Stop Wasting Your Time: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead

There’s someone in your life you wish would change. You’ve pushed, reminded, and given advice. You’ve had the same conversation over and over. And somehow, you’re still stuck in the same frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging, lecturing, and hoping they’ll finally do something differently. There is a better way. In today’s conversation, Mel sits down with renowned behavioral scientist and award-winning NYU professor Dr. Dolly Chugh to unpack the surprising science of why people resist change and what really works. You’re going to walk away with some of the most powerful, research-backed tools Dr. Chugh teaches at NYU – tools that will change how you see difficult people, frustrating relationships, and your own ability to influence how others behave. You’ll learn: -The 3 things that really do help when someone you love won’t change -The simple question to ask before giving advice – so it doesn’t backfire -The 4-option question that reveals what someone needs from you in a difficult moment -The relationship tool that keeps small problems from turning into 10-out-of-10 fights -How to tell when “helping” someone is keeping them stuck -The 2 “bodyguards” in your brain that explain why you know better but still don’t do better -Why your brain can fight change even when you desperately want it -The surprising role “unlearning” plays in changing a habit or behavior If you’re exhausted from trying to change someone you love, this conversation will give you a different way forward – starting today – that feels lighter, more hopeful, and extremely doable. Your relationships will never be the same. And neither will you. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked this episode, listen to this one next: How to Become More Confident, Influential, and Communicate Better With #1 Harvard Business Professor Mel also wants to tell you: Try the 23g protein shot I drink every single morning Join 2 million readers loving my weekly newsletter - full of tips, tools, and inspiration The Let Them Theory: read the book everyone’s talking about Watch the episodes on YouTube Connect with me on Instagram Follow the show’s Instagram for clips, behind the scenes, and more Find some daily positivity on my TikTok Want zero ads? Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-free Disclaimer

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:08Mel Robbins?

  Oh, you're gonna love the episode today because today you and I are gonna learn how to deal with the people in your life who won't change. I mean, we love these people, but they're so frustrating, right? I know you're sick of it. I'm sick of it. Aren't you sick of wasting your time and energy trying to push other people to be better? Of course you are. Today, you're gonna learn a different approach. You're gonna learn how to use the research to pull the people you love toward the changes that you want to see, and they're not even gonna know you're doing it. Dr. Dolly Chugh is here in our Boston studios. She is a social psychologist with three degrees from Harvard. She's also an

• 0:49Mel Robbins?

  award-winning professor at NYU Stern School of Business. Her entire field of expertise is studying why people won't change, and more importantly, how to effectively move someone else toward changing. So if you're in a frustrating pattern with someone that you love, you are listening to the exact episode that you need to hear. You're gonna love this because there's so many takeaways that you and I can apply immediately. In fact, Dr. Chug is gonna say, there's only three things that you can do that will inspire someone else to change, just three. And if you're like me, you're gonna realize you're probably not doing any of these three things. You're doing the things that don't work.

• 1:32Mel Robbins?

  After listening today, you will finally break free from the endless frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging, and lecturing the people you care about. And you know what you're gonna feel? Peace and power. And if you apply what Dr. Chug is about to teach you today, you may just see the people that you care about finally change.

• 2:02Mel Robbins?

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• 2:46Mel Robbins?

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• 3:31Mel Robbins?

  to explore a cool beach town this summer, Expedia makes it easy. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, everything you need in one place. That means no jumping between sites, no hassle, and when you bundle, you can save up to 30% with everything you need in one app. Sign in to save. Savings vary. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. You wanna know something I've really struggled with? Getting enough protein. My doctor recommends I get at least 100 grams. Do you know how much protein that is? I mean, there's only so many chicken breasts and eggs that a woman can eat for crying out loud. So when I discovered this tiny little protein shot that had 23 grams of protein, I thought, this

• 4:12Mel Robbins?

  is the best protein I've ever had. And that's exactly why I joined the company and became a co-founder. Pure Genius Protein has no artificial sweeteners or flavors. It's gluten-free, sugar-free, and fat-free. It is only 100 calories, 23 grams of delicious protein. I drink one every single morning. Use code MEL10 at puregeniusprotein.com for 10% off your first order. 23 grams of protein in three seconds for under $3 a shot.

• 4:43Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited for the conversation today. It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener, you're here because somebody shared this with you. I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Today, you and I are talking all about how you deal with people in your life who will not change. You're gonna learn how to stop wasting your energy, and more importantly, you're gonna know exactly what to do to inspire the changes you want to see in other people. You're gonna love this. Dr. Dolly Chugh is an award-winning social psychologist, behavioral

• 5:23Mel Robbins?

  scientist, a professor at NYU Stern School of Business, where her classes are so popular, they're nearly impossible to get into. Dr. Chug is also a bestselling author who's earned three degrees from Harvard, an MBA, a master's in psychology, and her PhD in social psychology and organizational behavior. Today, she is here in our Boston studios to unpack the science that's gonna help you break free from the frustrating cycle of trying to push other people that you love to change. Because there's a better way. So how about you and I learn it? Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chugh to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  I'm so thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank you for having me.

• 6:04Mel Robbins?

  I'm thrilled that you're here, too. And I know that this topic is going to resonate with the person who's listening right now, and it's going to be incredibly helpful. Could you start, Dr. Chug, by telling the person who's here with us, what could change about their life and their relationships if they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us about dealing with the people in your life that are not changing?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  You're gonna feel lighter. You're gonna feel more hopeful. You're going to see a path because you're gonna have tools that will help you, both when you're trying to make changes in yourself and when you're trying to make changes in other people. You're gonna realize you're not alone in those moments, those messy human moments. And you're gonna drop some of the frustration that you have and the expectations that you have of other people.

• 7:02Mel Robbins?

  I love that. I wanna feel more free. I wanna feel lighter. That sounds fantastic because the people in my life drive me crazy. And the other thing is, is I know that I drive the people in my life crazy.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:14Mel Robbins?

  You know, there's that famous quote, "When you know better, you do better." Maya Angelou said that. And I think that's true when you look backwards at the lessons that you've learned the hard way. But when I think about myself, I will admit that I often know better.

• 7:32Mel Robbins?

  But I don't do better. And your research really sits at the heart of knowing better, but we don't do better. Why is it, Dr. Chug, that we can know better? We know we should not be drinking tonight. We know we should go to the gym this morning. We know that we shouldn't spend money on that thing that we don't need because we're supposed to be saving for somebody. We know we shouldn't snap at our kids, but we don't do it.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  There's two key insights that really help me from the science of human behavior here. And I like to think of these insights as understanding our mind as having bodyguards.

• 8:16Mel Robbins?

  Okay, hold on. Our mind has bodyguards?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Our mind has these two big bodyguards that are keeping out change and keeping out growth. And here's what those two bodyguards are all about. I call one of them energy and one of them ego. The energy bodyguard is trying to preserve my energy. They're trying to make my life as easy as possible. And that means that a lot of what we do is on autopilot. Let me give you an example. I'm gonna snap my fingers, and in that snap of a fingers, you just had 11 million thoughts.

• 8:56Mel Robbins?

  Wait, what?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:58Mel Robbins?

  11 million?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:59Mel Robbins?

  No.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  There's a study that says that there is so much of our mind on autopilot. Like, for example, let's say you had a long day, and now you're heading home, you're driving, or you're taking a subway, or a bus, or you're riding the bike, or you're walking, and you get home, you walk in the door, and you realize you don't remember anything about that commute home. You don't remember red lights or green lights, or did you get a seat on the bus? You just did it because you've done it a million times.

• 9:28Mel Robbins?

  Well, you know what I think is, I literally say to myself, oh, my God, what just happened?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  What just happened?

• 9:32Mel Robbins?

  Where was I?

