star track athlete in college and high school and things like that, and you could give him three pieces of advice.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  That's a great question.

• 1:12Lewis Howes?

  On how to really become a great man and to attract a great partner for yourself, what would you say to him with that advice?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I'd sit him down probably, and first and foremost, I would, I would remind him that sometimes feeling in love doesn't always mean that you are in love, and that sometimes feelings can be misleading.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  You know, like you can feel that spark, you know, or seduction and things like that, and that, that you're pining over someone, and that intensity of that excitement, all can be misconstrued into love and things like that. I'd also remind him that there, there's no benefit to being a love martyr.

• 1:59Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean by that?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  It's actually something I was just doing on another friend's podcast, and it kind of came up, because, you know, my background, I grew up... I had a, I had a great childhood, you know, loving parents, family of, I have 10 brothers and sisters. I'm the second oldest of 11 kids. Wow. Parents are still married today. They were a great example of love. We grew up Catholic. And so there's a little bit, I don't know how familiar I was with Catholicism, but there's a little kind of martyr and the whole thing. And so I think that kind of passed down to us kids, but you know, I, what I learned from my parents was that love is special, but it's also, you know, relationships can be really hard. And, you know, then you grow up watching rom coms and TV shows. Disney and.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and movies like The Notebook, who have all these high stakes and quite frankly, a lot of toxicity in relationships, but those types of shows teach you that none of it really matters as long as you end up together. And in reality, that's not really the case, but as a young man, I kind of took those lessons and thought to myself, well, love is hard, you know, is special and it's hard. So you just have to fight through, you know, all these challenges. And yes, every relationship has its challenges and you, you know, you have to work through stuff. But I kind of turned into a bit of a love martyr, you know? I got to the point where it didn't really even matter if I liked them, you know?

• 3:28Speaker 01

  It's like, I didn't ask myself questions like, do I enjoy their company? Do they enjoy mine? Are we even compatible? It was more like, well, I'll fight for the relationship so much that the more I fought for it, the, the more special I thought that relationship was and what that meant. Even if they weren't the right match? Even if I wasn't the right match. I mean, there were, you know, my first girlfriend, God bless her. I met her when I was 18. We broke up so many times. Usually it was her breaking up with me and, and, and every time she broke up with me, it was like, I, I had to fight for the relationship because, you know, again, love is special. And whether it was my parents telling me that love is special, but you have to work hard on things. You know, I had the right intentions, so to speak, but like it was a bit misguided.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  And I, and I think through that I spent a lot of energy on people who, quite frankly, it just wasn't the right fit. Wow. But I kind of misconstrued my intentions, so to speak. And, you know, it kind of became that love martyr. And I think a lot of people are, you know, sometimes where you, you kind of get stuck in these relationships and you think about things like, well, I can't break up now. We've been dating for so long. As if like So invested, right? Yeah, so invested and there would be no value to these past three years of our relationship if we end the relationship. So I have to keep fighting and if I fight, I will somehow be rewarded.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  And my love will be special because the worse it is, the harder I have to fight. And if the harder I fight, the more special it is. And it's such a misconstrued, toxic way to look at relationships, but I very much did. So I would, I would tell him not to be a love martyr. Okay. And the third thing?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  I would tell him to be careful about listening to your ego over your heart, you know? And I think that's something I did a lot of and I confused validation with love. You know, and I think we do that a lot. So when our ego takes over and I think, you know, sometimes I, I talk a lot about ego on my show. Almost to the point where I feel like it gets like a bad rap in a way, but it's not really true. You know, I don't know if you're like a comic book fan at all, but I kind of equate ego to like a superpower. Okay. A superpower that like if you, in X-Men, are you familiar with like the Phoenix character, right? She's so powerful that she can't control her own power to the point where it's Kills people. It harms others, right?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  And that's kind of like your ego. Your ego can be a superpower. Your ego is what gives you the confidence to like act as if, you know, you had to have some kind of ego to do what you've done, right? To say, I could do this. Why, why not me? You know, that takes a little bit of ego and that confidence. And that, that allows you to step up the play to, you know, face impossible challenges. But if you can't control that ego, if you can't, you know, be mindful of, you know, when it creeps up, it can really lead you down dark paths, you know? Your ego will tell you. That you have to change the wrong thing, chase the wrong thing because again, your ego is like saying, well, you're not good enough. That, you know, that person who won't give you respect,

• 6:38Speaker 01

  who doesn't make you a priority, who treats you with disrespect. Well, if you can get them to change their behavior for you, even though they've done all this with other, all these other people, you'll be special. Wow. And chasing that feeling of being special, because my ego thought, well, you know, because I was a, you know, I played sports, I was a competitive guy, you know, that challenge, you know, that fix of the recognition of, oh, you, you did this. I can't believe you did this. You got that, you know, that boy or whatever to like, to settle for you. Right. Hey, no one else could do that, but you got to do that. And that must make you special. And so that chasing the validation and not, and not being mindful

• 7:22Speaker 01

  of when your ego was telling you to chase the wrong thing, um, got me into a lot of trouble. And I spent a lot of time, uh, not accepting, uh, relationships that weren't really healthy for me. And I wasted a lot of my time, you know, following my ego and not my heart. Man, you mentioned this concept of validation. What is the difference between validation and love? Well, I feel like love is more about acceptance of, well, of yourself and the people you do love. I mean, you know, to truly love someone is accepting who they are, both for their strengths and their weaknesses. And it's when you really love their weaknesses, you know, you don't necessarily have to accept their weaknesses all the time.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  You can always challenge the people you love to become a better person. But at the end of the day, you got to go to a point where you accept them for everything that they are. And, you know, not to sound cheesy or cliche, but that starts with yourself, you know? Uh, validation is almost the oppo, it's quite honestly, it would seem like the little opposite when I think about it. It's like, it's that feeling of, of, of needing outside praise, you know, that recognition and, and needing that to feel enough, you know, rather than just knowing that you are. And so when you're chasing validation relationships, You're suggesting that you, and I felt that when I was younger, I felt like I'm not gonna be a complete person until I find that right person.

• 8:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  You know, my partner, you know, and until then.

• 8:50Lewis Howes?

  Why did you feel that?

• 8:52Speaker 01

  I, I think it was because I, you know, again, for as great as my parents were, I think, you know, between seeing their love and, and getting caught up in the, all the rom coms and the romance of love, I think I just kinda had a misconstru-, it was, it was, I felt like it was so important, you know, you gotta find that person, start a family and things like that, that I thought to myself, well, if I, until I find that, I'm not a finished product.

• 9:18Lewis Howes?

  Well, interesting.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  You know, and, and so, you know, when I started looking for love, then it became, you know, looking for the person who I thought made me, you know, a better person. And people will say that too. It's like, what are you looking for? Oh, I'm looking for someone to make me a better person. Well, I, I, I learned that was not what you should be looking for. You can, I hope everyone gets to find someone like I feel like I've found, uh, someone that helps you become your best version of yourself, but no one's gonna make you a better person.

• 9:49Lewis Howes?

  Right. That's a lot of responsibility and weight.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  A lot of weight, yeah. And, you know, how do they look next to you and things like that? And all those things that at the end of the day, don't really matter. And so, love is, again, just acceptance of what you have and the people you're with and loving your, your person for their strengths and their weaknesses. And, you know, I hope I answered your question.

