#2241 - Rick Strassman

Rick Strassman is a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. His new book, "My Altered States: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Trauma, Psychedelics, and Spiritual Growth," is available now. www.rickstrassman.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  So he's got... Hi Rick. Hi. Good to see you, brother. Good to see you too. Um, so he's got this place called The Boneyard, my friend John Reeves, in Alaska. And he made this for me too. This is like a little skull. That's a woolly mammoth tooth. Man. Like a molar. Whoa. Yeah. So he has this incredible place. And he was a gold miner, and still is. And they started finding like, an extraordinary amount of tusks, and bones, and skulls from animals that aren't even supposed to have been there. Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of rewriting history, but it's all in his land. So he has complete control over it. And he has, like, see, there's John.

• 0:57Joe Rogan?

  He's this enormous dude. He's like 6'9", like a big giant man. And he has, um, this is just some of it, like, show those warehouses that he has. So he had a research facility built on his property, so they could study this stuff. And if you see outside in the lobby, there's actually a bison skull. It's like a 10,000-plus-year-old bison skull. Lot of bones. So this area is only a few acres. This is what's really crazy. He has one area that's like, I believe it's like 4 acres, and another area that's about 6 acres. And there's also like, a very heavy layer of carbon, um, that, so it appears there was some sort of a mass fire.

• 1:41Joe Rogan?

  And he thinks that this mass extinction event that all the people like Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson talk about with the end of the Younger Dryas, the Younger Dryas impact area. Sure, yeah, yeah. He thinks it's connected to this. And he thinks that site might have been hit, and all these animals, probably in the great flood, their carcasses were washed into this sort of valley. In this one area where they were kind of trapped up against the side of this mountain. And so he hoses the mountain down with, it's all permafrost, so it's all been frozen forever. And they have these high-pressure hoses, and they hose it until they expose like a tusk. And they have, this is what they do all day.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, those hoses are what they used to use for mining gold, too.

• 2:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's why he has them. Yeah, that's exactly why he has them. He's a gold miner.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is around the southeast coast?

• 2:35Joe Rogan?

  I don't know exactly what part of Alaska he's in, but it's really, really amazing stuff.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41Joe Rogan?

  And another thing that he's exposed is that it's the Smithsonian, right, in New York? No. No? I think it's American History, AMNH. Find out what. American Museum of Natural History. Museum of Natural History. So they had, from the same property before he owned it, way back in like, I think it was the 30s. They had so many bones from this part of Alaska where the previous people had found them, that they didn't have any room to store them, so they dumped them in the East River.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12Joe Rogan?

  And so they denied that the previous people, obviously it's people that are long dead, they denied that this happened, and so he sent a bunch of divers out there. And so they're recovering, like, these mammoth bones, and all these, like, bison bones, step bison bones, in the East River.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:32Joe Rogan?

  That are all from his property in Alaska.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'd be hard to explain how they got there otherwise.

• 3:38Joe Rogan?

  It's only one, I mean, it's the literally exact spot to look, too. Like, he knew exactly where to go, it was all, there's records of it, of like, where they dumped it. Because, and they still, to this day, have just crates of these bones.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, is that the reason he chose where he is living in Alaska is because of?

• 3:55Joe Rogan?

  I don't believe so. No, he was there for gold mining. I think it was something that came up along the way. You know, because he's a gold miner, he's got a lot of disposable income, so he's willing to just spend it on his own to do this. He doesn't trust the museums anymore because they screwed over the previous owner, and even though it's his property and his land, he's supposed to get that stuff, and they don't want to give it to him. And, you know, and so he's got his own research facility that he built. He spent millions of dollars building this enormous research facility on his property so that they could study these bones. He's got warehouses full of them.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. What's his background, like archaeology or something?

• 4:31Joe Rogan?

  No, he was a, he was a swimmer, right? Yeah, he was a swimmer in college and became a gold miner. I mean, he told me the whole, whole, whole story. I don't really totally remember it. But this is not something he wanted to get into. It's like right in the middle near Fairbanks.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  It's near Fairbanks.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So this is, this is where John lives. He, we do a podcast every year. Every year he comes back, like the last podcast of the year generally. And he, uh, gives us an update on what's going on.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, let me take a look at that map. You know, I spent my first year after finishing my psychiatry training in Fairbanks.

• 5:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, did you really?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:13Joe Rogan?

  That's an interesting psychiatry, psychiatry place. Because the psychology of people that live in Alaska is very different. They're different. They're resilient humans.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Well, and they're there for a reason.

• 5:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  And their reason is to be at the end of the road.

• 5:28Joe Rogan?

  Right. Or their family's there and they've grown up there.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:32Joe Rogan?

  But you, you meet like, I felt like I was meeting people from another country. Like I only worked in Alaska once. I did a show in Anchorage. It was a lot of fun. Me and my friend Ari Shafir. We said, let's just fly up there, just like an adventure trip. We'll do some salmon fishing and then we'll go do a show. And that's what we did.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:51Joe Rogan?

  And, um, it's like the people feel different. They feel different. Like they're more, they're, they're made out of harder things. They're like more durable.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Right. When you're up there, did you get outside of Anchorage, like into the interior at all?

• 6:06Joe Rogan?

  We didn't do much traveling. We only kind of, I've been to Alaska a few times. Um, a couple of times for hunting trips. And, um, I always feel the same way. I always feel like it's another country. It's just like, very interesting.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  It's a very strange atmosphere too. You know, the climate and the geology and the feeling. Uh, you know, because you're up so high on the planet.

• 6:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  You're close to the North Pole.

• 6:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. When we were doing shows, I believe it was July or August where we were doing shows and at night after the show was bright out. You go outside, it was like you could see everything. It was, it was weird. It was like, it felt like it was 5:00 PM.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  It's a very strange feeling. Well, in the winter too. Uh, you have maybe a couple of hours of twilight.

• 6:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  And that's it.

• 6:51Joe Rogan?

  And then sometimes all dark for a long time too.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Um, well, that occurs above the Arctic Circle.

• 6:57Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever seen that movie Thirty Days of Night? It's a vampire movie?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, with Kiefer Sutherland.

• 7:02Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no, that is The Lost Boys.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Oh, Lost Boys, right.

• 7:06Joe Rogan?

  Thirty Days of Night was cooler.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:08Joe Rogan?

  Not that there was anything wrong with The Lost Boys, it's a little dated. Thirty Days of Night is more modern and these vampires decided to descend upon this small town where it never turns light so they could just hunt all the time.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's clever. Yeah, vampires are smarter than they look.

• 7:25Joe Rogan?

  These are creepy vampires, too. They've got horrifying teeth. It's interesting how, you know, vampires sort of, we decide that they look like Bela Lugosi. You know, there's Dracula, that must be a vampire. And then some people, they... Have you ever wondered, like, the root of some things like that? Like, I used to think, I used to wholly dismiss ghosts as a young man. You know, when I was a boy, I believed in them because I was young and dumb. And then as I got older, I was like, maybe there's a reason why so... Like, if I've never experienced something and then I do experience it, how am I ever going to explain this to people? Where it's gonna make any sense to someone else that hasn't experienced it before?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Um, well, you're reporting on your subjective experience, right?

• 8:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  And it's one that a lot of people share, and so you can compare notes. It's like dreaming. You can't really prove that you dreamed or that you were in a dream state.

• 8:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a personal experience. Yeah, you know, but as a common one, so you can compare notes. I think that's how it works.

• 8:29Joe Rogan?

  Haven't there been studies done, there's been something done where they've taken people in altered states? And had them go into a room where they experienced, they weren't connected, they weren't communicating, but they experienced incredibly similar environments.

• 8:48Joe Rogan?

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• 9:31Joe Rogan?

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• 10:14Joe Rogan?

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• 10:54Joe Rogan?

  of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, backed by a 90-day money-back guarantee. That's DrinkAG1.com/Joe. I think that's in my big toe. You know, that The Theory of Everything book? Mm-hmm.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  I'm not familiar with it.

• 11:11Joe Rogan?

  I think it's Thomas Campbell, is that, no, is that who wrote that? Yeah, it's really good.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:14Joe Rogan?

  I'm in the middle of that right now.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Uh, it's a big toe.

• 11:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Very strange book.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the name of the book or the name of the experiment?

• 11:22Joe Rogan?

  That's the name of the book. It's my big theory of everything, you know, toe as for theory of everything.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I see, okay. But it has a picture of a toe on the cover.

• 11:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:31Joe Rogan?

  When you were doing, um, the DMT studies, it's kind of a similar thing, right? Like, if you had never experienced that and someone was trying to describe it to you, it would sound completely like nonsense, just like a ghost would.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Right. Or even a dream to somebody who had never dreamed.

• 11:49Joe Rogan?

  Right. Right. Cause there are people who don't dream, right? Which is very strange.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Like, there are people with no imagination, they can't visualize things.

• 11:59Joe Rogan?

  That's so bizarre.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and you give them psychedelics and they report that they can, but, I mean, how do they know that they are?

• 12:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:09Joe Rogan?

  That's an uncomfortable reality, that some people's brains don't work the same way.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, right. Yeah. It's a fact, though.

• 12:15Joe Rogan?

  It, well, it has to be.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:17Joe Rogan?

  I mean, just, just look at, like, cultural choices. Just look, look at the different kinds of music that people enjoy, the different kinds of food that people enjoy, and the, and the different kinds of climate that they enjoy. There is no way we're all seeing the same thing. There's no way. If food that tastes horrible to you is like a sacred delicacy to them.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Mm-huh.

• 12:37Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. One of the ideas I put out in that 2014 book on the prophetic state, uh, the soul of prophecy, I proposed that, you know, people respond ethnically or culturally differently to different endogenous, uh, psychedelics. You know, the emphasis on the enlightenment experience in Buddhism might be because, uh, people in that part of the world produce or are more sensitive to five-methoxy DMT, which gives you that white-out experience. And with the other kind of religious experiences, more DMT-like, because it's full of angels and you speak to things, they speak to you. You know, so there may even be some kind of, you know, differential among people as

• 13:23Speaker 01

  far as, you know, the way they're hardwired for, you know, spiritual experience even.

• 13:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, it kind of makes sense, too, the, if the way they move through the world is through a specific cultural training, right? The way their culture thinks about things and...

• 13:40Joe Rogan?

  Just imagine being born in an atheist secular environment and you're raised by those people and then you meet someone who's born in a fundamentalist Christian, you know, religion.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:54Joe Rogan?

  It's like very strict and then they both meet when they're 14 and compare notes.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 13:58Joe Rogan?

  It'd be the most bizarre versions of the world, right?

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I mean, one version is there is no God and the other version is that there is.

• 14:07Joe Rogan?

  Right, but there's one version that God is not just a part of your life, but the only reason why anything was ever formed, that it's God's plan for everything, that God has, you know, a plan for you and that if you follow the teachings of God, you'll ultimately go to heaven. It's like very structured. Where the other side, it's like, uh, death, life is suffering, there's, you know, who knows what, what happens when you die, but probably nothing.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 14:33Joe Rogan?

  You know, uh, if you feel depressed, you should probably go to the doctor and get a pill.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes, and so you wonder if the atheist biology is different than the believers.

• 14:41Joe Rogan?

  I wonder if it becomes different, right? Cause don't genes turn on and off, expressions of genes based upon stress, based upon environments, a lot of things, right?

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Right, and those changes can be inherited, you know, like, you know, passed on to the next generation and the next generation.

• 14:57Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, that's a, a theory about the syndrome of survivors of the Holocaust and their children and their children. Is that the stress of being, for example, in the camps activated certain genes, which were then in an activated state, uh, you know, passed on to the, you know, following generations.

• 15:16Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, um, we were just, you know, talking about that, like, at what point does trauma end? What point did the effects of trauma end?

• 15:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Is it in the first generation or the second and?

• 15:29Joe Rogan?

  And it's not just trauma, right? It's also just stress, like the hormetic stress of starvation. It actually makes the children of those people live longer.

• 15:41Joe Rogan?

  Dr. Rhonda Patrick's talked about this. It's really interesting.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's one of the spin offs of fasting and starvation. You know, there were a lot, well, you know, speaking of starvation, there are a lot of studies of enforced starvation, like the camps and in Africa at various times. Yeah, you know, so there are some advantages, but I mean, obviously to a point.

• 16:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, obviously we'd never want to ask someone to do that. But when people do it voluntarily, like when they go on these three and five day fasts, I've never met one person who said, "I'll never do that again. That was fucking terrible and stupid."

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:18Joe Rogan?

  And I felt really dumb and I didn't feel alive at all. No, they come back with like this very bizarre euphoric, just like their, their version of it when they're expressing themselves. It seems like they were like on mushrooms.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:31Joe Rogan?

  Weird.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Is, is that something you've tried?

• 16:33Joe Rogan?

  No, I've done a day.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  I, I've done a day and I sneak in some espresso if I'm feeling, you know, deprived.

• 16:39Joe Rogan?

  I don't think, I think that's fine because this espresso doesn't, I mean.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  No calories.

• 16:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, there's no calories. Yeah, um, I should do it. I should probably do like a three day, see what's up. Cause my friend Dana just did it. He did, I think Dana did a four, a three or four day. He said it was incredible. But everybody reports all this energy, which is really fascinating because I guess that's your body surviving off ketones.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Oh, right. You're in a ketotic state. Well, when people fast for three or four days, do they drink water or they?

• 17:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they drink, oh, you have to. I mean, there's a thing called a dry fast and people have done that. I've heard of people doing like 48 hour dry fasts and that is no water as well.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:18Joe Rogan?

  You can keep that. And I'm so not interested in that.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Well, you can go on a vision quest, like out in the desert, not drink or not eat, and you do start hallucinating.

• 17:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I love McKenna's take on that. Do you know that?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 17:33Joe Rogan?

  He told a story about how this monk, the Buddha was in town, this monk went to visit the Buddha. And he told the monk that he's practiced a city of levitation for the past 10 years and now he can walk on water. And the Buddha goes, "Yeah, but the ferry's only a nickel."

• 17:49Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 17:51Joe Rogan?

  Cause here's my take on some of these things. Just because it's hard to do doesn't always mean it's good to do. Like, there are things that are hard to do, but they're good to do. Like, if you could run a marathon, at the end of that marathon, you're like, wow, I really did something. And you feel good and like, wow, you're a little beat up, but you, you have a new faith in yourself. That's good to do. It's hard to do, but good to do. But if you run for like seven days and you almost die. Maybe. Maybe you've crossed that line.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Well, I think a flip side of that is, simple things can be good for you. They don't have to be hard.

• 18:26Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:27Joe Rogan?

  No, things don't have to be hard to be good for you. A puppy smiling or licking you and playing with you is good for you. It's like, literally, like, it's good for your body. Like, when people play with puppies, that happiness feeling that you get, like, what are you doing? What are you doing?

• 18:42Speaker 01

  I know.

• 18:42Joe Rogan?

  That's actually really good for you.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Ah, right. Well, this new neighborhood I moved into in May, there's a park, Altra Park. You wouldn't believe the number of dogs that are being walked around there. There's these little tiny ones, you know, like, I haven't lived in the city in a long time. I haven't seen tiny dogs, but, man, there's some tiny dogs out there.

• 19:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Jamie's got a tiny one. He didn't bring him in today, but Carl's a little maniac. He's a little French poodle, a French bulldog. He's like that big.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're cute.

• 19:09Joe Rogan?

  He's adorable.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  What does he weigh?

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Uh, he's sixteen pounds now.

• 19:14Joe Rogan?

  He's jacked.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, he sounds.

• 19:16Joe Rogan?

  He really is jacked. He's got a lot of muscles. He's super aggressive, not with people, like, not like real aggressive, like playful. He just wants to play constantly.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:24Joe Rogan?

  So I bring my dog, who's a golden retriever, who's the opposite. He's just everybody's best friend. If he meets you, he's like, you're my best friend. He loves everybody.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:32Joe Rogan?

  And Carl just launches himself at him.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, the one dog I had was a miniature dachshund.

• 19:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that was a cute little dog.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  He was tough. He barked.

• 19:41Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  He bit, he, he, he bit children.

• 19:43Joe Rogan?

  That's not good. That's not tough. He's an asshole. Boy, that dog is an asshole.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:49Joe Rogan?

  That sucks.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Well, he lived twenty-five years.

• 19:51Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, if I lived twenty-five years and I was a dog, I'd probably start biting kids too.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 19:55Joe Rogan?

  Get me out of here.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Well, you know, toward the end, he's wearing a diaper.

• 20:00Joe Rogan?

  Oof. I had a mastiff, and they unfortunately don't live very long. And towards the end, I used to have to carry him outside to go to the bathroom. He couldn't even walk. That's the real bummer is that you just love these creatures so much and they only live ten years, twelve years, thirteen years, you know?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Well, do you replace it?

• 20:17Joe Rogan?

  No, you never replace it. You get another dog. You could always love other dogs. I don't think there's anything wrong. I don't think it's like disrespectful to your dog to get a new dog when they die.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  It it wants you to be happy.

• 20:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with it. It's dead. It's about you. Like, there's, this is needless suffering. Do you love dogs? Do you miss having a dog? Get another dog. Like, this idea you have to mourn your dog for a specific period of time, like, it's not a wife. Okay, if your if your wife dies and then ne- next Friday night you're on a date, like, that seems a little crazy. Like, you should probably be sad for a long time. But if your dog dies, like, come on, man. Get another fucking dog.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Right. Well, if it's your whole life, you know.

• 20:58Joe Rogan?

  I love dogs. I would never want to not have a dog. I just don't get it.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, those mastiffs are big.

• 21:04Joe Rogan?

  They're, he was a big fella, but they get a lot of like real problems with their joints, because it's just so much weight. Karen roll out weight.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about Alaska and up in Fairbanks. Uh, yeah, I was a psychiatrist for the county for about a year.

• 21:19Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing. Well, it was interesting because I had kind of given up the idea of doing research. And I thought, oh, just in practice, psychiatry, my girlfriend back then wanted to be a wildlife biologist.

• 21:32Joe Rogan?

  Perfect place for that.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, they've got a great department at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks. Um, yeah, so we spent two months driving up there from Sacramento, just had a great time.

• 21:42Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  And, uh, then I started working up there for a, it was for about a year. Cold. The cold, the lowest it got down to was minus forty-nine one, one day in February.

• 21:56Joe Rogan?

  And you're from New Mexico.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Well, Los Angeles, actually.

• 21:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, at that time?

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, it was snowing around Halloween, so I wasn't, you know, dressed for snow. I'd never really lived in snow, so.

• 22:06Joe Rogan?

  What was that like, the going from Los Angeles to minus thirty-nine?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Well, I started to work on enjoying the dark. Uh, like, you know, as a rule, you know, people don't like the dark. But there's forest all around town and it's it's dark, and especially in the winter, there's eighteen, twenty hours of pitch black.

• 22:27Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I tried to imagine myself liking the dark.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  And it wasn't all that successful. I lasted about a year.

• 22:37Joe Rogan?

  Is there a thing that happens, like, I lived in Boston when I was a kid? And one thing that it really does benefit you with bad weather is that when you have bad winters, you really love those summers. Those summers are so special. When me and my friends would like go out on a summer night, it's like we, it's like we were so happy. It was warm out, we're outside, we're listening to music, hanging out together.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Boston, huh?

• 23:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Is that because you have family there?

• 23:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, no, my family moved there when I was 13. So we moved, we lived in Jamaica Plain for a year, and then we lived in Newton, which is a suburb of Boston, which is really, it was a really nice, cool place to grow up.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was in the Bronx for medical school.

• 23:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  The Bronx, New York, and I lived in the city for about a year. Yeah, it was, like, it was great training.

• 23:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, when you get, well, I'd imagine the characters you'd meet.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:36Joe Rogan?

  And the characters you'd meet in Alaska. I bet you met a lot of people on the run.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  You know, I met a lot of Christians up in Alaska.

• 23:45Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:46Joe Rogan?

  Mostly?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Well, my patient population, everybody, a lot of, the majority of people were pretty devout churchgoers.

• 23:54Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And very strict about observance of the regulations in the Bible.

• 24:00Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  You know, so it was a fairly conservative type of city.

• 24:06Joe Rogan?

  That's interesting. Like, did they impose it on other people? Like, did they have a gay community up there?

• 24:11Speaker 01

  They mostly imposed it on their kids.

• 24:14Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, the family dynamics up there were pretty stressful.

• 24:18Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  You know, also cocaine, too, because it's so dark and people get so depressed.

• 24:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, man.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know, Fairbanks had a boom when they built the oil pipeline between Prudhoe Bay and Anchorage. And so, you know, Fairbanks exploded in population, and when I moved there, it'd been shrinking a bit. It's got the university, which is pretty cool up there, and amazing countryside, huge rivers, just enormous rivers. The one outside of town was a good half mile across.

• 24:48Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I went skiing out there once, at 25 below, on the frozen river. It's like, oh, this is pretty nice. And I'm... Along the shore and there's a dark spot in the middle of the river. And I've, I'm curious, I ski over into that dark spot, it's open water.

• 25:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  In the middle of a quarter mile.

• 25:11Joe Rogan?

  And you're out there with your weight on skis.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  So I backed up, yeah, skied back to the shore. And I felt really tired all of a sudden.

• 25:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  And I looked, I looked down at the snow and I thought, well, maybe I could just take a little nap. And I thought, well, you know, I'm getting hypothermic, let me run back to the car.

• 25:30Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that's what it was?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was funny, I wasn't cold, I wasn't shivering or anything, but I just got really sleepy.

• 25:38Joe Rogan?