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Right. But the good news is, is that's your body and your brain doing everything it should, conserving energy. That's the bodyguard, putting you on autopilot, letting you do the things you know how to do without having to think too hard about it.

• 9:47Mel Robbins?

  Okay, got it.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  So I call those little t-thoughts, not capital T-thoughts, right? And even right now, the fact that you and I can understand each other, that we sort of know which direction to face, that we can detect the temperature in the room and the feeling of our clothes on us, but we're not necessarily big T-thinking about it. So in that snap of the fingers, 11 million little t-thoughts. They say maybe like 40 big T-thoughts, actual thoughts, like you're thinking, what should I say next? You know, is this microphone the correct distance? All those are big T-thoughts.

• 10:22Mel Robbins?

  And these are all happening simultaneously, and I'm not even really aware of it.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  We're not even aware of it because that's the brilliance of being a human being, is that we are able to do that. And that's because we have this mental bodyguard that's protecting our energy. And some people refer to it as our unconscious mind is doing a lot of the work. So when we talk about, if we go back to the question of why, when I know something, don't I do it?

• 10:46Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Sometimes knowing is talking about those capital T-thoughts, right? The 40, not the 11 million. But there's still a whole lot going on in our unconscious mind, in our habits, in our reflexes, that are gonna keep us in a space that isn't closing that gap between knowing and doing.

• 11:06Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  So that's one thing.

• 11:08Mel Robbins?

  Energy.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Energy.

• 11:09Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  There's a second bodyguard, and this one's even bigger. This bodyguard is trying to protect, call it our ego, call it our self, call it our identity. It's whatever it is that makes us feel like the person we mean to be. There's a study that looked at how much we value having affirmation, having sort of validation of these identities we care about, whatever they are. More than your favorite food, more than time with a friend, more than your favorite sex act. We really, really like to protect our identity and our ego, whatever that means.

• 11:53Mel Robbins?

  So can you give me an example?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Let's say that I consider myself like some, an identity I care about as being considered kind and warm. That's, that's how I define being a good person. And I am walking around my neighborhood one day. It's beautiful out and I think, you know what? Let me take this work call. It's, you know, audio only. Let me just put the little AirPod in. I'm working from home today and do this call while I'm walking. It's an important work call. I'm listening intently. I unknowingly blow off a neighbor. I'm in my work hall. My little AirPod's tucked in my ear. They probably don't see it. They wave. And I hear later

• 12:35Speaker 01

  that they reported that I blew them off to someone else. They tell other neighbors that there she is being a bit standoffish.

• 12:44Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  That bothers me a lot, a lot. Now, there are other people whose identity isn't as tied up in being seen as kind and warm and friendly and that kind of neighbor that says hello to everybody. They may not care. But for me, that really bothers me. So we've got these two bodyguards that are going to always want to push away anything that suggests changing what we're doing.

• 13:11Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Or growing into being someone else if it threatens our energy or our ego in the moment.

• 13:18Mel Robbins?

  So you just explained to me why the people that I love, who I'm worried about, don't take better care of themselves.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:25Mel Robbins?

  So for example, it takes a lot of energy.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:28Mel Robbins?

  To lift weights, to eat healthy.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:32Mel Robbins?

  To go for a walk.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:34Mel Robbins?

  When, especially when you haven't.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:36Mel Robbins?

  And if your ego and something that you value is I'm in control of me. Nobody tells me what to do.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:43Mel Robbins?

  My desire for you to now lift weights because your doctor said so, or to start walking because I think it's important for you to prevent dementia, or for you to eat healthy because I'm worried about the weight you're putting on, I'm now threatening one of your core values, which is I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do. Wow.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  You just nailed it. And that's, that's called agency. It's a, it's a fundamental human need that I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do.

• 14:10Mel Robbins?

  Now, can you do that to yourself? Because I often feel like I'm such a, whether you call it control freak or rebel.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:18Mel Robbins?

  That I even rebel against my own attempts to make myself.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Mel Robbins?

  You know, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, nobody, I'm the world's worst employee because I hate being told what to do.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:30Mel Robbins?

  Unless I understand why I need to do it.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:34Mel Robbins?

  And even when I try to tell myself what to do.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:38Mel Robbins?

  I notice I negotiate with myself and push back. And I think you just explained why.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  I think that's right. I think that's right.

• 14:45Mel Robbins?

  It's the bodyguard of the ego. Nobody tells Mel Robbins what to do, not even Mel Robbins. Can you show me, Dr. Chug, this gap between knowing better, but not doing better?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  All right, Mel, I'm going to ask for your help with this. I'm going to, I'm going to pull out a little prop. You ready?

• 15:04Mel Robbins?

  Okay, got it.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Okay, all right. So what I'm going to show you here is this poster board has words written in different color fonts. You might notice that there's red, there's orange, there's green, pink, blue. And we've got about 15 words. And what I want you to do is I'm going to point to a word and you just tell me what color it's in.

• 15:28Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  All right, Mel, you got it. Go.

• 15:30Mel Robbins?

  Red, orange. I'm just doing color, right?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:33Mel Robbins?

  Green, pink, blue, green, blue, red, yellow, green.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Crushing it.

• 15:40Mel Robbins?

  Blue, yellow, pink, green, orange.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Oh, you did so well, Mel.

• 15:44Mel Robbins?

  Now, here's what I want to point out to the person listening. The word is the same as the color. So she's pointing to a, the first word, the word is red, but it's also red.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:54Mel Robbins?

  When you pointed to the second, the word is orange and the color of the word is also orange. Okay, now what's happening?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  I think you're catching on here, Mel, because I now like you, I'm flipping the chart and...

• 16:05Mel Robbins?

  Now, let me just tell the person listening, every word is a color, but the actual color that the word is written in is different from the word. So she's about to point to the word green, but it's actually printed in the color orange.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I want to point out before you do it, Mel, that right now, what you just did was you were able to narrate to me exactly what we're doing. So that's the knowing. We talked about the difference between know.

• 16:34Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  And, and do. So we, you just, you know what we're doing.

• 16:37Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Let's see if you can do it.

• 16:39Mel Robbins?

  Okay. Uh, this is like a brain scramble.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Oh, that's all right.

• 16:45Mel Robbins?

  Wait, am I reading the word or telling you the color?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  You're, you're telling me the color.

• 16:49Mel Robbins?

  You're asking my mind to do two different things.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  I know, you could do it. Try hard.

• 16:51Mel Robbins?

  Wait, I'm telling you the color?

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Telling me the color.

• 16:53Mel Robbins?

  Of the word.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  The, the color of the font.

• 16:56Mel Robbins?

  Is orange the right answer?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:58Mel Robbins?

  Oh, God, even though the word is green. Okay. Red.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Good.

• 17:02Mel Robbins?

  Pink.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:04Mel Robbins?

  Yellow. Oh, uh, blue. Orange, blue, red.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:14Mel Robbins?

  Green.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:16Mel Robbins?

  Orange.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:18Mel Robbins?

  Pink.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:20Mel Robbins?

  Green, blue, yellow, red. Okay, my brain all of a sudden went like, it got it.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:26Mel Robbins?

  By the last column.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:27Mel Robbins?

  I was not faking that, by the way.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  So Mel, what you just did is called the stroop test.

• 17:32Mel Robbins?

  Stroop? Like strep and poop as one thing? Stroop?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good way to remember it.

• 17:38Mel Robbins?

  And why did you show us that? And what does it have to do with change?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  What you were trying to do is take two things that happen really quickly for you.

• 17:46Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  One of them is detecting color.

• 17:48Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  And one of them is reading. So those two effortless activities.

• 17:53Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Were no longer effortless because they conflicted with each other. They contradicted each other. So what I asked you to do in that moment was unlearn reading.

• 18:03Mel Robbins?