• 10:11Lewis Howes?

  It's beautiful, yeah. I'm curious, what would you say are a few key things that anyone going through a horrible breakup can do to overcome that with more grace?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I would say, uh, the pain doesn't mean they were special.

• 10:28Lewis Howes?

  Ooh. Wow.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Cause I used to do that, you know? The more hurt I felt over a breakup, uh, the more my, I don't know if it was my ego or something internally would tell me, well, that, that must mean what I lost was very special.

• 10:43Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  And that means I have to fight for it, you know?

• 10:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man. What does the pain mean most of the time?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  The pain might mean that like you, it was meaningful. You know, like if you're in any type of long-term relationship, you clearly shared meaningful moments. They take up a lot of your time. You probably met their family, they met yours. You've developed some really great memories to get together. You probably made a lot of promises about the future with one another that now, if the relationship ended, you have to think about all the promises you made that aren't gonna happen. And that can be very painful, that it's the loss. It's the loss of something that, you know, at one point you held dear in your heart. And I think that's where the pain comes from because even a relationship that is unhealthy

• 11:35Speaker 01

  or toxic and sadly even sometimes abusive can still be hard to lose because, you know, a lot of those relationships take up so much of our energy and time. And sometimes when we lose a relationship or a loved one and we lose access to them, we, you know, you have to fill it with, you know, there's the loss of the feelings that you have and the literal loss of all the time that you used to spend with them. Well, now what do you do? You know, the Sundays that you used to go to the farmer's market and the movies. Now it's like, I don't know what to do. And just filling that void, you know, can be very painful at first. But I learned that just because I was hurting over someone doesn't necessarily mean that they were the right fit for me.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  That, you know, that's what was good for my heart. And I had to then focus on accepting the loss and accepting that the relationship, while meaningful for a period of time, wasn't necessarily something that was right for me.

• 12:32Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  So that would be one.

• 12:34Lewis Howes?

  What would you say to yourself when you were like eight months in deep? When you're like, I can't control my feelings and I'll never get over this and no one understands me. If you were coaching yourself, what would you say?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Uh, I would probably tell myself to get over myself.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, because most people out there probably can understand heartbreak, you know? And I think that was my ego, you know? When I was my first love, me and my buddy, my first girlfriend, we met her and her girlfriend at the same time. You know, very kind of serendipitously. And I remember having a thought with my first girlfriend, and I think a lot of young people have thoughts like this where it's like, we're kind of the most in love couple. Yes. You know, we're, we're more in love than with that. Yeah. Because that's that ego wanting to be like wanting your love. Everyone wants their love to feel and be special. And I think the intentions are pure, but it can kind of turn a little toxic. And so, yeah, I would probably just tell myself to maybe, you know, get over myself a little bit and recognize that I'm not the only one who's ever experienced heartbreak.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Uh, not the only one who's ever been cheated on. You're not alone, you know? If, if you have been heartbroken, the good news is you're, you're not alone. And unfortunately, infidelity is very commonplace in relationships now more than ever.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  And, you know, you are, you don't have a reason to be shamed over it. You know, it's not you, it's literally them. You know, there's maybe some things you can learn from, from it. There's always, you can always learn from misfortune and challenges. But I would stop making myself more of a martyr than I need to be, you know? Because again, I think the way I dealt with pain back then was to try, that was my ego saying, all right, well, if you can't have the relationship, at least the pain we're feeling right now, we'll find a way to make ourselves feel special about it. So because you're hurting more than anyone else, then you are, that's, you're, you're willing to sacrifice and be sad for love.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  And, and somehow that made me feel, I guess in a way, special, even though it also simultaneously made me feel very down. And it kept me stuck. Yes. And I think that's what a lot of people experience in, in breakups is they stay stuck much longer than they need to. They stay stuck in the past. Yeah. And it can be scary because it's like, again, some, you know, the longer the relationship, the more memories we have. And the future can be, you know, the uncertainty is very scary. And, and so we don't want to face our fears and so we'll hold on to the past. And like I said before, sometimes we'll hold on to the pain because it's the last thing we have left.

• 15:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Wow. What's the best relationship advice you've ever received?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  I honestly think it was from Dr. Wayne Dwyer was, was what other people think of you is none of your business.

• 15:22Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  And even in relationships, sometimes, you know, always kind of worrying about, you know, it's kind of, that's their opinion. And that really honestly helped me with my relationships on reality TV and handling my relationships with fans and things like that. I, I always think of relationships more than just romantic ones.

• 15:40Lewis Howes?

  Cause you got criticized a ton.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  A ton. And it really, it edits who you are. You know, the more you seek out the opinions of others about yourselves, the more it, it changes you. You know, then you're not acting on what you think deep down you should do or, you know, um, because of what your character is and things like that. It's just like, well, you think this and you think that, and you know, I hear you there. Yep. No, that's a fair point. And I guess, you know, I see what you're saying there. So like, all right, let me do a version of what I guess I think you're all saying.

• 16:13Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  And, and I think that's kind of how you become someone that's, doesn't feel like it's you. Um, and, and so, yeah, those other opinions are just, it's, those are their opinions and that's their business and it's none of mine. And that's something I've constantly tried to remind myself of.

• 16:28Lewis Howes?

  What's your thoughts on if people should be public with their relationship? Or they should be posting that they're getting in a relationship with this person and all the, the date nights they're doing and all the conversations they're having. And should they be doing it on TV and doing it on social media? Do you think that creates a healthy, long-term relationship or is that setting up a disaster?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  More the latter. I think it's, it's a risk. Yeah. I don't see any real benefit for the relationship.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  And Natalie and I, you know, we post about our relationship and she's on the vials, you know, a lot more now. And, you know, we like to share some things about our relationship. We certainly don't share everything. I always say like Instagram's not a love language.

• 17:17Lewis Howes?

  It is for a lot of people.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  It is for a lot of people. Yeah.

• 17:20Lewis Howes?

  A lot of women love being posted on Instagram. Why is that?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's the validation. I think we just are a society that really seeks out the approval of others, you know?

• 17:32Lewis Howes?

  What is the biggest risk of a woman wanting their man to post about them consistently on Instagram?

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Well, again, because you you are increasing the chances of you caring a lot about what other people say. Because you're reading all these comments. Oh, you guys look so good together. You guys, oh, what is that? And I always say the, in my experience, in the public eye and in social media, that the positive comments are more dangerous than the negative ones.

• 18:02Lewis Howes?

  Really? Why?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Uh, because it's easy to dismiss negative ones. Like, I don't know me. Screw that, that, whatever. But, you know, after a few hard eyed emojis and, oh, my God, you're the cutest couple of all time. You know, whether they're positive or negative, they're all strangers.

• 18:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  They don't know me. They have no insight into my life. They they just, they they they can make guesses from what they've seen or whatever, but they don't, they don't really know me. But if I'm going to read a bunch of positive comments and take them to heart, well, then my subconscious is going to say, well, that's, you're going, well, you can't pick and choose. You have to take the negative ones to heart as well. So by getting the positive ones and you read them, you're like, oh, yep, nope, I'm awesome. I'm awesome. I'm awesome. I'm awesome. And then you're like, well, these, these are very valid comments because, you know, I am awesome.

• 18:58Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden that negative one hits you and you're sub, you, even if you say, oh, they don't know me, you've spent all this time not saying that about the com, positive ones.

