112: Life is Hard. So What Are You Going To Do? 12 Rules For Life With Jordan Peterson

0:00:00 - Opening 0:12:58 - Jordan Peterson. 0:32:36 - Stand up straight and be competent. 0:52:44 - Being aggressive overcomes fear. 1:05:20 - Extreme Ownership with your wife, boss, and others. 1:26:13 - Importance of Having thick skin. 1:39:04 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:42:32 - Support: JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare and Discipline Pre-Mission http://originmaine.com/origin-labs/jocko/, THE MUSTER 005 in DC http://www.extremeownership.com/washington-dc-005. Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi http://www.originmaine.com, withJocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com, Onnit Fitness stuff, http://www.onnit.com/jocko and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, http://amzn.to/2szgaEj and Jocko Soap. https://irishoaksranch.com/storefront/jocko-soap 2:09:01 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast Number 112 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  I had a friend.

• 0:17Jocko Willink?

  And someday, when I can, I will tell you all about him.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  But until then, for now, I will say that I could not have asked for a better friend.

• 0:35Jocko Willink?

  Did he have faults?

• 0:38Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 0:40Jocko Willink?

  Don't we all?

• 0:43Jocko Willink?

  Now, most of his faults weren't really that big of a deal.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  But they were raw.

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  Raw because he admitted to them all openly and directly and naively, to be honest. In a sort of pointed and heavy-handed self-critique, he would bare his weaknesses to the world and to me and to himself.

• 1:15Jocko Willink?

  And he would speak to me as if I had no faults.

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  And I would try to explain otherwise, but he wouldn't listen.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  He would only judge himself.

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  "I'm too emotional," he would say.

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  "Not really," I'd tell him. "I don't know how to talk to people right."

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  "Sure you do," I'd say.

• 1:50Jocko Willink?

  "I make the same mistakes over and over and over again," he would say. "We all do," I would tell him.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  I was better than him at some things, we both knew that.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  There were other things he was better at than me.

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  But he always downplayed those things.

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  And we both knew that too.

• 2:21Jocko Willink?

  When we were overseas,

• 2:24Jocko Willink?

  in a bad place,

• 2:27Jocko Willink?

  in a wretched place, he never complained.

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  And I gave him every reason to.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  I put him in the worst locations, with the greatest possible chances for failure, and the highest probability for fire, and fury, and blood, and death.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  But despite the enemy, and the heat, and the living conditions, and the fear, and the wounded men, and the screams, and the misery that was all around,

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  he did not complain.

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  It seemed at times that God himself was trying to test the limits of my friend.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  And it seemed like sooner or later,

• 3:24Jocko Willink?

  the bullets or the bombs would find him.

• 3:31Jocko Willink?

  But through some incomprehensible miracle, he survived through that deployment.

• 3:42Jocko Willink?

  Now, I make no claim whatsoever to understand why things in life unfold the way they do.

• 3:54Jocko Willink?

  In fact, I must say that many of the things I've seen in the world make no sense to me at all.

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes it's just utter confusion, no rhyme, no reason.

• 4:10Jocko Willink?

  Some of the things that I've seen have left me downright disgusted, jaded,

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  repulsed,

• 4:22Jocko Willink?

  sickened by mankind and the awful and reprehensible things we are capable of.

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  But there's another side to that.

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  There's another side and there are other people who do their best to redeem all the evil our souls are capable of.

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  My friend was one of those people.

• 4:55Jocko Willink?

  After deploying with me and surviving that bloody and violent battlefield, my friend, like most of the guys in my old job, he volunteered to deploy again.

• 5:08Jocko Willink?

  I thought and I told him prematurely and incorrectly that the enemy was done.

• 5:15Jocko Willink?

  I told him that the war was all but over. I told him, "Just do the deployment and sit tight over there and play the game. And in a few months, we'll be back and we can go surfing and we can play guitar and we can tell stories and we can cook steaks and we can surf some more."

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  I told him we could carry on when he got home.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  That was the plan.

• 5:42Jocko Willink?

  It was a good plan.

• 5:48Jocko Willink?

  But the enemy gets a vote.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  And there was intense violence during that deployment for him as well.

• 5:59Jocko Willink?

  It was similar to what we had experienced together overseas, an aggressive enemy hell-bent on killing Americans, mixed in an urban environment with a terrified local populace.

• 6:12Jocko Willink?

  He told me that the enemy he was now facing wasn't as tactically skilled as the enemy we had faced, but he said that they were braver and more determined.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  That seemed to concern him a bit more.

• 6:30Jocko Willink?

  He seemed to feel the odds were that he would die.

• 6:40Jocko Willink?

  He sent me his last will and testament.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  He was not morose about it. Just stating the facts, it's bad over here. The enemy is aggressive, casualty rates are very high, the enemy has new weapons that are extremely capable.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  It didn't look good.

• 7:08Jocko Willink?

  I waited.

• 7:11Jocko Willink?

  I waited the long and completely powerless wait.

• 7:17Jocko Willink?

  One known mostly by mothers and fathers and wives and children that are old enough to understand.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  But a wait also made by the brothers at home.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  That know the risk all too well.

• 7:40Jocko Willink?

  It was a long wait.

• 7:49Jocko Willink?

  At my friend's memorial service.

• 7:54Jocko Willink?

  His brother told a story.

• 7:58Jocko Willink?

  My friend had talked to his brother on the phone while my friend was on deployment.

• 8:05Jocko Willink?

  And my friend had explained to his brother in no uncertain terms the situation that my friend was in.

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  The enemy was extremely hostile, the battlefield was chaotic, the attacks were frequent and furious.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  It was violence that my friend had not experienced before.

• 8:28Jocko Willink?

  This was war unleashed and it seemed to be heading to an inescapable conclusion.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  And my friend's brother sensed this.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  Even through the phone, even thousands of miles away as his brother.

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  He sensed the darkness and the overwhelming finality of the situation.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  And he said to my friend,

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  "Do you need anything from me? How can I help? Is there anything that I can do?"

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  And my friend was quiet for a moment.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  And then my friend made one simple request.

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  He said, "Pray for my men."

• 9:42Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 9:46Jocko Willink?

  I want you to think about that.

• 9:51Jocko Willink?

  I want you to think about that level of selflessness, that level of faith,

• 9:59Jocko Willink?

  and of commitment, and of care for others, that dedication,

• 10:07Jocko Willink?

  in the face of fear and violence and death, to at that moment, put others before yourself,

• 10:20Jocko Willink?

  to do good,

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  to be heroic and strong and brave, and yet at the same time, to be humble, and to be willing to sacrifice everything for your friends.

• 10:39Jocko Willink?

  That's a man.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  And I couldn't have asked for a better friend.

• 10:56Jocko Willink?

  The world can be a horrible place.

• 11:02Jocko Willink?

  It's filled with violence and treachery and sometimes it seems that the legions of demonic powers have the upper hand in the battle between good and evil and it can seem that all might be lost.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  And then, we remember.

• 11:26Jocko Willink?

  We see the light and for me, the light comes from the example of others.

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  In this case, another person, another human being.

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  My friend, who despite all the powers of darkness, stood up and rejected all that wickedness and proved that there is hope.

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  And there is a path to light.

• 11:57Jocko Willink?

  And we can get on that path if we choose to do so, like my friend did.

• 12:08Jocko Willink?

  And that's life.

• 12:11Jocko Willink?

  At least, as far as I can unravel the mystery, that's what I see. We are here and the best thing we can do is stand against the darkness and try to spread light in the world.

• 12:28Jocko Willink?

  But that can be a very hard thing to do.

• 12:34Jocko Willink?

  Because life is not easy. In fact, it is said, and there are very few that would deny that life itself is suffering.

• 12:47Jocko Willink?

  But there is a way.

• 12:51Jocko Willink?

  And there is a path.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  And today, I have someone on the podcast for a second time. That I think can help guide us down that path.

• 13:12Jocko Willink?

  Away from darkness.

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  And toward the light.

• 13:18Jocko Willink?

  Dr. Jordan B. Peterson. Welcome back to the podcast for a second time.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Thanks, Chargo.

• 13:29Jocko Willink?

  You were on podcast number 98 last time. And if anyone wants to stop right now, go and listen to 98 if you haven't listened to it yet. And that's a good place to start learning about you. And then you could also just Google Jordan Peterson and go from there because there's thousands, you think there's thousands of hours of you of content of you on YouTube?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's probably horrible as it is to contemplate.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, there, there probably is. I mean, I've contributed about 500 hours probably in lectures and so on, but people have been cutting it up and

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  There's all the podcasts and YouTube videos that other people have made and I think I looked the other day because people keep chopping up the lectures and the interviews and making little videos and my son and I tried to estimate it last week. It looked like 4,000 people had made videos last week.

• 14:24Jocko Willink?

  In one week.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  In one week. Yeah, it's, it's really, yeah, it's crazy. It's, it really is.

• 14:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So you've got a new book out and the book is called 12, 12 Rules for Life. An anecdote to chaos. And you know, one of the key points in the book is life is suffering, right? And clearly, um, I think

• 14:46Speaker 01

  And malevolence. Because the suffering is not enough, you know?

• 14:51Jocko Willink?

  We need a little, we need a little bonus on top of that.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to inflict it.

• 14:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, obviously, my old line of work, we got to see that, and we got to see it all the time. Two things. Number one, where does that come from? And you don't need to spend a bunch of time on that, because you've talked about that so much. But more important to me, what happens when people miss that point?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Well, the suffering seems to be built in, in some sense. And it's a very difficult thing to understand fully, because the fundamental question is, does being justify suffering? It's something like that. And there's this old idea, I read this, it was a Jewish idea, it's kind of a riddle. And so, it's a riddle about the nature of God. And so, the riddle runs, what does a being who's omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, so those are the three classical attributes of God, lack? I think, well, that's nothing, obviously.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  It's no limitation. And so, and so that was the explanation for why God created everything, but more particularly, why God created man. It's that there's something about limitation that adds to completeness. Maybe because it provides something to struggle against. It's something like that. In the book, in Twelve Rules for Life, I talk about what happens to happen to Superman in the 1980s. It's like Superman got so powerful that you could bounce hydrogen bombs off his chest, you know, and he could move planets. It's like, and then he got boring at the same time, because what are you going to do to him? Nothing. It's like, he can just solve every problem instantly. Well, there's no story there. And you might say, well, who cares if there's a story? And that's a reasonable

• 16:43Speaker 01

  objection. Maybe there should just be no story at all, right? That's the Mephistophelean objection to life. There should be no story at all. But maybe that's not the right answer. Maybe it's better to have being, even if it requires limitation, even if the limitation necessitates suffering, even if the limitation and the suffering necessitate evil, that that's a separate issue. Perhaps there's a way of maneuvering through that, a pathway that makes that all not only acceptable, let's say, at least acceptable, that would be a good start, but But fully justifiable, something that you would voluntarily accept if you had the opportunity. Nietzsche, Nietzsche sort of cottoned on to that in some sense with his idea of the eternal return.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  He said, "You should try to live each moment of your life so that if you had to live that moment recurring for eternity, that you would find that desirable." It's like, it's a high standard, man. So, but, but, but there's a very interesting point there, which is that maybe you can say that despite the suffering and malevolence, this is worth it. And I think people have experiences like that in their life, you know? And you can have more experiences if you live your life, I would say, according, if you're on the proper path, then maybe your life can consist of almost nothing but experiences like that. Now, you know, I say that knowing full well that people get cut off at the knees

• 18:08Speaker 01

  and that life can be very arbitrary and hard and that everyone is, is prone to the, the negative consequences of deceit and betrayal, all of those things. I mean, the book, the book 12 Rules for Life, in some sense, is a very dark book. But it's not exactly because the darker the darkness, the brighter the light appears. It's something like that. And, you know, you say, "Well, no, life's not so bad. You can be happy." And I think, "No, life really is bad. It's really bad. And no matter how bad you think it is, it's actually worse than that." You can't really get to the bottom of how terrible things can get. You know, people who have post-traumatic stress disorder know that. You know, they've hit something so bad that they cannot live with it.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  They have no idea how to live with it. And it hurts them, not just psychologically, but physiologically as well. It's very difficult to recover. So they have a sense of how bad it can be, and then they can hardly live with it. But I would say, despite that, and I would say also that this is the central idea in the, in 12 Rules for Life, is that despite that bottomless horror, in some sense, there is a way of being that's powerful enough to... Both transcend and justify that in some sense. And that has to do with with with the decision to act as if it would be better if things were better. That's the first thing. And you think, "Well, that's easy. I'd like things to be better."

• 19:35Speaker 01

  It's no, no, wait a second. There's hatred in your heart and there's resentment in your soul. And there's bitterness at your position in the world. And there's the sense that you're a victim and there's the anger that goes along with that. And the desire to hurt, like you have all of that. And maybe you have it in spades, maybe it's mostly what you are. And because of that, you do not want things to be better. You want to spread some misery out of spite. And that's what chapter six is about, right? Put your house in perfect order before you criticize the world. It's about people like the Columbine High School shooters. And exactly what they were motivated by. Because I understand what they were motivated by. And so to wish that things were better means that you have to make a real decision that despite all the

• 20:18Speaker 01

  flaws of existence, the suffering and the malevolence, that it's best not to become embittered by that and to work for the betterment of everyone. You, for sure. Your family, for sure. Your community. But perhaps even your enemies. You know, if you have any sense, you wish your enemies well. It doesn't mean you wish them victory. It doesn't mean you don't think they're wrong. None of that. It means that it would be better if the world was set up so that they didn't have to suffer miserably and futilely and evilly as well. That would be better. And so then you can aim at that. You know, and the best way to aim at that is, well, first of all, to aim at it,

• 21:01Speaker 01

  to actually sort yourself out and think, "Okay, well, if I could have things the way I wanted them to be, that's what I would want," right? And that takes a lot of psychological organization before you can state that without, without

• 21:17Speaker 01

  What would you say, without holding anything back, you know? Because there's that part of you, that bitter part, that wants vengeance and wants, and wants to wreak havoc, that's there. It's hard to constrain that. And then, well, the other part, along with this, as well as aiming at the highest good that's attainable, let's say, is to also decide that you're going to speak the truth in that endeavor, and to risk that, you know, and there's that... And because I think those are the things that, that help you orient yourself properly. That's the message on the Sermon on the Mount, by the way, which is, "Aim at the highest good that you can conceive of, and act and tell the truth in that pursuit," right?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  The other element there is to focus on the day, once you've... Once you've aligned yourself with the heavenly star, right? Aim high and then focus on the day, that's very good advice. Because it also imbues everything you do in your daily life with significance. It's the "Why am I doing this?" To avoid hell, that's a good one, let's start with that. It's like, to avoid hell, and if you have any imagination at all, if you've lived in the world at all, if you're not naive, you know what that means. It's not just the hell that you encounter, it's the hell that you foolishly produce around yourself and are then responsible for. That's a perfectly good sort of hell. So you want to avoid that, for sure. And maybe you want to dare risking making things better.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  It's like, that'll imbue your life with significance. And that significance, you know, one of the things I've discovered, learned, I would say, over the last 25 years, is that there's always been a mythological idea, or an idea in literature and philosophy, that there was a shining path, you know, that you could walk down. And modern cynical people believe that that sort of meaning, the meaning that would be obtained by walking on that path, is somehow illusory or arbitrary. And I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever that that's true. I think that sense of meaningful engagement, that...

