197. “I thought he was the problem… but it’s me?!”

Live from the House of Blues in Chicago, Ramit coaches Evelyn and Mike (41). Despite their successful careers, money is a constant source of tension. Evelyn scrutinizes every purchase, while Mike feels frustrated by the endless debates over small expenses. Can Evelyn let go of her scarcity mindset and start trusting their financial future? Plus, stay tuned for a surprise visit from one of the past guests of Netflix’s How To Get Rich. This episode is brought to you by: Shopify | Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/ramit. Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions – and manage your expenses the easy way – by going to https://rocketmoney.com/ramit. Facet | Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to https://facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. NordVPN | Secure your online privacy with NordVPN’s special offer. Get a huge discount on a 2-year plan, plus 4 bonus months free, when you sign up at https://nordvpn.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • Want to earn an extra $1,000 on the side? Get on the waitlist at iwt.com/earnwaitlist • Get alerts about future live shows • Order my new book: Money for Couples Connect with Ramit • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with on the podcast, free of charge. Apply to be on the podcast here. Produced by Crate Media.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Ramit Sethi?

  It's kind of funny when I talk to small business owners who are super frustrated by the vendors that they work with because I'm like, you all know you're the boss, right? You can fire them. You can make changes today. So if you don't like the platform that you are working with, move off of it. I've done it many times. If a CPA that you are working on goes dark on you after April, find somebody who's better. And that is where our partners at Gelt come in. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year round. By working with Gelt, you get access to one dedicated tax strategist with real human expertise powered by cutting-edge technology that handles the rest. And right

• 0:41Ramit Sethi?

  now, they have two Q3 exclusive offers. Extension Rescue, where Gelt takes over your tax extension with fast onboarding and no stress, keeping you deadline safe. The Retirement Catch-Up, where Gelt models your prior year retirement contribution opportunities to maximize what's on the table before October 15. This offer is included for all new clients this quarter. A great CPA is a year-round partner who stays in touch with you. And Gelt is taking on new clients now. Now is the time for business owners to get ahead, not in January. So find out if you qualify at joingelt.com/ramit. That's join G E L T dot com slash ramit.

• 1:26Ramit Sethi?

  Recently, my producer told me she's been struggling with sleep, so I asked our sponsor, Lisa, to send her a new mattress. And here's what she said. "I've struggled with insomnia for years. Now every night when I get in bed, I'm instantly relaxed and asleep within minutes. The Lisa mattress is somehow soft and supportive at the same time. It's the most comfortable mattress I have ever slept on in my life." That's from our producer. "Lisa makes premium, beautifully crafted mattresses designed specifically for how you sleep, whether it's on your stomach, side, or back. They make it easy to figure out which mattress is best for you. You just take their two-minute sleep quiz. And Lisa mattresses were named the best hybrid and best memory foam mattresses by the New York Times Wirecutter. And they come with

• 2:10Ramit Sethi?

  Easy returns and a 120 night sleep trial. Go to leesa.com for 25% off mattresses. Plus get an extra $50 off with promo code REMIT. Exclusive for my listeners. That's L E E S A dot com promo code REMIT for 25% off mattresses. Plus an extra $50 off. And support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. Lisa.com promo code REMIT.

• 2:36Ramit Sethi?

  Whoa, Chicago. Wow. Now this is what I'm talking about. Making life harder than it needs to be. That's the theme of Chicagoans and also Indian parents.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I run it through my head with a resentment lens every night.

• 2:53Ramit Sethi?

  Show me the compound interest calculation. I've been waiting all night.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Did you see eye rolling?

• 2:58Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, everyone saw it.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  That was so hot.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Let's go home and get fried.

• 3:06Ramit Sethi?

  Wrap it up.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Feelings are hard for him.

• 3:08Ramit Sethi?

  She calls me a robot. How many fishing poles do you have?

• 3:10Speaker 02

  I may be about eight.

• 3:11Ramit Sethi?

  Is that normal?

• 3:13Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 3:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay, God damn.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  If I include the kids in my ice fishing pole, sure, maybe like 20.

• 3:19Ramit Sethi?

  Twenty? Wait, that's just, wait a minute. Thank you for flagging that.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  That's not why I'm flying.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  I definitely saw this coming.

• 3:39Ramit Sethi?

  Today's episode of Money for Couples is going to be a little bit different. I had the chance to spend several weeks on tour for my new book, Money for Couples, where I had the amazing opportunity to sit down with couples in person, unscripted, onstage in front of a live audience, and I loved it. On today's episode, you'll have a chance to see me sit down with two couples live in Chicago. And I'm going to let you in on a little secret. I was only supposed to talk to the first couple for 30 minutes, but their story was so incredible, which you're going to see and hear today, that I just had to keep going. I think you're going to be surprised by the conversation because I know I was.

• 4:21Ramit Sethi?

  I also got the chance to sit down with some surprised guests who you may recognize from my Netflix show, How to Get Rich. My personal theme for this year is maximalism. And I couldn't think of a better way to kick off the year than by going on this book tour and seeing you in different cities across the country. It was a ton of fun. You can feel the energy in the room. And I have one more tour stop. It's in L.A., but the event is sold out. So if you would like to get on a waitlist for future events, go to iwt.com/tourwaitlist. Now, let's get to the show. Whoa, Chicago!

• 5:05Ramit Sethi?

  What is going on? Damn. Wow. Now, this is what I'm talking about. Great to see everybody. Amazing. You know what? We got to start off with something that I just found out last night. I got to play it for you. The first people I've played it for anywhere. I'm telling the truth. I got a voicemail last night. I have to share it with you. Let's play that voicemail.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh. I can't believe I was about to leave this on a voicemail to you, but I'm going to just say on the voicemail, which is, huge congratulations. Money for Couples is officially a New York Times bestseller. Number three on the how-to advice and miscellaneous list. Congratulations. We are overjoyed. I hope you are, too. It's an incredible feat. Bravo. Beautifully done. Congratulations. We are so excited.

• 6:04Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you, thank you, thank you. I didn't know I was going to get that voicemail, and I did not know that was going to happen. But I have to thank all of you for reading my book, reading my books, reading my material, sharing it with your friends, even when I know they don't want to hear you talking about this guy, Ramit. I know it. I know it. By the way, I want to do something fun. Since this is a special night and it's a one night only, can everybody get that book out and just stand up? I want to take a selfie with everybody. Yes. All right. Oh my god, this looks so cool. Okay, hold it up, hold it up high. One, two, three. Amazing, thank you so much.

• 6:47Ramit Sethi?

  Oh my god, I love Chicago, I love being here. What an amazing city. You guys really don't give a [bleep] about pain in this city. Like, I can't believe it. It's 12 degrees. And I saw, there's a line out the door, and literally hundreds of people said, "Yes, let's go to an event about love and money." Why? I went to another city on tour, and there was, I was walking outside, there was a lady walking her dog. She was wearing a full winter coat, full, with gloves. It was 61 degrees.

• 7:24Ramit Sethi?

  Like, life is hard enough, but you guys actually make it harder on purpose. Like, for no good reason. I've never been to a city that chooses an official drink, which is the most disgusting thing I've ever tasted in my life. What the [bleep] is wrong with you? Why did you do that? You didn't have to do it, but you did it anyway. What is Malort anyway? I don't know, but I don't want to know. Making life harder than it needs to be. That's the theme of Chicagoans. And also Indian parents. All right. I have had some of my best conversations about money with people in Chicago. And when I finally get them to open up

• 8:07Ramit Sethi?

  and to talk about what's really going on, you really never know what to expect. Like tonight. It's so rare that people actually talk about what they love to spend money on without shame. Just in the possibility phase. I love that. And I love hearing real responses from real people, which is what we are going to see tonight with real people who are going to do something I would frankly be terrified to do. And that is, come on stage, live in front of all of us, and share their numbers, and share some of their biggest challenges ever. That takes a lot of courage. So I want you to get on your feet and help me give a warm welcome to Evelyn and Mike.

• 8:56Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Welcome.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 9:00Ramit Sethi?

  How you doing?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  I'm loving the cold.

• 9:03Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  We're from Minneapolis, so this is like balmy.

• 9:06Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, love it. Mike, how you doing?

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Pretty good, a little nervous, but...

• 9:11Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Well, the crowd is here for you guys. What do you say?

• 9:16Ramit Sethi?

  That's what I'm talking about. So, who was the one who applied to come and speak today? Evelyn, okay. Is that common when it comes to money?

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Not money, but things that are fun, yes.

• 9:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, well Evelyn, your application made me laugh. You wrote,

• 9:40Ramit Sethi?

  "Deep fried foods at the Minnesota State Fair. When we go, I am always cautious about how much to spend while my spouse buys and eats whatever he desires." Parenthesis, "He eats a lot."

• 10:00Ramit Sethi?

  This is indicative of the tension we often have. Okay, first of all, I need to know, what are you guys buying at the state fair? Is it this? Fried bread? Is it this?

• 10:14Ramit Sethi?

  Whatever that is. Or only, only, uh, the brown crew will know what this one is. Is it this? Jalebi! All right, everyone's like, what the hell is that? Try it next time you see it. Okay, so what is it?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  It's probably more savory, like fried shepherd's pie, fried mushrooms, fried smelt.

• 10:37Ramit Sethi?

  What the hell? You, you buy this at a state fair?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Pretty much anything you want.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Fried ranch dressing?

• 10:43Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, I see why you have a problem with what he orders. I would never order this. So, so it's a quantity issue or a quality issue?

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Quality's to be determined. You gotta try it first.

• 10:55Ramit Sethi?

  Good answer, okay. So let's see how these conversations actually go. Can you transport yourself back to the last time that you were at the state fair? The smells, the sounds. Let's have the real conversation. Go ahead.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Mike, how many things have you eaten today?

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Not enough?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Do you really need to get another fried pie dipped in Biscoff and honey? After eating 14 other fried items? How much have we spent today?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  One, we can afford it. And two, it's new, it's different, we gotta try it.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Oh, bite me.

• 11:36Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, can we give it up for them? You know, I gotta say, I appreciate you getting right into that. Sometimes it's hard for people to go back and they kind of embellish, but that seems pretty real. Would you say that's pretty authentic?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I run it through my head with a resentment lens every night.

• 11:54Ramit Sethi?

  Really? No kidding?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  So that's why it's easy to reenact.

• 11:57Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  How was up here?

• 11:58Ramit Sethi?

  Like, there was a lot of body language in there that felt pretty real, like, there was a bit of eye rolling and, right?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Did you see eye rolling?

• 12:09Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, everyone saw it.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  It's a reflex at this point.

• 12:15Ramit Sethi?

  So is this something that happens often?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  The fried food or the conversation?

• 12:20Ramit Sethi?

  The conversation.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Both, actually. Yeah, we have these on a regular basis.

• 12:24Ramit Sethi?

  How often?

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Even today, we were discussing like the MT, or what was it? The L train ticket. And how it's like $5 for a single day pass. And she's like, "Well, we gotta use the L more to maximize that $5."

• 12:38Speaker 01

  I was like, "We should just ride it around the city to maximize the $5."

• 12:43Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, this is...

• 12:46Speaker 01

  I'm not even joking.

• 12:48Ramit Sethi?

  I was just like...

• 12:48Speaker 02

  No, you're not. I was like, you know, we took it from the airport in, and then we were taking it to a place for lunch. And I was like, "Hey, that's equal to the $5." Like, two trips is equal to $5. But she's like, "No, we gotta do more trips on it." I'm like, "It's fine."

• 13:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so, Mike, when you have these conversations, what does it feel like for you?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Sometimes she's joking, but sometimes I think she's serious. And I'm like, the logic, it's like, it's not that big of a deal. You can let it go.

• 13:21Ramit Sethi?

  Can I ask again? What does it feel like for you?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Feelings are hard for him, so give him a minute.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  She calls me a robot. Uh, it feels like it's not making any progress.

• 13:34Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know if that's a feeling. Let's try it again. Hold on, hold on. All jokes aside, I'm serious. And I can understand the difficulty accessing your feelings, right? Asian guy, Indian guy. It's not talked about in our cultures. Like, it certainly wasn't in mine. Can we get the lights up for a second? I specifically want to talk to the guys in the room. Are there any guys in here who have trouble accessing their feelings sometimes? I'm putting my hand up first. Look at that. Look at that. So first of all, you're not alone. Can we give him a round of applause? You are not. Thank you. If someone had asked me at 22 or some young age, "What do you feel about X?", I would have said, "Oh, well, I think blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

• 14:19Ramit Sethi?

  It's a very intellectual answer. And sometimes getting in touch with their feelings is not a natural skill. So let's take it slow, but I do want to hear how it feels.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  I think, is frustration a feeling?

• 14:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  That might be a... I need an emotion wheel to...

• 14:37Ramit Sethi?

  I have a wheel of emotions. I got it from a therapist, our therapist. Because I had this problem. She's like, "Try this wheel." Like a freaking wine wheel. Like, sometimes I look at it.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  We've gone through that before, yeah.

• 14:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  It's very helpful.

• 14:50Ramit Sethi?

  So frustration at what?

• 14:53Speaker 02

  That we are having this conversation.

• 14:56Ramit Sethi?

  That we are, or that she is bringing it up?

• 15:00Speaker 02

  That I have to rebut what she is saying?

• 15:05Ramit Sethi?

  Do you?

• 15:07Speaker 02

  No, I can acknowledge her feelings and just ask her why she feels that way. That'd be the good answer.

• 15:15Ramit Sethi?

  Well, I'm not looking for the good answer. I'm looking for your answer.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Uh, well, she likes to converse, so I feel like we have to. I can't ignore her.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  These are very practical answers. As you can see, I'm just wired.

• 15:29Ramit Sethi?

  Can we do that role play again? The state fair thing. This time, I love where you just kind of went. You said, "I could acknowledge her feelings." Can we just try that for a second? So Evelyn?

• 15:43Speaker 01

  How many dishes have you had today?

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've had quite a lot of dishes. Thank you for noticing.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Do we need to get another one?

• 15:53Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know if we need to. It sounds like you have a concern with me getting another dish.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  I think the tapeworm within is satisfied.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that tapeworm may really like more fried foods. I'm not sure. Is this a concern of yours?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Have you no restraint?

• 16:14Ramit Sethi?

  Evelyn, I think he's... Let's go with him. He's trying to make an effort here. So, meet him halfway.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  I think you... Are you voicing that you would like me to withhold from eating more?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  That'd be wonderful. Thanks.

• 16:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How do you think that went, Evelyn?

• 16:35Speaker 01

  It was unrealistic.

• 16:37Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I agree. But how do you think that he felt?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Uncomfortable.

• 16:41Ramit Sethi?

  And?

• 16:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I appreciate the acknowledgement of my feelings. And if this is real life and not role play, that would have been really surprising.

• 16:52Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, I guess I didn't hear you appreciate him.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  I probably didn't, because I did it in my head.

• 17:00Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. Let's ask the crowd. Did anyone here Evelyn appreciate him? Okay, shall we try it again? All you have... You can just appreciate it out loud. Just take what's in your head and just say it out loud. Go ahead.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  That was so hot.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Let's go home and get fried.

• 17:17Ramit Sethi?

  Wrap it up.

• 17:20Ramit Sethi?

  So try it again, for real.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Thanks. I appreciate that you're acknowledging my feelings. Maybe we could take something for the road?

• 17:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, round of applause. That was great.

• 17:33Ramit Sethi?

  So, you know, it feels uncomfortable and a little contrived, I get that, but did we all see what just happened here? So much resistance. If you zoom out of the conversation that the two of you just had, and you pretend it was me and somebody else, what would you observe about the conversation that we had the first time?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  A lot of back and forth, not really trying to understand each other and more just arguing.

• 17:59Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh. Evelyn?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't really a conversation. It was more like we were in our respective corners.

• 18:04Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  With our mini Don Kings behind us.

• 18:08Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Massaging us and getting us ready for the next round.

• 18:11Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, I think you were fighting. You were each, you were in the ring.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:15Ramit Sethi?

  And you were each doing your thing and there was no, it wasn't together, it was individual with their own position. Okay, very insightful. Evelyn, you actually gave us a tour of your basement. Uh, let's check it out.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  We'll be right back to see Evelyn and Mike's basement after a short break to support our sponsors.

• 18:37Ramit Sethi?

  You know, I have a program where I teach people how to start and grow their businesses. It's called Earnable. And in that program, I ask the students to text a friend saying, hey, what do you think my top five talents are? After they start getting responses in a few minutes, they are shocked at all of the things they're good at and they didn't even realize it. Having someone reflect back can change everything. That's what growing feels like. That's why I recommend getting therapy so often on this podcast. And Grow Therapy can help you find the right therapist for you. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Grow connects you to thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US that work with your schedule.

• 19:20Ramit Sethi?

  Virtual, in-person sessions, nights, weekends, they have an option that will work for you. You can search by what matters, by identity, specialty, availability. Insurance coverage, you can find a therapist who's the right fit for you. Grow makes it easy to book an appointment in minutes and begin sessions in as little as two days. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com/ramit. That's growtherapy.com/ramit. Growtherapy.com/ramit. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

• 19:59Ramit Sethi?

  One of my friends recently had to call her phone provider to ask a simple question about her account. It took her over 30 minutes to finally get connected to someone. Answering the question only took like 45 seconds. If you run a business, do not do this to your customers. Instead, I recommend you use 11 Agents by 11 Labs and make their experience great from the very beginning. 11 Agents is a platform for AI voice and chat agents that can actually listen, understand, and resolve customer issues. They handle the simple stuff like looking up customer accounts, processing requests, and they know when to hand off complex tasks to a person. Their agents use the same AI tech as 11 Labs, the company known for realistic voice and audio models in over 70 languages.

• 20:42Ramit Sethi?

  So if you've ever heard an AI voice that sounds real and natural, there's a good chance it's from 11 Labs. My team and I actually use 11 Labs. And if I needed AI voice and chat agents, I would use 11 Agents. If you're looking to improve your customer service experience, check out 11 Agents. If you run a business or handle customer operations across support, sales, or marketing, you can start with a demo at 11labs.io/ramit. See how 11 Agents can fit into your workflows and help build experiences that your customers will actually love. 11labs.io/ramit. That's E-L-E-V-E-N-L-A-B-S dot I-O slash ramit.

• 21:27Ramit Sethi?

  Welcome back. Now let's check out Evelyn and Mike's basement.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  So for some folks, basements are pretty scary. My basement's scary too, but for reasons that you may not expect, which is, the basement is a fun house for my husband's hobby, fishing. And as you can see here, there are a few backpacks, one, two, three. We have here a fish finder, an expensive contraption, GPS for finding fish, which I'm sure ancient fishermen also used. And then we have a lot of fishing poles here, as well as every kind of colored plastic and doodad under the sea to attract fish. On this side here, oh, what do you see? More fishing poles. And then here, behind door number one, we have a kayak of several hundred dollars, used exclusively for fishing.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  We live in Minnesota, so there are a lot of lakes, and Mike is doing a great job capitalizing on that, at the expense of cold hard cash. And then here, the scary-looking thing that I thought belonged to a Russian mafia member. This actually holds ice fishing poles. And then don't get me started on these boxes, plus the fun noodle, I don't know why that's here. Just reminds me of a lot of PayPal transactions that I do not want to see. So that's why the basement's scary to me. It is a graveyard for hard-earned money.

• 22:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, alright. Thank you for the tour. How many fishing poles do you have?

• 23:02Ramit Sethi?

  Uh, maybe about eight, in use. Is that normal? Wait, what? Wow, the crowd is very strong feelings about fishing. Holy [bleep]. Hey, I'm not trying to get in a fight with any fishing people in here. I don't know anything about fishing.

• 23:18Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what the hell's happening right now? Is that a lot, or a little? That's a little amount of fishing poles.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 23:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay, okay, God.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  If I include the kids in my ice fishing pool, sure, maybe like 20.

• 23:35Ramit Sethi?

  Twen- 20? Wait, that's... Wait a minute. Thank you for flagging that. Okay.

• 23:42Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you like... What does it mean to you to be... to go fishing?

• 23:46Speaker 02

  I... What does it mean to me?

• 23:48Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Like, why do you like fishing?

• 23:50Speaker 02

  I enjoy it. I think the way I look at it is fishing is like a problem to solve. And so every cast, where you cast, what lure you use, what retrieve, it's all like a fun brain problem that, you know, trying to catch a fish.

• 24:07Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. Do you go on your own or do you go with others?

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Generally on my own, but sometimes I'll take the kids ice fishing. We tried... I tried to get her into it, but that didn't go very well.

• 24:19Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay. Evelyn, what do you notice about the way you described the basement and the stuff in it?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  If I was watching that objectively and not as myself, you could tell that I was unhappy and probably a little condescending and not respectful of something that means so much to him.

• 24:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  That being said, on my behalf, I'm just gonna say, you know, we're sitting in a car frequently, you know, on a long car trip, and I'm telling him about my hopes and dreams and my shared rich life. And then all of a sudden, he goes... And I'm like, "Oh, is there like a nude lady outside?" And, "No, it's a lake." And she... He's like, "Think I can fish that?" I mean, that's what I live with, you know? I'm here spilling my guts and he... Every time he sees a lake, it's like, you know, a nude lady out the window.

• 25:12Ramit Sethi?

  So can I ask you, like, first of all, I appreciate you acknowledging how, you know, what you said about the basement, but all jokes aside about the lake stuff, what does it feel like when he talks about fishing a lot?

• 25:30Speaker 01

  I kinda wish he saw me as a problem to solve and leered me with things. You know?

• 25:36Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  So I don't, I don't, it's funny because I don't hate fishing. I just, first of all, I mean, it does cost money, so that's the money factor. But I do think that his love for it, and he falls asleep to fishing YouTube's, is just, sometimes I just joke, I'm like the second woman in his marriage.

• 25:54Ramit Sethi?

  Some commonalities. Unhappy with his spending on food at the state fair. Unhappy with his fishing hobby. You mentioned the amount of money for both of those. Are you aware that you comment about his spending a lot?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 26:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. That's why we're, that's why we're here.

• 26:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How often do you all talk about money?

• 26:23Ramit Sethi?

  Fairly regularly, yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  But not in this like nice, calm manner.

• 26:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:32Ramit Sethi?

  That's an honest answer. So it, does it get heated?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Maybe heated is not the right word.

• 26:40Ramit Sethi?

  What is the word?

• 26:41Speaker 02

  It doesn't, I think maybe I get upset when I start to try and explain certain things and then it doesn't get anywhere and then we table that discussion.

• 26:54Ramit Sethi?

  And then you wait until it comes back up again a few weeks later?

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Or when we, yeah, or when we have to make a decision or whatever.

• 27:00Ramit Sethi?

  It's very common. How does it feel when you are critiquing his spending, Evelyn?

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Are you asking me, how does it feel when I'm, I'm critiquing?

• 27:10Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, how does it feel when you were saying, why are you spending that? There's, there's money, dead money here. How does it feel to you?

• 27:18Speaker 01

  I mean, I, that's a funny question. I mean, I feel right. Or I feel entitled, probably.

• 27:26Ramit Sethi?

  Entitled means?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Meaning that I have every right to be asking him these questions about his hobbies and how much she spends on them.

• 27:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How did you grow up with money?

• 27:38Speaker 01

  We were never on want. I grew up in Silicon Valley. On weekends, we would go to my friends mansions after their parents' companies IPOed. So I grew up around a lot of wealth. At the same time, I don't think my parents really taught me a whole lot about money. So as a result of that, my general principle in life is just to not spend it.

• 27:57Ramit Sethi?

  Let's all try to understand the clues here. You grew up around incredible wealth. Your parents taught you, basically, don't spend it, that's it.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  No, they were actually very generous, exceedingly generous with their money. They weren't tech people, but they were, we were never on want, but we, you know, we went to the Hyatt, we went to France, it was very nice, drove a Mercedes. But I, they didn't ever taught me about how to make money, how to save money, taxes, any of that stuff. So if anything, I was angry that they spent so much on me. Like, they bought me two new cars, and I was like, I never asked for this.

• 28:34Ramit Sethi?

  What did you do with the cars?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I drove them.

• 28:37Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  But I think as a result of that, I'm a little bit more tight with my purse because I saw that generosity and I didn't know where it was coming from. And I, myself, do not feel as generous.

• 28:50Ramit Sethi?

  You don't feel as generous?

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:53Ramit Sethi?

  Generous to whom?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Anybody.

• 28:56Ramit Sethi?

  To yourself?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Even to myself, yeah.

• 28:59Ramit Sethi?

  To your husband?

• 29:01Speaker 01

  I definitely don't feel generous to him. I mean, when I go to Trader Joe's and I see the chicken breast, I will always pick the $5.02 one over the $5.05 to save 3 cents.

• 29:13Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  On a chicken breast. Because this, you know, it's easier than actually knowing my finances, to just round down to whatever's cheapest.

• 29:20Ramit Sethi?

  So your view of the world is, let me spend less?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Because I don't really know how much we have. Correct.

• 29:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, all right.

• 29:33Ramit Sethi?

  Shall we take a look at the numbers?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 29:37Ramit Sethi?

  Let's pop it up. I'm about to open Evelyn and Mike's Conscious Spending Plan, which breaks down their net worth, their income, where they spend their money. You can download a template of the Conscious Spending Plan for free at iwt.com/csp. Can you refresh everybody of both your ages?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  I'm 21, 20th edition.

• 30:01Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh, thank you.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  We're both 41.

• 30:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, great. So, assets 800,000. Investments 1 million. Wow, wow, give it up.

• 30:13Ramit Sethi?

  You know what? That's something I love about our community. We see, sometimes we see people who have hundreds of thousands of debt. Sometimes we see people who are multimillionaires. But each time, this crowd supports them. And I love you for that. So, thank you. Savings 177,000. Debt 520. Total net worth 1.5 million. Gross annual income 317,000 dollars. That's a lot, right? What do you think about that?

• 30:43Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm employed now, so we'll see if that goes down.

• 30:46Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, that was a depressing answer.

• 30:54Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Fixed costs 40%. That's low. What do we know? All right. You guys can cheer that if you want. Yeah, that's pretty good. Usually, just for those of you who don't know, typically, recommendation 50 to 60%. Fixed costs are where most people overspend, and it's where they start to feel stressed out, even though they don't realize it. They tend to spend, overspend, on two areas. One, house. Two, car. Okay? I'm not trying to get in a fight in the Midwest about trucks. I know my audience. We can talk about that another time. You guys own a truck?

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Hell, no.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  I mean, maybe one day if I have a boat.

• 31:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, okay, all right.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Cost me one wife.

• 31:38Ramit Sethi?

  Investments are around 11%. Savings at 24%, which is quite high. That's 24% of net. Guilt-free spending at 29%. Okay? It sounds a bit high, but great. It sounds a bit high relative to what I think you actually spend. I don't really think you spend that much. But maybe I'm wrong. All right. Overall, looking at the numbers you prepared, what do you think about them?

• 32:01Ramit Sethi?

  I'm gonna let you answer that, because I know what I think.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, yeah, like I said, I think if in the financial literacy report card, I'm probably like a D plus. So it sounds great, but I'm a little worried about how much we're spending guilt free.

• 32:20Ramit Sethi?

  So that's very interesting. In the financial literacy scorecard, you're a D, but in critiquing spending, what are you?

• 32:32Speaker 01

  I'm an A.

• 32:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Mike, how does it, you manage the day-to-day finances?

• 32:39Speaker 02

  For the most part, yeah.

• 32:40Ramit Sethi?

  If I were to ask you some question about debt, or some ratio, or whatever percentage, would you know, would you roughly know the answer?

• 32:48Speaker 02

  I could figure it out, yeah.

• 32:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How does it feel to be scrutinized over $5 purchases when you are the one managing the money?

• 32:58Speaker 02

  I mean, that emotion will come in handy again, but again, it's why we, the frustration of why are we arguing over a $5 thing, whether it's a ticket, a cup of coffee, one fishing lure.

• 33:14Ramit Sethi?

  Have you ever sat down and looked at the numbers together?

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes, I've tried to explain it. We had a, we have an advisor, so I've tried to review it and try and explain whether it sticks or not. But I think for you, Evelyn, it doesn't really matter about what you see, because it's how you feel about money.

• 33:38Ramit Sethi?

  Because money is not just numbers on a page, as we see right here in front of us.

• 33:46Ramit Sethi?

  I just want to cut in quickly, because this is a dynamic I see with a lot of couples. And it is the reason that I always say it is crucial for both partners to be involved in the family finances. You cannot just have one money person. What's happening here is Evelyn is essentially burying her head in the sand when it comes to her family finances, which allows her to continue her personal story of we don't have enough.

• 34:14Ramit Sethi?

  If Evelyn were involved in managing the money, or if she were willing to even sit down and review their finances on a monthly basis, she would start to understand where they actually are with their finances. They're actually more than fine. But because she intentionally turns away from understanding their financial picture, she has created this story of scarcity. It's not real, but it feels real to her. Your feelings matter. Your feelings are real, but your feelings also can lie to you.

• 34:50Ramit Sethi?

  It's kind of interesting how people react differently to caffeine. Some people get super jittery with coffee. Some people prefer tea. I've found it to be really fun to try to test different sources of caffeine and find what works for me. Sometimes it's a black coffee. Sometimes it's matcha. And there's a new way for you to try out a different source of caffeine, one that will not cause you to have a massive energy crash. That's Element's new Lemonade Iced Tea. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte drink made specifically to replace essential electrolytes lost throughout the day. It's used by professional sports teams, Navy SEALs, Olympic athletes, and my wife loves it. Now Element has launched their Lemonade Iced Tea,

• 35:33Ramit Sethi?

  made with full-spectrum black tea extract, not isolated caffeine added in later. It's built on the same formula as Element's core drink mix, with a meaningful dose of electrolytes, no sugar, no artificial colors, no other weird ingredients. Get a free eight-count Element sample pack with any purchase at drinklmnt.com/ramit. That's drinklmnt.com/ramit. Try it totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back, no questions asked.

• 36:06Ramit Sethi?

  I have a simple rule in my life. If it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist. If it's important to me, I want to put it on my calendar. Work meetings, haircuts, dinners with friends, taking a trip. This calendar is shared so that other important people in my life can also get on the same page. Now, if you're trying to figure out your schedule for you and your kids, your family, that becomes even more complicated, which is why so many families love Skylight Calendar. Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together for more time. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, etc., making it easier to instantly look at your day, week, or month plans.

• 36:48Ramit Sethi?

  With Skylight Calendar, you can manage events, chores, and grocery lists by assigning colors for each of your family members, meaning no one can say they didn't know what they needed to do. My coworkers say it's a game changer for their families. Plus, it comes with a four-month, 100% happiness guarantee. If you don't love it after four months, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/ramit. Go to myskylight.com/ramit for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T.com/ramit.

• 37:33Ramit Sethi?

  I'm curious to know why. Why is she doing it? Mike says he tries to include her in the conversations around money. He's tried to help her understand where they were with their money, but she avoids it. And I want to know, where does it come from? Listen in as I push her to understand more. Evelyn, I'm curious, why have you not learned about your family finances?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  You know, I remember as a child, when we would go to like Target or Safeway, which is a grocery store, I would always run away at the end when my mom was totaling the, like, you know, the cash register gives you a receipt and totals the bill. And I just remember viscerally always wanting to run away. I didn't want to know how much it cost. I don't know why that is. Probably should unpack that with a therapist. But I think that carries over where I don't really, I don't like dealing with the numbers, for whatever reason. I will say that this probably looks good, but where my chief frustration is, is I just want limitations. So if Mike said, "I'm gonna spend $500 a year on fishing," be with God. Go for it.

• 38:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Mike, what's your reaction right there?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Every time we've had that conversation, we've come back to the, "Well, what is the starting number? How do we agree on a starting number? Separately, how do we track it?"

• 38:51Speaker 02

  And that's always gonna fall onto me to have to create a number that she agrees to and then individually track everything, which that's not worth my time.

• 38:59Ramit Sethi?

  Can I ask you a question?

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:00Ramit Sethi?

  Have you ever asked her to come with a number? And to explain it?

• 39:08Speaker 02

  I haven't. I mean, if she would love to, want to do that, I'd welcome it.

• 39:13Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on.

• 39:16Ramit Sethi?

  Notice the role that each of you have fallen into. You're at opposite ends of the ring. So one person says,

• 39:25Ramit Sethi?

  "If only he came up with a number, we need limits, I would be perfectly fine." Mike is over here shaking his head like, "No, we've tried that." But then, when you dig into it,

• 39:39Ramit Sethi?

  you accept the premise, Mike, that you are the one who has to come up with the number. Why?

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Because she'll throw a random number out that I probably won't agree with.

• 39:52Ramit Sethi?

  Do you ask her, "Where'd that number come from? What does it mean to you?"

• 39:57Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, if I asked that, I think she was like, "Well, that sounds how much I would want you to spend at most." I don't know.

• 40:03Ramit Sethi?

  Evelyn, would you agree?

• 40:04Speaker 01

  I mean, there's a lot of assumptions wrapped up in there. You know, we have friends who like track their budgets very tightly and have a line item for travel, a line item for clothing, a line item for toys. And I think maybe that's what I think I want. It's just some limitations so that we can have more freedom versus having to make micro decisions about every little purchase. And then in that case, I will just spend the least and he'll just spend whatever he wants.

• 40:28Ramit Sethi?

  Go ahead, Mike.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  But we're older, we don't need to track every line item. We can do a top-down approach.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think for me, it's less, again, about the actual money statistics and more about the feeling of having limitations.

• 40:42Ramit Sethi?

  Then why are we not talking about feelings and we're talking about a spreadsheet?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Because the tangible is always easier than the intangible.

• 40:48Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Many of us chase the idea of a budget for our entire lives. And we self-flagellate. It's, in many ways, very religious. We punish ourselves as if that pain means that we are doing the right thing. When ultimately, all along, we don't actually need 500 lines on a budget. I don't have a budget. I track four key numbers. I know my numbers. I trust myself. I trust even if I make a mistake, I will catch it. And then I spend more time working on this. The feeling of money. Feeling good, feeling joyous, feeling all those things.

• 41:32Ramit Sethi?

  How much time do you spend feeling good about money?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Probably none.

• 41:37Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's what I thought. Evelyn, what did your mom teach you about money?

• 41:41Speaker 01

  My mother?

• 41:42Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Well, she didn't work much, and she liked nice things in life. And never really talked about how much those things cost. So that's about it. That's pretty much it. Money is a ways to enjoy your life.

• 41:59Ramit Sethi?

  What were the conversations about money in your family?

• 42:02Speaker 01

  I don't think we really had any. And I'm very fortunate where I went to two expensive schools that my parents paid for. I, in some ways, resent them because I wish I felt the pain of those things more so I could understand it better. I mean, that sounds really bougie and first-world, but like, you know?

• 42:20Ramit Sethi?

  That's a huge clue. Say it again.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  I wish my parents allowed me to suffer a little bit more in terms of money so I could understand how to, like, I could understand more about it.

• 42:31Ramit Sethi?

  Aren't you suffering now?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  I am. I am suffering now. And that's, I mean, but unfortunately, it's my new family that's suffering.

• 42:38Ramit Sethi?

  That is correct. Wow, that's very insightful. So you wish that your parents made you, quote, "suffer." That's an interesting choice of words. Some might say, "I wish my parents taught me about money." But it's an interesting choice. "I wish my parents made me suffer." But they didn't. I resented them for not, in fact, I resented them for giving me these cars. And because of this story that I told myself from years ago, I wish they made me suffer. I'm now going to make myself suffer. How? By not learning the numbers, by instead policing my husband's eating and fishing.

• 43:19Ramit Sethi?

  Again, you all make a lot of money in a relatively low cost of living area, I think. Medium, certainly not a very high cost of living city. And suffer. What do you think about that?

• 43:32Speaker 01

  I don't know if I want to introduce another dimension because I don't know if we have time. But the reason why we make so much money is also because I look for jobs that make a lot of money. Because I don't actually know how much our financial situation is. So in some ways, there's good parts of this lack of knowledge is that I will just pursue things that, like I've made more money than him for the last six, seven years. And in some ways, I feel like even if I don't know the numbers, I'm contributing more to them. And also, at the same time, I'm not spending as much.

• 44:05Ramit Sethi?

  And what does that make you?

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Better.

• 44:10Ramit Sethi?

  Do you really believe that?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  I probably do subconsciously, yeah.

• 44:15Ramit Sethi?

  What did your mom say about your dad when you grew up?

• 44:18Speaker 01

  What'd she say about him?

• 44:23Speaker 01

  I mean, he was self, like a self-made person, I think. I still don't know what he really did to this day. And that, I guess she wished that he made more, maybe. But I'm choosing my words carefully because my dad's still alive. And if he watches this, I don't want him to feel humiliated.

• 44:44Ramit Sethi?

  So she was critical of his earning abilities?

• 44:48Speaker 01

  I don't know about critical. I mean, again, all this stuff was kind of like sheep over our eyes. I did not know really where anything was coming from at any time. I suspect there was tension about keeping up with the Joneses because he lived in Silicon Valley, which, you know, everybody's rich. So I suspect there was tension there. And then because my mom and dad didn't have traditional jobs, there was just like a huge gap of knowledge about what it means to make money.

• 45:13Ramit Sethi?

  Do you see any similarities between your parents' relationship with money and yours?

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the fact that I'm perpetuating not really knowing.

• 45:21Ramit Sethi?

  Not knowing. What else? Pushing me to earn more.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Pushing him to earn more.

• 45:26Ramit Sethi?

  Yep.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  I mean, they didn't, I think I spend less than they do.

• 45:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what else? Any, how about comparison?

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Comparisons, yeah.

• 45:34Ramit Sethi?

  We should be making this, our friends make more, that kind of thing?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Yes, and again, this is another corollary, which is Mike and I spent a lot of our lives first, you know, in our 30s, working for nonprofits. Because I'm, you know, we're very idealistic, we're religious, and I feel a little resentful now because I feel like we're behind. I didn't start working in the private sector till, you know, almost three years ago. He was at a nonprofit for seven years.

• 46:01Ramit Sethi?

  So if you're behind, that means?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  We need to make more.

• 46:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so, so basically, life is, we are behind, even though I don't know the numbers at all, I just feel behind, and so therefore, we need to get the cheapest chicken, no fishing gear, no funnel cakes, and I understand, and then when does it end? When do you have enough?

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Uh, it doesn't end.

• 46:24Ramit Sethi?

  Right, that's it, that's, that's life. You, you, you, you live here, you raise your kids here, and then you die, feeling like you never had enough. Does anybody know people like this? This is their life. This is it, and why? Because they didn't take the time to learn the two parts of a rich life. Number one, know your numbers, it's not hard. You two are obviously very intelligent, it's not hard. It's just like learning the basic language of money, it's very simple. And two, learn how to master your money psychology. Two things, they're not hard, but they take an effort. The way Evelyn describes her wish list, or what I'll call rules of engagement around money,

• 47:10Ramit Sethi?

  are very telling. She says she wishes her parents made her suffer. She wants to have limitations around money, and she just gave me a major clue that explains the language she uses around money, which is that, she is religious. Now, I see this combination with lots of people. When people tell me that they need to be limited, they even use phrases like, "I like when my partner puts me in my place. Sometimes I get too crazy." We have religious issues often, not always, but often. We also often have gender issues, again, not always, but often. And sometimes, we have people who simply believe, "If you let me do what I'm gonna do, I'll go crazy. I'm out of control.

• 47:54Ramit Sethi?

  Therefore, I need someone to keep me grounded." We hear this all the time. Whenever I see somebody saying, "I need limits put on me," I'll often ask them, "Are you religious?" And often, they have these beliefs they grew up with that they're born in sin, and if you don't have limits and restraints, you're not virtuous. And also, I find that people who use these phrases about wanting limits often want approval from an authority figure. And that authority figure could be God. It could be your parents. Sometimes it's me. But the ultimate lesson of a rich life is that you do not need anyone's permission to live it. You certainly don't need mine. I don't know about God. That's between you and God. But the ultimate lesson of living a rich life

• 48:39Ramit Sethi?

  is that it starts right here. And the tricky part of designing your rich life is that, once you leave your parents' home, once you become an adult, there is no natural authority to take on that role. I suspect that's partially why Evelyn applied to talk to me in the first place. Now, I'm glad I have all this information. I'm glad I understand the context a little bit more, because now we can work to bridge these things together. What Evelyn doesn't know yet is that she can absolutely be religious and feel good about money. That is the challenge for me to help her understand. And I'm curious if there are also some gender roles here, since Evelyn has historically earned more than Mike.

• 49:20Ramit Sethi?

  Listen as I include the audience to help Evelyn understand she's not alone. I am curious, for the ladies in the audience, how many were told, by a show of hands, "You cannot rely on a man for money." Wow, look at that. Look at that. And, second question, how many of you were told to keep a secret account? Look at that. Wow.

• 49:57Ramit Sethi?

  Evelyn, how much of this is gender issues, cultural issues? How much of this dynamic do you think has some of that to bear here?

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I'm sure some of it is cultural. You know, we're Asian, so there's a certain level of frugality, at least in our culture, that comes with that. I mean, his mom is fairly frugal, so I can identify with that on his side. And then from a gender perspective, I don't know if there's so much of that as much. He has no issues with me making more money than he does. And...

• 50:34Ramit Sethi?

  What if he made more than you?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Great.

• 50:37Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah? Is that for real, or is that a joke?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  For real. I mean, he got a job this year, and I think the amount of time we spent arguing on me asking him to negotiate higher was a lot of arguments.

• 50:48Ramit Sethi?

  Can I ask you, what if you simply didn't do that?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  I would probably need some sort of violent hobby.

• 50:58Ramit Sethi?

  Like, my wife has her own business.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:01Ramit Sethi?

  I'm an entrepreneur. I've been an entrepreneur for a long time. I could certainly critique her. I could tell her, like, "Your funnel is not optimized the way I would do it," or something. How do you think that would affect our relationship? Me telling her how to run her business?

• 51:19Speaker 01

  I think if it was said lovingly in the right context, she might invite it. But if it was uninvited...

• 51:24Ramit Sethi?

  [bleep] that.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Uninvited, she probably wouldn't appreciate it.

• 51:27Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, that was a totally wrong answer. I told him before, there's no wrong answers onstage. That was the wrong answer.

• 51:34Ramit Sethi?

  You know, I'll tell you something. I understand encouraging your partner to negotiate their salary if they don't know how, or if you're early on, or you don't have a lot of money, and you need money to feed your family. I understand that. You have to be aggressive. I get that. I wonder when you turn the page and shift from "we need to get more and spend less" to, turn the page, "we need connection."

• 52:08Ramit Sethi?

  What is more valuable to you right now? An extra $1,000 or connection?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  $1,000.

• 52:15Ramit Sethi?

  Put that CSP back up on screen. Evelyn, I don't want jokes. I want a serious answer.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  I'm serious, and I will also say that I know it sounds like I'm this terrible person, but like, it gets us things. You know, I asked for a $10,000 credit when we got our new house because I was like, "We need money to repair something." He's like, "Oh, I don't really know if we want to. We got the 10K."

• 52:34Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, that's so cool.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, like, it gets, you know what I mean? It's not like it's always just gonna impact your relationship badly. Like, sometimes he admits that it's helping to be pushed.

• 52:43Ramit Sethi?

  Hey Evelyn, I noticed you're just like, talking a lot to avoid what the actual important issue is here. Have you noticed you do that?

• 52:51Speaker 01

  The relationship, right?

• 52:52Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 52:54Ramit Sethi?

  Look at those numbers. You're 41, you have a million dollars invested.

• 53:00Ramit Sethi?

  Do you want me to show you how much you're gonna have?

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 53:03Ramit Sethi?

  It's, alright, before I show that, before I show that, I love the enthusiasm. "Yes, show me the compound interest calculation! I've been waiting all night!"

• 53:15Ramit Sethi?

  Has anyone been listening to anything that's happening on stage?

• 53:20Ramit Sethi?

  You said, "I wish someone would tell me that I have enough, and for me to believe them." Okay? Without even looking at your, how much you're gonna have, let's just, like, would it make a difference if some random person told you you have enough? Let's find out. Hey, one person, can you just say, "Tell her if she has enough"?

• 53:44Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, do you believe them?

• 53:48Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, let's let her share her feelings. Go ahead.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  I think this is one of those moments where I know that I'm supposed to feel a certain way, but my heart has not caught up.

• 54:00Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I love that answer. Give her a round of applause. That's a very honest answer. Wow!

• 54:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Ah, I love that. You know you're supposed to feel like that, but your heart hasn't caught up. And so, your conclusion has been? What?

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Fall back on what is natural to me, which is to be stingy and to critique.

• 54:25Ramit Sethi?

  That's right, that's right. And what is the cost of that? Mike?

• 54:30Ramit Sethi?

  Mike, this is your chance to be honest.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Uh, my patience? No.

• 54:35Ramit Sethi?

  Say it in a full sentence, I want to hear it.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  The cost of Evelyn's critique and stinginess is, I mean, unhappiness to some extent.

• 54:45Ramit Sethi?

  You're unhappy, is that what you mean?

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Sometimes, yeah, about that stuff, yeah. Like, we don't need to have this conversation.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Instead, we can enjoy life. I mean, admittedly, she's gotten better, but...

• 54:59Ramit Sethi?

  Wait, wait, wait, just hang right there. You just said something very powerful. Evelyn? He says, "Sometimes, I'm unhappy. We don't have to have this conversation. Instead, we could talk about money in a different way." How do you respond to that? Think very carefully before you respond. How do you want to respond to that? Because I find that incredibly honest.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I agree that something needs to change, which is why we're on the stage.

• 55:29Ramit Sethi?

  Great. That's a great answer. Okay.

• 55:35Ramit Sethi?

  We ran a calculation, simple calculation. By retirement, you will have around $7 million.

• 55:47Ramit Sethi?

  $7 million. So I'm telling you, Evelyn and Mike, you will have enough. Do you believe me?

• 55:57Speaker 01

  You know what's funny? Because like, the back of my head, it's like, we need to check those numbers again.

• 56:01Ramit Sethi?

  We need to do some math. Math is where I feel comfortable.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Or more like, did Mike report correctly?

• 56:08Speaker 01

  So that just tells you that I still have work to do.

• 56:11Ramit Sethi?

  I noticed that when things get honest, you go back into storytelling. And your stories are sometimes jokes, they're sometimes jabs. It's very much like we're on a sitcom. The Costanzas, that type of thing, right? It's very much like that. And I think that, to you, it's comfortable. To me, it's not.

• 56:37Ramit Sethi?

  It would be one thing if you were struggling with money. If you were making $30,000 a year and you have kids. I would, I would understand the frustration. Okay. And we'd have a different conversation. It's not comfortable to me because I see a multimillionaire couple here, which you are. You just need time to let it cook. But I see a couple that is playing so small that you are literally critiquing your husband over sweets at the state fair. Tell me that reaction you have.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  I, I think, I also myself admit that like my view on money has very little to do with our numbers. So I agree with that part.

• 57:21Ramit Sethi?

  And what do you want to do about it? We'll hear Evelyn's answer after a quick break to support our sponsors. You know, I have a program where I teach people how to start and grow their businesses. It's called Earnable. And in that program, I ask the students to text a friend saying, hey, what do you think my top five talents are? After they start getting responses in a few minutes, they are shocked at all of the things they're good at and they didn't even realize it. Having someone reflect back can change everything. That's what growing feels like. That's why I recommend getting therapy so often on this podcast. And Grow Therapy can help you find the right therapist for you. Grow is therapy that works covered by insurance.

• 58:06Ramit Sethi?

  Grow connects you to thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US that work with your schedule. Virtual, in-person sessions, nights, weekends, they have an option that will work for you. You can search by what matters, by identity, specialty, availability, insurance coverage. You can find a therapist who's the right fit for you. Grow makes it easy to book an appointment in minutes and begin sessions in as little as two days. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com/ramit. That's growtherapy.com/ramit. Growtherapy.com/ramit. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

• 58:50Ramit Sethi?

  Now, back to the show. Let's hear what Evelyn is prepared to do to change her mindset around money.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  My view on money has very little to do with our numbers. I agree with that part.

• 59:01Ramit Sethi?

  And what do you want to do about it?

• 59:03Speaker 01

  I need to work on that.

• 59:04Ramit Sethi?

  How?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I am a spiritual person, so in my religion, it'd be like praying and also having behaviors that are more open-minded and generous and self-reflecting than they currently are.

• 59:23Ramit Sethi?

  I like that. Shall we do it right now?

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Which part?

• 59:28Ramit Sethi?

  Let's do some, well, maybe not a prayer, but let's do some behavior stuff. Let's do a little bit of work on the, not the numbers part, but the feelings and psychology part, okay? So, let's say, let's say you are a worrier, okay? That's one of the four money types. It's very common, people worry about money. And worriers worry regardless of how much they have. Many times, they don't even know how much they have. It doesn't matter, because I just showed you, you're gonna have $7 million. Most people, when they heard they were gonna have $7 million, how do you think they would react?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  How would most people react?

• 1:00:05Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  Happily?

• 1:00:08Ramit Sethi?

  Well, why don't we ask the crowd? Hey, everybody, what if I told you you're gonna have $7 million? What the [bleep]?

• 1:00:16Ramit Sethi?

  Do you see, do you see that? Again, I'm not coming down on you. What I'm trying to show, I'm trying to unpeel these layers. I'm trying to show you that $7 million in any city, in any country, in the world, is a huge amount of money, okay? And the lenses that you are wearing, right now, Mike has actual lenses on, but you also have lenses, and they are coloring everything you see. Because the only reaction that the majority of people would have to $7 million is, "Oh, my God." The same thing that the crowd had. But yours was not that. I don't even think you felt that.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 1:00:59Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. I think that you feel restriction. I think that you feel scared of money. I think you worry a lot. And I think that, rather than looking inward, it's very easy to look at the Trader Joe's price and look at your husband's fishing poles.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  And look at my friends and see what they're making.

• 1:01:16Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. So let's change it. Because you have kids, don't you?

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  We have three girls.

• 1:01:23Ramit Sethi?

  What are your girl, what's the oldest, age of the oldest?

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  So we have an eight-year-old, a seven-year-old, and a four-year-old.

• 1:01:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, congratulations. What, what does the oldest think about money?

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Well, they're, we're trying to teach them about money by having chores and allowance. So she's understanding things aren't just free, or like, I can't have everything. You know, if she wants something that I don't want to buy, then we can tell her, "Well, then you can use your allowance money that you earned." So she's learning, I think.

• 1:01:54Ramit Sethi?

  I like that.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  She's understanding.

• 1:01:56Ramit Sethi?

  First of all, round of applause for any parent who teaches their kids about money. Amazing, at any age. I appreciate that. What is she learning about her mom and money? Evelyn?

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  I don't know what she's learning. I mean, I think she...

• 1:02:10Ramit Sethi?

  That's why we brought her out tonight, everybody.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  I wish. I don't know, I don't know what she's learning, but I mean, we implemented this new system in the, in the, this summer, and I think it is bearing fruit. I can see the wheels in her, turning in her head, like cost-benefit analysis. So hopefully that leads to good things. True, right?

• 1:02:29Ramit Sethi?

  That's good. Can I just cut to the chase? I'm just gonna tell you what I think is gonna happen. I think that three girls seeing a mom who worries constantly about money, they are soon going to see over and over and over that the role of mom is to worry about money. The role of mom is to critique dad. The role of mom is to shrink herself because spending less makes you virtuous. And that is what they are going to do in their future relationships. How does that strike you?

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  You're probably right.

• 1:03:04Ramit Sethi?

  Do you want your daughters 25 years from now to be worried, racked with guilt, while they have a high-paying job, critiquing their husband, husband not feeling good about it? Do you want that?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:03:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. I think the stakes are higher than we even realize. It's not about the basement. It's not about $10 here and there. It's, it's about the messages that we receive, generation after generation. So I'm gonna give you a couple of things you can do immediately. Some advice for the worrier. Evelyn, what do you get out of worrying?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  I get an expectation that will not feel as hard if it comes to life.

• 1:03:56Ramit Sethi?

  Good. What else? When you're in the process of critiquing, how do you feel? You said it before.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:04:03Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, you feel right, or righteous.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:05Ramit Sethi?

  I'm right. He has to defend himself.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:10Ramit Sethi?

  Worst-case scenario, you spend $6 on chicken breast. You get an extra whatever thing at the restaurant. Worst-case scenario, after 25 years, where are you?

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  The same place.

• 1:04:27Ramit Sethi?

  $7 million in the bank, compounding every single day?

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  This is not what I expected it to be tonight, by the way. I would have prepared myself better, done some more push-ups.

• 1:04:41Ramit Sethi?

  Sometimes the things we have to do are not obvious, and they're actually the most important.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Do you have nothing for him? Is it all gonna be me? That's not why I applied.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  I definitely saw this coming.

• 1:05:15Ramit Sethi?

  You're doing great. You're doing great. This takes a lot of courage. You're both doing great.

• 1:05:22Ramit Sethi?

  This crowd knows what is happening right now. I know that right now, like, the lights are on, there's a lot of noise. This is not a normal situation. I know that. But I can tell you, this crowd knows, just by the applause they just gave, they can see that something is about to happen. Okay? And they can see that both of you are being honest. I know, Mike, it's not easy for you to talk about feelings. I know that. But I recognize that you are trying. And Evelyn, I know that it's not easy for you to talk about this, and I think you would be much more comfortable with us talking about, you know, are you compounding at the correct rate? But that's not what's really important. It's your relationship, and it's your kids that is important. And we are looking at all of these things through the lens of money tonight.

• 1:06:08Ramit Sethi?

  Okay? So stick with me.

• 1:06:11Ramit Sethi?

  I asked, "What is the worst that can happen if you loosened up a little bit?" And you said, "Maybe nothing. Maybe you end up with $50,000 less at retirement." There's no material difference for your lifestyle if you lose 50, 100, 250,000 dollars. Not lose, spend. And more importantly, now, think about your partner. Let's fast forward. You have two paths in the road. 20 years from now, your partner can feel how he feels today, but compounded. How do you think he would feel 20 years from now, still getting critiqued about random expenses?

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  He'd probably tune me out at some point.

• 1:06:55Ramit Sethi?

  That's gonna happen, like, soon. What happens then?

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Then we grow apart.

• 1:07:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. It's a lack of connection. It's not great for you, it's not great for your kids to see, it's not great for anybody. And all for what? Because you actually have enough money and there's actually no reason for it. So, we're gonna do something called the worry box. We're gonna take some of your worries and we're just gonna put them in a box and we're gonna lock them up. We're gonna let them. I used to do this when I was in college. Freshman year, you're meeting a lot of people, you're a little anxious about stuff. Before I went to sleep sometimes, I would mentally take some of these things. Take that thing, put it in a box, seal it up, and I knew it was in the box. I could go to sleep then. So, let's do that right now. What is an expense that you worry about that is completely inconsequential?

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  It's me, again? Okay. Inconsequential. I mean, he just lost his auger.

• 1:07:54Ramit Sethi?

  What is that?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  So, it's like a drill and he lost it on the bottom of a lake.

• 1:07:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. I wish I hadn't asked this question. There's nothing I care less about than tools.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  I told him I would actually go dive in into this frozen lake to go get it, instead of him having to buy it.

• 1:08:07Ramit Sethi?

  What the [bleep]? What? Damn. Okay, so that was not what I was asking. I thought you were gonna say like, "A stick of gum. It's only cost a dollar. I'm not gonna worry about it anymore." You got anything like that? Chicken?

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  I mean, right before the show, I was like, "Hey, I'll buy you dinner." And she was asking, like, "Okay, what's nearby that we can pick up?" And I was like, "Sweetgreen." And your first response was, "Well, it's expensive." And I was like, "It's fine. We'll buy you a sweetgreen salad."

• 1:08:36Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on. Gross annual income, $317,904. What the [bleep]? This is our worry box. Are you comfortable putting this in the worry box?

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  My sweetgreen salad?

• 1:08:47Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, something that you are not going to worry about anymore. You're not gonna worry here, here, and you're certainly not gonna worry about it with your partner. If he wants sweetgreen, buy the sweetgreen.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:09:00Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that was the least convincing answer I ever heard. Should we go smaller? I don't mind. You tell me. I want you to give... Do you understand the concept of what we're doing right now?

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  I understand the concept. Are you basically giving a carte blanche to like, buy whatever we want all the time?

• 1:09:13Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  So if he wants to buy like, you know, a $30,000 fishing boat tomorrow, you're like, "Go do it."

• 1:09:18Ramit Sethi?

  No, we're not talking about fishing boat. We're talking about sweetgreen.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Principle's the same.

• 1:09:24Ramit Sethi?

  Do you notice that you immediately assume that your partner will do the worst?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, cuz he's been talking about a fishing boat for quite some time.

• 1:09:33Ramit Sethi?

  I mean, I'm looking at your numbers right now. I don't see any evidence of any irresponsible spending. If anything, I see extremely high income, very low fixed costs. I have no concerns that one of you is gonna trip, fall, and spend all of your money. Zero. And honestly, what a way to go through life. To worry about all the things that can go wrong with my partner, you know, father of our children, instead of saying, "Babe, I trust you. I love you. I know that if you were ever gonna make a major decision, we would talk about it. But in general, I trust you." What about that?

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  I would like to get to that place. I'm not there right now.

• 1:10:09Ramit Sethi?

  I agree. But let's start. Let's pick something that jointly the two of you have carte blanche to spend on. What is it?

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Food?

• 1:10:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, food?

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a big expense.

• 1:10:24Ramit Sethi?

  Like eating out?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Or even, he likes buying prime meat versus choice meat.

• 1:10:29Ramit Sethi?

  Great, love it. So, like, for example, if you were to say, "I want to get this steak," what would your reaction be?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  I think the old Evelyn would be like, "How much did it cost?"

• 1:10:37Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  And the new Evelyn would be like, "Go for it, let's eat some meat tonight."

• 1:10:45Ramit Sethi?

  Yo! That was pretty good! Okay, you know what I love? I love that you are, you're in this with us. I know that it takes a while to feel it here. I know that. But sometimes the way to feel it is just to say it. Over and over. And to notice your reaction, your partner's reaction. We can actually use money to bring us together. And it can start with something quite modest. A Sweetgreen. If my partner wants to get a salad, what difference does it make for a couple with your kind of finances if he wants to get extra chicken? Or if she wants to go to this place versus that? It makes no difference!

• 1:11:30Ramit Sethi?

  And there's actually a beauty in abundance. We're talking about your husband saying, "I want to get Sweetgreen," and you responding joyfully, not critically. And compound that one times, 10 times, 1,000 times. He will start to see the two of you building a connection. You will actually start to feel it. And by the way, your daughters will see it. It's gonna take work. Do you see what I'm getting at?

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  I see what you're getting at. I will admit that it'll take me a while.

• 1:12:02Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, fair enough. Another thing that I want to point out is, in addition to some work that you have to do here, which I would actually recommend speaking to a therapist. I'm always de-stigmatizing mental health. My wife and I have gone, it's so helpful. I think it would be great. And I would also encourage individual, I think it's awesome. I want to point out that it is very easy to critique others when you don't have skin in the game. I used to, I've taken some friends on trips. And the first couple of times I did it, I just planned everything because I love to travel. And I got a lot of this. Let me show you.

• 1:12:41Ramit Sethi?

  Like, real like, "Why did we have to go here? This is taking too long," that kind of thing. And I kind of took an honest inventory and realized what was going on. What do you think was going on in those trips? I was planning it all. I was doing all the logistics. So I made a shift, which is every person was responsible for at least half a day. Skin in the game. And when you realize how hard it is to plan something, suddenly you have a lot of generosity for the other people. What would that look like if you put skin in the game with your finances as opposed to Mike managing all of it?

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, to your earlier point about setting limits and stuff, like, I should probably understand our numbers better and then maybe we can work on it together versus... Currently, my view is just like, "I'll make the money and then you will manage it." And I think that is not a...

• 1:13:31Ramit Sethi?

  And then you will critique it, constantly.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So that is the toxic relationship we have right now, to detox it. I need to learn more about our finances and have skin in the game, to your point.

• 1:13:46Ramit Sethi?

  Love that, great. And Mike, you have to be willing to stand up and to say, "Let's talk about what that looks like. Here's my expectation for you. Here's what I learned. I learned these four numbers, et cetera. I will help you as much as you want, but my expectation is that you read this book. I will teach you to be rich, money for couples, et cetera." Is that you understand these numbers and let's talk about it. My expectation is that I would... That you plan our next money meeting because I want to talk about this. I've been wanting to talk for a long time. Do you think you can do that?

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can definitely ask her to try.

• 1:14:31Ramit Sethi?

  Let me ask that again.

• 1:14:34Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think you can do that?

• 1:14:37Speaker 02

  I think, in my head, I was like, "Yes, I can ask her to do that." I also foresee the a million questions that may come with trying that.

• 1:14:45Ramit Sethi?

  And when she asks you a million questions, what are you gonna do?

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  Affirm, acknowledge.

• 1:14:51Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  And not.

• 1:14:53Ramit Sethi?

  Go ahead.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think, again, thinking in my head, I think the, yes, affirming, acknowledging that she's trying would be the good answer. I think part of me would probably just like, well, I've told you this before. Or, you know, and then that devolves into an argument.

• 1:15:13Ramit Sethi?

  There's a lot of built in resentment and a lot of us have it, a lot of us. When you have something that you've disagreed with your partner on, that's important for years. You can, you can see when I ask, you know, like a very simple question, do you think you can do that? I can see that there's so much under the surface. You're already thinking, if I ask her this, she's gonna say this, then I'm gonna say that, then we're gonna fight. I can see that. That's normal. That's where a therapist can really help you facilitate with tools. But I also think that you two have to see the stakes here. The stakes are a lot bigger than you think. This isn't about fishing and it's not about salad. It's about the two of you, it's about your daughters, it's about working as a team.

• 1:15:57Ramit Sethi?

  If you go on the way you are, each of you in your own ring, as you described it Evelyn, you will calcify that. You will each become more and more individualistic, more and more disconnected about money. Luckily, you'll have money. But what a tragedy to have a lot of money and not even be connected over it. What's the point of it all? Why do we work so hard if we're not gonna actually feel joy? You are in such a fortunate position to have money, to have a family. What a tragedy to not take advantage of it. So the theme that I'm gonna give you for this year is teammates. And my suggestion for you would be, go home.

• 1:16:41Ramit Sethi?

  Don't talk about money for the rest of the evening. Just let it sit, because there's a lot. We really scraped the surface and we're just getting into how much there is. But just think about this. This is the only question you have to ask yourself in the next 24 hours. If we were truly a team, what would it look and feel like? Do you feel confident you could come up with those answers separately and then bring them together?

• 1:17:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Evelyn says yes. Mike? He says a confident yes. Hey, everybody, do you think that they can think about what it takes to be a team together? I think so too. Thank you very much.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:17:29Ramit Sethi?

  Give it up, Evelyn and Mike, thank you very much. Wow.

• 1:17:41Ramit Sethi?

  That takes a lot of courage. Can we give it up for them again? Evelyn and Mike? Damn.

• 1:17:48Ramit Sethi?

  Honestly, I love that. I love the honesty. This is the reason I said I love hearing real stories from real people. Like, who do you know that would, that would talk about going to the state fair? And we're talking about these tiny purchases that seem inconsequential, but they actually expose so much of how we become disconnected over money. Like, to the outside, they go, "That's, that doesn't make any sense. That's crazy. You have the money." They're approaching it like we're robots. But we're not. You can see it. You saw the numbers. They were great. But it's not about that. That doesn't change the way we feel. And so, over and over and over again,

• 1:18:29Ramit Sethi?

  I want to show you all the different ways that people think about money and feel about money where they're not the same. They're different. They're disconnected. When you start to see that, you can start to change the way you think about money, talk about money, behave with money, and feel with money. Now, I have a special surprise for you guys tonight. I can't come to Chicago without seeing one of my favorite guests. You might recognize him from a little show on Netflix called How to Get Rich. Let's take a look.

• 1:19:03Speaker 04

  I can't take care of my life right now. And it's like, I don't... Mike is kind of all I have. Because I rely on him so much and I don't want to, like... We're a team and I don't feel like I'm pulling my weight right now. Like, I'm tired of feeling lost. I'm tired of feeling I don't have control. And I think my biggest fear is like, what if I'm not fixable?

• 1:19:37Ramit Sethi?

  How's it going?

• 1:19:40Ramit Sethi?

  Drew and Mikey.

• 1:19:43Ramit Sethi?

  Welcome. How you doing?

• 1:19:45Speaker 04

  I really want my pop star diva moment right now. Like, a little espresso, Remi?

• 1:19:50Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have that. How's it going?

• 1:19:53Speaker 04

  Good. How are you?

• 1:19:54Ramit Sethi?

  You guys look great. Drew, I'm thinking back to the first time I ever met you. Wow. I... Let me tell you something. I did not know what was going on. The production team told me, like, oh, we're meeting our next guest at a bar. I walked into this bar and it was packed. It was... Everyone was seated. I walked in and they kind of just ushered me to my seat. In retrospect, everyone on the production crew was like looking at me a lot. And like smiling and looking at me. And, you know, I've been in a freaking bar. I know what it's like. But everyone knew something was about to go down. And then the music turned on. And then...

• 1:20:39Speaker 04

  You saw cross-dressers?

• 1:20:40Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. I was like, yo, I did not expect this. I loved it. I loved it.

• 1:20:50Ramit Sethi?

  You have some moves. Holy [BLEEP]. That was amazing. You were in full drag. And do you remember, we met, we talked a little bit. I got to know you. I remember at the end of our time together, you made a shirt for me, which was very sweet.

• 1:21:09Ramit Sethi?

  Do you remember what that shirt said?

• 1:21:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was your drag name. You're my daughter.

• 1:21:14Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, I'm his drag daughter.

• 1:21:15Speaker 04

  God, I'm so sorry.

• 1:21:17Ramit Sethi?

  What was the name that you gave?

• 1:21:19Speaker 04

  Cass Monet.

• 1:21:22Speaker 04

  We had to name you after your wife, Cass, and then Monet because of money.

• 1:21:26Ramit Sethi?

  I love it. I really loved our time together. And I want to remind everyone where you started at. So when I first met you, where were you financially speaking?

• 1:21:40Speaker 04

  Broke.

• 1:21:42Speaker 04

  You know, I was a server, so I was living shift to shift. You know, there was no consistency. And just, and then in general, the income disparity between me and Mikey was, you know, huge. And it was just stress, nonstop, you know, that feeling of insignificance and just not knowing what to do. Like, we would, he would try and talk to me about the money, and then I would just shut down. Like, my eyes would glaze over, and I'd be like, "Uh-huh." Yeah, he's like, "Did you hear what I said?" Four.

• 1:22:08Ramit Sethi?

  Right.

• 1:22:09Speaker 04

  Like, no.

• 1:22:10Ramit Sethi?

  I remember that, Mikey. You were, you were very supportive. I always remember that. You were very supportive, but it's almost like, no matter what you said, it wasn't reaching Drew.

• 1:22:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, he didn't know how to talk about money at all.

• 1:22:23Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:24Speaker 05

  And we actually, since the show, him and I have had a lot of conversations around it. And I think, I mean, sorry, Mom, Dad, but it really comes down to our parents. Our parents, neither one of them ever talked about money. All we knew was, things get paid, and there was nothing left over.

• 1:22:37Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:38Speaker 05

  So we just never learned how to talk about money in a healthy way.

• 1:22:41Ramit Sethi?

  How many people in the room grew up where you did not talk about money? Let me hear you. Woo! Yeah. Okay, yeah, yeah. Drew, you were also keeping a secret from Mikey.