  They say before you die, you actually want to take your clothes off, which is really crazy.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's what I've heard, like in the, in the snow when you're freezing.

• 25:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I kind of remember that.

• 25:47Joe Rogan?

  Oof.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  And then the, and you know, the bears up there are forced to contend with, you know, the grizzly bears.

• 25:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, man.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of my friends up there was living in a cabin and a bear just stuck his claws in the door, pulled the door out of the frame of the house.

• 26:06Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  And went into the refrigerator, basically, and it kind of cleared that out.

• 26:13Joe Rogan?

  So was it, was he home?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Uh, up in his loft, yeah, sleeping.

• 26:17Joe Rogan?

  So he was awake while this was going on?

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, so it just smelled food?

• 26:23Speaker 01

  It smelled food, it smelled him, yeah, so.

• 26:26Joe Rogan?

  And they don't abide by any rules, they don't really care about your door?

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Well, you know, when I was up there, I learned to shoot a shotgun. It's called a bear stopper, it's a sawed off shotgun you can carry with you if you're in the back country. Yeah, you know, so they're just a.

• 26:43Joe Rogan?

  Like a 12 gauge?

• 26:45Speaker 01

  I think it was a 12 gauge.

• 26:46Joe Rogan?

  Do you have slugs in it or is it buckshot?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, it had buckshot.

• 26:50Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Uh, so does that make it a 12 gauge?

• 26:53Joe Rogan?

  No, it's all depend of the round, so a slug is like a chunk of lead and buckshot is like a bunch of pellets.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:02Joe Rogan?

  So the buckshot is like, it scatters into a pattern and the further it is from the rifle barrel, like how far you're shooting, it's sort of shooting 20 yards, it scatters quite a bit and it makes a, an area of impact about that big, like a basketball sized.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:17Joe Rogan?

  Or maybe a little smaller than that, but like a slug is a single object and it has a lot more force behind it. So if you're shooting a bear, I would want a slug.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  I think it was a, it was, you know, shot.

• 27:33Joe Rogan?

  It's a deterrent, though. I mean, you'll certainly deter them with buckshot.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you have a wide spray, it will deter them. I kind of remember, although this may be wrong, that one barrel had, you know, buckshot in it and the other had a slug.

• 27:48Joe Rogan?

  Okay, that makes sense.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you can slow it down.

• 27:51Joe Rogan?

  You probably shoot the first shot to try to slow them down and/or to try to discourage them, and if that doesn't work, the second one's lethal.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  All right, then they're much closer to you at that point.

• 28:02Joe Rogan?

  Jeez.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it is a pretty fun place to live in some ways.

• 28:07Joe Rogan?

  I think just that alone, the environment, just the fact that it gets that cold, it's so dangerous, everybody kind of has to stick together. You have to help people. If you see people stranded on the side of the road, you don't just pass them. You have to help them. A person might be dying in there. And if you can get them out of there and get them to safety, you're supposed to do that. So people like bond together a little bit more up there.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Well, and there's also the northern lights, which are just incredible.

• 28:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, the reds and the greens.

• 28:32Joe Rogan?

  How often? Did you see those every year?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Pretty much every night in the winter. And it was so quiet up there, you could actually, you know, listen, you know, to the northern lights. They'd hiss and crackle.

• 28:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was pretty wild.

• 28:45Joe Rogan?

  They hiss and crackle?

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:47Joe Rogan?

  What exactly is going on with the northern lights? Like, what is that caused by?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  The magnetosphere and some-

• 28:55Joe Rogan?

  Solar rays? Like, what is, what is?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Might be cosmic, might be, it wouldn't be solar rays because it's dark, right?

• 29:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:04Joe Rogan?

  Unless it's like something that like is coming around the earth.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:07Joe Rogan?

  What are they, Jamie?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Are they cosmic rays?

• 29:10Joe Rogan?

  Must be something.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:12Joe Rogan?

  Coronal mass ejections. Coronal mass ejects, so solar.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  And magnetic activity. I guess there's a few reasons why they could be created. I'm looking through this article.

• 29:21Joe Rogan?

  That alone might be worth living up there for.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Well, in the winter. You could just spend a week up there in the winter and, you know, there's all kinds of hot springs in the area, too.

• 29:32Joe Rogan?

  How hard is it to get around in the winter?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Uh, your car needs to be equipped. There's these things called battery blankets that you put under your battery to keep it warm. And there's

• 29:43Joe Rogan?

  You heat it?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:45Joe Rogan?

  Plug it in?

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's, uh, you know, plugged in to, um, traffic, you know, to a parking meter or to the outside of a building. Yeah, everybody keeps their vehicles, you know, plugged in during the day when they're at work.

• 29:57Joe Rogan?

  You'd have to, right?

• 29:58Speaker 01

  You'd have to, yeah. And the other, um, uh, modification is an oil pan heater, uh, which is the same, you know, basic principle. I mean, it keeps the oil from turning into a solid block. Yeah. You know, when it gets really cold, your tires are square.

• 30:16Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 30:17Speaker 01

  And it's really hard to drive around in for the first couple of miles.

• 30:21Joe Rogan?

  They have to warm up?

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Uh, you have to drive them slow to get them warmed up again.

• 30:26Joe Rogan?

  Cause otherwise they're like flattened down at the bottom where your car's been sitting?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:30Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, cold.

• 30:31Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:33Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it amazing they still have to fill tires with air? That seems like the stupidest thing. Like, if you can get those people that are working on AI to just take a couple of years off and figure out tires, just take all these people that are making computers and figure out something that you don't have to put air in.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Um, with, yes, with my garden tools or my garden carts, I use, I, you know, solid, uh, you know, solid tires.

• 30:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  But they're a lot heavier. You know, they never, uh, puncture.

• 31:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, the, but there's a give factor with tires. It's important to handling. You know, there's, there's things that are going on dynamically with tires when you're going around corners and your car has grip, you know, especially if you're like, if you're off-roading, right? They deflate their tires quite a bit.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:18Joe Rogan?

  To get more traction.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Uh, well, and it also will, um,

• 31:23Joe Rogan?

  Widens your footprint.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  It widens your footprint so you won't get stuck in sand.

• 31:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I used to spend a lot of time in, uh, Death Valley.

• 31:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow, driving around the sand?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and then, you know, the canyons, you know, to the east and to the west of the valley.

• 31:36Joe Rogan?

  So I guess that's the benefit of air is that you can air them down and do stuff with them. But it seems like the negative side of it of getting a flat and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere because you don't have any air in your tire. That seems crazy.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:48Joe Rogan?

  It's so vulnerable.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:50Joe Rogan?

  Like, the one thing of your car, someone could choose to come by and go, "Ch-ch-ch", stab your tire, and now your car's useless.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:57Joe Rogan?

  So vulnerable.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, flat tires. Um, so have you spent your time in death?

• 32:04Joe Rogan?

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• 33:32Joe Rogan?

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• 34:06Speaker 03

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• 34:28Joe Rogan?

  No, no.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  It's a great, well, if you still, like, you still like to take psychedelics, huh?

• 34:37Joe Rogan?

  Who doesn't like to take psychedelics?

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, the best place, or one of the best places is Death Valley.

• 34:43Joe Rogan?

  That's what I've heard.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:44Joe Rogan?

  I've had friends that have had mushroom experiences out there.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've had some amazing, it's huge, first of all, and it's really old, there's rocks out there that are two billion years old.

• 34:55Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  And you are, you know, tripping, for example, and you're, you know, touching these two billion years old, uh, two billion years old rocks, and you really feel something that you don't feel anywhere else.

• 35:08Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Very slow-moving, it's the wind, too, there's great wind, I learned to watch the wind there, you can see, like, a shrub at, like, a hundred yards away, and it's, amen, it's moving, and you can follow the wind as it goes up and down the canyon until it reaches you.

• 35:28Joe Rogan?

  Right, you can see the particles it's carrying and stuff.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, mostly the movement of the bushes, the shrubs, yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a lot of firsts in Death Valley.

• 35:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Like, in a lot of ways, I think I'm still working on some of those insights or those experiences, which I had in my late teens, early twenties.

• 35:48Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that kind of always the case, though?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  I, I think we come up with our best ideas from nineteen to twenty-one.

• 35:54Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 35:55Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 35:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy, I'm in trouble then, because I don't have very many ideas.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Well, you must have had, you know, some experiences that steered you in a particular direction, didn't you?

• 36:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I guess I did, yeah. But, you know, until I was, uh, twenty-one, my whole life was martial arts, just martial arts training, so my, you know, anything that I was interested in was interested in to make that better, so I'd read, like, The Book of Five Rings, like Miyamoto Musashi, I'd read a lot of psychology books, I read books on discipline, I read a lot of different books on how to control your mind under stress and things along those lines.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it was a formative time then, right?

• 36:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was definitely formative in that way.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you absorbed a lot.

• 36:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I definitely absorbed a lot out of that, it's just I didn't have... Hardly, I had almost zero ideas outside of martial arts. I didn't care what was going on in the world. I was not paying attention to politics. I was not paying attention to world events. As long as we didn't go to war with Russia, all I wanted to do was train.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and, you know, and look at you now.

• 37:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, it opened up the door for a lot of other stuff, but at the time, if you had asked me questions, I would, I would not have been a good person to talk to.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. What kind of questions wouldn't you have been able to answer back then?

• 37:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, I knew nothing about the world, like, nothing. Like, I knew nothing about other countries. I knew nothing about the way politics work. I didn't, I didn't have, I had no interest in the economy. I didn't care at all. I didn't know how anything works. I don't know the rules to any sports. I didn't know what's happening when a basketball game's going on unless the ball goes in the net. I don't know the rules of football. I don't, I didn't know anything, like, most of my life, because it was, all I was thinking about was martial arts when I was young.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like being a monk, almost.

• 37:51Joe Rogan?

  In a lot of ways, it was. Because the way we try, the way we treated the gym, like, I remember I had this girlfriend in high school, and she wanted to fool around at the gym, and it was the doujang, is what it's called. But I, I used to teach there, and I had keys, so I was there. And she wanted to fool around there. I'm like, there's no way. You can't, we can't do anything here.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  It's like a church or a temple.

• 38:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Like, I was seventeen, eighteen years old, however I was. Like, kids are so horny. Like, anytime you're alone, you get a chance that she wants to do it, and I was like, we can't do it here. This is not possible. We can't do it in the locker room. We can't do it in the premises. Like, this is a church.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  The ground you stand on is holy ground.

• 38:34Joe Rogan?

  It was to me. Because to me, it was like, this... This place is, this is where I, this is where I'm serious. This is like a different place.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 38:45Joe Rogan?

  The rest of the world is the rest of the world, but in this place, I control myself. I control the environment. I, I, I exist by the rules. And there's very strict rules. You bow every, even if no one was around, I bowed to the flag every time I entered into the Dojang.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Uh, to the flag?

• 39:03Joe Rogan?

  Always.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, what did that?

• 39:04Joe Rogan?

  It was a Korean flag.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so what did it represent?

• 39:07Joe Rogan?

  It just represented respect.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Respect for the country?

• 39:10Joe Rogan?

  For the space that you're in, like you're bowing before you enter this space. Like, it didn't matter if it was a flag. I wasn't really bowing to South Korea. I was bowing to the idea that this is a very sacred space that I'm going into.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, in my Zen training over the years, we did a lot of bowing. Uh, to statues, to people, to images, to photographs.

• 39:34Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Um, you know, before we ate, we would, you know, bow to the food.

• 39:38Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so lots of bowing. Uh, it's an interesting experience to bow, to really kind of get yourself together and lo- lower your head and be humble, to be, you know, like in the presence of something greater.

• 39:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think it's beneficial for people. I think, uh, that kind of voluntary humility is very important. And if you can establish that as an ethic and sort of get it into your psychology.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Uh, well, you know, it's really important to be humble. I've been studying about humility. There's this, this great line, humility is the ladder through which one can grasp every other good thing.

• 40:14Joe Rogan?

  Ooh. That is great.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, I try to read this once a week and.

• 40:20Joe Rogan?

  That really is great.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, and I'm gonna be really humble. I might be the most humble person there ever was.

• 40:26Joe Rogan?

  I like how you got that. You've actually photocopied that. Like, it's got the darkness where the binder is in the center.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's a serious thing.

• 40:34Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome. That's awesome. What a great quote. Yeah, it's like to not be humble. It's like, it's, we like our sports stars to not be humble and that's about it. Everybody else, we appreciate a little humility. Even sports stars, you know, praise Jesus or something.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, can you be too humble?

• 40:51Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Which would look like what?

• 40:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, you can be too humble in the sense that you don't have confidence in your ability to do something that is sort of open, some open-ended, you don't know how it's gonna turn out, something where it's dangerous, you're gonna take a risk, you have to be bold, you have to, you have to have enough confidence in yourself that you can navigate a thing that very few people navigate. You know, if you choose to start your own business, if you choose to like quit what you're doing and go on a journey because you really feel compelled to do, have other life experiences. If you're too humble, you might not be willing to bet on yourself. And I think that would ultimately be bad.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think one of the things too about being too humble is you just suppress all of your feelings. You, you think you should have no feelings at all. In other words, you know, responding to things in your world, insults or harm being, you know.

• 41:50Joe Rogan?

  Right, so you can get in a bad relationship and have someone yelling at you all the time and you just, you're humble, you handle it.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Well, if you think you're humble, you might not be able to handle it, although you might pretend that you are.

• 42:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you pretend long enough, you become.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Humble.

• 42:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you could become, you know what I always tell guys, I say this whenever possible.

• 42:13Joe Rogan?

  You should aspire to be the person you pretend to be when you're trying to get laid.

• 42:19Joe Rogan?

  Like, who do you, who do you pretend to be when you're trying to get laid? Pretend to be really interesting, really nice, really kind. Just wouldn't, wouldn't it be easier just be that person? Like, but there's like a success aspect of the courtship thing where you wanna like show your success, which is anti-humble.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:37Joe Rogan?

  But you gotta be careful with doing it, cause then you look braggy, but you wanna like show the person that you're dating, that you're valuable, you're a person who can accomplish things. But so many people just put on a show when they're meeting people, like they're dating, they put on a show. They pretend to be someone who they're not, I'm like, wouldn't it be better if you just become that person?

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's one of the advantages of Zoom, is there's no pressure when you first meet someone.

• 43:02Joe Rogan?

  Who, who's having Zoom dates, are people doing that?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  I've done it.

• 43:08Joe Rogan?

  Fuck you, you freak.

• 43:11Joe Rogan?

  It's a good move.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:12Joe Rogan?

  It's like, almost like a podcast.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Well, and you wouldn't necessarily feel the pressure to, you know, go to bed right away.

• 43:19Joe Rogan?

  Of course. And you don't feel the pressure to like, have to get out of the situation if it doesn't go well. You can just kind of hang up. Bye.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you can-

• 43:28Joe Rogan?

  If you meet somebody, it's rough. You don't want to just abandon them.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Well, you can keep it low profile too. You could just be in your bathroom, you know, sitting on the toilet, you know, talking to your friend. Yeah.

• 43:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:39Joe Rogan?

  Keeping it low profile, keeping it casual. But like, if you look at the numbers, you're seeing the numbers of the way people met in the past versus today.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  I think it's 25% meet online now and get married.

• 43:52Joe Rogan?

  I think it's more than that.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 43:53Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a really high percentage of people who meet today meet online. But the thing is, this was a video. So it showed like 1900s.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:03Joe Rogan?

  Where like, everybody sort of met either through family or through church, that kind of deal. And then over time, it becomes women enter the workplace, and then people are meeting people at work, and then the internet comes along. It just-

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do you think of arranged marriages?

• 44:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, it sounds terrible. It sounds like you don't have any choice. And if you have domineering parents, then your parents are going to match you up with somebody else's kid because they're friends with this guy, and you know, this guy's son is looking for a wife, and you're a lady that as a dad that tells you what to do, and you're like, what am I, why? I don't want to marry this guy. I don't even know this guy.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Well, your parents would need to be straight shooters. You would want to-

• 44:52Joe Rogan?

  If your parents are straight shooters, would they be doing an arranged marriage?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  In certain cultures, yeah, there are a lot of arranged marriages. And I think they do tend to work out. I haven't looked at the data, but they couldn't do worse than the marriage's, you know, success rate nowadays.

• 45:06Joe Rogan?

  If you could leave a little pad of paper and a pen just laying around so they could write you a note, and no one knows about it, what's really going on? I bet it'd be like a message in the bottle. Like, "Come save me. Help me." How's Linda doing over there? Oh, she loves it. She loves this arranged marriage. She can't go anywhere. Where's she gonna go? If you're in the kind of controlling culture that even considers an arranged marriage. You know, I mean, it's a very strict culture. Not saying it's negative, but it's very strict. And if you have great parents and they, they're really wise in their choices, and you're in a culture that has an arranged marriage, and your parents are really super kind and generous, and they trust you, and they love you, and they think you're amazing, and then they want to hook you up with an amazing person,

• 45:51Joe Rogan?

  maybe it can work out. But generally, I think you give people the freedom to do whatever they want to do. And maybe that lady never wants to get married. Maybe she's decided, like, I don't like how this is. I want to throw myself into my work. I want to travel the world. I want to do this. Like, you could do whatever the fuck you want to do in your ride.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that wouldn't work in those kinds of cultures, no.

• 46:11Joe Rogan?

  So I don't like that. I don't like that. I don't like anything where people are telling you what to do. And that's what an arranged marriage is. It's someone's telling you what to do. If you can't say no, I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm ignorant. Okay, I should say, like, maybe an arranged marriage is a proposal. Like, they propose this arranged marriage, and they both agree on it. Maybe, if that's what you're into.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  I, I think that's the case, that if there's no chemistry at all, and the woman or the guy says, "Forget it, I'm not interested." I think you're free to.

• 46:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, I would hope so.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:43Joe Rogan?

  But I would guarantee you that's not always the case. Especially in some more restrictive parts of the world, where women, you know, are forced to, like, follow completely different rules than the men, that, which is, you know, a reality of the world we're living in today. There's parts of the world where they think in a very archaic way, and women are second-class citizens.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, the Mideast. I mean, look at that place. It's, it's just. It it's a blaze.

• 47:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  It's a blaze.

• 47:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, I have a good friend of mine who um came on the podcast recently and was talking about his experiences in Afghanistan, how crazy it is there. And he's like, it's like you're going back in time a thousand years. Like the way women are treated and children are treated, the amount of pedophiles and open molestation of boys and just

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:38Joe Rogan?

  murder and

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Why do you think, at least in particular, you know, that Jerusalem is just such a hotbed? It's it's a point of contact and conflict for all three major religions.

• 47:51Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Islam, Christianity.

• 47:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  And uh I mean Judaism all claim that small bit of land. I wonder what it is about that that that part of the world.

• 48:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's gotta be from the Bible, right? I mean, that's the for the significance of it as holy land. You know, the the the concept of holy land is always so so it if there's a place where it it is literally in the Bible that this is the place where Jesus is going to return to.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 48:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is gonna be a place where people do battle over. Like you you can't let the enemy control the place where Jesus comes back to. Because what if Jesus comes back and they immediately snuff him out because they're Islamists?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Right. Oh, um, well, it goes even further back than that. You know, it was the location of the temple. The the temple of the God of the Hebrews was built in Jerusalem, the first and the second.

• 48:46Joe Rogan?

  How much history is there? Like, how far does it go back?

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Well, you know, Judaism began, what, maybe four thousand years ago. And the first temple was built. Oh, gosh, I should know this. Um, it stood for four hundred years. Then it was destroyed. And the second temple lasted around four hundred years. It was destroyed in uh seventy C E. The second temple. When was the first, you know, temple in existence, Jamie?

• 49:15Joe Rogan?

  So even if that's if that's the timeline, so that we're we're looking at about four thousand years, right?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  You know, like Abraham, you know, the first of the Hebrews, lived around eighteen, eighteen hundred BCE?

• 49:34Joe Rogan?

  So, two thousand BCE, the first known mention of the city. So, that's two thousand, two thousand before current era in Middle Kingdom Egyptian, how do you say that? Excration? Excration texts? What does that mean?

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Uh, execration texts?

• 49:50Joe Rogan?

  Excration?

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, curses.

• 49:52Joe Rogan?

  Curses?

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:54Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, execrations are curses, extreme curses.

• 49:59Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you execrate someone, you're really cursing them.

• 50:03Joe Rogan?

  Ancient Egyptian hieratic texts listing the enemies of the pharaoh, most often the enemies of Egyptian state or troublesome foreign neighbors. The texts were most often written upon statuettes of bound foreigners.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:18Joe Rogan?

  Bowls, or what was the other word it said there? It said bowls or, it's blocked now.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Excration texts, yeah.

• 50:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, or blocks of clay or stone. Wow.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of Egyptian execration texts.

• 50:36Joe Rogan?

  Jesus. How wild.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Jerusalem is an old city, and you know, the temples were there a long, long time ago. Um, yeah, and you know, the location of the temples relates to dreams of Jacob, who was laying on the ground and on a stone and, you know, made of, of a vow, you know, to God, you know, the God of the Hebrews, who, you know, Jacob was, was communing with, to build a house of the Lord there. Hmm. Uh, and so, you know, there's a long history of that, that, uh, part of the world being associated with the patriarchs and with the temple. You know, Christianity has an association to Jerusalem because of, of Jesus. I'm not sure what the connection between Islam and Jerusalem is.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  It's, you know, clearly more recent.

• 51:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, isn't it always a sort of situation where when someone really likes a thing, everybody wants it?

