Moment 138: The Power of Letting Go & Embracing the Unknown Bozoma Saint John

In this moment, the American businessperson and marketing executive, Bozoma Saint John discusses how to find your destiny. Bozoma says that too often people say that they just ‘fell into’ the job or industry they are in, when in fact she believes that this is destiny coming to find you and that we are constantly creating our destiny. She says that we underestimate the power of letting go of control (which is not the same as surrendering or giving up) as a way of opening up to different possibilities and routes to finding our destiny. As too often we bang our heads against closed doors, when instead there is an open door that is open on a different route. To realise this, she says we need to treat our powers of intuition like a muscle, ignoring external voices and opinions, training and growing your intuition to the point where you can have 100% faith in whatever it is telling you. Listen to the full episode here - https://g2ul0.app.link/q9EARBxJ9Eb Watch the Episodes On Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos Bozoma: https://www.bozomasaintjohn.com https://www.instagram.com/badassboz/?hl=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Steven Bartlett?

  Your first sort of real significant career move seemed to be this encounter with Spike Lee's agency.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 0:10Steven Bartlett?

  So for people that don't know, who is Spike Lee?

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 0:12Steven Bartlett?

  And how did that happen?

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Spike Lee is blackity, blackity, black, first of all. All the blackness. No, but he is a film director, really, at his core, filmmaker, let's call it that, because he certainly produces and does other things and writes. But he has an advertising agency in New York. When I was there, it was on Madison Avenue. So Madison Avenue is like the place for advertising in the world, right? It's the place where the show Mad Men was made from. So DDB is one of the biggest agencies and Spike had a JV with them.

• 0:53Steven Bartlett?

  What brought you to New York in the first place?

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Um, curiosity. I was, I graduated from Wesleyan University, which was in Milltown, Connecticut. And it was just time to apply to med school and I really didn't want to. And New York was right there. It was like an hour and a half from school and I really didn't have a plan. Yeah, I just, I just went, trying to escape what I thought was my destiny. And like many people say, I think sometimes in this business, I kind of fell into this. But I think my destiny actually came to find me. That's what it was. I opened up and allowed for something greater that I didn't even know was possible to find me instead.

• 1:36Steven Bartlett?

  So many people are in that chapter of their life where they're trying to find their destiny or trying to help, trying to figure out a way to let their destiny find them.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47Steven Bartlett?

  When you look back and connect the dots as to how your career came to be and you think about that first moment where you, you know, you went to New York and then you're on Madison Avenue, you're working for Spike Lee and you find, you find your destiny or it finds you. If your, if your daughter comes to you and says, "Mum, what advice have you got for me on finding my destiny? Like what have I got to do to actively bring it about?"

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Have you ever heard that statement like let go and let God? No. Have you heard that before? No. It's a very Christian thing. I feel like in the like black church, there's a lot of that let go and let God. You know, as if God is just gonna just sprinkle magic dust over you, you know? And I'm like, no, I don't, I don't necessarily believe that just as a plain statement. I think the letting go is an action. You know, it's not surrender. It's not like you just lay down and it's gonna find you. You're not gonna find your destiny sitting on the couch. You know, the letting go for me is like the letting go of preconceived ideas about what it is that you are going to do.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Letting go of

• 2:54Speaker 01

  sometimes you're like trying to do something and keep hitting a wall. You know, you're just like, oh, if I just hit it one more time, it's gonna break.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's like, you know, that's a cement wall, right? If you just move five feet to the right, it's actually plaster and you're gonna go right through it. You know, it's like sometimes it's the letting go of this thought that you had, which is like, oh, I'm going to do this thing right here. Is the magic. And I'll tell you this, look, it didn't just happen at that stage in my life. It's happening right now. Where, you know, I'm like, okay, well, I think I am done with my corporate CMO work. I believe I'm finished. So I'm going to let go.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Let go of it. I'm not going to be actively looking for the next CMO job. I want whatever is coming for me to come. I'm gonna allow space for it. Now, it doesn't mean I'm just sitting around. I'm also, you know, trying to polish other skills. I'm trying to create, you know, because perhaps the next thing that's coming is somewhere more in that space. I can feel it like in my spirit. And that understanding of like your intuition, and if you're listening to it, it's like a magnet. It's gonna just draw you closer to the thing that you're supposed to do.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  And it has happened every single time, like every time without fail. Like every job, every move I've made hasn't been because somebody said, oh, you know what? This makes logical sense. One plus one equals two.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Sometimes I'm just like, mm, but it's not math though. You know, it's physics. It's not, it's not the addition, it's the subtraction. I'm just gonna sit here and I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna go talk to this person. And I'm gonna talk to that person. I'm gonna sit back down again and I'm gonna write this thing out. And then like magic, because I don't know how else to describe it. It's like the destiny appears. I'm telling you, every time it has happened, every single time, even when people were like, oh, that is never gonna happen. Like, you're wasting your time. I don't know why you'd go over there and do that. I'm like, mm, I don't know, something, something inside. I'm telling you, telling me that this is the way to go. I'm gonna go over there. Every time it's worked.

• 5:21Steven Bartlett?

  But, but do you believe, so there's a lot there for me. There's a lot that I'm interested in there. Do you believe, because I want to be clear, are you, because some people hear that and go, haha, love that. Everything happens for a reason. I'm gonna chill and my fate is pre-written and it's coming for me. Um, Bo said, all I gotta do is wait. And it's gonna, because everything happens for a reason. It's pre-written, so I've just gotta play these tarot cards and I'm gonna.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  This is when I start banging on the table. No, no, no, no.

• 5:54Steven Bartlett?

  If I just chill here.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no chilling here, okay? I think you're probably talking my energy. I'm not one of those chilling here type people anyway, you know? Um, and I don't believe things are pre-written, actually. Like, for me, the idea of destiny isn't that something is already predetermined for you. I think you create your destiny also. You know, meaning that like, look, there was a movie in the, in the late nineties called Sliding Doors. Star Gwyneth Paltrow. Um, the concept is basically like, you know, if you're running for the train and you catch it, you know, you jump inside. You have one destiny. If the door's closed, you still stand on platform and then you have to catch the next train. It takes you to a different destiny.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  That's the concept, right? It is what I also believe, which is that like my destiny is not pre-written. But the movements that I make are what lead me to the thing that's actually for me. You know, and so it's a constant evolution. So I don't believe that you have to sit and wait for it. I think your constant movement, your constant discovery is actually what then brings the destiny to you. So this isn't about predetermined anything. Or just like, let me just chill out on, like I said, you can't sit on the couch and expect your destiny to come for you.

• 7:14Steven Bartlett?

  So it's not reading my horoscope?

• 7:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:16Steven Bartlett?

  With the tarot cards and...

• 7:17Speaker 01

  No disrespect to the tarot card readers.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  But I do believe that we are constantly creating our destiny. You know, that this life that we're living, these experiences, the people we're meeting, the people you're in relationships with. Ooh, it happens because there's a certain action that you take that leads you to that thing. Now, it's your choice whether or not you take it. And then that's when the whole intuition thing comes up for me, right? Because I'm like, now, you may have caused a lot of action. And then you have a couple of choices in front of you. Where are you going? Which one is calling you? And you know what people like to do? They want to write pro and con lists. They want to ask people for advice. Ah, do you think I should do this or should I do that?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Both of these are good. Why are you asking other people? They don't know. They're not, they're not living your life. They don't have the, the whole destiny. They have their own thing. Like, why are you asking them? And if you got quiet for a second and heard your intuition. But then again, sometimes people are scared, right? Because it's telling you to do something that you probably don't want to do. You're a little scared of it. And then you're going to choose the wrong thing.

• 8:36Steven Bartlett?

  It's hard to hear your intuition when George is

• 8:41Steven Bartlett?

  very loudly telling you.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:43Steven Bartlett?

  George being your father.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:45Steven Bartlett?

  And, and everyone can relate. There's, there's always an external voice, which is very loud, whether it's social expectation or Instagram or George.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:51Steven Bartlett?

  Saying that this is the right thing to do. So like, how do you tune into your intuition and out of George?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Ah, it's like any muscle. You know, it's like, look, we all have biceps. But some people's biceps are enormous.

• 9:03Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  That was good.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  That was super smooth. That was really nice. Nicely done.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  But it is like any muscle, you know, you gotta work it. You've gotta listen to it. You have to make it brave to talk to you. You know, I kind of feel like it's like that friend. Now, this is not about multiple personalities, but you know, it's like that friend who's talking to you inside your head. You know, and like, if you keep dissing it and keep being like, shut up. No, it's a bad idea. If you keep doing that, that voice can get quieter and quieter. What makes you think it's gonna ever be like, listen, Bose, I told you. No. Look, my intuition is so loud. Oh, there's no way. Oh, I meet people and will be like, that person's not for me.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And no. By the way, somebody else will be like, oh, that is a very powerful person. You know, they'll introduce you to this other person or, oh, they're so smart. They've done this and that and that and that and that.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Not for me.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  So I'm not, I'm not even going to engage.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Like, my intuition is that strong. I trust it 100%.

• 10:23Steven Bartlett?

  Because you've had to train it, right?

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I've had to, I've had to allow it to lead me.

• 10:29Steven Bartlett?

  Is that because of what you said earlier about the survival? And that pattern recognition is developed now where you can kind of, you see a couple of cues. Your intuition goes, oh, we met this person a couple of times.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. Yes, that's part of it, for sure. Like, throughout my life, I've had to

• 10:47Speaker 01

  listen to my intuition, allow it to lead me, even when other people were like, no. Whether it was my dad, or a friend, or a mentor, a boss. You know, when they've been like, mm, mm, mm. No, that's not the thing you want to do. You should do this. This is, this will be more successful for you. And then my intuition was like, actually, I don't think so. I think you need to go this way. It is so hard. I'm not pretending as if like, this is the easy thing where it's like, oh, just listen to your intuition, you'll be fine. Thing is dumb hard. You know, it's like, look, because sometimes a logic.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Makes a lot more sense than your intuition. And so I'm not saying that it's easy, but it is the only choice if you want to be successful. And successful to me these days means that I am happy and at peace and enjoying the thing I'm doing. It's no longer about the title or the house or the thing like, do I have freedom?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Oh, man, like, and freedom isn't just like, I can do whatever the hell I want. Freedom is that like, I can be working on a campaign and not sleep for three days because I'm so excited about it. That's the kind of freedom I'm talking about, like really enjoying the things that I'm doing. And if I am listening to my intuition, it's going to lead me to those opportunities that allow me to have that kind of experience with people or with jobs or with whoever.

• 12:13Steven Bartlett?

  It's such an important question. I don't think people ask themselves there, which is, what is your definition of success? And I know it's kind of, it's kind of like a fluffy question or whatever else, but once you have that as your north star, it completely changes your, your like direction of travel.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:25Steven Bartlett?

  So like that central question, I think, and everyone listening to this now, like, like, what is your, what is your truly your definition of success? Because if you don't, if you're not clear on it, someone else is going to write that definition for you.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:35Steven Bartlett?

  And it might be George, you know what I mean?

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yes, or, or anybody else.

• 12:39Steven Bartlett?

  Someone else.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 12:40Steven Bartlett?

  Or Instagram might write it for you.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Or your partner.

• 12:42Steven Bartlett?

  And you're gonna, you're gonna go down that path and find yourself lost.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 12:45Steven Bartlett?

  And it would just be a feeling inside your chest that says, oh, we, we made a wrong turning.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Every time. You know, sometimes that shows up in the Sunday scaries.

• 12:53Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  It shows up there.

• 12:55Steven Bartlett?

  We, we're having a conversation about this yesterday, it was on Sunday. We're like,

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:59Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't it strange that it's Monday tomorrow? None of us have, it's not crossed any of our minds.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Exactly, or freaked out about it.

• 13:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  God, it's like, man, when I, when I started recognizing that Sunday scaries were tied to my wrong turns.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Guess who jumped into the driver's seat real quick? Me.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  It's like, look, and again, we're not saying, we're not making light of it. Me like, oh, this is so easy. Just change direction, you know? But it's so helpful when you recognize it and then you're like, oh, okay. Now I can do something about this. It was like, right? Isn't that the first step of like any problem solving is to recognize the problem?

• 13:43Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think life, like Sunday scaries is a signal?

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I'm telling you.

• 13:48Steven Bartlett?

  And it's a signal and it's a very important signal and it's screaming at you.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  So loud, so loud. And the thing is that, think about Sunday scaries in relationship to anything in your life. When you are in a relationship, let's say romantic, and you have to go hang out with that person. And you're not feeling so cute about it. Might be time for you to reevaluate whether or not this relationship is good for you. You know, it's like, you should be feeling the like, oh, I really want to go do this thing with this person. You know? And for me, it's not even about length of time because, you know, marriage is not something where it's like, people tell you all the time, it's so hard. And it's like, you know, you'll fall out of love with this person and then fall back in love with them and da, da, da, da.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  It's like, I'm not talking about like the fickleness of your everyday feelings. I'm talking about like the consistency of a mood that you are in when you are in the presence of that person. Like, do you feel great? Do you have ickiness when you're with them? Like that, ooh, ooh, that's a, that's a Sunday scary that you need to watch out for. So it's not just about like, am I going to wake up and go to work tomorrow at a job I hate? I apply that to everything in my life. And that's the kind of freedom that I want in my life. That like, I don't engage with people that I feel the ickiness with.