• 1:22:54Speaker 04

  Which one?

• 1:22:56Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, [bleep]. Well, the only one I knew about was the credit card debt.

• 1:23:00Speaker 04

  The credit card. Yes.

• 1:23:02Ramit Sethi?

  I think it was 5,000 bucks.

• 1:23:03Speaker 04

  5,000.

• 1:23:04Ramit Sethi?

  And that's a big deal. Before you get married, having financial secrets, which are among some of the most intimate for people. I'm curious, how has your relationship with credit changed since we talked?

• 1:23:18Speaker 04

  She's a toxic ex. Like, I'm like, you know, the credit cards got paid off, and I'm like, okay, buy done. Like, you know, they're in a drawer.

• 1:23:25Ramit Sethi?

  Debt-free?

• 1:23:26Speaker 04

  Debt-free. Well, the student loan, but credit card debt-free.

• 1:23:28Ramit Sethi?

  Credit card debt-free?

• 1:23:29Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:23:30Ramit Sethi?

  All right, let's give it up. Damn. Honestly, amazing. Honestly, amazing. When I, when I talk to people who have paid off credit card, one of the credit card debt, one of the first things they say is, "I never want to go back there." Okay, I love that. Mikey, what have you noticed about Drew's relationship with money since the show?

• 1:23:52Speaker 05

  He still spends it. No, he's better at understanding it's a tool, not something to be afraid of. So like this year was kind of rough financially for us, but not as bad as it could have been. But because of what we went through, we were able to do it. Drew's restaurant closed unexpectedly. So of course I went into my baby Mikey mode of no money. We can't spend anything. Then I was like, okay, stop catastrophizing. I make enough for both of us in reality. So we decided for him to go back to school, which was rough on him actually to not make money.

• 1:24:24Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:25Speaker 05

  It was really rough because now he wasn't bringing anything in. And then, so we get out on our merry way on that. And then in July, Brooke told me I'd be laid off in August.

• 1:24:34Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, okay.

• 1:24:35Speaker 05

  So, but we had put plans in place because I don't think it was on the show. And it was like, what would happen if you lose your job? And it made me take a step back, like, what would we do?

• 1:24:44Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Speaker 05

  So we put things in place where, you know, we put everything automatic, which we were almost there. But then we also pulled everything into one account. We did that stuff and I use Quicken. And I was able to say like, we can spend this much money and we'll be fine until, what did I say? September of this year, we'd have been fine.

• 1:25:02Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 1:25:02Speaker 05

  We didn't know that September of this year would have been a problem.

• 1:25:05Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, wow.

• 1:25:06Speaker 05

  So, but Drew was able to like, take that and be like, okay, let's work with what we have. Let's talk through it. Let's really think through what we're spending money on and what we did.

• 1:25:16Ramit Sethi?

  That's quite amazing. So both of you were unemployed during parts of last year. And you both talked about it. You had put plans in place for what if something goes wrong? And you were able to survive, not just survive, but even more than survive this hardship. Can we give it up? That's amazing. That's quite advanced.

• 1:25:42Ramit Sethi?

  You know what's cool? Just like little things like that. You really can tell connection. You know, like it's obvious that the two of you did it together. It's obvious that it wasn't just one person and the other feeling really anxious. It's clear there's a connection. That's exactly what money is about in a relationship. So I appreciate that. When we talked, you were working at a restaurant first, then we talked afterwards and you were going to be going into HR. Update me on that. Where are you now?

• 1:26:08Speaker 04

  We've done another like 360, I feel like, because I realized HR is a little bit of the devil and protects the big bad corporate guy and I was not about to do that. And so now I'm in school, well, because actually the same day I lost my job is the same day I started school and I'm back in school to be a paralegal.

• 1:26:26Ramit Sethi?

  Whoa.

• 1:26:26Speaker 04

  I'll be done in May. So if anyone in here is a lawyer and he's a paralegal in May, DM me and he'll message me.

• 1:26:35Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, all right.

• 1:26:35Speaker 04

  So going to school, paralegal, you know, thinking right now, like because of everything I've experienced as a server, like employment law or also IP law, like with AI and social media. I think IP law is going to be some money, honey, and everyone's always going to need a lawyer and a lawyer is always going to need a paralegal.

• 1:26:53Ramit Sethi?

  I love that.

• 1:26:54Speaker 04

  So jobs occur to you.

• 1:26:55Ramit Sethi?

  Do you use my dream job stuff that I sent you?

• 1:26:57Speaker 04

  I did. I did a lot of that. Like when I first decided to go back, I did the informational interviews and I started reaching out to people I knew from college or people I knew, you know, through social circles that were lawyers or adjacent and was like, you know, started asking questions. What are you looking for? How do I, who do I talk to? What do I do? And it's worked out well, so.

• 1:27:17Ramit Sethi?

  And Mikey, what was it like for you to watch Drew go through this career progression?

• 1:27:22Speaker 05

  It made me happy because it's going to make more money than a server.

• 1:27:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:27:27Speaker 05

  No, it was really good because I think he was a little floating, kind of like just trying to figure out what he wanted. And since, because the deal was when he was like, I want to go back to school for paralegal. I'm like, all right, one class. Because if you don't like it, we're only a couple hundred dollars out, we can move on. So we took one class. He really liked it and as he's going through the classes, I see it. Unfortunately, we have a good friend who's a lawyer and now they talk lawyer crap and it's really annoying. Really, really annoying.

• 1:27:57Ramit Sethi?

  I like this little dipping our toes into what's next, but you know what else I like? Drew, I like that you were going for HR. You started to go down that path and then you realize it's not for me. I have to say it's really hard to make a shift when you have kind of put your eggs in one basket and you've told people publicly, this is what I'm going for. That's common. It's hard, but I like that you said, this isn't for me. I'm finding something else.

• 1:28:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, I just realized too with it like when people ask me what I wanted to do for a job, I was like, make more money. Like I had no, I just knew not serving was the answer. And now like I get excited to talk like I know exactly what I want to do, which has never happened in my 36 years of existence. So it feels good to know where I'm going.

• 1:28:43Speaker 05

  And he's happy, like he's really happy. Like when, after doing the show and before the show a little bit, it was always like, what do you want to do? At the end of the day, we just want to be happy. So if you could take what you make and be happy with it, that's all that matters. And that's what I was really hoping he found and I'm happy about that.

• 1:29:00Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. Drew and Mikey, thank you so much. I'm so proud of you. Give it up, Drew and Mikey. Thank you guys. So great to see you always. Drew and Mikey.

• 1:29:19Ramit Sethi?

  You know, I don't often get to sit down with couples years after I first meet them, but I love hearing how Drew and Mikey's relationship between them and with money continues to evolve. It's now been over a month since I first sat down with them onstage in Chicago and Drew sent me this message just the other day. He said, I'm now interning for a solo owner practice where I've assisted in mediation and trials and I love it. It's the first time I can remember doing work that feels correct. I get enjoyment out of it. I'm driven by it. I continue to set up informational interview with old connections as well as new ones I've made through this internship. I can't wait to graduate in May. I currently have a 3.875 GPA.

• 1:30:04Ramit Sethi?

  Whoa, Drew, my man. Drew and Mikey have come so far since I met them two years ago on the Netflix show and I hope to be able to say the same for Evelyn and Mike down the line. I have to commend Evelyn and Mike for coming onstage and sharing so openly. You know, it's one thing to go through a coaching session with me in my coaching program. It's another thing to come on the podcast. It's entirely another thing to come in front of a live audience and share material like this, incredibly intimate, often taboo, totally unscripted, and we have no idea what's going to happen. The fact that they were willing to come on stage tells me that they want to make a change.

• 1:30:47Ramit Sethi?

  And my wish for them is to build true connection around money so they can create a rich life for themselves and for their kids. Now let's check out the updates from Evelyn and Mike.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  Some of the support from the crowd that I received, I was not expecting that much feedback. Just how affirmed I felt. You know, there's layers to peel back of previous conversations that I can't just jump to. You know, try to assume that Ellen's working through her takeaways and changes and try and be a partner in that together. You know, how I'm going to change going forward is we already discussed this about creating kind of a budget, and we've created a way to track it better for my hobbies that Ellen has concern about. And so that's something I want to implement for 2025, is having that kind of hobby budget that Ramit suggested and kind of working together with it and showing it to Evelyn and using that to have positive discussions going forward, not conflicts.

• 1:31:43Ramit Sethi?

  And now, let's hear from Evelyn.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Two weeks ago, Mike and I were on stage. It was a really eye-opening experience, and more than that, I've told my friends, it felt like a life-shifting experience for me, akin to when I had my children or when I tasted a chocolate mold cake for the first time. It was just life-shifting. To be honest, when I applied, I sort of expected Ramit to kind of give a stern talking to with Mike and just tell him to stop eating fried foods from the state fair or ask him to dig in deeper into his spending habits, and there was very little of that. Most of it was analyzing my history, my family dynamics with money. And where my insecurity and uncertainty comes from in terms of expecting how we run our finances.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  You, the last thing Ramit said to us was teamwork. And I think that even though it's something we all have in mind, or say with regularity at work or at home, you know, at the end of the day, if I'm approaching conversations or even my mindset with a me against you lens, it is really counterproductive to moving the, the relationship forward. There was a time when I was telling Ramit, you know, how much money we've saved or how much money we've earned because of my aggressive negotiating tactics. And he kind of rolled his eyes and was like, who cares? Like, does, is that worth sacrificing some of the relationship? It was eye opening for me that he actually said that to me, even though I have seen his negotiating videos before. So when I feel myself getting resentful or feel myself feeling negative about Mike

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  and his purchases, big or small, I just take a different turn and think through why I'm thinking that way. Hopefully cements us as, as true partners in this marriage, not just in name or in the bank accounts we share or the children we share, but in our heart and our spirit and our finances. You know, they say that expectations are resentment and training. And I think that this conversation helped me reset my expectations.