• 19:08Lewis Howes?

  They don't know you either.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  They don't know you either. But now your, your subconscious brain is taking it all to heart. And so that's why I always feel like the positive ones are, are setting you up. Uh, for the negative comment.

• 19:21Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  It's really, it's really dangerous that way.

• 19:24Lewis Howes?

  If there's a woman coming to you asking for advice, saying, you know, I've been in a relationship for six months with this guy and he hasn't posted about me yet on social media, on Instagram. And I really want him to. What should I say to get him to post about me or how can I do it to get him to post about me? What advice would you give that woman about this conversation?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, despite me saying it can be a risk, I, I do think there's some news that about, you know, being with someone who gives you the sense that they're proud to be with you, that they wanna share their relationship, you know? Everything is about balance. And listen, we live in a world where a lot of things are online. So, you know, extremes scare me on anything. So if someone, I've been dating this guy for six months, everything's very, but he refuses to post, it's a bit of a red flag.

• 20:14Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  You know?

• 20:15Lewis Howes?

  Unless he's just not on social media.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  If he's not on social media, yeah, that would be my first question is like, does he ever post?

• 20:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, he's like, no.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Like, no, it's like, well, then I don't think there's an issue. If he's posting about his friends and all this stuff, and he's pretty active, and he's not posting about you, like, that's definitely a red flag. So if it's the latter and he is an active poster and he's actively on there, I would just, just tell him how, what it would mean to you, you know? It would just mean a lot if, if you, you know, shared our relationship and just, I just want, I wanna feel like you're proud of, of our relationship. And I think that's an okay feeling, you know? I think the best thing we can do when we communicate to our loved ones is to say, like, this is how I feel about a situation. This would mean a lot. And then the big question is you give them an opportunity to see if they're willing to make you a priority.

• 21:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Because I think there's a lot of relationships out there where people are accepting their partners not prioritizing them and choosing to stay in the relationship more out of fear of what else might be out there or what they don't think they can find, rather than feeling loved and feeling validated. It's funny how, you know, people will call in about relationships and they'll, they'll... But we frustrated with her partner and um I one of my favorite questions I asked them is um what do you like or love about how they make you feel? It's so funny how a lot of times people won't have an answer to that, you know?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  And though it's like, oh, well, you know, like we have fun together and like, you know, he's really smart and he's really nice with people and like, that's all great, but how do you, what do you love about how they make you feel? Because what I'm hearing from you is you spend a lot of time telling me that you're you're confused, you're often sad, uh, you feel lonely, you know? So I'm just wondering why, what about this relationship are you fighting for?

• 22:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and just because someone looks good on paper doesn't mean they're good for you.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're or they're not just make, they're not making, you know, what's the point of being a relationship if they don't make you feel loved?

• 22:24Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  You know, and I think I was that person. I was in a lot of relationships where I asked myself, does this, I don't, I don't even think she likes me. You know, because I used to always prioritize chemistry over compatibility, which I think most of us do because chemistry is sexy.

• 22:39Lewis Howes?

  It is.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  You know, it's fun, you know, it's gives you that spark.

• 22:43Lewis Howes?

  Passionate, yeah, yeah.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Uh, unfortunately, it's chemistry is hard to trust and chemistry can be very much uh manufactured.

• 22:50Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  You know, chemi, you know, people are just naturally charismatic, you know, tall, good looking, you know, can brighten up a room when they walk in. Chemistry can be found because of similar interests. People who go on The Bachelor have a natural chemistry because of a shared experience, being part of the same church or community. That can create chemistry between people. Uh, but that doesn't necessarily mean love. Now compatibility, compatibility on the other hand is it's not as sexy, it's not as fun, but that you can trust a lot more, you know? Do we enjoy being around each other, you know? Natalie is the first person that I've been in a relationship with where we have a lot in common, you know, where we're very compatible.

• 23:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Because I used, again, back to that love martyr. I didn't even prioritize chemistry or compatibility at all. It was like. And I was like, well, it doesn't matter. We're in love. Love, it doesn't matter, you know? I love her and love will conquer all. But then every day was just like, so what do you like? What do you want to eat for dinner? Like, what should we watch?

• 23:50Lewis Howes?

  It was like complete opposite.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Complete opposite, you know, and love, relationships are hard enough.

• 23:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  You know, even when you're super compatible and you're on the same page most of the time, it still requires sacrifice and compromise. And if you have to do that for every decision, every day, it is exhausting.

• 24:06Lewis Howes?

  Exhausting.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  And yeah, I just, you know, we are a society that prioritizes chemistry far too much, and we have to give compatibility a little bit more of a spotlight.

• 24:22Lewis Howes?

  You said one of the things is poor conflict resolution is one of the things that causes people to break up. You added to that as well, Matthew. Why do you think people struggle with emotional regulation, not just in life, but even heightened more in relationships? And how can someone learn to regulate their emotions in a relationship if they've been so used to reacting in fight or flight mode for so long? What do you think is a process they can start? Have you started? And we'll have you add to it, Saria.

• 24:52Matthew Hussey?

  Well, I think the people that trigger us the most are the people that we're closest to. So it's hard to, you know, they, well, they uniquely know how to push our buttons as well. Hopefully, they don't do that on purpose, but you know, they, they have the knowledge to be able to push our buttons. But also just, it's like family, you know, you think you've grown so much and you think you've become so kind of wise and you've healed and then you go back for Christmas with family or for the holidays.

• 25:22Lewis Howes?

  Push your buttons and trigger you.

• 25:23Matthew Hussey?

  Within two days, something has you feeling like a 14 year old who's mad again, you know? It's those people that are closest to us have this unique ability to impact us. So I think it's really, it's really easy to have patience with a friend, you know? People like, oh, it's so much easier with my friends. Yeah, no, you don't see your friend every night of the week. You see them once every couple of weeks. It's like a little honeymoon every time you get together because you just, you're just excited to see each other. Of course, they don't push your buttons the same way. But the person you're with every day is going to. So I think having, we have to almost step back from it a little bit and go, this isn't necessarily a sign that my partner is so much worse than

• 26:07Matthew Hussey?

  everybody else. It's a sign that this person is so close to me that it's the easiest place for me to get triggered. And it's probably the pace, the place I have the least patience. Because I give so much energy everywhere else in my life. I take for granted that this person's going to be there at the end of the day.

• 26:26Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:26Matthew Hussey?

  You know, we go to work and we give our best energy and then we go home and whatever is left, we hand to our partner. And, you know, we've reserved our patience for everyone else in our lives. So I think taking a step back and going, what would it look like? It's a very hard thing to do, but what would it look like if I gave my partner the kind of grace or patience or understanding that I give to other people in my life that frankly, probably do a lot less for me, that show up a lot less for me?

• 27:02Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 27:03Matthew Hussey?

  What would it look like if I started showing up for them in that way? I think isn't a, isn't a bad question.

• 27:08Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. What would you, what would you add to that?

• 27:10Sadia Khan?

  I would say one of the problems with emotional dysregulation is we as human beings tend to select the person who enables the dysregulation rather than the person we want to be with the most.

• 27:19Lewis Howes?

  Why do we select that person more?

• 27:21Sadia Khan?