• 23:21Speaker 01

  What is revealed to you when you're in the right place at the right time, doing the right thing, that sense of deep engagement, that loss of self-consciousness, that feeling that things are worthwhile, that deep-seated feeling that things are worthwhile, that's the most real thing. I think, I think the neurobiological evidence suggests that. I really do believe that. And so, we're in a fortunate time in some sense because we can look at those old metaphorical ideas of the, of the shining path, let's say, the, the golden path forward, and we can say, "Yeah, that's actually real. It's real." And that's something. And then that's so, what's, what's so cool about that, in my estimation, is that, and

• 24:02Speaker 01

  this is why 12 Rules for Life is actually an optimistic book, is like, the darkness is real, but the light is stronger. It's like, wow, could that be true? Could that possibly be true? I think it's true. So, that's a good thing to know, man, that that might be true.

• 24:18Jocko Willink?

  And, and, you know, the, when I was talking about my friend in the beginning of this podcast, that's, that's why I was talking about it, because it was a guy who had every reason to be, to be negative, and to be dark, and to look at the world and just say, "This is hell, and it's not worth it." But instead, what he really did was want to take care of his, of his friends.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  I talk about a woman in my book, as a, someone I met as a client when I was just beginning my psychotherapeutic practice, and she just blew me away. I've never forgotten her. So, she was, she had a horrible life. She was unattractive, uneducated, no career, unemployed, so shy, you can't even imagine it. Like, you've met someone shy and anxious? It's like, they weren't in the same universe as this woman. She was so shy that she couldn't walk up to people without looking at the ground, hunching over, and shielding her eyes. So, that's how she approached people on the street. And, and she, she, she looked like a homeless person as well. And so, and she came to the behavior therapy unit that

• 25:24Speaker 01

  I was working at, and...

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Hypothetically for treatment, and so what we started doing was seeing if we could get her to stand up a bit and look people in the eye more normally, so that people wouldn't respond to her, as if she was so peculiar, you know, so we were trying to just to change her behavior. But I started talking to her, and well, she told me a little bit about her life. It's like, she lived at her, she lived where she lived, her mother was, I think she lived with her aunt, who was like a violent schizophrenic alcoholic who had religious delusions and constantly accused her of being possessed by the devil, and she had a really violent and abusive alcoholic boyfriend who used to mistreat this woman. So that was like home life, hey, it's like, yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  And she had been an inpatient in this hospital, the Douglas Hospital, and that was in the 1980s, and the Douglas Hospital was a huge hospital, about the size of a university campus, and it had had a lot of inpatients, but they were all let out on the streets when medication became widely available, and when deinstitutionalization was the norm. But there was a subset of them who couldn't be deinstitutionalized, and these were people that you can hardly imagine. So I used to go in the underground corridors in the Douglas Hospital, because it's very cold in Montreal, so there are underground corridors collecting the buildings, and down there, there would be vending machines and places for people to sit, and it was like walking through Dante's Inferno, because these were people who were so damaged, you

• 26:51Speaker 01

  know, they'd been in a psychiatric institution for maybe two or three decades, they could not be released, no matter what, even though that's what the hospital was trying to do. And so it was like Diane Arbusse used to go across the United States and photograph strange people, and she has a whole collection of her photographs, they're quite arresting and shocking, and it was like walking through Diane Arbusse's universe, you know, and so those were the inpatients, and she had been an inpatient from time to time, but was well enough so she could also go out, and it turned out, she didn't actually want treatment. She had this dog, she used to take it for walks, and so that was her source of enjoyment, right? And she thought, I really like this dog, and I really like taking it for walks, and

• 27:33Speaker 01

  maybe I could go to the Douglas Hospital and find one of these inpatients. And take him out for a walk, maybe that would be a good thing for him. And so the reason she had come to the behavior therapy clinic wasn't to treat all of her problems and like, this woman had problems, man. Everything about her life was a problem in, in ways that like a normal person just cannot begin to understand, you know, unless they're in one of those situations in their life where everything is collapsing around them. And what she did, what she decided was, well, there's someone worse off than me, than me that I could help. It's like, she just absolutely blew me away, you know? This poor woman, she had nothing going for her. Well, I guess she did, eh? Cause she had this nobility of spirit that was absolutely indomitable. It just, I never forgot that.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  It just blew me away.

• 28:20Jocko Willink?

  Does that somehow lead her into her situation in a way? If she's so noble and she wants to help her, her aunt that's all crazy and

• 28:26Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 28:27Jocko Willink?

  And she wants to help prop up her boyfriend that's violent and crazy?

• 28:30Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so. I don't think she wanted any of that. She was just one of these people, it's like, you know, you can put someone in a situation that's so dire that, that there's virtually no escape from it. Like I've seen people in my clinical practice for whom things around, things around them have collapsed so badly that there's just no fixing it. There's, you fix one thing and two other things break. And then you fix those and three other things break. There's just no bottom. And those are often families that have had multi-generational problems, deeply rooted. The whole community is pathologized. The entire family structure is demolished. They're, they're people don't have any marketable skills and they haven't for generations. The whole situation is complicated by drug and alcohol abuse

• 29:15Speaker 01

  and, and heavily biologically influenced insanity of one form or another, usually conjoined with relatively low cognitive ability. It's just, it's just hell, no matter which way you turn. And I didn't see her as a contributor to that. I mean, I'm sure she made her mistakes like everyone else, but she was, she certainly wasn't playing martyr or victim. She, she didn't come into the, to the clinic to complain to begin with, which is like, she was just telling me these were the, the situation that she lived in. She wasn't That isn't what she was there for. It's just that we thought she had come for treatment. So we were doing background analysis, you know, an intake interview and found out all these things.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  It's like any one of those problems is enough to bring most people's lives to a shuddering halt. And yet that was her vision. So the reason she had come to the hospital and she didn't just come to the behavior therapy clinic. She'd gone around pestering administrators in the hospital to let her take the long-term inmates out for a walk. Now, they wouldn't do it for, you know, for all sorts of reasons, but that didn't stop her from thinking it was a good idea. And it actually was a good idea. This was a practical idea. Like she could have taken people out on the grounds, because the grounds were huge and walked them with the dog. And it would have been fine for them.

• 30:29Jocko Willink?

  Was there such a thing as pet therapy in 1985? So she was sort of ahead of her.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, right, exactly, exactly. But she had enough wherewithal to notice that, well, that she liked the dog and the dog liked her. And that was a good thing, right? A little bit of love in the world there and that there was nothing wrong with taking the dog for a walk. And that was kind of harmless and why not have someone along?

• 30:50Jocko Willink?

  It made her feel good. She thought, well, maybe it'll make the other person feel good as well.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. So like, you just got to shake your head. Well, that's when I really learned to begin with deeply that there's no correlation between intelligence and wisdom. And then that's actually the case technically, like if you're smart, you can just be like, you can be, you can be smart and good, but you can be smart and bad. It's just.

• 31:12Jocko Willink?

  That's it. Well, we used to say, okay, so we'd get these guys coming in the SEAL teams. That would be for a while we were recruiting just the, for the officer candidates. We were recruiting these guys that were, you know, they went to Ivy League schools and they were off the charts and 1600 on their SATs. And then they were the captain of this and what, they were just these really high achievers. And we, we found that not all of them, but certainly some of them couldn't really function in the, as a, as a leader in the job, because they just didn't have the, I guess, the wisdom to, to pull it off. But they couldn't make the personal connections. They couldn't develop the relationships.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Leadership is a complicated thing and it doesn't boil down just to intelligence.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I don't want to make it sound like none of them were, because some of them were obviously outstanding, incredible leaders. But there were some of them that would be the same kind of recruit, but they just were just missing whatever piece that was.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Well, intelligence and character are definitely not the same thing. They're not the same thing. I mean, all things considered, if you're going to pick one of two leaders, if I would pick the smarter leader over the duller leader, if all other things were equal, you know, because, well. Because someone who's more intelligent can strategize more rapidly and can handle more variables, right? And perhaps can even handle, well, can handle a more rapid rate of transformation as well. And sometimes that's actually crucial. But character and intelligence are, they're clearly not the same thing. And character is actually, well, I don't think anything trumps character. That's that, character is everything, so.

• 32:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's interesting that you, with this, this woman that you talked about in the beginning, you talk about how she's, you know, she's crouched down and she's looking down at the ground and all that. So it's interesting. In your rules, obviously, the first, the first rule is to stand up straight with your shoulders back, right? Well, when you get, for lack of a better word, indoctrinated, in fact, there is no better word. When you get indoctrinated into the military, that's exactly what's happening. And guess what? You get taught, one of the first things that you get taught is how to stand, how to stand properly. And you know what they tell you? Chin up, chest out, shoulders back. They make you stand like that. There's no coincidence to that, is there?

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Not at all, not at all. Well, it's a, it's a, you could say it's a dominant stance, but that's not the right way of thinking about it. Although it is a dominant stance, the reason to adopt it is not because it's a dominant stance. It's a competence stance. And competence tends to make you dominant, at least in, in hierarchies that are functioning properly. Because you want, there are hierarchies, which is what I outlined in chapter one. I say the hierarchies are old, they're not sociocultural constructions. They're not a secondary consequence of capitalism and the free market. All of that is absolute nonsense. It couldn't be more wrong. And as an indication of that, I point out that lobsters, whom we diverged from on the evolutionary front

• 34:01Speaker 01

  a third of a billion years ago, have hierarchies, right? And that the neurochemical systems, the neural, neurological systems that lobsters have run on, that mediate their hierarchical status, run on the same chemical that the neurological systems that we use to mediate hierarchy run on. So that's just absolutely mind-boggling. But a lobster, like a victorious lobster, stretches out and adopts a more dominant pose because his serotonin levels go up as he becomes more and more victorious. And that governs posture. Well, and so to stand up straight with your shoulders back is to open yourself up to the world. You're not in a, you're not in the defensive crouch of a prey animal.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Technically speaking, and that is the circuitry that's governing posture. It's prey versus predator, or something like that. And to stand up like that is to expose yourself to the world, but in a "bring it on" sort of manner. Not precisely combative, but let's say courageous. And your posture announces that. And it doesn't just announce that to other people. It announces that to yourself. And it can be one of those things that can start a virtuous cycle occurring, which is partly why it's taught in the military. You get these guys that come in, they're all slumped over. They don't know how to stand up. They're looking at their feet, their necks are bent. Like, even if they're good-looking men, they don't look good because they're all crunched over.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  You see people like this on the street all the time. They can be perfectly attractive, except they're completely huddled in. You know, they need to stand up and stretch themselves out. And then they can breathe, too. And that's a competent stance. And one of the things that the critics of the modern West don't understand about hierarchies is that, first of all, they're everywhere, they're inevitable. If you're gonna have a distinction of value between things, you have a hierarchy. And you don't wanna get rid of the distinction of values between things because then you don't have anything to do. That's foolish. You can't live that way. So, they say, "Well, the hierarchies are based on power." It's like, no, they're not. They're based on competence. And there isn't anything more powerful than competence. But power isn't tyranny.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  It's not brutality. It's not threat. It might be the hint of all those things. You know, because I don't think you can be fully competent without being able to hint at those things. But hierarchies in the West are fundamentally based on competence. That doesn't mean they're not flawed, because we miss the mark lots. And there's lots of reasons why perfectly competent people don't attain the position that they deserve and that they should have for their benefit and everyone else's. The hierarchies are tainted by corruption. But fundamentally, they're based on competence.

• 36:45Jocko Willink?

  And that's... So with that, this first rule that you put in the book... And you're saying that's a cycle that can go backwards. So you don't have to have like the serotonin first and then you stand up. If you stand up straight, you'll somehow increase your serotonin.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely, definitely.

• 37:02Jocko Willink?

  And you can actually, didn't you say you could inject lobsters with serotonin and they start to stand straighter?

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can basically give them antidepressants. So like if a lobster gets defeated in a fight, then he's statistically more likely to lose the next fight than you would guess from a tally of his previous victories. So that's the first thing. If you lose, you increase your risk of further loss. But if you win, you increase your risk of future gains. That's, that's a very important principle. It's a crucially important principle. It governs life. But yeah, if you take a lobster and he gets all defeated and he's off pouting and won't fight anymore because he's, you know, having a bad day and you inject him with serotonin, essentially give him antidepressants, it's the same thing, then he'll straighten up and he'll go out and have another scrap. It's like, and I read that, oh, I don't know, it's probably at least 10 years ago, when I was reading about, well, the, the neurophysiology

• 37:52Speaker 01

  of these neurochemical systems, that's why I got on to it. It just was another thing that just blew me away. I thought, really? You're kidding? That circuit is that old? It's like, it's that old? Seri- you know, that's way before there were trees, eh? That's how long ago that is. And so hierarchy is a patriarchal construction. How about no? How about that's wrong? It's seriously wrong.

• 38:15Jocko Willink?

  So I had, I was talking to one of my friends the other night, uh, his name is Joe. He's got a kid that's wrestling. His kid is six years old, I think. Dom. And he says, you know, he's getting put into the higher category. He's kind of getting his butt whipped now. And I'm really not sure. What do you think? And I said, well, you want him to win. Because when he wins, it's more fun and we, has more fun. So now I have actual more evidence that you should get your kids in a position. Again, I think your kids should get beat sometimes.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:43Jocko Willink?