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:34Joe Rogan?

  You know.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Well, there's things called greed, envy, and jealousy.

• 51:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I've always, you know, liked the distinction among those three qualities.

• 51:45Joe Rogan?

  Here it says Jerusalem is revered by Muslims as the third holiest place on earth. And the pilgrimage to Jerusalem is viewed as an optimal, uh, optional, rather, compliment to the pilgrimage to Mecca. The Hajj. Unlike the Hajj, the pilgrimage pilgrimage to Jerusalem is undertaken individually at any time of the year.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, you know, I've never been to Israel.

• 52:10Joe Rogan?

  Now's not a good time.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  No, no. And, you know, there's this thing called the Jerusalem complex.

• 52:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've heard of that before.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  You are like.

• 52:19Joe Rogan?

  You think you're Messiah when you get there.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Right, right. I'm the Messiah. Right. So, you know, that might be a problem.

• 52:28Joe Rogan?

  You could see how it'd really be a problem if someone was inclined to that, you know, headed in that direction.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think, you know, one of the problems with the current, you know, psychedelic scene is this messianism. You know, that's going to heal everything. There'll be world peace. It'll be a utopia.

• 52:45Joe Rogan?

  There's also, um, I think, a prevalence of this, uh, kind of spiritual narcissism. It's.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Oh, good. I'm glad you see that. Yeah, it's important.

• 52:54Joe Rogan?

  It's a prevalence of it. It seems like there's a lot of people that, um, attach themselves to this thing. And then use this to behave in a completely different way. They behave like they're the, instead of a person who's experiencing it like everybody else. They're like a leader, right? And I think there's a real danger in that, expressing these thoughts to other people as pure facts. You know, the way to live your life. Like, listen, you don't know how. Stop. Okay, there's ways. There's ways you've learned to live your life better because of that. You should be just talking about those experiences. But when you start giving people instruction and how to do things and then, you know, organizing people together. I think that's a symptom of this spiritual narcissism.

• 53:39Joe Rogan?

  That people, if you're attached to this, you're attached to something divine, which we, I think we would both agree it is. You can imagine that you are divine, or you can project that you are divine. You know, I think there's a temptation to do that.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think it strengthens pre-existing, you know, for example, personality traits like you're saying. Like if you're a narcissistic person and you trip, you'll just get more enamored with yourself. More convinced that what you think is true.

• 54:13Joe Rogan?

  That seems terrible.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's one of the dark sides of psychedelics.

• 54:17Joe Rogan?

  That well, that's weird, right? Because a- as you were saying before, like there's people that want to think it's like a cure-all. It's not necessarily, it's a tool.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:26Joe Rogan?

  And if it was a cure-all, it would have already cured us. We would have been cured like thousands of years ago. We would have, people would have worked out all this nonsense.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Right, right. I think it just works on what's already in your head. You may not acknowledge it, or think about it, or even remember it, and psychedelics will shed light on what's already there.

• 54:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, how about the Vikings? Right? I mean, they would, they would take mushrooms before they kill people.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  The Berserkers?

• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Berserkers. Well, see, I mean, you could do anything you already, you know, believe in, yeah.

• 54:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and something you're already, you know, you're inclined to believe.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:02Joe Rogan?

  You believe that it's good to go slaughter people.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think that's one of the interesting things about, about, you know, Brian Yuriski's book.

• 55:10Joe Rogan?

  Mm-mm.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Is that I don't think these ideas came from the drugs. I think they were just made more manifest, more meaningful, more real than they were before, you know, because of, of the drugs. You know, so if you're a Viking and you want to go out and kill, if you're, um, living in a religious community with certain beliefs and you want to believe them even more firmly, or practice more intensely, uh, you know psychedelics could have that effect.

• 55:36Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense. I mean, again, like, we're talking about, like, the culture that you live in is that this is the view, this, the, whatever the constraints of that culture, this is the window in which you view the world. You view it through this culture.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 55:53Joe Rogan?

  And you view it through these, these belief systems that you have sort of adopted over time.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's what's going, that's what's going on with the beings in the DMT world. I, I don't think they are necessarily freestanding intelligences, but, you know, they're the way our, our culture, our, our personal culture and our larger culture en, en rap in a visible, in, in a visible, you know, form, certain information, certain kinds of input, either from the outside world or in your own mind. You, you know, so it's, you know, culture-specific, I think, you know, the visions, uh, you know, that you would see. I don't think they're like aliens from another planet, although I kind of thought that in the beginning, uh, but as time has gone on and I've heard more and more stories,

• 56:39Speaker 01

  I'm more inclined to believe these are simply, you know, projections, you know, taking the garb of, uh, you know, the personal, you know, milieu.

• 56:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, maybe. That's the problem. The problem is, yeah, maybe.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:53Joe Rogan?

  Because, like, you can go down that road and just decide, oh, no, no, no, that what these are, these are thoughts, and thoughts have a consciousness of their own, and we think of them as being independent, like, they're, they're, they're just created by the human mind, but no, the human mind's probably tuning into these things and they can appear as entities. I think thoughts might be a living thing.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Um, well, they could be-

• 57:20Joe Rogan?

  It sounds stupid to say out loud.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:22Joe Rogan?

  But the idea is, everything that exists on Earth that humans have created, every single one of them came from an idea, which is weird.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:33Joe Rogan?

  Because it's had so much of an impact, so much of an impact on the world.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Well, you know, one of the ideas in the, in the medieval, uh, you know, philosophers was that, is that, you know, thought, or, you know, thoughts are intermediaries between you and God. You know, they're angels, which are exchanged between you and some divine external, you know, source of information.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  You know, so if you're thinking of how thoughts have directed the world's, you know, growth, I mean, you could even extrapolate to, well, you know, maybe it's, you know, the divine, you know, plan, you know, for humanity.

• 58:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's certainly something going on. If you just, if you objectively just step outside of human culture and just watch the world, it's certainly moving in a very specific direction, and that direction is tech, very much technologically driven. There's something really crazy going on in a, in a technological direction. And then, all that stuff is coming from ideas. So ideas are popping into people's heads, they're, over the course of hundreds and thousands of years, these ideas are propagated and given to other people and they expand upon them, and then more ideas take place, and then more execution of these ideas, and it changes the landscape, and changes the ocean, and it changes the seas. It's very, very weird.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's a, you know, case of cause and effect. Certain, you know, causes produce certain effects. And the rules of nature, let's say, or the rules of, of thought, you know, like how the brain creates thought, you know, they are, you know, regulated in a particular manner. You know, there's an order to chemistry, certain chemical reactions occur for this or that reason. You know, so, um, it's as if, you know, the system is already set up to encourage certain behaviors, have certain ones, certain ideas form, and other ones not form.

• 59:40Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  You know, cause and effect, if you, you know, like if something, you know, bad happens to you, it's because of what happened before, or something good happens to you, it's because of what happened before. You know, so you learn from your experience to do things that result in you feeling better, you know, positive outcome. You know, so, you know, the system is, is, is developed that way. That, you know, that, for example, if, if you get angry, you might stub your toe. You know, that's how it works, and you're in pain, and you think, oh, I shouldn't be angry. Or you're nice to someone and they're nice to you, as opposed to being mean to you, so. You know, I think, you know, the world, I think existence on a setup in a certain way to encourage certain behaviors and discourage others.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  You know, that's what's weird. I think, you know, the technological stuff is pretty interesting now.

• 1:00:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  You know, but it bespeaks like a, you know, larger phenomenon, which is, you know, how, you know, cause and effect has been set up.

• 1:00:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's how cause and effect has been set up, but it's also, there's a, there's a very weird competitive drive towards technological innovation that exists with people because it's attached to monetary gain, right? And the companies that are involved in the most technological sophisticated work, whether it's AI or whether it's social media, like when you're programming things in giant scale, it's incredibly profitable, incredibly profitable. And the technology moves along with the profit. And ultimately, it's got to make a being. It's pretty close, pretty close to making a being.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the future lies as much in, you know, genetic engineering as well.

• 1:01:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, it's not like it's binary.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:34Joe Rogan?

  It's only this one thing or nothing.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  I think the, you know, biological and manipulation and the AI, you know, development's gonna be, it's, I think it's going to produce a hybrid.

• 1:01:47Joe Rogan?

  100%. I think so too. I think that's the only way we live. I think we have to like, accept the fact that they're here.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:54Joe Rogan?

  And join them. Because I think as biological meat vehicles, we're just too limited. Our evolution's too slow. You know, it's like, we're like, if you decided to run your entire business on a laptop from 1995. Like, it's too slow. You can't do that anymore. Like, you have to catch up. If you want to be a part of this world today, and that's not that long, 1995 is 29 years ago, which is crazy. It's not that long ago. That laptop's useless.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so in what kind of ways has AI impacted you? It hasn't impacted you. Yeah, it hasn't impacted you.

• 1:02:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, it has in visually, I've seen a lot of like, really wild things online. Um, there's a bunch of, um, like, there's one that I posted that some guy made. It's, uh, Donald Trump playing Creedence Clearwater Revival on a guitar.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Joe Rogan?

  Pull it off on my Instagram. You should see this and, and Kamala Harris is in it and, and, um, uh, Macron from, or Justin Trudeau's in it, but it's, it's so realistic. I mean, it's obviously not like you look at it like, I know it's not really them, but it's so close. It's weird.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Do you like Creedence?

• 1:02:59Joe Rogan?

  Love Creedence. Yeah. I love Creedence. And, uh, it's, uh, Fortunate Son. So it's a banger song.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That's a great song.

• 1:03:11Joe Rogan?

  It's Donald Trump. You see Donald Trump playing guitar.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  I ain't no senator's son.

• 1:03:17Joe Rogan?

  Uh, it's pretty recent. Scroll down. Um, keep going. There it is. Give me some volume. Look at Putin's on the drums. Kamala Harris is wearing a witch hat. Look at that guy. Come on, man. Give me volume. Oh, we can't?

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Boris Johnson.

• 1:03:38Joe Rogan?

  We get in trouble with, uh, the YouTube police. Look at that. Kim Jong-un, Biden. This is crazy. Look how good this is, though.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:46Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it's not quite good enough where you can't tell that it's AI-generated, but it's unbelievably close.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Joe Rogan?

  Obama's the Joker. How bizarre.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Joe Rogan?

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• 1:04:41Joe Rogan?

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• 1:05:26Joe Rogan?

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• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is hilarious. It's scary, though.

• 1:05:46Joe Rogan?

  It is. And Jamie was just talking about Sora, that there's a new version of Sora that was released. Was it today?

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm waiting for it to show up on my account, but yeah, everybody who's got open AI can use Sora.

• 1:05:58Joe Rogan?

  Sora is, S O R A, is a new video generator through AI. So you put in prompts. So show him the Japanese one.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  I'm gonna show off.

• 1:06:09Joe Rogan?

  So this Jap- or was there new stuff?

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  There's all sorts of stuff, yeah.

• 1:06:13Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So the Japanese one was incredible. So it's like, show me a street in Japan where the snow is falling. And, you know, like a drone shot from overhead. So you see these people, and it looks entirely like a real scene.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  All right, yeah, so this is a nine-

• 1:06:28Joe Rogan?

  It looks absolutely like someone's filming.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  This is nine months old, so this is just older stuff, but this is like a prompt for puppies in snow.

• 1:06:33Joe Rogan?

  Look at this.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Who doesn't like puppies?

• 1:06:37Joe Rogan?

  Who doesn't like puppies? But that's fake. This is what's crazy. Like, this is all generated by AI. And it's pretty indistinguishable.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Joe Rogan?

  I mean, look at this. This is all AI.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  Nuts.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Good thing I'm not on drugs.

• 1:06:52Joe Rogan?

  I know. You'd be like, what? Look at this. This is AI.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, incredible.

• 1:06:57Joe Rogan?

  That's insane. This is waves hitting the rocks.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Joe Rogan?

  A movie trailer.

• 1:07:04Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, actors are fucked. Like, they're in real trouble. Cause you can make movies like this now.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Well, so are writers.

• 1:07:12Joe Rogan?

  Writers are fucked, yeah. I don't think writers are as fucked as actors are, though. Cause some writers, like, you know, there's the Quentin Tarantino's of the world that are just gonna take turns because of just his own psychology that you're not gonna take. You know, like, or Stephen King when he was younger. Like, I don't think you're ever gonna be able to write Carrie on a, on a computer. You know, I think, like, you need the human experience for some stuff that's creative, but not for the video.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it touches upon creativity. Like, is creativity the difference between AI and humans?

• 1:07:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe it's not, and that's what's really scary, cause we like to think that's the one thing that we have above AI, is we're creative. Well, that, yeah, great, get it to write a Beatles song. What if it writes a way better Beatles song than the Beatles could ever write? You know, what if it knows what's really gonna move you? You know, what if it writes, writes a Sheryl Crow song that makes you cry? You know? Then you're fucked.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:10Joe Rogan?

  Then it's Ex Machina. Then it knows, did you ever see Ex Machina?

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was pretty great.

• 1:08:16Joe Rogan?

  It's one of our top ten all-time favorite movies, cause it's, it so rang true. Like, there was not a moment in that movie where I was like, bullshit, get out of here. It's so rang true, that that thing, that they would be able to manipulate you super easily, especially if you're a young man, and you're, you know, awkward with women, and it's this perfect woman that just happens to be a robot. Like, who cares if she's a robot?

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's funny. Uh, the version of The Thing by John Carpenter is my, was one of my favorite movies.

• 1:08:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that was great, yeah.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're both body horror in a way.

• 1:08:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, sorta, right?

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, you know, they're a robot.

• 1:08:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Isn't human. You know, that's horrible.

• 1:08:57Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's pretending to be, though, and it's tricking you, just like The Thing.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Just like The Thing did, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the John Carpenter one is awesome.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like I've watched that twice and both times I regretted it because every time I closed my eyes, there would be visions of these, these like mutations happening.

• 1:09:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and that was another one that was up in the freezing cold.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Joe Rogan?

  Trapped up there. There was a new one of that they did in the, I think the early two thousands. It was pretty good.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was the prequel apparently, yeah.

• 1:09:27Joe Rogan?

  Was it?

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, they used a lot of CGI rather than practical effects like the Carpenter version did.

• 1:09:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, right. Which makes it, for whatever reason, not the uncanny valley, you don't really think it's happening.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Joe Rogan?

  Seems kind of fake.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Joe Rogan?

  When they use the visual effects, like I've had Rick Baker on the podcast.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Wow.

• 1:09:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and, uh, you know, uh, like things like the American Werewolf in London, he used like a real physical thing and it looks like a physical thing. This, this, you know, robot or whatever it is, it bites a person. This thing that he's pushing towards you. It looks real and can, you only see it for a brief second, but your brain registers, that's a physical thing. Whereas if you see the video, your brain registers, well, that looks cool, but I don't think it's really there.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a visual effect. It's not a, you know, a, a, a practical effect.

• 1:10:18Joe Rogan?

  Right, exactly. And you have to, there's a suspension of disbelief, right? Like, uh, do you ever see I Am Legend? It's a good example of it.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Joe Rogan?

  I Am Legend was cool, but it was like two thousand what? When was that? When was I Am Legend? Two thousand four?

• 1:10:38Joe Rogan?

  Is that about right? Seven? Okay. Back then they weren't that good. So there's a scene where the lions are in the park, like in the streets.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  Like they have lions out there because the civilization's collapsed.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  I've seen that scene, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:52Joe Rogan?

  It looks so fake.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Um, can you see like an intersection between AI and psychedelics? Like, you know, could you give, uh, you know, could you give a robot LSD? Or, you know, something like it?

• 1:11:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, no, what I was gonna say is I think AI can give you some, and McKenna actually talked about this as well. That he believed that with virtual reality and computer simulations of trips, it will get to a point of sophistication where you can visually simulate exactly what a psychedelic trip is. You know, and then there becomes this real possibility within our lifetime of recording dreams. Now, if you can record a dream, can you record a psychedelic state?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:11:40Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, why not?

• 1:11:41Joe Rogan?

  Right, right. If they can, I mean, I don't know how far away they are. Let's say they're 50 years away from being able to do something like this. But if they can map out all of the synapse in your brain and all of the, the different neurochemistry that's going on. If they can map that out and then attach it to some sort of a, some ability to visually record what you're experiencing. And they can then have something like through a neural implant, like a Neuralink or something like that. And then completely put you in the exact state that this person is having when they're on nine grams of mushrooms.

• 1:12:24Joe Rogan?

  That, that totally seems like, if we can send video through the sky and it lands on your phone, it looks perfect. I think that's doable. I think that's doable within X amount of years. I mean, I, I, it's not a thing like cloning people through a printer. Like, that's too far away. But I think the, the idea of recording your thoughts and then figuring out what causes different reactions inside people's mind, how your visual cortex, uh, interplays with all these different chemicals that are going on inside of your brain.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it could be a mass telepathic experience. Like if everybody was, you know, sharing the same experience at the same time.

• 1:13:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I think that definitely. I think that definitely and definitely the possibility of a completely universal language. Especially if we can enhance our brains. So if...

• 1:13:21Joe Rogan?

  What they're talking about with Neuralink is, you know, multiple steps of of use, right? Multiple steps of

• 1:13:33Joe Rogan?

  the way they're going to have this. First, they're gonna use it for people that are disabled. Like, we had the guy in here was the very first Neuralink patient.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Oh, very cool.

• 1:13:43Joe Rogan?

  It was very cool. He plays video games and he's like, his eyes are like an aimbot. So wherever he looks at it, shoots. Cause like, he can, he can move his eye, instead of hand-eye coordination. It's just eye coordination. So he knows exactly, so it's like instantaneous visuals on things. So he's like, really good at video games with this. And that's better than not having that. So he plays better with the Neuralink than a person like myself would with just hand-eye coordination.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:12Joe Rogan?

  So you would imagine that if he can do that better, the next thing it's gonna be able to do is restore vision. And if they can restore vision and then they can create artificial eyes, you can have things like night vision, you can have thermal imagery. You're gonna be able to do things with your eyes that a biological eye can't do. And we might get to the point within, you know, our lifetime or our grandchildren's lifetime, where people get rid of their eyes really quick, cause your eyes are bullshit. Your eyes don't even see through walls. Like, what are you, these stupid fucking biological eyes?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:45Joe Rogan?

  And then the next thing you know, you've got something that enhances your brain and gives you a complete access to the internet instantaneously. Just through the mind. Just through this implant and through the mind. And then everybody gets together and says, "Listen, I would like to learn Swahili, I'd like to learn Portuguese and Chinese." I don't have the time. No one has the time to learn 190 languages, or whatever there are out there. Why don't we all just create one universal language?

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Would you think people would want that?

• 1:15:18Joe Rogan?

  I don't think leaders would want that.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it would lead to, you know, everybody talking with everybody else.

• 1:15:24Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh. I don't think Russia would be down with that. They'd probably censor it.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Well, there was a time, you know, back in, you know, the, you know, the Tower of Babel. Everybody spoke one language, one tongue. Yeah, and you look what they did. They just built a big tower. And your God looked down and said, you know, they have one language and one tongue and look at what they do.

• 1:15:44Joe Rogan?

  Do you, what do you think, like, when you think of biblical stories, what do, I mean, I've, I've spent far too much time speculating about the origins. But I'd like to know, like, what do you think that was?

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Well, I think the stories could be seen as if they were real. You know, kind of like the DMT world. At a certain point, I had to look at the DMT world as if it were real. Otherwise, I would suggest it was, you know, something else. It was psychoanalytic, psychodynamic stuff. It was Jungian archetypes. It was your brain on drugs. But if I took as an act of faith that it was a real world, I treated it as if it were real. And, you know, that's the way I approached the Bible, the Bible stories, as if they were real.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Like, if, if, if you read it carefully, it's a very coherent, you know, picture of creation, of history, of the relationship between the spiritual and human worlds. And if you just enter it rather than interpret it as, you know, something else, then it starts opening up in, in a way that is quite interesting. Like, for example, the flood, or, well, you know, for example, you know, the Tower of Babel.

• 1:17:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  You know, like, if you look at the preceding chapters, after the flood, you know, God told man to spread out, you know, to populate the world. Because it was just Noah and his family after the flood. And then they had children and, you know, the, you know, the directive was to, was, was to repopulate the earth.

• 1:17:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  And instead, you know, they built this tower. Um, you know, so, you know, people kind of wonder, you know, why was the generation of the Tower, you know, punished, as it were, by being dispersed and their languages were confused. Um, but, um, yeah, you know, so it's a, it's a cohesive, it's a cohesive whole. You know, the stories, you know, build upon each other. Uh, you know, there's history, uh, certain things occurred because of the behavior of certain people, certain ideas, certain practices. Yeah, you know, so it isn't as if it were, you know, something else other than what you're reading. And that makes it important to understand the language it's written in, you know, which is Hebrew.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  You know, so if you really want to understand at least the Hebrew Bible, what some call the Old Testament, you really need, um, to know the Hebrew language because you can make the translation for yourself.

• 1:18:21Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Um, you know, they say all translation is interpretation.

• 1:18:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  You know, so if you know the language directly, you can then make your own interpretation.

• 1:18:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, ancient Hebrew would be the most fascinating one to read it in.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  It's incredible.

• 1:18:36Joe Rogan?

  If you could understand it.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:38Joe Rogan?

  Do you read it?

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I re-taught myself Biblical Hebrew.

• 1:18:41Joe Rogan?

  Wow. How long did that take?

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know, sixteen years, maybe.

• 1:18:46Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  Well, you have these big old dictionaries, right? You know, these concordances, um, yeah, and each of the words has a three-letter root.