  Because they tolerate our insufferable behavior a bit more. So sometimes as somebody, and as a woman who's suffered from lots of emotional dysregulation in the past, I would find myself just seeing somebody's tolerance of my insufferable behavior as a signal of love. So sometimes people who can't regulate their emotions will look for the punching bag in their life. They'll look for the person that they can be dysregulated for, and that person remains committed. And they see that as a signal of like love, and they connect with the person who actually has weak boundaries. So a combination of emotional dysregulation and selecting somebody who is tolerable.

• 27:54Lewis Howes?

  Who accepts the dysregulation.

• 27:55Sadia Khan?

  Yeah, it leads to that dysregulation not being resolved. I think the key question is that you with emotional dysregulation, we know if we do that work, we'll get fired. And we know that if we do that in public, we'll we'll

• 28:07Lewis Howes?

  It's true, right?

• 28:08Sadia Khan?

  We'll get arrested if we do that in public. But when we pick a partner and we make sure that that partner doesn't actually have a willingness to walk away, or that partner just allows it the most, we might just exude all of our dysregulation on that one party. So it's really important when you suffer from emotional dysregulation to select a partner that still just because they can tolerate, it doesn't mean that they should. And they should still, and you on the receiving end, still have a threshold of how much you can and can't accept. And only when a partner or a person who's emotionally dysregulated meets somebody that they genuinely love and respect, but also has a very clear threshold of how much they can handle, does a dysregulated partner start to monitor their own reactions.

• 28:49Sadia Khan?

  But if they feel like they can get away with it, sometimes they will. So I think dysregulation can lead to selection of enablers rather than selections of compatibility.

• 28:59Lewis Howes?

  What is this quote, I'm sure you both have heard this, if they can't accept me at my worst, they don't deserve me at my best. What do you guys think about that saying in relationships?

• 29:09Sadia Khan?

  I I used to be a big banner for that because I was a nightmare myself. So I was like, oh, I love this statement, you know? But I think if you can't respect somebody at your worst, you don't deserve them at your best. And so while you're at your worst, if you just totally disrespect that person and totally crush their boundaries, you don't deserve them when they're at their best, or you don't deserve them when you're at your best. So instead of expecting somebody to tolerate your behavior, remember you also have a duty of care to them. And you should also say, at my worst, I don't want to put them through so much suffering. At my worst, I want to express myself. I understand I'm not going to be perfect, but doesn't mean I treat them as an emotional punching bag.

• 29:49Lewis Howes?

  That's so I can't, yeah, emotionally punch on them all day long and then say, well, you have to deal with my emotions.

• 29:55Sadia Khan?

  And then you'll get a party on your birthday. Like, it doesn't really work that way. So it's almost like a form of manipulation. And I'm saying that in the worst case scenario because I've been that person that had that kind of mantra. But it's actually how we treat our loved ones at our worst is a symbol of how much we respect them. And we need to try and be mindful of that because some people just can't tolerate you at your worst. Doesn't mean they don't love you. It's just that they can't, they're not equipped for that level of like emotional dysregulation.

• 30:22Lewis Howes?

  You should, you should be able to, I mean, your worst as a child, I'm assuming you're going to scream and throw tantrums constantly. But then hopefully you learn how to develop your emotions and navigate your emotions. So that you can be frustrated or have a breakdown, but not trash on someone.

• 30:37Sadia Khan?

  Yeah, not punish someone.

• 30:38Lewis Howes?

  Not punish someone and say, you're doing this to me. Right. It's like, learning how to, you know, maybe you need to step away, or maybe you're gonna get loud for a moment, but you're not going to attack someone.

• 30:47Sadia Khan?

  Ask yourself, would you tolerate you at your worst? If at your worst, you get abusive?

• 30:51Lewis Howes?

  Right now, yeah.

• 30:51Sadia Khan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:52Lewis Howes?

  I mean, I'm good right now, but yeah.

• 30:53Sadia Khan?

  I would tolerate me in the past, I wouldn't. But right now, it's fine. But in the past, if your worst looks like emotional abuse, if it looks like infidelity, if it looks like a physical abuse, would you tolerate you at your worst? And if you would, perfect, you're probably in a healthy space. If you wouldn't, what would you suggest to somebody who's gonna have to, what would you say to yourself if you had to experience that? And if you would say to yourself, oh, just leave, don't tolerate that, then don't expect your partner to tolerate you.

• 31:19Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard to leave a relationship when, after many years, when someone treats you poorly, or they have dysregulation frequently, let's call it on a weekly basis, or every other day, it seems like dysregulation, or this type of emotional, I don't know if you want to call it abuse, or

• 31:40Sadia Khan?

  Roller coaster.

• 31:41Lewis Howes?

  Roller coaster emotions, lack of respect. Why would you say, Matthew, it's so hard to leave a relationship? The relationship is failing, it's not healthy, but people tend to stay. In your work that you do with a lot of women, why do women stay so long? Maybe there's kids or not kids involved, but why do women stay? And how can they start to shift to make it healthier, or get out of it in a healthy way?

• 32:10Matthew Hussey?

  Think it's, well, it would be, it would be termed the trauma bond, right? That, there's a

• 32:19Matthew Hussey?

  There's this behavior that makes life really hard with this person, or it might even make it intolerable, but we tolerate it for as long as we can. And then, you know, if it ever got too, too bad for too long, we would just have to leave, right? If it was, if it was just hell 24/7, no matter what, we would leave. It would be enough, we would reach a certain pain threshold. But there's doses of moments, right? Of good moments. There's that moment where, you know, someone does something that hints a different side of them. It hints at the potential for kindness, the potential for understanding. It hints at what the relationship could be. Or was in the beginning. Or was in the beginning and, and that reels us back in.

• 33:04Matthew Hussey?

  And we are so elated and so happy to have this moment that we then say, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back in. And then, of course, the other side, the other shoe drops, which it always does. And, um, you know, I, I think of it as a, a broken clock, right? The, the broken clock is right twice a day. But you don't think is a good, it's not a good watch for telling the time. Yeah. Right? It's failed in its fundamental function. But when it's right, you go, well, you know, like that kind of relationship you're describing is the broken watch. We're trying to use this thing to tell the time, thinking that, oh, no, it was right a minute ago.

• 33:48Matthew Hussey?

  Well, maybe, maybe it's working after all. And then we have to wait another 12 hours before it's right again. So that, you, you have to ask yourself, am I in that broken watch relationship?

• 34:02Matthew Hussey?

  And if I am, what's, what's the way to get out of that? Well, I think one of the ways is to properly tune into your feelings.

• 34:12Matthew Hussey?

  Because I think we don't really tune into what our experience is. We are so focused on where it could go or the fact that we think that we will be, we'll never be okay if we lose this person, that I will, how will I get by? Can I, can I deal with the pain of losing this person? If I could just get them and turn them into the thing that I need them to be, then I'll be happy. We're so fixated on that, that we're not fixated on the pain that we are in constantly. Which is making us miserable. Or if we really paid attention, we'd look at how this disproportionately makes us miserable.

• 34:53Matthew Hussey?

  I worked with someone who ended a relationship with a very toxic person. And this person was never around. This person was completely dismissive. Even on the weekends when they were together, this person was just on their laptop, paying them absolutely zero attention. And the woman that I was coaching, I remember at the end of the relationship, she said, I just don't know how I'm gonna do this, how I'm gonna be on my own. And then I showed her the relationship. Yeah, like if I'm, I don't know how I'm gonna be on my own. And then I actually showed her the relationship.

• 35:32Lewis Howes?