  Uh, but they should certainly not get beat down all the time.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  No, exactly.

• 38:47Jocko Willink?

  I did that to my kids when, when my kids first started jujitsu. I, I put them, oh, you're good, you're gonna compete because I'm telling you to.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:53Jocko Willink?

  And then I'm gonna put you in a higher weight class with older kids because that's gonna make you tougher. That was my, you know, stupid thinking.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:00Jocko Willink?

  And now with my youngest, I'm like, no, no, no. You, you go out and you have fun. And you go out and you compete against people that are somewhat equal to you, maybe a little bit below you, maybe a little higher, but you're gonna win sometimes.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, absolutely. What, well, that's, I think we could, we could think about that also in terms of, of the conversation about meaning that we started to have. It's like, If you win all the time, that's meaningless. Because, well, and you think, "Why?" Because you want to win. It's like, "Yeah, fair enough." So why would winning all the time become meaningless? It's because your theory of winning isn't sophisticated enough. Because here's how you win. You play the game to win. But while you're playing, you play in a way so that you get better at the game. Right? Because you're gonna play a bunch of games. Well, it's even more than that. You play the game to win, but you play it so that you get better at the game. Okay, fine, that makes sense. So you want to push yourself, right? Because that's how you get better. And so you need competition to push yourself. So you need to have the risk of loss.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Because otherwise, you won't do it. But here's an even better way of thinking about it. You play the game so that you don't only get better at that game, but you get better at the entire set of possible games. And that's what you do when you're a good sport. It's like, "Well, so how do you do that?" Well, partly, you find the proper level of competition. Right? So you want to be pushed so that you will make the effort necessary to remove what's useless about yourself and to help foster the growth of what's useful. And if you do that, then you get the the joy of participating in the game towards victory. But the extra joy of

• 40:37Speaker 01

  building yourself more and more strongly at the same time. And so when you tell your kid, "Doesn't matter whether you win or lose. It's how you play the game." Your kid says, "What do you mean by that?" And you say, "I don't know. I don't know what I mean by that." Because the kid says, "I'm supposed to win, aren't I?" It's like, "Well, yeah. So why does it matter how I play the game?" It's like, "Well, then you're stumped. Even though you're right, you just don't know why." But the reason is, is you want to tell your... Here's the reason. It's like, we can make this very simple. Life is not a game. It's a series of games. It's actually a series of diverse games. Okay, so who's the winner of this series of diverse games? Because that's the real question, right? Not who wins a game. It's like, whatever, you win a game.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  It's like, if I hold a gun to your head and we're playing chess, I can say, "Lose!" It's like, "I win." It's like, "Well..."

• 41:30Speaker 01

  That's not helpful, obviously. So you want to teach your kid, you want to help your kid learn to be the winner of the set of diverse games. Okay, so what does that winner look like? Well, here's the first clue. That's the person who keeps getting invited to play. You know, so because you win, if people invite you to play all the time, you have opportunities coming to you just non-stop. And maybe, like, let's say you have 50 opportunities and each of them are potentially 50% for you and 50% for the other person. You think, well, that's a pretty good deal. And then you think, well, wait a minute, let's flip this around. So it's like 60% for the other person and 40% for me. I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna overboard in the generosity. You think, well, then what happens? Well, then instead of having

• 42:15Speaker 01

  20 opportunities at every moment, you have like 50 opportunities at every moment. And that's so, that's what you want for your kids is you want all the invisible doors around them to open. And you do that by saying, play nobly, right? Pay attention to your teammates. Pass the damn puck so they get a chance, right? Even if you're the best player on the team, help the people on your team develop. Don't grandstand, right? Um, don't, if you have the opportunity to beat your opponent 20 to 1, you know, in goals, doesn't happen very often, but it can, especially when kids are playing. It's like, well, maybe after you're up 7 to 1, it's like, back off a bit. You don't have to humiliate your opponents.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  It's because it's, it's, what would you say? It's contemptible behavior on your part. And so, you know that because you go watch a hockey game or something like that, and you watch a kid that really knows how to play. It's like they're playing like mad to win. They're pushing themselves to be better, but they're paying attention to their damn teammates. And they're, they respect their opponents. And you think, well, that's, that's a hell of a kid there. It's like, yeah, that's exactly right. That, that kid's going somewhere.

• 43:27Jocko Willink?

  Do, do kids ever show? They get so committed, let's say hockey, right? You get a kid that's just so committed to winning in hockey that he's gonna lose at other games?

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's another problem. That's another, well, that's another problem is like.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  So you could be overbored.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, well, the other thing too is that with sports, like you could say, well, most kids aren't gonna be NHL level hockey players, like, that's impossible. Like, maybe you should aim for that. I would say probably not, cuz it's so damn unlikely. But whatever, some kids are gonna manage that, and, and more power to them. Say, well, what are the sports for, for the rest of the kids? And the answer to that is, well, obviously, there's the physical discipline and, and the health that goes along with that, and the ability to engage in and tolerate competition, and learn how to be a gracious winner and a gracious loser. But a lot of it is charac- that, all that's part of character building. That's what you want, is, you say, well, why build your character? It's like, well, how, how about, that's your set of toolkits for, for, that's your set of tools for dealing with catastrophe?

• 44:27Speaker 01

  How about that for a reason? Right, so one of the things I've, I've suggested to my viewers, this is the men in particular, but not just the men, um, you should be the most reliable person at your father's funeral. That's a good goal, man. That's a good goal, because everyone's broken in a situation like that. And you adding to that brokenness and misery, I mean, you're gonna be grieving, like, no doubt about it, and, and no kidding, but there's a time to step forward with some character, you know, and it's the same thing, you're gonna be at someone's deathbed, you gonna be quibbling with your siblings while you're doing that? While your parents dying? It's like, it's bad enough that they're dying, that's tragedy, right? But you can turn that into hell, no problem.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  You just get a bunch of people with no character around a deathbed, and it's like, well, it's bad enough, but that turns it into something like hell. And that happens in people's lives all the time. It's like, character is everything. So, and that's why the wise people of our past tradition insisted upon that. They say, well, don't lie. Well, why not? Well, it destroys your character. Well, so what? Well, then you turn suffering into hell. Is that what you want? Maybe, you know, cuz people will want that, but I would say, walk away from people like that, right? That's not, unless that's what you want, then...

• 45:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you've got a lot of, uh, I mean, it's, it's interesting as I'm, since I just got done reading the book, you know, I can hear you just hitting the wave tops of all the different rules and they're all interconnected about, don't, you know, don't lie or, or, or tell the truth, or at least don't lie.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:04Jocko Willink?

  And then, you know, hang, what's the, what's the chapter about hang around with people that wanna see you do well?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, yeah. Make friends with people who want the best for you.

• 46:12Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so, well, and it's a really, it's a real technical idea. So Carl Rogers, who's a psychotherapist, great psychotherapist, I'd, I'd very much recommend his books to people, especially if they wanna learn to listen, because he was really good at teaching people how to listen. He had this idea that what he would manifest towards his clients in therapy was unconditional positive regard. And I've always had trouble with that because, well, because you don't treat your children, for example, with unconditional positive regard.

• 46:42Jocko Willink?

  You mean, so no matter what someone says, you're saying, yeah, that's a good idea?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's, that's why it's tricky. Well, what he, what he, he didn't articulate it, I think, as well as he might have. What you wanna do is, for your child, is that you want the best for the best in them. That's what you want. And that's what you want from people that you surround yourself with. Now, they'll hold you to a high standard if that's the case, right? Because whenever you degenerate in any of the multiple ways that you're likely to degenerate, they're gonna like whack you on the back of the head and say, you know, clue the hell in, you know, you're, you're demeaning yourself, you're less than you could be. And there, there's real judgment in that, and it's harsh, you know, but with friends, it's the same thing. You want friends, they're not friends if they're not these people.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  You want friends who, when something good happens to you, they're, that's good for you, right? They're happy about that. They're not like all bitter and resentful underground and like saying horrible things behind your back and telling you how they did something that was better and trying to drag you down. It's like, that's not helpful. And then, when something bad happens to you and you go to them and you say, look, this terrible thing happened to me, first of all, they don't try to top it with some like horrible thing that happened to them, because they don't have the patience to listen. And second, they're not secretly gloating about the fact that catastrophe finally befell you. It's like they're actually hurt by it. And that, that chapter's an injunction, is like, take a look at the people that are around you.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  And if they're not on the side of what's good for you, then walk away. Because...

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, that's best for them too. If you put up with that, all you're doing is enabling it. It's like, well, it's okay that you mistreat me in a way that's harmful to me and everyone else. It's like, actually, no, that is not okay. It's not, it's not the least bit okay. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to help someone when they're down. That's a whole different issue.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  What if it's your family? So you know how you say like, walk away, right?

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Do you still walk away from your family? Or do you kind of?

• 48:43Speaker 01

  You do if it's necessary.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  There's lots of different ways of walking away.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, like create boundaries.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Well, there's that for sure. There's that. I mean, you, you, sometimes someone's on an incorrigible path. Like, there's just nothing you can do. You know, maybe they're aiming down. They're aiming down hard. And they're bitter and everything they do is to produce misery, virtually everything. And you have to detach yourself from that. It's like, I always think about it from the perspective of a lifeguard. So if you're training to be a lifeguard, one of the things that you're trained to do is to approach someone who's drowning and panicking. And the way you approach them is you put your foot out between you and them and you push forward with your hands with your foot out. And you basically tell them if they're flailing about, you say, look, I'm here to help, but you have to calm down.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  And then if they cling to you, like in panic, you push them away. You think, well, that's pretty damn cruel because what if they drown? It's like, yeah, what if you both drown? That's like not helpful. You're, you're there to rescue them. They take you down. You're both dead. It's like fail, right? So you say, look, quit panicking. I'll help you out, but I'm not drowning along with you. It's like, well, it's the same with someone in your family. It's like, if they're on a downward path and you've done your best, you know, you've, you've made your efforts, you've, and they're not paying attention. They're not changing. They say, yeah, well, I'll quit doing this. Yeah, I'll quit doing this. They tell you the same story over and over and over. It's a downhill path. You don't trust it. At some point, first of all, you stop offering your words.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  That's do not cast pearls before swine, a very, very harsh statement, right? But what it means is if someone, if you're offering words of wisdom to someone in the genuine attempt, help, and they treat that with contempt, then shut up because you're demeaning.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Your words by throwing them away. You think, well, how do you help someone who's aiming down? Well, sometimes you help them by walking away and saying, "Look, you're aiming down so hard that I am, despite the fact, you're my brother, man. It's like, you know, this is killing me. You're aiming down so hard, I'm not coming along with you. And the reason I'm not is to tell you in no uncertain terms that what you're doing is so terrible that I will even violate our kinship to oppose it. And maybe it'll take them 10 years to wake up to that, you know? And that can be the case because, you know, people often have to be hit so many times before they'll learn. You see that especially if someone's addicted

• 51:20Speaker 01

  or otherwise pursuing a pathway that's like seriously downhill. So, yep.

• 51:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you cover that pretty well in that chapter where you're saying, there's a certain point where you just gotta say, "No, we're done."

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  We're done.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  We're done. Well, it's like, why should I think that you're actually trying to change? Maybe you're just telling me is, you tell me the story that you use to justify your own idiocy to yourself. And then you tell it to me and you demand that because I'm compassionate, I accept it and therefore validate your excuse. It's like, well, that, like, it's really hard not to get tangled up in that, right? Because if someone who's really in rough shape is telling you about why they're suffering, first of all, they're probably about half right in their story. But some of it's justification and excuse and blaming and all of that, failure to take responsibility. It's really hard to stand up and say, "No, I don't buy that. No, I don't buy that. No, you're wrong about that." You have to be a brutal bastard in order to do that.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  But, hey, sometimes, like, surgery is brutal, right? It's brutal, but...

• 52:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're gonna cut you open and we're gonna rip out part of your body or whatever.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Right, right, exactly, right, precisely. And so, so, this chapter about, you know, only making friends with people who want the best for you, that's a brutal chapter. You know, but it's right, unfortunately.

• 52:45Jocko Willink?

  Going to your book a little bit, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick up, going back to that first thought. Standing up means voluntarily accepting the burden of being. Your nervous system responds in an entirely different manner when you face the demands of life voluntarily. You respond to a challenge instead of bracing for a catastrophe. You see the gold, the dragon hordes, instead of shrinking in terror from the all too real fact of the dragon. You step forward to take your place in the dominance hierarchy and occupy your territory, manifesting your willingness to defend, expand and transform it.

• 53:26Jocko Willink?

  To stand up straight with your shoulders back is to accept the terrible responsibility of life with eyes wide open. The reason I pulled that one out in particular is the feeling that you have as a soldier or as a, as a military person. A feeling that you have going on an offensive operation, where let's say you're a bad guy and I'm gonna come and get you. Well, first of all, you don't know, and I'm sneaking up on you and I have all this power, right? I, I feel good about it. I'm going to get you. The opposite of that is when I'm doing a convoy or I'm going on a patrol where now the bad guys are out there. They're waiting to attack me and that is a defensive posture. And your attitude about that type of thing is bad.

• 54:08Jocko Willink?

  Now, we would train our guys that, we, we made a specific point with my guys. I would say, look, when you're on patrol, we're on offense. We are scanning, we are looking to get the, to get us to be standing up straight and to get the mentality of, we wanna do this and we're moving towards the target as opposed to we're being chased. That's a big deal.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  It, it, absolutely. That's a big deal. Yeah. And that's, that's, what would you say? That's an extreme example of what's necessary under normal conditions in life. So one of the things that happens if you're treating someone who has a phobia, say like agoraphobia. So they become afraid of virtually everything. Maybe they're afraid of an elevator. It's one of many fears. And so you think, well. And they're afraid of an elevator because they've actually gone in elevators and had panic attacks. So it's weird because what you do to cure them is to get them to go in elevators. And you think, well, wait a second, that's actually what caused the problem. So how can getting them to do that again make it better? And the answer is because they've gone in elevators their whole life, right? And yet they still become terrified. So how can getting them to go in an elevator cure them?

