Pod Insights Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi 193. “I’ve filed for bankruptcy twice. Will I ever stop spending?” (Part 1) About this episode Despite their best intentions, LaKiesha (38) and James (45) have fallen into a cycle of overspending—convincing themselves that wants are needs and that enjoying money now outweighs planning for the future. Their lack of financial foresight has left them without a safety net, and the weight of their debts has even led LaKiesha to file for bankruptcy.
Recently, they moved in together; but with that fresh start comes the baggage of their complicated financial pasts. Trust has been tested, and they’re being forced to confront their differences in financial values and upbringing. Can they break free from the habits that have kept them stuck?
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Transcript 13,615 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Ramit Sethi? When I was thinking about quitting my last job to do I Will Teach You To Be Rich full-time, I created a rule for myself. I couldn't go full-time with IWT until it earned at least as much as my monthly salary for three months in a row. And this really helped me take my business seriously. Now, for new business owners, I recommend something similar. And as you are getting set up, I also recommend keeping things simple by using Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, including brands like Mattel and Jimm Shark. They've got ready-to-go, beautiful templates for important things like your website, landing pages.
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2:32 Ramit Sethi? On today's episode.
2:33 Speaker 01 As it relates to money, I don't value it. It's disposable.
2:37 Ramit Sethi? Meet Lakeisha and James. Lakeisha is 38, James is 45, and they are caught in a cycle of overspending.
2:45 Speaker 02 Getting things that I can't afford, but I will convince myself that is out of necessity.
2:49 Speaker 01 I have set my future self up for failure. I have not thought about the future because the future seems so far away. And I wanted to enjoy my money now.
2:57 Ramit Sethi? Their spending habits have stopped them from saving and investing.
3:01 Speaker 02 It's heartbreaking. I wish I did have savings.
3:03 Speaker 01 There was nobody else to hold me accountable.
3:07 Ramit Sethi? And they've both accumulated a lot of debt, which has even caused Lakeisha to file for bankruptcy.
3:13 Speaker 02 I know for a fact that I need to do better with money.
3:16 Ramit Sethi? Lakeisha and James recently moved in together and they have brought their complicated financial histories with them.
3:23 Speaker 01 I got a chat and it was in her handwriting, but it was from my account and it was to Tiffany's. It said on the memo line, mom's birthday gift.
3:32 Speaker 02 My dad was the breadwinner in our house. He was like, work hard and get by. That's how I've been living the last 40 something years of my life.
3:41 Ramit Sethi? Can they work through their money histories and create a shared vision of a rich life?
3:46 Speaker 01 We've talked about money, but it's some more from a lack of, right? I want to get on the other side of that.
3:52 Ramit Sethi? Let's meet Lakeisha and James.
4:01 Ramit Sethi? I'm about to open up James and Lakeisha's conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth, income, and where they spend. You can download your own version of the conscious spending plan or CSP at I W T dot com slash CSP.
4:19 Ramit Sethi? Okay, I'm looking at the CSP for James and Lakeisha. James is 45, Lakeisha is 38. Let's take a look here. Assets, James has no assets. Lakeisha has $21,000. No investments, no savings. Okay, James has $26,000 of debt. Lakeisha has $165,000. Didn't she just declare bankruptcy? I don't understand this. Combined, they have $190,000 of debt. Okay, let's look at the income. He makes $5,000 a month, so about $60,000 a year. She makes $7,300 a month, so about $88,000 per year. Okay, I mean, combined, that's a lot of money.
5:04 Ramit Sethi? But individually, we can already see in the fixed costs, he's at 67%, which is too high. And let me just look here. Yeah, that doesn't include his debt payments are $25 a month. So that's actually artificial. It's going to be much higher, probably like 73, 75%. She's at 69%. She's paying $205 a month in debt payments. There's no way, if you have $165,000, you're paying thousands per month. So that's also artificially low, probably like 80%. All right. Well, a couple of other things that stand out to me in their fixed costs. Their rent or their mortgage is quite low, 16%. That's not bad. Car payment, a little high, 950. Okay.
5:47 Ramit Sethi? Groceries, only 400 bucks? Okay, that's good. Cigars and alcohol? Excuse me, I don't recall putting that in my CSP. Was that a line item I added? Anybody? Okay. How are you going to add $450 a month for cigars and alcohol when you have $190,000 in debt? No, no, no, no, we're going to fix this. Cell phones, 125 and 170. I guarantee you at least one, maybe both of them are paying for their kids and other people. Subscriptions are not bad. 110 total? And miscellaneous, 330 and $500 a month? No, we're going to fix that. Zero investments, zero savings, that's not acceptable. And then, yeah, I don't believe this guilt-free spending number.
6:30 Ramit Sethi? It's basically, I think they just don't track it at all. And I do think they spend thousands. The CSP indicates $3,103 together, but I don't think they know how much they spend. So we'll, we'll find out about that. The reason I don't think that, some people spend a large amount of money on guilt-free spending, and I can tell that they're probably telling the truth. You can see the clues in the CSP. The fact that they have $190,000 of debt, and they're paying almost nothing towards their debt, tells me they're not carefully tracking any of this. The fact that they have zero savings and zero investments tells me that there's a lot of sloppiness that we can work together to improve.
7:10 Ramit Sethi? Now, the good news is they do have thousands of dollars left over per month. So that's good. Now we need to figure out how to reallocate this money. For me, I'm looking at their fixed costs. They don't have a lot of huge fixed costs. We're going to fix that cigar and alcohol thing right now. We're going to fix that miscellaneous thing right now. And we're going to get some savings and investments going. But I need to understand more about what brought them to this place. I'm excited to talk to James and Lakisha.
7:42 Ramit Sethi? Before we jump in, I want to share a few things. Lakisha and James are in a romantic relationship, and they recently moved in together. There's a possibility of marriage in the future, but according to Lakisha, it won't happen unless they get on the same page with their finances. In their application, Lakisha wrote that James doesn't want to discuss their money. She wrote, "It's almost impossible for us to create a plan. Us getting on the same page regarding finances is a deal breaker. Obviously, the stakes are high, so I'm looking forward to helping them out. And to start to figure out what's going on, I asked Lakisha about a recent shopping trip to Target."
8:23 Speaker 01 Went to Target and I was supposed to just drive up and pick something up. He said, like, I'm gonna go in and get some water. And then I said, oh, I'm gonna go in with you. And he's like, are you sure? And I was like, yeah, it's fine. I go in. I told him, I just wanted to go to the dollar section. I went to the dollar section. I also went to the clearance section. I probably spent 50 more dollars than just the drive up.
8:48 Ramit Sethi? What'd you get for 50 bucks?
8:51 Speaker 01 I got an outfit and I got my daughter a sweatshirt. And from the dollar section, I got like a little headband and like wristband things that you could wear like when you're washing your face. So water doesn't get on your hair.
9:07 Ramit Sethi? Okay, all right. James, I know you don't love talking about money. And I know that it's taken a lot of courage for you to show up today and talk about it, which I appreciate. I'm curious about the Target experience. You go to Target with Lakeisha. She's got a list. She says, hey, I'm gonna just go inside and walk around. And you said, really? Just say it for us like you said it.
9:27 Speaker 02 She was like, I'm gonna go in too. I said, do you really need to do that? We have conversations like this all the time, so.