  Whoa. And what you experience when being asked to do something that you have to unlearn?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:12Mel Robbins?

  And I bet as you were watching on YouTube, you felt the same thing, is I felt this internal friction and resistance.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 18:18Mel Robbins?

  And that's always there. Whenever I have to do something that I've either never done before, I don't want to, whether it's getting off the couch or putting the phone down.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 18:31Mel Robbins?

  Or trying something I've never tried before.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:35Mel Robbins?

  I feel that same, wah!

• 18:37Speaker 01

  That's right, because that's what unlearning feels like. That's what change feels like. That's what growth feels like. Unlearning is a two-step process because first I've got to let go of the thing I already know how to do. And then I've got to learn the new thing. And so when we're asking other people to change, I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for that and that we shouldn't hold people accountable, especially if their actions are hurting us. Absolutely. But the empathy that we can have for what we're asking of them is going to go a long way in that moment.

• 19:10Mel Robbins?

  Hmm. Because we know how hard it is for us to change, but we just assume other people can do it like that.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 19:17Mel Robbins?

  And that if they don't do it like that, they're a jerk.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  We want grace for our own mistakes and learning curve, and we want accountability for everyone else's.

• 19:29Mel Robbins?

  My God, it's so, I'm so guilty of that.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm going to put this visual away.

• 19:34Mel Robbins?

  Super cool. Thank you for bringing that.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 19:36Mel Robbins?

  So what is the biggest mistake that you make when you know what you should be doing, but you're still not doing it?

• 19:47Speaker 01

  That we forget that you can't learn from a mistake you're still defending.

• 19:52Mel Robbins?

  Oh, wait, what do you mean by that?

• 19:54Speaker 01

  That we get in a space of trying to prove ourselves rather than trying to improve ourselves.

• 20:04Mel Robbins?

  Hold on, did you hear that? She said we get into a space where we try to prove ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:15Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 20:18Mel Robbins?

  I do that. I can think of a million examples where I got very defensive.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 20:24Mel Robbins?

  Proving why this is too hard, or why I couldn't follow through tonight, or why.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 20:29Mel Robbins?

  We get into a space of proving ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  And by the way, Mel, the people we're trying to prove ourselves to are sometimes other people and defending, but sometimes it's ourselves. It's why didn't I get that right? Why didn't I know how to do that? Why am I so bad at this? Why can't I be as good as so and so at it? Why isn't my life like other persons?

• 20:57Mel Robbins?

  Hmm. How do you get out of that trap?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  One thing I like to say is that when I say I study the psychology of good people, it's a little bit of a gotcha. Because my work focuses on helping people let go of being good people. Whatever that means to them. Going to the gym, being nice to neighbors, whatever it is, that you need to let go of it in order to become better people.

• 21:27Mel Robbins?

  What does that mean? Because aren't we supposed to be good people?

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Of course we are. And the problem is, as soon as we decide we're a good person, we're trying to prove it, instead of trying to improve towards it. And this game never ends. Life goes on, day after day, throwing new challenges, new curveballs at us. Even if you thought you did it today, you crushed it today. Tomorrow's a new day. And so getting in a space where we realize this is an ongoing process for ourself and for other people, we're not trying to prove we've already figured it out. We're trying to improve on an ongoing basis. We're not trying to see ourself as good people. Especially things that are kind of got some moral charge to it, like, are you nice to

• 22:14Speaker 01

  your children? Are you a good parent? Like, those things have a lot of moral charge to them. And we feel like we should just know how to do it. And you should just know how to do it. That's not good enough. These are skills, and skills require practice and improvement. So, good people things, we tend to view as like, it's a belief you should have. It's a value you should have. How can you not know how to do that? Why do you keep interrupting me? If you cared, you wouldn't interrupt me. That's like a, you should just know how to do it. Prove it to me. As opposed to, you're trying to get better at it, and it's a skill that you're working on.

• 22:53Mel Robbins?

  Well, I can see, certainly, how I hold this over other people's head.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:58Mel Robbins?

  That if you're not doing the things that I wish you would do, you're not a good person. But if I turn it on myself first, because we're going to get to other people, and I think, okay. And I invite you, as you're listening, to really think about, what have you held over your own head?

• 23:20Mel Robbins?

  In judgment? Where you believe that if you got to every email today, you're a good person.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:28Mel Robbins?

  If your laundry is done, you're a good person. If your house is clean, you're a good person. If you can both be at work, and volunteer at the school, and take care of your parents, you're a good person. And you're saying that even trying to, quote, be a good person by some standard you've set, is a recipe for feeling miserable about yourself? And you want us to switch our mindset to, no, no, no, I'm improving all the time. I'm learning all the time. I'm doing the best I can all the time. Is that kind of more of the switch?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  That's exactly it. So, the distinction I make is between being a good person and a goodish person.

• 24:11Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Being a good person is a static. You either are, or you're not.

• 24:16Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  A goodish person is someone who's always trying to get better. So, good person is trying to prove they're a good person. Goodish person is constantly trying to improve. And so, the irony of it is even though goodish sounds like, okay, well, you're not as good as good, goodish is actually better than good, because you're constantly getting better.

• 24:35Mel Robbins?

  And you're giving space for the days where you blow it.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  And you take ownership for it.

• 24:41Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  So, there's a difference between giving space, like, let's say I say something that hurts someone. Let's say I use a term that I don't realize has some offensive meaning or history to it, and I get called out on it.

• 24:55Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  The idea here is not to let myself off the hook, well, you know, they're too sensitive. Yeah, I'm goodish, you know, they're a little too sensitive. I'm sorry, you know, you were so offended. The idea is for me to say, okay, there's something I didn't know. I'm going to own that I did some harm there that I didn't intend to.

• 25:12Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  It's not that I'm a bad person, it's that I didn't know. And now, I'm going to learn, take ownership for that, and do better the next time? So, the ownership piece is really important. It's that I'm a goodish person who keeps trying to get better, and in doing that, I'm going to improve myself, not just prove myself.

• 25:34Mel Robbins?

  This is such a helpful framework. Because it really reveals to me, anyway, and probably to you as you're listening right now, how hard you are in yourself.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 25:47Mel Robbins?

  And what impossible standards you hold yourself to.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:52Mel Robbins?

  And I would love to have you, Dr. Chu, just speak directly to the person who feels weary when you say constantly improving? Because there's a nuance to what you're saying. You're not saying, you gotta be constantly pushing yourself, constantly improving, constantly going to the gym, constantly trying to do better, constantly grinding it out because you're not doing enough.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:18Mel Robbins?

  It's a different mindset.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:22Mel Robbins?

  And I'd love to have you put that in context, because I'd be willing to bet that the person that's listening and is making time to be with us right now is probably exhausted.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 26:36Mel Robbins?

  They're trying very hard. They end the day feeling like they didn't do enough. And as you're starting to have this realization, like I am, that, wow, I'm like, probably the hardest person in the world on myself.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:47Mel Robbins?

  Because I'm trying to be a good person.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:49Mel Robbins?

  But I've defined this in a way that's impossible to reach.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:52Mel Robbins?

  So, I always have at least 10 things at the end of the day that make me feel like a bad person, because I didn't get to them.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:59Mel Robbins?

  So, how do you want us to really think about what that means? Going from proving that you're good.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:08Mel Robbins?

