199:Can You Change Your Attachment Style? With Amir Levine

The author of Attached, Amir Levine, M. D., is back with a new book called Secure and a whole new framework for understanding why your relationships feel the way they do. In this episode, we get into the biggest misconceptions about anxious and avoidant attachment, the truth about whether you can actually change your attachment style, why avoidants shut down instead of showing up, what a "closeness overdose" is and why it kills perfectly good relationships, and the five pillars of a secure life built around his CARP framework: consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable. If you've ever been stuck in anxious hyper-vigilance, wondered how to build a secure relationship with someone more avoidant, struggled with limerence and obsessive attachment, or just wanted to stop letting your nervous system run the show, this episode gives you real, research-backed tools to start rewiring your brain toward earned secure attachment starting today. Pre-order Sabrina's book coming out October 2026,⁠ "Why Am I Like This?"⁠ If you’re ready to slow down, trust your instincts, and break your old dating patterns, the Healthy Relationship Foundations Course walks you through it step-by-step ⁠HERE!⁠ If you’re serious about changing your dating patterns instead of repeating them, the Art of Going Slow course helps you unlearn urgency, regulate your nervous system, and build real connection without rushing, chasing, or abandoning yourself ⁠HERE!⁠ Get Ad free ⁠HERE!⁠ Want to work with Sabrina? ⁠HERE!⁠ Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show ⁠HERE!⁠ Don't forget to follow ⁠Sabrina⁠ and ⁠The Sabrina Zohar Show⁠ on Instagram and ⁠Sabrina ⁠on TikTok! Video now available on ⁠YOUTUBE!⁠ Please support our sponsors! Treat yourself to gear that looks good, feels good, and doesn’t break the bank with Fabletics. Go to Fabletics.com/SABRINA and sign up as a VIP and get eighty percent off everything! ============================= Chapters: 0:00 Intro: Amir Levine & Secure 2:17 From Attached to Secure 3:44 Biggest Attachment Myths Debunked 6:18 The Truth About Avoidant Attachment 7:47 What Is a Closeness Overdose 11:08 Anxious Avoidant Relationships 15:23 The CARP Framework Explained 22:46 Micro Interactions Rewire Your Brain 25:32 Anxious Attachment as a Superpower 35:22 Limerence and Obsessive Attachment Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey Spotify listeners. When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi, sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Born from the intensity of a night in the Eternal City, introducing Born in Roma Fragrances by Valentino. Feminine perfume Donna Born in Roma features juicy black currant, central jasmine, soft cashmerin, and warm vanilla. Masculine-leaning but unisex Womo has notes of fresh violet leaf, aromatic sage, green vetiver, and mineral salt. Shop holiday gifts at macys.com.

• 0:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Are avoidants bad people, or do they just shut down and are misunderstood? Are you doomed to be your attachment style for life? Can you actually heal through the anxious attachment, or are you just, "That's it? You're always gonna feel like this"? Well, today, we have the author of Attached, Amir Levine, in the studio to talk about all those questions and more. Hello, hello, hello! Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. Welcome back, my babes! We've got such a special episode. Amir Levine is such an incredible human being, and he is the author of Attached and his new book called Secure. And Amir Levine's book, Attached, started this massive conversation about attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, disorganized, are they an asshole, do they just not like me? All of those questions

• 1:41Sabrina Zohar?

  answered today. And guys, I'm so excited, as always. Thank you so much for being here. Please don't forget to rate and review the show. Snag Amir's book, Secure. It's fucking amazing. There are so many tools in there that are gonna help you towards your earned And if you guys need anything, I'm always here. You could work one-on-one, ask a question, work with me in some capacity, or just be here. There's ad-free if you guys don't want to deal with the ads, or please support our show sponsors who help keep this as a free resource. And don't forget to rate and review and leave a comment. Let me know what you think. Let me know any questions that we didn't answer, anything you're confused about. I am here to help support you guys, and I want to make sure that you feel equally as supported in this community. All right, babies, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Amir fucking Levine, do you understand how excited and honored I am to have you in the

• 2:25Sabrina Zohar?

  studio? Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm such a fan of your work. I see you on social media all the time, and I just, I love your content. I just really love it.

• 2:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I'm so excited. I'm excited because when we first found out you were going to be on the show, I'm like, I hope he's okay if I ask like hard questions.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, just hit me with whatever you have. I'll, I'll, I'll do my best.