9:35 Ramit Sethi? How often do you say something like that?
9:39 Speaker 02 I'll probably say about two or three times a week.
9:42 Ramit Sethi? Whoa, that's kind of a lot, don't you think?
9:44 Speaker 02 She likes to browse Amazon and things like that.
9:48 Ramit Sethi? So you see her, what does she have, like on her phone or laptop? And you just kind of see her? And then, and then what do you, you just walk up to her and what'd you say?
9:56 Speaker 02 Whatever's Amazon, I'd definitely say something. You don't need to buy that or.
10:01 Ramit Sethi? Okay, just so everybody knows, Lakeisha is smiling right now. She's kind of looking down. I take it that you agree that this is what happens, Lakeisha?
10:10 Speaker 01 Yes, when we were living separately, we both get paid on the same day. When it was payday, we would usually first call each other first thing in the morning. And there sometimes when it's payday, he would reach out to me first. Usually I reach out to him. And so he'll call me and be like, you're too quiet. What are you doing? Are you on Amazon? Because he would just assume that I was up and spending money because we just got paid. And I would say that there is some truth to that assumption. Not every time. Sometimes it's me paying bills or whatever.
10:49 Speaker 01 But yeah, so he attributed my, my silence on payday to me spending money.
10:56 Ramit Sethi? That's interesting. James?
10:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
10:59 Ramit Sethi? When you asked that question, you know, you're too quiet. What are you up to? Or you don't really need that. What is your role in that moment?
11:09 Speaker 02 I guess a, a voice of reason, maybe.
11:12 Ramit Sethi? Oh, okay. And if you're the voice of reason, then who is?
11:15 Speaker 02 I'm not sure. Where, where would you be, Keith?
11:19 Speaker 01 I, I don't know. The voice of being unreasonable? I don't know.
11:26 Ramit Sethi? Why is this such a struggle for you?
11:28 Speaker 01 I'm not sure.
11:29 Ramit Sethi? Let's shift roles. Let's say that I said this to my wife. First of all, I'll never say this to my wife, but let's just say that I did. And I, I'm going around looking at her scrolling on her, on her phone. And I'm like, you don't need all that. Or you're really going to buy that? Why don't you put that away? We don't need that stuff. I'm the voice of reason. Who's my wife in this scenario?
11:51 Speaker 02 I don't know. Um, you got me thinking real hard.
11:53 Ramit Sethi? What are you thinking about?
11:54 Speaker 02 Past things where maybe my, my dad asking me if I needed that.
11:58 Ramit Sethi? Oh, forget the, forget this role thing then. Let's talk about that. What do you mean about your dad? What'd your dad say? Was your dad the voice of reason in your relationship?
12:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, a lot of times, yeah.
12:10 Ramit Sethi? And what did he say to you?
12:12 Speaker 02 James, do you need that? Or what are you doing?
12:16 Ramit Sethi? Okay, love it. How old were you at this time? Take me back.
12:19 Speaker 02 Oh, man. Are we up to my twenties? You know what I mean? My whole life, you know?
12:24 Ramit Sethi? So like five years old, you remember this up to your twenties?
12:29 Speaker 02 Correct, yes.
12:30 Ramit Sethi? Okay, wow. And can I ask you a question? When you were a little boy, go all the way back, five years, six or seven years old. Your dad says this to you. What did you feel?
12:39 Speaker 02 I guess guilty at some, at some point. And at some points, you know, I'm glad he did say something because it stopped me from doing things that I probably shouldn't have done.
12:48 Ramit Sethi? Why shouldn't you have done them? Because at that time you were?
12:52 Speaker 02 A child in broke.
12:54 Ramit Sethi? What else? As you got a little older, you got a paper route, summer job, maybe you weren't as broke, but what were you?
13:03 Speaker 02 Um, learning and irresponsible.
13:07 Ramit Sethi? Right. Irresponsible, unreasonable. So your dad was the voice of reason and you were?
13:16 Speaker 02 Irresponsible.
13:17 Ramit Sethi? Wow. Wow. And so now you have somehow elevated. It's crazy. Your dad was the voice of reason, now you are. And now, what's Lakeisha?
13:31 Speaker 02 Unreasonable.
13:33 Ramit Sethi? And?
13:35 Speaker 02 Do I gotta say it?
13:36 Ramit Sethi? Yes.
13:37 Speaker 02 Irresponsible.
13:38 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Don't worry, nobody's getting in trouble here. I'm not saying that James ever said to Lakeisha, you are irresponsible. But do you all see that I'm trying to help you see the different pieces on the chessboard?
13:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:50 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
13:51 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so if the role is voice of reason, which you yourself gave that term, James, then it stands to reason that the voice of reason is speaking to, teaching, lecturing.
14:06 Speaker 02 I got you. Okay.
14:08 Ramit Sethi? The irresponsible and unreasonable one. Now let's just tie this all up with a bow. Lakeisha, how much debt have you been in in your life as an adult?
14:18 Speaker 01 In the six figures, including student loans.
14:20 Ramit Sethi? Over a hundred thousand dollars of, of debt, correct?
14:23 Speaker 01 Yes.
14:24 Ramit Sethi? Okay. And, and some of that was purely discretionary. You charged stuff up on credit cards. You bought stuff you couldn't afford, correct?
14:30 Speaker 01 Yes.
14:31 Ramit Sethi? Okay. And when you went to Target, you had a list, you already had the stuff pre-bought. You went in there, you dropped 50 bucks on stuff that you probably did not need, correct?
14:41 Speaker 01 Yes.
14:41 Ramit Sethi? And are you still in debt right now?
14:43 Speaker 01 Yes.
14:44 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so do you all see that the roles are not far from what we're talking about? I certainly wouldn't call my partner unreasonable and irresponsible. But I do think the behavior of charging up a bunch of stuff when you don't have the money to pay for it is unreasonable and irresponsible.
15:01 Speaker 01 I agree.
15:02 Ramit Sethi? Did your mom take you to Target when you were a kid?
15:04 Speaker 01 It might have not been Target, but yes, I definitely remember going to the stores with my mom. It was usually my mom and my siblings. Sometimes it was fun because we knew that the chances of us getting something were greater if we went. But if we did not go, we were definitely not getting anything, right? So, so it was always if she was going to the store, we wanted to go. For the most part, I remember it being fun. But there was, there was some stressful moments going to the store too. People don't write checks as much as they used to, but she used to write checks and they would bounce a lot. And so there was a certain sense of anxiety or maybe even embarrassment
15:48 Speaker 01 when it came time to pay, like, oh God, here we go. So for that reason, there were times where I would just opt into it.
15:57 Ramit Sethi? Do you opt not to go because the payment part was too anxiety inducing?
16:03 Speaker 01 Yes.
16:04 Ramit Sethi? Wow. What did you tell your mom when she asked you, do you want to go to the store? What would you say?
16:09 Speaker 01 No, I'm okay. She would sometimes like make a list, right, of all the places she needed to go. And so I would attribute it to like, I don't want to be out all day or I don't want to run all those errands. So I'll just stay back. But sometimes I didn't have a choice. Like, she didn't want to leave us home for too long, so we would have to go.
16:28 Ramit Sethi? You ever hide purchases from anybody?