• 55:15Speaker 01

  For a long time, people thought, well, you get them to relax while they were in the elevator. And the pairing of the relaxation with being in the elevator taught them to not be afraid. That was the first theory. But then people learned that, no, you could just get them to go in the elevator without having them relax. And it also worked. And eventually psychologists sorted this out. And what they figured out was that voluntarily encountering something you're afraid of is not the same thing as running from it. Like it's seriously not the same thing. So you say to the person, okay, you're afraid of the elevator. Let's, can you go look at an elevator? And they usually say yes. And maybe they're so terrified because they're so far gone in their illness that they can't. You say, well, how about we look at a bunch of pictures of elevators? Since like virtually everyone can do that. So say, let's look at pictures of elevators till you're bored.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  That actually doesn't take very long because it's actually quite boring. So then the next thing would be, well, let's go. You have to have the person trust you. And so the rule is, look, we're going to do some things that are going to push you, like competition. Right. But you can stop whenever you want. And we're not going to push you any farther than is good for you. And I'll stop anytime you want. I often practice with my clients, like I taught one client a while back to not be afraid of needles. And he was afraid of needles. And I'll tell you what that meant. He had dental surgery with no anesthesia. Oh. Right. Okay, so that gives you some level of what it's like to be afraid. It's like, I'll do the dental surgery, but you're not putting that needle in there. It's really? It's like, I'm no needles. So, so I taught him how to not be afraid of needles, you know?

• 56:45Speaker 01

  And it didn't take very long. But the first thing I did is said, I told him I was going to bring a needle into the office. That was all I told him the first week is next week I'm going to bring a needle in here. And I'm going to keep it sheathed. And it's going to be sitting on a shelf. And that's where I'm going to put it. And when you come in here, you can look at it. And if you want me to put it away, then I'll put it away. It's under your control. And then, so he was okay with that. So he came in, I said, there's the needle. He said, you want to look at it? And I said, no, but can you? It's like, I'll look at it. So he looked at it. And then he said, look, like, I'm going to pick up the needle. And now what you're gonna do is you're gonna tell me to put it down. And I'm gonna put it down. So I picked it up and he got nervous like right away. And he said, well, you put that down. I put it down right away. I said, we do that 10 times.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  So that the bottom part of your nervous system actually knows that that's what's going to happen. Said now, and then the next thing we'll do is we're gonna practice you saying you've had enough and leaving the office. So I pick up the needle and he'd say, okay, so now you say you've had enough, I'm leaving. And so he said that and then I'd let him leave. We did that like 10 times so that he knew that he could just say he'd had enough and leave. So that meant he didn't have to be a prey animal, right? So we're getting him out of that mode. And it didn't take very long until, well, then I could bring the needle close to him. And I said, make sure you watch it. You can't pretend it's not there, right? I'll bring it close to him and touch it and touch him with the sheathed needle. So we did that a bunch. And then finally, I unsheathed it and I'd bring it close.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  And he'd tolerate that or stop me. And then I'd touch him with that. And then the last part of it was that, um, I put it under a piece of paper so he couldn't see it. And then I'd bring it close to him, right? Cause that was, that was the unknown, right? You don't know what the hell's going on underneath the piece of paper. But he got to the point where he could go and have a needle. I took him about, it was very brave of him to do this. Cause well, what had happened, he got, what had happened to him is he had a very bad experience with the childhood dentist. I was about to say, where did this come from? Oh yeah, held him, six people held him down to give him a needle. It's like, it wasn't so good. It had some long-term consequences. But see what happened? So when you, when you do that with people, you don't teach them to be less afraid. You teach them to be braver.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  That's different. And so like, I had a client once, the doors opened on the elevator and she looked in, she said, that's death. Like that's a tube. And I thought, wow, that's an amazing response. And her idea was she'd go in there, her heart rate would accelerate, she'd have a heart attack and she'd die. So as far as she was concerned, walking in there was death, right? Okay. So for me, it was an elevator, but for her, it was death. It's like, okay, well, what do you do about your fear of death? Well, we're not getting rid of that. It's like.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  You know, and you could die in the elevator, you actually could. Probably you won't, but people do die in elevators. And her idea was that, well, if anyone has ever died in an elevator in the history of mankind, that's a good reason for me not to be in the elevator. It's like, fair enough, you know? And then why aren't you terrified out of your skull all the time? Because while you're wandering around, you might have a heart attack. Like, that will probably, in fact, happen to you at some point. So why aren't you terrified of that at every moment? Well, that's the mystery. Well, so you treat people and, and you see with that client, what I eventually did with hers, we went and watched an embalming. She was terrified of death, like, seriously. Yeah.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:08Jocko Willink?

  Good times.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Right, no kidding. But, you know, so you get, you don't get less afraid. You get braver. That's better, because there's plenty of things to be afraid of. But you can get braver. So that's something.

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Do people manage this on their own ever?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. People managed it on their own. They managed it on their own all the time. Like, you know, let's say you're in a ratty, horrible job and you're being oppressed by your boss. And one day you think, I've had enough, and you go write your resume. It's like, there you go, that's what you're doing. It's like, you know, you're, you're, because you think, well, I've got the devil I know. And, and then there's devil I don't know. And that's relevant when you're, when you're trying to switch careers. Can I find another job? Will anyone hire me? How long will this take? Do I have to get educated again? I have to put my resume together? That's a real pain, because there's holes in it and I don't know how to present myself. Then I have to go to interviews and it's like, oh my God, that's, you know, that's a lot of trouble. Well, then you think, no, I'm, I'm gonna start that. I'm gonna rewrite my resume. It's like, well, then, up you get, right?

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  You're moving forward in your life. You're not taken being tyrannized by your son of a bitch of a boss. And you're out to do something about it, you know? And people can get really good at that. So one of the things you do as a psychotherapist is, is you do assertiveness training. It's like, so people come and they say, help, help, I'm being oppressed. In the famous Monty Python, in the famous Monty Python manner. And you say, okay, look, well, first of all, you're probably whining a lot. So let's figure that out. So you quit whining. And then let's figure out how you actually are oppressed and what might be done about it. And then let's figure out a strategy. And then let's help you practice this strategy until you get good at it. And, and let's also map out the consequences of not fixing it.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Because people think, well, how can I stand up to my boss? It's like, that's terrible. I might, I risk my job. It's like, yeah, fair enough. No wonder you're afraid of that. Maybe you should just shut up. Let's see what your life would be like in 10 years if you just shut up. It's like, you know how bad it is now? It's like, it's gonna be way worse than that. Because you're gonna shrink and shrink and shrink. And your boss is gonna become more and more tyrannical. And you're gonna hate every minute of your life. And it's like, you want that, or do you wanna confront your boss or change jobs? It's like, oh, I see. It's like hell here. It's hell here. I get it. I get to pick which of those I'm going to walk down. And that's a relief to people most of the time. It's so funny, because people often think they have...

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  They're paralyzed, because they think that there's a good option.

• 1:02:35Jocko Willink?

  Right, right.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  But one of the things you do as a psychotherapist is say, "Oh, no, you're screwed. No matter which way you turn, it's like a crocodile here, and it's a wolf there, and behind you, there's a hyena." It's like, there's no lambs. You're not in lamb territory. It's all predators. Well, pick your battle. Pick your battle. And then all of a sudden, you're in battle. And then, it doesn't matter that it's a hyena, because you're warrior. So, fine. Bring it on.

• 1:03:05Jocko Willink?

  This is coming to another point that I picked up from the book that... I have a leadership and management consulting company. So I work with companies all the time. And one of the topics has come up a bunch in the past couple of years is, you know, when you're dealing with someone, you're dealing with an employee, and you gotta fire them, and how this is a big, hard conversation, and et cetera, et cetera. No one wants to have those. And I always say, "Look, if you have the hard conversation earlier, it's not so hard." Because all I have to tell you is, "Hey, Jordan, you know, you were late today, and we're not supposed to be late." And you go, "Oh, sorry." And the problem sorts itself out, or it doesn't, and then I gotta escalate.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:41Jocko Willink?

  But what you talk about in the book is... If there's a problem, go attack it. Go get that problem solved. Don't go after that dragon. You know the dragon's in there. Go get it.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Well, your observation is dead on. It's like, and this is the problem with being too nice. Like, I don't regard nice as a virtue, or if it's a virtue, it's a very low-order virtue. Because what nice usually means, what nice usually means is, I don't want to cause conflict now, even though the consequences of the conflict might multiply into the future. So let's say you have an employee that's chronically late, right? And, but you, "I don't want to, I don't really want to disturb them. I don't want to cause any trouble." It's like, well, you're angry about it because they're late and they're not supposed to be. So you're getting all bitter and resentful. Plus, you're not doing them any favors. You know, because you're also telling them that you can be taken advantage of and that their lack of discipline is okay. And then, you know, so then you're going to dislike the employee

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  and you're going to amplify their other errors because of your distaste. And then, and if they are someone who's taking advantage of you, then they're going to take advantage of you a little more, and then a little more, and then a little more, and a little more. And then you're going to have to have a really difficult conversation or put up with it. And that might sink your business, especially if you're a small business owner. So by not confronting the dragon, when it's like two inches high and can only, you know, it's like it can belch out something like a bic lighter. You wait until the thing can inflame the whole room. And then you say, "Oh, my God, like, isn't this hellish?" It's like, well, you knew that there was something to say. You knew it. You knew it a thousand times. And now, you can't just say the one thing.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  You have to say the thousand things, or maybe you have to say the 10,000 things. And it's just destructive in every way. So, yeah, that's not good.

• 1:05:24Jocko Willink?

  Now, here's where I need help with this. So, where I think people might get the idea is, okay, if I'm in a relationship with my wife, and she... Gives serves me dry chicken again. Yeah. Right. Which is, which is a common theme in my household. And actually, thanks to the internet, it's actually changed now because she's gotten thousands of people that have now sent her how to keep the chicken moist. So she does a great job, but for, for, um, you know, we're talking about two decades of my life. We're talking about dry chicken. This is a problem. It is. So, and you know what I did? I didn't say anything because I, I just would drink more water. Yeah. More water at dinner. Yeah. I, I fear that sometimes people say, well, you know what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna run around and I'm gonna tell the truth to everyone all the time on these little things that don't matter.

• 1:06:09Jocko Willink?

  Now, my, my, my actual best example that I've ever heard of this, we, we had a guy on the podcast named Charlie Plum. He was a pilot in Vietnam. He was shot down in, um, and on his last mission of his deployment, he was shot down. He was captured. He was in the Hanoi Hilton for six years. This is the deal that they had amongst their roommates. So they had roommates in a room smaller than we're in right now. And there'd be four of them in there, three of them in there, two of them there, depending on what was going on. If you did something that annoyed me, if Jordan does something that annoys me, we gotta live together. If you do something that annoys me, it's my fault.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  It's my fault for allowing you clip, click, click your nails together, or you pick your nose a lot, or you itch your head, whatever it is that you do that bothers me. It's my problem and I have to absorb it. Because otherwise what we have is we have like rats in a cage that are gonna gnaw each other apart. And, and I thought about that while I was reading the part of the book that was saying like, and you actually also later in the book talk about, hey, you know, are you gonna get in a fight over this little stupid thing? Or are you gonna absorb? And I talk about that a lot as a leader. Yeah. As, as a person in a relationship, hey, there's problems from your boss, you absorb them and you don't pass them down to your people. You know, you, you want us to stay work and or stay late and do a bunch of crazy stuff that we don't think we should be doing?

• 1:07:32Jocko Willink?

  Cool. My guys are gonna go home. I'm gonna absorb that. I'll get it done myself. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna absorb these problems. Now, are there some tertiary effects of course, or secondary effects that now my boss thinks he can get away with that and all those things, but? I just think there's, we have to be careful that we're not just throwing

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely.

• 1:07:50Jocko Willink?

  Spears of truth in people's heads.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, well, I think those are, those are black truths. They're the opposite of white lies, right? So, black truths are truths you use to hurt other people with, right? So, technically, in the moment, the statement is factual, but the context belies it, right? Whereas a white lie, it's like, well, it's a little lie, but you're trying to support a larger truth. Not that white, white lies aren't optimal. You know, it's better not to lie, but sometimes the best you can manage is a white lie. And then maybe that's better.

• 1:08:19Jocko Willink?

  Chicken tastes pretty good.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so then in those sorts of situations, you think, well, first of all, I have some rules of thumb. If someone does something at work that annoys you, it's like, write it off, man. It's like, that's once. It's like, what does that mean? You're having a bad, you're having a bad day, or I'm having a bad day? It's like, doesn't mean anything.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Do it twice, think, it's okay. Write that off, write that off. It's, that's, it's the same issue. It could still just be circumstance and situation. Three times, okay, now there might be grounds for a conversation. You go and say, well, you know, you put your feet up on my desk like a day ago, and that was okay. But then you did it again, and then, like, you did it again. And I'm thinking, it actually happened three times, right? So, there's no denying it, and perhaps that's not optimal. And then you go for the smallest possible victory. That's the next thing is like, I'm not telling you that you're, what would you say? That you lack respect, or that there's something wrong with you.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  What I'm asking is that if you come in my office, it would be better for both of us if your feet stayed on the floor. Is that okay? You know, and, and that's a small thing. You're not going after the person's character, right? You're going after the tiny victory. So, you say to your wife, look, like, I'm thrilled to death that you're cooking me dinner. Really, I'm serious, because, and it could be a hell of a lot worse than it is, you know, and... And maybe I could be more helpful around the kitchen. That's certainly a possibility. But I have got this thing with regards to chicken and maybe it's me, you know, but could we try for like a month to cook it differently and then we'll revisit it. And if I happen to be wrong, like I'll shut the hell up.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  And she might think, okay, well, he is kind of useless around the kitchen and sort of bitchy about the chicken and all of that, but maybe I trust him enough to admit that I made a small mistake and rectify it and we could go along and not have the damn chicken thing hanging over our heads till we're 80.

• 1:10:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, you just in your second example there, you I I tell people this all the time. So you you're coming into my office and you're putting your feet on the desk. What I'll generally do is make it my fault. I generally say, hey, Jordan, I hate to be like a nitpicker.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  But I I'm really freaked out about germs. It's really stupid, but I am. And when you come in and put your feet on my desk, it freaks me out. Can you just do me a favor and not put your foot on your desk when you come here? The same thing with, you know, with the chicken. It's like, hey, you know what? I have a super sensitive palate.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Refined.