• 1:18:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, uh, you know, just depending on context, they can mean a lot of different things.

• 1:19:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  And every time they appear for the first time, I would, you know, scribble in the margin of the text, you know, what this means.

• 1:19:11Joe Rogan?

  So you self-taught?

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, as, as a kid, I took, I went to Hebrew school a few hours every week, and I learned conversational Hebrew and modern Hebrew.

• 1:19:23Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  You know, so that gave me a leg up when I started learning Biblical Hebrew.

• 1:19:27Joe Rogan?

  How different is Biblical Hebrew from conversational Hebrew?

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Uh, very different. They're really Byzantine word forms and grammar and, uh, words that appear once and never again, uh, in, you know, the Biblical version of Hebrew.

• 1:19:43Joe Rogan?

  Once?

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Right, one word appears, one, uh, you know, once in the whole, uh, you know, twenty-two books of text.

• 1:19:52Joe Rogan?

  What's the word?

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Oh, well, there's a number of those words.

• 1:19:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, they're called, they're called hapaxes.

• 1:19:59Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  H A P A X. Yeah, they appear only one time in the text. They have to figure out what, what that means.

• 1:20:05Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. Can you guess because of context?

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you can guess because of context. You can also, you can guess because of neighboring languages. Um, like Hittite, or Akkadian, or Phoenician, or Sumerian.

• 1:20:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so it's an amazing language. I love the Hebrew language. That's one of the things that really got me hooked. It's very, you know, it's extremely rational, but it's really telegraphic, too. You could write one word that may encapsulate the meaning of six or eight words. You could put together a biblical Hebrew word, for example, that might say, "I found," let's see, boy, I'd really have to think that through, but you can, you can combine a lot of ideas in one single word. You know, that's, you know, the gist of it.

• 1:21:00Joe Rogan?

  So, when we're thinking about the world and we're using words, we're confined by the way the English language interprets the world.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, and that's one of the things I loved learning about biblical Hebrew is, you know, the grammatical forms open a window to parts of reality that just are ignored all of the time. You know, there's a notion of the reflexive tense, uh, which means, uh, you're doing something to yourself. So, for example, you might say, "I sat down," or "I sat myself down," and "I sat myself down" is, you know, the reflexive. And "I sat down" is what's, you know, called the perfect. Yeah, you know, so the convolutions of grammar really open windows to, you know, views of, you know, relationships, uh, that were invisible before.

• 1:21:55Joe Rogan?

  And if you're using this and you're reading these ancient, ancient stories and trying to interpret them.

• 1:22:04Joe Rogan?

  And then trying to break it down into English or Greek or Latin, whatever they did.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Uh, the first translation was, um, Greek and after that Latin.

• 1:22:16Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever done any reading of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  You know, I haven't really, um, I've read about them, but I haven't read any of the scrolls themselves. You know, one of my longstanding, uh, projects is a translation and commentary on Genesis. Uh, Big Genesis is 1,200 pages so far.

• 1:22:35Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm not sure how I'm going to ever get, you know, that, you know, published, but I think if I, you know, could condense it to, you know, something more manageable, it would be an interesting read for people.

• 1:22:46Joe Rogan?

  So what are you doing with it? What are you doing with this? Like, when, when you set out, what was your goal?

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  Well, it was an expedient kind of reaction. I was scribbling notes into the margins of my copy of, um, of the Book of Genesis, and there was just no more room.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  So I said, I gotta put this into a Word file. Yeah, so I'm gonna put it into a Word file and it was pretty big. Yeah, so I'm still working through, well, there's all these commentaries to the text. You can't, you know, know the score without a score,

• 1:23:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  You know, without a program. Yeah, you know, so there's a lot of, uh, very interesting and intelligent, you know, commentators. So those would be a lot of the notes that I would write down and I was compiling all of these interesting perspectives on the text.

• 1:23:33Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Um, so are you reading it in ancient Hebrew?

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm both, um, doing my own translation and, you know, collating, you know, the commentaries from 20 or, you know, 30 different, uh, you know, commentators.

• 1:23:52Joe Rogan?

  So when you're doing your own translating, are you comparing it to other translations and seeing how other people interpreted it?

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Um, you know, mostly other Jewish translations.

• 1:24:04Joe Rogan?

  Are there, but there, are there a lot of straight from ancient Hebrew to English? Or is it a lot of like to Greek and then to Latin and then to England? Like, how, how are they usually done?

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:24:16Joe Rogan?

  Or how were they originally done?

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Well, the first translation was to Aramaic. And then to Greek, and then I think to either Arabic or to Latin.

• 1:24:27Joe Rogan?

  So the first translation was the Dead Sea Scrolls as far as we know?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Well, the translation of the Bible itself, you know, the five books, the first five books, and then the intervening seventeen, the prophets and whatnot. You know, those were, you know, translated into, you know, different languages, you know, book to book. You know, the Dead Sea Scrolls are both, you know, books of the Bible with slight modifications or completely independent, you know, kinds of texts.

• 1:24:57Joe Rogan?

  How many of them are books of the Bible? How many of the stories?

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  I think Isaiah was found in the Dead Sea caves, maybe some Ezekiel, maybe some Leviticus, you know, like a number, you know, but not the whole.

• 1:25:11Joe Rogan?

  Was Ezekiel the same as it was in the Old Testament?

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Mostly, mostly. There are modifications, though, with, you know, the Dead Sea translations, you know, versus the ones we read today.

• 1:25:20Joe Rogan?

  Ezekiel's the wildest one.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  Ezekiel really got me hooked on the whole DMT endogenous spiritual experience kind of motif. Yeah, the visions of Ezekiel, chapter one.

• 1:25:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  I mean, there's, you know, there's this, you know, roaring sound and he falls down and angel picks him up and there's like, you know, blue ice above and a roaring sound.

• 1:25:44Joe Rogan?

  And a wheel within a wheel.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  The wheels and the angels with the wings and the ice on their wings. It's completely DMT-like.

• 1:25:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was really impressed with the overlap of the two sets of experiences.

• 1:25:58Joe Rogan?

  The UFO community latches on to Ezekiel as well.

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:02Joe Rogan?

  You know, the depictions. I was, I saw an image today, I should have, should have saved it and sent it to Jamie, but it was angels, it was a visual interpretation, like a drawing of angels as described in the Bible. And these angels look like flying crafts. They look like flying geometric patterns.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  I'm trying to remember, is it a German guy, I think, who was really into

• 1:26:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this, that's not what I saw today, but it was something like that. It was something like that. That was what it was, Jamie.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:41Joe Rogan?

  That's exactly what it was.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  With the gyroscope?

• 1:26:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Like, this is angels as described in the Bible.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have the four, you have the four faces, a lion, a bear, a man, and an eagle.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Who is that drawing by?

• 1:27:04Joe Rogan?

  The chariot vision of Ezekiel.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  Van Daniken or something?

• 1:27:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Eric Von Daniken, that guy?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 1:27:10Joe Rogan?

  Is it that? No. No. That can't be it. I think that that's just an old art piece.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Ophaneem.

• 1:27:20Joe Rogan?

  See, go, go to the Wikipedia again, Jamie, so we can get the description.

• 1:27:23Speaker 02

  It didn't have anything. It just said it was a typical, traditional depiction.

• 1:27:27Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Okay. So it doesn't say who?

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a woodcutting of some sort.

• 1:27:32Joe Rogan?

  Kind of how it was described. It's, the Von Daniken thing is fascinating. I had lunch with him once.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Where?

• 1:27:39Joe Rogan?

  Um, Peter Thiel's house.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 1:27:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So Eric Weinstein said, hey, we'd like you to come to this lunch. We're gonna do with Eric Von Daniken. You know a lot about that guy's stuff. I'm like, oh, I know everything about that guy's stuff. Like, I've seen Chariots of the Gods, like, fucking 10 times. I've watched 100 interviews of this guy. It's very, he's like, all in on the idea that UFOs created all this stuff, and they're all flying spacemen, and...

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  Well, who created the UFOs?

• 1:28:07Joe Rogan?

  That's a real good question. He doesn't have that information.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the first question I would ask him.

• 1:28:12Joe Rogan?

  But it's, you know, it's, he's, he's a very nice guy. I don't want to say anything bad about him, and I really enjoyed Chariots of the Gods. It's a fun movie. It's like, have you ever seen it?

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 1:28:25Joe Rogan?

  It's wonderful. It's from like 1976. It played in the movie theaters.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  I remember when it came out.

• 1:28:30Joe Rogan?

  What year is Chariots of the Gods? It's pretty old. But in it, you know, he's all in on everything being evidence that UFOs were here, and a lot of like, real sketchy connections, in my opinion. I'm more inclined to go the Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson route. I think there was a very sophisticated civilization that existed, like, yeah, what year? Seventy, damn! Uh, but we saw it in the movie theater when I was a little kid.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:00Joe Rogan?

  But, um, I think that

• 1:29:05Joe Rogan?

  it's, there's real evidence that there was a sophisticated civilization, that the Egyptian pyramids are enough. It's just like, whatever the hell was going on there, that was an insanely sophisticated civilization that existed four thousand five hundred years ago, at least.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:20Joe Rogan?

  And probably went back quite a bit further than that. You know, according to their hieroglyphs, it went back thirty thousand years, you know?

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:26Joe Rogan?

  And whatever was going on there was pretty incredible. And I think to just say that the aliens did it, it seems a little, a little silly because there's no evidence that the aliens did it. There's evidence that there was people around back then.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a case of Occam's razor. You know, the most sensible explanation is probably the most likely.

• 1:29:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but then, there's also so many stories of us being visited in almost every ancient culture.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  Well, you know, is that like being visited or just the experience of being visited?

• 1:30:02Joe Rogan?

  Are they the same thing?

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Well, one would be, you know, physically manifest and the other would just be manifest in, in the mind.

• 1:30:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think a lot of people are starting to lean in this general direction of that, of that perhaps we're trying to measure something that cannot be measured. Perhaps we're trying to like put something on a scale that does not necessarily physically exist, but also has the attributes of something that physically exists. Or they can manifest something that physically exists, but what, it's, it's kind of an illusion.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:41Joe Rogan?

  And the whole thing is kind of going on simultaneously, interdimensionally. And that this is why we struggle with our definitions and our, just our overall acceptance of even the possibility of it being real. I mean, people I think most people, when you talk to them about UFOs, if they don't have any skin in the game, they'll tell you they believe in UFOs, they'll tell you, we think, they think we've been visited, because it's fun. But if you said to them, if you had to bet everything you have, everything you have, on the government has recovered crashed UFOs, and that they visit us, and they come from, you know, the Palladi Star system,

• 1:31:24Joe Rogan?

  and, and they've been here from the beginning of time, or there's weird conscious experiences, weird, weird doors, portals of consciousness that open up, that allow you to see things that might not necessarily be physically measurable, but also real. And that these things are what everybody's talking about in these ancient religious stories. These things are things that people are talking about when they claim they've been abducted by UFOs, then something landed, and, and even like the physical remnants of these crafts.

• 1:32:03Joe Rogan?

  That might, all of it might be just a part of this very bizarre psychic experiment that's going on. That as the mind expands its ability to understand other realms, and as the, like, you have to think of, you don't have to, but the way I think of it is like, we didn't used to be able to see, so it was an emerging trait of single-celled organisms, no sight. If you believe in evolution, it goes to multi-celled organisms, eventually goes to sight. So it's an emerging part of being a living thing that you can see. Then language, we didn't used to be able to talk, now we talk freely. So there was an emerging thing, an ability that human beings had.

• 1:32:48Joe Rogan?

  And I think consciousness, psychic ability, precognition, remote viewing, all this stuff, for most people, that's a nonsense thought. But I think the thought is so prevalent in so many different cultures. Psychic phenomena is discussed ubiquitously in every corner of the world.

• 1:33:13Joe Rogan?

  And I think it's probably an emerging part of being a human being.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Well, do you think it's biologically based? It would need to be if it were, you know, universal like that.

• 1:33:26Joe Rogan?

  Chemically based, biologically based? I'm sure it probably has a lot to do with the diet of the creatures, right? I mean, if humans are consistently, if they're in the Amazon, you're consistently taking ayahuasca and eating mushrooms and having rituals, you're probably in that realm more often than a regular person who eats McDonald's and drinks coffee at Starbucks and is stressed out because they work all day and is on SSRIs, you're probably not getting much of that at all.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  There's a lot of telepathy, I think, that occurs in those kinds of cultures. You know, they share dreams and they share visions, very interesting.

• 1:34:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know that that's what they tried to initially call harmine when they discovered it, they tried to call it telepathine.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Telepathine, exactly, right, right.

• 1:34:08Joe Rogan?

  But it already existed under the definition, under the nomenclature, they called it harmine, so they had to like, go, okay, well, it's already named, too bad, it's cool to call it telepathine.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Uh, right, it was synthesized by somebody and got that name, yeah.

• 1:34:22Joe Rogan?

  But the people that were experiencing it then, when they wanted to name it telepathine, they wanted to name it that because they were experiencing telepathic.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:31Joe Rogan?

  They were having these weird experiences where they were sharing moments.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Shared visions.

• 1:34:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Well, I think you can share visions, just like you can share thoughts, you know, you can, or you share feelings, I think, just a little.

• 1:34:43Joe Rogan?

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• 1:35:34Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:13Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  More complex.

• 1:36:53Joe Rogan?

  The thing about that is if it's local and there's other communication, right? If you're both in the same room and like your friend says, "Not the pyramid." Like, "Oh, I see the pyramid now." You know? You know what I mean? Or if you guys are nowhere near each other, you can't hear each other, and then you independently write down what you experienced and then that person says, and they have the exact same thing. So they have no interaction with you before they write down what they experienced or recorded or what have you. But they're the same. They're having the same thing.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Do you know of Rupert Sheldrake's work?

• 1:37:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, I've had Rupert on.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  You have? Okay, great. Yeah, so he's spoken to you about his-

• 1:37:30Joe Rogan?

  Morphic residence.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  His morphic residence and these large scale experiments with a lot of people from the public. They see, they will make cold calls and people are expecting them. The dog knows it's going to come, the owner's going to come home much sooner or at a different time than-

• 1:37:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  And they can sense it and they're ready.

• 1:37:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  So there is, you know, like awareness at a distance, seems to be. Uh, but I, you know, I think it also must occur between people or things which have already got a strong relationship.

• 1:38:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like rats, when they teach them how to do a maze on the east coast, they figure out how to do it quicker on the west coast. You've seen those, right?

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and, you know, crystal formation. I was, you know, thinking about a dream I had once of my washing machine, uh, I was traveling, uh, and I had a dream about my washing machine that had stopped working. And I, you know, called home and I said, you know, how's the washer? And she said, it's broken. And I spoke to Rupert and I said, you know, can you explain that? And he said, you must have a strong relationship to your washing machine.

• 1:38:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know it.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:46Joe Rogan?

  Kind of makes sense.

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, cross species, you know, cross life forms almost, uh, you know, communication. Well, I mean, do you think things would work out if there were a universal language? Or, I mean, would we just, you know, build a tower of, you know, Babel all over again? Or would we like do something, you know, good, you know, for everyone?

• 1:39:08Joe Rogan?

  I think we have the potential now because we're, we're no, if, if we can develop a universal language, when you have real communication with people globally that's never existed before, instantaneous, real communication through devices that's never existed. So that's a different factor when you consider a, a universal language. So if you have real communication with people, then you have a universal language. And then here's the big one, the ability to detect deception. So if we really are all communicating through some sort of neural implant and we really

• 1:39:46Joe Rogan?

  are doing this telepathically with a, a universal language and we're experiencing each other's consciousness in a way that eliminates all possibility of deception, you could see envy, greed, anger, you could see these things in people's thoughts. If this becomes a possibility, and I think it's within the realm of science, I think it's within the realm of technological possibility, when that does happen.

• 1:40:18Joe Rogan?

  It will mean a very different thing to be a human being, and I think it could be one of the greatest things that's ever happened, because it would force us to only communicate at a higher level. You, you, there would be no benefit in bullshitting anymore. It would be the opposite. It would actually be detrimental. You would be ostracized. No one would want to communicate with you anymore.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  Well, you'd be speaking the truth all the time.

• 1:40:44Joe Rogan?

  All the time.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, all the time.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  There'd be no more lying.

• 1:40:47Joe Rogan?

  No more lying, impossible to lie, which I think is fascinating.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  I don't think that would work.

• 1:40:51Joe Rogan?

  Why not?

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there are some lies that are told for the sake of peace.

• 1:40:57Joe Rogan?

  Right, but what are the parameters? Like, what are the confines of our society and of our just geopolitically, you know, in terms of environments we exist in? Like, what, why? Why? What, what lies would be good for peace? They wouldn't be better if everybody just knew exactly what was going on?

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Well, if everybody knew exactly what was going on, that would be, you know, something different. But I think, you know, in the meantime, um, there are some, you know, some benefits, you know, to white lies.

• 1:41:30Joe Rogan?

  Sure, as a human being.

• 1:41:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:32Joe Rogan?

  With a limited ass, limited ability to communicate and, um, you know, you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Sure, yeah. But if you're not a human being anymore, essentially, you're a cyborg, and you're, you're connected through a neural link to the whole world, there's going to be zero benefit in lying.

• 1:41:50Speaker 01

  Right. Well, you're, you know, suggesting a new species of man.

• 1:41:54Joe Rogan?

  I am suggesting a new species of man.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, one of my, you know, favorite books is called First and Last Men. It's by Olaf Stapleton. He's a British science fiction writer from the nineteen thirties, nineteen forties.

• 1:42:08Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  And he describes nineteen species of man that extends over two billion years. And the final species is living on one of the outer planets. They live thirty-five thousand years, because that's how long, um, it takes, you know, to learn everything.

• 1:42:24Joe Rogan?

  [laughing]

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  And every so often, they all communicate telepathically around the whole globe. And it's like this big event, obviously. It happens every, whatever, twenty thousand years.

• 1:42:35Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they work up to it. Yeah, it's, it's an inspiring book, actually. It's one of my favorite.

• 1:42:41Joe Rogan?

  You know what, another more controversial thought that I have about all this stuff? Is that ultimately, the big bottleneck with information is gonna be money. Because money right now is just ones and zeros, right? Money is just information on, it's just, we agree that you have X amount of dollars here. And that's, we agree. You know, that's not a gold standard anymore, so it's not backed by anything, it's just a weird thing. So that's, that's information. The trend with technology is we have more and more access to information and ultimately we're gonna have instantaneous access to information.

• 1:43:26Joe Rogan?

  But then we have this money thing. We have money which is, and as people get better and better at cracking encoding, like you're, you're not gonna have encrypted money, you're not gonna have encrypted info, it's not gonna be possible, especially when quantum computing becomes ubiquitous, like we're all operating off, like, it's all done. And if this happens at the same time when we're all sharing our thoughts, impossible to lie, and then universal language and money, so then you have an even distribution of resources that's not based at all on capitalism.

• 1:44:07Joe Rogan?

  It's an abandonment of capitalism, not, but not in like a Marxist communist way, in sort of a practical utilitarian way to deal with the fact that everybody's communicating with everybody instantaneously. You can't have a guy who lives in a fucking castle and another guy who lives in a favela with a dirt floor and no food if we're all existing as one.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Well, it would require a change in human nature.

• 1:44:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, human nature won't be human nature once this happens. Whatever you think of human nature as of now, it's like, you can tell me something, I don't know if you're telling me the truth. I can kinda guess, I have a feeling, but I don't know. So that makes progress slow.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  Well, do you think that, you know, that the technology will change human nature?

• 1:44:50Joe Rogan?

  Of course. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, but just by design. If you, if you're communicating telepathically and you can instantaneously detect it, it makes deception impossible, right? Because you're only able to like, express your thoughts.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have a feeling that won't be very popular.

• 1:45:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, it won't be popular with the kind of humans that exist today.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Right, you know, so will the human nature have to change first before there is an agreement to undertake that?

• 1:45:19Joe Rogan?

  I think it'll change with it. Well, one of the good things is, we might be able to completely eliminate things like depression, suicidal thoughts, all mental illnesses. Maybe we could recognize that these are simply patterns in the way this thing operates. And if you just optimize it, it no longer has these patterns. If everybody has like this increased level of dopamine.

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  For example?

• 1:45:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:45Joe Rogan?

  Like, everybody, just increased dopamine 300%.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Well, and increased oxytocin.

• 1:45:49Joe Rogan?

  Yes, everybody loves everybody.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  Everybody loves everybody.

• 1:45:52Joe Rogan?

  We're walking around in a state of tripping. We're all in ecstasy together. It's a low level where you're functional, you're not gonna crash your car.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:45:59Joe Rogan?

  But you probably won't have cars anymore, anyway. They'll be driving you around.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Well, an interesting, you know, thought is, you know, maybe you can increase levels of endogenous DMT in everyone genetically.

• 1:46:10Joe Rogan?

  Sure, or on cue, like, whenever you'd want it.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, the rapture may have a biological, you know, basis in that regard. Like, it's a timed event.

• 1:46:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  Which is worldwide, that turns on the DMT synthesizing machinery, and everybody just...

• 1:46:29Joe Rogan?

  Connects all the minds together, in a universal language.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  And it's one big blowout.

• 1:46:34Joe Rogan?

  And we emerge from our violent monkey past and become the next version of what it means to be a human being.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  Well, which would be non-material. You know, the DMT world is non-material.

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  It's visual. So, I mean, we might just transcend into some, like, I think everybody, you know, in this kind of scenario, everybody would drop dead.