16:30 Speaker 01 I was sometimes embarrassed with James. There was one point in time where I was buying a lot of stuff on Amazon, to the point where, you know those big plastic containers that they put your packages in to like, transport on the actual truck? There was one point in time where I had so many packages that they just took that plastic package and left it, like, inside the building. And inside that package, there was like, five, seven different packages.
17:04 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Do you have a lot of stuff in your house?
17:08 Speaker 01 Yes.
17:08 Ramit Sethi? She's nodding yes. James, James just smiling quietly. James, what do you say?
17:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, she has a lot of stuff in it, and yes.
17:17 Ramit Sethi? And what kind of stuff?
17:20 Speaker 02 She likes smaller things, I guess you should could say. So there's all type of contraptions and container things.
17:28 Ramit Sethi? Lakeisha, what do you have? What kind of stuff?
17:31 Speaker 01 I have a lot of things. I like color, right? So there's color everywhere. Sometimes when I shop, it's impulsive. So a lot of times I will buy something and then will later be like, I don't need this. Or I'm mad at myself that I even purchased it. Sometimes when I see a need, immediately I'll try to purchase it. So the other day, it was snowing. James went downstairs in the basement to do laundry. When he came back up, there was snow. It was wet all over the floor. And there, I didn't have a rug in the back, like, by the deck. And so I bought a rug, but not only did I buy a rug, I bought like, a boot tray, so that...
18:15 Speaker 01 The water doesn't get everywhere.
18:17 Ramit Sethi? It's kind of striking that the example you just are giving me is a need, a functional need. Would you say that that's supposed to be what you buy? I don't think so.
18:24 Speaker 01 Not mostly what I buy, but it'll be things that I feel like is a need. I'll give you an example. I have a dehydrator.
18:32 Ramit Sethi? Come on, who uses, who buys this? The only people who buy it are on QVC and then they never use it. They're like, oh, I could get a lot of fruit or whatever a dehydrator does. I don't even know what it does, okay? But it's looks cool. All right, so you bought it? How much did it cost?
18:48 Speaker 01 It was less than a hundred.
18:50 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
18:50 Speaker 01 More than fifty.
18:51 Ramit Sethi? What did you get out of buying the dehydrator?
18:56 Speaker 01 Absolutely nothing.
18:57 Ramit Sethi? Nope, that's not true. You got something out of it, otherwise you wouldn't have done it. Think about the moment you decided to buy it. What did you get out of it?
19:05 Speaker 01 Satisfaction.
19:07 Ramit Sethi? That's a pretty bland word. Do you have any other words to describe the feeling? I imagine you were feeling somewhat elated, happy.
19:15 Speaker 01 Not necessarily, because sometimes almost immediately I feel stupid. Honestly, like, why did I get that?
19:23 Ramit Sethi? But what happens before you feel stupid?
19:25 Speaker 01 I think of all the things that I can do with it. I feel accomplished.
19:28 Ramit Sethi? Yes, keep going.
19:30 Speaker 01 I feel accomplished. I feel productive, successful. There was a certain sense of independence I felt.
19:38 Ramit Sethi? Tell me about that.
19:39 Speaker 01 Lately, I've been just on this thing where I want to do everything myself. I'm so used to doing everything myself. So the more I've had to do, the more I want to do. A sense of control, essentially. I want to make all the things myself, even if it's would be easier to just go buy some dehydrated fruit. I can do it myself. So there's a certain sense of freedom and independence that I felt when, when buying those things.
20:14 Ramit Sethi? Can I make an observation?
20:17 Speaker 01 Sure.
20:17 Ramit Sethi? The Target story was really interesting to me because you had a list. Sounds like you had maybe pre-purchased the stuff you just need to pick it up. You go inside, the way you describe it was almost like a very excited young woman, you know, like a little girl even, going into the store. I don't know what I'm gonna get. And you picked up a bunch of stuff. Very excited. Look at the smile on your face right now, right?
20:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:43 Ramit Sethi? And the way then you describe growing up with your mom, there was almost this slot machine of reinforcement and punishment. Sometimes I go to the store and sometimes I get something, which every little kid wants. Sometimes I go and I'm quote punished because I had this embarrassing situation with my mom. It's so embarrassing that sometimes I don't even want to go with her. Fast forward, here you are, an accomplished woman, still recreating some of those same feelings. I buy it, I feel excited, all these identity creations. I'm going to be this person if I buy this thing. And then the slot machine pulls and maybe you lose.
21:25 Ramit Sethi? I feel stupid, I feel embarrassed. All of those feelings remind me very much of how you describe going shopping with your mom. What do you think about that?
21:36 Speaker 01 I've thought a lot about my childhood and connecting it to my experiences with money and financially. But I'd never have considered or made that connection before.
21:50 Ramit Sethi? And how does it feel to hear that connection?
21:52 Speaker 01 I feel like my heart rate probably just went up a tick and I don't know why.
21:58 Ramit Sethi? Wow. Let's take a second and try to figure it out. This is why I love my job. The experiences we have throughout our lives affect us in ways that are sometimes hard for us to even understand ourselves. For Lakeisha, she knows that her childhood impacted the way that she views money, but she never really made that connection to this one specific experience until we just discussed it. Now that she's seeing those connections, we can really get to work on changing her money psychology. We'll be right back after this short break.
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25:21 Ramit Sethi? Welcome back. Let's keep talking to Lakeisha about the connection between her childhood and how she handles money today.
25:28 Speaker 01 I've tried to disconnect myself in a lot of ways with those experiences, but the fact that that connection is there regardless of how much I try to disconnect from it. I think it's just unsettling.
25:42 Ramit Sethi? Does it scare you?
25:45 Speaker 01 A little bit. Yeah. Cause I don't know what else is there that I haven't thought about.
25:51 Ramit Sethi? That's, that's a really good point. So if I'm hearing you, you're saying I've tried through a lot of work to disconnect some of the things that I grew up with from my mom. And it's scary to realize that there's still this invisible connection I didn't possibly even know about. And maybe there are other things.
26:14 Speaker 01 Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that's the scariest part. The maybe there are other things that I don't know.
26:20 Ramit Sethi? Just so I understand, maybe there are other things I'm doing today as a result of what I saw growing up. And I don't even, I'm not even aware of it. Is that what you're saying?
26:32 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:33 Ramit Sethi? Okay. All right. Well, I have good news and bad news. The bad news is.
26:40 Ramit Sethi? Definitely, yes. There are a lot more things you're probably doing today with your money, unconsciously, unknowingly, that we could probably trace back to somewhere in your past. That's the bad news. The good news is that we all do that. Every one of us has some sort of unconscious, unknown thing we do, behave with money, talk about money, feel about money that can be traced back to our past, and we can also change some of those things. When was the last time you had fun talking about money?
27:10 Speaker 01 Never. I don't think it's fun.
27:12 Ramit Sethi? And why is it not fun? What's the not fun part of talking about money?
27:17 Speaker 01 I don't know how.
27:19 Ramit Sethi? Oh, we can fix that.
27:21 Speaker 01 James has to also be open to it. He has gotten so much, even from the time that I submitted the application to yesterday, he has gotten so much better with not avoiding the conversation. So there's definitely progress there.
27:39 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so it's not fun because you don't know how. If you knew how, would it be fun?
27:46 Speaker 01 It would be fun if James would engage willingly in those conversations with me, yes.
27:53 Ramit Sethi? Okay, I love that. And do you think he will?