• 2:48Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm excited. Okay, before we get started, can you please tell us a little bit more about you? Because I think when I say the book that you wrote, Everyone and Their Mother, literally is going to know, the book attached, like you changed, you didn't just change culture, you became like a cultural phenomenon and how you brought forward, I think, a really important conversation. But then, like all good things, it gets hijacked and then it gets taken. But before we even get to all of that, could you tell us a little bit more of you and your background?

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Thank you. You're making me blush. I actually, I, I really, I'm, I'm a psychiatrist, and I'm both an adult and a child psychiatrist. I spent many, many years in school. And then when I was done with my training, I found myself doing all of a sudden, basic neuroscience research. I became like this molecular neuroscience geek. And in a way, I'm really glad that it happened because I was able to merge all these different things, a little bit in attached, because back then I was just learning to do the science, but a lot more insecure to take all the lessons that I know about the brain and then kind of like marry them together with attachment science to help people become more secure.

• 3:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love this. That book is going to be game-changing because, I mean, I have my list of everything I want to ask you. But I wanted to even start with, what have you found that's been the most helpful? Because I, my, my partner's more avoidant leaning, and I'm more of the anxious girly. But I think for me, like, I remember when I first read your book, I'll never forget, I was just holding it, and I remember like putting it down and like looking up going, "Oh, my God, he's avoidant!" And like, that was my ex being like, "Oh, my God!" And I'm anxious because it allowed me to go, "Oh, there's not something wrong with me. This makes sense, right? There's a reason I act like this." Now, I tried to use it as responsibly as I could, but I would be honest, right? I would go on the internet and you see like, "My avoidant," right? And I'm always like, "My avoidant? They're not fucking, they're not a Furby, right? Like, they don't own this

• 4:39Sabrina Zohar?

  person." But "My avoidant this, and the avoidant this, and the avoidant that." But what have you really seen, I think, the misconceptions? I really want to start there that you've started to see.

• 4:48Speaker 03

  Yes, that's so important. First of all, this idea that the attachment style that you have as a child is the attachment style that you're going to have as an adult, that's probably one of the biggest misconceptions, because the research repeatedly shows that that's not the case. Your upbringing explains a small, very small amount of your adult attachment style, so less than 10%.

• 5:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Who should?

• 5:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, and actually, there's one study, I was just looking this morning before coming here, there's one study that actually shows that friendships has a greater correlation to your adult attachment style than your parents. But still, all of these effects are modest, and at the end of the day, we're really the summation of all of our different social experiences, I think, and some of our own personal, where we come from, our genetics, all that gets funneled in. But the good news, we can constantly evolve and change our attachment styles. And in attachment style, what it is, it's basically a working model. It's a set of beliefs and ideas

• 5:51Speaker 03

  about the world, and if we bombard the brain with evidence to the contrary, it can change. And that's really the basic premise of this, of secure, and this whole secure primate therapy, this whole new approach that I've been working on for all these years, is how to change the brain, how to present it with different information, so you can see, huh, okay, maybe I got it all wrong. I can change now.

• 6:18Sabrina Zohar?

  How do you feel? When you, I mean, you're on the same side of the internet. When you go on and you see this inundation of like, how to fix your anxious attachment, how to get the avoidant to do what you want, like, how do you feel on the receiving end, like, watching all of this? What are you thinking?

• 6:33Speaker 03

  I think that I totally hear the plea. And I think that people really struggle a lot in relationships, not just romantic relationships, with our friendships and at work. And it's painful, it's really painful. So people are searching for answers. And a lot of the information out there is a little bit misguided. A little bit? Maybe a lot misguided, but it's just misguided, you know? And then it sends you down the wrong path. And so this whole idea in writing secure is to really help set people on a better path, and a more effective path.

• 7:14Sabrina Zohar?

  What is one thing people have wrong or don't really understand about avoidance?

• 7:18Speaker 03

  The problem with people that are avoidant is that they don't really understand that the rest of the world doesn't really see or experience relationships the way they do. For example, they take care of their own problems and they do it really well. So if you come to them, "Oh, my God, I have a problem, please help me." They're perplexed, they're just like, "What do you want from me? Heal thyself, I can help you, you help yourself." And they don't understand that that in and of itself creates a huge attachment backlash. Because for the rest of the population, maybe avoidance are about 25% of the population, they're the minority. The rest of us will be very upset if we come to help with someone and they'll tell us, "You know what, you go help yourself." In fact, we'll forget about the problem that we had,

• 8:03Speaker 03

  and now you become the problem. And one of the tools that I teach in secure is for avoidance to really avoid some of these very, their three main common pitfalls that they fall into, and kind of like how to circumvent them towards greater security. So the three main pitfalls are...