  And then annihilating yourself at the end of the, I'm bad, I didn't do this, and ah, blah. Versus this change in your mindset that you're just constantly trying to improve?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. Well, I think you just nailed it in what you said. So, what's exhausting, and we're all so exhausted for a lot of reasons right now, but what's particularly exhausting is feeling like a failure. It leads to what psychologists call learned helplessness. If you keep trying, keep trying, keep trying, don't feel like you get anywhere, eventually you just learn that you're helpless, and you give up.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  What we're talking about here is, yes, something that takes a little bit of effort, but it's less exhausting. Because what you're, at the end of the day, evaluating is, have I grown? Not, have I succeeded? And that's a very different question. It's, what have I learned today? Not, what did I get right or wrong today? There's a million things I'm sure I've done wrong as a parent, but one of the things that I'm happy that my husband and I implemented early on with our kids, is when they would bring home any sort of grade, or test, or paper from school, we would try really hard not to react to the grade.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  All we would say is, do you understand what you did? Do you understand what you got wrong? Did you try your best? And I think those are actually great questions for us all to ask ourselves at the end of a day. Not, did I get it right or wrong? It's, what did I learn, and did I try my best?

• 28:53Mel Robbins?

  What did I learn, and did I try my best? That's a beautiful thing. So, two questions to ask yourself at the end of every day. What did I learn, and did I try my best?

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:05Mel Robbins?

  You know, I am really learning a lot. And I find myself constantly reflecting about my own behavior as I'm listening to everything that you're teaching us, and I bet you are too, as you're listening. And here's what I want to do. I'm having so many ahas, I've got so many more questions, but I want to take a quick pause for a moment, so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors. But don't you dare go anywhere. Because when we come back, Dr. Chu is going to talk about the difference between pushing somebody to change and pulling them. She'll explain the three ways that you get somebody to change, because there's only three. And a little later, you're going to learn all about something amazing you're going to use with your family, called the one to 10 rule.

• 29:51Mel Robbins?

  Don't go anywhere, we'll be right back.

• 29:58Mel Robbins?

  Are you getting enough omega-3s in your diet? Your heart, brain, and immune system all need omega-3s to function the way they're supposed to. Now, this is backed by tens of thousands of studies. And yet, over 80% of Americans are not getting enough omega-3s from food alone. That's why I want to tell you about Nordic Naturals. This is not your typical fish oil. They use high-quality, sustainably sourced ingredients. They test everything for purity and freshness. And get this, it actually tastes good. No gross, ugh, aftertaste. And the worst, no fishy burps. I hate those.

• 30:39Mel Robbins?

  That's why Nordic Naturals is the number one selling omega-3 brand. Use promo code MEL for 15% off your next order at Nordic.com and discover the power of omega-3 with Nordic Naturals. Supplements are not evaluated by the FDA and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent diseases. What's your favorite kind of vacation? Do you like to do physical stuff and see a bunch of sights? Or do you just, oh, my God, just let me lounge by a pool and don't talk to me? Scottsdale, Arizona, will let you do it all. And fall is one of the most beautiful times to visit Scottsdale with warm days, cool desert evenings, and endless sunshine.

• 31:22Mel Robbins?

  Here are just some of the things you can do in Scottsdale. Visit legendary Old Town Scottsdale with over 100 restaurants, dozens of art galleries, and boutique shopping. Stay at award-winning luxury resorts designed for relaxation. Spend a day at one of Scottsdale's world-class spas. Eat at an award-winning restaurant with unmatched sunsets. Play championship golf courses surrounded by stunning Sonoran desert landscapes. And top it all off with beautiful desert scenery that instantly helps you disconnect. We spend so much time taking care of everyone else. Scottsdale is where you can finally take care of yourself. Visit unwindinsscottsdale.com to plan your trip this fall. Here's something you might find encouraging.

• 32:05Mel Robbins?

  The best version of your life isn't always down the road. Sometimes, it's right here in front of you. That's why Buick is here to help you show up at your best, live with intention, and remember that now is exceptional. Whether you're showing up in style with the Buick En vista with its head-turning design and quiet-tuning technology with active noise cancellation, or you're embarking on a night out in the three-row Buick Enclave, where a tech-forward spacious interior keeps you connected to your drive and your crew. Every Buick SUV is designed to reward the road you're on and the moment you're in.

• 32:45Mel Robbins?

  So keep pushing yourself forward, but remember to enjoy the ride today. Visit Buick.com to discover premium design that amplifies every day. That's Buick.com. Buick, exceptional by design. This podcast is brought to you by Expedia. If you haven't booked your next trip yet, now is the time. Whether you're going to fly across the country, or maybe you just want to explore a cool beach town this summer, Expedia makes it easy. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, everything you need in one place. That means no jumping between sites, no hassle. And when you bundle, you can save up to 30% with everything you need in one app. Sign in to save. Savings vary.

• 33:28Mel Robbins?

  Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and I'm here with Dr. Chug, an award-winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. Today, she is teaching you and me how to deal with people in your life who will not change, how to stop wasting your time and energy, and what to do step by step instead. So, Dr. Chug, here's my next question. One of the things that we hear from our audience in 194 countries is one of the things that people struggle with the most is this sense of, I'm not good enough.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:10Mel Robbins?

  And when I listen to you and what you're teaching us, and that we hold moral standards over ourselves, and we judge ourselves every day. Let's just be honest, as you're listening right now, think about how many times you've sent a text and then you say, I'm an idiot. I shouldn't have written that. Think about how many times you walk out of a party and then you judge yourself for what you were wearing.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:35Mel Robbins?

  Think about how you leave work at the end of the day, and you tell yourself you didn't do enough. And yet, you didn't even give yourself credit for the 100 emails and Slack messages and Zoom meetings that you attended.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:46Mel Robbins?

  And we're constantly holding this judgment over ourselves? So no wonder we don't feel good enough.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:53Mel Robbins?

  Here's what it's also making me realize. If I'm this judgy of myself.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:00Mel Robbins?

  I'm now realizing how judgy and opinionated I am of other people.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 35:05Mel Robbins?

  And if I have a standard for what Mel Robbins needs to do every day to be a good person, can you imagine what the list looks like? For what my husband, Christopher Robbins, needs to do to be a good husband?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 35:22Mel Robbins?

  If the list is impossibly long that I hold over my own head.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:27Mel Robbins?

  Imagine how long that list is for my husband.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 35:31Mel Robbins?

  And my kids.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Woo!

• 35:33Mel Robbins?

  And the people I work with.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:35Mel Robbins?

  And the stranger in front of me.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  So, I mean, the question is, how do we help others change?

• 35:41Mel Robbins?

  I love how you said "help."

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:43Mel Robbins?

  Because I'm trying to force, manipulate.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Well, that's actually interesting.

• 35:45Mel Robbins?

  Conjoal, bribe, whatever it takes.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  So, one of the things we talk about, I mean, I'm all for bribery. My most effective parenting technique to date in a couple of decades has been that I sing to my kids.

• 36:03Mel Robbins?

  How is that effective?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Because I'm a terrible singer, and they really don't like it. So if I'm saying, do this, do that, nobody's listening, I'm not getting anyone's attention, and then I start singing, "You are my sunshine." I could do it for your audience, but you'd lose listeners.

• 36:19Mel Robbins?

  Let's hear it.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  You are my sunshine.

• 36:21Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my, now I want to pick up my stuff and clean my room. I'm like, anything, Mom, but stuff.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  And I'll keep going till they do the thing.

• 36:28Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my God, I love this.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Isn't that good?

• 36:30Mel Robbins?

  Why does that work?

• 36:31Speaker 01

  It's a little bit of a pull versus a push, right? So a push is saying, go clean your room. A pull is creating the conditions in which you want to go clean your room.

• 36:41Mel Robbins?

  Because they want to leave you.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:43Mel Robbins?

  Oh, wow.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  So, and this is, this is a big, this is a big.

• 36:46Mel Robbins?

  That feels more like a repel, honestly.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  It might be, yeah, that's fair. It's fair. But the push versus pull distinction is a really important one with the leadership classes I teach, that when we're trying to influence others, sometimes we do need to push. And that means we're directing them, we are telling them, we are forcing them. That's a push technique, and we see it in the workplace, we see it in our families. It has its place. We tend to overuse it, though. And so, pull techniques are more about creating conditions under which people want to do it on their own.