27:56 Speaker 01 Yes.
27:58 Ramit Sethi? Has he in the past?
27:59 Speaker 01 We've talked about money, but it's come more from a lack of, right? I want to get on the other side of that, an abundance.
28:08 Ramit Sethi? I love that. Those are some of the most fun conversations to have.
28:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:14 Ramit Sethi? You can still have fun if you're in debt. There's no doubt about it. You absolutely can, but it's a different type of fun. It's like, hey, we're in this, we're in this struggle together right now. Let's talk about how we're going to get out of it. And there is something very bonding about that, very. I got to tell you, do you remember that book The Firm? Or the movie The Firm with Tom Cruise? It was like in the 90s. Okay, I saw it when I was like 14 years old. I saw it with my mom. Never, any Asian or Indian person knows this, but I'm going to tell everybody else, never see a movie with a love scene with your mom, okay? I literally wanted to. To die. Anyway, at the beginning of the movie, there's what I consider a very romantic scene.
28:59 Ramit Sethi? Not the way a lot of people think about romance. Let me tell you how I think about romance. They're in this Boston apartment. It's little. He has no money, neither does she. They're eating Chinese takeout. They're struggling. That's their life. He's a student. And then suddenly he gets an offer for a lot of money to be a lawyer, and it changes everything. And to me, I loved that part of the movie because they were working for something together. And then they got it, and it changed everything. And so I see connection and bonding and even romance when you have debt. Of course, I want to help you get to the other side where you've paid that off and you're living in abundance because that's a whole different kind of fun.
29:44 Ramit Sethi? But for me, you can be connected at both parts of the process. We've been able to connect a lot of clues from Lakeisha and James's past that affect their current relationship with money. Now I want to go back to that Target incident where Lakeisha seemed to spontaneously buy fifty dollars worth of items that she didn't really need. And I want to talk to James about his response to that situation, which was to say, "Do you need that?" Listen to how he feels about that now that we've connected his role as the voice of reason to his childhood.
30:20 Speaker 02 Maybe I should handle it a little bit differently. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to be her father or anything like that because I got issues too. But, you know, it's just something. Sometimes, you know, I just try to get her to understand some purchases is unnecessary.
30:37 Ramit Sethi? Does it ever work?
30:38 Speaker 02 Sometimes, sometimes.
30:40 Speaker 01 It does.
30:42 Ramit Sethi? That sound like when you tell a kid, like, "Don't eat all this candy." And like, one out of 10 times, they listen to you. And then I'm like, "Hey, Dad, does it ever work?" And you're like, "God, sometimes."
30:56 Ramit Sethi? You know what I mean?
30:57 Speaker 02 I hear you.
30:58 Ramit Sethi? That's a kid. They don't know what they're doing. They just want candy.
31:02 Speaker 02 Mm.
31:02 Ramit Sethi? Adults, partners, we don't want to have those kind of conversations with them like that, right?
31:09 Speaker 02 Right.
31:10 Ramit Sethi? Okay. You know what I noticed is both of you following in the footsteps of what mom or dad did. Like, it's affecting your financial behavior today. It's pretty interesting, don't you think?
31:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, absolutely.
31:24 Ramit Sethi? Okay. And James, had you made that connection before?
31:27 Speaker 02 Not until like last night and today. My dad was the breadwinner in our house, you know? My mom was a stay-at-home mom. And he was like, work hard and get by. And that's, I think that's how I've been living the last forty-something years of my life. Just trying to get by. And I'm trying to get out of it.
31:48 Ramit Sethi? Work hard and get by. What does that mean?
31:51 Speaker 02 Just doing the bare minimum, I guess. You know what I mean? Just trying to have enough. I'm really trying to get out of that.
31:57 Ramit Sethi? Would that be, for example, you know, if you make a little extra money, you don't save it, you spend it? Is that what you mean?
32:04 Speaker 02 Yeah. Yeah, that too. Yeah.
32:07 Ramit Sethi? Okay. What else?
32:08 Speaker 02 You pay, spend the money on things you need and sometimes some of the things you don't need. And then not saving anything and just trying to make it to the next paycheck, you know?
32:20 Ramit Sethi? And if somebody had asked your dad, for example, what are you gonna do twenty years from now? What would he have said?
32:26 Speaker 02 I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
32:29 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
32:29 Speaker 02 I'm not. Right.
32:31 Ramit Sethi? Right. Is your dad still with us?
32:33 Speaker 02 Yes, he is. Yeah.
32:34 Ramit Sethi? Okay. How's he doing financially speaking?
32:37 Speaker 02 He has some struggles. I mean, he owns his house. But if he would unfortunately leave here, I wouldn't know what would happen to my mom, what would happen to the other things or things like that. I wouldn't be positive that she would be okay.
32:52 Ramit Sethi? Wow. Okay. And because your dad was the breadwinner, did he ever talk to your mom about money? This is what I want to happen if I get hit by a bus, that kind of thing?
33:07 Speaker 02 Of course, you got insurance policies and things of that nature. But other than that, I don't think it's really anything substantial.
33:14 Ramit Sethi? Is your mom equipped? Like, does she understand money?
33:17 Speaker 02 I wouldn't say that she invests anything like that. She might have a little box up in her bedroom or anything like that. But she does know, you know?
33:24 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
33:24 Speaker 02 She need to hold on to something.
33:26 Ramit Sethi? Okay, got it. That's interesting. All right, so your dad was a breadwinner. Mom stayed at home?
33:32 Speaker 02 Yes.
33:33 Ramit Sethi? Okay, gotcha. And when you were a kid, what phrases do you remember the family saying about money? Specifically, your parents?
33:43 Speaker 02 I would probably go by experiences. Like, if you go to the store, you can't have that because we don't have enough money for that. Times when bills were due, saying no to certain things because we didn't have it, you know? Don't get me wrong, we always had a roof over our head and all of that. But as far as anything extra or anything like that, no.
34:04 Ramit Sethi? Would you say you grew up middle class, lower middle class?
34:08 Speaker 02 I would say probably lower to middle. I would say somewhere in between there, yeah.
34:12 Ramit Sethi? Okay. You saw your dad working. Do you ever see your parents talking about money when you grew up?
34:19 Speaker 02 When times got hard, yeah, they would talk about it. About making cuts, things like that. Being more disciplined about money around this time, around Christmas, you know? It's not going to be much happening, you know? I remember those conversations. But as far as anything else, you know, like I said, my dad was a breadwinner. So the money began and stopped with him, you know?
34:40 Ramit Sethi? What did your dad teach you about money?
34:42 Speaker 02 Work hard. There's a lot of things that, growing up, and some of the mistakes he might have made with credit and things like that, he would try to warn me of those traps. But he always, you know, would tell me, you know, get a job, work, you know what I mean?
34:55 Ramit Sethi? That sounds like a good lesson.
34:57 Speaker 01 Lucky you that you got that heads up.
34:59 Ramit Sethi? So that's like teaching you a work ethic. Work hard. Sounds like he worked hard.
35:05 Speaker 02 He did.
35:06 Ramit Sethi? You'd seem go off to work, come home from work, okay? What did he do, by the way?
35:10 Speaker 02 He was in construction. He was an ironworker. And then he became a pastor.
35:15 Ramit Sethi? Wow. That's interesting. Big pay cut?
35:20 Speaker 02 Yes. Yes, that was, that was definitely an experience.
35:25 Ramit Sethi? And how did that affect the family?
35:27 Speaker 02 He worked for the city when he was working. So we're doing well, you know what I mean? We were, we probably was middle class at that point. And then when he went into ministry full time, it definitely was a fall off. It was, and so I had to be about 16 when that happened.
35:42 Ramit Sethi? So interesting you say that because it's very common that when I talk to people and they had a big change in their family socioeconomically. It's very common for some cosmic reason, I don't know why, that it happens when the kids are around 14 to 18. Something hap- yes, very common. And usually it's the dad, you know, especially back in the day, dads were often primary breadwinners. And they will get laid off or their business will go out of business. Or in your case, your dad took a big pay cut. And at that age, 16 year olds are very smart. They know what's going on. They don't understand the nuts and bolts of money,
36:25 Ramit Sethi? but they know that my family just changed.
36:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:29 Ramit Sethi? How did that affect you going forward? You're 16, 17, 18. What happens to you?
36:36 Speaker 02 I guess that kind of shaped how I felt about finances and things of that nature, about having to struggle, having to fight for certain things, you know? Because, I mean, we were, we were struggling at one point. It was four of us living, four children. It was a struggle at some points. So I guess I do try to hold on to the money as much as I can. Try to have at least something in my bank account. And that's been kind of a struggle lately as well. But other than that, I think that just shaped me. And I think that kind of gave me to the point where I am now that I want to do something more than what I have been doing. I don't want my daughter and now our children to be in a place, like you said, at 16, it'd be a big drop off and we have nothing saved, you know what I mean?
37:20 Speaker 02 And these, these jobs are finicky, you know what I mean? They love us one day and then the next day they would lay us off.
37:27 Ramit Sethi? How old is your daughter?
37:28 Speaker 02 11.
37:29 Ramit Sethi? It's pretty interesting. Five years from now, how old is she gonna be?
37:34 Speaker 02 Sixteen.
37:36 Ramit Sethi? I don't know why, but there is something magic about that age range.
37:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:40 Ramit Sethi? Looking back now as a forty-five-year-old man, a father, when you zoom out, what do you make of that, your journey with your family, once you left the house, as it relates to money?
37:52 Speaker 02 Even though it was a struggle, I survived.
37:54 Ramit Sethi? That's right. What else?
37:56 Speaker 02 I could have did better. If I listened to some lessons, probably could be at a better place right now.
38:02 Ramit Sethi? That's interesting. Maybe like Lakeisha could do better if she listened to some lessons from you? You think maybe that comes out a little bit?
38:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:11 Ramit Sethi? Here's an unusual question. When you look back at the journey, look at the five-year-old James, seven-year-old, ten-year-old, as it relates to money and the journey you went on, what do you feel when you see that journey? What do you feel?
38:26 Speaker 02 I don't know. At that age, I probably feel joy because I didn't know anything.
38:31 Ramit Sethi? How about now, as a forty-five-year-old, looking back on that journey, what do you feel?
38:35 Speaker 02 I don't know.
38:36 Ramit Sethi? You talk about your feelings a lot?
38:38 Speaker 02 Not really.
38:39 Ramit Sethi? Okay. I get it. I get it. You ever gone to therapy?
38:45 Speaker 02 Yes, I just started therapy recently.
38:47 Ramit Sethi? Oh, good. What caused you to start?
38:50 Speaker 02 Lakeisha, I have some PTSD with some past relationships. And she, I don't wanna mess it up, so I started therapy.
39:00 Ramit Sethi? That's cool. Reason I ask is, men in general, we're not really taught to talk about our feelings.
39:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:08 Ramit Sethi? Probably there's some cultural elements as well. I know for me, Indian people are definitely not talking about our feelings. We're not going to therapy. You don't see an Indian person in therapy, I'm gonna tell you that right now. There's no Asians and there's no Indians in therapy. This generation, yes, but nobody older.
39:25 Speaker 02 No, right, exactly.
39:26 Ramit Sethi? Is that the same?
39:27 Speaker 02 Absolutely it is.
39:29 Ramit Sethi? Really? Okay.
39:30 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
39:31 Ramit Sethi? Okay, that's, well, I gotta say, I love, I love breaking the construct.
39:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:37 Ramit Sethi? Right. Okay, there's no Indian people in therapy. Well, guess what? I'm there.
39:40 Speaker 02 Exactly.
39:42 Ramit Sethi? That's cool. Lakeisha, what do you feel as? You hear James describe his upbringing.
39:48 Speaker 01 It makes sense.
39:49 Ramit Sethi? Yes, it do.
39:50 Speaker 01 I don't know if I'm supposed to feel this way, but I feel empathy for him. To me, it's more motivating for us to develop solutions and, you know, have this conversation and continue on the path that we started to get on the other side.
40:08 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, I like that.
40:09 Speaker 01 Our past.
40:10 Ramit Sethi? I love that. I think sometimes when we're trying to understand our partner or anybody, to be able to really hear how they grew up and, I mean, it's very specific things like, oh, my gosh, your dad took a major pay cut when you were 16. That's gotta have been tough. And, oh, my gosh, these were the phrases you heard around the house. Like, whoa, that that really shared, tells me a lot. I'll tell you what I feel. I feel inspired because, James, it sounds like your dad taught you to work hard, which I love. I love a parent teaching their kids a good work ethic. I love it. I feel inspired because it sounds like there was a lot of love in the family just from the brief description you shared. And I feel sad.
40:55 Ramit Sethi? I feel sad that a lot of the messages you got about money were negative and that it actually got harder. In fact, you said something that that really stuck with me, which was, my dad taught me to work hard. And what was the second part of that?
41:11 Speaker 02 Just get by, yes.
41:13 Ramit Sethi? And that's a powerful lesson, good or bad. And I think the idea that you were taught to just get by, probably over and over, kind of sticks with you. The same way we heard how Lakeisha's lesson from her mom about shopping in the slot machine, that sticks with you too. So, you know, the bad news is that stuff sticks with us. The good news is lots of other people grew up similarly, and we could change it if we want to.
41:42 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
41:43 Ramit Sethi? All right. What are y'all noticing about this right now? This conversation? How are we feeling?
41:48 Speaker 02 I kind of feel relieved because it's a lot of things that, just like my therapy sessions, there's a lot of things just talking about certain things. It comes out. And so it's a lot of things I'm relieved about right now.
42:00 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, I love that. I like watching you kind of go back in time and think about something that happened. I can almost see it in your face.
42:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:09 Ramit Sethi? I can see you connecting with where you came from. That's pretty cool.
42:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:14 Ramit Sethi? Lakeisha, what about you? How are you feeling?
42:16 Speaker 01 Feeling good.
42:18 Ramit Sethi? You sound a little nervous. You sound like I sounded, I don't know what the roller coasters are at the California State Fair, but there's one that it's not that scary, but it is to me. And it's right when you go up and I'm like, okay, okay. And then you get to the top and I'm like, just kill me right now. I don't want to be alive anymore. That's how you sound like. You just saw what's about to come.
42:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, and that's a great synopsis of how I feel because I'm thinking to myself, you just finished talking about James and how he came up and his background and family. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, God, I'm next.
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46:02 Ramit Sethi? Now, let's get back to our conversation.
46:04 Speaker 01 The irony of what you were saying with the slot machine.
46:08 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
46:08 Speaker 01 That was, and you don't know it, but that was triggering for me.
46:13 Ramit Sethi? What? Why? Who was a gambler in your family?
46:15 Speaker 01 My mom.
46:17 Ramit Sethi? Really? So, I just made that metaphor up, but
46:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, no.
46:23 Ramit Sethi? Your mom was actually a gambler?
46:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, she was addicted to it, yeah.
46:27 Ramit Sethi? Oh my gosh, this actually makes so much sense. So, she would take money, she would gamble. Would she lose a lot of money?
46:35 Speaker 01 Oh yeah. I, I never knew the amounts, like she would never share that part, but yes.
46:41 Ramit Sethi? How did you know when she had lost money?
46:44 Speaker 01 It would show up in different ways. So, there would be times where she didn't come home. So she would stay at the casino all night long. And so, we knew from her disposition when she came home, if she lost or, I wouldn't say we would know if she won. It wasn't like there was just excitement, but we could sometimes tell how big of a loss it was. She was just like exhausted, beaten, defeated. And yeah, it was just obvious.
47:17 Ramit Sethi? And then what would happen?
47:18 Speaker 01 When we were younger, we were just so happy that she was home after being worried about where she was all night, that it didn't matter. So what? You lost, you're here. So we would just wanna be around her. But I think, I think the older we got, the more it, almost frustrating too, that it got where it was just, we kinda knew to leave her alone. Um, and not that she would be angry or lash out or anything like that, but, I mean, we knew that she probably wasn't in the best of moves. And then too, it was just more so like, let her rest, mentally recover from whatever just happened. But we never knew the extent of what actually happened.
48:00 Ramit Sethi? How many siblings in your family?
48:02 Speaker 01 There was three of us.
48:03 Ramit Sethi? Your two siblings, how are they with money?
48:06 Speaker 01 Not great.
48:08 Ramit Sethi? Three siblings, all three not great with money. What do you think that that says?
48:12 Speaker 01 I hate to default to that because I do think at a certain point in time and age, even if you weren't taught it as a child or in high school, we can learn things. So I, I don't want to default to that. Um, I feel like in a lot of ways, that's an easy way out, but I can't ignore it either. The things we experienced, the things we saw growing up. Money was disposable. We knew that it was always coming in. We didn't know from where, but it was always coming and it was always going.
48:44 Ramit Sethi? Where was it always coming in from? What did your mom do for a living?
48:47 Speaker 01 My mom was a single mom. It varied. Mom, I made mention to writing bad checks and other things. So she actually went to jail for some time for financial crimes. That's another reason why I guess I was feeling those feelings because when you made mention to that age, right, 14 to 16, I was in eighth grade, um, when that happened. And she was gone until my sophomore year. So she was gone a couple of years.
49:15 Ramit Sethi? What was the story in the family? Mom went to jail? Did you all say that?
49:22 Speaker 01 Yeah. I think the story everybody told either to themselves or to each other was, was for writing bad checks. I didn't know this until I was later in life. That's something that had, everybody knew and kind of was like a thing, even like before I was born. I didn't know.
49:39 Ramit Sethi? Oh, she was known for writing bad checks?
49:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
49:43 Ramit Sethi? Okay, fine. So she was known for writing bad checks for like a long time, maybe decades. And then she, what, she got caught?
49:50 Speaker 01 It caught up to her. Yeah. And so when that happened, I was angry with her because it was avoidable. Like you didn't have to do this. Also, I didn't know how she was funding the lifestyle that we had, but there was like designer clothes and like all of those things. I didn't know how. I much rather would have had my mom as opposed to anything she ever purchased. But that was just, you know, the reality of it at that time.
50:22 Ramit Sethi? It's tough to hear. It's gotta be a hundred times tougher to have lived it. So I'm sorry you went through that.
50:28 Speaker 01 Thank you.
50:30 Ramit Sethi? What did she say when she came back her sophomore year?
50:33 Speaker 01 She apologized. She definitely said, I'm sorry.
50:36 Ramit Sethi? And how did you take that?
50:37 Speaker 01 I accepted it. The whole time she was gone, I never wrote her though. I was adamant about that. I was angry.
50:43 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
50:44 Speaker 01 Um, she wrote me lots of letters, but I refused to write her. I wanted her to feel my anger. I wanted her to feel what she did. The consequence of making that decision is a separation for me and I wanted her to feel it.
51:00 Ramit Sethi? Wow. That's very mature for a eighth grader, like extremely. And then she came back, she apologized and you accepted the apology.
51:12 Speaker 01 I did.
51:13 Ramit Sethi? I feel like I could learn a lot from you. Cause if somebody does something wrong, like really wrong to me, I'm not accepting their apology. I'm like, see you in hell. You know, and here you are in 10th grade, you're like, okay, I accept.
51:25 Speaker 01 I wanted to believe that it was a mistake and she realized it was a mistake and that it was a mistake that she would not make again.
51:34 Ramit Sethi? Is she still with us?
51:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
51:37 Ramit Sethi? Okay. And how's she doing financially?
51:39 Speaker 01 She's doing okay. And to my knowledge, there has not been any instances of anything like this. But there was one time, um, and I have to share this because this did something to me. I feel like at a different level. When I was in college, this one bank used to send you your checks back. After, you know, they cleared or whatever. So freshman year, I'm on campus, I'm away. And I will never forget, I got a check and it was in her handwriting, but it was from my account and it was to Tiffany's. And it said on the memo line, mom's birthday gift. And it was like for 200 and something dollars.
52:23 Speaker 01 Mind you, this is freshman year of college. So we've been through all of that before. And so I think at that moment, I just felt like I, I cannot trust her. Period. I can't trust her. I won't trust her. Trust when it comes to just reliability and believing in somebody and that they're going to do what's right and have your best interests at heart, I just.
52:49 Ramit Sethi? That's, that's tough. Sounds like you made the right decision for you. I respect that. What connections do you see between the modeling that your mom provided for you with money? And the way that you behave with money today?
53:05 Speaker 01 I don't value it. It's disposable. I'm not and have not been future oriented as it relates to money. My mom is in her 60s now and I don't know if she even has anything saved for retirement or what that looks like.
53:22 Ramit Sethi? What else?
53:22 Speaker 01 Definitely living in the now and just thinking about today.
53:27 Ramit Sethi? You said that your mom, you finally concluded freshman year, was not trustworthy with money. Are you Lakeisha trustworthy with money?
53:35 Speaker 01 I'm trustworthy with other people's stuff and things and money more so than mine.
53:40 Ramit Sethi? Why do you treat other people's money with more respect than your own?
53:43 Speaker 01 I don't know. For the longest, I felt like I'm doing this thing to me, right? So like, I'm spending my money. It's only going to affect me, right? And of course, obviously making sure and considering that my, my daughters always had what they needed. But I just felt like it's only affecting me. So there was nobody else to hold me accountable or that I had to answer to. If I took one of my checks in and decided to blow it, I had nobody to answer. Who's gonna check me? Like, nobody. Like, nobody knows because it's mine. It's damaging.
54:24 Ramit Sethi? Yes.
54:24 Speaker 01 At some moments in time, I did not care.
54:28 Ramit Sethi? Do you know why?
54:30 Speaker 01 No, I don't.
54:31 Ramit Sethi? You ever thought about it? Why do I continually get in these financial situations? Why do I make these choices? Why do I end up here? What have you concluded?
54:42 Speaker 01 Historically, I feel like I have not thought about the future because the future seems so far away and I wanted to enjoy my money now. However, I will say the older I get, like now. Even though the future is, does still seem far away, I am terrified that it's going to be here before I know it and I'm not going to have anything to show for it. I think I always thought that I had time to figure it out.
55:09 Ramit Sethi? I, I do agree that most of us kick the can down the road for money, for flossing, for, you know, having a healthy relationship with our parents. I agree. That's very common. I don't think that's the crux of this. We'll get to the crux of Lakisha's relationship with money right after this quick pause to support our sponsors. I recently got a comment on my podcast asking if I really use the products that I say I do. And the answer is yes. If I tell you that I personally use and pay for a product or service, I do. That's why in so many Delete Me ads that I have hosted on this podcast, I tell you I pay for this myself.
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56:36 Ramit Sethi? That's joindelete.me/ramit, code RAMIT for 20% off. Welcome back. I want to get to the bottom of Lakisha's relationship with money. And we can't do that without talking about a pivotal moment in her financial life. Her bankruptcy. You've been bankrupt, correct?
56:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:59 Ramit Sethi? Once?
57:00 Speaker 01 No, I actually filed twice, but the first time it was dismissed.
57:06 Ramit Sethi? That's um, out of the ordinary. So there's gotta be something besides like, oh, I thought there would be time later. What might it be? I'll give you a hint. You said something really interesting. You said, there's nobody to check me. I'm just doing it on my own. If I wanted to spend all my money, I spend it. Do you think I would ever say, there's nobody to check me?
57:30 Speaker 01 No.
57:31 Ramit Sethi? Why?
57:31 Speaker 01 I don't think that you would ever say that because you don't need anybody to hold you accountable.
57:38 Ramit Sethi? Most of the time, that's true.
57:40 Speaker 01 James can attest to this. Very early on in discussing finances, I have literally asked for accountability. I feel like I need it.
57:52 Ramit Sethi? Is he the right person to ask for accountability? Isn't James in a bunch of debt?
57:57 Speaker 01 No, he's not. And then it too, I feel silly even saying that because I feel like you're a grown woman. Like, why, why do you need somebody to hold you accountable for your own stuff?
58:07 Ramit Sethi? Everybody needs some accountability in some part of life. I have a trainer. They hold me accountable. They push me further than I would push myself and I pay them. I don't feel any, I don't feel shame or embarrassment about it. No problem. You ever go to the grocery store and buy one of those salads that are pre-made? You're just like, hey, I'm gonna buy a little bit of convenience. That's okay. Okay, so I don't feel any shame about it as long as I can afford it. But accountability comes in lots of forms. I probably don't think James is the right person to hold you accountable in the majority, but I do think that the two of you working together can go pretty far. We're getting close now. You said, there's nobody to hold me accountable, nobody to look over my shoulder, nobody to check me.
58:51 Ramit Sethi? What is the implication there? That if I don't have somebody to do that, I am what?
58:56 Speaker 01 I'm not owned.
58:58 Ramit Sethi? Yes, you are on your own, which for you is really scary, right?
59:02 Speaker 01 It is.
59:03 Ramit Sethi? Incredibly scary, and you are irrational and unreasonable. You have not been married before, correct?
59:11 Speaker 01 No.
59:12 Ramit Sethi? So you've been doing this on your own, you have, uh, how many kids?
59:16 Speaker 01 Two.
59:17 Ramit Sethi? Two kids, oldest is nineteen. There's something, this belief that if I don't have something external, then I am...
59:27 Speaker 01 Irresponsible. At one point, I even asked my daughter, I thought it would be a good learning experience for her. I, I basically was an open book financially with her. And showed her how much I make, what goes where, what debt was, everything. I said, "This is my budget, like, I need your help in making sure that we stick to this." We stick to this, right? Cause it's a group effort. I, I've been wanting somebody and needing, feeling like I need somebody to do this with forever. To the point where I've even resorted towards, you know, soliciting my daughter to help. It scared, messed out of her.
1:00:12 Speaker 01 So she got really responsible financially, but that was very fleeing. Now, it, she's repeating some of these habits that I had.
1:00:20 Ramit Sethi? Your daughter is repeating the habits that you have, and you are repeating the habits that who had?
1:00:27 Speaker 01 My mom.
1:00:28 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, story as old as time.
1:00:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:00:31 Ramit Sethi? One of the reasons that I was so excited to talk to you is that I love to be able to see a couple chart their own path. This is our rich life. Of course, we have to acknowledge how we grew up, we have to honor our past. We can take the best of it, and we get to choose what is the next chapter of our life, always knowing that if we have children, as the two of you do, we can help change the trajectory of our family legacy. But that takes some extreme agency. The ability to feel like, wow, we have control, we can change stuff.
1:01:12 Ramit Sethi? And an extreme long-term view, which I think both of you will admit you don't have.
1:01:19 Speaker 01 No.
1:01:20 Ramit Sethi? Well, the good news is it can be done. What I hear from you, Laquisha, is a feeling that you want somebody to help you, which is totally reasonable. You've been raising kids solo, doing a lot solo for a long time. That is perfectly reasonable to me. I get it. But I also noticed that you have not done the work yourself. Like, for example, have you read my book?
1:01:46 Speaker 01 Yes, I'm more than halfway through it.
1:01:49 Ramit Sethi? It's only been out for 15 years, so...
1:01:51 Speaker 01 Let me tell you why I have not gone through it. I'm a very analytical, black and white, like, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot person. And so, as I'm reading, right, I will stop when you say, okay, do this in the next week. Until I do that thing, I can't move on to the next chapter. I just can't.
1:02:10 Ramit Sethi? Did that sound like a good answer to you in your head? Because it sure didn't sound good out loud.
1:02:14 Speaker 01 No, no, I just needed you to know that I'm waiting to do this step before I move on.
1:02:21 Ramit Sethi? All right. Do you see the pattern here? It's not about the book. I'm sure you will finish the book at some point. What pattern are you exhibiting right now?
1:02:30 Speaker 01 Inconsistency.
1:02:31 Ramit Sethi? Yes, that's true.
1:02:32 Speaker 01 Not completing things.
1:02:35 Ramit Sethi? No follow-through?
1:02:36 Speaker 01 And just, I start things that I don't finish.
1:02:41 Ramit Sethi? No follow-through, which is really hard, because in life, ultimately, that's what matters. Everyone can start a bunch of stuff, but fall through as well. And then also telling stories about justifying why. And there's a story you're telling yourself, which you feel very self-satisfied telling the story. Oh, here's the reason. Oh, will he buy it? I don't know. And to me, all of this comes down to a theme. Can I get away with it?
1:03:12 Ramit Sethi? Can I get away with it? Does that sound familiar at all to you?
1:03:15 Speaker 01 That absolutely does.
1:03:17 Ramit Sethi? Can I get away with moving money here, moving money there, declaring bankruptcy, holding off on this claw or nothing? Can I get away with it?