• 8:24Speaker 03

  I take care of my own problems, so should you. The second one is not respecting the attachment homeostasis, which is like a big word for baseline, the attachment baseline. And I'll explain. And then the third one is not being aware of what I've come to call the closeness overdose.

• 8:43Sabrina Zohar?

  What's the closeness? See, now you're just, you give me most of my. What's the closeness overdose? Because this is fascinating to me.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  So the closeness overdose is when, if you're avoidant, and again, there's so much that they don't know about themselves. And that's the biggest problem, I think. And I often find in my practice that when you teach them, they're like, huh, okay, I can do that, I can do this. They're workable, at least. And, and there's a reason why I think they're workable. And we can go into that because we actually all have secure kernels within us. And it's a way you can summon those secure kernels from them. So back to the closeness overdose. The closeness overdose is they think that they're not interested in someone or they start going out with someone and all of a sudden they feel that they're not interested.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  And they feel that it's only because they haven't made the right person yet. It's not the one, they're not the one, because it feels that way to them. They all of a sudden feel that, oh, I don't know if I like this person so much. I don't like the way they eat. I don't like their way, like they're, like they, they breathe. I don't know. It's just like all these deactivating strategies kick in. They can't control it. And oftentimes, these deactivating strategies kick in because they're so eager to find their one. So when they find someone that they like, they go all in and they create a lot of closeness really fast. Really too much for their own good. And that's when their own biology says, wait a second, this is not comfortable for me.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  So then it starts to sort of like, wait a second. And they have these deactivating strategies kick in without being aware of it. And then they can't really do much about it. What I really teach people in my private practice is to learn to respect their avoidant needs and ease into closeness. And there are really little tricks that you can do that can really help avoidants both be secure and actually get the distance that they want.

• 10:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so then how can you be in a relationship with someone more avoidant while still honoring your own needs?

• 10:44Speaker 03

  The thing about attachment, it's a simple neurocircuitry. It's not a very complicated system. It's really about how we feel safe in the world. So for example, when I came in here today, because a lot of pets have attachment too, and it's so easy to see how pets react to attachment. So your dog Kobe, Kobe was first in the door, I had to greet him, I had to pet him, and to really give him a little bit of attention, and he just loved it. And now he's not here anymore. He's not clawing at the door, asking to come in for me to actually give him more attention. But probably if I'd ignored him, he would be like, no, I need my dose of attention.

• 11:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  That's attachment in play. Same thing with all of us, and especially with avoidants. Avoidants have to learn that if you give the other person a little bit of attention, the way I did with Kobe, not a person, but still attaches, that actually eases everything, and they'll leave you alone. Good relationships are not meant for people to constantly want attention from you or want your response. Once you give them, if you learn how to do it strategically, you get all the space that you need. They're not going to think about you. They're going to be out there exploring the world, because attachment is inextricably linked to our exploratory drive.

• 12:04Sabrina Zohar?

  That's very interesting. It's interesting, like I mentioned earlier, I've got things anxious bug, and Ryan's got the more avoidant. And, you know, I also wanted to talk too, because I think that you were saying, like, or I was reading in the book, that the recent study is that like, it's not like especially avoidant, doesn't necessarily have to have been like your caregivers, there I was seeing that like, it also could be a biological response, probably same with anxiety too. But people ask us all the time, like, how did you and Ryan make a relationship work? How do you have an anxious and avoidant relationship? And the main thing that I think a lot of people want to circumvent when we're talking about this is that both people need to be doing the work because if it's one person that's growth minded that wants to have the conversation, that's willing to sit in the discomfort and the other person's leaving all the time or screaming, right, either

• 12:46Sabrina Zohar?

  way, you're not going to actually get any fucking work, not going to make any progress. But when we have one person where sometimes they'll say, hey, I'm flooded, I need five minutes and I have to then go, okay, sad, this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you, he's flooded, you didn't do anything, you're allowed to also take five minutes. Where I had to learn that space isn't the enemy because I was always taught that when someone walks out on you or leaves you, that means you did wrong, you are a bad girl and you should be punished for that. And it wasn't until now, having a corrective experience, because I had been with my fair share of, if I'd like to diagnose avoidant, right, which is another thing that drives me fucking insane, is people diagnosing their avoidant, my avoidant. It's like, how do you know that about this person? You had one fucking date or you text them for three weeks and now all of a sudden, it's like, here's the other side of the coin,

• 13:31Sabrina Zohar?

  they might not be avoidant, maybe they're just not into you, or maybe they're just not as expressive, or maybe they're just somebody that's a little bit more closed off. Doesn't mean we have to identify their attachment style. But what it really was for me, and I'm curious to see if like you've seen this, as we know, as we're talking about moving into a more secure space, that I had to let go of this narrative that I was never going to, right, that like earned secure is something that we can all move towards.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:55Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm curious for you, as you've been doing this work, right, as we've seen, we go from attached, right, having all this, which I know you'd said like 50% of the population was secure. Are we still thinking that or are we thinking it's a little less?