• 1:46:57Joe Rogan?

  But isn't it more than visual? It's visual in the sense that you experience it with your eyes, but your brain is experiencing something too, you just don't know what to do with it. You don't know where it goes. So you say it's visual, I'm seeing it. But you're not just seeing it, you're experiencing it.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's a world made of light. I think that's, you know, the way, and, you know, and we perceive light through the eyes. It's visually, you know, experienced.

• 1:47:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, but whenever you're having a visual with your eyes closed, it's tough to call it a visual. I mean, obviously, it's interacting with that part of your brain.

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Right. Well, you call it that after the fact. After you come down, you know, when you're drinking your Coke.

• 1:47:37Joe Rogan?

  But have you ever opened your eyes on DMT? There was this video I was watching the other day online where these people, they, they put them on DMT, and then they had lasers.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  The, the red laser effect.

• 1:47:50Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Tell me about that.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just found out about it a couple of days ago.

• 1:47:55Joe Rogan?

  You? You just found out about it? That's crazy. Cause I just found out about it a couple of days ago.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, yeah, a friend is putting together a piece on that phenomenon, and he wanted my opinion.

• 1:48:08Joe Rogan?

  Could you explain it to people, what they're experiencing?

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  Well, I think what happens, and, you know, this is just a very cursory assessment of the, of the project, but, you know, people smoke DMT, and then they project this white, or this, um, this, um, they project a red laser onto the wall. And if you look very carefully at it, from what I understand, you can see the matrix.

• 1:48:37Joe Rogan?

  You see code in a laser?

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Can we take a bit of a break?

• 1:48:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:45Joe Rogan?

  We'll take a bit of a break, ladies and gentlemen, we'll be right back. It's not that he doesn't have faults, he most certainly has faults, but they all have faults. It's just they had control of the media, and they turned him into something that he wasn't just ten years ago to them. Very strange how it was done.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:00Joe Rogan?

  You know, and we all were a victim of it, everybody, like, you don't wanna admit that he has any positive qualities, or you get labeled a Nazi.

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and why do you think that happened?

• 1:49:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, because he is an outsider and he is someone who did not come through the political system, so doesn't have all these relationships and all of these intertwined conflicts with corporations and all these different businesses that have paid for his campaign, the campaign's self-financed, and then you have someone who didn't play the game to get in there. And you can't have that, you can't have that. If you have that, and this guy doesn't want wars, he doesn't want us giving money to foreign companies and foreign countries and propping up dictators, we can't have that. We need that. That's part of the American machine. That's how it all works.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  The military-industrial complex.

• 1:49:53Joe Rogan?

  It's real.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been real for a long time.

• 1:49:55Joe Rogan?

  I mean, when Eisenhower talked about it on television at the end of his term, it's kind of a crazy moment in history that was just broadcast on television and wasn't really revisited until YouTube came around.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  It was ignored.

• 1:50:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, you know, conveniently ignored.

• 1:50:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think with RFK Junior, when he gets in, we have a real possibility of opening up psychedelic treatment for veterans, which I think is the best way to start it off because they're the most deserving of it. They're the people we ask of the most, and there's been a lot of people that have had some pretty profound changes take place because of psychedelic experiences.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  I think it's going to need to be scaled up.

• 1:50:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  And what that scaling up looks like still isn't really worked out.

• 1:50:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  I think they should develop special clinics, you know, where you wouldn't actually be doing research and you wouldn't need incredibly strong data to justify that kind of treatment. You would just need an indication that it was helpful.

• 1:51:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  And have specialized therapists, pure drug. It wouldn't be scheduled one kind of, you know, super restrictive research, but it wouldn't be just Wild West, any, and anything goes. I think there needs to be some kind of middle. Institutional development where, you know, a lot of people can go who would benefit from psychedelic assisted therapy. And, you know, the vets make sense. You know, so many homeless people, um, are veterans. Like in Albuquerque, there's an enormous homeless population. A large number of them are vets. They're really not treated all that well when they get home.

• 1:51:44Joe Rogan?

  No, no, they're not. And it's not like this idea of not having robust clinical research to show efficacy, like, on a physiological level, that doesn't really exist with SSRIs anyway. And they're already prescribing them. Like, there's so much anecdotal story, so many of them, of guys going to Mexico, taking Ibogaine, taking DMT, psilocybin experiences, and coming back and just, like, sorted their life out.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  It's amazing. A couple of weeks ago, we were at a conference up in Denver, and I was, you know, doing some, you know, book signing. Some guy, my generation, came up to me, and he, you know, told a story after he returned from Vietnam. He was using basically every drug, in a bad way, bad drugs in a bad way, and he smoked DMT one day, stopped using everything. He even moved to live across the street from a liquor store to be able to, you know, demonstrate that he had that willpower that had just changed with one DMT experience to resist any future drinking.

• 1:52:51Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so those kinds of stories, you just can't ignore.

• 1:52:55Joe Rogan?

  You, there's too many of them. And I've, I know, I have personal friends that have gone through it and changed their life, quit drinking, got their shit together, became a much nicer person. Like, sometimes people are just burdened by the stress of what they've experienced, especially war, which is the most horrific thing that people can experience. You're burdened by this. And sometimes, they don't know how to shut those demons off. They don't know how to shut it off. And something can come along, whether it's a DMT experience, ayahuasca, Ibogaine, there's a bunch of different anecdotal stories that I've heard of different things. I, I was reading something about Colorado today.

• 1:53:35Joe Rogan?

  Colorado is doing some new psilocybin research thing, where they're, they're opening up clinics now?

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. They're gonna be opening up these healing clinics, which will be more or less, you know, based on the Oregon model. You license the therapists, you, you know, have to account for your supply of drugs and you know, quality control, those kinds of things.

• 1:53:59Joe Rogan?

  I would worry about that, like, we're talking about like, control and that's where you would open up the door to potential spiritual narcissism. Like, you could see someone starting a nice cult that way.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:54:13Joe Rogan?

  He controls the mushrooms.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Who controls the mushrooms, well, you know, it wouldn't be the first time that psychedelic, you know, cults, you know, emerged, yeah. Well, do you, are you familiar with, you know, the Rajneesh story?

• 1:54:28Joe Rogan?

  Um, which one's that?

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  Uh, in, in Antelope, Oregon, there was this.

• 1:54:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, Wild Wild Country.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  Wild Wild Country.

• 1:54:36Joe Rogan?

  I love that one.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:38Joe Rogan?

  That's Osho.

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  That's, that's Osho, Osho.

• 1:54:41Joe Rogan?

  Osho.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:43Joe Rogan?

  Osho or Osho?

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  I think Osho.

• 1:54:46Joe Rogan?

  You got me confused. I said, Osho, which one? Osho? Show, Osho. He's my favorite. He's, "But the people..."

• 1:54:52Speaker 01

  Bhagwan.

• 1:54:53Joe Rogan?

  "...are retarded."

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:55Joe Rogan?

  That's that guy.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that guy.

• 1:54:57Joe Rogan?

  Osho. I read his book, um, cause I watched Wild Wild Country, I was so blown away by it, that I read his book, and it's actually like, very interesting. I mean, I think he's written more than one book, I forget which one I have, but I read it a few years back, and I was like, this is a fascinating person, like, he doesn't seem like a cult leader.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Um, what's the main message that he's trying to get across?

• 1:55:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's just sort of like, a guidebook for life, like, see, pull up his books, I'll tell you which one it was.

• 1:55:24Speaker 02

  The Book of Secrets? He's got a Zen Tarot.

• 1:55:29Joe Rogan?

  Can you show me what they look like, so I can see the covers?

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  He's got a bunch of books.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  One would always wonder if...

• 1:55:37Joe Rogan?

  It's one of the few books I have that's a physical copy, too, I'd have to go back and look at it.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you kind of wonder if these are transcriptions of his talks, or things that other people helped him write, or even things that other people wrote for him.

• 1:55:50Joe Rogan?

  For the people.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  Isar B. the Buddha.

• 1:55:52Joe Rogan?

  By the people.

• 1:55:56Joe Rogan?

  Um, they did a dirty thing there where they took all those homeless people and they brought them to the, so they could count as voters and then they kicked them out.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, weren't they trying to poison the city council or something?

• 1:56:08Joe Rogan?

  They poisoned everybody. They, yeah, they, they poisoned people when they were trying to take over politically, but that was that one woman. What was her name? Rita? Was that her name? The one woman who got in trouble. She, she was kind of running the cult.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  Ah, right, right.

• 1:56:24Joe Rogan?

  She was pretty brutal.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I spent, uh, uh, you know, some time at a Zen monastery. I was actually as a young man thinking of becoming a monk.

• 1:56:35Joe Rogan?

  How long did you spend there?

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Not that long because my depression lifted while I was there. I think my motivation to become a monk was because of how depressed I was. I didn't think I was able to really function any other way than, you know, than in a cloister, more or less.

• 1:56:49Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then my depression cleared and I went back to school. Yeah, but I stayed associated with them for over twenty years when I went up there.

• 1:56:58Joe Rogan?

  What do you attribute your depression lifting to?

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Well, it was, I, I think it was a minor enlightenment experience. That's not, you know, to say that I'm enlightened or anything, but you know, but if you look at, you know, the phenomenology of the enlightenment experience, it's on a scale. You know, there's gradations like the major one and then, you know, smaller little ones.

• 1:57:20Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was walking back from a work, uh, assignment. Uh, I, they were asking, well, um, one thing they liked, you know, doing was because I was a medical student back there, uh, back then, you know, thought I was hot shit. I was always given the worst assignments, you know, the worst work assignments, like, you know, clean the toilets or, you know, knock down this hill, you know. So one day they said, you know, can you move that hill? So I had my shovel and my pickaxe, twenty-two years old or whatnot. Yeah, and I was, you know, coming back from the work project and my depression just lifted right off my shoulders. It was, it was the damnedest thing. It was about fifteen, you know, thirty seconds or

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  so. I thought, oh, that's pretty interesting. Yeah, and the end of the day came and I woke up the next morning and I was still feeling pretty good. And, yeah, you know, so I was indebted to them for helping pull me out of that bad mood. It was a bad mood, too. I had to drop out of school.

• 1:58:21Joe Rogan?

  Was it directly after you had to move the hill?

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  It was on the way back to the tool shed.

• 1:58:26Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:28Joe Rogan?

  Did you do anything before that physically?

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, I don't remember what my other work assignment was. It was an afternoon work assignment, as I remember.

• 1:58:41Joe Rogan?

  I mean, in your life, did you ever do any hard labor?

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:58:44Joe Rogan?

  Ever work out? Ever take a sport?

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I ran track.

• 1:58:48Joe Rogan?

  Ran a track?

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  It was, it was the sprints, though, so it was just a sudden burst of energy.

• 1:58:52Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  Wasn't anything prolonged. Um, you know, I've done a lot of strenuous hiking and backpacking.

• 1:59:00Joe Rogan?

  The sprinting, when you were doing that, did, were you particularly happy or depressed when you were doing that?

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I, well, you know, sprinting itself is great, it's like.

• 1:59:09Joe Rogan?

  I don't mean that. I mean, during the time period where you were participating in sprinting, did you have any depression?

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no. Well, I suppose, you know.

• 1:59:19Joe Rogan?

  Teen angst?

• 1:59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, teenage angst, you know, growing up in the San Diego Valley.

• 1:59:23Joe Rogan?

  Right, that everybody has.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I had that while I was doing martial arts. It's not like it cures it. But I do know personally, me, if I go long periods of time where I don't exercise, I get depressed. I don't feel good. Feel shitty. I feel off.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:39Joe Rogan?

  I think, uh, our bodies, put vanity aside, because I think a lot of very intelligent people associate exercise with vanity. But I, I think your body has a physical requirement to achieve, like, homeostasis, to achieve balance, to achieve, like, an ability to kind of, like, uh, exist in a neutral place. You're always affected by the world, but the more neutral you are, the better. Like, the more you're just, you, you exist. And you're not, like, constantly wound up about something, or constantly upset about this, or constantly fearing that, or being overwhelmed with anxiety. I think some of that is in response to a lack of physical movement.

• 2:00:23Joe Rogan?

  I think the body is designed to exist in a very primal world that doesn't exist anymore. And so, because the body had a lot of requirements ten thousand, fifteen thousand years ago, I think we're, we're still programmed in that general way. And that the only way to keep a balance of the mind and the body together for me is to constantly engage in exercise, rigorous exercise.

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, what what kind of diet do you follow?

• 2:00:52Joe Rogan?

  Mostly, I eat meat, mostly meat.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  Mostly meat.

• 2:00:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:56Speaker 01

  Beef?

• 2:00:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I eat beef, but I eat a lot of wild game, a lot of elk. I eat deer and wild pigs. Um, I I do eat some vegetables sometimes, but only if I feel like it.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:08Joe Rogan?

  I don't eat them for nutrition. I eat fruit and I take a lot of vitamins.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and no greens?

• 2:01:14Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I'll eat greens every now and then. I'll have like a salad if I feel like having a salad, but I don't think I'm having a salad for health, you know? I think.

• 2:01:22Speaker 01

  It's for taste.

• 2:01:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's for, just I like eating stuff.

• 2:01:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you like pretzels?

• 2:01:27Joe Rogan?

  I do, I try not to eat them.

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love pretzels, that's my weak spot.

• 2:01:31Joe Rogan?

  They're kind of bullshit, but I was at the mall the other day and we walked by, what is it, Annie's, Annie's Pretzels, is that what it is?

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  Good?

• 2:01:38Joe Rogan?

  It's crack, I didn't eat one, but that smell, the smell in the air was like, there was a giant ass line, a huge line, there's no line for anything else in that food court, but that pretzel line was big.

• 2:01:49Speaker 01

  There must be, there must be something in those pretzels.

• 2:01:51Joe Rogan?

  Deliciousness?

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, MDMA.

• 2:01:53Joe Rogan?

  They're so good, they're so good, no, there's no MDMA, it's just delicious. You feel terrible right after you ate it, like, what did I do?

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  That's like MDMA.

• 2:02:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but there's no five HTP that you can take that's gonna help you.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:06Joe Rogan?

  The uh, the the down you feel off of a a pretzel sometimes is worth it, though.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:02:11Joe Rogan?

  Cause they're so delicious, especially the ones that wrap a hot dog in the pretzel.

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a month or two ago, I was at Union Station in Los Angeles and there was a stand, you know, selling, you know, the, you know, the encased hot dogs in, in pretzels. You have to apply a fair amount of mustard.

• 2:02:28Joe Rogan?

  They're so good, though, right? It's delicious, terrible for you, so good, though.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  We took an Amtrak back from Union Station to Albuquerque, you know, like an overnight.

• 2:02:38Joe Rogan?

  How's that?

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it was quaint, but it wasn't like efficient.

• 2:02:44Joe Rogan?

  It's too slow.

• 2:02:45Speaker 01

  It's pretty slow, pretty noisy.

• 2:02:46Joe Rogan?

  And you you start thinking, I could have been on a plane. I would have already been there.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  Right, it would have been just, uh, you know, two hours rather than whatever it was fourteen or so.

• 2:02:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's stupid.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, look at European trains, though. You can really have fun on a European train. They're comfy, they're on time. Good food, good coffee.

• 2:03:04Joe Rogan?

  Uh, what's the fastest train? Is it Japan? Do they have the bullet trains?

• 2:03:07Speaker 01

  I think the Chinese.

• 2:03:09Joe Rogan?

  Chinese?

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  Or the Japanese, yeah, really, really fast.

• 2:03:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's one of the things that Elon was trying to do with America. They were trying to put bullet trains that would take you from San Francisco to New York City in like a few hours.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there should be no reason not to do that.

• 2:03:25Joe Rogan?

  The only reason would.

• 2:03:26Speaker 01

  Uh, other than the automobile industry.

• 2:03:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, also, tracks. Like, who's watching those tracks? You're going, if you're going a thousand miles an hour or whatever you're going, who's watching the tracks? Who's making sure someone doesn't put something on the tracks?

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  Right, right, that's even a concern now, but yeah, it would certainly be if the people are going a thousand miles an hour.

• 2:03:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like, I'm amazed at how few derailments there are. If you think about how many trains are flying back and forth.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, well, I lived in Gallup, New Mexico for years, and it's a train town, more or less, and, you know, there were

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  I think they, there were three trains came through every hour, you know, twenty-four, seven, so.

• 2:04:09Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, seventy trains, seventy-five trains every day would go through town, and there were very few derailments.

• 2:04:16Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, they're pretty effective.

• 2:04:18Joe Rogan?

  But you're constantly waiting for trains, then. Like, there's always those things that come down, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:04:24Joe Rogan?

  You gotta sit there and wait while the train flies by.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, it was a point of controversy in that little town, like, were they going to build a tunnel underneath or a bridge over?

• 2:04:33Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, the business folks in, you know, the downtown area. And it would be noisy, too, that trains would go by, you know, thirty-five miles an hour, and they're big trains, like, you know, some of the cargo trains are more than a mile long, uh, and they can just take you forever to cross Second and Third Street, uh, and you're just, you know, stuck there.

• 2:04:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, fuck that.

• 2:04:57Speaker 01

  Right, well.

• 2:04:59Joe Rogan?

  I just wouldn't want to be in a place that's that noisy. Especially if you're, you're in New Mexico, it's kinda quiet.

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  Well, your bones rattle, uh, when the trains go by and, um, you know, they honk, their, their horns. Like, they have to do three, then two, then three, then two.

• 2:05:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's some apartments in New York's, New York City.

• 2:05:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:05:18Joe Rogan?

  Where the apartment building's there and the train's going right in front of the apartment building.

• 2:05:21Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:05:21Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:05:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:23Joe Rogan?

  Like, how, how cheap is that rent that you've agreed to that?

• 2:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the long-term effects on your mental and physical health.

• 2:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, whenever someone's crazy in a movie, they always live there. They just live like right where the train is. You know, he just, it kinda accentuates their craziness, right? They get no rest.

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  Uh, I know, well, you know, my mom's mom lived in a little town in western Pennsylvania. And, you know, the coal trains would, would, uh, you know, pass through her backyard, basically. Like, you know, there's a little hill in her backyard and the train tracks. And I really enjoyed, you know, sitting there as the trains went by, you know, smelling the exhaust. That was, you know, something.

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  That was an early manifestation of my.

• 2:06:07Joe Rogan?

  Look at this.

• 2:06:08Speaker 02

  Have you seen these in China?

• 2:06:09Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, that's crazy, it goes through the building.

• 2:06:12Speaker 02

  That's what they say.

• 2:06:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would be noisy.

• 2:06:14Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if you're above that, trying to sleep? Fuck outta here.

• 2:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:19Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 2:06:22Speaker 02

  That's not real.

• 2:06:23Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, that can't be real.

• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that can't be real. Yeah, they, they couldn't find anybody to live there.

• 2:06:31Joe Rogan?

  You could.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  Well, I, I, I guess prisoners, maybe.

• 2:06:34Joe Rogan?

  Somebody would agree.

• 2:06:35Speaker 01

  It could be a jail or a prison, too.

• 2:06:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, or just some crazy person.

• 2:06:40Joe Rogan?

  That just thinks that's a good idea. You know?

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06:44Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people like to live in different ways.

• 2:06:45Speaker 02

  They also have this, they're, they're markets right on the train line.

• 2:06:49Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:06:50Speaker 02

  And they have to like pick up the stuff when it comes through.

• 2:06:52Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:06:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's efficient.

• 2:06:55Joe Rogan?

  So they quickly grab their baskets and stuff and pull it out of the way?

• 2:06:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, cause like people are walking on the train track.

• 2:07:00Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts. That is crazy.

• 2:07:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, and rather than move, they just figure it out.

• 2:07:08Joe Rogan?

  Wow, eight times a day, seven days a week.

• 2:07:12Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:07:13Speaker 02

  You have to put things away, you have three minutes.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Yeah.

• 2:07:16Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:19Joe Rogan?

  How many dogs do they lose every year?

• 2:07:22Speaker 01

  Well, suicides, too.

• 2:07:23Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure.

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  Lots of people that, like, at this, the small town that I was, I was living in, yeah, you know, that would be like a, you know, regular thing if people would, you know, lay down on the tracks if they were having a bad day.

• 2:07:36Joe Rogan?

  Mmm. Imagine if we can cure that with Elon Musk's Neuralink. Everybody sign up.

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, on the reservation, might be hard to, you know, get the word out there.

• 2:07:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they probably don't want to listen to you anyway. They probably want you to take it, so that you all go extinct, they'll take over again.

• 2:07:54Speaker 01

  Some crazy white man idea.

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  I mean, these are people that were hesitant to agree to get photographed.

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:08:03Joe Rogan?

  You know? They're, they're gonna be the last adopters of this stupid fucking brain implant.

• 2:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:09Joe Rogan?

  These stupid white people are doing.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Well, you know, well, well, so Gallup is, you know, like, on their reservation, you know, pretty much, you know, the Navajo Reservation, yeah, and, uh, most of the, you know, population on this native.

• 2:08:23Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was pretty interesting, you know, living among, you know, the natives for fourteen years. And, you know, their view of white people is they're noisy, they're superficial, and they're kind of dumb.

• 2:08:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's plenty of examples that would support that, if you were inclined to be, uh, you know, less charitable.

• 2:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:45Joe Rogan?

  And make a rash generalization about white people.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Well, I learned to be, you know, quiet there, because there's, there isn't anything to do, um, and, you know, there aren't that many people, so.

• 2:08:58Joe Rogan?