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  And I, yeah, it's a super refined, sensitive palate. I'm sorry. But and and I just, yeah, could we maybe figure out another way to cook that? Or could we try, you know? But I'll take the blame for for the situation rather than you're you're disrespectful. Don't put your feet on my desk. This is

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Well, you don't want to adopt more of a position of moral superiority than is absolutely necessary. One of the things I recommend, I don't remember if I wrote it into all rules for life. I think I did. About how to, let's say you're in an intractable argument with your wife about who's the most reprehensible person. Right. Which is where arguments sort of end when they go to hell. I think now you're in one of those arguments and you risk bringing up the past, which is a very, very bad idea. Right. Maybe you're saying something like, you've always been this way. You're this way now and you'll never change and none of it's good. It's like, oh, man, that's a fight because where why are we going to go from there? So one of the things I recommend, and this actually works, is when you're in one of these battles and you can't bloody well get out of it.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  You separate, each go to your room and you sit and think, okay. That person is really wrong and I'd like to give them a good stomping. But then you think, no, I gotta live with them. So that's probably not a good idea, right? Because I don't want to live with someone who's like stomped and angry about it. Because they're gonna take their revenge, like if they have any spirit at all. So you cannot win an argument with your wife. That's just wrong. You can't. You can make peace. You can come up with a solution. But if you win, she loses and then she's the loser. And like, unless you want to have a loser around, that's not a very good strategy. Anyway, so you go to your room and you think, okay. Fundamentally flawed as my wife is, particularly in this particular circumstance,

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  there's probably something stupid I did in the relatively recent past that increased the probability that we're in this little hellish place. And you think, ah, what was it? And you think, oh, God, I really don't want to know. It's like, I really don't want to know this. And so you think, no, I'm gonna figure out where I'm 1% at fault. She's 99% wrong, but I'm 1% at fault. So you sit there and you think, okay, what was it? Then you let your imagination sort of wander over your past stupidities and you think, oh, there was something I did that was like kinda underhanded and devious and crooked and pathetic and weasely. And then you go and you tell her. And she does the same thing, you know? And she's just as irritated about it as you are. And then you think, okay.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  And you say, look, I'm sorry about that. And I know this increased the probability that we're in this like bitchy horrible place. And she does the same thing. And then you think, oh, yeah, well, we're both pathetic losers and we can quit playing like dominance hierarchy. And then maybe you can have a conversation about how to make it better. And that conversation should be bounded too. It's like, the chicken thing is a really good... My father-in-law, who I really like, he used to come... My wife told me this story. He used to come home for lunch, eh? His wife would feed him lunch. And she always used little plates. And it was like, they'd been married for 30 years and one day he had this explosion at the table about the fact that he'd had to eat off these damn little plates for 30 years.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  And, you know, it was much more of a large explosion than it had to be. But it's, these little things actually matter, eh? They actually matter. You have to straighten them out because your life, especially with your wife, is composed of about 50 little things that you do every day. And because you do them every day, they're not little. You can just do the arithmetic, you know, it's like, maybe you don't like the way your wife greets you when you come home. It's like, okay, is that relevant? Is that important? Well, let's say it takes 10 minutes, because you're thinking about it and you're coming home. And then there's the little aftermath, it's 10 minutes. So it's like an hour a week, it's four hours a month, it's 50 hours a year. That's one work week, it's 2% of your life. It's like 2% of your life, right? So that's the math. It's like,

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  if you got 50 of those things right, your whole life would be right. Think, is it worth fighting about? It's like, yeah, it's worth it. Because it's 2% of your life. Or what's 1% even, whatever. And then you think, okay, well, how should people greet themselves when they first come home? It's like, well, maybe it's not quite like your dog greets you, because your dog is like reprehensibly happy to see you, that's just too much, right? Little kid will do that. But maybe you want the person to not be watching TV for the second you enter the house. Maybe they should just stop watching TV and come and say, you know, hello, how was your day? And give you a hug, that would be a good thing. And then maybe you do the same thing to them. And you practice that for like two months, because you're both stupid and it's really hard for you to learn anything.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  And then you've got that down. And the dinner times are like that too, like lots of households, mealtimes are really fractured, which is a bad thing. Or they're bitter. It's like, I'm, here's your goddamn food. It's like, yeah, I'll eat it, but I can't stand it and you can't cook. It's like, okay, that's four and a half hours a day. Right? For your whole life, you think you're gonna like someone like that? Not a bit, man. You're not gonna like them. So you fix that.

• 1:15:59Jocko Willink?

  You actually did tell that whole thing in the book, so that's, it's good, it's in there. And actually, the phrasing that you used when you say if you win an argument, you said something along the lines of, you win, you win that argument, they're the loser.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  Now you win that argument 100 times. Now, in a marriage, you win 10,000 times and you are now married to a loser.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  And that loser, that loser is not going to be someone who makes any effort whatsoever, ever, to be attractive to you or anyone else. Then you'll think, oh, look, look, look, look who I ended up with. It's like, no, look at how you produced. It's like, good work there, guy.

• 1:16:37Jocko Willink?

  And, and that's the, that's the, so, so what you're talking about with this argument thing and you look, go, you separate, you go in your room and you say, okay, what did I do wrong?

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, what did I do wrong? That's annoying.

• 1:16:47Jocko Willink?

  What did I do wrong? And, and interestingly, myself and my, my, my buddy Leif Babin, we wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. And, and the whole premise is you take responsibility for when things go wrong. You say, yeah, this was my fault. So I'll go to clients and I'll be meeting with them and I'll say, you look, when you, something goes wrong with your team, you guys made a mistake, you failed at whatever you're trying to accomplish, you know, you gotta take ownership of it. You stand up and you say, hey, look, this was my fault. And this is what, you know, we're gonna do. And then the people will say, well, you know what? If I did that, my team is so bad.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Jocko Willink?

  That if I did that with my team, you know what they'd say? They'd say, you're right, it is your fault. And, and they look at me like, well, the, so your plan, Jocko, sucks. Cause if I say this is my fault, my team is gonna look at me and say, you're right, it is your fault. And then what do I do? And I, I kinda get a little bit, maybe a little bit frustrated. Because I, I look at them and I say, that's the whole point. It actually is your fault. You're not just saying it to get out of the, the, the problem. You're not just saying it to make excuses for everything that's happening. No, when you say, hey, this is my fault that we got in this argument, and then your, and then your wife says, yeah, it is. You don't say, no, no, no, no, no. No, you say, I know.

• 1:18:04Jocko Willink?

  And you, and the key part is, you say, I know, and this is what I'm gonna do to fix it. And if you're a leader and you say it's my fault and your team says, yeah, you're right, it is your fault, you say, I know. That's what I just said. And here's what I'm gonna do to fix it. So when you take ownership of a problem, it doesn't necessarily make the problem go away. In fact, it doesn't do that at all. Once you admit what the problem is and you take ownership of the problem, then you have to say, here's what I'm gonna do to fix it. Here's my new plan.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Let's say you're a high school kid and you've got a tyrant as a teacher. It's like, well, you could, it could be the case that you have a tyrant as a teacher. And the tyrant is particularly on your case. And you think, well, yeah, that's an awful thing. And this person really is a tyrant. It's like, yeah, but you're not very good at dealing with tyrants. And you might think, well, I shouldn't have to be. It's like, fair enough, man, because who wants tyrants? But the truth of the matter is, is that there is always tyranny. And if you don't know how to... Deal with it. If you don't know how to thrive in the face of tyranny even, then there is something wrong with you. Now, it doesn't mean that there isn't something wrong with the tyrant. It's like, that's self-evident. But it does mean that you aren't who you could be. Because if you were everything you could be, you could manage that situation.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  And it might be, you'd figure out an exit strategy. I mean, who the hell knows what the solution would be? But if you are conceiving yourself as helpless victim, then that's what you are. And I'm not saying that there aren't situations that people find themselves in where there's very...

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Well, it's hard to say, you know, that there's very little you can do. I mean, that woman that we talked about earlier, she was in a pretty damn hopeless situation, and she found something she could do. You know, and I've read these books, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, and Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. I mean, he saw people in some pretty damn dire straits. Like, really, I mean, really, beyond comprehension. And he noticed even in those situations that people still had their choices to make, you know? And I mean, you tread on that ground with extreme hesitancy, because you don't say, "Well, man, if I was thrown in the Gulag, I would have been noble." It's like, no, probably not, man. You would have been a trustee in about 15 minutes. You know, that's the most likely outcome. So you have to be careful about not getting too high on your horse about such things.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  But it isn't obvious when you're out of choices. Most of the time, you have more choices. You haven't used all the choices you have, most of the time. Now, I've seen people in situations I couldn't help them get out of, so... And people die, right? I mean, you have a fatal illness, you have pancreatic cancer, like, you're dead in six months. Your choices are limited. But maybe under those circumstances, you figure out how to put your house in order and be what you can to the people who will be left. It's something like that.

• 1:20:46Jocko Willink?

  For me, and I get a lot of, and I know you get infinitely more than me, but I'll get someone that reports to me a problem or a situation that they're in that seems really bad, and what I've found is...

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  The, the solution that they're looking for, the only solution that they can conceive of is one that is going to provide that solution within a two-week timeframe. Like, that's what we're talking about. If I'm not, if this problem isn't solved in two weeks, then, you know, this is hell. And, and I always kind of report back and say, hey, you're, you're in a job right now that I understand it's bad. I understand it's, your boss is terrible, the team is terrible, the, whatever the case is, or you're in a situation, or your family's this, or whatever. So conceive a plan right now, and it's not going to take two weeks. It might take six months, it might take a year, it might take a year and a half of you saving your money and setting your resume and getting the other skills that you need.

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  If you can, if you can extend your time, and I'll tell you what, when you, when you come up with that plan, when you conceive of that plan, immediately, you have hope. And when you have hope, you can continue on through the miserable existence that you're in, because you know that you're gonna, you've got a plan and you're gonna get your way out of it.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Well, I, I had a client recently, because I've done a lot of consulting as well, it's clinical work, and often my clients come to me, they're high-functioning people, they have decent jobs, but, you know, we make a plan, it's like, well, I'm making seventy-five thousand dollars a year right now, the person says. I said, well, how much? Well, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna prove that. Like, why don't we see if we can triple that? See if we can triple it. It's like, what the hell? You know, maybe we can't, but maybe we can. Some people do make triple that, could be you. Okay, so what's wrong with you? Well, you know, you're not educated enough. All right, so we need to fix that. Your resume isn't in order. You're not sending the damn thing out. It's like, well, then you gotta do baseline statistics. It's like, well, how many times do you have to send out your resume

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  to, to move ahead when you're already in a pretty decent job? Well, the answer isn't ten. The answer is like, you have to send out five a day, every day, for the next two years. And the, the rejection rate will be so close to a hundred percent that that's what it will feel like. Right? But it's a lottery ticket. You only have to win once, so it doesn't matter. If you, if you lose three hundred times, doesn't matter. You just need one hit. So now you gotta prepare yourself, because it's gonna be brutal, because you're sending out all these, you know, resumes to jobs you're not quite qualified enough for, because you're looking to move up. Brace yourself, right? It's gonna be nothing but failure. Nothing but failure. Well, this particular client, I think it took her

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  two years, maybe more, two and a half years of sending out resumes and accelerating her education and and practicing, because she'd get an interview now and then and get very close to it, to get that first move, right? But then she got two more in the next year and she was at triple her salary. But, you know, it's like long-term strategic thinking followed by an implementable plan and then the willingness to tolerate an insane run of ridiculous failures before you move. But I've seen that happen to people. There's no reason that you can't move. You just have to figure out where you want to move. You have to figure out what the criteria are for putting you in that position.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  And then you have to be some measure of insanely persistent, because it's so unlikely, right? The default answer to the question, "Can I have this good job?" is, "Are you out of your mind? Of course not." Right? Right? Well, it is. It's like, and even if you're qualified, it's like, yeah, you and 10 other people. So there's even an element of chance at it, especially at the end, you know, like if you're in the top five, you've done everything you can can do to control that outcome. There's some element of chance that's going to be the determining variable, because, you know, maybe, I don't know, maybe they didn't like the way your suit looked on you and that's the only thing that's differentiating you from the other candidate.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  It's like you also don't want to take that too personally. It's like, well, you hit the top five, you were shortlisted. You're in there, man. You're in there. You're in the game. Do that 10 times, you'll win one of those contests, but you gotta do it 10 times. So, and you know, even in lower-end jobs, like I've I've worked in lots of lower-end jobs.

• 1:25:09Jocko Willink?

  We talked about dishwasher last time you were on.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Dishwasher, exactly.

• 1:25:13Jocko Willink?

  You and I share a strong kinship of dishwasher.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I was dishwasher for a while, but then I was a short-order cook. And, you know, but more than that, more importantly than that, even while I was a dishwasher, once I kind of got the hang of it, which was a lot harder than you might think. Once I got the hang of it, I was valued member of that team. It's like, well, you're a dishwasher. It's like, yeah, that's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that I'm valued member of this team. And that was actually fun. Like, I was just a kid, you know, I was 14. And I was, I did my job properly and I got treated like an adult. It was like, I loved that. I loved that. That was great. And so the fact that I was, are you a dishwasher or are you a 14-year-old adult? Hey, I'm a 14-year-old adult. Hey, I win. I win that.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Dishwasher, no dishwasher. It's like, that's a good game. And I really did like that. I mean, when I look back in my mid-adolescence, it's certainly the case that the, the times that were the best for me when, when I was working in restaurants. Cause I was, I was part of the team, man. So.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  You, you, one of the sections in the book, you talk about, um, I believe the person's name was Lunchbox?

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Lunchbucket.

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  Lunchbucket, Lunchbucket, right.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  Poor old Lunchbucket.

• 1:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Since we're talking about work environments, and there's that certain level of camaraderie, and you actually talk about the SEAL teams in here.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:36Jocko Willink?

  Where you just have this, it's like a non, and I've talked about this before. In the SEAL teams, it's non-stop, hyper-verbal abuse, aggression, around the clock, 24 hours a day. You're in a SEAL platoon, like, that's the, that's life. Any, any mistake that you make, any, any display of weakness is gonna be punched upon and ripped apart. Oh, it's gonna be ripped apart.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  And then if you get all irritated about that, it's even worse, man. Then you're just dead.

• 1:27:07Jocko Willink?

  The nicknames, you, you talked about Lunchbucket, your nickname was Howdy. Howdy Doody, and then it got shortened to Howdy, which was, was, which you felt pretty good about.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  That was better.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Cause you went from Howdy Doody, which is kinda, well, to Howdy, which is kinda cool, right? As a western guy, whatever. But, but the nicknames that, that, that are in the SEAL teams, like, I can't with good conscience repeat them.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  I'm sure that's true.