  You are on your own.

• 35:33Matthew Hussey?

  And I said, this person's never home, they stay out. On the weekends, you're completely alone, even when you're in the same room. You've spent the last five years learning how to be alone. You're already good at this. You just have this old association that, that I, when I leave, I'm not gonna be able to take it. But you already have the tools.

• 35:52Lewis Howes?

  Why is it, why does it seem like it's easier as a girlfriend or a guy friend of a person in a struggling relationship? Why is it easy for them to see, man, this has been two years you've been in this pattern, this loop of up and down emotional roller coaster and it doesn't seem healthy? When it's so hard for the person in the relationship to realize, man, this is broken. This is not working, but I'm gonna keep trying to make it work. I'm gonna keep trying to get that clock to hit the right time every minute. Why do, why is it so hard for people to understand they're in a broken relationship?

• 36:25Sadia Khan?

  The investment they've placed into it makes it very difficult for them to see objective reality. In their mind, they have a vision of the future. It might involve children, it might involve a home, it might involve any kind of connection. And they think that vision can only be achieved with the person they've invested the most in. They don't realize that vision is still achievable outside of this relationship. They attribute the ability to achieve all of that to this relationship working out. As a friend or a family member, you can say, you're still a great person. You can still find love, you can still have kids, you can still get married. But you can do it outside of this relationship. They don't see the vision outside of the relationship. So they've zoomed into the perspective of only through this person can I achieve my end goals. We as friends and family can say your goals are still are separate to this individual.

• 37:09Sadia Khan?

  They can still occur, but with somebody who doesn't have the unhealthy traits that make it impossible in this certain situation.

• 37:15Lewis Howes?

  What do you think of the things, and we're talking about why relationships fail, but what do you think of the things that people don't do before committing to the relationship? That end up causing it to be just a rocky foundation to start with, which is destined to fail? What, you know, what are the things that women do or men do that you think, set up a rocky foundation, I'll let you start.

• 37:39Sadia Khan?

  They don't communicate what is a deal breaker to them. They know all the things that they like. I like to go on dinner dates, I like to do this, I like to do that. But they forget that the stability of the relationship depends on the actual deal breakers, rather than all the things that you love about the person.

• 37:53Lewis Howes?

  What are some examples of deal breakers that people don't communicate?

• 37:55Sadia Khan?

  It might be lack of availability, emotional availability, it might be lack of affection. So they might be funny, they might have a great job, they might be beautiful, all of those things. But if they are emotionally unavailable, or if they are not considerate, or if they're not compassionate as a person, but I haven't realized that, that deal breaker is still there, causing disruption of peace every single day. But if I realize my deal breakers and I go into it with a mentality that as long as, I don't care if you're an angel on paper, but if you've got even one deal breaker, chances are we'll fight about this deal breaker forever.

• 38:24Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 38:24Sadia Khan?

  It could just be that, you know, we disagree on, a deal breaker might be commitment levels. How much commitment do I want? Or just a deal breaker might be how much time we spend together, quality time. It might be any of the love languages, one of them might be a deal breaker for you. But if that person has even one deal breaker, it will resurface again and again until the relationship slowly starts to corrode. So it's important to express what you think emotionally might be a deal breaker for you.

• 38:49Lewis Howes?

  And what do you, what do you think are the biggest deal breakers for people? Would you say it's sex or topics around sex, money and topics around money?

• 38:59Lewis Howes?

  Family, kids, religion, or something else?

• 39:04Matthew Hussey?

  Good. I suppose it could be anything depending on the person.

• 39:08Lewis Howes?

  Or is it just literally like we could have three things that are right, but if we have two that are off, like eventually it's going to be harder to to make it work? Like, what do you think?

• 39:17Matthew Hussey?

  I mean, I think if we have a very different vision for what for how we want to live our lives, you know, those are those are really hard, you know? One person wants a family and the other one doesn't, you know, these are but to the point of communication, those are things that often people turn a blind eye to.

• 39:36Lewis Howes?

  Why is that? Why do we not communicate deal breakers and things that are actually really important? Because Before committing to the relationship.

• 39:42Matthew Hussey?

  We have a scarcity mindset. It's that that fear of nothing better is going to come along. Look, I think that in our love lives especially, we really want to meet someone.

• 39:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 39:58Matthew Hussey?

  It's a universal thing. We really want to meet someone and when we haven't met someone, we can start to get scared as time goes on and we think there's something wrong with us and I'm broken and I'm never going to find someone and what if it never happens for me? And God, it's so hard to meet someone. And so the most dangerous moment in love and dating is the moment you meet someone you're attracted to. That is the most dangerous moment because if you meet a person you're attracted to in a place of scarcity and fear,

• 40:37Matthew Hussey?

  that is precisely the time that you lower your standards and you lose your boundaries. Because the instinct is don't do anything that could mess it up. The instinct is not, let me see how right this is.

• 40:54Matthew Hussey?

  Don't do anything to screw this up. Now, people have different ways of dealing with that fear. But if you take, you know, one example is some people go into like anxious fawning. Right? I'm scared. I'm just gonna do everything I what what what kind of category characterizes anxious fawning I'm gonna

• 41:19Lewis Howes?

  anxious fawning

• 41:20Matthew Hussey?

  fawning yeah I'm gonna like so I'm anxious and my instinct when I'm anxious is to try to make you happy because if I can make you happy maybe you'll never leave me so for a lot of people what that means is I over give at the same time as under communicating what I really need which is a really poisonous combination right because it simultaneously means you burn out giving to someone but also no one knows what you really want and you can

• 41:49Lewis Howes?

  and you resent the person for not giving you what you need that you haven't communicated it

• 41:53Matthew Hussey?

  yeah you resent them but you're too afraid to rock the boat because you don't want to lose them and it's fascinating to me like you can literally look at different types of people and how they how they react to that like if you if you are doing that and you come across an avoidant someone who's avoidant is gonna get pushed away they're gonna be like this is a lot and you're gonna keep giving even though they've pulled away because that's what you do but you're not gonna communicate that it's hurt you that you've they've pulled away so with an avoidant type you won't get your needs met because you won't communicate as they pull away you'll just keep giving hoping that they'll come back if you come across an anxious person and you're anxiously fawning that person might consume you everyone but most people or not most people some people

• 42:38Matthew Hussey?

  have had that experience with a parent where their parent was just trying to get their own needs met and they became the child that gave and gave and gave and gave and gave to try to make the parent happy but because they had no boundaries around that they became deeply resentful of this one-sided relationship with their parent people then go into that in relationships too where it's like they just live in service of this other person who's anxiously taking as much as they can if you come across a secure person and you're anxiously fawning then that person's gonna have a hard time connecting with you because they're not gonna know what your preferences are you're gonna say they're gonna say what do you want for dinner and you say what do you want for dinner and they'll go uh I don't know Chinese food and you'll and you'll go that was me too I wanted that and if you do that three times in a row they'll realize they don't

• 43:22Matthew Hussey?

  know who you are yeah they can't connect with you they don't know how to make you happy And they can't really trust you because they can't trust that you're ever really saying what you really think. So I say this to highlight the fact that this is how these dynamics get started is we're coming from a place of fear. And when we're coming from a place of fear, we go to the weapons that we know how to use, right? We all have our weapon of choice. For some people, it's, I don't let anyone screw with me. And that's their weapon of choice. And the moment they think they could get hurt, they reject someone before that person can reject them. Other people is my weapon of choice is making, trying to do as much as possible for you that I make myself indispensable. We, it's worth

• 44:07Matthew Hussey?

  everyone asking, like, what's my weapon of choice? What do I default to? And if I never question what I'm defaulting to, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna always be in the same kinds of relationships. And by the way, that anxious fawning I'm talking about, who does it attract? The toxic person, right? Because that person sees a free lunch. I'm gonna come and take everything from the buffet here. And then when I'm done with it, I'm out. So we, then we go, how, why do I always attract people like this? Or why do I always fall into these patterns? It's because there is a weapon that we are overusing. And at some point,

• 44:49Matthew Hussey?

  we have to, like, it's a very brave thing to go, what weapon am I overusing? And recognized, by the way, that's meeting a need. That there's some need it's meeting, right? If I, if I'm this, if I'm

• 45:04Lewis Howes?

  Not a healthy need.

• 45:05Matthew Hussey?

  Right. But if I'm, like, if I crack jokes and make everyone laugh, and I know I can do that, then it meets a need for me. It's control. I know that I can control the room through making people laugh. Now, it also might be a barrier to connection in situations where sincerity is called for. And we never get deep because I'm always making jokes. But if I stop joking, And I say, I'm gonna try and create a deeper connection and that means I'm gonna pull back from the sarcasm, let's say.

• 45:35Matthew Hussey?

  I've taken away my own most practiced sharpened weapon. And I may not know how to operate in this new territory. I now may find myself almost like a toddler in conversation going, I don't know how to play this game.

• 45:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:50Matthew Hussey?

  I don't know how I'm, how to connect with people when I'm not being funny. And it requires us almost to get worse before we get better. To feel like we're taking a step backwards before we take a step forwards. The step forwards might ultimately be a far healthier relationship or a far better relationship than anything we've ever experienced. But we might have to go, almost like go back to like learning how to walk again in an area and give up that power we're used to feeling so that we can have something much more rewarding on the other side of it.

• 46:25Lewis Howes?

  Where do you feel like people have the happiest relationships in the world that you've experienced? Or at least they say they do? And what do they have in common in those places where they're the, not that everything's gonna be perfect, but where are they the happiest?

• 46:42Esther Perel?

  So, that's a very interesting question. And by the way, I didn't answer the question about people dating who wanna be in a relationship.

• 46:48Lewis Howes?

  We can get back to that, yes. Don't leave us out.

• 46:52Esther Perel?

  Didn't forget you. I don't know that it's geographic.

• 46:56Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 46:57Esther Perel?

  In places where the community is really strong, which a lot of people come here from countries where you, you know, at the heart of your life is this community, extended family and all of that. You get support, you get a lot of clarity, but you often get very little freedom, which is why so many people come to America. You know, and to New York to get that freedom. In places like in New York, where or in very individualistic places, where at the heart of the relationship is not the community, but the individual in search of a community. You have unprecedented freedom.

• 47:41Esther Perel?

  We've never been more free and we've never been more alone. So I don't know a place on the planet where we are more happy. The places where people have a lot of togetherness, people often yearn for separateness, for freedom, for autonomy.

• 47:55Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting.

• 47:56Esther Perel?

  The places where people have a lot of individuality and freedom, they yearn for more connection. They yearn to not feel modern loneliness, which kind of masks itself as hyper-connectivity. You can have a thousand virtual friends and no one to feed your cat, no one to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy. That's what we understood in the pandemic. God forbid somebody to pick you up at the airport. Friends and friendship is not the same. So I don't know places where people are more happy geographically. What makes people more happy is to feel that they matter, that people care about them even when they don't see them, that they take them with them, inside of them, that their relationships are meaningful, nurturing,

• 48:41Esther Perel?

  that they don't judge them and that they also don't ignore them. So it's this kind of nice flexibility between, you know, you're there for me, but you're not on the condition that I do what you want.

• 48:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 48:57Esther Perel?

  And I have the freedom, but not that you can cancel an hour before dinner, because these days, who cares? Which happens a lot in this town, case in point.

• 49:08Lewis Howes?

  Of course, yeah.

• 49:09Esther Perel?

  You know, so this is freedom too, like the freedom to think, do I have better? Is there a better deal for me tonight? You know, is there... So, and this is also freedom, is that I'm so important that I no longer think about how this is gonna affect you, that you may have cooked a whole meal and I just at 7 o'clock tell you that I won't show up at 8. That makes people feel...

• 49:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, lack of respect.

• 49:35Esther Perel?

  What makes us happy is meaning, creativity, flexibility and good laughter.

• 49:43Lewis Howes?

  Good laughter?

• 49:43Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 49:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So it's...

• 49:47Lewis Howes?

  So it's having the community with flexibility.

• 49:50Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 49:51Lewis Howes?

  Where it's not like you have to do what I tell you to do, or otherwise we're not gonna love you.

• 49:54Esther Perel?

  Which is why people have family of choice. People create today new communities. People pursue polyamory as a form of community building. I mean, there's a lot of iterations of how to build community.

• 50:06Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 50:07Esther Perel?

  But it doesn't have to be always the people that you grew up with.

• 50:11Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 50:11Esther Perel?

  Because they're not always your best community either.

• 50:14Lewis Howes?

  Sure. And what about the single people who have maybe struggled in previous relationships? Or who maybe took time for themselves, but now they want to attract and create a healthy relationship? How can they do the work for themselves so that they can really see when a person is in front of them that, "Oh, this is a healthy human being. Let me explore this." And not just get into old, similar patterns?

• 50:37Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 50:41Esther Perel?

  I tend to not like, first of all, the concept of single and coupled. Because today you're single and tomorrow you're not. And today you're coupled and tomorrow you're single. There's a lot, much more fluidity these days. But what I do know is this. If I... We live with belief systems. Relationships are stories. Everyone here has a story about your relationship. And we sometimes hold on to our stories so tightly that we confuse them with the truth. If I say there are no good men out there. If I say all people are out to get you. If I say I'm a pathological pleaser. If I say people have never cared about me properly.

• 51:24Esther Perel?

  I... These stories become belief systems that become a part of my confirmation bias. And when we have confirmation bias, it means that I'm now going to look at you and see to what extent this is gonna reinforce my belief. And then I'm gonna disregard evidence of the rest. So, check your assumptions. That's the first thing on the chain. What are your fundamental beliefs with which you enter relationships? And to what extent do you find yourself busy proving that they're true? Which doesn't serve you much.

• 51:59Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 52:00Esther Perel?

  Number one. Number two.

• 52:05Esther Perel?

  When you go out on a date, don't turn them into job interviews.

• 52:10Esther Perel?

  They've never seen something less interesting. I mean, people ask questions and then they look to see if they have butterflies. How can that work? It's the most dull, dull kind of encounter. This weird thing that I see has happened. But you go out to date, as this is if you get a date. You know, because there are that other experiences. And then you have to come back to your life to tell them if you won the lottery or not. And you come back with your shame or with your emptiness. It's dreadful. You know, there was something useful in the other model, the old model. You date, you meet somebody, you bring them to your life. You meet them with your friends. You'll have a thousand data points.

• 52:54Esther Perel?

  Far more interesting than sitting in some noisy bar and trying to ask questions. And this integration, if the date doesn't work, the date is gone. And the friends are still here and you continue your life.