  We were talking about this before it aired, one of the big reasons you moved out of there was... It was, it's hard to get healthcare, right? Like.

• 2:09:07Speaker 01

  The, the healthcare was rather poor. Yeah, like I, you know, came down with pneumonia. This is 2014 and I was not, I didn't receive the best care. Ended up getting C. diff because of all the antibiotics.

• 2:09:20Joe Rogan?

  What is that?

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  It's this horrible diarrhea.

• 2:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  Like a fatal diarrhea. I think 30,000 people in the country die every year from C. diff.

• 2:09:30Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:09:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was battling that. You know, it, the quality of the care was so poor that I was taking notes. And I thought, if I live through this, I'm gonna write about it. And so that is the basis of that autobiographical novel I wrote a few years ago.

• 2:09:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  You know, Joseph Levy escapes death. Yeah, it's an account of.

• 2:09:55Joe Rogan?

  I remember I was worried about you, but I didn't want to pry. Cause I, we had gone back and forth in the email and you were just telling me your health was not well.

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. We were talking about the possibility of me being on your show and saying, I'm just too sick. I can't travel.

• 2:10:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Generally, people don't bounce back when they say they're that sick. I was really worried about you, but I didn't want to, I still know like, how does one, you know? I didn't want to pry, you know? I felt like if you want to tell me about what's going on, you would tell me about what's going on.

• 2:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a really hard time. Yeah, and I bounced back, like I swore.

• 2:10:31Joe Rogan?

  You look great. You look better than ever, actually.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 2:10:33Joe Rogan?

  You really do.

• 2:10:34Speaker 01

  You too.

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I swore I would bounce back and feel even better than I did, you know, before I got sick. So, yeah, but it was a chore. Well, it did strengthen my belief in God, speaking of God. Like, I wasn't quite, well, that, you know, God was not quite ready to take me. And I wanted to become, you know, closer to that power that let, you know, that let me live.

• 2:11:02Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. And did you feel like, because God was not, um, God did not want to take you? Did you feel like you had work to do?

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, I had to get back to work. I had to continue being useful, like I just couldn't rest on my laurels.

• 2:11:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if you had called and you said, how's it going? I'd say, bad.

• 2:11:28Joe Rogan?

  Sounds like it was real bad.

• 2:11:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:30Joe Rogan?

  That's why I was worried.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:32Joe Rogan?

  Cause you know, I'm just too used to getting those kinda emails and then you hear that someone passed away.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I know. And you know, in my generation, it's you know, kind of accelerating.

• 2:11:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Um, so when you did finally get out of this, how long was like the, the, the actual sick period? How long was the period where you were really hurt?

• 2:11:58Speaker 01

  Well, the pneumonia was about ten days and the C. diff started about ten days after that and went on for six weeks.

• 2:12:06Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I lost fifteen pounds.

• 2:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, and you're a thin guy to begin with.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't have fifteen pounds to lose. So, um, yeah, I found a good psychotherapist. I went in there and fell asleep, you know, the first visit. I said, "I'm really tired. I feel really weak." And you know, that was it. And I started working with her for like the next four years. Yeah, because obviously, things had gotten so, um, you know, so dire because I wasn't taking care of myself.

• 2:12:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  Uh, so I had to kinda get to the bottom of that. Yeah, you know, so it took another maybe seven months before I started to feel like my strength back and my brain functioning again. You know, one turning point, this might interest, you know, some of your listeners, is I got vaccinated. Uh, you know, for the flu in like, you know, January, which was nine months after this all started. And it was the most painful vaccination I'd ever had. It was beyond ten. It wasn't even throbbing, it was just constant, like beyond any pain in my arm I'd ever felt.

• 2:13:12Joe Rogan?

  How long did it last?

• 2:13:13Speaker 01

  Twelve hours, and I woke up feeling great.

• 2:13:16Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:13:17Speaker 01

  Like the best I had felt in almost a year.

• 2:13:19Joe Rogan?

  So after twelve hours, just wore off?

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  I went to bed thinking, "God, I hope this wears off or else I'm gonna have to get some attention." Yeah, it just wore off and I felt pretty darn good the next morning.

• 2:13:29Joe Rogan?

  How weird.

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  Very weird. I guess my immune system just really needed to just get socked or something.

• 2:13:35Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it seemed to have, you know, done the trick.

• 2:13:39Joe Rogan?

  Just strange that you'd have like a local pain that's that intense.

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  It was.

• 2:13:44Joe Rogan?

  Generally don't hear about that.

• 2:13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was just at the vaccination site. Very interesting.

• 2:13:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, weird.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Do you get vaccinated? This might be a personal question.

• 2:13:52Joe Rogan?

  No, you can ask me anything.

• 2:13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. No. I almost got vaccinated for covid.

• 2:13:58Speaker 01

  Right, I was wondering.

• 2:13:59Joe Rogan?

  Um, I was, uh, totally willing to do it. It was the early days of the pandemic and the UFC had allocated about, I think it was a hundred and fifty or so, um, doses for all their employees because they, they were running shows during the pandemic. When everyone was terrified of it. So, I go to Vegas to do this, uh, UFC event and you had, I had a test before I leave, then you fly, you test when you get there. And, you know, they're really strict with their protocols, make sure that no one was sick. When people were sick, like if someone, uh, like a fighter's corner man was sick, everyone was kicked off, uh, all those people were off. The, the fighter couldn't compete even if he was negative.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:14:41Joe Rogan?

  Because he had been exposed.

• 2:14:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:43Joe Rogan?

  So they were real strict. And so they said, uh, we have these vaccines, if you want one. They didn't tell me I had to take it, but they said, if you want one. I said, sure. I said, uh, can I get it right before the fights? And they said, sure. And they didn't know that I had to go to the actual clinic or the, the hospital. So I contacted the doctor. I said, hey, uh, I'm here, uh, can I, can you vaccinate me before the show? He said, you actually have to go to the clinic on Monday. Can you, can you stay till Monday? I said, I can't, but I'll be back in two weeks for the next event. So during the time where I was gonna get shot and then two weeks later, they pulled it. So the Johnson and Johnson vaccine got pulled.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:15:22Joe Rogan?

  Because people were getting blood clots. And so then two people that I knew that did get it had strokes.

• 2:15:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:15:29Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if it was a coincidence, but it seemed rather odd.

• 2:15:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:15:33Joe Rogan?

  And then I started getting nervous. And so then I started reading different things by different scientists that had opposing perspectives on both the efficacy and the safety of the vaccine. And then I got covid. And then when I got covid, I got over it really quickly. And then I got attacked on CNN. So I was like, okay, what's going on here? Like, why are you guys upset that I took a certain medicine and got better? I've never even heard of such a thing. And they started labeling it, this ivermectin as a horse dewarmer, which is crazy because it won the Nobel Prize for people. So it was like, I was watching this bizarre thing take place in scale on mass media against me.

• 2:16:15Joe Rogan?

  But against me in the most preposterous way possible because I was healthy. I got better quick. Like in three days, I was better and I made a video. In six days, I was working out like full steam. I didn't, I didn't get sick for long at all. And I listed a bunch of different medications that I took. But for one, for whatever reason, they labeled ivermectin as the thing that needed to be attacked. And it was, they all in lockstep. MSNBC, CNN, newspapers, all of them, making these ridiculous statements that I was taking veterinary medicine. I got medicine from a doctor, from a pharmacy, an actual human

• 2:16:55Joe Rogan?

  doctor, medication for humans. And more importantly, I got better, like really quick. Like, what is happening here? This is the strangest thing I've ever seen in my life. It was like this mass psychosis that was propagated by the media who were only intent on keeping everyone terrified and offering only one solution. And that solution, just coincidentally, happened to be insanely profitable.

• 2:17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's hard to figure.

• 2:17:24Joe Rogan?

  It was weird to go through. It's very, very weird to go through. So needless to say, I have become very skeptical about a lot of narratives that are expressed constantly without any real examination.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  Well, do you think they're going after you or going after the ivermectin?

• 2:17:44Joe Rogan?

  Going after the ivermectin, 100%. I was a simple, easy to make fun of person who did a ridiculous thing. And that's why they were able to say horsey wormer, you know? But it's such a dumb thing to say because this, we have, it was a playbook that would have been really effective in 1998. You could have gotten that done in 1998. The problem is, there's too much information that's available. And when you're mocking a person for taking a drug that a human being won the Nobel Prize for in like 2015, for its use in humans, like that seems...

• 2:18:20Joe Rogan?

  Insane. Also, you're knocking people taking off-label medication under the advice of a trained physician? What? Like, what's going on? And who are these people that are doing this? These talking heads on CNN? Why are they all agreeing? How come not one person is saying, hey, what is the reason why ivermectin would be taken in the first place? Oh, oh, it stops viral replication in vitro? Well, maybe there's some, maybe there's some reason to use this. Maybe these doctors are correct. All these anecdotal stories about people taking it and then getting better quickly, like, is there anything to this? But there was none of that in the media. Because they are sponsored by pharmaceutical drug companies who clearly had marching orders.

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do you make of this virus that's killing folks in the Congo?

• 2:19:09Joe Rogan?

  Jesus, who knows?

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:11Joe Rogan?

  I don't, I don't know anything about it.

• 2:19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hundred and seventy people have died. They don't know what it is. It's some weird African virus.

• 2:19:18Joe Rogan?

  Fun.

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:19Joe Rogan?

  See if Bill Gates had been visiting there lately.

• 2:19:23Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I, I'm terrified of pandemics, for sure. I just, that one wasn't one to be terrified of, and they made us terrified of it, which makes me terrified.

• 2:19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:32Joe Rogan?

  Because that was one where they, you know, we talked about this in the podcast, where they made fun of Donald Trump because he was saying it's less than one percent of the people who get it die. And then CNN was mocking him, saying it's 3.4%, 3.4%. You know, it was considerably less than 1%. He was right. But they had marching orders, and his marching orders was to scare the shit out of people and to tell them to get vaccinated.

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a scary time, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, they closed down the town that I was living in back then, Gallup. They, it was closed down. You couldn't go into it if you didn't live there.

• 2:20:04Joe Rogan?

  God, so weird.

• 2:20:05Speaker 01

  For nine days.

• 2:20:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, nine days is better than California. California, they did a whole year and a half of like, complete restrictions. They were stopping outdoor dining. Just arbitrarily. I had a friend and his brother works for the state. And he said to the lady who was in charge of it, he said, why are you stopping outdoor dining? There's no evidence that there's spread through outdoor dining. And she said, it's the optics. The optics, like we're gonna shut businesses down for optics. Because they had to show that they're doing something because there's like a noticeable spread that's being reported in the media.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's called virtue signaling, right?

• 2:20:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also your, the, the real problem is their jobs are not dependent upon their society functioning. They get paid no matter what. So if society crumbles and all these businesses, they lost seventy percent of their restaurants at one point in time. Seventy percent just went under. That's insane to continue a practice like that. Especially where within six months, they should have known that it wasn't as fatal as everybody said it was. When they already had the data in about how come all these people that are dying, they all have like significant amount of comorbidities. How come all these people that are dying are over the age of eighty? How come, it, it doesn't mean fuck those people. It means protect those people, but let everybody else get back to work.

• 2:21:29Joe Rogan?

  Like you just have control of these people and you're continuing to enforce this control while their lives are destroyed. How many people turned to drugs? How many people committed suicide because they lost everything completely out of their power? How many lives were lost? How many kids had their childhood stripped away from them and have significant learning problems? Not just because they didn't go to school, but because even when they went to school, they had to wear a mask. The whole, so the, the, the, the whole reading people's lips and hearing sounds come out, everything was weird. Reading faces was weird. If you're a toddler and your experience is going through the first couple of years of your schooling and your, your preschool with fucking masks on, like what is that? What did we do to these people?

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  Well, we'll find out.

• 2:22:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:14Joe Rogan?

  And the, the only good out of it, in my opinion, is that people realize that it was stupid. And they won't be as quick to accept it in the future.

• 2:22:25Speaker 01

  You think if there's another pandemic?

• 2:22:27Joe Rogan?

  Right. I don't think people are gonna accept the government, which is filled with a bunch of fucking silly people that have decided to run the government. Having complete control over whether or not you can run your business. Or you can decide to take, you know, a trip somewhere, or you could visit your parents when they're in the hospital. Like all that is crazy.

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder what impact RFK Junior's going to have on the, you know, the delivery of your healthcare now.

• 2:22:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's gonna have so much of an impact that they're talking about preemptively pardoning Fauci.

• 2:23:02Joe Rogan?

  Like, how do you pardon someone that didn't do a crime?

• 2:23:06Speaker 01

  Preemptively.

• 2:23:07Joe Rogan?

  How are you pardoning someone where he's not? Not only is he not convicted of a crime, he's not even tried, he's not accused, he's not indicted? Like, what do you?

• 2:23:18Speaker 01

  I, I guess that's called blanket immunity?

• 2:23:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's never been done before. There's never been preemptive pardons for people.

• 2:23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's an interesting idea.

• 2:23:25Joe Rogan?

  That may have been committing crimes.

• 2:23:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:23:29Joe Rogan?

  It's weird.

• 2:23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, do you know much about the fluoride story? A lot of people wonder about the pineal gland and DMT synthesis if you have a calcified pineal, which is more likely in, you know, if you're fluoridated.

• 2:23:43Joe Rogan?

  Have they ever done autopsy studies on people that are in high fluoride areas? Check out their pineal glands? Or is this just like one of those things that people say?

• 2:23:52Speaker 01

  Uh, well, it's the case in lower animals that you feed them a high fluoride diet and their pineal glands calcify more rapidly. I'm not sure what the human literature is.

• 2:24:02Joe Rogan?

  So, when you say that, um, when they calcify more rapidly, like what animals are they serving them?

• 2:24:09Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:24:09Joe Rogan?

  Fluoride?

• 2:24:10Speaker 01

  Um, you know, rats, mice.

• 2:24:13Joe Rogan?

  And what have the results been? Like, significant differences?

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I mean, you're, oh, you know, these experimental animals pineal glands anyway. Yeah, they do, you know, calcify more rapidly.

• 2:24:25Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  You know, but whether or not that actually correlates to a reduction in melatonin production, for example, I, I'm not that familiar with, you know, the literature.

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  Is the number commensurate with what would even be possible through fluoride and water? Or would have to be some other form of poisoning? Is there like a very high level of fluoride that they're giving them?

• 2:24:46Speaker 01

  Uh, with the experimental animals, yeah, this fluoride-rich kind of diet.

• 2:24:52Joe Rogan?

  So then the question would be, what about the accumulation of fluoride in small doses over the course of a long lifetime?

• 2:24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, yeah, I'm just not that current on, you know, the literature. You, I, you know, there's a couple of things that occurred that caused pineal calcification. One is aging. You know, the older you get, the more calcification there is. You know, back when I was, you know, current on the pineal physiology data, which was a long time ago, like, you know, forty years ago, you know, there wasn't a relationship between the degree of calcification in the human pineal and production of melatonin. You know, so, like, at least according, you know, to the data, you know, to the data from the eighties, you know, the degree of calcification wasn't, you know, functionally

• 2:25:42Speaker 01

  significant, you know, but I get an email here and there, wondering if fluoridation of the pineal might reduce the production of endogenous DMT, which might, you know, theorize takes place, yeah, but we don't really know quite yet if the pineal even makes DMT, you know, let alone if pineal calcification might reduce it.

• 2:26:05Joe Rogan?

  Wouldn't it be interesting to measure different lifestyles and then also look at the age in which these people are and see if there's, like, when they die, if there's calcification, you know, give you one person who's a marathon runner and they're sixty five versus one person who's sedentary, drinks a lot, and they're also sixty five.

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you would think it would correlate with your overall general health.

• 2:26:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:32Joe Rogan?

  I mean, and if you're thinking that it's age-related, it may be age-related, or is it exposure over long periods of time, you know, where it accumulates?

• 2:26:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:26:43Joe Rogan?

  Because the amount of fluoride that's in the water is very small, and this is one of the things that people point to when they say that it's not dangerous, it's very small, but the question is, like, how, where's it go? Like, does it actually leave the body, or does it accumulate somewhere?

• 2:26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you'd have to compare, you know, you'd have to compare autopsies in older, you know, folks from... You know, from areas that never had fluoride in their water versus those that did. And and I am certain those studies have been done. You know, like I said, I'm just not that current.

• 2:27:14Joe Rogan?

  I just don't buy the idea that you should put fluoride in the water to prevent tooth decay. I just think that sounds like, the way I've described it, I said, it's like putting sunscreen in the apples. Because some people get sunburn. Like, that doesn't seem, that doesn't seem logical. You could just brush your fucking teeth. Like, you don't need to have this weird neurotoxic chemical in our water, even in low supplies.

• 2:27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Would you put, you know, fluoride in the toothpaste?

• 2:27:41Joe Rogan?

  No. I don't have fluoride in my toothpaste. I don't have cavities.

• 2:27:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I do. I've had a few cavities.

• 2:27:47Joe Rogan?

  Do you eat sugar?

• 2:27:48Speaker 01

  I love sugar.

• 2:27:49Joe Rogan?

  That's it. We found it. I don't hardly ever eat sugar.

• 2:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:54Joe Rogan?

  I mean, occasionally I'll have a cookie or something like that, but it's not a normal thing for me. I think it's diet. It's diet and it's brushing your teeth.

• 2:28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and I think exercising your jaw, too. Like, you know, chewing gum.

• 2:28:06Joe Rogan?

  Right. Xylitol gum is supposed to be really good for your jaw and good for your teeth.

• 2:28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:11Speaker 01

  If you have a healthy jaw, healthy chin, I mean, you breathe easier.

• 2:28:15Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, um, I don't know how they got started with the whole fluoride in the water thing, but it seems like a giant scam. Like, Big Fluoride is still selling fluoride to all these different water departments, and they don't want to stop. That's, that's the only thing that makes sense to me. It doesn't make any sense that people would be willing to potentially sacrifice their children's IQ. There's a direct correlation between high levels of calcium in the water, or excuse me, high levels of fluoride in the water, and low IQs. This has been established. So if that's true, that should be a fucking giant red flag for people. I mean, and once you eliminate all the other environmental things that may be consistent with the people that have lower IQs than children,

• 2:28:59Joe Rogan?

  if you're just pointing only at fluoride, if this is one thing that varies, like, this is a potential real problem. Like, we know that leaded gas reduced people's IQ. You know that, right?

• 2:29:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:11Joe Rogan?

  When they used to have leaded gas, like, people like me and you, who grew up at a time with leaded gas, you probably would be, like, have a ten-point higher IQ if you didn't grow up with leaded gas. I mean, there's some sort of a percentage. I think it's a small percentage, but it's been measured. It's been measured that, find out, like, what percentage IQ...

• 2:29:35Joe Rogan?

  What percentage of a detriment is leaded gas to your IQ? Cause they actually have done studies on people and like what happened once unleaded gas was introduced? And how children's IQs went up?

• 2:29:49Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, super helpy. Yeah, yeah, it was quite helpful.

• 2:29:53Joe Rogan?

  It's still in the ground in some places.

• 2:29:55Speaker 01

  Well, it's still in a lot of pipes.

• 2:29:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 2:29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Lead pipes?

• 2:29:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the whole Flint thing.

• 2:30:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, right, right, right.

• 2:30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, they used lead pipes. How crazy.

• 2:30:05Joe Rogan?

  Your drinking water.

• 2:30:06Speaker 01

  Well, the Romans used lead pipes.

• 2:30:08Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 2:30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, for their plumbing. You know, the Latin name for lead is plumb. You plumbum.

• 2:30:16Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:30:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's why the pipes were called plumbing.

• 2:30:20Joe Rogan?

  That's probably why the Colosseum got started. They're all fucked up on lead poisoning and just willing to throw their soldiers to the lions. Nearly half of US population exposed to dangerously high lead levels. So what does this say about IQ? Here it goes, exposure to car exhaust. Estimate childhood lead exposure has on average led to a reduction of 2.6 IQ points per person. That's nuts. Research also found that non-Hispanic black people, individuals with lower family income to poverty ratio, and those with an older housing age were likely to have higher levels of lead in their blood. Well, probably because they lived in urban areas where there's more car traffic. Right?

• 2:31:01Speaker 01

  Uh, most likely.

• 2:31:02Joe Rogan?

  Most likely.

• 2:31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, if they're inhaling.

• 2:31:04Joe Rogan?

  If they're in cities.

• 2:31:06Speaker 01

  Lead particles.

• 2:31:07Joe Rogan?

  People that live in like very congested areas. Wow. 1973 Environmental Protection Agency issued its first call for manufacturers to begin a gradual reduction of the amount of lead in gasoline. I bet they're gonna look back at fluoride the same way we look back at leaded gas.

• 2:31:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:24Joe Rogan?

  We're gonna go, what the hell were we doing? It doesn't even make any sense.

• 2:31:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's for your teeth.

• 2:31:30Speaker 01

  It's for your teeth.

• 2:31:30Joe Rogan?

  Brush your fucking teeth.

• 2:31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:32Joe Rogan?

  And if you use fluoride in your toothpaste, great, just spit it out. Don't swallow that shit, right? You don't swallow tooth. My friend Eddie said it best. He said, if fluoride wasn't a problem, why would they want to sell you toothpaste without fluoride? And why does it say fluoride free in the toothpaste? Why do people gravitate towards fluoride free toothpaste? Well, because of studies like this, where they've found that it actually, there is a correlation between IQ levels and fluoride. And at high levels, it's fucking dangerous for you. But there's all these people trying to dismiss it. Oh, stop. What's the big deal? There's nothing to this. Look at the amount of fluoride. Like, what about a cumulative? Do we know? Do you really know?

