#189: Building Army Warriors - Sergeant Major of the Army Mike Weimer & CSM (R) Rick Merritt

What separates war fighting from a warrior? Is it skill? Is it experience? Or is it something deeper that only reveals itself when it matters most? From the Pentagon, Fran Racioppi https://www.linkedin.com/in/francisracioppijr/sat down with Sergeant Major of the Army Mike Weimer https://www.army.mil/leaders/sma#org-bio and retired Command Sergeant Major Rick Merritt https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rick-merritt-228ab016b/ to discuss what it truly means to build and sustain warriors in the United States Army. CSM Merritt spent over three decades on active duty, including 25 years in the 75th Ranger Regiment, serving in every enlisted leadership position from rifleman to Regimental Sergeant Major. He conducted over 1,500 combat operations under Joint Special Operations Command and served more than five years in combat task forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. His experience spans the full arc of modern warfare. Together with the SMA, we unpack into the difference between technical proficiency and true warrior mindset, what commitment looks like when compliance disappears, and how leaders enforce standards without eroding trust. We explore whether resilience is built over time or revealed under pressure, and how purpose sustains Soldiers when motivation begins to fade. As warfare becomes more technical and systems driven, the SMA is challenging the force to ensure technology enhances the warrior. Future conflict will demand innovation and the technological edge, but victory on the battlefield will still be decided by human judgment, character, and leadership. This is a conversation about standards, commitment, mental toughness, and the responsibility of leaders to hold the line…not just to engage in the business of war fighting, but to forge warriors ready to close with and destroy our nation’s adversaries. HIGHLIGHTS 0:00 Welcome to the Jedburgh Podcast4:40 Defining An Army Warrior14:02 Compliance to Commitment20:02 What Is The Army Culture?27:18 Why A Warrior Mindset Matters38:52 How to Lead the War fighting Profession QUOTES “I see a warrior as the reason why we do it.”“Make a difference with your presence. Otherwise, why are you there?”“A warrior is a way of life.”“Technology is not going to make up for the foundation.”“A warrior is one that is dedicated, disciplined, willing to go the extra mile, will fight for those left and right, and never quit.”“The best recruiters we have are our service members, our veterans.”“How much is enough of these key attributes to take a risk on you and bring you in and start developing the rest of that?”“There’s just some things about human beings that are going to be done on an individual’s basic timeline in life.”“It’s not normal for this generation.”“Combat readiness is a way of life.”“Although I took the uniform off, my oath didn’t go away.”“The guys on my team know that they’re in the right spot with the right people, with the right culture.”“You’re consecrated into this culture that I got to find when I retire.” “What makes that culture is character and character development.”“That probably makes the difference in the world is where our NCO core is compared to other countries.”“I’m a firm believer that the noncommissioned officer is the keeper of the culture.”“I think that was our biggest challenge in Vietnam.”“This profession, we hand you a machete and we say ‘Take that path.’”“Grit comes through hardship.”“At the end of the day, guys got to go on the ground.”“We’re struggling a little bit in that space.”“There’s no time limit on honorable service.”“What is better than being a company commander?”“Don’t be a pain in the ass. Be value added.”“This is a journey, not a destination.”“A legend is nothing but a man or woman who spent their life surrounding themselves with people better than them.” Follow the Jedburgh Podcast https://www.instagram.com/jedburghpodcast/ and the Green Beret Foundation https://www.instagram.com/greenberetfoundation/ on social media. Listen on your favorite podcast platform https://pod.link/1558608802, read on our website https://greenberetfoundation.org/the-jedburgh-podcast/, and watch the full video version on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@jedburghpodcast as we show why America must continue to lead from the front, no matter the challenge.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Fran Racioppi?

  What separates warfighting from a warrior? Is it skill? Is it experience? Or is it something deeper that only reveals itself when it matters most? From the Pentagon, I sat down with Sergeant Major of the Army Mike Weimer and retired Command Sergeant Major Rick Merritt to discuss what it truly means to build and sustain warriors in the United States Army. Sergeant Major Merritt spent nearly 36 years on active duty, including 25 years in the 75th Ranger Regiment, serving in every enlisted leadership position from rifleman to regimental sergeant major. He conducted over 1,500 combat operations under Joint Special Operations Command and served more than five years in combat task forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. His experience spans the full arc of modern warfare.

• 0:48Fran Racioppi?

  Together with the SMA, we unpacked the difference between technical proficiency and a true warrior mindset, what commitment looks like when compliance disappears, and how leaders enforce standards without eroding trust. We explore whether resilience is built over time or revealed under pressure, and how purpose sustains soldiers when motivation begins to fade. As warfare becomes more technical and systems-driven, the SMA is challenging the force to ensure technology enhances the warrior. Future conflict will demand innovation and a technological edge, but victory on the battlefield will still be decided by human judgment, character, and leadership. This is a conversation about standards, commitment, mental toughness, and the responsibility of leaders to hold the line.

• 1:32Fran Racioppi?

  Not just to engage in the business of warfighting, but to forge warriors ready to close with and destroy our nation's adversaries at any time, anywhere. Follow the Jedburgh Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on social media. Listen on your favorite podcast platform. Read on our website and watch the full video version on YouTube as we show you why America must continue to lead from the front no matter the challenge.

• 1:56Fran Racioppi?

  Welcome to the Jedburgh Podcast and thanks for having us back in the Pentagon.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like this. It's a bit of a reoccurring theme here. A little different this time though because we got a legend with us, but it's good to have you back.

• 2:07Fran Racioppi?