• 1:27:29Jocko Willink?

  Because they're just, they're just horrible, horrible names. But there's a camaraderie around that. And there's also the, as I was reading what you had written about, these guys working on a railway, railway.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Railway crew, yeah.

• 1:27:40Jocko Willink?

  There's a test, it's a test. It's a test to see where you're at, what you're made of.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  That's right. Can we rely on you? Can you, can you tolerate a little bit of irritation? If the answer to that is no, it's like, well, maybe we don't want you around then, because some irritating things are likely to come down the pipe.

• 1:27:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's, it's not just, um, To me, to me, it proves if you've got someone that can take it, right? It's not just that they can take some random joking insults, like they can, they can

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Take it.

• 1:28:08Jocko Willink?

  They can take it.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what you're testing for. It's like, can you take it? Lunch bucket couldn't, right? Because people would laugh at his lunch bucket and he'd get all upset. It's like, well, you have a stupid lunch bucket. It's like, you know, your mom packed it. How about you laugh at yourself? Yeah, my mom packed this. I know it's kind of stupid. That would have been the end of it. He would have just had to say that.

• 1:28:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  It's like, but I didn't want to hurt her feelings. It's like, oh, okay, you know? Fine, you got your stupid lunch bucket. But no, he couldn't handle that. You know, so yeah, it was, it was horrible and comical to watch at the same time because the level of, and people have written me about that and they said, oh, you know, poor lunch bucket. It's like, because they're all compassionate. I think, no, no, not poor lunch bucket. It's like, clue the hell in, buddy. You had your chance. You know, that was a desirable job, that rail crew job in the summer, because it was high paying. You know, and they weren't easy to come by those jobs. And so the fact that he got hired onto that crew was a real opportunity for him. You could make a pile of money in the summer out working on the rail crew. And all you had to do was take some ribbing with good grace,

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  not suck up to the management too badly, and not have other people do your job. That was all. That was all you had to do. But he couldn't do that. And so he got run off and it was like, grow the hell up, buddy. You know, these guys, when a hundred people are teasing you, then probably they're not wrong.

• 1:29:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when you are getting teased like that as well, well, when you, when you, when you stop reacting, it's no longer fun.

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it also gives you an opportunity to tease back. It's like, because you can show your wit. And one of the things that working class guys in particular, which is what, one of the things I really loved about working class jobs is that they're always looking for some humor. So it's like, if, if person A is teasing person B, that's kind of comical. But if person B comes back with a good comeback, it's like, that's even better, you know? So I think that's a lot of how those jobs are rendered tolerable, right? It's their, their hard, dirty jobs.

• 1:30:05Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Dishwasher is a good example. That's not dangerous, although cooking is, is, you know, you've got to watch your step. I got burned a lot when I was cooking. But what makes those jobs not only tolerable, but even desirable is that you can develop a tremendous amount of camaraderie around them. I've never really experienced that at a professional level job. That just doesn't happen the same way. And it's really, there's a real loss in that. So it's, it's, it's fun to be part of a team that's doing, you know, grubby, hands-on things and, and having a ridiculously entertaining vicious, cruel and evil time while you're doing it. That's very entertaining.

• 1:30:45Jocko Willink?

  The, uh, this new kids book I wrote, so, uh, the kid Mark, he's getting made fun of by this, he's a different kind of bully. He's like a mental bully that, that verbally abuses people. And he gets called plate face by this character. And to, and eventually he gets in trouble for throwing something at the kid because he's calling him plate face, plate face. But eventually the way he befriends the kid is by he, they have to do a self-portrait in class and he draws a picture of himself looking like a plate. And he shows it again, the kid laughs and all of a sudden they're buddies. And it's like, that's what you do. You take away that, you take away the joy of, of being so heated and irritated by people that are making fun of you and you just kill it right there.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Jiu-jitsu in some sense. Well, I had an experience with that about three years ago. I'd put my videos up online and people kept saying that I sounded like Kermit. And I thought, well, one person said it and I thought, well, whatever. But then like five people said it and I thought, oh my God, like this Kermit thing. So then I went and listened to Kermit and I thought, oh no. It's like, it's like really, I really sound like Kermit, you know? And so then, well, then I started to play with it a little bit, you know? I used the puppet and when I, when I, when I went to speak to university students and I made frog jokes and then I made a vid, I made a couple of videos that sort of featured me as a frog. And I mean, it's crazy, right? It's ridiculous. But, but that's, and but, but the teasing never got mean because of that, you know?

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  And the same things happened online to a larger degree as people keep making memes of me. Like and there's, I don't know, there's lots of them. There's way too many to even keep track of. And I was watching that happen and I thought, okay, this is a good thing because there's humor. And wherever there's humor, that's a good thing. And they're making fun of me, but it's gentle. You know, most of it was pokey, you know, like, well, you sound like this damn puppet. What do you think of that? It's like, well, if I had to pick someone to sound like, probably wouldn't be a puppet. But if it had to be a puppet, Kermit's not a bad one. It could be a lot worse. Like, it could be Miss Peggy. It could have been that, you know, so thank God that didn't happen. But the memes have never got vicious because, you know, I'll post them if they're funny and satirical. And then they won't get vicious because they don't have to.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  It's like, can we poke fun at you? It's like, yeah, please do. And the more, the better really, because that'll also help keep my feet on the ground and keep me awake. And plus, it's funny. And like, one of the things about life is that a sense of humor, that's a good thing to arm yourself with because sometimes you just don't have anything other than that. Like my daughter, when she recounts her the horrors of her adolescence, she, she had to have her hip and her ankle replaced because they both deteriorated beyond repair, beyond the possibility of repair. And she was like in agony for, literally for years. It was just awful. She can tell that story in a way that will just make you die of laughter. And it's like, well, thank God for that, because what else do you have in a situation like that, man?

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  If you, if, and sometimes it's so dark that your sense of humor is just about gone. And then you're in real trouble. But lots of times, that's what you've got against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. It's like, you see this with people, especially people who've been through really hard times and that are witty, like, things will be bleak, bleak, bleak, and they'll crack a joke. And you think, well, thank God, man, you can pop up above that and see above it a bit. And, and like, you know, tap it with a bit of irony and thank God for that. So when the comedians start to get silenced, there's real trouble. And that's been happening to some degree in Canada. You know, comedians are increasingly not willing to go speak on university campuses, eh? And that's, when the comedians can't talk, that's a really bad sign.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Cause that's the, that comedy is, that's the triumph of the human spirit over adversity, right? That's why guys in these horrible jobs are often so unbelievably funny. It's like, well, what else do they have? You know, and, and actually, that's a lot to be funny like that. That can... That can move you through a lot of dismal, so.

• 1:34:41Jocko Willink?

  You know, I I'm paying attention to time because I know in case someone can't tell that we're by an airport right now. But to kind of bring this a little bit too close. First of all, we didn't cover anything that I wanted to cover today. So we should all know that. So you're coming back.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  I often do that with my talks. It's like, oh, that's not the talk I planned.

• 1:34:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, your first biblical talk, you covered the first line of Genesis, right? You made it one line deep into an hour. Well done. Well done.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Jocko Willink?

  But one of the things, and I think it's a good note to end on at least a little bit to touch on, because you're kind of talking about it right now is, you know, the last rule is to to pet a cat when you encounter one on the street.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:35:18Jocko Willink?

  It's basically find a little bit of joy in these common things.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  You bet. When when, well, it's it's a chapter about about my daughter's experience. And like, it was brutal, man. It was brutal. She was literally walking around on two broken legs for two years. And she had to take incredibly high doses of opiates and so had all the problems that went along with that. She had to take Ritalin to stay awake. It's like, and she was in all likelihood, she was dying. There's a bunch of reasons for that. And and those were just some of her health problems. Those were, those weren't even the worst ones, strangely enough. So it was bloody brutal, man. And one of the things we told her, and we managed this, thank God, is I told her once the disease started to develop, she had rheumatoid arthritis very, very seriously.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  I said to her when she was a little kid, I said, look, kid, this is going to be rough, man. This is going to be rough. And and here's what you could do to make it worse. It's like, use your illness as an excuse. You do that at your peril. You do that a hundred times. You will not be able to tell the difference between suffering that stops you from moving forward and an excuse for not living, and you'll be done. I said, never, never, never. Use your illness as an excuse. Like, if you can't do it. You can't do it. You know, we had a good experience with that. It's written in the book when we we bought her a scooter because she couldn't use public transportation and we were all freaked out about that because like, well, she has damaged bones and, you know, a broken hip and

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  all of this. It's like, you're gonna buy that kid a scooter? Really? It's like, well, what are you gonna do? Keep her in her bedroom? You want, think that's a good idea? Tell her she can't go out in the world? It's like, have the damn scooter. So after a while, she had to get a license for it. There's a licensing procedure and to do that, she actually had to ride a motorbike. And so she trained to ride the motorbike like, not very long after she had her hip replaced. I think it was a six weeks, something like that. So, of course, we're all freaked out about that, too, because it's like, oh, man, she has to ride a motorbike and she has this hip. And it's like, what are we gonna do? And she went and she did the motorcycle, the first one, but she dropped the bike a couple of times and some kid wiped out and rolled like thirty

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  feet and that kind of freaked her out unsurprisingly. And and so the second day, she went with her mom to do the motorcycle training. She also got trained to ride a motorcycle. And the second day, she woke up and she said, I don't think I can do this. And we thought, well, you know, that's understandable. It's like, I can understand that. And we talked through it. We said, look, here's what to do, man. It's like, yeah, you can't do it. We understand why you're afraid of it. You can't hold the bike up that well. But why don't you just go? Like, go in the car with your mom and see how you feel when you get there. Because you'll get close, you get right up to it. Maybe you can say no, and you have to sit in the car and like, that's life.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  And and we get it. But maybe you don't have to. And she went there. So she thought that was okay. And she went there and she picked up the damn motorbike and got her license. And everybody cheered at the end. And then she could drive her goddamn scooter around and thank God for that. Because, you know, she used to go out there and she put on her helmet and she'd go on her scooter and she was like, ready to go out in the world. And so that's like, that's the difference between making your kids safe and making them strong. And it was touch and bloody go, you know, because it could have easily been that she would have been in a little accident with her motorcycle and broken her leg. And then we would have thought, oh, what kind of horrible parents are we? She's already got problems and we put her on a damn scooter in the middle of the city. It's like, well, You're gonna be competent or you're gonna be safe?

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  It's like, there's nothing safer than competence. And so, and it was great for her because it was just one more act of courage, you know? And, and it, and she loved that damn scooter. She had it for like six years and it was a really good idea. Risky as hell, but really a good idea. So, yep.

• 1:39:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, again, I'm looking at the clock. We gotta get you out of here. Um, first of all, 12 Rules for Life, um, and Antidote to Chaos. That's out right now. It's number one on Amazon in America, UK, Canada, everywhere. That's pretty awesome.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, yeah, struck wordless by it.

• 1:39:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, everyone should just get it. Um, and because we didn't talk about anything I wanted to talk about today, you, you come back, we'll do this book and everyone likes to read the books if I, if they can before I do the podcast on them. So this will give everyone a chance to read it, which will be awesome. Uh, any other things?

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Well, I should say, I've got this online program called self-authoring. And, uh, I'm offering your viewers a, and listeners a 20% discount. That helps you write out an autobiography so you can figure out like what you haven't sorted out about your life. It helps you write an analysis of your virtues and faults so you can rectify the faults and capitalize on the virtues. And helps you make a plan for the future. And I would say to your listeners, don't be afraid to do it badly. Because a bad plan, a bad account for yourself and a bad plan is way better than no account for yourself and no plan. It's way better. So do it, do it badly. It'll, it'll help orient you in your life.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  And we have a preponderance of, of scientific data showing, for example, that people who've done the future authoring portion of this, that's the plan. Are like thirty percent more likely to stay in university. Has an overwhelming effect. And it works best on people who are doing worst, which is really quite cool. So there's that. I have a personality test at UnderstandMyself.com. And you can go there and get an analysis of ten aspects of your personality. It's kind of a harsh test. Like it'll tell you actually what you're like. And it'll probably make you angry. You know, because maybe not, but it probably will. But it'll tell you, it'll help you figure out what jobs you might be suited for.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  But it'll also tell you where you're weak and could be stronger. And so that's bitter medicine. But, um, but it's better to know. It's better to know because then you can do something about it. So I would say those are two useful things. And, and, um, I'd encourage people to, they're inexpensive. Give them a try. They'll, they're helpful.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  And on top of that, you've got your podcast.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:41:42Jocko Willink?

  You've got your YouTube channel, which has hundreds of hours worth of lectures.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:41:49Jocko Willink?

  And is fantastic. JordanPeterson.com as well. And, well, I just wanted to thank you for coming on the podcast again. But more important, I want to thank you for continuing to do what you do. I know it's hard work and I know it's taxing on you and on your family life and all that.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it beats suffering stupidly.

• 1:42:10Jocko Willink?

  It does indeed. And I know for a fact that you're having incredibly positive impact all over the world. Getting people everywhere to try to at least.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  Grow the hell up. Grow the hell up.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  To grow up, to speak the truth.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:25Jocko Willink?

  Make themselves and make thereby the world a better place.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  Wouldn't that be good? It could be a better place. That would be good if we could manage that. Yeah.

• 1:42:35Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:42:36Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for coming on.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  You bet.

• 1:42:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, we have excused Dr. Jordan Peterson from the... Is this a recording studio? No, we're in a rented office.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  Make shift.

• 1:42:48Jocko Willink?

  Make shift. Jordan had to go, catch a plane, and

• 1:42:55Jocko Willink?

  continue to get out there and make the world a better place. Good for him.

• 1:42:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:58Jocko Willink?

  Good for us. And Echo, speaking of making the world a better place.

• 1:43:02Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:43:04Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you can let us know how we might be able to make our world a little bit better.

• 1:43:10Speaker 02

  Sure, of course. Yeah, first thing we can do is stay on the path. And part of staying on the path is maintaining our physical capability and competent... compet- competency.

• 1:43:26Jocko Willink?

  Competency.

• 1:43:28Speaker 02

  Is it competence or competency?

• 1:43:30Jocko Willink?

  Competency.

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  We're gonna maintain that. That's what we're gonna do on the path. So, we had Jocko's supplements, obviously, we already know. If you don't know, krill oil, joint warfare. So Jocko super krill oil, that's a krill oil supplement.

• 1:43:46Jocko Willink?

  So good.

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  Joint warfare is the glucosamine, chondroitin, and curcumin.

• 1:43:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:43:54Speaker 02

  Very good things for your joints.

• 1:43:55Jocko Willink?

  We, you know, at some point, we'll go through everything that's in there.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:00Jocko Willink?

  Not today.

• 1:44:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:02Jocko Willink?

  We'll do something so that, because I don't want to sit here and talk about, but it's good.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's good.

• 1:44:08Jocko Willink?

  Use it.

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, use it. The, and it's not the kind where it's good because it's generally healthy to take these things, which it is, but that's not the main push, in my opinion.

• 1:44:22Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:44:23Speaker 02

  The main thing is that if your joints are kinda, kinda off, like sore, do jiu-jitsu a lot, do anything. Bro, if you... If you do

• 1:44:36Speaker 02

  brick laying, what is that mason?

• 1:44:38Jocko Willink?

  Masonry.

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  If you're, yeah, like just from, you know, back, elbows. And then you start taking this, you'll see, you'll feel that difference.

• 1:44:48Jocko Willink?

  You will.

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  Specifically, yeah. And it's generally healthy. Anyway, maintain the joints, maintain the competency of your joints with Jocko Super Krill Joint Warfare. Take them every day. That's what I do in the routine. Also, discipline pre-workout. It's a pre-workout for me.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's a pre-mission for me.

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  It's a pre-mission, straight up.

• 1:45:09Jocko Willink?

  Pre-mission cognitive.

• 1:45:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:12Jocko Willink?

  Enhancer.

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:13Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you, the only downfall of it right now, well, there's a couple. Number one, it tastes delicious, so you want to drink a lot of it. Number two, the other day, the other day I drank a lot of it and then I had to go and give a speech.

• 1:45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:26Jocko Willink?

  I had to use the restroom right before I went on stage, which I don't like.

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Jocko Willink?

  Just be careful.

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  Well, that's a general thing.

• 1:45:33Jocko Willink?

  I know, I know.

• 1:45:34Speaker 02

  It doesn't have to be Jocko discipline. You can do that with water.

• 1:45:37Jocko Willink?

  Be careful.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you want to be careful. But didn't you eat some of it? Like, oh, can we?

• 1:45:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, I ate some of it today. It's, see, I'm trying to avoid that.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, see, so I get it.

• 1:45:46Jocko Willink?

  I just took a mouth, a little scoop.

• 1:45:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:48Jocko Willink?

  And it's not too bad. In fact, you know what?

• 1:45:53Jocko Willink?

  You know when you get like a shot of some really nasty alcohol? And people do it.

• 1:45:57Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:45:58Jocko Willink?

  But it gives you like a little huh.

• 1:45:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:46:00Jocko Willink?

  Kind of gave you some of that.

• 1:46:01Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 1:46:02Jocko Willink?

  When you take just, when you eat the straight powder.

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  Which I'm now doing apparently. It's gives you a little bit, it gives you a little, not only you get the, the effects of what's in it, but you get a little bit of a huh.

• 1:46:13Speaker 02

  The main line.

• 1:46:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:14Speaker 02

  Deal. Yeah, that's kind of like, yeah, when you're a kid, you buy the little Kool-Aid, you know, when you, before you make the Kool-Aid.

• 1:46:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  You get like a little.

• 1:46:20Jocko Willink?

  You try that stuff straight.

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:22Jocko Willink?

  Kind of what it's like, only it's not quite as horrible as that. It's better than that.

• 1:46:27Speaker 02

  It's better than Kool-Aid, huh?

• 1:46:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, definitely better than Kool-Aid.

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  Jocko made it taste good. He's into the taste good stuff. Anyway, it's called, it's called discipline.

• 1:46:37Jocko Willink?

  It's called discipline.

• 1:46:37Speaker 02

  Straight up. Yeah, you'll, you'll see it. Anyway, get it at originmaine.com. And also at originmaine.com. You get, that's where you can get your ghee. So you don't have to, well, you can still ask me what ghee you get.

• 1:46:51Jocko Willink?

  No, don't ask anymore.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  No, no, ask, good. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, and this is what I'll tell you. Go to Origin, pick a ghee from there, whichever one you want. Plenty color, not plenty colors, but the legit color.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  You, I have white. I have one blue gi that I never use. All I have is white. I have a black gi, someone gave me a black gi and it's cool, but I've never used it, but. Cause a lot of people ask me that too. What color should I get? What color should you get?

• 1:47:18Jocko Willink?

  I am very traditional and I use the white gi, but I do have a death gi that's black.

• 1:47:24Speaker 02

  Black, yeah.

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  But some schools, they don't even allow other colors than white and blue.

• 1:47:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true. But Pete says black is the, is the number one seller. Like if just all colors, black. Now, can you compete IBJJF with a black gi?

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:47:41Jocko Willink?

  I forget. But here's what we were talking about. When you're a little kid and you think about martial arts, what do you want to be?

• 1:47:50Speaker 02

  The ninja?

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  You want to be a ninja?

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:52Jocko Willink?

  So now you got a thirty six year old guy or a twenty eight year old guy. And he finally, he's feeling kinda ninja-ish.

• 1:47:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:00Jocko Willink?

  Cause he's doing the jujitsu.

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:02Jocko Willink?

  And he's, you take that one extra step, now you got a black gi.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  Boom ninja.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:06Speaker 02

  In a, in a matter of speaking. Yeah. And I, I actually felt that that's part of the reason why I don't get a black gi. Cause I, I kinda wanted like not like.

• 1:48:15Jocko Willink?

  There's an old Charles Bronson movie.

• 1:48:16Speaker 02

  Feathers. What do you mean?

• 1:48:17Jocko Willink?

  An old Charles Bronson movie called The Mechanic.

• 1:48:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And there's a, there's a, there's a scene where the traditional karate guy is gonna fight a guy that's got some new tricks up his sleeve.

• 1:48:29Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:48:30Jocko Willink?

  And the traditional karate guy has to get nuts on him.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:34Jocko Willink?

  But he's in a, just a plain white gi.

• 1:48:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the tradition.

• 1:48:38Jocko Willink?

  And it, and Charles Bronson too.

• 1:48:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:40Jocko Willink?

  So I'm just, you know.

• 1:48:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:42Jocko Willink?

  Holding the line.

• 1:48:43Speaker 02

  Well strangely, I mainly stick to white because it's kinda, that's the, the main, like I'm not doing too much with the, with the cool black one. Cause let's face it, the, the black one, like I said about being a ninja and it looks cool, but it does. It looks really cool. And, but I didn't wanna roll in and be like, and they think, oh, you think you're, you think you're all cool with your black gi kinda thing, even though.

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  The, the thing is, I think it's progressed beyond that.

• 1:49:07Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:49:08Jocko Willink?

  It's beyond that now. You, you are not, you are not, uh, standing out at all when you have a black gi. Now, you might be, if you go to a traditional, you know, school that has only white gees, yeah, you're gonna stand out. You come into Victory MMA and Fitness, you could be wearing a purple gi, no one's gonna care. No one's even gonna look at you a second.

• 1:49:24Speaker 02

  Camouflage gi.

• 1:49:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no one cares.

• 1:49:26Speaker 02

  They might be like, dang, that's a cool camouflage gi.

• 1:49:27Jocko Willink?

  They might say that. They might just put a chokehold on you and get after it.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there it is. I would say, okay, if they're saying, hey, Jocko, Echo, what gi should I get? What color should I get? We know Origin. What color should I get? Eh, ask your school first.

• 1:49:45Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:49:45Speaker 02

  Cause some they don't allow.

• 1:49:46Jocko Willink?

  Good point.

• 1:49:46Speaker 02

  You're gonna buy your cool black gi, or there's like a army green. Is there army green?

• 1:49:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:52Speaker 02

  You're gonna buy it, and they look dope, and you're solid. You're ready to go, and you come in, they say you can't train with that. You can't have that. So, ask your school first. If they allow all colors, then that one's up to you, bro.

• 1:50:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  But, but the, the point is with asking what color is that, I think. I think that they're like, hey, is there like a violation if I get this cool black one? And you answered it, yeah, now?

• 1:50:14Jocko Willink?

  No, no.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  Unless your school does.

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  It's literally no factor.

• 1:50:18Speaker 02

  Literally no factor.

• 1:50:19Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:50:20Speaker 02

  So they got a lot. Anyway, originmaine.com, that's where you get them. Also, onnit.com slash Jocko. This is where I get the kettlebells. The dope kettlebells.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  You didn't talk about rash, rash guards.

• 1:50:35Speaker 02

  Oh, at Origin?

• 1:50:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:37Jocko Willink?

  And because, the reason that it popped into my mind.

• 1:50:40Speaker 02

  Cause they have spats now.

• 1:50:41Jocko Willink?

  Cause they have spats now. The first run of spats are green and like some other color.

• 1:50:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yellow.

• 1:50:49Jocko Willink?

  Lime green.

• 1:50:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:50Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:50:50Speaker 02

  Interesting, yeah.

• 1:50:52Jocko Willink?

  Don't worry. I sent Pete a text. Now, I'm not a spats wearing dude. I'm not wearing tights, not happening.

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  Nothing against people that do. There's some, there's some crazy jujitsu guys out there that are wearing tights like you read about.

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 1:51:05Jocko Willink?

  But, I said, I said, I said, hey Pete, I'm not wearing tights.

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:10Jocko Willink?

  I know a lot of people that do. Make some black ones or something else.

• 1:51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:14Jocko Willink?

  And he said, got it.

• 1:51:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:16Jocko Willink?

  You can get, obviously the rash guards are good to go.

• 1:51:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:20Jocko Willink?

  But now you can also get.

• 1:51:24Jocko Willink?

  Spats that are not.

• 1:51:25Speaker 02

  So we're sticking with spats.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  We're sticking with spats. Well, we figured out the root of spats, right?

• 1:51:29Speaker 02

  They were dope. Yeah.

• 1:51:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a good thing. It's not, I thought it would root back to, you know, some.

• 1:51:34Speaker 02

  Ballerina.

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, some ballerina thing. No, it's war.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:38Jocko Willink?

  It's what you wore on your legs when you were a cavalryman.

• 1:51:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:51:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so we can say spats. It's been approved.

• 1:51:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, in football, it's the same thing.

• 1:51:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:45Speaker 02

  It's you, you tape your shoe and your.

• 1:51:48Jocko Willink?

  So we're good.

• 1:51:48Speaker 02

  Ankle. Yeah, fully. Interesting color choice. Yeah, the first one. Here's the thing, though. Yeah, about the spats.

• 1:51:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:56Speaker 02

  Some colors you don't see, like, like if I was like, hey, I'm, I'm gonna wear this lime green and yellow thing, whatever shirt, spats, whatever. And you'd be like lime green, yellow, that just doesn't even sound good. I'm looking at these two colors. I don't think that's gonna look good. But then you put it on a shirt or spats or something, and then you put it on, you're like, oh dang, that kind of works for some reason. I'm not saying lime green and yellow does that. I'm just saying certain color.

• 1:52:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:20Speaker 02

  Combinations are like that.

• 1:52:21Jocko Willink?

  Here's the interesting thing. Pete's my bro, right?

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:52:24Jocko Willink?

  Me, Pete.

• 1:52:25Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:52:25Jocko Willink?

  Literally, the first time I had a, um, uh, Skype conversation with Pete. My wife's like, it sounded like you were talking to yourself, right?

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:34Jocko Willink?

  Cause we, and we had a four hour conversation, by the way.

• 1:52:36Speaker 02

  Dang, bro.

• 1:52:37Jocko Willink?

  Now with that, that being said.

• 1:52:39Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:52:40Jocko Willink?

  I wouldn't have made spats that look like the first spats that he had come out with in a million years. Now here's, now here's the funny thing. I can't even say, I can't even say, hey, Pete, don't, you know, no one's gonna like those. You know why? Cause my sense of fashion.

• 1:52:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:55Jocko Willink?

  Is so off. My sense of fashion is nonexistent.

• 1:52:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's.

• 1:52:59Jocko Willink?

  It's literally nonexistent.

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  It would be nonexistent if you even had one.

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, okay, that's right. Well, no, it's nonexistent.

• 1:53:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you had one, it would be. Get it? It's like double nonexistent.

• 1:53:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, well, so that's why I can't even say, hey, Pete, I can't say, I can't make a blanket statement like, Pete, people won't like those.

• 1:53:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:17Jocko Willink?

  I can't even say that because I have no idea.

• 1:53:20Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 1:53:20Jocko Willink?

  So I just said, what I do know. Is people would definitely like some black ones.

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, that's pretty safe to say.

• 1:53:27Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't mind the green one, by the way, but.

• 1:53:31Jocko Willink?

  There you go. You even, we've had this stuff. We've had issues like this.

• 1:53:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:53:35Jocko Willink?

  Where you make things that I, I just don't.

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm not, I'm, yeah, they're unapproved.

• 1:53:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:39Jocko Willink?

  Unapproved across the board.

• 1:53:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I just know you just kinda just don't know.

• 1:53:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I, and I say, okay, you know, I don't know, that's, I gotta stay humble over here.

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:47Jocko Willink?

  I can't claim to, claim to have any.

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  Any.

• 1:53:51Jocko Willink?

  Footing to stand on at all when it comes to fashion.

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  Fashion.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  Any kind. Other than haircuts, I'm pretty good with those. You know what?

• 1:53:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:59Jocko Willink?

  Shove your head.

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:54:01Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 1:54:02Speaker 02

  Next question. So, yeah, again, originmaine.com. There's a lot of cool stuff on those hoodies and stuff too, by the way.

• 1:54:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:10Speaker 02

  Which, and this is a, this is a bi, not biased, uh, what do you call it? Subjective. When I was wearing the full Origin sweat suit.

• 1:54:19Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:54:19Speaker 02

  At home.

• 1:54:23Speaker 02

  I laid down on the couch, just took a break, whatever. I don't normally do that.

• 1:54:26Jocko Willink?

  Took a break from what? Cruising?

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  Ah, you know. You know, doing whatever it is I was doing, took a break, laid down on the couch, full sweat suit on Origin. It was the most comfortable moment I had in recent memory.