• 37:23Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  As you said earlier, where I am the boss of me, where I might be asking questions, or I might be being a sounding board for someone else to let them create their own plan, their own desire and purpose around the thing that I want them to do. That almost always takes longer.

• 37:47Mel Robbins?

  Always.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Than push. However, if it works, it lasts longer as well.

• 37:54Mel Robbins?

  Realistically, what can you do to help someone you love change?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Realistically, you can model change, you can invite change, you can reward change, but you cannot make anyone change. Let me give an example of what I mean by model change, because I think it's an important one. There's a story that may or may not be true, but it's sort of taken on epic fable proportions. Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the leaders of the nonviolence movement in India in the

• 38:38Speaker 01

  1940s, he became seen as the person that people would go to for wisdom. And in this fable that's told about him, he would receive people who would travel by foot hundreds of miles to come to him and ask for his wisdom. And one day, this family came to him with their young child and said, Gandhi G, we have traveled a long way, we've waited a long time for our turn, and we need you to tell our son, who's withering away, he must eat food and not just sugar. All he will eat is sugar. Gandhi listened to them, he heard their request, he nodded with understanding, and then he

• 39:23Speaker 01

  said, please come back in two weeks. Not the response they were looking for. They had traveled a long way, they had waited a long time, their son is withering away. Wait two weeks? Why? But out of deference, they go back home. Two weeks later, they make the long journey, they wait the long time for their turn, they arrive at his doorstep, they say, now, please, Gandhi G, will you help us with our son? He's withering away, he's only eating sugar. And Gandhi G said to them, my son, you must stop eating sugar.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Well, that seems like a bit of a buzzkill after all of that. And they say to him, thank you, thank you. But with all due respect, why couldn't you say that two weeks ago? And he said, because two weeks ago, I was still eating sugar. So the first step, when we realistically want to help someone change, is to think about what we can do ourselves to model change. Now, that doesn't mean, I'm not trying to add to our exhausted plate. I'm just trying to say, in all the work we're doing ourselves, can we make it visible to others that we know this is hard? And this is what we are struggling with.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  So if your partner's snapping at the kids, you keep telling them, stop snapping at the kids. And they keep snapping, they get defensive. What if you talked about the struggles you have sometimes with snapping at the kids? What if you mentioned that you noticed when you have a snack in the car before you come in to the house, it helps you take a moment? What if you talked about the things that you've tried that haven't worked? And how embarrassed you are by the fact that they haven't worked?

• 41:15Mel Robbins?

  That's a super helpful story and example. The second thing that you said that we could do is invite change. What does that look like? What's an example of inviting change?

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Inviting means creating the conditions under which someone can do it and not feel self-conscious about it. Right? So let's say your partner says, doesn't say, but let's say they are going to go ahead and like, all right, so I'm not supposed to snap at the kids. I'm supposed to, but even though I'm tired, maybe what I'll do is try to tell a story about my day. Or I'll try to be funny and like, try to say something relatable, whatever. And when they do that, they come off a little awkward. The story goes on too long. They, they don't quite get it. The kids are tuning out. If I, in that moment, say, what are you doing? This isn't helping.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  That's not inviting change because they just did something. They changed something. It didn't work, but they tried. So inviting change is allowing the unlearning to work through.

• 42:22Mel Robbins?

  Oh, so it's recognizing tiny attempts?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:28Mel Robbins?

  And having grace?

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:30Mel Robbins?

  And just kind of really understanding, oh, this is the unlearning process.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 42:37Mel Robbins?

  So stumbling through it.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. They're not going to all of a sudden know how not to snap at the kids.

• 42:44Mel Robbins?

  And what does reward look like? You said we could reward change. What does that look like?

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Depending on the situation, whether you do it publicly or privately, it's in whatever the love language is in your scenario, telling them you noticed it, you saw it, you appreciate it. If you think it worked, sincerely tell them, I think that really worked. I saw our daughter light up when you, when you gave her that moment of attention. Thank you for hearing me. I know that was hard. You must be tired.

• 43:14Mel Robbins?

  You know, how do you know when your advice is a complete waste of time? For example, you have a friend that keeps dating people that disrespect her. They're complaining about it, or they're complaining about their partner of eight years, but they never act on your advice.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Right. Stop giving advice.

• 43:36Mel Robbins?

  Stop giving advice? How do you know when it's time to stop giving advice?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I like the wait rule.

• 43:44Mel Robbins?

  What's the wait rule?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Why am I talking?

• 43:47Mel Robbins?

  Oh, wait, why am I talking?

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Right. So I didn't come up with this. I don't think we know exactly who came up with it. It was popularized by Michael Bungay Stanyay in his book, The Coaching Habit. The wait rule reminds us that when we're talking, especially if we're talking about someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them. Which means that agency, that sense of I am my own boss, we're taking it away. So the first question is, have they even asked for our advice? Most of us want to help the people we love solve their problems. That doesn't necessarily mean they asked us for help to solve their problems.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  And another great little rule of thumb I've heard is to ask people when we feel tempted to solve their problems. This one probably won't work in the workplace, but I think it works really well in families. Do you want to be heard, hugged, or helped? And then my addition to that rule is, or high-fived. Heard means they need to vent. In your example, the partner needs to vent. Hugged means they need to feel loved. Helped, they need my advice and they want it. They're asking for it. And the high five piece that I've added is sometimes

• 45:16Speaker 01

  a lot of us want people to notice how hard we're trying, how exhausted we are, how well we're doing. And especially as women, we're not really given permission to just say that's what we need. So we kind of keep dropping the breadcrumbs, hoping someone will high five us. So heard, hugged, helped, or high-fived. So friend is complaining, they're never taking my advice. My first question is, did they ever ask for it? The advice. The second, let's say they are asking for the advice and they're not taking it. To name that, say, I know you've asked for my advice. I'm really flattered by that and I'm always happy to offer it. But I got to ask you a question.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  When you ask for my advice, do you mean you want to be helped? Or do you want to be heard? Do you want to be hugged? Are you in pain? Do you want to be high-fived for the fact that you're a great partner? And you're not getting the attention you want at home? Can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean by advice?

• 46:18Mel Robbins?

  This is so helpful. And I love those four categories because I think when I'm in distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I often don't know what I need.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:27Mel Robbins?

  And so when somebody asks those four things, I might even surprise myself. One mistake I've absolutely made is when somebody comes to me and they're feeling down.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:40Mel Robbins?

  I make the mistake of trying to immediately lift them back up.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Ah, me too.

• 46:45Mel Robbins?

  Oftentimes, when people come to you in a moment when they're down, they just want a hug.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  They want a hug.

• 46:51Mel Robbins?

  They don't want the pep talk. They don't want to be told to be strong. They don't want you to fix this. They want to be reassured and comforted.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:59Mel Robbins?

  And so I also like the heard, hugged, helped, and high five because it stops me from stepping over a line.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  I like that a lot. Yeah, absolutely. The funny thing is, when I've asked this question, I mean, I haven't actually counted, but I think 90% of the time, the answer I receive is heard.

• 47:17Mel Robbins?

  Dr. Chug, thank you for explaining it that way. You know, I am really learning a lot. And here's what I want to say to you. If there's someone in your life that you keep thinking about, because I keep thinking about the people in my life that I'm trying to change, or if you have somebody in your life who's really hard on themselves and could really benefit from what we're learning today, just copy a link to this episode and share it with them while you're listening to our amazing sponsors. Stay with me.

• 47:50Mel Robbins?