  We've been fortunate to be able to come in here so many times and we were joking earlier that the first time we came there was like 12 people in the room. The second time there was six, then there was three and now we're down to one. So we're doing something right and they're getting set up where they're trusting our ability. Yeah, yeah, space. But there's so many things that are happening right now in the Army. We're seeing so much of the messaging coming out about transformation, modernization, investing in the next generation of soldiers. SMA, we spent a long time. It's been now, I think like a year and a half, but you're still a YouTube sensation on the Jedburgh Podcast. But we spent a long time talking about warfighting and what does warfighting mean? Why does the Army have to be built of warfighters? And now we're going to talk about what does it mean to be

• 2:50Fran Racioppi?

  a warrior? And as you mentioned, we've brought one of the Army's historic Hall of Fame warriors here to sit with us and Sergeant Major Rick Merritt. I'll go through it quickly.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Go for it.

• 3:02Fran Racioppi?

  And you know, don't blush, but 25 years in 75th Ranger Regiment, 36 years in the Army, 14th Regimental Sergeant Major, the 75th, multiple tours. We have like 40 tours to Iraq and Afghanistan.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  I do them by months because tours, they differ for everybody. 61 in combat.

• 3:20Fran Racioppi?

  61 in combat. So Division Command Sergeant Major for the 10th Mountain Division. So it was like to live up in the snow up there. Distinguished member of the 75th Ranger Regiment and the Warrior Legends Hall of Fame as well up at 10th Mountain Division and the Army Ranger Hall of Fame and then honorary Sergeant Major of the Army in October 2025. And you're the 75th Ranger Regiment Association President. So thank you Sergeant Major for your service. Thanks for joining us today. And when I told people we were coming here to sit down with you, they said, oh, there you go. That's the conversation we got to have.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Well, I'll just start off by laying my thoughts of this here and that is Sergeant Major, we served some in combat together.

• 3:57Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Under the higher command on that there. And I will say nothing ruins a good war story like an eyewitness.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  It's true. That's true. But for this topic, there was no doubt in my mind. As a matter of fact, I'll just, I'll just fess up. When I called Rick and said, hey, we want you to be the next honorary sergeant major in the army. First off, he didn't, he downplayed it because he's like, are you sure? Like, there's nobody else. Because if you're not, if you don't know Rick, the last thing he wants to do is talk about himself. It's never about himself, which is a trait, I think, of a warrior. We'll talk about that a little bit more today. But with this topic, this was the right person to bring on, because you have to have credibility in this profession to really, I think, dive deep in this subject.

• 4:41Fran Racioppi?

  Well, let's start there. We'll start, you start, Major. What's a warrior?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  I see a warrior, to me, is the reason why we do it. There's been so much conversations and here are different ways, warrior versus warfighter. In some ways, to me, they're, they're hand in hand. But a warrior can be an everyday warrior. You could be a warrior at any job you do. You could be a warrior fighting sickness on there. But to be a warrior in combat is a whole different level. To me, that's where the warfighter of it comes in. So when we talk about the warrior, we're looking at our ethics and our ethos and why we're the warrior, why we won't quit, why we'll fight harder, what it means for our values and morals has been ingrained with us before we ever joined the military and strengthened throughout our military careers. And for myself,

• 5:30Speaker 02

  even to give back, that continues on that after retirement. As I, I took off the uniform, but my warrior attitude and values didn't change with that. So truly, I think what makes a warrior is a more of that. Now, the functional part of it, I see that's expertise, that's where the warfighter comes in. Because all that, doing teamwork, where I see a warrior, we think of Genghis Khan. We look back at folks like Shogun, Robert Rogers, all through history on that. And to really, I see an adaptive warrior, adaptive warfighter in today's complex world, be able to Think on your feet, make the right decision the first time, make a difference with your presence.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Where you are, you make a difference, whether that's at the breach, at the foothold, where it could be. So make a difference with your presence, otherwise, why are you there? And that's what warriors do so well on that, to make that difference because they were there. So get a deep conversation, talk forever on that. But all that talking, really the warrior, it happens in a split second of a firefight when that first round is fired.

• 6:38Fran Racioppi?

  Which takes years to get you to that point. S M A, when we think about this concept of warrior and then how it plays into the concept of a war fighter, from your position, leading the army and being the personnel manager, you know, you're in charge of training, you're running what it looks like to define and become a warrior of what the US Army, the Department of War, what this country needs for the next battlefield, which we could argue and we've talked about we're in now. What is that warrior? What does that warrior look like to you?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the way, again, and the complex, it's a complex conversation, right? It goes back, geez, thousands of years. I mean, I don't know if it's not the longest standing profession, but the profession of arms has got to be right close to the top. And you know, we're in the war fighting business and we're war fighters. But a warrior is a way of life. That's how I kind of separate them, to be honest with you. Cause he's spot on, I mean, Rick is spot on, like it's a mindset that's associated with not so much what you do, more in how you do it and the dedication and the selflessness and the sacrifice.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  The things that people don't understand why in the world you go that extra mile. So that's kind of how I separate it. Now, when you associate with the fight we have today, right now, and I, spot on, it's today, it's not a tomorrow fight. It's the fight we have today. You can't lose that. Because you're going to have all this technology. Technology's not going to make up for that. You know how I feel about this. But if you have that as your foundation, and I think that's key in leaders, and we'll maybe talk a little bit about that here. What's the difference between a senior non-commissioned officer that's gone past 20 years? Oh, that's a warrior. Because they should have retired already. And so now you add all that technology? Now you add all that generative AI and all these fancy things?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Wow. You talk about lethality that we haven't seen in the history of war fighting. So that's why I get excited about the, you start with the basics, the who you are, why you do what you do. And then you talent manage people that are extra committed at the senior levels, which is why I say it's a way of life.

• 8:54Fran Racioppi?