• 1:54:40Jocko Willink?

  And just so everyone knows, if you're talking about Echo's comfort levels, they're already exceedingly high.

• 1:54:46Speaker 02

  It's saying a lot. Yeah. I know that, you know, comfort, I know about it and very familiar with it. And yeah, it was, I'm not saying a lot. So, yeah. There it is. Okay, back to Onnit. The kettlebells that I get, whole set. Almost the whole set. Primal bells, zombie bells. Legend bells. They're the kettlebells. That's where you get them, Onnit.com slash Jocko. Also, they got some cool maces on there. Jocko is the mace, right?

• 1:55:17Jocko Willink?

  I do. Yeah.

• 1:55:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:18Jocko Willink?

  Twenty pounder. You think 20 pounds is not heavy?

• 1:55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:22Jocko Willink?

  It's heavy.

• 1:55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:23Jocko Willink?

  Really heavy.

• 1:55:24Speaker 02

  That's one of those things, and we kind of talked about it before, where you weight, like weight, like this many pounds, or, you know, kilos, whatever. It's not all created equal. Like, if it's shaped in a certain form.

• 1:55:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Speaker 02

  Or formless, or whatever, that's way different.

• 1:55:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  Like, my daughter, I forget how much she even weighs now, like 53 pounds or something like that. 50 pounds is nothing, as far as lifting goes.

• 1:55:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  Lift it. Yeah, try lift her when she don't want to be lifted, but.

• 1:55:53Jocko Willink?

  She's got base.

• 1:55:54Speaker 02

  She has a good base. She's like 150 pounds. Nonetheless, the point there is with these maces, and there's other cool stuff on there, if you want to vary up your workout, make it interesting. Unlike Jocko's workout, make it, make yours interesting. If you want to do that, you don't have to. There's some really good stuff on there. Check them out. And, you know, if you want something, get something. Also, when you get Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules.

• 1:56:24Speaker 02

  Just call it 12 Rules.

• 1:56:25Jocko Willink?

  12 Rules. 12 Rules for Life and Antidote to Chaos. Jordan B. Peterson.

• 1:56:30Speaker 02

  It's 12 Rules for Life is like, it seems like a big claim, you know?

• 1:56:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:37Speaker 02

  But they're pretty, they're pretty solid.

• 1:56:39Jocko Willink?

  They're pretty solid.

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Nonetheless, that, uh, that is a good one. Um, when you get that one, and any of, any of the other books, don't worry. I organized them all for you. Go to Jocko Podcast.

• 1:56:51Jocko Willink?

  Somebody said the other day on the internet, said to me, oh, you should have a book club. We got a book club. Go to Jocko Podcast dot com and click on books. All the books are there.

• 1:57:02Speaker 02

  That's the club right there.

• 1:57:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Don't have to ask me about the book club. The books are there. All right.

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. We got it organized for you by episode, by the way.

• 1:57:10Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  Little brief description. Uh, click on there. Boom. Get your book from there. It's a good way to support. Tixie Amazon.

• 1:57:19Speaker 02

  You can get your book if you are doing other shopping, hey, carry on, just do your thing. No one's gonna stop you from that, of course.

• 1:57:25Jocko Willink?

  And that supports the podcast.

• 1:57:27Speaker 02

  Good way to support, small action, big reaction. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. That one seems obvious, I know, but it's a good way to support. Just a little good way to support.

• 1:57:40Jocko Willink?

  And write a review, a funny review. Yeah, I'm go like once a week now, I go and read all the new reviews.

• 1:57:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:46Jocko Willink?

  Looking for gems.

• 1:57:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:48Jocko Willink?

  There's some gems in there.

• 1:57:50Speaker 02

  Straight up gems. Yeah, if you feel like it, um, yeah, so, so subscribe, write a review if you want, subscribe to YouTube. We have a YouTube channel.

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  If you didn't know that already, um, that's where the video version of this podcast resides. You like that?

• 1:58:07Jocko Willink?

  Good job.

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  Also excerpts on there, if you don't want to listen or watch, should I say, the whole episode or episodes? Got some excerpts on there, you can just watch little, um, you know, little excerpts, little tidbits of the podcast, little ideas, little lessons, tips of advice in shorter form. You know, when you take a break at work or whatever.

• 1:58:30Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 1:58:31Speaker 02

  Not that you should be watching YouTube at work, but if you are, you watch this, boom, get back to work, more effective, probably. Probably. Also some other stuff on there, we're gonna try to slowly add more and more, what should I say, content? Not just for the sake of adding content, by the way. Cause I make videos from time to time.

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  Very spaced out.

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  You know, they're, you know, trying to get them done, nonetheless, uh, we're gonna put more, there's gonna be more and more on there. It's a new year, right? What's February now?

• 1:59:02Jocko Willink?

  Talk is cheap, bro.

• 1:59:06Speaker 02

  Anyway, moving on, also, Jocko has a store, it's called Jocko's store. Jocko's store.com.

• 1:59:14Speaker 02

  That this is the website, online store where you can get Discipline equals Freedom shirts,

• 1:59:25Speaker 02

  rash guards, the Victory MMA and Fitness shirt that Jocko always wears, like Einstein, by the way, I think Einstein wore the same thing every day too. Is that why you do it?

• 1:59:36Jocko Willink?

  No, I do it because it's simple, not because Einstein does it.

• 1:59:38Speaker 02

  Actually, they say that this is you and Einstein wear the same thing every day for the same reason. Is what they say.

• 1:59:43Jocko Willink?

  Less decision making.

• 1:59:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, because your decision making, you know, resources.

• 1:59:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't really believe all that. I just believe, hey, I don't feel like sitting around thinking about what I'm gonna wear in the morning. Just grab the, I have a shirt drawer, guess what's in it? Shirts, pull it out, put it on.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  Right, you have bigger things to make decisions about and think about. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's what I read too. So you guys, you and Einstein are like, I don't want to say obsessed, you're like, you're just real into

• 2:00:11Speaker 02

  more important things. So what you wear, that's, that's, that shouldn't take up too many of your decision making resources.

• 2:00:19Jocko Willink?

  The thing about Jocko's store, I don't know if you've ever made this clear, well, maybe you have, but if you want to support the podcast, that's a good way to support the podcast. For a while, people wanted us to do a thing where you donate money.

• 2:00:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:32Jocko Willink?

  And I said, no. People want to support, we're not gonna ask for money and give them nothing.

• 2:00:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:41Jocko Willink?

  We'll give them something, a T-shirt, a hat, a sticker.

• 2:00:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, good stuff, by the way. It's not the shirt that makes the man, it's the man that makes the shirt.

• 2:00:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, okay.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  There you go. Nonetheless, there are.

• 2:00:54Jocko Willink?

  Are you saying that because you're the one that makes these shirts?

• 2:00:57Speaker 02

  I think it's, it's a different thing. I think I saw it on the movie, uh, what was it? The one with Sean Connery and Catherine Zeta, Catherine Zeta Jones.

• 2:01:06Jocko Willink?

  Continue.

• 2:01:06Speaker 02

  Remember that one?

• 2:01:07Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:01:07Speaker 02

  Remember? They had to steal something?

• 2:01:09Jocko Willink?

  Continue.

• 2:01:10Speaker 02

  Right, you know what movie I'm talking about. Anyway, there's some hoodies on there, some hats on there. We're restocking. Actually, I'm doing a thing because the people email, because you know, there's stuff out of stock and then,

• 2:01:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:22Speaker 02

  Oh, guess what?

• 2:01:23Jocko Willink?

  Not never again.

• 2:01:27Speaker 02

  I'm hesitant to say never say never, but yeah, never again.

• 2:01:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so everything is in stock right now?

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  Not necessarily.

• 2:01:35Jocko Willink?

  Okay, come back when you're ready, okay? In the meantime, just keep doing your lane.

• 2:01:39Speaker 02

  The system that I'm working on is all very close to being complete.

• 2:01:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:01:44Speaker 02

  So they'll be available. And some new stuff's gonna be on there. Also rash guards on there. For jujitsu or for anything physical, you know, you're doing physically, you wanna keep your range in motion, you know, whatever. Anyway, you know what rash guards are, they're, they're pretty dope. Um, also women's stuff on there. And I am not saying, I say this a lot, I'm gonna say it again, I'm not saying buy something, I'm saying go on there. Just look, if you don't want anything, then don't get something. But if you do want something, get something. It's a good way to support also.

• 2:02:16Jocko Willink?

  That's really, uh, deep.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  You know, I'm trying to keep.

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:02:21Jocko Willink?

  If you want something, get something. If you don't want something, don't.

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  Alright, cool. We'll abide by that.

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Is it kinda like, you know how like when people say it is what it is?

• 2:02:32Speaker 02

  You know, they say, "Hey, it is what it is."

• 2:02:35Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  Jocko's not gonna be anyone but Jocko, you know, Jocko's Jocko, right? Same thing. Then why do you say that, you know, kinda, I say that for the same reason. Also, psychological warfare. If you know what that is, it's an album with tracks, Jocko tracks. Not Jocko playing the ukulele or the violin or what else do you play?

• 2:02:56Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't play the violin. I can't really play the drums too well either.

• 2:03:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. But you play stuff. Nonetheless, it's none of that. It's Jocko giving you, so each track is Jocko, Jocko, Jocko's, how should I say, tips. Not really tips. They're kinda tips on how to eliminate the weakness that you're feeling at any given moment on your path, on your campaign, on the campaign against weakness. That's what it is. So if you're about to skip your workout because A, you don't feel like it. B, you don't think you have time or something like this. Or usually it's because you don't feel like it. Because you worked out yesterday, you're kinda sore, like you were gonna do squats today, but you did a bunch of burpees yesterday. So your lower back and your.

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  Quads, they're kind of sore. So you're like, maybe I'll just do it tomorrow. No. So all you gotta do is like, put in psychological warfare. Listen to, there's a track for that and he'll, he'll just explain, just in his own little Jocko way. Explain why you shouldn't do that, why you should just do the workout. And after you listen to it, you'll be like, dang, that makes sense. And guess what? Boom. All of a sudden you're doing the workout. You didn't skip it. That's what you do.

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  If you like that, you can also get Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. On iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, other MP3 platforms. It's not on Audible. It's not on Audible. It's available as an album, actually two albums. Also you get Jocko White T. Which as everybody now knows, will increase your deadlift to a minimum of 8,000 pounds. Been proven over and over again. Everyone knows it now. It's really not impressive anymore. Since so many people are hitting that 8,000 pound max. Books, Jordan B Peterson, Maps of Meaning is his first book. It's old, it's big, it's expensive.

• 2:04:52Jocko Willink?

  I have it. It's, it's a great read. Also 12 Rules for Life, An Antidote Chaos. Way of the Warrior Kid. So Way of the Warrior Kid.

• 2:05:04Jocko Willink?

  Kid's book, teaching kids to how get, how to get on the path. Now. There's a new book coming out, a new Warrior Kid book. It is available now on Amazon. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid, Mark's Mission. It's a follow-up. The first book was fifth grade, the second book, sixth grade. Mark's getting a little older. Guess what? He's still got some problems to solve and he's going to solve them. So you can order that.

• 2:05:33Jocko Willink?

  Also, as I already mentioned, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. That is available.

• 2:05:41Jocko Willink?

  If you want to get bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, more disciplined, better, get that book and then implement it because you can get the book and sit, sit around and, and play video games. It's not going to make you any of those things. You have to actually get it. You have to read it. You have to implement it. So that works. Oh, also with the warrior kids. Don't forget you can get some warrior kids soap, basically.

• 2:06:07Jocko Willink?

  I got some. Did you get some? Yeah. Yeah. It's good to go. Irish Oaks Ranch.com. Young Aiden, who's a warrior kid, making his own soap, business owner, age 12. Check that out.

• 2:06:23Jocko Willink?

  Extreme Ownership, book by myself and my brother Leif Babin. It's about combat leadership. It's about how to lead. That's what it's about. And people think that's a simple thing. It's not. You even heard Jordan B. Jordan B. Peterson say today, leadership is very complicated. He's right. So Extreme Ownership will help you in your leadership skills, tactics, and strategies. Also, if you need leadership guidance and direction at your company, at your business, or at your team, beyond what we give you here on this podcast and beyond the books, I have a leadership and management consulting company. It's called Echelon Front,

• 2:07:05Jocko Willink?

  where we will get the leadership you have and thereby your whole organization aligned and moving forward together. It's me, it's Leif Babin, it's JP Denell, it's Dave Burke. You can email [email protected], or you can go to the website, echelonfront.com. Also, there is the muster. This is a leadership seminar that hits you like an atom bomb.

• 2:07:37Jocko Willink?

  So the muster, everyone that's been to it, there's nothing else like it. The people that work at the hotels we've done it at have said there's nothing else like it. So it's awesome. If you want to come to it, we're only doing two musters this year. We don't have time to do more. We're doing one in Washington DC, May 17th and 18th. That's for the East Coast people. May 17th and 18th, Washington DC. And then we're going to do San Francisco, October 17th and 18th. That's for your West Coast people. Those are the only two musters that we're doing this year. We're not doing Vancouver. We're not doing Atlanta. We're not doing Memphis. We're not doing Tampa. Those are all great cities, but we're not going to do a muster there.

• 2:08:18Jocko Willink?

  We've had four musters already. San Diego, New York City, San Diego again, and Austin, Texas. All the musters that we've done have sold out. These two that we're doing this year are going to sell out as well. So if you want to come, register at extremeownership.com. We will see you there. And until then, if you want to get on the path with us, you can find us. We'll be cruising on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on that's face the booky boha.

• 2:08:56Jocko Willink?

  Jordan Peterson is at Jordan B Peterson. He's also got the YouTube channel, Jordan Peterson. He's got jordanpeterson.com. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thanks to all of you. I know a lot of men and women in uniform, listen to this podcast. I hear from you all the time. Well, we would not have this podcast if it wasn't for you overseas, holding the line and keeping evil at bay. And to the people in uniform here at home, police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, and the rest of you first responders. Thank you for keeping us safe inside our borders.

• 2:09:44Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else out there moving through life and that's good, that's fine, but I recommend you don't just move through life. I recommend you move down the path. Get stronger and faster and smarter and better every day. Aim to be the best and as Jordan Peterson writes so eloquently in his book, always place your becoming above your current being.

• 2:10:22Jocko Willink?

  In other words, get up and get after it. Until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.