• 14:04Speaker 03

  There's, they're conflicting reports.

• 14:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Fair.

• 14:09Speaker 03

  Let's just say it that way. I mean, and that's another one of the myths, is that we can have different attachment style with different people, and attachment styles can change. So all these different things really make a much more nuanced, much more workable, actually, system than people give it credit for. And that's part of what I really go into in secure, I go into Really teaching the very basic tools of what you can do in order to get out of that insecure space for both anxious and avoidant and fearful avoidance. I have to tell you the truth nowadays, I even talked to my sister, we're very close. And we've talked and we've even commented to each other about how we hardly even talk about, oh, he's anxious, they're avoidant.

• 14:54Speaker 03

  We really talk more about, that was like the starting point. Now we talk more about the tools. Oh, are they CARP? And I'll explain in a minute. What are the simis like? There's all these different tools that I've created in secure priming therapy to really take it a step beyond the attachment styles. And, okay, what can we do now to put us in secure mode? Because if that's, I really like to call it secure mode, because the benefits of living in secure mode are far beyond just our romantic relationships or even our friendships or they're also psychologically and physiologically for us specifically.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  So there's research that shows that being, learning to live more securely and being like secure helps people longevity, people live longer. Even if you have a challenging health crisis, you deal with it better and you have less symptoms. We didn't even know that all that research didn't exist when I wrote attached.

• 15:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Which I do want to understand about CARP and the simis, because what is the new research? Like, tell me a little bit more about from 15 years plus ago, from where you were to where we are now, what are you seeing matter more? Because I think a lot of people hold on to, well, I have anxious attachment. And it's almost like this get a jail free card of like, well, I'm allowed to treat people like I'm allowed to go insane or fucking text 100 times because I have anxious attachment. And it's like, what else is part of the conversation here that we need to be having?

• 16:19Speaker 03

  So I think what's really important to understand is that it's, again, we'll go back to the idea that it's a safety system. And it's a very simple system. It's like a radar. So is there like a switch to turn the radar off so it doesn't, to turn the alarm system off? So it doesn't go all the time? Who wants to live in a house where the alarm system goes off all the time? It's just like, it's impossible. To live like that. So the idea is really coming up with something very useful that people can use to really understand what secure is in the most, in the simplest way possible. And it came up with these, I call them the five pillars of a secure life. And it consists of learning that you want to be that way and you want others to be that way in your life.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  They both have to do the work, you're right. And not just a partner, your environment in general. So you want people, you want you and other people to be consistent, available and responsive. Cause it's really, it's a, and it's a very simple system. That's what we monitor for all the time. And it's not enough that you'll think, oh, I'm so great. I'm consistent, available and responsive. You will, you need to make sure that the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable. So together that's CARP, consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable. And it's like a two factor authentication. You need to be consistent, available and responsive. And the other person needs to be, and experience you as reliable and predictable.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  So that's the first thing. So it makes things, it makes a lot of conversations so much simpler. When you have that CARP sort of tool, and I can give you an example. Please. I just finished doing like a masterclass. And the, the editor was doing like a text box about some of the class. And he said something, oh, when someone isn't CARP, you have to tell them about how they've hurt your feelings. And how this and that. And I said, no, no, no, no. You have to really understand, it's not so much about hurting someone's feelings. It's much more about hurting the brain.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  When we don't, where people are not consistent, available and responsible to us. That hurts the brain. There's all this research that looks at. Something that's called exclusion and when people are ignoring you or excluding you, and the research is beyond, it just like shows how harmful it is for our brains and how much our brain hates that, sort of that all of a sudden, lack of connectivity. So it's not about, oh, you made me feel bad, and, which it does, of course it does, but then the other thing that people do is they relate it back to their childhood also. And because I grew up, this is what happened to me when I was younger, and now I'm so more

• 19:12Speaker 03

  sensitive to it. But the research doesn't show that. The research shows that exclusion and that all of a sudden, when people aren't carp with us, it will hurt us no matter what kind of childhood we had. And so, when you tell people, you know, I really think that carp is important, and I'm trying to be this way, and I think other people, I'm looking for other people in my life that are this way, it's a game changer.

• 19:38Sabrina Zohar?

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• 21:04Speaker 00

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• 21:31Speaker 01

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• 22:29Sabrina Zohar?

  What I'm really hearing as well is like, because anytime I'm like, what are green flags, right? What are green flags that we want to look at? Most of our audience is dating, but not all of them. Some of us are in relationships. Some people might be married. Consistency, reciprocity, like patience. All of these things, especially consistency, right? For me, I had a very inconsistent household. You didn't know. My brother was taken when I was a kid to a drug program. My dad was in and out with his mistress. And it was, oh, he was a hectic. And so for me, that was such a reconfirmation experience, right, to my nervous system to have someone that like, oh, when we get into a fight, you don't leave. When we get into an argument, you sit with me, right? That is something that is so beautiful. And I think a lot of us want to overconflate as if like, oh, wow, no, you're making it sound easy. And it's like, I think you're actually more complicating it than it needs to be.

• 23:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Because if you're sitting there having a conversation with someone and you don't feel that they're consistent, or that they're respectful, or that they're going to show up for you, or then how do you trust this person? Right? How can you build trust? And we don't need to blame our attachment style. Maybe it's just that's a human, on a human level, I think that would make anybody feel insecure.

• 23:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, we all have a radar like in our head that constantly surveys for the availability of the people in our lives. Everybody does. And if I were to tell you that like your loved ones, I don't know, someone in your family, I don't know, like a terrible earthquake happened there or something like that, you would have a really hard time continuing this conversation. You'd have to stop and make sure that they're okay, and then you can continue on. So we have this idea where our loved ones are, and that they're available, that there's like this attachment tug that goes on. And when it gets disrupted, that's when our brain goes, that's basically the switch that turns on the alarm system.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  And some people, the alarm system blares more loudly and other people less. And that's the thing, for secure people, it's harder to turn on the alarm system. And they're like, they can turn it off more easily. But we can also tweak our environment so the alarm system isn't turned on so much. And CARP is basically a very simple tool that people can use. They need to learn to be consistent, available and responsive, reliable and predictable. And then they can teach other to be that way with them. And the beauty is when avoidants learn to be CARP with you and It's really not in the in big moments. I'm talking about a lot of people, when they look for change,

• 24:54Speaker 03

  they think they need to go and talk about their childhood experiences or really difficult things that have happened to them. And they rarely think about what I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor minor interactions of everyday life. If you understand the brain from a neuroscience perspective, especially from, I'm gonna throw in another word, like I do epigenetic research, which is how basically we change our brain, really the structure of our brain. And our brain changes all the time. So if we understand the brain from that perspective, we know that each and every small interaction like that, micro interaction, is an opportunity for change. And if we seize on those moments

• 25:38Speaker 03

  and accumulate more and more carpseens where people are consistent, available and responsive to us, and we are to others, then we positively can really change on a very, very fundamental level in our brain. We can really change the structure of our brain.

• 25:56Sabrina Zohar?

  It's the conversation, I think, that's important.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  Right, and finding a solution.

• 25:59Sabrina Zohar?

  That, to me, it's the dance of feeling heard, feeling like, wow, you actually care about me. And it's not, you know, because I've had my fair share where you're like, hey, you know, I remember this one guy I dated, and this is where I would say I changed the way I dated after this guy. He was the most, everything on paper, right? He was super successful and handsome and charming and, oh, my God, I got signed, sealed, delivered. I remember calling my mom, being like, what? And he lived out of town. And so he was coming back and forth, and he was supposed to stay with me. And I hadn't spoken to him in like five days. And I remember telling him, like, hey, I don't feel connected with you. You know, can we talk about something? And it would be one thing if he was like, hey, totally get it, right? Like, then I, instead, I got a voice note, baby girl, relax, okay? Like, go live your life.

• 26:44Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm living my life. Like, I'm out with my friends right now. You're making this something it's just not. And it was this whole three minutes of him excusing, how all of that, you're making this something it's not, and you're being that. And that's in that moment where I was like, oh, you're just unavailable, right? Like, this is it. You're just, you're not available to attune in the ways that I need.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  But some of the research that I talk about in secure is how actually people with anxious attachment style. They have this sixth sense of noticing a lot of different things in the world, not just danger, but a lot of social cues and other cues that other people can't see. And that's a huge advantage. And it helps people, like, let's say if you're day trading on Wall Street, you see trends before everybody else does. And you, if you're like, if you have the gumption and you'll bet on it, like, people like that I have in my practice made a ton lot of money because of that anxious attachment style. Because you have this amazing ability, but it comes with a price.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  So it's not about healing it, it's about learning to live with that ability to see things that other people can't see.