  What are the traits? And you're talking a lot about bringing somebody in, or we'll talk about compliance to commitment here in a second. But you're talking about bringing somebody in. When we look at, and you're both experts in recruitment, assessment and development, because at the end of the day, that's what we got to do with all of our recruits, whether they're coming into the army, or they're going to Ranger Regiment, or they're going to Special Forces Regiment. We're going to recruit them, we're going to assess them, and we're going to select. So when we think about, I need a warrior. At the most foundational level, we're in the business of developing soldiers first. What are the traits that we're looking for in a warrior? Go for it, Rick.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  I look at those traits in a warrior as one that is dedicated, disciplined, willing to go the extra mile, will fight for those who's left and right, never quit. We put all those words in creeds. And I have a multitude of creeds, from Soldiers Creed, the NCO Creed, to my Ranger Creed. And if you look at them, that is in those creeds, those words in there, that's more than being taught. As he said, it's got to be a way of life ingrained in you to where not only do you believe it at first because it's the rules and you have to do it, but then the commitment coming in when you understand why, and you become that reason and use it in your own words and actions of that. So we, I'll take a look in the regiment and we looked at all of our.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Every man in the regiment one time did a 600 questions, questionnaires. We were starting an RASP program that we have now for eight weeks and to get the commonality across that for us to be able to put those in words and know for a recruit, what are we looking for in there and to go across America and find them. SMA, we were talking earlier, I was 23 years old, been a paramedic and a firefighter, played a lot of sports growing up with families. Most of them went into the NCAA with me being a low silhouette, thought maybe the army was a better profession. You know, look, I had Bill Nwaba, almost seven foot, couple of hearts as talking to him and he's like, hey, the NFL wants me. I'm like,

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Oh, for the Pittsburgh Steelers?

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Sir, look at you. You've already got two Purple Hearts. Who's anybody going to shoot when you come over that hill? You first on that. Do your family a favor and go in the NFL. I didn't know he would make it like he did. Then I went back and said, and if you make it, don't tell them you're a hero on the grid. I'm, you're telling the heroes overseas, killing bad guys. And years later, he did that. But where do we find those guys? We find them in America, the backyards, cities across there. So look for those traits in that. But the best recruiters we have is our service members, our veterans, whether they did three years or 30 years. And the way we treat them when they come in, even more importantly, I see is the way that we treat them when we get out. They did a big

• 11:45Speaker 02

  ceremony for me when I retired. I'm like, why can't I do a ceremony for the young man that did four years and was a team leader and thought hard and two Purple Hearts as he's going out is that is our greatest recruiters across America in all levels there is the, our veterans and we use them across that.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Man, there's a lot there, Rick, but I will tell you, there's two types of folks that you're assessing, if you will, right? There's folks that have been doing it for a while, right? And then there's your off your street folks, right? And the Ranger Regiment does this well in both categories. You got your option 40 folks and then you've got your folks that are already in the military that are going to come and be assessed either as an NCO or an officer for a first tour or a second tour. And we do it in SF also, right? Off the street. When you're looking for that young, new recruit, I would say you're looking for pieces of key attributes.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  That you can build on. If you're looking for a completed human being that has everything already figured out, you're not going to find that recruit, right? And so the, the science and the art to it is how much is enough of these key attributes I see to take a risk on you and bring you in and start developing the rest of that, right? If you compromise on any, you know, the op psychs would tell you, there's a few things you don't compromise on. You want an immoral person in your formation, then compromise on that. No, you wouldn't do that, right? But if you got somebody that won't quit, but maybe isn't a genius with an IQ, but has enough of the intelligence, I can work with that. I might even turn that into a phenomenal warrior, right?

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Now, if you're Sergeant First Class Merritt and you're coming back into the Ranger Regiment, I'm going to assess you differently because now I'm expecting more out of you. And so there's different ways to do it. And there is science to it, but I do appreciate, I probably, I'll say his name, Ryan. He's retired op psych for almost 30 years in the SOF community, operation psychologist. He would tell you, there's still art because we're still human beings. And that 23-year-old Rick Merritt, 22-year-old Mike Weimer, I had a lot of reps and sets in life that are hard to evaluate until you get me in the formation and start testing me.

• 14:02Fran Racioppi?

  You said that being a warrior is a way of life.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:05Fran Racioppi?

  One of the concepts that we've talked in all of our conversations is about compliance to commitment. This idea that you come into the army and you're immediately indoctrinated and you're holding your bag over your head because they told you to. And they're going to yell at you some more unless you do it and you extend your arms. And then eventually you hold the bag over your head because it's the right thing to do and that's what you know. How does the concept of create, when you're a soldier and you're making this transition from compliance to commitment and being a warrior becomes your foundation, becomes your way of life over time? How does that create the warrior that we need in the US?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's a little different for everybody because each one of us is on our own journey. And I know we get in a hurry to try to, how do we replicate this? And so we can scale it and we're infatuated with all that. And we're going to collect all this data. There's just some things about human beings that are going to be done on an individual's basic timeline in life, right? Everybody's chapters are going to close and open a new one in different seasons in their life. And so I think you can't lose that, right? Generative AI is not going to figure that out for us. But I will tell you that troopers these days versus trooper when I came in as a new trooper, the sooner you take the time to explain the why to them, oh, they move from compliant to committed a lot faster. My generation, I held the bag over my head.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  I, I used to say, just shut up in color, be seen, don't be heard. I wanted to be in the army. I wanted to be a soldier because my father was in the, you know, army. And so I didn't need the why. Well, that faded as I became an NCO and I started to want to know the why. We do a much better job these days, starting out from literally the time you take your oath for the first time, you know, I'm passionate about oath. That's why it's in the blue book. What does that oath mean? Who am I swearing an oath to? What am I swearing an oath for? What is this all about? All the way to when you get to your first duty station and you're being asked to do some hard, uncomfortable things. Lethal Eagle, you go to the field for 40 days with the 101st right now at Fort Campbell. Sounds normal to us because we grew up in that.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  It's not normal for this generation. Well, if you're compliant, that's a hard thing to understand why you're doing that. But if you're committed, you're like, Roger that. Let's build the training, build some objectives. Let's get after this. So I would tell you, the goal for us, when we develop an NCOs, from what happens inside the company COF to what happens at PME, is to get troopers to understand what it means to be part of this profession and the responsibility you have as a non-commissioned officer corps. And then you quickly move to that committed space. Would you agree, Rick?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  I agree, and I can say in the compliance to where it comes to commitment for me, it was powerful when I realized that I crossed that threshold. Starting out, coming in 23 years old, I've been a paramedic and a firefighter, come from military family. My baby brothers were already in, officer, and I was catching up with them. Came in the army for two years to serve, then go back to my civil service job. But after one year, I'm like, they're paying me to do this? And I ran this there for 35 more. But I look where I started in Germany, and under compliance, we had a SQT test. My roommate and I, we got 100 on it. Not because we were wanting to make sure that we were well-trained for the unit in