  Here's something you might find encouraging. The best version of your life isn't always down the road. Sometimes it's right here in front of you. That's why Buick is here to help you show up at your best, live with intention, and remember that now is exceptional. Whether you're showing up in style with the Buick EnVista, with its head-turning design and quiet-tuning technology with active noise cancellation, or you're embarking on a night out in the three-row Buick Enclave, where a tech-forward spacious interior keeps you connected to your drive and your crew. Every Buick SUV is designed to reward the road you're on and the moment you're in. So keep pushing yourself forward.

• 48:34Mel Robbins?

  But remember to enjoy the ride today. Visit buick.com to discover premium design that amplifies every day. That's buick.com. Buick, exceptional by design. Have you noticed that these days, there's a holiday for everything? So Ollie went ahead and declared August National Dog Poop Month. Have you ever gone through a phase where you analyze your dog's poops? You know, that one looks healthy, ooh, that one, not so much. If anyone gets being this invested in the quality of their dog's poop, it's Ollie. They deliver fresh, human-grade food that is gently cooked to maximize your dog's nutrition. In other words, they make sure your dog's poops are 10 out of 10 every time.

• 49:19Mel Robbins?

  Ollie's fresh recipes are developed by real chefs with gut-friendly ingredients that support better digestion, energy, skin health, and better poops. This summer, treat your pup to better food and perfect poops. Head to ollie.com/mel, tell them all about your dog, and use code MEL to get 70% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. It's super easy and risk-free with their obsession guarantee. That's O-L-L-I-E.com/mel. And enter code MEL to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. One of the things I'm most proud of here at the Mel Robbins Podcast is that we're constantly growing and hiring new, amazing people to join the team. So let me introduce you to our new producer, Matt.

• 50:04Mel Robbins?

  Matt, you just moved to Boston, joined our team, furnished your new apartment with our sponsor, Wayfair. Be honest, how empty was this place when you got the keys?

• 50:13Speaker 02

  It was pretty sad, like air mattress on the floor, eating takeout in a lawn chair, sad.

• 50:19Mel Robbins?

  So where did you even start?

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Went straight to Wayfair because I needed everything. Bed frame, couch, area rug, desk, you name it.

• 50:26Mel Robbins?

  How did Wayfair help you feel at home?

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Once I laid out the rug and assembled the couch, I was like, all right, this is home now.

• 50:33Mel Robbins?

  Well, there you have it. More than 20 million verified five-star reviews on Wayfair. Helps shoppers buy with confidence. Plus, Wayfair Rewards members get 5% back on every purchase. Transform your space with pieces that hold up to real life. Join Wayfair Rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

• 51:03Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today you and I are learning from Dr. Dolly Chugh, who's an award-winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. She is teaching you and me how to deal with people in our lives who will not change. So, Dr. Chug, let's talk about difficult people.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:22Mel Robbins?

  So let's talk about somebody who is always crossing the line.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:27Mel Robbins?

  I have someone in my life that just has this love of the jab.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:36Mel Robbins?

  I don't know if it's conversational style, but I bet as you're reflecting upon difficult people in your life, that there are just some people that when they are there, you're on edge.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:50Mel Robbins?

  You're just waiting for it. You're waiting for the political mark. You're waiting for the dismiss. You're waiting for them to say the passive aggressive thing.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:59Mel Robbins?

  How do you handle somebody?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:01Mel Robbins?

  That is insulting or difficult?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people can relate to what you're describing. And sometimes it's at the level of you're dreading the family gathering because that uncle is going to jab and often jab down, punch down. And by the way, they want you to take the bait. Now, listen, we do need to be careful because that person may be doing real harm to people in the room and to people out in the world. But what we can do in that moment with that person is rather than giving them more oxygen by going back and forth.

• 52:36Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  We can take some of the oxygen out in the moment.

• 52:39Mel Robbins?

  How do you take the oxygen out?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  So he says the thing, you can say ouch or whoa or my gosh, you don't look old enough to be that old fashioned. Now realize what I'm not doing is inviting an argument. What I am doing is telling everyone else in the room, that's not okay what we just heard.

• 53:01Mel Robbins?

  The only thing that I've ever said is something that I once heard Jefferson Fisher say, and it works like a charm, which is, did you actually mean to say that out loud?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Yes, I like that too.

• 53:10Mel Robbins?

  Because you are, because what are they going to be like? Yes, I mean to sound like a dickhead and like, you know, like, and no, there's kind of a weird silence thing that happens and then you get up and clear the table.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:24Mel Robbins?

  But often I just find it's not worth a response.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  It's another example of your, your not giving them oxygen, but you're also not endorsing it.

• 53:34Mel Robbins?

  Let's talk about dealing with somebody who gets really defensive.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:40Mel Robbins?

  The kind of person that is so hard to talk to because the second you try to give feedback, whether it's at work.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:48Mel Robbins?

  Or it's to one of your adult siblings.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:52Mel Robbins?

  They immediately get defensive. What do you do in that situation?

• 53:57Speaker 01

  So this happens all the time. I get defensive when I get feedback. I've noticed other people get defensive when I give them feedback. Sometimes the problem isn't the defensiveness, it's the feedback.

• 54:11Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  And so let-

• 54:12Mel Robbins?

  But I want them to be the problem. I don't want my feedback to be the problem, Dr.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Trust me, they are the problem, but let's figure out how we can show them that they're the problem. So feedback is a word that's often equated with adjectives. So what do I mean by adjectives? I might say to someone, your work isn't polished enough or it's not thorough enough. Polished and thorough are adjectives.

• 54:40Mel Robbins?

  Hmm.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  There's a lot of ways to understand what polished means. They might think that means there's no typos. They might think that means there's like good animation in their slides. They might think that means the way they talk to the customer. They might think that means that they're wearing certain clothes to work. And polished could mean a lot of things. And so when we give feedback that's in adjectives, it's really easy for other people to become defensive because it's easy for them to argue with it.

• 55:16Mel Robbins?

  Oh, so how do you give feedback that somebody can't argue with?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  The feedback that's hard to argue with and it's actually easier to act on. So if you're looking for a change that you'll actually get the change you want is it focuses on the behavior. So I might say, I've noticed that on the slides, there are inconsistencies in the way we refer to the client's business. On one slide, it said they were in the hospitality business. And in the other slide, it said food and beverage. To me, that looks like we haven't gone through and done a thorough proof read. It's not polished enough. So do you see how once I laid out the actual behaviors, it's indisputable?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  I just, you know, it says hospitality here, it says food and beverage there. It's a specific behavior. And now I can say, that's what I mean by it's not polished enough.

• 56:16Mel Robbins?

  You know what I felt as you were saying that?

• 56:18Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 56:18Mel Robbins?

  I started to feel defensive.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 56:21Mel Robbins?

  Because-

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Say more.

• 56:24Mel Robbins?

  Because I was realizing I am guilty of speaking in adjectives, especially with my family.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:32Mel Robbins?

  Because I get emotionally flooded.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:35Mel Robbins?

  When I see particularly just things that are a mess.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:41Mel Robbins?

  And oftentimes when we're giving feedback, we're already in a state where we're annoyed.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:47Mel Robbins?

  And that's how I can see that things could become very vague. I'm going to give you an example.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 56:55Mel Robbins?

  So I think I did a pretty good job on this.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:58Mel Robbins?

  So we have a bunk room at our house in Vermont. And one of the things that I love more than anything is that our son Oakley, who's 21, is home from college. And he and his best friends from high school have a window washing and odd job business. It's year four, shout out Sparkle Boys. And they are employing like 15 kids, like they're cranking it out. And they hang out at our house a lot and I frickin' love it.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:24Mel Robbins?

  And I am very clear with them, I'm not your maid. I'm not your mother. You're always welcome here and the fridge is stocked and the door is open and the arms are open for a hug.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 57:35Mel Robbins?

  But if you turn me into your maid.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:39Mel Robbins?

  Or your mom.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:41Mel Robbins?

  You are not going to be welcome here.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:42Mel Robbins?

  I work so hard that I do not appreciate coming home from a long day of work and seeing this place looking like a frat house.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:52Mel Robbins?

  And so the other day, and they've normally been really, really good.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:55Mel Robbins?

  But the other day I came home from being gone for eight days. And I walked into the bunk room and it looked like they had been hazing people in there. Like I was just like, and we all know how hard, bunk bed seems like the most amazing thing in the world until you have to make a bunk bed.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 58:12Mel Robbins?

  So normally, the old Mel volcano.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 58:17Mel Robbins?

  Would pick up the phone and call Oakley and be like, and I took a deep breath and I put them all on text and I said, hey, guys, just got home.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:30Mel Robbins?

  And wanted to share something with you. I took a photo of the beds and the towels on the floor and the wet bathing suits on the couch. And I said, does this look like leaving this in the way you found it? Is this representative of what you're capable of in terms of taking care?

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:59Mel Robbins?

  Of this house in the way that I've asked.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:03Mel Robbins?

  You to do.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:05Mel Robbins?

  No, no, no. We can do better. And I said, great, because after being gone for eight days and working as hard as I do, walking in here and seeing that you've left this for me.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:17Mel Robbins?

  Doesn't feel good.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  Right. Mel, that's amazing.

• 59:21Mel Robbins?

  I don't know how I had the restraint.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:25Mel Robbins?

  I can't even show you all the photos. Like, because once you see it, you're like, oh, my God, we left the house like that? Oh, she was coming home today? Like, if it was like that for seven days, I don't care, but not on the day that I arrived.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Not on day eight.

• 59:36Mel Robbins?

  You're not that dumb, right? Like-

• 59:38Speaker 01

  So what you did was another important dimension of feedback is to state your expectation. Good feedback at the workplace or at home includes a few elements. One, people have to know what good looks like, what the expectation is. So either they have to know in advance or if they didn't know in advance, or you didn't know in advance how to convey it, once you saw what it wasn't, you were able to convey it. Then they have to know what you saw, heard, the actual behavior that was the photo for you. The photo was the behavior. So you stated the expectation, you gave what you observed in the behavior, and then you described the impact it had.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  And from what I heard in your example, there was no adjective and you didn't need one. The adjective is the least useful part.

• 1:00:28Mel Robbins?

  Yes. Let me give you another example. Let's say you are having trouble getting your family to help. Whether it's help with the laundry or when you walk in the front door, don't just disrobe and drop it all right at the entry. There are cubbies.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:47Mel Robbins?

  If you have a mudroom for a reason, can the shoes go in the cubbies? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, can you, can you get the laundry moving so that it doesn't sit after you do the wash and then rotten there and stink? Like, can we get some help?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:01:04Mel Robbins?

  How do you get your family to help?

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  I use this when I'm teaching conflict resolution and negotiation classes to my MBA students. And I use this one in my own family and my marriage. It's the one to 10 rule. The question to ask myself and ask someone else, particularly when we disagree on something or I'm asking something of them, like in your example, asking them to do certain things around the home, is on a scale of one to 10, how important is this? 10 is the most important.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Sometimes what I'm asking for, when I'm asking them to hang the things up, the hanging up is not the 10. It's the me feeling heard is the 10. Me not being expected to do it for them is the 10. Sometimes maybe the hanging up is a 10. Maybe there are people coming over and no way am I going to be judged. Cause you know, I am going to be the one who's judged when someone comes to our home. By this is how I maintain a home. So maybe it is a 10 in that moment, but it's not always a 10. And I think sometimes the people around us hear everything as a 10 from us.

• 1:02:23Mel Robbins?

  And if everything's important, nothing is.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:02:26Mel Robbins?

  Exactly. So you stop and ask yourself, one to 10.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Mel Robbins?

  And what number am I acting on?

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. No, I mean, which like, yeah. And, and if you and the person in your family are having a discussion about this thing on the ground right now, on a one to 10 scale, how important is it to them that it be dropped on the floor?

• 1:02:47Mel Robbins?

  Well, see, I assume it's a one and that's why I'm offended and it's a 10. Because it's important to me, but it's not important to them. And if it were important to them, they would pick it up. Do you see what I'm saying? And this gets back to the.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  No, but how important is it to them to not listen to you?

• 1:03:00Mel Robbins?

  Oh. Probably a 10. Because their value might be, I'm my own person and you don't tell me what to do. I've been at college for two years, so I'm now an adult.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  This is my space. And when I come home from college and I don't feel like this is my space anymore. And I don't feel like these are my rules anymore. Needs something to be mine.

• 1:03:22Mel Robbins?

  Oh, you're really good. And also, if I've been working all day in the hot sun, washing disgusting windows and other people's houses, and I've had to pull it together and manage people, I'm freaking exhausted and I don't care about your damn house because I'm coming in.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:36Mel Robbins?

  And I want to relax for a minute.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:38Mel Robbins?

  Right. Oh, wow. I'm arguing about the thing on the floor.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:45Mel Robbins?

  But we're completely missing each other.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 1:03:49Mel Robbins?

  Cause the 10 that's important for me is, hey, I need help around here. And the 10 that's important for the person you're trying to change are completely different topics.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  I mean, what we do with my husband and I is if both of us are between one and seven, then whoever's the higher number wins and like, why are we even talking about this? Life is busy, let's move on. And if either of us is an eight, nine or 10, there's something to be understood here and discussed. It's worth our time. It's worth my, you know, effort.

• 1:04:17Mel Robbins?

  I love that. How do you know when you're supporting somebody versus enabling them?

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Oh gosh. Oh Mel, this feels like a dream sequence because I feel like this is the central growth area of my life and like.

• 1:04:33Mel Robbins?

  Adult children.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Yes. And like, you know, you're, the universe is trolling me and I've learned so much from your work on this very issue. So let me, let me step a little bit outside of my like expertise as a social psychologist and more into just my lived experience of seeing how the science of growth works. My definition of hell on earth is watching someone I love suffer and not being able to do anything about it. Being helpless. I honestly don't think there's any greater pain in this world. I know that a lot of people have been in this position where in an instant, we would take their pain. We would take their suffering.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  We would take their distress. But all we can do is bear witness to it. And that's what feels like hell. Sometimes what we think is supporting other people is us trying to deal with that feeling of hell. We're just trying to lower the pain of it by doing something. And while it might make us feel slightly less helpless, it's probably making things worse.

• 1:05:55Mel Robbins?

  Why does it make it worse? If you're providing the financial support or you're giving a place to live or you're doing the things that we want to do because we're trying, I think you're right, to feel like we're doing everything we can.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:12Mel Robbins?

  To support this person, but actually that soft cushion of support is keeping the person from hitting the edge of their experience.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:26Mel Robbins?

  And truly having to reckon with the consequences of the decisions that they're making and the patterns that they haven't been unwilling to unlearn yet or haven't been able to.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think the way you described it is exactly my sense of it as well. I'm also centering my own needs in that moment. I don't mean to, I love this person so much. That's why this is happening. But by me doing the things that make me feel better, it's a little harder for me to see what they need.

• 1:07:00Mel Robbins?

  Have you figured out, and, because I know this is deeply personal for all of us. And nobody can actually tell you, when is the appropriate time to keep doing and offering support and paying for things and stepping in because that's the thing that makes you feel like you're doing what you can do. And that's the thing that is the only part of this that you can control.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:27Mel Robbins?

  And when is it that you say, I recognize that this person does not want to change? They are not ready to change? And I am a participant at this point.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:39Mel Robbins?

  In propping up the dynamic.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:41Mel Robbins?

  And the only thing I can do now is remove myself from the dynamic. So this person has both the dignity of their own experience and they also have to feel the consequences of the way they're moving through life.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:57Mel Robbins?

  It's so personal. And I don't know if there's any kind of sliding scale ruler, like self-reflection to be able to really wrestle with yourself.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  I think though, just recognizing that we know it's hard for us to grow. And then we've talked about having empathy for how hard it is for others to grow. Sometimes it's hard for us to let others grow.

• 1:08:26Mel Robbins?

  I love that. You end two practices, Dr. Chug, in your classes, you call it shout outs and own it's.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Mel Robbins?

  So what is shout outs and own it's? And how can I and the person listening apply this?

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the classes I teach is about how to be a good boss. And one of the things in that sort of leadership type of class that we talk a lot about is noticing what people are doing well and expressing it to them. Now, this is leadership. I'm talking about how to be a good boss in the workplace, but it applies broadly. We are leaders in our families. We're leaders in our communities. We are leaders in our religious organizations. And so what we're doing at the end of this class is asking for volunteers to shout out a classmate. Again, it's often things that, the things that they shout out.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  I really appreciated when Mel asked that question because I was thinking it too, but I was really afraid to ask it. And the person who asked the question may not have thought twice about asking it, or they may have felt a lot of anxiety about asking it. And now that they hear that someone else was also sitting with that question, they feel less anxiety that was that question, a dumb question.

• 1:09:44Mel Robbins?

  You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to take a photo of those bunk beds when those boys make it and I'm going to put it in the group chat and shout it out. Great job, guys.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it. And then to own it is taking ownership for a way in which, you know, you didn't, you didn't kind of get it right that day. And by get it right, I mean, someone might say, listen, I want to own it. I had my phone out a lot during class today. I just had trouble being engaged and I'm really sorry. And I know it kind of affects everyone else when someone takes their phone out. Or I was late today. My small group had to get going without me and then spend time catching me up. I didn't manage my time right. I'm sorry.

• 1:10:20Mel Robbins?

  I love the own it.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  I love the own it. And I have to say, like in class, one thing I was thinking about this coming semester is we get a lot more shout outs than own it's, which makes sense. I mean, there's a lot more good than, than not going on, but I think I need to do more own it's myself to sort of motivate more own it's for my students as well, which is another thing we know about being a good boss is we want to be bringing out the best in others, but doing it in a way that shows we're taking accountability for when we're not at our best.

• 1:10:52Mel Robbins?

  Well, one of the things that you've taught us is that when it comes to trying to change other people, you can model, you can invite and reward. And shout outs are really, I'm really good at shout outs. I notice all the things going well to a fault.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:11:10Mel Robbins?

  And if you over compliment people.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:15Mel Robbins?

  Then you create an inability to hear criticism or to hear feedback. And so the own it piece as a parent, as a colleague, as a friend, owning it where you didn't show up, where you flubbed something, where you threw your crap in the entry after yelling at everybody else.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Mel Robbins?

  To me, that's modeling.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:44Mel Robbins?

  Change and accountability.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  I like that a lot.

• 1:11:47Mel Robbins?

  I do too.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  I like that a lot.

• 1:11:48Mel Robbins?

  That's one of the, that's a big thing. I'm taking a lot of things from this conversation, but I am going to pull that and own it.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:11:56Mel Robbins?

  In my life, as a parent, as a friend, and I think we may do shout outs and own it's here in our meetings. Because I feel like the muscle of owning it when things aren't going well, is something we can work on.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 1:12:11Mel Robbins?

  Um, so thank you for that. For the person who's listening, you have poured so much into us. I mean, when I think about what you've taught us about the difference between knowing better and doing better. This subtle, but serious moment of needing to unlearn behavior before you can change it.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:33Mel Robbins?

  Oh my gosh, the two questions to end every day. The tool after tool after tool that you gave us from pushing to pulling to the one to 10 rule. There was just so much here. If the person listening.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Takes just one action.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  What is the most important thing to do after you have listened to this episode? Other than sharing it with everybody you want to change?

• 1:13:00Mel Robbins?

  I love it.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  We're gonna let Dr. Chube change him.

• 1:13:04Mel Robbins?

  I would say, I bet everyone in your audience considers themselves a lifelong learner. What would it mean to be a lifelong learner and a lifelong unlearner?

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:13:17Mel Robbins?

  Like simply by listening?

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Mel Robbins?

  Today?

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Mel Robbins?

  And investing the time in yourself? You learned so much. And having that I'm a lifelong learner, I need to unlearn some things to continue to grow and to not prove anything. But as you said, to be improving.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:38Mel Robbins?

  The way that I feel about myself and the way that I approach life and the way that I connect with other people.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:43Mel Robbins?

  Amazing. Dr. Chube, what are your parting words?

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  I would say that hope and energy lies in growth. To just lean into that. There's all this pressure on us. We're so exhausted. We're being pulled in every direction. And sometimes that makes us feel like, oh, there's no more to do. I cannot do anymore. And I promise you that when we allow ourselves into this space, this space of growth, of improving rather than proving, we will feel more hope and more energy.

• 1:14:16Mel Robbins?

  You promised at the beginning, Dr. Chube, that we would feel lighter.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:21Mel Robbins?

  And we would feel a little bit more in control.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:27Mel Robbins?

  And I feel that after talking to you.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  You do?

• 1:14:29Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, I want to thank you because I learned so much today. It was, the conversation was not exactly how I thought it would be.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:14:40Mel Robbins?

  Even though we put a tremendous amount of upfront research in to get to the point to have the conversation.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:48Mel Robbins?

  But what you really did for me today, and I bet I'm speaking on behalf of you as well as you're listening, is I really reflected on myself. I thought that I was going to come in here and get all the tips and tricks to diffuse the jerks out there and to manipulate people to change and have everybody stop draining my energy. And what I realized is I'm actually draining my own energy.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:12Mel Robbins?

  I'm the one who's holding this impossible standard over myself. And then to fulfill my own needs to feel good, I'm pressuring everybody else. And there's a very different way you can go about this. And you made us smarter about change, the reality of it. And you also, I think, opened up this window of true compassion and empathy by helping us understand the dynamics. And I also appreciate the tactics.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  So thank you.

• 1:15:41Mel Robbins?

  I love your synopsis.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Thank you, Mel. This was great. Thank you for being you and thank you for having me here.

• 1:15:46Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my gosh, it's such a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. I hope you found it as fascinating and as helpful. I hope you reflected on how hard you are on yourself, that good, goodish balance, that whole distinction between constantly trying to prove that you got it all done and that you're good versus just exhale. What if you're just unlearning and learning and improving? And don't forget those two incredible questions. I love those. Did I do my best today? And what did I learn? You start asking that and I promise you, you're going to learn a lot about yourself and you're going to grow into the person that you are meant to be. And in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to tell you that I love

• 1:16:31Mel Robbins?

  you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the tools that Dr. Chube taught you today will help you create a better life and feel better in your life. I am certain of it. All righty, I'll see you in the next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play.

• 1:16:53Mel Robbins?

  It's question 10. Yeah, let me get, let me get to where we are. Therese, any notes? I know and it's written. Okay, lots of, try to take. I mean, it's so frustrating. You'll also learn how to stop wait. Do you like that? Let me do the top one more time. The science that's going to help you finally break free from the endless frustrating cycle. Oh, Jesus. Are you okay? Did that hit your head? Wow. Oh, well, that's, wow. Is it a magnet? Okay, here we go.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Okay, well, that was sounding great.

• 1:17:28Mel Robbins?

  Okay. Oh, here we go. No, just know today, here we go. Today, just go down a little more. Yep. Jesus, I literally have deleted this from my brain. Okay, let me look at my notes here.

• 1:17:43Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:18:17Speaker 03

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

• 1:18:26Mel Robbins?

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• 1:19:09Mel Robbins?

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