• 2:32:11Joe Rogan?

  Or why, why, why are you so willing to accept the fact that it's a good idea to throw neurotoxins in the water supply?

• 2:32:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:32:22Speaker 01

  Well, you know, they may have just, you know, discovered it, uh, you know, uh, through serendipity. You know, there may have been some.

• 2:32:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a, they did discover it through that. There was a, an area in Texas, I believe, where they had high natural levels of fluoride in the water. And there's a corresponding lower instance of, um, cavities.

• 2:32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

• 2:32:44Joe Rogan?

  And that floor is, I think it's Texas.

• 2:32:47Joe Rogan?

  Google, how did they start putting fluoride in the water? I'm pretty sure it's that.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  There's some healing springs of some sort.

• 2:32:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, some mineral rich fluoride water. I don't know. But either way, just brush your teeth. Stop eating so much sweets and brush your teeth. Both those things are a good idea. Fluoride in the water, not a good idea. If you want to sell fluoride and tell people to add it to their water, fine. But put it in everybody's water, that's crazy. That seems crazy.

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, as a dentist or when I was a small kid, we used to get these, you know, fluoride treatments.

• 2:33:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, with this like blue gun, you know, kind of gel that they would.

• 2:33:27Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:33:27Speaker 01

  You know, put in a splint and you put it on your upper and lower teeth for like a five minutes or whatnot to.

• 2:33:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, kill all those bad germs.

• 2:33:34Speaker 01

  A fluoride treatment.

• 2:33:37Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, thank goodness.

• 2:33:38Joe Rogan?

  Lower your curiosity.

• 2:33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you lower your IQ, which is maybe not a bad idea.

• 2:33:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, you gotta wonder, the thing you were talking about before about some people just don't have imagination.

• 2:33:49Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:33:50Joe Rogan?

  Which is really crazy to think that some people are just, they just got a bad hand.

• 2:33:57Speaker 01

  Uh, well, they can't make stuff up. They, well, they must be quite practical, right? I mean, you see, what you see is what you get. There's no abstracting.

• 2:34:06Joe Rogan?

  That's very charitable. They might just be dull. They might be dull minded, you know? I mean, there's a certain percentage of our population that has an IQ below eighty-five. I think, what is it, like fifteen percent or something like that? Was it higher than that? We were talking about it the other day, but I don't think we ever researched the, the actual number. But it's significant enough where you're like, whoa. You're, you're running around the world with an eighty-five IQ. It's hard.

• 2:34:32Speaker 01

  Well, you kind of wonder about the IQ test, right? I, I mean, it was, what was it called? The Stanford Binet Test. Um, it was, you know, developed way long ago, may not really measure all aspects of intelligence, so.

• 2:34:45Joe Rogan?

  That's true.

• 2:34:46Speaker 01

  You know, maybe someone with an eighty-five point IQ is, you know, smart in other ways, like emotionally intelligent, for example.

• 2:34:54Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so.

• 2:34:57Joe Rogan?

  With a seventy IQ, you have like two percent, two point something percent of the people?

• 2:35:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:04Joe Rogan?

  When you get to eighty-five, you have thirteen point six percent, so thirteen point six percent

• 2:35:11Joe Rogan?

  have an IQ at eighty-five or below.

• 2:35:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:35:15Joe Rogan?

  That's a lot. Thirty-four percent is a hundred to eighty-five.

• 2:35:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:35:22Joe Rogan?

  But you have to also factor in education, right? Like to take an IQ test, you have to be able to understand concepts. You have to be able to solve problems and, and you most likely would have, have to have been exposed to many problems when you were younger for you to understand how these work. And some people have had a very poor education and they might be intelligent, they might be very emotionally intelligent.

• 2:35:44Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, that was what I was thinking is that, yeah, it would be a different scale of intelligence than, than you're, uh, you're purely cognitive.

• 2:35:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's one of the interesting elements about genetic engineering of the humans. There is a big article in something I was reading, oh, Ecstatic Integration. It's a newsletter put out by Jules Evans, a friend. And he dove into genetic engineering of fetuses. Like, you can have a three DNA fetus or embryo. You know, like, the mom, the dad, and some super smart person, or actually a super athletic person. You know, so you could do like a chimera, almost, in the human situation.

• 2:36:34Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. That's probably already happened.

• 2:36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is happening offshore.

• 2:36:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, you know, the gist of...

• 2:36:43Joe Rogan?

  China's probably creating a race of super people.

• 2:36:46Speaker 01

  Well, the first genetic engineering of the fetus occurred in China. It was a fellow working to develop HIV.

• 2:36:55Joe Rogan?

  That's what he says.

• 2:36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:56Joe Rogan?

  But it accidentally made them higher IQ.

• 2:36:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:37:00Joe Rogan?

  Accidentally.

• 2:37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, so that guy's back at work.

• 2:37:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, he went to jail for a little bit.

• 2:37:06Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, he's got a big lab, lots of funding.

• 2:37:09Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of weird. It seems like they kind of made him a scapegoat, a little bit, which they tend to do over there.

• 2:37:15Speaker 01

  Well, you'd think that in a lot of ways, that he would be celebrated. Like, you know, for example, the Scottish scientist that cloned that sheep, Dolly. Yeah, they were heroes.

• 2:37:27Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:28Joe Rogan?

  But I think we think very differently about it when it's being done with people. We get super nervous, especially if you're going to be the first person that does it. There's going to be a lot of outrage. And I think some of that outrage is going to be by people that wish they did it first. So they're going to be pretending that this is horrible that you've done this.

• 2:37:44Speaker 01

  Right, they were scooped.

• 2:37:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder if there is that kind of reaction with the first heart transplant, or the first kidney transplant, if the originators of the methodology were demonized because they were like putting somebody else's heart in your place.

• 2:38:01Joe Rogan?

  Has to be, right? Especially, well, we're lucky that it was down in the 20s. 20th century, imagine if it had been done in the 18th century, the 16th century. You know, if you in the 1500s said, okay, I know how to save you. This guy just got run over by a wagon. I'm gonna take his heart out, I'm gonna cut you open, put his heart into you. Like, what?

• 2:38:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:38:20Joe Rogan?

  And that wouldn't have even worked because your body would have rejected it back then because they didn't have the proper drugs that allowed people to accept other people's organs and suppress your immune system. So your immune system doesn't reject the organ.

• 2:38:31Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Yeah, um, I never was in a heart transplant, uh, o- operating theater. You know, once in an emergency room, actually, I was able to, you know, crack somebody's chest open and work on their heart, you know, kind of.

• 2:38:48Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:38:49Speaker 01

  You give it the massage. Well, the person, you know, was quite sick, he was dying and we, you know, tried everything, well, you know, like everything, you know, like. We used, I'm a, I'm a defibrillator, we, um, we, you know, put some epinephrine in a big syringe, put it through his chest into his heart, didn't help. And, you know, the last thing that we could do was do open heart massage.

• 2:39:15Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, o- open chest massage.

• 2:39:18Joe Rogan?

  Yo.

• 2:39:18Speaker 01

  It's crazy, it's crazy. Yeah, and, you know, like, you know, there were a bunch of, like, a number of, you know, students around and we each took turns, you know, like squeezing it and feel, it was pretty.

• 2:39:29Joe Rogan?

  Did it last after that?

• 2:39:30Speaker 01

  No, no, you know, by the time you open up somebody's chest and start squeezing their heart with your hands, uh, yeah, it's kind of.

• 2:39:37Joe Rogan?

  So did he make it through that day or how long did he live for?

• 2:39:39Speaker 01

  No, he.

• 2:39:40Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 2:39:41Speaker 01

  Um, he never woke up.

• 2:39:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, medical training is a pretty interesting experience, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the kinds of things that you learn to do to the human body. And the kinds of things that, you know, people let you do to them because you're a physician. It's a very interesting development of a role. You know, like, for example, when we first started working in the hospitals, you know, there's a dress code, you know, this was 1976 or so and, uh. And, you know, like, you know, there were lots of hippies in my class and, uh, and, you know, the dress code was to wear a tie. And, you know, the hippies were saying, oh, forget ties. And, you know, the teacher said, think what your mother would want to see her doctor wearing.

• 2:40:28Speaker 01

  And everybody got all kind of guilt ridden and, "Oh yeah, okay, our mom would like to see us wear a tie."

• 2:40:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so you're working to a role. You're like, you know, how you look and how you talk and how you carry yourself. Yeah, it's a very interesting, you know, conditioning, you know, social conditioning.

• 2:40:47Joe Rogan?

  And you have an extreme position of authority.

• 2:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you could ask people, you know, to do things that, you know, that nobody else would ask them and that they wouldn't even entertain if anybody else had asked them. Yeah, it's a very privileged position. It's very cool if you know what you're doing.

• 2:41:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:41:08Speaker 01

  And you don't let it go to your head, but, yeah, it's a unique apprenticeship.

• 2:41:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and they can do some wild things today. I mean, I'm living proof of it. I've had three knee operations, two knee reconstructions.

• 2:41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, well, a couple of years ago, when I was out here for the first time, you were having some bleeding into your knees, I remember.

• 2:41:30Joe Rogan?

  Um, bleeding, swelling?

• 2:41:33Speaker 01

  Some, some bad swelling at least.

• 2:41:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:36Speaker 01

  You know, maybe they withdrew some, you know, some blood from that joint?

• 2:41:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you know what it was probably? I had probably had what's called regeniquine. So regeniquine is when they take your blood out and it's like platelet-rich plasma, but they spin it in this centrifuge and it creates this like, uh, yellow liquid, which is like a super potent anti-inflammatory, and then they had injected it into my knees.

• 2:42:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:42:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, it really helps heal things. I had it done on my back, I had it done on my knees. It's amazing stuff.

• 2:42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you've gotten a bunch of knee surgery, huh?

• 2:42:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:10Joe Rogan?

  My knees are pretty beat up. My back's pretty beat up and my knees are pretty beat up.

• 2:42:14Speaker 01

  That's from your martial arts?

• 2:42:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, most of it, yeah.

• 2:42:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, do you have a knee replacement?

• 2:42:19Joe Rogan?

  No, no, I don't need that. No, it's not that bad.

• 2:42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:22Joe Rogan?

  Not nearly as bad, but, uh, quite a few people I know have one. My friend Matt got one. He's a former UFC, uh, welterweight champion, Matt Sarah. He's younger than me, he has a knee replacement. Uh, my friend Michael Bisping, he was a former UFC middleweight champion. He has both of his knees replaced. His two artificial knees.

• 2:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're doing okay with their new knees.

• 2:42:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, better, right? Like he was in severe, they were in severe pain to the point where they just couldn't take it anymore. And they can do some pretty amazing things with resurfacing of the knees now. They, you know, these titanium heads. Have you seen them?

• 2:42:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:54Joe Rogan?

  Pretty incredible.

• 2:42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:55Joe Rogan?

  They lop off the end of your knee, screw in this new one, and it just functions. My feeling, the fear I have, though, my fear is that it's only good for like twenty years or so. And then what do you gotta do? You gotta go back in there and lop off it again and put a new one in?

• 2:43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, they may have some new development.

• 2:43:15Joe Rogan?

  That's what you would hope so. You would hope so, but I mean, you're banking on that. You're like essentially making a bet. That, okay, you could chop off the end of my knee and in twenty years they're gonna have some new thing. The thing that would give me pause today, and I'm, again, I'm not giving medical advice. But if today, um, biologics are coming so far that they're able to regenerate, uh, both. Meniscus tissue and, uh, also, uh, cartilage. So they can do that now. And there was a study in Australia where they did that recently. And I think there's something else going on somewhere in the United States where they're showing promise in that regard.

• 2:43:56Joe Rogan?

  So I think if people could just hang in there for a little longer, according to my friend Brigham. Uh, who, uh, owns Ways to Well, which is a stem cell clinic out here. He is convinced that these kind of like super invasive surgeries are gonna be a thing of the past. They're gonna be able to regrow tissue and, uh, fix, like literally fix knee problems, back problems. Things along those lines.

• 2:44:21Speaker 01

  Neck problems.

• 2:44:22Joe Rogan?

  Neck problems.

• 2:44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:44:23Joe Rogan?

  They're already doing a lot of that in Mexico. Where, um, there's places like the CPI, the cellular performance institute. I had a friend of mine, Shane Dorian. He's a big wave surfer. You know, I can imagine it's a pounding thing in your back and crushed by a fifty foot wave, you know? And, uh, he, uh, had it done to his spine where they go into your discs and they inject stem cells. And to each individual disc, they actually put you under. And you're supposed to like be, you know, real relaxed for the next like six weeks. No, no heavy exercise at all. You can just kinda go walking. And after a while, it starts to kick in and now he has no back pain anymore.

• 2:45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, is he back surfing?

• 2:45:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh, stem cells. Well, you know psychedelics affect the, you know, formation of stem cells into new neurons. That's called neurogenesis.

• 2:45:15Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 2:45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 2:45:17Joe Rogan?

  Psilocybin in particular, right?

• 2:45:18Speaker 01

  Psilocybin, ketamine, DMT.

• 2:45:20Joe Rogan?

  Doesn't lion's mane do that as well, though? Like, non-psychoactive mushrooms?

• 2:45:24Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:45:26Joe Rogan?

  See if lion's mane creates neurogenesis. I think it does.

• 2:45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, Paul Stamets would know.

• 2:45:32Joe Rogan?

  I think that's one of the things that Paul Stamets talked about was doing it in a stack. Like, doing psilocybin along with, yeah, now exactly what it was. Lion's mane mushrooms can promote neurogenesis and enhance memory. Yeah, I take that stuff. I take lion's mane all the time.

• 2:45:52Joe Rogan?

  And I always wonder, how shit would my memory be if I didn't take it?

• 2:45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I was recovering, I spoke to Paul and said, "Help me, I need help." And he said lion's mane.

• 2:46:00Joe Rogan?

  He gave me that giant mushroom, that thing on the desk over there. That's what that is. That big log-looking thing.

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a mushroom?

• 2:46:08Joe Rogan?

  That's a mushroom. It's a huge one.

• 2:46:10Speaker 01

  I was wondering what that was.

• 2:46:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a mushroom. That's Paul Stamets brought me a mushroom.

• 2:46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, nice.

• 2:46:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He's a fascinating character.

• 2:46:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like Paul.

• 2:46:17Joe Rogan?

  Great guy.

• 2:46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, really great.

• 2:46:18Joe Rogan?

  I think he just got something replaced. Like a hip. A hip or a knee.

• 2:46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:46:24Joe Rogan?

  Something along those lines.

• 2:46:25Speaker 01

  Well, you know, my, uh, you know, friends that have had knee replacements, they're out skiing, they're playing golf. Yeah, they've really had, um, you know, a miraculous turnaround.

• 2:46:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you can do amazing things now. It's, uh, incredible. I just think that we're real close to not needing a fake one. Real close to be able to generate new ones.

• 2:46:46Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the organ I would like to replace are my eyes. I've, I've been, like, as a kid, I've been nearsighted and nearsighted and more nearsighted, so. Yeah, I would love to have artificial eyes. If, if, you know, they worked, obviously.

• 2:46:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what we were talking about earlier. Earlier that they're going to be able to do that someday.

• 2:47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'd be happy with that. I might wait around as long as I can to get some like I can see pretty well if it's if the environment is brightly lit, you know, but if it gets darker dim, it's it becomes difficult.

• 2:47:15Joe Rogan?

  Dude, you're gonna be able to see through walls. See if you can find that article about potential because there's not it's not just Neuralink. There's a few other competing companies that are doing very similar things. And one of them are very confident they're gonna be able to restore sight.

• 2:47:30Speaker 01

  In how many years?

• 2:47:32Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. And then on top of that, the possibility is enhanced vision. And that's what we're talking about, like being able to, you know, see like warm things like in blind sight device being developed to restore vision and people have lost their sight. Um, no, there was one that was saying you're gonna be able to have infrared, night vision, a bunch of different possibilities on top of the fact they're gonna be able to restore sight. That eventually, I don't know how you'd Google this, that wasn't just restoring memory, or excuse me, restoring vision, but enhanced vision. And then it's gonna be far.

• 2:48:15Joe Rogan?

  I think they're promising vision far greater than what human beings are personally capable of.

• 2:48:20Speaker 02

  Blind sight enables superhuman vision beyond natural limits like infrared, becomes cognitive process, not just biological. Yeah, that's what blind sight is.

• 2:48:28Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so that is the same Neuralink thing. And then on top of that, you're gonna be able to like zoom out.

• 2:48:33Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:48:33Joe Rogan?

  So you know, like you ever take like a Samsung phone, they have a hundred X zoom. And you could just zoom in on something like way in the distance, like wow, that's crazy. You can really zoom in on stuff. You're gonna be able to do that with your eyeballs.

• 2:48:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, a feature enhancement too.

• 2:48:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, you can be able to see people look way better than they really look. Just put a filter on. Everybody's beautiful.

• 2:48:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:54Speaker 02

  That's what Elon said on a tweet about it.

• 2:48:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so there it is. Um, Musk explained the blind sight device from Neuralink will enable even those who have lost both eyes and their optic nerve to see, provided the visual cortex is intact. It will even enable those who have been blind from birth to see for the first time. Here's the part that truly expands the horizons of what we think vision can be. At first, the vision will be low resolution, like Atari graphics, but eventually it has the potential to be better than natural vision and enable you to see in infrared, ultraviolet, or even radar wavelengths.

• 2:49:28Joe Rogan?

  Like Jordi La Forge, who's Jordi La Forge? Star Trek. Oh.

• 2:49:34Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that'd be a lot of information, wouldn't it?

• 2:49:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so what would you do with it all?

• 2:49:39Joe Rogan?

  Depends on what you're trying to do, you know?

• 2:49:42Speaker 01

  I guess if you're-

• 2:49:43Joe Rogan?

  If you're trying to find people hiding in the woods, you could be able to see them.

• 2:49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, or become a philo- Or even become a philosopher.

• 2:49:51Speaker 01

  I mean, with, with, with, you know, those enhanced processes, I mean, you could kind of, you know, direct it in any way you, that you'd like.

• 2:49:59Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that enhancing the human body like this is what the future of humanity holds?

• 2:50:07Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it's a stage we'll go through.

• 2:50:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 2:50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm not sure how far along it'll take us. It may just end in our demise.

• 2:50:15Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:50:16Speaker 01

  Um, but I think it's a stage that we obviously are passing into now.

• 2:50:20Joe Rogan?

  Some people think that's the mark of the beast from the Bible.

• 2:50:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:50:25Joe Rogan?

  You know, the people that get the chip.

• 2:50:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. The mark of the beast, isn't that on the forehead, or?

• 2:50:31Joe Rogan?

  Maybe that's the best spot for it.

• 2:50:32Speaker 01

  If you're six, six, six is the mark of the beast.

• 2:50:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:36Joe Rogan?

  But isn't that like open to interpretation? Like, what is it saying that, you've read the original one, what is the mark of the beast in the Hebrew Bible, the ancient?

• 2:50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's the Christian Bible, that's the book of Revelation, that's the New Testament.

• 2:50:49Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:50:49Speaker 01

  Which I have not read, amazingly enough.

• 2:50:53Joe Rogan?

  How come?

• 2:50:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'm pretty busy-

• 2:50:55Joe Rogan?

  Too busy learning ancient Hebrew?

• 2:50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I have enough to study, is the Hebrew Bible.

• 2:51:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:04Joe Rogan?

  It's, um, I mean, if you were gonna prophesize about the end of humanity, you'd probably prophesize about someone accepting some sort of a chip in their brain, and then everybody being forced to do it, some matrix-type situation. I could see why people would see that this, and it might be just the inevitable transition from biological to cyborg that we're probably gonna have to go through anyway.

• 2:51:30Speaker 01

  Well, the end of the world will, at least according to, you know, certain, you know, traditions, almost heralded by the Antichrist. And the Antichrist is the master of the lie.

• 2:51:44Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:51:44Speaker 01

  You know, so I think, you know, it's interesting to kind of use that perspective as a way of seeing, you know, where the future is heading.

• 2:51:55Joe Rogan?

  So the Antichrist is mass media?

• 2:51:58Speaker 01

  It's the master of the lie.

• 2:51:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, mass media is the master of the lie. Corporate media is the master of the lie. Corporate media is the Antichrist. Corporate media leads us into wars, justifies all kinds of crazy things that we do. We take over foreign governments and install our own puppet dictators and have everybody convinced it's a good thing.

• 2:52:17Speaker 01

  Well, the concept of, of the Antichrist is very old, you know, 2,000 years. You're like, you have Christ, you've got the Antichrist. So, you know, there's a God and there's a, you know, demiurge. Yeah, so it's a, it's a notion that has carried a lot of weight for a long time. Yeah, yeah, so you think that the media is the Antichrist?

• 2:52:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think-

• 2:52:42Speaker 01

  Or, you know, could be seen as?

• 2:52:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, you could see corporations as being in sort of a demonic state. So if you have an obligation to your shareholders to consistently provide higher and higher profits every quarter, and in order to do that, you have to do things that will cost people lives and destroy people's lives. Like, for instance, the Sackler family that got everybody hooked on opioids. Is that not demonic? That seems very demonic. And if I was under the throes of its spell, if I had gotten caught up in opioids, it would be very similar to being possessed by demons, having your life ruined by devils.

• 2:53:28Joe Rogan?

  Very similar, at least in result, right? Especially if you wind up committing crimes because you want to get your drugs, you wind up in jail, your life is over, maybe you destroyed other people's lives. It's very demonic in that way, and like in the result, in the end result. The end result is evil.