• 17:30Speaker 02

  the fight against the Russians there in the Cold War, but that was more for our personal values and morals and how we were brought up on that EIB. It was a private pass every event. I came in under two hours on the PT test, or excuse me, the road march, and it was more under, again, for that same reason, competitive on that there. But then, from there, the starting of the 3rd Ranger Battalion, I go to the Ranger Regiment. And now I'm in a unit where that was the norm across that. So what I was doing before under commitment, I'm seeing like, hey, this unit strives more on that there. And then it crossed over where it became a commitment into that. And that was powerful to see it then, understood the big picture of what that meant to do

• 18:15Speaker 02

  that. And it was to make sure that for the unit and the mission, and I've called today, could you keep going on to that, is I talk a lot across the Army on combat readiness is a way of life. It's in everything you do. Any combat that we succeed on started long before we ever showed up in combat. I say for many of us, it started long before we wore that uniform. As I often see folks and say, you were a soldier, you're a Ranger, well, your mom could have told you that when you were 13 years old. It wasn't until, you know, a cadre told you that. To realize that and see it is powerful. And then as we have seen leaders convey that, and the tools we use to get the soldiers to see that and take that on.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Their own as well. And like you said, we talked about a third level of that commitment of staying in thirty six years in the army. I would have done fifty if they allowed me to, but although I took a uniform off, my oath didn't go away on that dare in the willingness to give back. On that, for one reason, I think I stayed committed to that because I couldn't change who I am on that. We say some soldiers struggle after retirement or maybe ETS of going out to the civilian world on that. I think because maybe they're trying to change who they are instead of be that warrior and that warrior spirit and use it to be successful. For whatever you want to be in.

• 19:39Fran Racioppi?

  Whatever that next thing is.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  And I want to try to enhance and that warrior spirit on that from my across America and all small towns, big cities across there. Doctors, lawyers, judges, teachers, coaches, politicians across to make America great through veterans. And using that warrior spirit is very powerful.

• 20:00Fran Racioppi?

  That's good. That's good, Rick. I want to ask about culture because some of what you're talking about is is culture. Because the culture becomes ingrained in you. I run FR six, a security integration company. We do CCTV access control, fire alarms, security consultancy. We're the majority SF guys. We got a couple of Marines. They carry the bags and.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  So you try to get me in trouble.

• 20:23Fran Racioppi?

  I'm not taking it.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  To the lab. Carlos is going to call me on. I'm not saying I'm not taking it.

• 20:27Fran Racioppi?

  I've met him. We got to have him on.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  He's a good dude.

• 20:29Fran Racioppi?

  But and we and we've got a few other folks who are absolute high performers coming from their various backgrounds. And I got, we recently brought back a guy who got out a couple of years ago out of out of tenth group. Went and did something else, mostly because it was closer to his house and then recently came back a couple of weeks ago. Was talking to him yesterday and he said, you know what, man, I feel more alive than I have in the last two years.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  It's a real thing.

• 20:53Fran Racioppi?

  I was with you before. I feel like I'm back on a team again.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:57Fran Racioppi?

  And yesterday, I'm not going to lie, with an absolute disaster, disaster of a day, like everything that could have gone wrong, starting from six AM went wrong until I. Including the four hour delay I had here flying from New York I could have driven, but every single thing, but I went to bed last night and was like. This was a good day because the guys on my team know that they're in the right spot with the right people with the right culture. When we talk about being a warrior, there's an evolution of the culture.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:25Fran Racioppi?

  That has to happen. We talked about culture before. We've seen across the Department of War. We've seen the chief, we've seen the secretary talk a lot about the evolution of culture. You've spoken tremendously about culture. How does the idea of becoming warriors from the foundational level through senior leadership change the culture of the army?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, Rick alluded to it a little bit, the compliant to the committed. And then what's that next thing? Because you refuse to not be part of that culture, regardless of uniform on or uniform off, doesn't matter, but doesn't matter. I've started to talk about it's compliance, commitment to consecration. The 35 year, the 30 plus year, the teammates that we have that frankly are fiscally irresponsible for continuing to do this as non-commissioned officers because we're in high demand in the civilian community right now because of all the reps and sets in the, in the level of responsibility, non-commissioned officers have evolved to after 250 years, right? We didn't start this way.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  I mean, you can look back at 65 and 75 and 2026. And what Sergeant Major, senior Sergeant Majors do today with 30 years of service? And it's, it's the envy of the world, to be honest with you, and part of what makes our army so stinking special. But what is that? That is different. Culture is a big part of that. And that's why I've started to say it's almost like you're consecrated into this culture that I gotta find when I retire. I have to find it. Trust me, my wife knows I have to find it and it won't be defined by a paycheck. She would be mad at me if I didn't say the paycheck's not going to matter, but it's not going to be defined by that. I will absolutely less money for the right

• 23:15Speaker 01

  culture. The thing I like about it, and I know Rick said he would have done 50. You know why? Because he became the keeper of the culture as a senior non-commissioned officer, because he was consecrated by it and he would accept nothing else but the highest standard of culture, right? It's not perfect, but you're striving for that excellence that we've talked about in the past. But I think that's the journey that so many sergeant majors that go 30 years and beyond, they don't think about it that way. That's why I wanted to talk about it a little bit, but it's actually who we become.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd like to segue into that culture. Could be hearing a lot, culture, culture, culture. And there can be a bad culture, and we've seen some of them before. But to me, I see what makes that culture, that unit culture on that there and there is really character and character development. I feel you cannot talk about culture without character development. And if you look at a unit who strives more on the individual character, building that not only by holding their self accountable in their decisions, their actions, and the way they think, holding their self accountable, and then building that culture into their men and women on that

• 24:31Speaker 02

  there, that character and build on that strong character, because it takes strong individual character to make unit culture. Got to go hand in hand. And especially to have the culture that we need for the military on that and powerful on that to do just that. And with that ingrained and making a warrior on that to they know how to think and what not to think. That's probably the difference we saw over the decades and centuries of our military with a non-commissioned officer on how to think. And then you look an adaptive warfighter and warrior on that adapted to be able to get it right the first time in a quick moment on that there. And that's instinctively, but that's take a lot of repetition and putting yourself in situations and the character building

• 25:16Speaker 02

  To make that happen. So, uh, not only is that character, that's character for a nation and built, and I feel the probably the greatest thing our army has ever done for our nation over 250 years, we talked pre-revolutionary and into there is a culture that we bring out and we still need that today across our nation on there.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, even though you're trying to keep it in your company, you're still, your circles touch other circles and it becomes contagious. It really does.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  I see evidence of that in the regiment, like call nearship factory, the general officers in positions, the sergeant majors in positions, the character they learned there and taking it out from the Pentagon and to our divisions, corps and other formations on that to bring that into there and.

• 26:03Fran Racioppi?

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• 26:35Speaker 01

  It's the essence of the Abrams Charter. It really is. I mean, having read it numerous times, every version of it to include, I don't know, maybe an updated version in the future, but it's woven in between every one of the lines about the original Abrams Charter is that culture right there. And it's, in the back of the day, we call it warfighters and leaders of character. West Point, it's leaders of character. I mean, it is beat into the USMA grads. When they commission, they know, they can have a conversation about that without even thinking twice, right? That wasn't my ROTC experience when I was a cadet for a little while at the Ohio State. I'm not saying we didn't discuss it, but the ROTC cadet part was part time.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  It's not in places like that because the culture, uh, the character is so important to being committed to the culture. So you're spot on, right? You both brought up.

• 27:28Fran Racioppi?

  The role of the NCO. The story I told you about my company yesterday, I'll have you know, I'm the only former officer in my company. And that comment came from a retired E9.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Are you pretty successful right now?

• 27:41Fran Racioppi?

  We're very successful.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Don't change that model.

• 27:43Fran Racioppi?

  We have all SF NCOs and one guy who thinks he knows what he's talking about, but knows the least. That's me. So, but I want to ask you about the role of the officer and the role of the NCO in the development of number one, culture and number two, that warrior mindset, because they are different.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  I'll take a look at where I've seen that happen within our army in my timeframe as well, is looking at what we know today as doctrinally as mission command. We were doing mission command for years. We just didn't have a name for it. Probably one of my commanders that most for it, I saw their Paula camera, just recently retired four star was using mission command because he knew that we knew his commander's intent and two levels up. And then to trust and giving me the tools of discipline to follow his mission command on there and my ways to do it across there was powerful on that. I see levels on that. So I look at the officers that we, Centres had the NCO Corps and that probably makes

• 28:47Speaker 02

  the difference in the world is where our NCO Corps is compared to other countries. And I look a lot of time with Korea, NCO Corps that's 75 years old. Their light years compared to where we were at 75 years in that there. But of course they've had us coach and mentoring as well on that. But that culture doesn't change overnight on that. It's got to be an investment. But I see the officers hold we NCOs accountable and then give us the tools and we earn their trust to carry on. And the more that they trust us and we're able to do that, it really expands beyond that. So the commissioned officer definitely has a big role in that by I say holding us accountable to do that.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm passionate about this topic. We could do a whole podcast on this one, but the command team relationship, if you will. It's key, right? The commander, he or she has all that authority. Like, they are the commander. I used to remind young troop commanders, you're the commander. You're also the newest person in this troop, the least experienced. Do not let anybody walk all over you. You were hired for a reason. You've made it. Now you have to hold your guns, use your gut, and be that commander. And holy cow, if I worked for some phenomenal commanders, some of them you know. Rick knows them also, but that was because they were the commander and they figured out how to empower those NCOs, hold us accountable.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Because sometimes Mike Weimer could have some crazy ideas about how to solve some problems, right? But I got hired to be a problem solver and winning matters, right? But I also need guidance. I need coached. I need held accountable. But I'm a firm believer that the non-commissioned officer is the keeper of the culture. And I'm passionate about this because I've spent almost 30 years inside a SOF culture, 20 years inside a very small organization. That officers come and go, but the NCO stays. And so when there's a culture issue, I did not blame the officer. We looked in the mirror. I was very hard on ourselves. And that's where I came to appreciate the importance of not compromising on talent management

• 30:59Speaker 01

  of senior non-commissioned officers. Because one leadership change and compromise on that, back to character. Really, we didn't even talk about that. I'm so glad you brought that up. And it can affect the entire culture. And I saw that in a very closed organization. And very few things change in those closed. It's almost a controlled, right? And very changed. And so then you extrapolate that to the whole army that, you know, I'm serving in now and Rick finished his career with. And, you know, we talk about cohesive teams, yet we PCS so often. And we only get 15 months as commanders or command sergeant majors. And so that's one of the reasons why we've been working on stabilizing people, letting them stay in places longer.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  So, because once you're cohesive, culture tends to itself. Like we'll hold each other accountable because we have a relationship. But when we're moving people around all the time and swapping leaders in and out all the time, we don't actually have the relationship to hold each other accountable. So culture doesn't always tend to itself. And so, I mean, this one, there's so much written on this one, and I appreciate academics, but I appreciate folks that have actually lived it, tended to it, good and bad, when it comes to who should you study in the topic of culture?

• 32:15Fran Racioppi?

  Well, it becomes transactional. Relationships become transactional. And when relationships become transactional, whether you're in the military, or you're in business, or even in your family, then it's very difficult to really get things done. Because people want to do things with people they like. We talk about this all the time in my company. You have to be a person that has a personal relationship with someone else. Companies don't give work to people they don't know.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:50Fran Racioppi?

  By default, companies they don't know. And people don't hold others accountable that they don't have a personal relationship.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  And I'll share an anecdote with that exactly there, as we were discussing earlier. And I feel under some of Weimar's time here, probably a strategic change they made that greatly affected combat readiness on the peninsula of Korea, is I had one-year assignments there, and the turnover of 12%, 10 to 12% every month, the leader and lead didn't know each other.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  And so tough.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Very tough. And I came from a unit where you could stay as long as you were performing and needed, you were there on that. And that was tough on us. I look back and poking a former Ranger buddy of mine, who was a pretty high command in the Army of, you want to be known as a guy who lost that Korean War, keep up your one-year assignments. I think that was our biggest challenge in Vietnam, where the leader and lead didn't know each other. And we talked about that character development to make unit culture and the trust and how that builds. There was so much turnover every month. I don't think they ever had the opportunity to do that. And I'd ask him, sir, with your time in combat in Afghanistan, Rock, how would you like to be having your units then? 12% turnover every month from company commanders, first sergeant, platoon sergeants on that.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Very powerful now that you see they stopped that.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  And now with the longer assignments like that at Rest of the Army. Of course, conditions change. It's not your mom and dad's Korea anymore. But that was my number one challenge to combat readiness there. And probably the greatest improvement in my lifetime since Armistice started to help combat readiness on that peninsula.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  So pull that thread a little bit. We go back to where we started with compliance to commitment. Imagine if you have leaders that aren't actually even committed. And so now they don't even understand that, hey, we don't have a choice. It's going to be disruptive. I got to pull you out early. I got to PCS you because I need you in Korea. And so now I show up in Korea and I'm a compliant leader. I'm also responsible for the culture. I'm also responsible to build real relationships, hold people accountable, be the standard, enforce the standard, you know, demonstrate discipline. So you can see how you go back to if people don't understand the why, what it means to be part of this profession, you took an oath, you are different. And they're not committed to the mission, which by the way,

• 35:11Speaker 01

  this profession is not the paved path. This profession, we hand you a machete and we say, take that path. And you're like, what path? I don't see the path there. And you're like, that's right. Because in this profession, you're going to cut your own path. We're going to assist you. We'll help you sharpen the machete. We'll give you the tools. We're going to give you some awesome teammates. But that's this profession, right? This is not an easy profession. And I don't think we talk about that enough either sometimes. Everything in society now is about how to make life easier. No, like grit comes through hardship. Grit comes through putting in the time. You go back to what are we looking for in young Ricks and young Mikes? We're looking for people that kind of embrace the hard stuff.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  That's a little bit different in a million person army, you know, from cyber warriors to, you know, mechanics, to crew chiefs, to cooks, to the whole thing. That's not a one size fits all. But there's some key specialties in our army to where that that's gotta be their story. And and then you come to love it. Like, I don't know about you, and you do have some legendary stories. But I had to watch myself because if it wasn't hard enough, it didn't suck enough. And I didn't feel like we were training hard enough, right? And there is a point of diminishing results, right? So you gotta balance that stuff out. But man, you create that kind of a culture with an with people that have committed to that.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Oh, man, give me whatever technology you want, because now I'm gonna be unstoppable.

• 36:40Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, at the end of the day, our army is a people business. And this is a people business. And we can talk, as you mentioned, you talk about the technology all day long. We have the greatest technology in the world. We can do. I mean, we won't talk about it in in any sort of detail here because of where we are. But look at the operation in Venezuela. At the end of the day, we all the technology in war, we still had a guy's gotta go on the ground. And this is a human.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  That was centric.

• 37:03Fran Racioppi?

  That was people. People, people did that. People controlled the technology from the space to the ground. And people had to put boots on the ground. Highly trained warriors who were proficient in their craft, who have spent decades working together. That wasn't a group that just got thrown together at the last minute and said, hey, tomorrow you're gonna go out there and you're gonna do something amazing. That is decades of experience and trust to be able to get something like that done. But to your point, SMA, about the whole army, that took a whole army to be able to do that. Because you can't, it's not just the guys, it's who on the ground. It's not just the helicopters. It's not just the air force.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  It's a whole joint force.

• 37:48Fran Racioppi?

  That is a whole higher military.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:51Fran Racioppi?

  That puts people on the X to do something like that. And that's what this nation's capable of when we have the resolve and we have the people who are willing to do it.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  That's a little bit what Rick was talking about. Like, it's bigger than just the army. It's there's part of the nation. There was interagency. I mean, that was a whole government effort to be successful in that.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  You know, all echelons, all that there from the IT world to my intel folks, all across that, the logistician. Joint World, I had CB Reserve Company on there. And then I look and see what they did for their day job. I build hotels, I build cities. Yeah, yeah. And you can make me a jock overnight.

• 38:28Fran Racioppi?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  On there.

• 38:29Fran Racioppi?

  A man, people at power plants, you're like, what? You do what in your day job? Pretty amazing.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  I'm down in Salerno, my guardsman, he's like, well, I'm the city mayor. I'm the police chief back in this county. I'm like, okay, you could be my commandant of the amp here on that. Seeing that talent across that, I'm looking at helicopter pilots, like, what are you doing in your daytime? I'm a heart surgeon. What are you doing flying? That's what I do for fun, just seeing that talent management, this thing is the other piece that we do a lot. And yes, the year talent management came from headquarters, the HRC across that. There's really the NCO, of course, there's so much more involved in talent management as we're moving people in two places up, what we see them doing next. I look at my Ranger buddy, Star Major Norton, and why he's in this office.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  It's not for what he's doing at Pentagon, it's probably for the next job that he will do is seeing talent management across that as well.

• 39:23Fran Racioppi?

  When you look at the leadership and you've both served at all echelons of leadership now, both whether that be in in command or even at the tactical level. I mean, you're soldier to team leader, to squad leader and up. How important is it right now for our leaders? And I think I'll ask primarily about our tactical and operational level leaders, probably about that, the company and field grade officers to understand the magnitude of their job every day, leading soldiers and developing soldiers. And then the NCO and the officer leadership there.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, unfortunately, a little bit of truth, it's not, it's not unprecedented in our history, but we're struggling a little bit in that space. There is amazing opportunities outside the military also, and so there's a bit of attention. And so we have a group of leaders that's at that phase of their career where many of them do decide to get out, right? And remember, there's no time limit on honorable service. So that's important for everybody to understand, whether you do two years, four years, 10 years, 30 years. Well done, you raised your hand, you served your country, we're better for it already. But there's a tension there and what we're finding is those leaders. They're super committed and they want to be company commanders for two years.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  They want to be a squad leader for the full time. They want to be the platoon sergeant for the full time. And so what we're trying to do is we're trying to like balance ourselves out as an army. So that we can allow them to not get pulled out of those, the jobs that are the most impactful. I mean, as a company commander, like what is better than being a company commander? What is better than being the first sergeant for a badass company commander? I can't think of anything, but we're only allowing company commanders 12 months in command right now. Because then they gotta go straight to a staff job. They didn't come in to want to do all those staff jobs. They come in because the gold medal is company command, right? And so we've got to figure that out. It's a big initiative for the army right now.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Because are we losing some talent for that? I don't say they're not committed. They're so committed, they want that full experience as a company commander. Same with PLs. We're, we're cutting PL times. We've got lieutenants working in three shops. Uh, waiting for a PL time, right? And so we've got to fix this balance. It's a big army, so it's not an overnight problem. But I don't think it's a commitment problem. They don't understand and feel the weight. I call it leadership of consequence, right? There's leadership we're all responsible for. In this profession, there's tremendous consequence. If you don't feel that weight and you're not going that extra mile, that's that committed versus just being compliant. And then you just gotta remember, and Rick, I know will agree with me on this, there's just some people that need to

• 42:12Speaker 01

  do their minimum time and serve honorably and then it's time to go do something different.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  There's nothing wrong with reaching your potential on that there. And some people along decide I'm serving my country and gonna take that away from me as a veteran and move on. Where others stay a career of it. But I look and see again how. Well, we had brought that person in and the oath and raising the right hand and how we take a commitment to that. And while he and I, I had a retirement ceremony, but the specialist or team leader who ETS, we did not have an awards or a ceremony for him per se, getting up on that, but getting back and seeing that those levels of commanders and where they are in that there, see, I look back historically now that I'm able to look

• 42:58Speaker 02

  more and see after long periods of combat operations in our country's history, what we transitioned in peacetime, if you want to call after that, there's never really never a time at 100% peace, but see transitions we've made each time after that we've downsized and to see that it's gone up and down over that. It's always been the pattern. I look at my Ranger, but there was times where we didn't exist after major conflicts, took a lot of manpower and monies and downsized and then come back up until 74, we've kept and since. So I look and see in after the major global war on terrorism, then I worry about the things that we made happen. We talked about missing command. Yeah. We developed that in combat on our targeting cycle and kept that going through trust and

• 43:43Speaker 02

  working with our teammates, sister services. Had we been doing Mr. Command in, in 1993, I don't believe we would have had a block hawk down because I would have been out on the vehicles of a sitting out in the ocean on there. Believe we would have got bin Laden probably at Tora Bora on that. And we developed that over 20 years of combat. But now, there was a time where for our joint special operations task force that if a conventional unit had a TI outside their gate, we wouldn't tell them if we weren't hitting it. Those days are gone. Thank God. We built that. Now I worry, what would keep me up at night? That builds up one brick at a time. And we build those walls again. And leaders like this with all his vast combat

• 44:27Speaker 02

  experience and background sees that and they want to do a good job to try to keep that from happening. So we got to find ways to exercise those leaders still when they're not in known combat on that. And also I See where training management where we were turning burning having a surge so much that at my echelons of ops or leaders like, hey, company commander, first sergeant, we got this for you. We're doing all that. We'll set it all up. Training management. You just go out and execute, execute, execute.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  We lost some of those skills.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Now their colonels, maybe sergeant majors would be like, I haven't been doing training management because you were doing it for me. And seeing now that we got to catch up on that.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  So Frank, some of that, I think maybe to for the listener out there that, hey, I just want to know like, I don't necessarily believe in the two echelons down thing. And I know me, the doctrine guy, everybody knows I'm not the, doctrine matters though. There's capstone doctrine that absolutely matters. And then there's some other doctrine that it better keep up with the changing character of war or you're going to lose on the battlefield, right? This is one where I think leaders that have all those reps and sets and experience that Rick's talking about, we're obligated to go down to that level that you referenced and pass on all of that. Not in a belittling way, but as a coach, like we're obligated, like shame on me.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  My legacy should be garbage. If I'm not passing on everything I pass, well, I'm sitting here with you frankly, because this is not my favorite thing to do. It's our job where we should be held accountable to do that. And then that way, when we go back to 1998, when we had one or two people in the company in A37 at Fort Bragg that had a mustard stain from Panama and maybe an old timer from Grenada. And I think the group sergeant major at that time still had some Vietnam. I don't remember him coming down at the 06 level and sowing that into us, if you will. Yet he was the one that had reps and sets from Vietnam. And so that's our generation's role. He still does it. That's why I asked him to be on this podcast.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  We're obligated to do that.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  I was fortunate to have one leader like that that he just mentioned, the guy named Don Purdy, the Vietnam Ranger.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Well known.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, with a six man Ranger team, fighting Valorous, that came back in the Army or then was in the Iranian Rescue Team with the with the unit up at Bragg. And then into the first Ranger Battalion and as my Sergeant Major in third Ranger Battalion, able to share that and that still he's giving back today. I got him coming talking on the team leader course and LPD with officers and NCOs on that relationship there as they're out there across that. He talked about two levels down and made me smile and seeing in combat.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  We didn't talk about this beforehand.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  As I said, with our presence, be at the friction point and two levels down, I've always seen that, okay, if a baton's out there and no one else is out there with them, yes, if the baton leader gets killed, baton sergeant's got to step up, squad leader steps up to be the baton sergeant and vice versa. But anytime that we have other senior leaders out there, it's not going two levels down if he arrives on that there. It's like, make a difference with your presence. And in that case there, if you're not going to jump in there and make a difference with it, why even be there on it? So there's a time and a place that you know where two levels down is going to be like, because three levels up is getting in a fight.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and don't be a pain in the ass. Be value added. If folks hear you're coming to a company live fire range and they're like, oh God, there's a problem in your leadership. They should be going, holy crap. Sergeant Major Merit's coming down to our company live fire range? When's he getting here? Hey, can we get everybody together to kind of, you know, I mean, there's a difference in there. You need to be figuring out how you're perceived or you're not coaching like you think you are.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  You know, even in combat, I look and see that it's also training. Combat is training. We do after action reviews on it as well. And for me to be the eyes and the ears for my commanders, he called me the comment on the common sense. I couldn't do that. Sitting behind a computer, I couldn't do that sitting at the jock. I had to do my work there, but to be out with the men at the point of fighting. And how can I do that and not be in their way? I found the best way to do that was grab something heavy to carry. And your buddy right away.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  And be there, and be there, you know, Pericles reminds us, and I got a really neat print a good buddy of mine gave me. It's in my office, you know, our legacy's not in what we leave and, you know, carved stone mountains, right? It's, it's actually what we sow into the people we're responsible for. I believe that. He knows it. That's why he gave that to me. It's a big deal, but you have to be intentional with that. You're not doing all this so you can come on the Jedburgh podcast and talk like, what are you doing with everything you've learned? In 35 years or 33 years, and you should feel obligated to give that back.

• 49:29Fran Racioppi?

  We're in the human business. And we're in the business of war fighting. And it takes warriors to war fight. And our job as soldiers of all levels is to fight and win our nation's wars. And that's something that we've done in this country for a very long time. That's something that we'll continue to do. And we'll continue to support that mission. And I know that with your leadership and your guidance, because you both have been instrumental in the lives of generations of soldiers at every level. And many of those who, you know, sit in echelons above us upstairs today all owe a debt of gratitude for all your work.

• 50:10Fran Racioppi?

  And everything that you've done and will continue to do. So thank you for taking the time to sit down with me, share this. We need warriors and we're not going to stop making them. And I know you're not either. So thank you.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an honor to be here and, you know, just remind everybody out there, hey, this is a journey, not a destination. And so you don't check a bunch of boxes and you finally make it like this is a way of life.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Honored to be here, very humbled to have me, Army Weimar, and be his ambassador for warfighting. One that I say I talk a lot about the combat readiness is the way of life, and I get great discussion about that from those warriors, but also warriors to be still out there and for what those warriors do in America afterwards. Our nation needs them, and I think that's been the strength of our nation of over 250 years of warriors leading us on that. And just whether it was two years or 30, he said, he used the word legend, and I see a legend is nothing but a man who, a woman that's spent their life surrounding himself with people better than them. And by the likes of it, I'm still doing that today. So honored to be here.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Thanks, Frank.

• 51:21Fran Racioppi?

  American Jedbergs went on to form the foundation of the United States Special Forces and the Special Activities Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Thanks for listening to the Jedburgh Podcast, an official program of the Green Beret Foundation. I'm your creator and host, Fran Rycho. Join us next week for a new episode on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Check us out on YouTube for full episodes, highlights, and other long and short form content. If you like what you heard, give us a like and leave a review. Follow the Jedburgh Podcast and the Green Beret Foundation on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, extra threads. Send your comments and inquiries to Fran at JedbergPodcast.com. As former members of Special Operations Forces, the Jedburgh Media Channel, and the Green Beret Foundation remain committed to supporting all generations of U.S. Army Special Forces

• 52:03Fran Racioppi?

  and their families. Thanks for joining us on this episode. How you prepare today determines success tomorrow.