Trump Meets Zelensky in the Vatican & India vs Pakistan & Iran Negotiations round 3

the boys talk about the continued ukraine negotiations, the flare up of tensions in Kashmir, and the 3rd round of talk with the US and Iran. New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Find Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ Lobo Institute ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Twitter ⬇️ https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCA LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Mick’s publications ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/ Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 Substack ⬇️ https://amilburn.substack.com/ Andy’s book ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.soci Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:17Speaker 02

  Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. I'm here with Mick Mulroy, Jason Lyons and myself, Demetri Koltakos. Lot cooking as usual. That's gonna be my line, I'm gonna make merch that says a lot cooking.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  First and foremost, Ukraine, Russia. A couple of days ago. It's been more than a couple of days when Russia hit Kiev with a big ballistic missile attack. That I think killed up to, I think to nine or 10 people. Last time I checked, I'm sure it's probably gone up since then.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Lot of cooking too. Wickoff met with Vladimir Putin yesterday at the Kremlin. Old friends, it looked like old friends meeting up again.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  And today, obviously at the Pope's funeral afterwards, when they cleared out the hall, there's pictures coming out of President Trump and President Zelensky sitting down having a powwow about what comes next, I guess.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  So, let's kick off Mick. Thoughts, comments?

• 2:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I mean, when it comes to the actual proposal,

• 2:27Speaker 03

  it's important to point out that Ukraine has made it clear for essentially any time they've discussed a potential ceasefire, that they're not going to give up permanently any part of their territory to include Crimea, right? So Crimea was illegally occupied and seized in 2014. The original proposal, which I just referred as the Kellogg proposal, simply froze the lines, right? So it didn't say that you have to give up territory. It simply asked Ukraine to acknowledge they couldn't take it back militarily. That I think is something more in line with what Ukraine can agree to.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  But just to actually give Russia, the aggressor, part of your territory, not only would be bad for Ukraine, it'd be bad for anybody that wants to keep their territory if they're next to a country that's strong enough to take it. Sets it sets the wrong example. I think it's brother Andy Milburn, right?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Brother Andy Milburn coming in just on time, saying that.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  He heard me talking about Ukraine and.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, he jumped in. Andy, what's up, man? I'm gonna leave this all in. We're not starting over.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  No, we can't hear you.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  I sound mute.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  What's up, dude?

• 3:48Speaker 03

  You missed me permanently on mute.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wish.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Andy Milburn, of course. Welcome to the show. We were just talking about updating everybody on what's going on with Ukraine negotiations and.

• 4:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I was talking about the proposal, Andy, that the US put out there. So not accepting that Crimea would be permanently part of Russia is something that Ukraine has said from the beginning. And it's important to point out that Secretary Rubio, then Senator Rubio, actually tried to get legislation that the US would never recognize Crimea as Russia. So it's kind of surprising, it surprised many that that would be something that he would now propose that Ukraine just accept. So it was a very, I would say, pro-Russia position and something that I think should have been avoided.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  We should have essentially asked for a ceasefire like the United States did. I'm important to point that out. We asked for a 30-day ceasefire. Ukraine accepted it. Russia rejected it. That's when you should start talking negotiations. We should have the ceasefire first. Russia not only rejected it, but stepped up attacks. Yeah, stepped up attacks, actually. On on civilian target, by the way. That's right. So 60 missiles that I think President Zelensky saying come from North Korea. So now, you know, the Ukrainians are not only fighting a country much larger than them. They're fighting Iranian drones, North Korean soldiers, North Korean missiles. And apparently, at least there's some reports that Chinese are showing up on the battle space.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  So I do think, I don't think the United States should obviously walk away. I don't even know where we're talking about that. We need to be, I think,

• 5:39Speaker 03

  reinforcing Ukraine to make Russia want to come to the negotiation table. Right now, they don't. And to the point of President Trump's statement that Russia's going to take it in three years. If Russia could have could take it, they would have taken it already. And if they think they could take it in three years, they wouldn't agree to a ceasefire. So obviously, the fact that they're talking about it means that they have not know that they've taken 800,000 calories to take less than 20% of Ukrainian territory. And to be frank, if we would have been more forthright in our support to Ukraine, in other words, supporting them to win, not just survive, I don't think they would have been able to take that. So I would, I would advocate for a different tack, which is

• 6:24Speaker 03

  impose secondary sanctions on the Russian energy, which means India and China couldn't purchase Russian energy. Release the funds that's been seized in Europe, particularly Belgium. I think it was like 325 billion dollars worth of Russian assets. So Ukraine can arm itself and then increase across the board to include US security assistance and obviously the Europeans for Ukraine.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Immediately. That would change, I think, the perspective of Russia, which is the only thing that's going to change the perspective of whether we get a ceasefire.

• 7:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, I mean, I agree 100%. I would go further. You know, we've talked about understanding Russian negotiating psychology, which has nothing to do with acknowledging dispensations. In other words, you start offering things to Russia, they don't take it as a quid pro quo. They take it as a sign of weakness. I mean, this has gone back to Soviet times. It's gone back to Yalta, you know, in Stalin's dealings with Roosevelt and Churchill. And, you know, Churchill, and I'm not just saying this because I'm British, recognizing grudgingly that they would have to offer up Poland.

• 7:44Speaker 04

  And Roosevelt being all in on that, saying, you know, hey, look, we've got to offer a dispensation because Uncle Joe has been fighting the Germans almost single-handedly, et cetera, et cetera. And we will get, you know, with the understanding that in some post-war era, Russia would pay us back with goodwill. I mean, look how that happened. And we're still making the mistake because we don't study history. Our administration doesn't study history. So I would go further and say, hey, either you come to the negotiating table, we're offering you Crimea, which by the way, honestly, the Ukrainians would acknowledge and would have acknowledged probably at an earlier

• 8:26Speaker 04

  stage in the war that Crimea is a done deal, you know, it'll belong to Russia.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think they should accept it as Russia. It's one thing to accept they can't take it militarily. If you just start saying, okay, well, it's yours now and the whole world recognizes it, then that just opens its legs.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  I agree 100%. I'm bespoke. So you acknowledge and say it's part of Russia. Now, now you're basically agreeing to my rights and whatever you seize is now yours. But we say, look, it's seized Ukrainian terrain, but we are, for the time being, are willing to concede it to your ownership. Okay? But you got to have a big stick with Russia. What is that big stick? What is Russia most scared of? Fast track to NATO for Ukraine. You break the ceasefire? Fast track, man. We're all in. And now not only have Sweden and Poland, I mean, sorry, Sweden and Finland joint, not only is Poland a much stronger nation than it was three years

• 9:27Speaker 04

  ago militarily, 4% of its GDP focused on on defense, but now you're going to have the the second largest and the most combat experienced military on, you know, on the on the good side within NATO. I mean, that is, that's what Russia fears most. Plus, all in on weapons, providing weapons to Ukraine. That means across the EU and the United States, piling them in, long range precision strike, go for it. Absolutely.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  No restrictions.

• 10:05Speaker 04

  155 millimeter rounds, flood them with them, you know, make the ratio equal between Ukrainians and Russians. I mean, that is what the Russians are really afraid of. And that is the only thing that will get them to negotiate. I mean, the incredible naivety that we've shown so far, and Putin is laughing at us. What has he done? What has he done since the, you know, the Oval Office debacle with Zelensky? Putin has just gone ahead and upped the ante. And he is, he's laughing. He's, he's saying, I've got the US wrapped around my finger. Everyone knows this. Everyone sees it. We're the laughing stock of Europe and of, you know, and throughout Russia, by the way. It's time to acknowledge that.

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• 14:29Speaker 02

  I had a question. Who holds the purse drinks to that 325 bill that's frozen? And why aren't they releasing it to get buy more weapons?

• 14:37Speaker 03

  I think it's, it's, it's the government, because they, of course, monitor the banks and have control over the banks. Could be wrong. So I don't know for sure. But that, because it's talked about so much, they clearly have the ability, well, it's already frozen, but they clearly have the ability to release it. And if they do that, I mean, there could be consequences. But there should be consequences to, you know, invading a neighboring country.

• 15:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  Right? So that's what that would be. That would be my argument. And I don't think, I don't think, especially if you use it in defense, although I wouldn't just have it go to defense. But I mean, they could purchase all the air and missile defense systems available in the world with that stuff.

• 15:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Right? So if Russia can't actually hit them, then this war is is gonna turn for Russia. Let's face it, they're actually attacking, like Andy said, when he started, they're attacking civilians. Right? They're terrorists. They're a terrorist state. They go deliberately after civilians and and and kill women and children. So I don't know why we wouldn't have already done that. I don't know what we're waiting for. And I think it should be done immediately if it can. I don't know. The United States needs to agree with with it at all. I think Europe, Europe could actually do it.

• 15:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's, that's actually a really good point. You know, we've hounded Europe.

• 16:06Speaker 04

  The time again about stepping up to the plate as far as expenditure. And look, there's some justification in that. But the bottom line is, as we've explained over and over again, this shows since the Marshall Plan, the defense of Europe hasn't been about financial transactions. It's about being an implicit, implicit understanding that European nations are the battleground. And the United States provides unlimited funding, all right, to to fight that fight in Europe, not not nearer to our own shores. All right. In defense, in defense, not only of Europe, but our own national interests, for Christ's sake. That is why we're doing it. It's not about quid pro quo on money. We're the richest nation on earth. Well, we used to be before we started tariffing everyone. But.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Andy's coming in, Andy's coming in hot today, and I love it. I love it.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Misstapping our GDP, not on defense of NATO, but because of this, this ridiculous policy of imposing tariffs around the world. And other countries are going to find go rounds. They're initially going to be hit economically, but ultimately, the country that's going to suffer most economically is us. So now.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  We've advocated our national interests and we've advocated our economic standing in the world. So what do we have left? Well, we've got the Gulf of America, I've got to admit, and that's pretty cool. I mean, you know, but you know what? It is fired up. Something different.

• 17:33Speaker 04

  No, I mean, is anything of that I've incorrect? No. And that's rhetorical question, guys, you're supposed to say no, Andy, you're a hundred percent right.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  I'm sure somebody listening to us. I've stopped going on social media because, you know, I had no idea that I had so many ignorant friends. Present company accepted, you know, and all this talk about, oh, my God, we, oh, yeah, we just avoided World War III. Putin would have escalated, like, for Christ's sake, he's been threatening to escalate since day one. He's been threatening to escalate since 2014. Guess what? If he thought he could get away with escalating, he wouldn't have fucking escalated. Because he doesn't give a shit, right? You name it, tactical nukes, whatever, if he thinks he can get away with it and achieve the same through that. Do you think he's held back by any social compunction, by any empathy? No, not at all.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  He will escalate and escalate, but he hasn't because he is afraid. But unfortunately, he's becoming less and less afraid, so the chances of escalation are greater. And as you know, listen, the threat, this fear of escalation goes way back. It's not specific to this administration. It goes all the way back to the Obama administration in 2014. We've been really concerned as Putin does things, said, oh, my God, if we piss him off, he's going to do something worse. What the fuck worse could he do, you know? I mean, OK, the reason why he's not using tactical nukes, I bet you is because someone, well, I know that he was messaged.

• 19:10Speaker 04

  That hey, if you do, that's gonna be a really, really bad idea for you. Uh, because guess what? NATO's got plenty of nukes too. You know, and, and mutually assured destruction or mutually assured destruction even confined to the battlefield is, is not, you know, it's not passe. It's something that, that he still recognizes. And that's something that we should continuously remind him of. Why, why wouldn't if he uses tactical nukes? Why would we not do the same? Listen to me. And I'm sounding like a hawk, but I mean, you know my-

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, you are.

• 19:46Speaker 04

  It's not, it's not my personal feelings about Russia. It isn't, you know, I mean, I felt this way before enduring a, a, a year of, of Russian artillery and drones. I mean, it's, it, it's just because I read history.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Um, why don't we do secondary sanctions on, um, Russian oil to India and China? What's stopping us there?

• 20:11Speaker 03

  We could. President Trump has said, said that he's considering it. Um, perhaps if we go back to the original plan, uh, which is not actually acknowledging that Crimea is Russia. Uh, freezing the lines, having a European security element go in, which in a way is a security guarantee, right? You have to attack European forces to start the war again. I mean, think about it, if, if, if President Putin will not accept it, that's because he intends to restart the war. Right? I mean, that's, that's clear. Um, I think if we went back to that and they wouldn't accept it, then we, we start amping it up.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Secondary sanctions, Russia, you know, Senator McCain used to call Russia an army with a gas station. That's what they got. That's all they got. They just have oil, right? So they don't have an economy other than that. And if they can't sell it or find a way to sell it, then they can't function and essentially can't fuel their war machine. So I don't, I think it's, it's something that we should go back to the original plan, not the one that, um, Special Envoy Witkov presented, but the one that Special Envoy Kellogg, like General Kellogg, originally talked about. And I think that's something that's more in line, then it's up to the Ukrainian people, of course, this is our country. But I think that's a more, certainly more fair than the one that was actually proposed last week or this week.

• 21:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, bring Kelloward back for Christ's sake. What happened to him?

• 21:40Speaker 03

  He's still there. He's still there.

• 21:42Speaker 04

  You know, I mean, he, he understands Russia.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's why the Russians said, don't lie. We don't want him negotiating, which they, how, why the fuck are they choosing who negotiates and what?

• 21:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that makes him perfect. Like, okay, well, now you've been sure that he's gonna be.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Right. I'm gonna make sure he's in the center fucking table.

• 22:01Speaker 04

  Russia, Russia is a, you know, as Mick pointed out, Russia is a fucking paper tiger. Russia has been unable to invade a country one-fifth of its size with an army, one, an army one-seventh of its, of the size of Russia. Now, actually, it was less than that at the outset of the war. Totally unable to do it. We, even with, even with tactical surprise on its side, even with all the mistakes that Ukrainians made at the outset of the war by not bolstering their defenses. All of those things caught in a relatively biased surprise. The Ukrainians still managed to defend that country, confine Russian advances to one-twentieth of its territory, and inflict extraordinary losses on the Russian military machine.

• 22:47Speaker 04

  What are we afraid of as the United States? Why are we kowtowing to Russia? I just don't understand. You know, you talk about, you talk about patriotism. You've got all these so-called patriots who are just like terrified of Russia. I mean, it's, it's incredible. Yeah, absolutely. Bring McCain back. What, what happened? What happened to the, you know, the, the strength of, of the Republican Senate? You know, that they, those who really understood Russia for what it is.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  I need more Reagan Republicans, that's for sure.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, good point. Yeah, I mean, you know, that's going back to, to Reagan. Reagan understood, uh, understood negotiating.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Andy, I remember an episode you did with us on Team Hass and you mentioned like the big reason why Russia is hitting a wall in Ukraine is because they didn't do enough like they didn't modernize their forces after Georgia in 08.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, there were a series of reforms, but basically the effects of those reforms were largely swallowed in corruption. You know, a huge amount of money was funneled into the army. There were a lot of, you know, in American terms, it briefed well, but the results were were minimal. And you know, a lot has been talked about this, but across the board from you know, a lot of money was spent on improving weapon systems or acquiring new weapon systems. But when it came to when it came to structure, when it came to training, when it came to recruiting, selection, when it came to culture within the Russian army, nothing changed.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  You know, it still remained the same. I mean, there's many things, you know, you can talk about how the motorized rifle battalion was staffed. I mean, in practice, with far too many ground pounders to man, their IFEs and their APCs all the way through to the methodology of recruiting. So you could buy your way out of being inducted into the Russian army. I mean, all the way up to the war and even now you can do that. And the Russian, going into the Russian military was regarded as a fate only for losers, for those who couldn't avoid anything else. So they had very low quality of recruits. They didn't have enough recruits. They didn't train them well enough.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  And when they were reported to their units, they, you know, they suffered from appalling discipline. Units that were understaffed, no maintenance.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  You name it, when all the, all the, the problems went on and on.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  And so, none of the endemic problems that were exhibited in Georgia were, were really fixed. If anything, they, they became worse. Now, Russia, the Russian military, it's fair to say, is a learning organization to some extent. So they have, you know, they've learnt a fair amount and they are formidable now when it comes to electronic warfare. They're formidable when it comes to use of drones. They are far ahead of the United States military in, in that regard. But they still, they still are a third-rate army. You know, if you, when you talk about brigade-level leadership and above, you look about how their attacks are planned.

• 26:14Speaker 04

  When I was in Barmut, you know, consistently, when the Ukrainian, the R-adjacent Ukrainian units took prisoners in, in the assault, even, even Wagner assault units, right? They, they had no idea really what their objectives were. They were following azimuths, you know, they, many of them were aggressive fighters. They had, felt they had nothing to lose. But, but in the end, small, you know, their, their small unit, or their leadership, small unit level up and their training was, was appalling. I mean ironically, you know, the things, when you look at their tactics now on the battlefield,

• 26:57Speaker 04

  they've learnt, but they've learnt very, very painfully. And, and you look now at their small-unit tactics, where they are successful and they have adopted many of the kind of Ukrainian tactics before. An assault, they will use small units mounted on quad bikes or motorcycles, heavily, you know, heavily equipped with drones to go in and probe Ukrainian lines and draw fire and find gaps, you know, it's reconnaissance pool. And these are, you know, more, the more highly-trained soldiers. And then, but then, once they've identified gaps in Ukrainian line, it gets back to their old tactics of just mass pouring soldiers into these, these assaults, which incur massive amount of casualties.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  And then they overrun Ukrainian positions, as they're trying to do again now, for instance, vicinity of Solidar.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  You you will see that they are still taking huge number of casualties because their commanders lack the tactical prowess, they lack imagination.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, well said. What a great question by me, by the way. Um. Uh, anything else on this? Where do you see this going? I know people are guffawing or like and freaking out over like Trump and Zelensky meeting at the Vatican after the Pope's funeral, like something's gonna actually happen and Trump somehow gonna change his mind. Um, any thoughts till we uh, before we move on?

• 28:27Speaker 03

  It's better that they met than they didn't meet, that's for sure. Uh, hopefully without the, you know, the audience of cameras and other people that they were able to talk about what Ukraine is willing to accept and what they need the US to push for. Hopefully that's what they they discussed and and that we go forward with that plan. And stop talking about.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  You know, basically everything that Russia would have put together minus, you know, dismantling the Ukrainian military was was in their proposal. And that was, it was, I mean, it's not just Russia's tactics, they go in with extreme requirements um, to start a negotiation. I mean, that's a, that's a common tactic. We should have just summarily dismissed them and then talked about something that was more reasonable. And and and Ukraine has has a counterproposal with Europe, which, you know, uh, calls for a cessation of hostilities, uh, the the withdrawal of Russian forces, of course, because they're gonna be as

• 29:32Speaker 03

  is uh, forthright as they can, and then, of course, compensation or uh, retribution for all the damage that they've caused. And and I think they're gonna agree to this uh, rare earth minerals deal with the United States. I would hope uh, that that would be an investment by the United States, gonna cost billions of dollars to even set it up to get this material out of the ground. That they could be beneficial to both the United States and Ukraine. I don't think that's a bad thing, but we're gonna have to reset the conversation because and potentially get, you know, Senator or Secretary Rubio more directly involved, obviously, as you could tell from me and Andy's comments.

• 30:17Speaker 03

  General Kellogg, who knows Russia and I don't think is confused by them.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, on a, still on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, I was just trying to look up the name of the senior former CIA official whose son Michael Gloss was just killed in Ukraine fighting for the Russians.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's the digital.

• 30:46Speaker 04

  I, I think you mentioned, yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  I think, I don't remember her. I think the same last name and she's the deputy for like digital. I don't know if Jason knows.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  She's a former CIA employee.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  I think she's current.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Oh geez.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's, he was fighting for the Russians, but here's the curious thing about it. If you look at his background, he's a, you know, he's a lefty. I mean, he was pro Palestinian, he was, uh, he, he was very vocal about left wing causes and it, and it brings to mind again, this very confused approach to policy in the United States of, of the attitude towards Russia from the left and the right. Okay. Of, of, of commiserating with Russia or aligning with Russia. I mean, you know, we've seen, we've already talked about on, you know, the, the right of American politics, how they kind of eulogize the Russians, but it's fair to say on the left of American politics, the same thing, and it's just so bizarre.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  I think the problem with far left, like guys who are people are far left is like they're just tankies. They're just anti-American imperialism at any cost. That's why they kind of give China a pass, kind of give Russia a bit of a pass as well.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  They're pro-Russian imperialism.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  There's one country that's invading another country right now.

• 32:09Speaker 04

  I mean, let's get back, let's, let's get back to our favorite, you know, one of our favorite topics, uh, uh, Blumenthal, right? Sid, uh, not Sid, Max, Max Blumenthal, right?

• 32:21Speaker 04

  So think, you know, remember him. I mean, he's banging the drum on Palestinian cause and all these other things. And yet, you know, according to Washington Post article, is invited to invited to Russia to celebrate these various events. It was some, he's invited to Russia, I think it was like, what was it, the 70th anniversary of the founding of the Soviet Union, is that right? 70th or 80th anniversary. And he goes and he's, you know, it's an event attended by Putin, you know, and he's very, if you look at his postings, very, very pro-Russian, aside from, you know, him attacking me, of course. And that was his, you know, gray zone. The, and the gray zone website too, by the way, Washington Post uncovered,

• 33:07Speaker 04

  some dude, one of the founding members was taking money from the Iranians, right? So his, you know, again, it's just this weird confluence in, on the left wing politics of kaltowing again to Russia and, and these countries that are autocratic, I mean, beyond belief, you know, it's, so, you know, I'm not sure if this is just a comment about Blumenthal's personal ethics, which I think, you know, I don't think he has any. But also his just confused.

• 33:42Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 33:57Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 34:08Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a Point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

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• 35:01Speaker 07

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• 35:09Speaker 04

  Right?

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you get far enough out on the, on the fringes, it's like a circle. And it ends up in the census, right? Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 04

  I mean, in his case, you know, I mean, obviously he was, you know, according to the Washington Post, he was also, he was getting some things in return from the Russians. You know, so there was a personal calculus. There was a, and maybe it made him feel important, maybe a bit. I mean, it's just, you know, these people who pretend to be principled, pretend to have ideals. And yet are absolutely, absolutely proxies of adversaries to the United States. And that's what I find really quite concerning.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Listen, I'll be honest, I'm a bit of a lefty, right? And you see this.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Sorry, guys.

• 36:02Speaker 04

  It's about politics.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  No, but I, I notice like.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  You're an American idealist, right?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, of course.

• 36:09Speaker 04

  You know, so, so for some reason, when you hear the term patriot, you think right wing conservative.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  But my point is, no, it's not necessarily the case at all, nor it should be. It should be guys like maybe you, no, I mean, definitely you, you know, I mean, who, who have, who, who are, who care about American values.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  That's your thing, right?

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Like the thing that I've gotten like away from with like in terms of like some lefty commentators and stuff is like they're able to. Somehow defend places like China when it comes to the Uighurs or Tibet and stuff like that and like really downplay the fucked up shit that China does as well as Russia like the whole time like they this like some of the talking points like Crimea is part of Russia like bro no it's like I just don't understand how they could fucking where the rationale and logic comes from some with some of them that's why with the tankies I'm like

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Because if you stake your beliefs to your ego and you stake both of those things to a foreign the the policies of a foreign power then you are destined to have to support whatever that foreign power does that's really basically the the way this this broken chain of logic runs

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Yeah

• 37:25Speaker 04

  Where you are a Max Blumenthal or you are a I don't know think of someone on the you know on the far right they are

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Tim Poole like I mean Tim Poole is one of the guys who got money from uh one of the media companies where Russia was paying these guys to do pro Russian videos and stuff like that paying him like obscene amounts of money and stuff like that where and there's endless videos of like guys like that saying like Ukraine is not our friend like like really passionate like shitting on Ukraine and it's just it's just like dude I get it like Ukraine's got corruption issues like every other country for sure but they didn't invite any they didn't invade anybody they didn't invade anybody they got invaded so like what would you do in that same position this is a logic that's lost

• 38:16Speaker 02

  and I can't I don't abide by it I'm not with it

• 38:20Speaker 03

  Hey we'll gloss the bubble on our politics here you know I'm actually in Old Town so I used to had a priest friend that um he's there's a lot of Irish folks here He used to go to these, the ones around here at one time back in the eighties. He walked in there and he noticed a bunch of dudes standing around looking pretty stiff. And I walked past a booth and it was Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill. When he was president.

• 38:49Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  Sitting in an Irish pub, having a point, talking in a, if you're not familiar, Tip O'Neill was a Democratic leader of the House. Right. So, I mean, that used to be our politics and now we have people that are so far on the fringe are actually supporting our most significant, might be most dangerous adversary in Russia on both sides, which is just.

• 39:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, they, they regard across the aisle as being worse enemies than our actual foreign.

• 39:19Speaker 03

  Than our actual enemies.

• 39:21Speaker 04

  And you don't have to go that far back. Yeah. I mean, that's a famous example, isn't it? Reagan and Tip O'Neill, but there's, you know, McCain and Obama. I mean, uh, used to meet in, in the evenings to, to talk about stuff. You couldn't. You know, they fought a, a bitter presidential race against one another.

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 04

  Uh, and yet, um, had enough mutual respect. We both understood that, uh, that both of them had the interests of the United States at heart and we have certainly lost the bubble on that. He's speaking of which, Dee, and I know this is a bit of a digression, um, but on, on the other, uh, talk to us about the, uh, the former CIA guy that you entertained on the team house who is now a traitor. And that's question number one. Question number two, I don't, I don't agree with the idea now to change the name to the traitor house. Although it has a.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  Good. Well, because that never was on the table first and foremost.

• 40:21Speaker 07

  Uh, real quick, uh, I'm sorry, Andy, the woman's name, the, uh, that CIA official, her name is Julie Angalina. She was a deputy or is the deputy director for. Innovation.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  What a blow.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Terrible, yeah.

• 40:36Speaker 04

  Awfully, awfully sad story for the, for the parents.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 04

  And, and you know, death of a young man. I think he was only twenty years old, um, or twenty-two. Um, but, but so misled too, that, that he died in the service of Russia.

• 40:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, his father said that he, um, suffered from mental illness all his life. And he just kinda up and disappeared and ended up over there.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  Wow, awful story. Yeah. You know, the, the Russians are, they're, they're rolling anyone into the military. And you know, there's the stories, have you read the story about the, uh, the Indians who went to Moscow for a bachelor party? And, um, and ended up all being arrested and, and, uh, put in uniform and sent to Ukraine. I mean, you can't make this shit up. I mean, you, if you think I'm bullshitting about that, look it up. These guys thought for some reason it'd be a good idea to go to Moscow for a bachelor party. I mean, what's wrong with Prague, right? But, um, you know, it's like the worst. It's like the, it's like a really bad, um, uh, Bollywood version of The Hangover.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  You wake up, you're, yeah, you wake up, you're on the, in Donbass, yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Not awesome.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  About the Chinese students who, uh, who were just captured, uh, you know, I mean, they, they, uh, being interrogated by the Ukrainians, which, you, you know, I, and I, I understand the rules about interrogating prisoners and public, et cetera. I mean, on, in the media, that's not, you know, I'm not advocating that. But the point is that these guys were saying that, you know, they were, uh, it wasn't like a holiday they applied for. They knew they were volunteering to, to, uh, to fight for Russia. Uh, but they were, there was a serious, there is a serious recruiting effort going on in China. With or without the witting acknowledgement of the Chinese government, you can decide for yourself.

• 42:34Speaker 04

  You know, to, to draw people in to fight for them. And within the Russian ranks, there are tens of thousands of, of foreign semi-volunteers who were cajoled or brought in to, to join the meat grinder.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  But I'm sorry, I took the topic away from the trader house. What um?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Unbelievable. I mean Dale Blender was a former CIA officer. He's been SIS. We had him on, we interviewed him, he got arrested, he pled guilty for mishandling classified information and not registering as a foreign agent. While he was also working in the CIA as a contractor after he retired. I'm sure there's more to it.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  It's just what it is. You could check out the video, the episode. I think it's a good one. Yeah, I don't know.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  He's what a uh?

• 43:26Speaker 02

  We've also had John Kiriyaku on the show.

• 43:30Speaker 04

  Who's he?

• 43:31Speaker 02

  He's a former CIA officer, huh?

• 43:36Speaker 04

  Not another traitor, right?

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it depends where you're looking at it. Yeah, yeah, that's like my actual title of the thing is whistleblower or traitor.

• 43:45Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  He's the guy that's talking about the advanced interrogation stuff. He got fired and went to jail for uh?

• 43:52Speaker 04

  Oh, okay. All right, yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Leaking, leaking stuff to uh?

• 43:54Speaker 04

  That's, that's different. I mean, he wasn't working for a foreign government, right?

• 43:58Speaker 02

  No, but then he got out and he started working for Sputnik Radio. So that's like the big rub on people. I mean, we asked him about like, why, you know, why work for Sputnik? He's like, listen, I got five kids and when I got out, I didn't have a pension. I mean, I get that. I know that people, you know, you can't do it. I mean, he has since not working for Sputnik and stuff like that, but you know, that is another uh debate that can be had because I remember when I told a couple of people, former CIA people that we were having Kiriyaku on, they got very upset with me.

• 44:30Speaker 04

  Did they?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Oh, they were giving me shit.

• 44:32Speaker 04

  People, people got upset about Mark, right?

• 44:34Speaker 02

  I mean, so. Mark P?

• 44:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  Or you're always gonna find people upset, but no, I mean, I think you know, you've got a wide spectrum of guests. You've got, you know, you have traders, you have child molesters.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Fucking guy, we have you on.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. You know, I mean, you've clearly.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Multiple times.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  Have a problem with standards, yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you, I would ha- I'd be down to have a, a former Al Qaeda guy on. I would be honest with you. I mean, why not? Why not get their story? I mean, we had somebody set up who ended up, who became a CIA source, an agent, worked for the CIA for a long time and then got out of here and came to America. We were trying to get him on, but he got cold feet, um.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  So I can get you a guy who's a.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  I'm in.

• 45:25Speaker 03

  He actually knew, uh. Zawahiri well. And he was Al Qaeda and now he's not, or I wouldn't be hanging with him, but now he's, now he's an American who does, uh. Deradicalization. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 04

  Wow, that would be.

• 45:41Speaker 03

  It's a doctor, it's a physician.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  I would love that.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  Um, yep, that's how he knew, you know, uh.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  Zawahiri, um, he was a doctor with him, he joined with him, he got out, he totally reformed himself. And he now, do you, he works for the US government and does a lot of deradicalization.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would love that.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I can get that. He has a book too.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, cause I'm, I'm down to hear other people's perspectives and stuff, especially like, I don't know if I'd be cool with having a Wagner guy on now.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  Well, he's, I mean, he's, he's, he's reformed, so he's not gonna advocate for Al Qaeda, right?

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Maybe in like ten or fifteen years.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Than most, put it that way.

• 46:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:23Speaker 03

  What the allure is.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  And Scott Ritter, we had Scott Ritter on when you're talking about child molesters, I was not the producer of the team at that point.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  I didn't match names to many of the scripts.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Just FYI, okay, okay, Andy, coming out here.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Your invitation is revoked, by the way.

• 46:38Speaker 04

  You never gave me another invitation.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  Shut up.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  All right, moving on.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  So there is another negotiation that's pretty important, and that's the Iran.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, but let's let's hit on also talking about nuclear powers and stuff. India, Pakistan going at it a little bit, a bit of a scuffle in Kashmir again.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Jay, I know you've been tracking it. What do you got on that?

• 47:02Speaker 07

  Yeah, so on Tuesday, twenty two April, in the, I'm probably saying it wrong. Pahagum tourist destination, it's in the Kashmir territories. A group attacked a group of tourists. As far as I know, twenty six killed, twenty five Indian, one Nepali, that may have changed, were killed. And apparently, the men in the group were singled out and were accused of supporting Indian Prime Minister Modi. And then there was mention of, this is according to witnesses, mention of the the fact that India revoked the Jamu Kashmir autonomy.

• 47:41Speaker 07

  In twenty nineteen, and so once those men were singled out, they were executed, basically. Of course, India has accused Pakistan of either setting this up or supporting the the attack. Pakistan denies it. A group that calls themselves the Kashmir Resistance or the Resistance Front has taken responsibility on. On social media, apparently they're relatively new, twenty nineteen was when they first kind of reared their head a little bit, a little, very little is known about them. But India has linked them to, and again, I'm probably going to say this wrong, Lashkar-e-Taiba. Yes.

• 48:22Speaker 07

  I believe it was two thousand eight Mumbai attacks.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Taj Mahal Hotel.

• 48:30Speaker 07

  Yep, absolutely, which I I've been studying that since I was, you know, since it happened, it's pretty fascinating for me how it turned out or how it was conducted, you know, with. They had someone in their ear the entire time, a handler, walking them through the attack, so, but I digress.

• 48:48Speaker 07

  So in the uh in the aftermath of it, both India and Pakistan have taken measures. India first held a press conference and declared their own people in Pakistan at the embassies, Prasanna and Angada and said, get out, you know, you get out of Pakistan. Pakistan did the same in India and both have revoked the visas of Pakistani and Indian nationals within their borders. They gave them 48 hours to get out. And then India or Pakistan also banned India Air, the airline, from its airspace, told them, you know, if we see you in our airspace, we're shooting you down.

• 49:32Speaker 07

  And then India retaliated by suspending the Indus Water Treaty for the river, control of the river, and Pakistan has replied that that is an act of war. And then as of this morning, there were, both sides are reporting sporadic gunfire between the two outposts in the region. So, and like you said, Dee, these are nuclear powers. So, yeah, I mean, they've had issues before. This has been well ongoing since the 40s. I think it was 1947 when the British gave up control and all of this started. So.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  Forty-seven.

• 50:14Speaker 07

  Forty-seven. So, I mean, it's a tense situation. I actually have a neighbor who lives behind me here. He's from India and I spoke to him about it yesterday. And I mean, he's firmly on the Indian side and he, you know, says this is a religious thing. He blames, you know, Muslims and, and all this. And so it was a good talk to get it from someone who just came back from that area, but it's also a very one-sided talk. So it's worth watching. I think it's worth us watching.

• 50:45Speaker 03

  So when they split, Kashmir was run by a Hindu king, predominantly Muslim, which is a recipe for a continuous conflict.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  Till to date, and one thing interesting, or I don't know if interesting is the right word. When you look at limited nuclear war, there's no such thing, right? So I, we, we did a study on this or somebody when I was at the Pentagon, where they showed what would happen if there was a limited gauge between Pakistan and India. It would drop the temperature around the world like four degrees Celsius down. That would equate to a massive loss of crops. And like a billion people would starve to death just with the limited exchange between those two countries. So it's hardly even in the news right now. I'm not saying they're going nuclear, right? So, but you know, people like, why does it matter to me?

• 51:42Speaker 03

  Like if, if there is an, an, an actual strategic level of nuclear exchange, it affects the whole globe. Like you, you, we're not gonna, we're not gonna be able to say, well, it's, it's horrible to be there. It's gonna be horrible to be anywhere on the planet. So this is something, and that also goes to like the next topic, not to skip it. Why it's so important that Iran doesn't get a nuke, right? Because the more people have a nuke, nuclear weapon, more likely it's going to be used by somebody. And that's, it is not confined to the countries that are participating.

• 52:17Speaker 07

  And I remember that article I sent you, sorry, Andy. I had sent that, uh, from the archives. I forget the name of the website, but there was a study done back, excuse me, in the seventies by CIA that said that the probability of a, a conflict, a full-scale conflict between India and Pakistan was low, very, very low, but if there was going to be one, it would be a nuclear exchange.

• 52:42Speaker 03

  Yes, that's why people use that as an example. Yes. Point, Jack.

• 52:46Speaker 04

  Which came near happening in 1998. Probably the closest, the nearest that the world has been to actual nuclear confrontation occurred in 1998 between India and Pakistan. And you, you know, the, the, the lead up to that is quite complicated, but it had to do with both sides doing nuclear tests and both sides feeling that thing from their own intelligence reportedly, believing that the other side was going to launch unprovoked strike.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  Interesting part about that, and I don't know if this was bluff or not, but when I went through the Marine Corps War College, we had a Pakistani general in our class. This was way back in 2009. So it was only about 10 years after this whole event, and he had been, you know, a field grade officer during that. And he, you know, he talked to us about it and said, yeah, absolutely. We were, and he was quite open about it. Again, I don't know if this was bluff, but he said, yeah, our policy is a preemptive strike if we believe that India is going to do it. We're not going to wait to be hit. And so that's how close it came. And it's, it's part of the, you know, their, their strategic calculus.

• 53:57Speaker 04

  And so I'm sure it's the same on the Indian side. And to your, you know, to your point about the history of this, because it's had the, the, the problems between India and Pakistan are very ill-understood in the United States, and they have in the past not been understood.

• 54:18Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 54:33Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 54:44Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 54:48Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 54:55Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

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• 55:45Speaker 04

  ... by our policymakers at all. And so, for instance, when we had been trying to get Pakistan on board, all right, initially in supporting the Mujahideen against the Soviets, and then again in opposing and rooting out the same Mujahideen when they became Al Qaeda and were buried in the Taliban, all right, and the ISI was supporting the Taliban. And what we never, never understood during all this time was that for India, all of these other things were sideshows, absolute. And so, every calculus that India, I mean, I'm sorry, that Pakistan made was made on the basis of its policy towards India, its enmity towards India, to include getting

• 56:30Speaker 04

  Taliban on side, to, you know, which, which in turn meant having considerable influence in Afghanistan as a bulwark against, against India, because they felt if they didn't do that, India would, would gain influence in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be sandwiched, you know, between the two. So, we never really understood this. And we never, we never approached Pakistan when we came to negotiation or trying to get them on board with anything that Pakistan would find really inherently attractive strategically, you know, as perhaps not siding with Pakistan against India, but enabling negotiations

• 57:13Speaker 04

  that would meet some of Pakistan's concerns, which have to do, you know, with a number of things, to include water rights and things like that, which we have never, you know, we have never addressed. And, yes, the enmity goes all back, all the way back to the British partition of India, which was one of the most ill-conceived decisions made as, as the empire shut down. It was a guy named Montbatten, who was the Vice Secretary of Endear at the time. And accusations against him were that he wanted to rush on to his next posting. He was a senior military commander and he just wanted to get India, give India its independence

• 57:56Speaker 04

  and carve out this thing called Pakistan that would acknowledge the religious differences within India at the time. So the idea was that all the Muslims would live up in the northeast, I mean northwest and northeast at the time. Sorry, very short history lesson. At the time, there was West Pakistan and there was East Pakistan, which subsequently in 1971 became Bangladesh. Alright, so you can just think about it, okay? And you've got this subcontinent of, you know, even back then, hundreds of millions of people, different, you know, different sects, but Muslim and Hindu. And the British had kind of kept the lid on, on all this simmering tension over

• 58:39Speaker 04

  200 years. And now they're going to lift the lid. And geographically, the Muslims weren't all up in Pakistan, east or west Pakistan, they were spread throughout the, the subcontinent. And so the British said, you know, lo and behold, at midnight, right, very famously, there's a book about this called Freedom at Midnight, midnight of August, whatever it is, 1947, I forget what, what date it was. India, you've got your independence and Pakistan, you've come into being, all the Muslims will live up here, all the Hindus down here. And of course, you had absolute pandemonium, chaos and horrendous slaughter. And you can look up the figures, no one really knows how many Muslims and Hindus died in, in the subsequent massacres.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  But I believe the number's in the millions. And the, the history of Pakistan and India has been fraught ever since. Bangladesh evolved in 1971 after a very bitter war and India was involved in that war against Pakistan. So things have flared up at time to time. Kashmir has already, has always been a, a really...

• 59:48Speaker 04

  Has been a hot button topic. By the way, beautiful area. I've been up there a couple of times before it became forbidden to foreign tourists. Just absolutely stunning and the foothills of the Himalayas. But it's religiously divided area and both sides claim it. And when things start heating up, invariably, things happen in Tringar. Last thing I'll say, there's a very good movie about the 2008 attacks in Mumbai. Undoubtedly, LET came out of Pakistan, was trained within Pakistan, you know, supposedly by the ISI, and commanded and controlled from

• 1:00:31Speaker 04

  Pakistan throughout the attacks, which resulted in several hundred civilian deaths. And included terrorists storming through the famous Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai, just killing people. But it was a very, it was an amphibious assault, amphibious raid. It was actually very well planned, you know, towards the end, but very well planned. And, you know, incidents like that, the Indians have a legitimate claim that the Pakistanis have been training terrorists with a view to attacking India. And, and, you know, India's hands are not clean either.

• 1:01:12Speaker 04

  The things that happened, the assassinations within Pakistan that have been certainly, it appears backed by or supported and, and launched from, from India.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we'll keep eyes on that. Anything else about?

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  No? All right. Last bit of news, third round of Iranian and US negotiations just wrapped up in Oman. This was like, the experts were talking about, like, the actual details. While this was happening earlier today, a huge explosion happened in the, an Iranian port as well. State TV, Iranian state TV saying that both sides are going to go back to their countries and consult and come back again for hopefully another round of talks. Where, Mike, let's start with you. What are your thoughts?

• 1:02:09Speaker 03

  So I think the explosion you're talking about, Dee, was in Ben or a boss or close to it. And I think it's probably, although we don't know, it's probably a simple negligence on the part of the work facility. But of course, there are people out there to think it might be some kind of covert operations by the Israelis to disrupt the negotiations. I don't have any information on that, but to that point. But on the bigger issue, I can, and I was reading this morning, I'm part of a group called the Vandenberg Coalition, which is a nonpartisan group that believes foreign policy should stop at the water's edge. Senator Vandenberg said that famous line, so its motto is the water's edge.

• 1:02:50Speaker 03

  But they're also, they joined a bunch of other, I think, conservative groups to talk about what they call the seven deadly sins of what they're concerned about. And it's definitely written for President Trump, because it's, you know, if you read it, you'll see. But I thought it would be a good model for our discussion. So I told Carrie I'd bring it. Carrie Filippetti is the executive director there, and I told her, bring it up. So the first one is, and this is, we're going to start seeing this play out. So Iran cannot enrich its own uranium, right? Under the JCPOA from 2015, they could have up to 3.6% enriched uranium.

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  The issue, going back and forth between Special Envoy Whitkoff and Secretary Rubio, is it appeared that Whitkoff was saying that they could essentially enrich their own uranium, they just couldn't have a certain, what, what I think most of the Iranian, the concern from the, the people are that they shouldn't be able to enrich it at all. So they can get it from someplace else and then, like Russia, and then use it for their own energy. So they don't have the ability then to turn it like they did and get all the way up to 60, which is super close to getting the 90 that you need for weaponizations.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  There's, there are seven deadly sins, too. And then I think I could throw it over to you guys to talk about some of these things or just interrupt me as I get through it. The, the missiles, right? So the ballistic missiles were included before. That's a big problem because The concern is, once you have a nuclear warhead, how do you deliver it? And yes, you can deliver it other ways, but the most concerning and quickest is a ballistic missile that can reach. So they they would want to make sure that the agreement

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  limits their ability to produce or even test missiles that could be carry, could be capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  Monitoring, that's their third, you know, it's it's one, you know, trust but verify is what President Reagan said. We're not going to take their word for it. There has to be very strong means to be able to ensure that they can't bypass the observation of the fact that they're sticking to the agreement.

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  Okay, the other issue that was a big deal in 2018 when I was at the Pentagon and we were having this discussion at the White House is the 2015 agreement didn't address, you know, funding terrorist organizations, you know, their proxy operations.

• 1:05:43Speaker 03

  Iran's made it clear that they're not gonna, they're not gonna include that in this. So there, I I don't, this is what they're talking about, but there might be need, needs to be a covert annex to this or something that limits or a sub rosa agreement that limits their ability to fund Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis and others. Because that is the biggest concern when it comes to reducing sanctions. If you do sanctions and there's billions of more dollars that they can use to fund terrorist groups that are conducting things like October 7th. So that's another thing we're going to be hearing a lot about. And then the last one and zip it.

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  There is specific sanctions on the Central Bank of Iran related to that, related to that can't be part of the sanction, related to the terrorism support. That can't be part of the negotiated according to this group of.

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  Think tanks. So I think we're going to be seeing that play out as we have the next discussion. I think it's back in Oman. Or this is today, it might be today, actually, in Oman.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  And they just wrapped it up. They just finished.

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  They just wrapped it up. There you go. So we'll see what comes out of it. But those are the big issues, I think, when it comes to whether this goes forward with full support. Obviously, Israel's very concerned about this, and they're going to be putting a lot of pressure on the administration. And now we're seeing some of the, I think, right-aligned think tanks started to be concerned that we could basically just end up from their point of view of essentially the 2015 agreement. We should all hope that they can get to an agreement. I think the administration so far has done a good job getting there and putting pressure on Iran, particularly with the military buildup. And we should all hope that it works out.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Boys, who wants to take that first?

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  I'll let you go. Andy?

• 1:07:40Speaker 04

  No, I mean, the, I, we, we've talked about the, we've talked about the topic before, but I think Mick summed it all up. And I, and I think for me, just to pile in and just could be repeated Mick, which, you know, I've made a career out of. And I'm not ashamed to do that.

• 1:07:58Speaker 04

  Then right, yeah, right, right on target.

• 1:08:02Speaker 03

  So we'll see the readout today, but hopefully it's, it's going to advance.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  I think the readout from today so far, right away, like reaction is like positive.

• 1:08:10Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  So. But it was the experts talking, I guess, about like exactly what to do. What if they say, I want, we still want to enrich Iranian, but we'll give you guys a robust monitoring.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  Uh, I mean, there's the part of negotiations or compromise.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Speaker 03

  So I, if I'm not in the administration, so I'm not giving away anything, but I would have what we're saying we want, and obviously what we would, and everybody does this, what we'd accept. And if there was some kind of negotiated agreement, well, okay, you're rich in Iranian, but we have the ability to turn them off or something, or the IAEA. Or something, something has to have the ability to do that. And there's a big deal for Iran. I mean, if they get a lot of their sanctions removed, it'll be a huge benefit to them. So there's reasons to do this. And, and I don't think that the president's bluffing. I think that there could be a direct military strike on the facilities, the main ones, the Tans, there's several, Fordow.

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  It could happen, and it certainly would, would show just how weak Iran is. So they don't want it to happen. So there's reasons on both sides to get this done. And I think, I think we should all be pulling for it. But there's going to be concerns that too much is given away on the side of the United States.

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  But hopefully they can land in the right place.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  I mean, what's the end goal? End goal is no nuclear weapons, right? Like, so get to that point and like.

• 1:09:37Speaker 03

  No nuclear weapons, but it's also doing more to limit the proxy support.

• 1:09:44Speaker 03

  So we like to eliminate it, but it, you know, we're going to be real.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  And in discussion like this, maybe not at the table with everybody there, but I guess covertly and behind the scenes, are they asking about like, hey, you're going to put a lit, you're going to put a leash on Israel?

• 1:09:58Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, they, they, yeah, I'm sure they're going to say that, but you know, stop attacking Israel. That's what I would tell them. You know, if you don't want to, if you don't want Israel to attack Iran, don't support groups that attack Israel. You know, I mean, ninety, ninety percent of military support for Hamas came from, from Iran.

• 1:10:18Speaker 04

  Right. The, yeah, so I mean, that, that's, I doubt Iran is even going to ask that. And I'll tell you why, because I, I think a, a big disappointment of this negotiating. So the tactic is the fact that we're not bringing proxies into play. You know, we're not, I mean, the, and, and that was a weakness in the original Jipowa was that Iran's malign influence was not challenged by anything in the Jipowa. Now, Iran's malign influence has been considerably reduced. Certainly as far as Hamas is concerned, but it's still supporting Hezbollah. Hezbollah may be on its knees for now, but with Iranian support, well,

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  we'll, we'll recover. It might take as long as a decade, but it will recover and the Iranians will go on supplying weapons. You know, so it'd be a good time to, to kind of broker an agreement that, that.

• 1:11:16Speaker 04

  That undermine that, but of most immediate concern, of course, to everyone at the Houthis. So, yeah, I mean, I, I don't think, I'd say to him or that because the US isn't going to agree to anything when it comes to Israel. But I don't think Iran would even, would even broach that because that opens up that whole, that whole bag of worms. But what Iran has been to support proxies throughout the world. Oh, and the far has, of course, weakened.

• 1:11:47Speaker 04

  Iran's position regionally too. All it has is, uh, really right now, I mean, it's the ability to rebuild Hezbollah and to continue to supply the Houthis.

• 1:11:58Speaker 02

  Uh, Mick, you mentioned like, uh, if there was an agreement, there'd be some kind of covert kind of addendum or annex to it. Uh, has that happened before and how do you monitor that?

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Well, if it's covert, then I wouldn't be talking about it. I mean, I, the reason why I suggested that, I don't even know if it's a, if it's in play. But there's a lot of things that Iran simply couldn't acknowledge publicly that they would do. And one of them, as they say, and I'm on, uh, several shows where I see the Iranian perspective. To them, it's their allies, right? Hezbollah is their allies. They're not going to publicly say we're going to abandon our ally. But if we could get them to substantially reduce, again, we'd rather eliminate any support to them. That happens over time without them having to publicly acknowledge it. I think that's, that would, that's what I'm calling like a covert.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Is there precedent for that?

• 1:12:56Speaker 03

  I don't know. I mean, ultimately, I think there probably is.

• 1:13:01Speaker 03

  To have like a portion of an agreement, but I don't know. I mean, that's the point of be, being covert. We should never acknowledge it because if that was the case, then, then other countries and groups would not. Ever agree to it again. We have to keep that essentially on the low down and the, the idea behind it would be. That eventually they would cease support to Hezbollah. They just can't say it because if they say it out loud, that's a huge slap.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  For the, you know, I told him, you know, the Supreme Leader. So it's more important to me that we get it actually done than take some kind of public credit for getting them to cut it. So I don't know if that's the case. I'm just throwing it out there. Ultimately, it's in everybody's interest to ensure they don't get a nuclear weapon. And although I would support the military option, if it's the only.

• 1:13:50Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:14:05Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:14:16Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

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  Option, we don't want to. We don't want to go down that road because then they're sea mining, you know, the Straits of Hormuz, it's they're attacking embassies, they're attacking our partners and allies and bases. I mean, it's, nobody should want this to turn into a actual conflict.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  And there's no guarantee if we do hit it, that it stops and really like it doesn't bring it back to the Stone Age. It could delay it six months or blink twice if there is precedent for precedent for this.

• 1:15:46Speaker 03

  I'm just advocating for it as a, as a citizen, not as a.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, so we'll see what goes on from here. Uh, Mick, you wanted to mention something at the end of the show before.

• 1:15:58Speaker 03

  I did, and I could see it on the TV right now. I know it's off topic and I'm not a particularly religious person, but wanted to acknowledge it's the Pope's funeral today. Uh, it's something I think that's super interested about him and and it kind of explains a lot about Pope Francis. Is that he was a Jesuit, so he's the first Pope that was a Jesuit. And if you're not familiar with that, that order, it was founded by somebody who was a soldier. That's why they call them soldiers of God.

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  Saint Ignatius of Loyola, he was a soldier in Spain.

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  But the fascinating thing about them is they not only are the teachers, the free thinkers, scientists, but they are known for sticking up for the poor, for the marginalized people in society, for human rights advocacy around the world. They're truly, and there's only 2% of all priests are Jesuits. I know this, again, I'm not a religious person or particularly religious, but my father was a Jesuit priest. Uh, obviously he left the priesthood and became a scientist, or I wouldn't be talking to you, fine people. But, um, so I've always had a fascination with them. Because my father, you talk about it that much, he was very much in that same line. And I think if you're looking for,

• 1:17:18Speaker 03

  what drove Pope Francis to be such a reformer and also to be somebody that really vocally advocated for refugees, for human rights around the world.

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  I think that that was it. He, it all came from from the order of the Jesuits, which in some cases takes up to 10 years to even be to get into. So it's a very exclusive group, but I think whether you're Catholic or Christian or religious or not, I wish we had more people like the Jesuits.

• 1:17:52Speaker 04

  Certainly in Central America in the eighties, you know, when we, when the United States was, because of the Cold War, you know, this isn't an ethical judgment, but we were supporting a lot of regimes, El Salvador, Chile to some extent, Argentina, who were basically extreme right wing and did not have the best records in human rights. It was the Jesuit communities in those countries showing a great deal of courage that stood up for the populations. And there was a famous murder, right? The 1989 murder of Jesuit priests in El Salvador is what really got the United States

• 1:18:36Speaker 04

  to reconsider its policy towards the El Salvadorian government. And ultimately resulted in negotiations with the rebels and eventually peace. But it was, you know, it was kind of a moment where the government-backed death squads killed, I think it was six Jesuit priests in El Salvador in 89. And that was kind of the clincher. But because I'm, you know, also a fair guy and I'm interested in history. Now, the Jesuits didn't always have a benign reputation going back to, for instance, in the Spanish position.

• 1:19:12Speaker 04

  You know, it's a paradox. I mean, of course, as we're talking-

• 1:19:15Speaker 03

  Talking about today, talking about-

• 1:19:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  Watch your mouth, Andy.

• 1:19:20Speaker 04

  No, I'm, no, no, don't get me wrong. I'm a big Jesuit supporter. I mean, I'm not just saying that because of mixed father I am. I mean, Jesuit schools, you know, they're longstanding three, you know, three pillars, right? Education and, and human rights. Well, that's two pillars, sorry. Speaking of-

• 1:19:40Speaker 03

  Close enough. Yeah, and they, they kind of take, well, they're, they're, they're kind of the guys that go and do the most dangerous stuff, right? You already mentioned like-

• 1:19:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  They, they-

• 1:19:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:48Speaker 03

  The soldiers of God, yeah.

• 1:19:51Speaker 04

  Expeditionary, you know, I know evangelists in the evangel- Evangelism. Yeah, it's a bad name, but, but they were kind of the spearhead of Catholic evangelism. Why am I fucking-

• 1:20:08Speaker 03

  Close. Yeah.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  They select the Marines.

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I like to think.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Speaker 03

  And again, I'm not, I'm not proselytizing here. I'm there's anybody, you know, it's a, it's a big day for, I think Catholics and, um, and it's a celebration of life, right? He was a, he was a, you know, he was up there, but anyway.

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, by all accounts, he was a very, he was a good guy and.

• 1:20:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:33Speaker 02

  You know.

• 1:20:35Speaker 04

  Very, very highly respected.

• 1:20:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 04

  And, and it's always nice, you know, nice to see a funeral, but it is nice to see a non-political event drawing leaders and constitutional monarchs from around the world. You know, simply to mourn, simply to mourn a, a very good, very influential man and pillar, of course, you know, the center of the Catholic Church. So.

• 1:20:58Speaker 03

  Amen.

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  Hopefully they don't elect a mutant next. Uh, hopefully it's like.

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  We'll find out. Conclave is starting, uh, I think soon, right? Probably.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. All right, boys. This is great. Guys, don't forget to check out all the, all the links down in the description. Mick Lobbo, Fogbo. All his publications are down in the description. Andy Milburn, When the Tempest Gathers, great autobiography about his, uh, escapades. Um, and I'm not just kidding. It's, I'm not fucking around. It's a very good book. Uh, link is in the description. Jason had a run. Jason Lyons, all his links are in the description. If you want to see these guys, talk to these guys, read what they've written. All the links are in the description. If you want early access eh, to both the Team House and Eyes on Geopolitics, also ad free. You can go to patreon.com slash the team house and guess what? That link is there too. Thanks, guys. This is awesome.

• 1:21:53Speaker 03

  Thanks, guys. Have a great day.

• 1:21:55Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show. If you've been watching it, enjoying it. Um, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this. You can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com slash the team house. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of the team house ad free. Uh, the same goes with our affiliate. ...podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, Mick Mulroy. That one, you will also get all of those episodes ad-free. And you support the channel and the show, and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business,

• 1:22:37Jack Murphy?

  survive, especially during our early years. And you are what continues to help this thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to be a link down in the description to that Patreon page, and there is also going to be a link to our new merch shop. So if you guys want to go and get some Team House merchandise, we got stickers, and we also have patches. And I should mention, if you sign up for Patreon at $10 a month, we will mail you this patch as well. So we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the merch shop.

• 1:23:17Jack Murphy?

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• 1:23:32Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:23:46Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:23:57Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:24:03Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:24:08Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

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  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

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  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

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  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

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  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

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  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

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  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:29:40Speaker 07

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis,

• 1:30:24Speaker 07

  while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Ask an allergist about Soler. This is an advertisement for Soler paid for by Genentech and Novartis. You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two-hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite spots. Live blackjack, live craps with a live dealer. New players, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again.

• 1:31:04Speaker 07

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