• 27:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, that's how I feel about being ADHD brained. For a long time, it's very like shame on that, oh, you're too fast and you do this and you need to slow down. And so for a long time, I had this Achilles heel, this just chip on my shoulder of like, you're fucked up, there's something wrong with you, you get so anxious, until I learned to live with it and learn to love it and say, wait a minute, how can I use this to my advantage? I'm like, okay, yeah, you're right, I might be really fast, which means I get work done a lot quicker, which means I can, I can literally have a conversation with you, but I can also see everything that's going on so that by the time I'm done, I'm already checked in. I don't want anyone to feel like anything is wrong with them for having an attachment style, whether that be anxious, avoidant, disorganized, doesn't matter, right? It doesn't matter where you fall on the spectrum. And I think we've villainized the avoidant as like, they don't care and they're just assholes, which I don't believe that.

• 28:39Sabrina Zohar?

  I think that they have their own anxiety. Like, my sister's avoidant, she'll start to cry and I can see it and I'm like, oh, she shut down, that's it, she can't, because it's too scary for her, it's too dangerous what's on the other side of that. And then same with the anxious person, right? Like, it's beautiful that we have these, but then that could go, the pendulum can swing, right? When we're freaking out and having panic attacks because someone didn't call us and we didn't get what we want and we're like, that's it, we're burning the house down and then all of a sudden you get the call and you're fine and everything's okay. But I think if we can look at, instead of how do I get rid of it? And how do I fix it? How do I learn to love it and live with it? To me, that would be earned secure. And I'm curious, how do you work towards becoming more earned secure?

• 29:15Speaker 03

  So there's a few things that you mentioned that I really, really relate to. The one thing about ADHD, I think what I talk about, and that's the third part of the book, is it more about how you can secure your mind? I describe this idea about how we're all biologically so diverse. And because we're so diverse, we have, we all have our, what I've come to call these inner sparks of talent. But the problem is oftentimes that people with insecure attachment style and oftentimes anxious, but not only. Some of the time, their most amazing inner sparks of talents, they see them as impediments. And I even have a whole sort of workshop in the book about how you can write down your

• 29:58Speaker 03

  inner spark of talent and realize, or potentially what you think are your impediments are, and then see, take a look, a closer look at it more from a secure stance and see how it could actually be an inner spark of talent. And maybe you're not giving it the right environment to really flourish. And sometimes that's all it takes. When we are securely attached to others, sometimes one word, even a hug, can make us feel so much better, so much, very, very quickly, because we're a social species.

• 30:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  And that's one of the things that you find in the strange situation test, is how effective that bond is in regulating the child's emotion. There's no Xanax or Klonopin in the world that can even get close to that.

• 30:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Even to have a request, right? Hey, I'd like this. What makes the breaks for me is the acknowledgement of like, hey, thanks for letting me know it's what you need, right? Maybe it's, I want to see you more often. Maybe it's, I want more depth, right? Like Ryan and I went through that, where he's just, he's not the most expressive person. Like he's that very classic aspect of the avoider. Like he'll answer, he always says it, I'll answer questions, but I'm not really going to ask as many at first. Or he'll be there, to him, it was just like, I'm just happy to be with you. And then me, I'm like, I talk and I connect and like, fuck my brain, like, let's go, I really want to. And so at first, I was like, oh, I'm bored with him and he's not it. But then I had to realize like, well, wait a minute, part of being secure is also knowing that one person isn't going to satisfy every need.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 31:25Sabrina Zohar?

  That I'm gonna have friends that will.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Because people with who are having anxious, remember they're both the need and ability for a lot of closeness. And so, and um, once you know that there this other person is here to stay. And and you know it like you can do because the way that sounds like that you're able to negotiate things. Then it gave you that idea, this person is carp, even though he can't text me right away, but he's here to stay.

• 31:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  So it creates this level of that's it creates a secure blanket that gives you more leeway to accept. Then what they need as as their their animal needs are. We all have our different animal needs, but it has to be, you have to find a way, but what I'm trying to say in secure. Is that it's not that hard, it's much, it's easier than people think because it's not a very smart system, the attachment system. It's kind of stupid, it's like a radar, it's like on and off, and so you find a way to pacify it. And then you get all like, it's like you're the little kid, you don't care about the mom sitting in the background. You're there playing all day long, every once in a while you look, so if you create create that thing that you can look and you know that they're there.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  Like you have that inner understanding that they're there, you're not gonna think about them. You go, that's that's what really good relationships are about, they're not in the center, the forefront of your mind. They recede into the background so you can create and you can live your life, you can raise children, there's all, it's it's a working unit.

• 32:52Sabrina Zohar?

  My mom always says they're in addition to your life, not instead of. And that's kind of what you're saying, like this is additive, this is a part of your life, it's not your life. And that code, that's where we get into codependency, da da da, is like if I, you know, I have it, I'll get the girls are like. They didn't text me, but they're on social media and then the hypervigilance kicks in where they're like, it's been three hours and four minutes since they responded and it's like. That's where then I look and say, but then this isn't about them anymore. Because if it was about them, then we'd be able to say, oh, wait a minute, they're flying today. I know that they're not gonna answer me back because they're on a flight or they're in a work meeting or they didn't expect that I was gonna text them so may. And not burning the house down, right, you were talking about the fire alarm, I was talking about a smoke alarm. Then imagine if every single time the smoke alarm goes off and eventually you're like, there's no fucking fire, like.

• 33:35Sabrina Zohar?

  That's to me what what helped me with through the anxious attachment was learning to understand the difference between. I'm setting off the smoke alarm because I am feeling out of control and I'm trying to gain it. Versus, hey, I think there's smoke, so there might be fire and I'd like to get curious about that because I learned to trust myself. And I am curious, for anyone listening today, if somebody is saying, I don't know where to begin, where do we begin, outside of obviously buying the book and reading it? But where do you begin? What is a tool that we can give? I have a tool of the week. Where is somebody could begin today on even whatever their attachment style is, to be able to make one step closer towards being secure?

• 34:09Speaker 03

  I think the way to begin is to really educate yourself about what the attachment neurocircuitry is all about. That it's a simple radar system or alarm system. And you learn with using those carp and the semis, how to keep it at bay. And with some people, it's easier to keep it at bay. And with our others, it requires a little bit more fine tuning. But it really, once you learn how to fine tune it, it's really not a lot of work. And if it continues to be a lot of work, so that's where I talk about in the book. I talk about the carp intervention. And then what do you do when the carp intervention doesn't work?

• 34:48Speaker 03

  And it can be in dating, and it can be with friends, and it can be in sort of many different social situations. So I think it's really important to understand that people who have an anxious attachment style, because of that extra layer of sensitivity or ability to see things that other people can't see, they can get triggered more easily. So the idea is to try to create the most secure environment for themselves. And they can do that by really trying to curate their their social surrounding. Here's where the attention really needs to shift, because sometimes, most of the time,

• 35:30Speaker 03

  we have other secure people in our lives that we hardly pay any attention to, because they're boring. They're a carp. They always show up for us. They're there when we text them, they text us back. They're always there for us. So our attention goes into the drama. And I say, no, no, no. What you can do now is instead of like, question, question, are you okay? Text the secure person who's always, so it's a simple shift in your attention. And now you are, and then you open the door to more secure influences in your life. And that's a huge game changer. It sounds like such a little thing to do, but now you're shifting the focus in your life towards more secure people.

• 36:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah. I remember when I first, Ryan and I had our first date, we slept together on the first date. So when you said it, I was like, hey, so did I. And I remember sitting there being like, man, you're never gonna hear from this guy again. And I was like, eh, you know what? Maybe you will, right? Like, maybe that's not, that's why I started my career. I was like, the dating advice I was hearing, it wasn't a one size fits all. Like, no, I don't want to wait three months. I don't want to, like, sorry, I want to know if we're compatible sexually a lot earlier. And when we left, I remember I looked him in the eyes. And this is, I guess, my version of seeing if he was, if I could have carp. And I said, I had a really great time, but I want to just be 100% clear with you. I don't do casual and I don't do the hookup thing. I'm not your friend with benefits. If you want to see me again and you call me, that's because we're actually building something and you're getting to know me. If not, please don't waste my fucking time. I had a great time tonight.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  That's a carp intervention.

• 36:50Sabrina Zohar?

  And he just looked and he was like, that was really sexy. And people ask him now, why did you go out with her? And he was like, she wasn't afraid of losing herself. She was, she didn't care about losing me. She cared about, was she gonna lose her? And I made sure that throughout the relationship, I never, because people ask, how did you change him? It's like, I didn't change him. I showed up in the way that I wanted someone to show up for me. And I made the choice and determination, if you'd like to join, I'm fucking here, let's do it. And if not, that's okay, there will be people. Because it's true, like you said, building that secure environment means having yoga classes that were predictable for me, that I knew I could go to because I loved the teacher.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, exactly. And then exercise is super important.

• 37:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, it's everything, like, just, but knowing, right? You have your, your one friend, no matter what, you know that they'll answer you. My dog, right? Before he passed away, like Clem was my object permanence. He was everything. He was safety to me because I never experienced that. But it's so important to even just have one glimmer of your day because that helps us. Because like, we didn't even get to talk. It's my last question for you. Limerence, I want to know a little bit more because I think that we get into, we see, especially with the anxious folk, right? This obsession, this hyper fixation of like, I just need to get them, even when this person is very clearly not somebody for them. From the data, from what you're seeing, where does that come from? What is that?

• 38:03Speaker 03

  It can be so painful and so hard and so heartbreaking. And I've learned over time to really respect that. I think what happens is people I think what people really need to do is earlier on, do what you did, like that carp intervention, right up front and center. I think you should do it on your dating profile. I mean, for me, what's important is people that are consistent and available and responsive. I am that way. I expect that from you too. I really should sort of shout it from the root stuff because of limerence. Exactly because of that, because once if you go into it and many people with anxious attachment, oh, I don't want to rock the boat too much. Oh, like, like, I don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize your relationship. No, you do want to do that.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  You want to rock the boat. You want to see if this person is right for you. Because let's say, um, let's say you would have scared him away. Good.

• 38:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Good.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  Run, go, like, run away. Because this is who I am. So you kind of like told him from the very get go. Each person should have, I call it in the book, your secure spiel. You should create a little sort of secure, you gave him a secure spiel.

• 39:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Gave him a spiel.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  Yes, and this is, this is who I am. That's what to expect. This is me showing up. So, once you, if you don't do that, then you don't want to rock the boat. So you are coming in on their terms. And if those terms are not really the right terms for you, and then you find it out three months in, or a month in, or like when you're already, when you're already really so much more emotionally involved, then you're in trouble. Then it can take a long, long time for you to let it go. And it needs a lot of patience. I think the pain is unavoidable. But what you can do is you can, it's a huge surge of energy. And you can take that energy and you can try to channel it to something

• 39:52Speaker 03

  that will pay off in the next round. Because you showed up and you can form relationships. And for some reason here, like, it didn't work.

• 40:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  But you can still show up and that's the beauty of attachment, is that when a window closes, the door opens.

• 40:10Sabrina Zohar?

  I had to let, for me, I, I, my whole career started from hitting rock bottom, so I... Understand.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  It's a huge, it's, it's, it's an energy. Cause it gives you like, you know what? I'm going to take this and I'm going to make, I'm going to take this really horrible lemon.

• 40:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  And I'm going to try to make it, yes. I'm not giving up.

• 40:27Sabrina Zohar?

  No, and you know what I had to let go of too was like, fuck the avoidance and don't do that. I had to really let go of that and say, it doesn't matter the attachment style. It matters what they're doing with it. Because I would never, I would never be with Ryan if I listened to the clickbait on TikTok being like, fuck the avoidance, avoidance are narcissists and they're all.

• 40:42Speaker 03

  That's really a very big problem. There's a lot of insecure priming that happens online. And what I'm saying is we all have that potential to be more secure. So I really, we try to channel it and bring it up out of people. And basically even what you did with, with Ryan was kind of like trying to see, can I reach into that sort of secure kernel within you and pull it out? And can you sort of meet me there?

• 41:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, Amir, I could sit here and talk to you all day about this, but we've been yapping. Ah, okay. Where can people find you in the book? Tell us everything. We'll have it linked in the show notes, but plug away.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  Like you can go, you can go to Amir Levine M D dot com. There you can actually take a, an attachment quiz with many different people in your life, including your pet. Um, and, uh, yeah. And then learn more about secure primary therapy and all that on the, on my website.

• 41:33Sabrina Zohar?

  And don't forget to get the book secure because attached changed the world. So let's, let's secure helpfully course correct on just what people have taken. Cause it's not what you wrote. It's what people took with.

• 41:43Speaker 03

  Definitely not what I wrote.

• 41:44Sabrina Zohar?

  It's not what you wrote, cause I've read your book like seven times. I know what's in there. That's why when I hear sometimes the other side, I'm like, where did you get that from? Like that was some 22 year old that doesn't understand attachment styles and dated some asshole.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  But oftentimes people talk out of their own pain.

• 41:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Of course, that's what I'm saying. Like you're, you're just hurting. I get that, but we are spreading that misinformation, which is so.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I know.

• 42:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Detrimental. So let's get to secure.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  That's why your work is so important.

• 42:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Likewise. Amir, thank you so much for being here.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  I really loved it. Thank you.

• 42:20Speaker 04

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