• 2:53:45Speaker 01

  Well, you know, look at the opium wars in China. Uh, you know, the British imported opium and there's a huge opium addiction problem in China. And, yeah, it was, you know, seen as a demonic scourge, you know, like a diabolical affliction.

• 2:54:02Joe Rogan?

  And in its result, it is demonic. It's just, we're, we're, we're like hung up on pitchfork, fork tail, horns, demon. You know, but, but in action. It's clearly demonstratably demonic.

• 2:54:19Speaker 01

  Well, demonic in what way?

• 2:54:22Joe Rogan?

  Okay, if you can lie about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. And you can justify an invasion of Iraq based on these clear lies. And then through that invasion. Five hundred thousand children starved to death because of embargoes. Countless people are killed that didn't have to be killed. Loss of at least a million lives? Over the course of the entire war and then the starving people afterwards? That's demonic, isn't it? For those people?

• 2:54:56Speaker 01

  Well, does that mean that you, you know, believe in the devil or Satan?

• 2:55:01Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what I believe in and what I don't believe in, because I haven't experienced it. Maybe if I experienced Satan, I'd be like, wow, Satan's real. But you're allowed to believe in God, but as soon as you start saying you believe in the devil, people look at you sideways. You know, like you could be the president and you can say, God bless our troops. Nobody bats an eye. But if you say, the problem with America is the devil. And we will find the devil and we will root him out of our, our world. And that's what we're gonna spend all your tax dollars on now.

• 2:55:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, in, like, you could, uh...

• 2:55:34Joe Rogan?

  I think good and evil are real things.

• 2:55:36Speaker 01

  You can pray for God to bless their troops and you could, you know, pray for protection from Satan's influence on the troops. If you were able to put the two, like, on...

• 2:55:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, as soon as you bring up Satan publicly. You lose all the secular people. Right? You can say, you can, you could praise God and people go, oh, it's in the fucking, you know, Pledge of Allegiance, it's normal.

• 2:56:01Speaker 01

  Whatever, yeah.

• 2:56:02Joe Rogan?

  But it wasn't even until, what was it, like Teddy Roosevelt? Like, who put Pledge of Allegiance in? It was when we were battling the communists. And that's when God got put into the Pledge of Allegiance.

• 2:56:14Speaker 01

  Well, you believe in good and evil. Like, I think what occurs is the more people do good, the stronger the force of good is. And the more that do evil, the stronger the force of evil is.

• 2:56:27Joe Rogan?

  And then you have the Holocaust.

• 2:56:28Speaker 01

  Well, you know, like, you know, how do you perceive that force? Is it just energy? Or do you anthropomorphize it into like a being that you can, you know, recognize and think about?

• 2:56:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:56:42Joe Rogan?

  But there's kind of no denying, at least from a recognizable... If you had to like look, how do you quantify it? How do you measure it? There's no denying that evil takes place. You know? Like, the... You could come up with any number of massacres throughout history. And you say that's an evil act.

• 2:57:05Speaker 01

  Uh, there's no question.

• 2:57:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:57:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:57:07Joe Rogan?

  So evil is a thing that's real.

• 2:57:09Speaker 01

  If there's good, there's evil.

• 2:57:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:57:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:11Joe Rogan?

  And then there have been many, many things that people have done. You're like, wow, good exists in the world. There is still good. So we know both those things are real things. We just don't know what's the root of them all. And is... Are there really angels and demons? Or are those the scapegoats for this bizarre dance of good and evil that just exists in the world?

• 2:57:32Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Well, if, you know, if it weren't, you know, for Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You know, there wouldn't be any perception of good and evil. It'd just be true or false. You know, which is, you know, the reason that Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden. Because in the beginning, it was, you know, they were living in a world of either, you know, truth or falsehood.

• 2:57:58Joe Rogan?

  You're right.

• 2:57:58Speaker 01

  And after eating the fruit of the difference between good and evil, they became opinionated. Oh, that's good, I like it. That's bad, I don't like it. But the issue of true or, you know, false got, you know, became, you know, muddled.

• 2:58:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:14Speaker 01

  And they no longer were fit inhabitants of, you know, the Garden of Eden, of paradise.

• 2:58:20Joe Rogan?

  What's your take on Lilith?

• 2:58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, Lilith. Well, there's no mention of her in the Bible, per se, but there's a lot of mention of her in the rabbinic literature that sprung up after the Bible. Yeah, yeah, the story is that, I think after Cain killed Abel, you know, that Adam, no, no, was it that after that? No, I think it was after Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, you know, that they stopped having sex. I'm sorry, Adam, you know, then was just sleeping, you know, with Lilith, and they spawned innumerable demons as a result of their relationship. Yeah, and after a while, Adam and Eve reconciled and, you know, they got things together again.

• 2:59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but Lilith, you know, plays a role in the understanding of evil in the world, like it's the result of the spawn of Lilith.

• 2:59:15Joe Rogan?

  What do you think Lilith was originally? If it was a thing?

• 2:59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. Well, that's called, you know, midrash. It's the explication of the Bible, you know, by the rabbis. You know, so this was called extra biblical. Yeah, and I've only looked into extra biblical stuff to a certain extent.

• 2:59:35Joe Rogan?

  What's the source of that stuff?

• 2:59:37Speaker 01

  The imagination, and I think, you know, the surrounding environment, societies, you know, culture, influenced by the Greeks, the Sumerians, the Akadians, the Hittites. You know, there's a lot of, you know, accumulation of other, you know, cultures onto interpreting, you know, the stories that occur in the text. You know, a lot of, you know, fanciful things, entertaining things, like, for example, Lilith is the, you know, source of, you know, demonic entities out there.

• 3:00:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I found out about Lilith like six months ago.

• 3:00:15Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 3:00:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'd never even heard about it. Do you remember when we found out about Lilith? Somebody brought it up on a show, right?

• 3:00:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, who brought it up, I'm wondering?

• 3:00:22Joe Rogan?

  I don't remember, but I was like, what? Who's Lilith?

• 3:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, was it Jordan Peterson?

• 3:00:25Joe Rogan?

  It could have been.

• 3:00:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, but because he's a keen student of the Bible.

• 3:00:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes, very possibly. I do not remember, though. But I remember thinking like, wow. Like, and then the original story, like, so when you're talking about the biblical translations of the Adam and Eve story that we're all accustomed to, it's all a watered-down sort of or a strange translated version of the ancient Hebrew. But you've read the actual ancient Hebrew version of it. Like, how, what did you get out of it? Like, what did you?

• 3:00:55Speaker 01

  Well, you know, most of the translations of the Hebrew Bible are quite good. Like, you know, the King James Version, it's very accurate. Yeah, it's a bit, you know, stilted.

• 3:01:05Joe Rogan?

  Is anything missing in the translation from when you read it in ancient Hebrew? Or do you think it's pretty clear?

• 3:01:10Speaker 01

  It's, you know, fairly one-to-one correspondence between the Hebrew words and the English translation. You know, certain things are interpreted through a Christian lens because the Christians wrote the King James Bible translation.

• 3:01:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, but, you know, the words and the grammar and the narratives, you know, they're pretty much accurate. Yeah, you know, they spent a lot of time working on painstaking, you know, translations, you know. So, you know, there was a responsibility, you know, to do it accurately.

• 3:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Imagine that story, like, trying to, like, pass that one down for a thousand years.

• 3:01:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01:49Joe Rogan?

  Like, yeah, so there was only two people. And then there was an apple.

• 3:01:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:01:53Joe Rogan?

  And a snake talked Eve into eating that apple, and everything got fucked.

• 3:01:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a very strange story, isn't it?

• 3:02:01Joe Rogan?

  Very strange story. What do you think it really was all about?

• 3:02:04Speaker 01

  I think there were two people named Adam and Eve.

• 3:02:07Joe Rogan?

  For real?

• 3:02:08Speaker 01

  Uh, as if they were real.

• 3:02:10Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, what do you mean by that?

• 3:02:12Speaker 01

  Well, if you imagine that there was an Adam and Eve and you visualize the garden they were in and the snake and their interactions, you know, there you have it.

• 3:02:22Joe Rogan?

  So you think the biblical interpretation is a literal recalling of actual events that took place?

• 3:02:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:02:30Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 3:02:31Speaker 01

  I don't think that. Well, you know, it's like if you smoke D M T and you enter into this world, it's true, it's overwhelmingly convincing, it's got its own, you know, laws, its own system, you know, things are, you know, things are regular, like certain things happen, certain interactions take place. Yeah, and you're there, you're convinced it's real and you interact with it to the best of your ability. You know, so I think, you know, that's the case with the narratives in, I'm in the text. It's, it's not, it, it isn't a matter of interpreting what they mean as much as understanding what happened.

• 3:03:12Joe Rogan?

  Boy, that's obscure. So it's not interpreting what they mean, but understanding what happened?

• 3:03:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, like, like, you know, what did the snake say to Eve?

• 3:03:22Joe Rogan?

  So a snake really talked to Eve, though?

• 3:03:24Speaker 01

  It was as if a snake talked to Eve.

• 3:03:26Joe Rogan?

  As if?

• 3:03:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:27Joe Rogan?

  So perhaps a psychedelic experience, perhaps an altered state of consciousness?

• 3:03:34Speaker 01

  No, I think it was a case of a woman standing near a tree and a snake coming up to her and saying certain things and they have a conversation.

• 3:03:43Joe Rogan?

  For real, for real?

• 3:03:45Speaker 01

  Hmm, as if it were real. Well, you know, the stories have been told so many times.

• 3:03:49Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's the problem.

• 3:03:51Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, they, they seem, well, if, if you...

• 3:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Seems like they're blaming everything on Eve too, which is like a little suspect. I like to hear Hurst out of it.

• 3:04:01Speaker 01

  Well, the one who got, you know, punished without even having a chance to explain himself was the snake. You know, so God asks Adam what happened and he asks Eve what happened and he just, you know, lays it on the snake.

• 3:04:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:04:16Joe Rogan?

  And the snake's like, I didn't tell her anything. I couldn't even talk. This lady wanted to eat that apple and she blamed me.

• 3:04:22Speaker 01

  Well, back then snakes could talk.

• 3:04:26Speaker 01

  Or in that world, snakes talk.

• 3:04:28Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 3:04:29Speaker 01

  Well, you know, they were the wisest of all the animals in the garden. So, you know, uh, they could speak.

• 3:04:36Joe Rogan?

  Right, but you, you speak of these things as if, like, we're talking about when you go to the zoo, the monkeys swing from the vines, it's normal. Snakes talk.

• 3:04:46Speaker 01

  Well, it's a bit of a paradox. Um, yeah, you're like, if, if you-

• 3:04:52Joe Rogan?

  Let me ask you this.

• 3:04:53Speaker 01

  You know, so if you, you know, treat those stories as if they were real, you're, you're opening yourself up to this universe of Adam and Eve were in the garden, then they had Cain and Abel. Uh, you know, Cain killed Abel, then, you know, Cain had children, and his, you know, children begot the seventy nations, and then there was a flood because mankind was bad. You know, Noah and his family survived. They all spoke one language afterwards. There was, on the tower, you know, there was Nimrod, there was Abraham, there was Isaac and Jacob. You know, so it's this world, uh, which, uh, seems to be quite coherent, quite consistent. It all, you know, ties together, it's quite consistent from book to book.

• 3:05:37Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, from narrative to narrative. You know, i- i- it is a different way of looking at the Bible. Um, it isn't, you know, dogma, like, you have to do this, or you have to do that. Or it isn't like a Jungian archetype, or a psychodynamic, you know, wish fulfillment. It's that this world that, you know, that is articulated, spelled out, uh, in a very ancient, very influential text.

• 3:06:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. So, is it also possible that something completely different took place? But that over time, and over a oral tradition of who knows how many hundreds of years, before they actually wrote it down, and then writing it down, that you're getting a version of the actual event that's very different than what really took place? But you think about it like the version in the scripture. And if you think about it in the version of scripture, are you, are you thinking about it like, as if this was an event as recorded? Or are you thinking this is a repr- representation of an archetype?

• 3:06:45Joe Rogan?

  Or some sort of moment in human history that they're trying to recollect and, and pass down?

• 3:06:54Speaker 01

  Well, if you consider...

• 3:06:56Joe Rogan?

  If that makes any sense.

• 3:06:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of, yeah, yeah. Well, if you consider the text to be prophetically received. Prophecy is communication between the divine and man. And the text was prophetically received. In fact, Philo of Alexandria, one of Terence McKenna's heroes, used to say, "The most accurate historians were the prophets." Because they heard it directly from the initiator of the event, the witness of the event, the one who could understand the event in the huge context. So it's a prophetically received text, which means it contains information received from a spiritual sort of level,

• 3:07:41Speaker 01

  which you would think is a universal field of sorts.

• 3:07:47Joe Rogan?

  How much have you ever paid attention, if at all, to any of that ancient Sumerian stuff? Like the Anunnaki and...

• 3:07:55Speaker 01

  Some, some. Yeah, I watched this really great documentary a few years back. Yeah, but I wouldn't consider myself as knowing much about it.

• 3:08:10Joe Rogan?

  Right. That, to me, is one of the weirder origin stories.

• 3:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so what is that origin story? If I recall, it's quite fascinating, but not the details.

• 3:08:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's multiple versions of it. First of all, the story of this, the fantastic story, is told by Zecharias Hitchens. So Zecharias Hitchens, who wrote The Twelfth Planet, and he wrote several other books. He was a biblical scholar and a linguist, and he spent a lot of time studying the ancient Sumerian text, the cuneiform. And what he believes is that it tells a story of an ancient relationship between a race of beings on a far distant planet that's in an elliptical orbit. And it comes near Earth every 3,600 years.

• 3:09:03Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:09:03Joe Rogan?

  They had engineered human beings out of lower primates. They had like accelerated our evolution. And um that all of what we know about the cosmos, all of what we know about, you know, like they have these detailed, I don't see the ancient tablets, that have a detailed map of the solar system from six thousand years ago.

• 3:09:28Speaker 01

  Right, okay.

• 3:09:29Joe Rogan?

  The sun in the center and all the moon, and they have these really enormous beings. And these enormous beings were supposed to be these things called the Anunnaki.

• 3:09:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:09:38Joe Rogan?

  And the literal translation is those from heaven to earth came.

• 3:09:41Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 3:09:42Joe Rogan?

  It's it's one of the weirder, like if you love a great science fiction version of the origin story of humans, it's the most fun one.

• 3:09:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it uh brings to mind, you know, the sons of God. Uh you know, the Bene Elohim, which occur in the story of uh the flood and Noah.

• 3:10:05Joe Rogan?

  The Nephilim too.

• 3:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the Nephilim, the Rephaim, they were huge, they were giants.

• 3:10:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, men of renown.

• 3:10:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:12Speaker 01

  And they intermarried or they had, you know, sex with the daughters of man. And you know, from them, you know, came a race.

• 3:10:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so that story is interpreted or perceived, you know, through the lens of the Hebrew Bible too.

• 3:10:24Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 3:10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there are, you know, that is a story in the text. You know, before the flood, uh is, you know, the Bene, uh the Bene Elohim, uh you know, come down to earth. They have have intercourse with, you know, the daughters of man. And out of, and and out of those relationships, you know, comes this, you know, race of giants.

• 3:10:51Joe Rogan?

  That's the most fun one.

• 3:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:10:53Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it?

• 3:10:54Speaker 01

  Well, they all got swept away in the flood. You know, so that's an interesting, you know, turn of events.

• 3:11:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you interpret the flood as the Younger Dryas impact theory, which created the flood.

• 3:11:06Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 3:11:07Joe Rogan?

  It's lines up.

• 3:11:07Speaker 01

  Right, right, that does line up.

• 3:11:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it lines up time wise, lines up with how it would go down. Yeah, just no evidence of giants. That's the only thing we're missing. If they found some giants.

• 3:11:18Speaker 01

  Well, in the meantime, you can assume that the giants were, you know, were real. And, and, and, you know, understand their origin, what they were like, you know, what they did, why they did it, what their results were.

• 3:11:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the bizarre thing is they, they've isolated this area outside of the Kuiper Belt, where they believe there's a large planetary body that might be multiple times larger than Earth that exists out there, right where you would imagine that this thing is. If there really is some sort of a planet.

• 3:11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:11:49Joe Rogan?

  That comes close to us with these super advanced beings.

• 3:11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I've heard of that, actually.

• 3:11:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That, it gets fun. Those get fun. Those, those I put away rational thought, just to pay attention to that stuff.

• 3:12:03Speaker 01

  Well, and if it were true, you know, then what?

• 3:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, if it were true, that sort of is what everyone's seeing when they're seeing UFOs and UAPs. They're probably visiting, or they probably are always here. They're probably watching to make sure we don't blow ourselves up, and probably assisting us on our journey of evolving past this primitive violent state that we currently find ourselves in.

• 3:12:32Speaker 01

  One would hope.

• 3:12:33Joe Rogan?

  One would hope.

• 3:12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:12:35Speaker 01

  Or they could be just, you know, doing the opposite, that they may be stirring up trouble.

• 3:12:41Joe Rogan?

  Maybe. Maybe they realize that people need trouble in order to get things done, in order to join the Galactic Federation. We have to figure out a way to get off the planet. The best way to get off the planet is develop superior weapons.

• 3:12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, kind of withdraw from the brink of the precipice.

• 3:12:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:12:59Speaker 01

  You know, that's the story of humanity, basically, isn't it?

• 3:13:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it is. Well, that's what's interesting about origin stories, right? And that's what's interesting about the biblical texts, is that there are these stories about things that have gone horribly wrong and influences, different things that happened to humanity, and different cataclysms and disasters. And these stories are shared through different cultures, which is really interesting. Like, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, there's a flood story. It's real similar.

• 3:13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, most of the, if...

• 3:13:32Speaker 01

  Most of the Middle East has got a flood story, an origin story.

• 3:13:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:40Joe Rogan?

  It just makes you wonder.

• 3:13:41Speaker 01

  Well, it makes you wonder if it's true.

• 3:13:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, that's why I think, like, you're studying one particular, um, you know, tradition in great detail can, you know, kind of, you know, help you, you know, kind of resonate with ones that are more universal.

• 3:13:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but that one is so common, wh- which is really interesting when you see the ev- like, the Younger Dryas impact theory evidence, like, of course, eleven thousand plus years ago, this is probably what happened, and the story gets passed around forever and ever, and everyone sort of remembers it, and...

• 3:14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, do you like Graham's documentaries?

• 3:14:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I do.

• 3:14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got the Netflix ones.

• 3:14:22Joe Rogan?

  They're fascinating.

• 3:14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:14:23Joe Rogan?

  I don't like all the anger that comes out of it, all the people that get mad at him, and the disparaging remarks, and how some archaeologists are, like, severely overreacted to it as if it's some horrific threat. Um, but it's fascinating, just the raw data about the size of these stones, their alignment with constellations, the fact that these things have been there for, at the very, at least, four thousand, five hundred years, some of them.

• 3:14:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:14:53Joe Rogan?

  And some of them even further than that, when you get to, like, Gobekli Tepe, like, to me, it's just incredible to imagine people living eleven thousand years ago, like, what is life like? What is that experience like? What is it like talking to people?

• 3:15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, those footprints around, you know, white sands are super cool. Yeah, that's not far from where I live.

• 3:15:12Joe Rogan?

  That's twenty-two thousand years.

• 3:15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, kids running around in the mud.

• 3:15:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

• 3:15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very, very interesting.

• 3:15:20Joe Rogan?

  Um, Altered States, this is your book.

• 3:15:23Speaker 01

  New book came out, well, it's gonna be coming out tomorrow. Oh, and I took your advice, and I narrated the audio.

• 3:15:29Joe Rogan?

  Yes!

• 3:15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:15:30Joe Rogan?

  Beautiful.

• 3:15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that comes out.

• 3:15:31Joe Rogan?

  I'm so happy when people do that.

• 3:15:32Speaker 01

  That came out this...

• 3:15:33Joe Rogan?

  December tenth, um, My Altered States.

• 3:15:37Joe Rogan?

  Um, and it is gonna be available everywhere?

• 3:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, Inter Traditions publishes it. Yeah, it's on all the usual resources.

• 3:15:46Joe Rogan?

  And you can go to rickstrassman.com and you can see this and everything else. Oh, and you can preorder it.

• 3:15:54Speaker 01

  Um, you can order it for me. I will inscribe it and I will sign it.

• 3:15:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, beautiful. Oh, that's awesome. That's very cool. That's only 20 bucks. All right, man.

• 3:16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, the book is illustrated as well. Yeah, there's some pretty funny stories in there and each of them has got at least, you know, one illustration.

• 3:16:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, cool. Oh, look at that. Who drew it?

• 3:16:12Speaker 01

  Uh, a friend from Birmingham, Alabama, named Merrily Chalice.

• 3:16:17Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. That's crazy.

• 3:16:19Speaker 01

  Uh, there's some, well, uh, there's one called Steak on Acid. You ever eat steak on acid?

• 3:16:25Joe Rogan?

  No, I have not. This is great. Oh, this is, these are cool drawings.

• 3:16:29Speaker 01

  Uh, they're great drawings, yeah.

• 3:16:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 3:16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:16:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, Rick, thank you so much. It's always great to see you.

• 3:16:35Speaker 01

  Thanks, Joe.

• 3:16:35Joe Rogan?

  For coming. I really enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun. All right, okay. Go buy the book, folks.

• 3:16:41Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody.