ENCORE: Edward Snowden | Meet the Press | 1

Filmmaker Laura Poitras gets a tip from a mysterious informant. Despite the enormous risks, Poitras pursues the story, and teams up with reporter Glenn Greenwald. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ http://wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lindsay Graham?

  Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. A listener note: This episode previously aired in 2022.

• 0:26Lindsay Graham?

  It's a weekday afternoon in late 2012. Edward Snowden is carrying a desktop computer through a long and empty hallway. The walls are reinforced with concrete, and the lights overhead are bright, fluorescent, and buzzing with menace. Snowden pauses to set down the large computer and catch his breath. He wipes away a bead of sweat from his forehead, and then Snowden shakes out his arms. He grabs the computer again and continues down the corridor, hoping he won't run into anyone. As he hurries down the hallway, Snowden tries to reassure himself that he's going to be fine. He's 29 years old, pale and lanky, looking a lot like the other guys here in this government installation outside Honolulu. The building is buried deep underground, underneath an old pineapple field. Everyone

• 1:11Lindsay Graham?

  working here had to say goodbye to the Hawaiian sun and accept that they aren't going to get much of a tan. So Snowden knows he doesn't look out of place, and it's not that suspicious for him to be carrying an old computer. He's an analyst with the National Security Agency, the kind of guy who spends his entire day on a computer, and this underground building is where he works. Still, Snowden can't help but feel a rising panic that's threatening to overwhelm him. He's about to carry out a dangerous plan. Snowden is going to blow the whistle on the United States government. He's going to reveal that the NSA has been conducting mass surveillance on American citizens without their knowledge. Snowden firmly believes the public deserves to know the truth, that American democracy could be at risk if the

• 1:55Lindsay Graham?

  country's intelligence agencies are left unchecked. But Snowden is also aware that doing the right thing could land him in prison, so he has to be careful. He has to get back to his office with this old PC, a computer that's central to his plan, and if he sees anyone, Snowden has to make sure they don't ask too many questions.

• 2:16Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden rounds a corner when suddenly he spots a director of IT. Snowden looks left and right, his heart pounding, but there's nowhere to escape. Hey Ed, I was just looking for you. Hi, what's up? Oh, nothing serious? You been running? You're a little sweaty. Running? No, I'm allergic to exercise. Okay, but you're doing alright? Yeah, I'm fine, I'm just a sweaty guy. Okay, alright, well anyways, uh, I've been getting reports of an internet slowdown. Just wanted to know if you guys were having issues too? Just fine, I think. Yeah, thanks for checking though. See you around. Snowden begins to walk forward, but the IT director lays a hand on his shoulder. Well, hold on, hold on. What do you got there? Is it one of the old Dells?

• 3:00Lindsay Graham?

  Yeah, yeah, actually it is. I thought we got rid of those when we upgraded. Well, it's funny, there's a whole closet of them. Why's that funny? What are you doing with it? Oh, you know, just, uh... Snowden's mind races, trying to come up with a good response. Stealing government secrets! The IT director pauses, giving Snowden a long and skeptical look. And for a moment Snowden is certain he's about to get caught. But then the IT director bursts out laughing. Ed, you, you are a weird one. Alright, I'll see you around. The director claps Snowden on the shoulder and walks away. And once he's out of sight, Snowden exhales in relief. That was close.

• 3:44Lindsay Graham?

  Snowden was certain his plan was about to go up in flames. But somehow, he survived. And now Snowden just needs to finish carrying out the plan. Snowden shifts the computer in his forearms and hustles to his office. There, he shuts the door and sets down the old desktop machine. Snowden gazes at the computer, reviewing the monumental task in front of him. He's about to steal top-secret documents from the NSA. He'll store them on this old computer, which doesn't have to be connected to government servers. It's safe and secure. And once he sorts through everything, Snowden is going to leak the files and show the public that the government has been breaking the law.

• 4:27Speaker 01

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• 4:57Lindsay Graham?

  Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on the Continental Army and secretly defects. He plots to hand over the most important fortress in the colonies to the British and doom the revolution he once served. Listen to American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:24Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scandal.

• 5:47Lindsay Graham?

  The terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, exacted a large toll on America's sense of security. The country was left reeling, and many suddenly found themselves feeling vulnerable and afraid. In the dawn of this new era, Congress moved to take swift action. Legislators passed a sweeping bill known as the Patriot Act. And in October of 2001, President George W. Bush signed the bill into law. The stated goal of the Patriot Act was to identify and strike back against terrorists. But in practice, the law had much wider-reaching effects. The country's intelligence agencies were granted new powers, which they used not only to spy on suspected terrorists, but to peer into the private lives of American citizens without warrants or cause.

• 6:32Lindsay Graham?

  This program of mass surveillance existed in the shadows for years. But everything changed in 2013, when an intelligence contractor named Edward Snowden decided to expose the truth, leaking more classified documents than any whistleblower in American history. Some heralded Snowden as a hero. Others believed he was a traitor and accused him of endangering national security. In this four-part series, we'll follow Edward Snowden's transformation from a respected intelligence officer to the most wanted whistleblower in the world. And we'll look at the journalists who risked their lives to bring Snowden's shocking revelations to the public, revealing some of the darkest secrets in American government. This is Episode 1: Meet the Press.

• 7:20Lindsay Graham?

  It's January 31st, 2013. Laura Poitras sits down at a booth in a diner in Manhattan. She opens the menu, and even though she's not very hungry, Poitras tries to find something to order, something that'll make her look just like any other customer at this Greasy Spoon. Poitras looks up from the list of sandwiches and scans the restaurant. It's fairly empty in here, and people are spaced pretty far apart. And that's good. Poitras can't risk being overheard, not with the sensitive conversation she's about to have with a journalist from The Washington Post.

• 7:53Lindsay Graham?

  Poitras herself is a documentary filmmaker. She's known for her critical views of America's war on terror and for speaking out against people in power. Her work has earned her a loyal fanbase, and Poitras has even been nominated for an Oscar. But the government apparently is not a fan of her documentaries. For years, she has been getting harassed by government agents. She's been detained at airports countless times, and Poitras knows she's been placed on government watchlists. It's clear these intimidation tactics are meant to silence her. But Poitras has never held back, because the filmmaker is driven by what she sees as a higher mission: to expose the government's lies, to get the truth out to the public. She knows that's the only way to safeguard democracy and hold elected leaders accountable.

• 8:38Lindsay Graham?

  Over the years, Poitras has uncovered some deeply troubling stories. But nothing even comes close to one of her recent leads. An anonymous source reached out with a shocking claim about government surveillance, one that could be big enough to change the direction of the country. But Poitras isn't sure if the source is telling the truth. That's why she reached out to journalist Barton Gelman. Gelman reports on national security for The Washington Post, and Poitras is hoping that he can help her vet this mysterious source.

• 9:11Lindsay Graham?

  The waiter arrives with a couple plates of food and sets them on the table. Poitres brushes her dark hair out of her face and Gelman offers a knowing smile. You're not even gonna touch that food, are you? Why would you say that? Well, you told me to leave my cellphone at home. You picked this spot where no one can hear us. You've got a crazy look in your eye. And judging by this whole cloak and dagger routine, I say we're not here for sandwiches. No, we're not. Okay, then what are we here for? Gelman pulls out a notebook and sets it on the table. But Poitres holds out her hand. Barton, no, no, I'm sorry. No phone, no notes, nothing. Okay. I won't record any identifying details. I don't care. No notes. All right. Gelman tucks away the notebook and Poitres takes a deep breath.

• 9:55Lindsay Graham?

  So here's the story. I received an encrypted email from a man claiming to be a member of the intelligence community. He says he has proof the government has a massive surveillance system. They're using it to spy on Americans. He wants me to help break the story. Wow, that would be a scoop. Um, don't take this the wrong way, but why'd he reach out to you? No, I'm not offended. I asked him the same question. Sounds like he's just a fan of my work. I think he also appreciates that I have personal experience with surveillance. All right, well, let's drill down. Has he shown you anything? Any proof? No, not yet, but he says he has documents. What is he, CIA, FBI? No, NSA.

• 10:37Lindsay Graham?

  He says they've got some kind of sweeping system, the kind of thing that could actually threaten democracy. Well, in theory, you've got an incredible story. How about in practice? You gotta tread carefully here. That's why I need your help. When we talked, he used a bunch of acronyms and I thought you could tell me if this guy sounds legit. Well, I can try. Okay, well, have you ever heard of boundless informant? All one word? No, but it sounds like NSA. How about SSO? Yeah, Special Source Operations. It's when a company gives the NSA access to their equipment. How about NSANET? Hmm, yeah, that's basically NSA's top secret Wikipedia. But it's not common knowledge. So you're telling me this guy could be genuine?

• 11:22Lindsay Graham?

  Well, he's certainly got a lot of inside information. I don't know. I mean, he could be feeding you bad information, trying to discredit you or something. I mean, gun to my head, he sounds real. Poitras takes a sip of water and looks up at Gelman. When Barton, this guy wants to get out these documents. He wants them properly framed for the public. But that's something for a print journalist. I'm a filmmaker. Are you, are you asking me to partner with you? Yeah, I am. I have to run it by my source, but if he says yes... Laura, I've got a lot of questions. But I am interested. So yeah, let's see where this goes.

• 12:00Lindsay Graham?

  Poitras smiles. This is a big moment, getting a reporter from The Washington Post to come on board. They have a long history of breaking important stories. The Pentagon Papers, Watergate. And while the source may not be comfortable involving someone else, for Poitras, it is the only way to make things work. The story could be huge. And if she's going to share it with the world, she's gonna need some support. She hopes to convince her mysterious source to agree to a change of plans.

• 12:31Lindsay Graham?

  Four months later, Barton Gelman knocks on the door of a hotel room in Manhattan. There's a click of a deadbolt, and slowly the door cracks open. Gelman looks up to find the filmmaker Laura Poitras standing in the doorway. Her dark hair is a mess and her eyes are bloodshot. Gelman knows her disheveled appearance can mean only one thing. She got the files from her source and must have been up all night reading them. Poitras opens the door, and Gelman steps in. After meeting with Poitras at the diner, Gelman followed through on his offer. He got involved in the story. And soon, he was exchanging encrypted emails with the source, a man who went by the alias "verax," the Latin word for telling the truth. And after a few exchanges, Gelman's doubts disappeared.

• 13:15Lindsay Graham?

  He was certain that this verax was the real deal.

• 13:20Lindsay Graham?

  But the trust didn't cut both ways. Veract was concerned that Gelman was reporter for The Washington Post, part of the mainstream press. He feared Gelman might be too close to his sources in government, that he'd water down or even squash any revelations about the NSA. But though it took some time, eventually Gelman earned his trust. Verax agreed to turn over a trove of documents. Now, walking through the small hotel room, Gelman is brimming with excitement. Can't wait to see what the source handed over. If it's as big as Verax says it is, this could be the scoop of a lifetime. Poitras leads Gelman past a pile of clothes and camera equipment. The filmmaker gestures to her computer and tells Gelman to take a seat.

• 14:04Lindsay Graham?

  When he does, Poitras enters a passcode, and a file begins to decrypt. When it's done, Gelman shakes his head in disbelief. The file is eight gigabytes, enormous. A single gigabyte of data can produce tens of thousands of pages. Gelman had hoped Verax would hand over a significant number of documents, but this is more than he ever dreamed of. Gelman begins to laugh, but Poitras interrupts his reverie and impatiently taps the computer screen. It's time to start reading. Gelman nods and clicks on a random folder. When it opens, he finds thousands of files. He doesn't have any kind of strategy to get through them all, so he clicks on the very first document he sees. But as soon as it opens, Gelman feels a rush of adrenaline.

• 14:49Lindsay Graham?

  He knows some of these terms. They have to do with a data mining operation called Stellar Wind. Gelman knows the program began under the Bush administration. And from everything he's heard, Stellar Wind allowed intelligence agencies to siphon up massive amounts of personal information from American citizens: emails, phone records, financial transactions. Gelman has spent years reporting on the program, trying to learn what he could, but he could never put together the full picture. It was all out of reach. But now, staring at this computer screen, Gelman is astonished. This is it, the full details of Stellar Wind. And it looks like this single program is just the tip of the iceberg.

• 15:30Lindsay Graham?

  Gelman's hands begin to tremble as he clicks one file after another, trying to take it all in. It goes on and on, file after file. It's almost too much to wrap his head around. But just as Gelman begins to lose focus, he opens a document that stops him cold. It details an ongoing intelligence operation. There's even a photo of an undercover agent still in the field. Gelman suddenly feels nauseated. They shouldn't have this. This is top secret for a very serious reason. And without thinking, Gelman shuts the laptop and mutters a curse. This is bigger than he ever thought possible. But it's also far more dangerous. If these files fall in the wrong hands, American agents could be compromised, even killed.

• 16:13Lindsay Graham?

  Gelman looks up at Poitras, says they need to talk, and they're gonna need lawyers too. Because if they're not careful, these files could land them in prison.

• 16:26Lindsay Graham?

  It's May 26, 2013, five days later. Laura Poitras settles onto a leather couch in a living room in New York City. Over in the kitchen, her collaborator Barton Gelman is filling a couple of glasses with ice cubes and opening a bottle of whiskey. Poitras sighs. She hopes the drinks are stiff, because right now she's badly on edge. Tomorrow, Poitras is supposed to set off on the most dangerous trip of her entire career. Worse than when she traveled alone in Iraq. Her source, Berax, has revealed that he's hiding out in Hong Kong. He invited Poitras and Gelman to join him there, and he offered to walk them through all the stolen documents and talk more about his motives.

• 17:09Lindsay Graham?

  Poitras is packed and ready to go, but Gelman isn't there yet. The reporter spent the day talking with lawyers at The Washington Post, trying to understand their risk. Poitras knows the attorneys may have tried to steer Gelman away from the story. But she hasn't lost her conviction. The world needs to find out about this, and she's hoping to convince her fellow journalists not to bail. Gelman steps out of the kitchen, holding two glasses of whiskey. And when he takes a seat, he looks at Poitras and says they need to talk. Gelman begins with the good news. The Washington Post will stand by the story. They'll even provide legal support. But the paper's attorneys warn Gelman that he and Poitras were taking an incredible risk. If they travel to Hong Kong to meet the source, Chinese or American intelligence agents could

• 17:53Lindsay Graham?

  well raid the meeting. And if they're arrested with top-secret documents, the US could press criminal charges. Even if they only have notes about the documents, the two of them could still go to jail. Poitras nods and says she understands. Just means they need to be careful. But Gelman holds up his hand and says he's not finished. Apparently, Chinese agents are known to bug hotel rooms in Hong Kong. So even if they only talk about classified documents, they could still face charges. The US could accuse them of passing classified information to a foreign intelligence agency. They could be charged as spies.

• 18:31Lindsay Graham?

  For a moment, Gelman looks down, not saying a word. Seemed downtrodden and defeated. And Poitras realizes what's about to happen. Gelman is going to bail on this. Poitras begins to speak, but Gelman cuts her off and says he's sorry. He really is. But he's not going to Hong Kong. He can't take that kind of risk. And for what seems like an eternity, the two sit in silence, finishing their whiskey. Finally, Gelman looks up and asks what Poitras is planning to do. Poitras admits she's not sure. It feels wrong not to go to Hong Kong. Would she be lying if she says she wasn't scared? Gelman nods, saying he understands. He's sure that in the end, she'll do the right thing, whatever it is.

• 19:15Lindsay Graham?

  Poitras sets down her glass and rises. She thanks Gelman for the drink and for everything else. She wishes this could work out, but she understands too. The two say goodbye. And several moments later, as Poitras steps back into the night air of Manhattan, she once again finds herself lost in thought. Poitras has never let fear stop her before. But doing this alone doesn't make sense. She's a filmmaker, and making a movie takes time. But they don't have time. Not for this story. It needs to get out into the world. Hoytress grimaces as she puzzled through an impossible situation. She can't let this story die. It's too important. And then suddenly it hits her. What if someone else came with her to Hong Kong?

• 19:58Lindsay Graham?

  Maybe another journalist, someone who could interview the source, report on the documents, and explain why everyone in America should care. That could save the story. It could get the truth out into the world. But making this happen won't be easy. Hoytress would have to find someone willing to take on a huge risk and make that decision in just a matter of days.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 21:08Speaker 03

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• 21:51Speaker 03

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• 22:15Lindsay Graham?

  It's May 27, 2013, in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The journalist Glenn Greenwald is sitting inside his home office, focused intently on his computer screen. It feels like his hands are flying across the keyboard. He's pounding out sentence after sentence, writing a column he has to finish by the end of the day. Greenwald stops only to take a sip of coffee, and as he resumes typing, his cellphone rings. Greenwald ignores it, he doesn't have time to chat. As a political journalist, Greenwald has deadlines to hit, and today he has to file a piece for The Guardian, the acclaimed international newspaper based out of England. As the cellphone keeps ringing, Greenwald rereads the paragraph he just drafted. It centers on privacy and the erosion of civil rights after 9/11, issues that have

• 23:00Lindsay Graham?

  been at the center of his work for years. Greenwald is steeped in American politics, and as a journalist, he's earned an international reputation as someone willing to call out the hypocrisy of the US government. The cellphone rings again, and Greenwald mutters a curse. He's lost focus. But when he looks over at the phone and sees the caller ID, Greenwald suddenly sits up. It's Laura Poitras, the documentary filmmaker. The two have a longstanding relationship, and just a few years ago, Greenwald wrote an article about the interrogations Poitras faced every time she re-entered the United States. Apparently, the article had a big effect, and harassment stopped after the piece was published. Ever since then, the two have stayed in touch.

• 23:44Lindsay Graham?

  So Greenwald is always happy to chat with Poitras, but right now, there's another reason he's excited she's calling. Last month, Poitras told Greenwald she was cultivating an important source, someone with proof that the NSA was spying on innocent Americans. Greenwald wanted to learn more, but since then, he hadn't heard anything and assumed the story was dead. But now, Poitras is calling out of the blue. Greenwald has to assume there's an update, so he forgets about his deadline and grabs the phone.

• 24:14Lindsay Graham?

  When he answers, Poitras is curt and to the point. She says they have to talk, but not over the phone. Soon Greenwald and Poitras begin chatting using a program called Off the Record, which lets them send encrypted instant messages. Without much of a preamble, Poitras asks Greenwald if he'd be willing to go to Hong Kong. He could meet the whistleblower in person. Greenwald pauses, stunned. He wasn't expecting this, but then his journalistic instincts kick in. He begins asking some vital questions. Who is the source? How did he steal documents? How do they know he's telling the truth? Poitras explains that even though they're speaking over encrypted messages, there's a limit to what she can say. But she can offer some assurances. She vetted the source.

• 24:59Lindsay Graham?

  He's the real deal. The only question is whether Greenwald wants in. Greenwald hesitates. Normally, he needs more information than this before taking on such a large story. But Poitras says he's going to have to make a decision fast. Every day they wait, there's a greater risk the source will be arrested. But if he's feeling uncomfortable, Poitras can have the source get in touch with Greenwald and answer some of his questions. Greenwald agrees that's a good idea. And with that, the two end the conversation and sign off. Greenwald takes a deep breath, then pushes back his chair and begins pacing the room. This is a big decision. If the whistleblower has actual documents from the NSA,

• 25:41Lindsay Graham?

  it could change the national conversation about privacy. It could even lead to some of the programs being shut down. Americans could finally regain some of their civil liberties, rights that Greenwald knows have been trashed by the government for years. But Greenwald still has some nagging questions. He doesn't understand why the whistleblower went to Hong Kong. The region is closely tied to China, a country hostile to the United States. And while Greenwald does trust Poitras, it's possible the filmmaker misjudged her source, that she's walking into a trap. Greenwald doesn't want to end up in some Chinese jail. His life would be over. But he also knows this could be a once-in-a-generation story. He shouldn't just walk away from it because he's scared. So Greenwald makes up his mind.

• 26:26Lindsay Graham?

  He'll take the offer and speak with the source himself. Maybe that'll be enough. Maybe he'll come away feeling as confident as Poitras. And maybe he'll be able to publish a story that'll change the world.

• 26:41Lindsay Graham?

  Four days later, journalist Glenn Greenwald takes a seat in the US headquarters of the international newspaper The Guardian. Greenwald reaches for a laptop tucked inside his bag. As he slides the computer across the table, Greenwald's editor, Janine Gibson, gives a wry smile. Gibson is a veteran journalist, says she's been eagerly anticipating this meeting. She's excited and honestly nervous to see what Greenwald has dug up. Greenwald nods, his editor is right to feel a sense of anticipation. Because with everything he's learned these past few days, Greenwald knows this could be the story of a lifetime. Several days ago, he made contact with Laura Poitras's whistleblower, a man who goes by the alias "Verax."

• 27:24Lindsay Graham?

  To help prove his legitimacy, the source sent over about two dozen documents he claimed were from the NSA. Greenwald spent a lot of time reviewing the files. From everything he can tell, this whistleblower is the real thing. According to one of the leaked documents, the NSA has been running a surveillance program that lets the government tap directly into the data of major internet companies like Google, Facebook, and Apple. The program, which is known as PRISM, also has the power to record live calls happening on services like Skype. It can even target individual citizens and monitor their digital messages. Greenwald had initially been skeptical of this whistleblower. But after reviewing the files, all doubts quickly vanished.

• 28:06Lindsay Graham?

  It's now abundantly clear that Greenwald has to go with Poitras to Hong Kong. He has to interview this source and get this story out into the world. But Greenwald also knows he can't do any of this without support of The Guardian. When the story gets out, the United States government will almost certainly come after him. And as a freelancer, Greenwald can't take on such an enormous fight. That's why he came to meet with his editor. Greenwald needs a commitment from The Guardian, a guarantee that the paper and its legal team will stand behind him, no matter what.

• 28:39Lindsay Graham?

  So Greenwald shifts in his chair, watching nervously as Gibson reads from his laptop, looking at the leaked documents he's been poring over. Greenwald doesn't know how his editor is going to react. They haven't worked together long. He almost feels compelled to interrupt her reading to explain his interpretations of the files. But just then Gibson slouches in her chair and lets out a curse. "These documents are incredible," she says. "Greenwald needs to be on a flight to Hong Kong as soon as possible." Greenwald shuts his eyes and laughs. It's a huge relief, and exactly what he was hoping to hear. But Greenwald's editor says to get the backing of The Guardian, she does have one condition. She wants to put another reporter on the story. Greenwald is right, this is a huge deal. So he's going to need some help with the reporting.

• 29:24Lindsay Graham?

  Gibson says she wants to tap a veteran named Ewan McCaskill. He's been at The Guardian for 20 years and he's a stellar reporter. Gibson will make sure he's ready to leave for Hong Kong right away. Greenwald freezes, as he processes this sudden change of plan. The whistleblower, Varax, only gave approval for two people to come and meet him. Laura Poitras and Greenwald himself. Any divergence from the original plan could spook him, and Varax might bolt. Adding another reporter could risk the entire story. Greenwald shares his concerns, but his editor says it's non-negotiable. The fact is, she barely knows Greenwald. The editors in London, her bosses, don't know him either. He's only been freelancing with the paper for nine months.

• 30:08Lindsay Graham?

  So if he wants to move forward with the paper's support, they need someone else in the room, someone the paper knows and trusts. Greenwald sighs. He doesn't like it, but he understands the position. And if this is what it takes, he'll try to convince Laura Poitras they need to pivot, and that the source will have to be okay with this new arrangement.

• 30:30Lindsay Graham?

  Outside the conference room where Glenn Greenwald is meeting with his editor, Laura Poitras sits swiveling back and forth in an office chair. She's feeling nervous and antsy. If she's going to travel to Hong Kong and tell the story of this whistleblower, she'll need help from a reporter like Greenwald. She can't do this on her own. But Greenwald needs help from The Guardian to get their backing for the story. The two agreed he should sit down with his editor by himself and have the conversation. But now, as Poitras sits waiting on an answer, she feels like she's losing her mind. She doesn't know why it's taking so long. She can't stop worrying that The Guardian is about to walk away from the story. Poitras is almost ready to get up and burst into the meeting.

• 31:12Lindsay Graham?

  When suddenly the door opens and Greenwald walks out. Sweat has seeped through his shirt, and he has a pained expression on his face. Poitras shoots up out of her chair. Oh, it's bad news. They're backing out. No, no, Laura, cool off. Don't tell me to cool off. We've got the story of a generation. What'd they say in there? Well, I've got good and bad news. The good news is The Guardian's all in. They'll book us on a flight to Hong Kong tomorrow. Really? Oh, that's incredible. What about the bad news? Well, I've pushed back, but they want to send another reporter with us. A guy who's been with them a long time, someone they trust. Oh, no, Glenn, that's a deal breaker. Absolutely not. Well, if we say no, it's a deal breaker for them, too. I don't care what they want. We haven't vetted whoever this is.

• 31:56Lindsay Graham?

  Most importantly, our source hasn't vetted them. If we show up with someone else, Barracks is going to call off the whole thing, and you know it. That's what I said. But you've got to look at it this way. When the government lawyers come after us, and they will, we're going to need The Guardian's legal team. It's that simple. Poitras bites her lip. She knows Greenwald is right. But changing the arrangements now could sink the story. We need some kind of Plan B. How about this? You and I go to Hong Kong first, just the two of us. We meet the source, we gain his trust, and then, once we're ready, this other reporter comes along. I can ask, but no promises. Glenn, go back in there. Make your case. And don't take no for an answer.

• 32:41Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald swallows and gives a silent nod. And as Poitras looks over at the conference room, she can't help but bristle with anger. This story could change everything. It would shine a bright light on one of the most egregious acts of government abuse in decades. So even with all the editors and lawyers and anyone else, she can't risk screwing this up. They have to do it right. With even one misstep, this story could collapse and the truth might never come out.

• 33:13Speaker 04

  For decades, two legendary brands fought for the hearts of American bikers: Indian Motorcycle and Harley-Davidson. The battle looked a lot like Coke versus Pepsi or Ford versus Chevy, but tastes changed and Indian didn't adapt fast enough. The icon all but died. Then came the con men, the dreamers, a string of spectacular failures that kept Indian in the grave, until one company finally got it right. This is the story of an improbable revival and the reignition of an old rivalry. Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of the podcast Business Wars. And every season, we bring you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world. Indian's new owners are going all in, but an existential crisis looms. Can Indian and Harley recruit enough younger riders to survive?

• 33:56Speaker 04

  Make sure to follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 34:08Speaker 05

  You stepped out for your morning jog, except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 34:46Lindsay Graham?

  It's the morning of June 1st, 2013, in Manhattan. Laura Poitras slides into the back of a Lincoln Town Car. The filmmaker sets her travel bag on the middle seat. And as the car pulls out onto the road, Poitras glances over, across the backseat, and locks eyes with Glenn Greenwald, the journalist from The Guardian and Poitras's collaborator. Poitras and Greenwald exchange a knowing smile. Finally, after all the false starts, after all the stress and uncertainty, the two of them are about to catch a plane to Hong Kong. They're going to get a chance to sit down with their mysterious informant and talk at length about the secrets of America's intelligence apparatus. It should be an incredible opportunity, and Poitras feels fortunate they've gotten this far.

• 35:29Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald's editor at The Guardian had insisted on sending another reporter, but in some divine miracle, Greenwald managed to convince his editor to back down. She agreed not to send the reporter until he and Poitras first gave her the okay. So now they're off and headed to the airport. And soon they'll touch down on a tarmac in Hong Kong and begin reporting what could be the most important story of their lives. In the backseat of the Town Car, Poitras looks over at Greenwald. It's strange, he's got a look on his face, almost like he's holding something back. Glenn, what's on your mind? Huh? Oh, nothing, nothing, yeah, no, don't worry. Of course I'm gonna worry, what's going on? Talk to me. Well, I got a call late last night.

• 36:13Lindsay Graham?

  The Guardian booked McCaskill a ticket to Hong Kong and he's on our same flight. Are you kidding me? You said you took care of this. You said The Guardian wasn't gonna send anyone until after we gave them the green light. I know, but McCaskill, he's not gonna meet the source until we approve it. No, no, no, we had an agreement. You can't just change the plan at the last minute. What happens if our source comes to the airport and sees this guy? Someone we never told him about? I, I, I know, I know. He's gonna bail! He's gonna bail! What happened, Glenn? I don't know, I'm sorry Laura, I tried. Look, I'll stay behind if that's what we want. Don't be ridiculous, our source is expecting you. He wants you to be there, and I need you there. And what do we wanna do? I don't know, I don't know, let me think. Poitras stares out the window at the crush of city traffic.

• 36:58Lindsay Graham?

  And then she gets a thought. What about this? We can, uh, at least try to create some distance. On the plane and at the airport in Hong Kong, we don't say a word to McCaskill. We don't even look at him. If anyone's watching, they won't have any reason to think we're connected. Okay, sounds good. We can do that. Yeah, and one more thing. No more surprises, alright? We have to be able to trust each other.

• 37:23Lindsay Graham?

  Poitras takes a deep breath. The entire mission is now compromised. It could fall apart the second they get off the plane in Hong Kong. Everything is about to get very complicated. And when that happens, they have to feel like they're on the same team. They have to be able to trust each other. So Poitras decides that now is the time for a big gesture. A gesture of trust. The filmmaker reaches into her bag and pulls out a thumb drive. She hands it to Greenwald and then sits back without saying a word. She knows she doesn't have to. Both of them know what she just offered up. The entire collection of top-secret files from Bearax. Everything that Poitras has been keeping to herself. Greenwald nods. Now they're teammates, working together. That was a big step.

• 38:07Lindsay Graham?

  And as the situation grows more and more dangerous, they're going to need to have each other's backs and do whatever it takes to protect each other and finish what they've started.

• 38:18Lindsay Graham?

  Two days later, Laura Poitras sits down on a shiny couch right beside a large, plastic crocodile. Poitras glances at the plastic lizard and shakes her head. The documentary filmmaker has always imagined she was going to meet her source in a dingy little hideout. She didn't expect to be sitting here in a five-star hotel in Hong Kong, surrounded by a bunch of edgy artwork. But that's the way things have shaken out. And right now, Poitras isn't going to question the plan. It's thorough and elaborate, and Poitras is going to do exactly what her source is expecting of her. It started this morning when she and Glenn Greenwald took a cab to the hotel and made their way to the third floor. They asked the first employee they saw if the restaurant was open.

• 39:00Lindsay Graham?

  That was part of the plan, a move they agreed upon with the source as a way to show they hadn't been followed. Poitras assumed that Varax was listening in somewhere nearby. At 10:15, they stepped into this conference room, the one with the plastic crocodile, and they waited exactly two minutes. Poitras and Greenwald were supposed to meet a man carrying a Rubik's Cube, but when the man didn't show up, they left the room, as instructed, and came back three minutes later. Poitras checks her watch. It's been seven minutes since they first entered the conference room, and their source still hasn't shown up. Poitras begins to grow sick with anxiety. Maybe she said something wrong the last time they spoke.

• 39:42Lindsay Graham?

  Maybe Varax saw the other reporter from The Guardian and bailed. Or maybe it's something else. Maybe they're being played or about to be arrested. Poitras doesn't know any of it, and she doesn't know what to do. But right as her nerves begin to get the best of her, there's a noise behind them, and Poitras turns, seeing the door open. For a moment, Poitras feels like she can't breathe. This could be him. And then, a skinny young man steps into the room. He has light brown hair and rectangular glasses. He's wearing a white t-shirt, and he's fidgeting with a Rubik's Cube. Poitras' eyes go wide. This is him. It's their source. But Poitras is shocked. He's so young.

• 40:26Lindsay Graham?

  He looks like he should be fixing iPhones at the Genius Bar, not smuggling out government secrets. Poitras shakes her head, trying to regain her composure. And then she realizes she hasn't completed her instructions. So she stands and asks the young man how the food is at the hotel. The young man then replies, "Unfortunately, the food is bad." Then the man tells Poitras and Greenwald to follow him. Poitras exchanges a nervous look with Greenwald. She has no idea where this man is leading them. If they misread this situation, this could be their last moment of freedom. But Greenwald gives a nervous smile. He's still in. And Poitras returns the gesture with a curt nod. She's in too. The two of them then follow their source to a small elevator.

• 41:10Lindsay Graham?

  And as they step inside, Poitras tries to remain calm. It's only a matter of time before they find out if this is real or some kind of elaborate trap.

• 41:22Lindsay Graham?

  Moments later, Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, and the pale young man in a t-shirt step out of an elevator onto the 10th floor. The three of them walk down a carpeted hallway. Greenwald's heart pounds in his chest. He too knows this could be a setup. They could be arrested. Or maybe, this young man is actually their source. Either way, Greenwald wants to move fast and start the interview. They may not have much time before something happens and someone is dragged away in handcuffs.

• 41:53Lindsay Graham?

  Just then, the young man stops in front of a hotel room. He inserts his key card and swings open the door. And when they step inside, the man apologizes for the mess. The bed is unmade, and dishes from room service are all over the floor. The man opens a mini-fridge, tells Greenwald and Poitras to put their cellphones inside. He explains there's always a chance someone could activate the microphones remotely. The man then grabs some pillows from the bed and jams them underneath the door of the hotel room. That should keep anyone in the hallway from listening in on their conversation. Greenwald thinks normally this would look a little paranoid, but after everything he's now read about the NSA's secret programs, he's certain that these precautions are necessary.

• 42:36Lindsay Graham?

  Greenwald grabs a chair and takes a seat as Poitras begins setting up her camera. A moment later, she announces she's recording. Greenwald suddenly feels stiff and uncomfortable. They didn't have any time to warm up to each other. No pleasantries or small talk. Straight to business. But that's what this situation calls for. So Greenwald pulls out his notebook and tells the man he'd like to jump right in. They have a lot to get through. The source agrees, and taking one last look at Poitras, Greenwald clears his throat and asks the most pressing question. What is the whistleblower's name? And where does he work? The man nods and says his name is Edward Snowden.

• 43:14Lindsay Graham?

  He's 29 years old, and he works as an analyst for the NSA in Hawaii. Greenwald pauses to let this sink in. This is happening. This is real. He's now officially met the man responsible for the biggest national security leak in American history. A man willing to risk his life in order to confront the United States government. Greenwald has so many questions. He wants to know what motivated this young man to take such a big risk. How did he get access to such highly classified material? And how did he manage to pull off such an enormous heist? Greenwald's head spins as he considers his next question. There's so much to discuss, but they'll just have to do this one question at a time and

• 43:57Lindsay Graham?

  pray they don't get caught. From Wondery, this is episode one of Edward Snowden from American Scandal. In our next episode, we go back in time when, in the wake of 9/11, a younger Edward Snowden was inspired to serve his country. But Snowden's beliefs would soon be challenged as he discovered the dark side of the NSA. American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 44:42Lindsay Graham?

  And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com. That's historyishuman.com. If you'd like to learn more about Edward Snowden, we recommend the books Dark Mirror by Barton Gellman, No Place to Hide by Glenn Greenwald, and the documentary film Citizen Four from Laura Poitras. This episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsay Graham, for Airship. Audio editing by Molly Bach. Sound design by Derek Behrens. Music by Lindsay Graham.

• 45:26Lindsay Graham?

  This episode is written by Austin Rackless, edited by Christina Mallsberger. Our senior producer is Gabe Ribbon. Executive producers are Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer Beckman, and Marsha Louie for Wondery.

• 45:42Speaker 06

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and ad-free on Audible.