• 53:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 53:07Esther Perel?

  So, this is not about the building of the relationship, but it's about the dating itself. The next thing is that we have a thing in relationships that's very interesting. It's called fundamental attribution error.

• 53:19Lewis Howes?

  Fundamental what?

• 53:20Esther Perel?

  Attribution error.

• 53:22Lewis Howes?

  Fundamental attribution error.

• 53:24Esther Perel?

  Yeah, goes like this. I am complicated and complex, you are simple.

• 53:31Esther Perel?

  When you come late, it's because you don't care.

• 53:34Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 53:35Esther Perel?

  When I come late, it's because there were circumstances in my life to explain why I am late. Mine is circumstantial. Yours is characterological.

• 53:47Lewis Howes?

  You don't care about me.

• 53:48Esther Perel?

  You're just a slob. You're just a this. You're just a that. You know, it's a fantastic way we have to organize the world. So that is one of those nasty things that really make relationships not thrive.

• 54:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 54:02Esther Perel?

  You know, name-calling the other person, the whole thing. And then I'll ask you one other one that I think is really crucial. When you fight, because fighting is a major piece of relationship. It's intrinsic. Conflict is part of love and relationships, all relationships. But don't think that what matters is what you're fighting about. But always ask yourself, what is it that I'm fighting for?

• 54:26Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 54:28Esther Perel?

  What people fight for when they fight is usually three things. You fight for care and closeness. You fight for respect and recognition and you fight for power and control. Who makes the decisions? Whose priorities matter more? Care and power and control. Care and closeness, do you have my back? Can I trust you? And respect and recognition, can you value me? Most fights you will find are about one of those three things. But that's not what we say. What we say is, why did you leave your shoes once again? In my, in my, in my tour,

• 55:11Esther Perel?

  I have this, this couple and they talk, they fight, they fight about the cat closet, the litter, the cat box, the, you know. And I'm thinking, seriously? We're gonna talk here about cat litter? I mean, this is an important session. And then I understand that when she says, why didn't you close the closet? It has nothing to do with the closet. It has to do with his father, who told him all the time what to do, who stood with his foot on his neck, who never let him breathe. And this guy grew up saying, nobody's gonna be the boss of me. This is what he's saying when he says, why shall I close the closet? That's power and control.

• 55:45Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 55:45Esther Perel?

  And then she grew up all alone, taking care of the whole family. Really miserable situation. And when he says, "Why shall I close the closet?" You close the closet. What does she hear? "I'm gonna be alone for the rest of my life. I've always had to do it for everybody. I took care of everyone and this is gonna continue?" No. You know, this is the underlying thing. But people will get so caught in the closet and the cat litter, it's phenomenal.

• 56:19Lewis Howes?

  This is why, uh...

• 56:22Esther Perel?

  Do you get, this is the, what are you fighting for?

• 56:25Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 56:26Esther Perel?

  Ask yourself that, it will shorten your therapy hours by many.

• 56:30Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  This is why, uh, me and Martha have one of the electronic robo-cat cleaning litters. So no one has to clean the litter, yeah. It self-cleans, it's amazing.

• 56:44Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, these days we trust our robots more than our partners.

• 56:47Lewis Howes?

  I know, right? It's amazing. The cat robot, you guys know what I'm talking about? You guys got one? Yeah, those are good, right? No one's gotta clean it, it's self-cleaning. They don't have that for dogs, you just gotta walk them still, you know, so...

• 57:00Lewis Howes?

  I wanna ask you a, we got a few minutes left with Esther and I wanna ask you a personal question. I always like to do this with you. We'll see if you wanna receive it or not, but, um... You've done a lot of work coaching others for a long time. And you've got amazing podcasts. Your podcast, "Where Should We Begin?" is incredible. I don't know if anyone's ever heard this. "Where Should We Begin?" is incredible. You've got amazing books, which we have your books out in the bookstore. If people haven't gotten them yet, we've got your books here. You've got this, uh, this game that'll help you. "Where Should We Begin?" Anyone have this yet? "Where Should We Begin?" This is an amazing game of stories by Esther Perel, where you can really connect with your partner on ideas and things like that. You've got a Rosas course as well.

• 57:45Esther Perel?

  Coming out this week.

• 57:46Lewis Howes?

  We'll have a link for you guys, we'll show you that in a second. For anyone that wants to be more sexually connected in that playful way, you'll be able to tap into that. But I'm curious, with all the research and all the work you've done to help others, what in the last five years? Have you received for yourself or had to overcome personally in intimacy, relationships? Again, you help and serve so many people, but sometimes as the coach, you don't get the opportunity to always self-reflect and get coached and work through the things personally. I'm curious, is there anything in the last five years that you've seen a breakthrough personally with your life?

• 58:27Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, and half of me was so excited I have an answer and half of me wished I didn't have to have an answer.

• 58:36Esther Perel?

  But you'll hear why. So, basically two years, about, when did we go to Australia? Two years ago, two and a half years ago, I came to L.A. on November 1st. I was with my husband and we were on our way to New Zealand. I was starting a whole tour. My kids were already waiting for us there and basically we entered the doctor's office and the doctor said, "You ain't going on any plane. You're not flying. You have 10% kidney function left."

• 59:07Lewis Howes?

  Wow, for you?

• 59:09Esther Perel?

  For him.

• 59:09Lewis Howes?

  For him, wow.

• 59:10Esther Perel?

  For him. And we knew he had kidney issues, but not that bad, not that bad. That meant, and you know, in the United States, there are no organs because the system is set up that if you want to be a donor, you have to specify it on your driver's license. In Belgium, where I'm from, everybody is a donor unless you specify on your driver's license that you don't want to be a donor. So, think about that because it really, it saves lives. But now I needed to find a kidney.

• 59:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 59:44Esther Perel?

  And that meant I needed to let people help me and I was at a mercy. So, I began to talk to small groups of friends, just grew the circle every time a little bit. Who would like to donate a kidney? I'm not a match. My son is not a match. My other son was not going to be able to do. And it's an amazingly humble, you know, experience to, to, I was, I had no problem asking, I have to say. I genuinely have no problem asking for help. I am not the person who helps others but can't ask for myself. I am a help.

• 1:00:25Lewis Howes?

  You don't gingerly do the eroticism with asking for help. Yeah, you're not playing...

• 1:00:30Esther Perel?

  Exactly.

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  You're like, "Give me the help, let's go."

• 1:00:33Esther Perel?

  And I got a point where we had ten people, ten people who were willing to donate, but one match.

• 1:00:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:41Esther Perel?

  And anyway, the match came through. It was our friend. We brought her over from Europe. We created this whole ritual with friends in my house, where the night before they went in, where instead of it just being an organ donation, we turned it into a sacred gift.

• 1:00:57Lewis Howes?

  Holy...

• 1:00:58Esther Perel?

  We sat in a circle and talked about, what is our experience in life about giving and receiving? We brought them together the next day. And then for the next months, while they were recovering, basically I had all our friends. This one took them to the hospital every morning at seven. This one cooked. This one this, this one that. And here's the interesting thing. I live with an expert on community resilience. His work, his lifelong work, is about collective trauma and community resilience, but he had never experienced it himself in action.

• 1:01:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:01:32Esther Perel?

  So, this is my story.

• 1:01:34Lewis Howes?

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:01:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh. That's beautiful.

• 1:01:40Esther Perel?

  I have not yet told this in public.

• 1:01:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's beautiful.

• 1:01:44Esther Perel?

  This is my first.

• 1:01:44Lewis Howes?

  And what has been the breakthrough, the lesson for you two and a half years later now?

• 1:01:49Esther Perel?

  So here's the interesting thing. There is a moment that is a lesson. At one point, early on, I said, I talked to so and so, and they said we should go see the doctor so and so, which we're going to see now in L.A. And he said, "Why do you talk about this with people? I'm entitled to my privacy." "Any of you who are in this room who are that person." And I said, "But come on. It's because I talked to these people that I got this name, that I now have this appointment, that this is how it works, community." I mean, do you think we're just gonna sit here and find a doctor who's gonna see us in less than six months? That's what I meant by "I talk." And it's about overcoming your shame and thinking that privacy is really nice, but you will die in privacy.

• 1:02:33Esther Perel?

  And, you know, and that you... If you don't wanna do it, that's okay, but let the people around you do it for you.

• 1:02:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's beautiful. That's amazing.

• 1:02:44Lewis Howes?

  And how is he doing now?

• 1:02:46Esther Perel?

  He's great.

• 1:02:47Lewis Howes?

  He's great.

• 1:02:47Esther Perel?

  It's like, you know, a new life. It's impressive. I mean, you know, most surgeries take things out. This one just puts something in.

• 1:02:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's incredible. And what was the biggest lesson for the donor?

• 1:03:03Esther Perel?

  I mean, the donor, it's a... What you experience is you feel like you've given life to someone. And by the way, you live perfectly well with one kidney. So, it's really... The most important moment about the donor is that at Mount Sinai, they have every year a gathering of the donors, liver donors, kidney donors. And you're in a room with these people. We happen to know ours, but all of the other people, sometimes it's strangers, who just one day appear like angels. And you watch these people, these unsung heroes, and you just shut the [bleep] up, because, you know... I don't know if I would do it. This is the thing. Would I have done this? Have I known people? Have I heard and I never responded?

• 1:03:48Esther Perel?

  Like, it's so easy, you know, to think, "Yeah." But no, no. And I watched these people and I just bawled.

• 1:03:56Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's a beautiful experience. I'm so glad you shared that. Thank you for sharing that.

• 1:04:02Esther Perel?

  I have a question for you.

• 1:04:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, uh-oh.

• 1:04:08Esther Perel?

  No, because...

• 1:04:09Lewis Howes?

  I'm pretty open.

• 1:04:09Esther Perel?

  Because the last time we met, you were just in the engagement, going to therapy, working on... And here you are, you know...

• 1:04:21Esther Perel?

  What's the... You know, you said, "I worked on myself," or "we have worked together." But what's the part of yourself that you discovered? That you didn't know existed?

• 1:04:37Esther Perel?

  I have another one afterwards.

• 1:04:51Esther Perel?

  Is that Martha whispering to you?

• 1:04:53Lewis Howes?

  The part of me, I'm just trying to be present with the whole experience. Part of me I've discovered...

• 1:05:00Lewis Howes?

  That the part of me I've discovered that I knew it didn't exist.

• 1:05:02Esther Perel?

  That I didn't know existed. The thing that has come out of me that surprises even me.

• 1:05:14Lewis Howes?

  I think that I am deserving of incredible love. That's the thing I just tell everybody.

• 1:05:38Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 1:05:39Lewis Howes?

  And I think it's been a journey of receiving it. I love you, Mike! Thank you. I love you, Mike! But I feel like, for most of my life, and I don't know if anyone can relate, it was about, I felt loved by people, but I also, I think the traumas outweighed the memories of the love. So the traumas were bigger memories of fear, anxiety, and pain, and like, you know, than you're safe, you're loved, you're free. And it's not like there was one person or people, it was just a series of events over

• 1:06:22Lewis Howes?

  time, of all the different series of events. You know, sexual abuse is one of the first memories I have as a human being. And again, that kind of imprints you until you reprogram it, until you create new meaning with it and allow it to, and say, "How can I use this for good, right? And how can I, this doesn't define me, it's a thing that happened, and I feel at peace about it." But as a child, you know, that was there, you know, my parents had their struggles. They just really struggled. My dad was a difficult human being, as much as I loved him, he was very difficult and emotionally up and down. So there was not emotional stability from him. So therefore, there was challenge with them.

• 1:07:07Lewis Howes?

  And my brother was in prison for four and a half years when I was eight years old. So there was just shame and trauma within the family dynamic that, oh, my older brother, who's my hero, is in prison. I love him, is he a bad guy? Is he a good guy? I feel like he's a good guy. Why is he here? Every weekend, we would go for hours in the visiting room and be around 20, 30 convicts and their families. Every week for four and a half years. And so there's traumas there. It's just the picking on, the bullying, the being dyslexic, not being able to read, unable to speak in front of an audience without being terrified, just all the series of events. I focused more on the traumas than the love. There was a lot of love, but I couldn't feel them.

• 1:07:49Lewis Howes?

  And so, learning how to regulate my nervous system and my heart and my body and learn how to breathe with all of it. Chaos of the world, relationship challenges from the past, and learning how to say, oh, I am safe, no matter what's happening around me. Whether I'm going through a disagreement, it doesn't mean my life is at risk. Whether someone doesn't like me, it doesn't mean I have to give in to what they're requesting. You know, if I don't feel good right now, that's okay. I know I can transform it and feel good tomorrow. So, learning the skills, learning the tools, and doing the deeper healing work has allowed me to feel loved.

• 1:08:30Lewis Howes?

  And really, I think one of the biggest fears was I lacked the courage to end relationships so I would stay for way longer than I knew intuitively I shouldn't be in this. But I was afraid to be alone.

• 1:08:45Lewis Howes?

  I didn't know how to fully be alone and love myself alone. And I really learned how to do that to where I don't feel like I have to give in to anyone. I'm like, I love myself if I'm alone and I know that God will provide me in the right direction with what I need. It's not what I want, but I know I'll be provided that.

• 1:09:09Lewis Howes?

  And having that clarity and that inner peace of I'm gonna be okay, no matter what happens, lets me be free to be me and feel loved. I can give myself love and I can receive it from others also. Even if I'm not getting it from others in a moment, if I need it, I know how to give it to me. In a, you know, in a spiritual way, not like a selfish, oh, I'm loving myself way. And so I think learning that process while healing and creating meaning from all these memories of the past, it just gives me a lot of peace and freedom. And I never had that until really the last four years, so.

• 1:09:52Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 1:09:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course, thank you.

• 1:10:00Esther Perel?

  I think that everything you just said is part of your question. It's part of the answer to the question, you know, how does one prepare oneself to be in a relationship? You know, there's often a pull in a relationship between two polarities. The fear of losing the other and the fear of losing oneself.

• 1:10:21Lewis Howes?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:10:23Esther Perel?

  Fear of abandonment and the fear of suffocation.

• 1:10:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:10:26Esther Perel?

  I will leave, I will not leave you, but I will lose myself.

• 1:10:31Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:32Esther Perel?

  In order not to be alone.

• 1:10:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:10:35Esther Perel?

  Or the reverse is I leave you all the time. I don't stick around anywhere because I'm afraid that if I hang one more day, I'm gonna get trapped.

• 1:10:44Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us. Let's figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:11:28Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.