1:03:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:28 Ramit Sethi? Can I get away with not finishing the book? But I actually did chapter four, but then I skipped to six, but then I'm gonna do five later. When I tell Ramit, I definitely am gonna tell him that I'm a black and white person. Can I get away with it? Does this sound real? When we go to Target, I got my list. It's all ready. The bags are in the trunk. Can I go in and check out and get $50 of stuff? Which, by the way, brings me back to my mom because she walked up to the counter and she tried to charge it, not knowing if the check would go through or not. Mom saying, can I get away with it?
1:04:03 Ramit Sethi? Now, one last question for you. Have you ever seen your daughter try to get away with it?
1:04:09 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:04:10 Ramit Sethi? Okay. What do you think of this?
1:04:11 Speaker 01 That's insane. You are right. I don't understand why I have not gotten here sooner. I want to fire my therapist.
1:04:19 Ramit Sethi? Fire them?
1:04:20 Speaker 01 I want to.
1:04:21 Ramit Sethi? What do you mean, want to? What's the problem? Send an email. Done.
1:04:26 Speaker 01 I've been wanting, yeah. That's a whole nother story.
1:04:28 Ramit Sethi? I have a new service called NAS, No as a Service. And anyone who has a problem saying no, in this case, firing somebody, come to me. Not a problem. I can handle that in 15 seconds. I'll do it while I'm eating chips and salsa. Anyway, what else do you notice about this? Can I get away with it? You see it in other parts of life?
1:04:48 Speaker 01 It is the sad motto of my life. Can I get away with it? Not only as it relates to my children, but even academically, right? College, high school. Can I get away with getting an A on this test, but not doing homework? On my tombstone, it should read, she got away with it.
1:05:08 Ramit Sethi? Do you normally get away with it?
1:05:10 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:05:11 Ramit Sethi? It's interesting, right? Because your mom got away with check writing for 15-plus years. Then she went to jail. And then she continued with the financial fraud afterwards. She kinda, aside from the two years, she kinda got away with it, right?
1:05:31 Speaker 01 She did, she did.
1:05:34 Ramit Sethi? And so you pick up on that consciously or unconsciously. It's like, oh, I can like do all this stuff, get away with it. You're probably pretty smart in school, so you get good grades. Does it hit you in college? Does it get harder then?
1:05:48 Speaker 01 No.
1:05:50 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so you got away with that and you declared bankruptcy, got away with that. But here you are today, got debt, no savings. And frankly, you're still quote getting away with it.
1:06:03 Speaker 01 I want you to tell me it's possible. There was some app calculator and I've plugged in some numbers and I sent it to James and I said, look, it's possible if we start today, like we could have this much in 25 years. Let's say by the time I'm 65, 67. Like we can start today. So I want you to confirm that what I hope and dream for us and for our children is possible.
1:06:37 Ramit Sethi? You want me to confirm a calculation for you? I feel like Google can do that or calculators can do that. You don't want somebody to check you? See, here's why I'm asking. Because I often find a lot of people, they infantilize themselves. They kind of ask their partner, like, I want you to like, make sure I'm not overspending too much. And they basically put themselves in this subservient financial position. It drives me crazy because we're all adults here. I'll not allow one person to put themselves in that role. And then guess what? Guess what role the other person is put into? The voice of reason. Basically, the parent-child dynamic. I hate it. Is that what's happening here?
1:07:17 Speaker 01 Sometimes. But here's the thing I don't understand. If you did not, from a psychological standpoint, if you did not get that thing, maybe that you needed as a child, did not make sense that you would want that or desire that, or maybe even need that to a certain extent as an adult?
1:07:38 Ramit Sethi? Of course, what you are doing might make perfect sense. That's where a good therapist can work with you and help you understand, what unmet needs do I have? I'm sure there are some, just from the stories you told me about your upbringing. How am I manifesting those? Right? And then, how do I meet those needs that are legitimate in a more healthy way? So, the target example is such an interesting dynamic, because notice the roles that you each put yourselves willingly into, but you never stop to think about what happened. You get to the store. I just love this slice of life, because it's like 20 minutes, but it tells me everything. You get to the store. You've already done the pre-work of ordering ahead,
1:08:21 Ramit Sethi? which is, logistically, you need some chops for that. You get there. James goes, "I'm going inside for a second." You go, "Let me come too. I'm gonna walk around." And he instantly takes on the role of voice of reason. "Are you sure you need to?" And you take on the role of, "Lakisha, what?"
1:08:40 Speaker 01 I felt like a child. I looked like a child. I literally went from one section to the other, like a child would, from toys to games. Like, I did that.
1:08:49 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so the kid walks around, and like you said, irresponsible? Yes, as it relates to money, because we're gonna look at your CSP, and it probably was irresponsible, financially speaking, to go in there. But you go in there, already knowing that you got your bags in the trunk. And then, what's that phrase going unconsciously through your head?
1:09:07 Speaker 01 Can I get away with it?
1:09:09 Ramit Sethi? Can I get away with it? Can I get away with it, considering that I'm in debt? Considering that I don't have any savings? Considering that I already have everything I need, because it's in the trunk already? Can I get away with it? So when I show these examples, I don't share these to berate you. Not at all. I hope you can hear that in my voice.
1:09:27 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:09:29 Ramit Sethi? I'm here like as your detective. I'm trying to knock on doors and figure out what's going on here and start to make some connections. Again, my hope is that you hear this, you receive it and you go, oh my gosh. Like I never made that connection between my mom saying, can I get away with it? Me saying, can I get away with it in different parts of life? And perhaps even my daughter saying, can I get away with it? James, same for you with your dad. You know, work hard, but just get by.
1:09:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:09:59 Ramit Sethi? It shows up everywhere. Shows up in your CSP, which I would like to take a look at now. What was it like creating this CSP together?
1:10:07 Speaker 02 It was okay. It was definitely shocking to see some of those numbers on there. Just to see everything just planned out that way. It really shows you got a lot of work to do.
1:10:17 Ramit Sethi? What else did it show you?
1:10:19 Speaker 02 That if we do get it together, it's possible that we could get out of this mess that we're in.
1:10:25 Ramit Sethi? I like that. I like that.
1:10:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:10:27 Ramit Sethi? I noticed, James, that you're kind of future oriented. Like when I asked you, what'd you notice about these numbers? You say, we could hopefully get out of it, which I think is great, very positive. But you know, it's interesting that you didn't say, wow, it made me reflect on what decisions I made to get into this situation.
1:10:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's, that's true.
1:10:47 Ramit Sethi? Do you all see what I'm trying to do with you here? Like the reason we haven't looked at the numbers yet at all is we can't go forward unless we understand our past.
1:10:55 Speaker 02 Okay, I know I'm jacked up. I know I'd have made some decisions that I know I shouldn't have made.
1:11:01 Ramit Sethi? Do you know why you made those decisions?
1:11:03 Speaker 02 I would say out of necessity. For example, if I needed a car, did I necessarily have to go get a car with payments that were high? I could have made a different choice as far as that is concerned. And that has been consistent throughout my adult life. Getting things that I probably know I can't afford, but I would convince myself this is out of necessity.
1:11:27 Ramit Sethi? Do you know why you justify yourself?
1:11:31 Speaker 02 Cause I really want it, you know?
1:11:34 Ramit Sethi? That's actually a pretty good answer.
1:11:39 Ramit Sethi? One thing that I think about and talk about a lot that I don't hear either of you think about or talk about a lot is my own future. I deserve to have an even better future than I'm having today. Specifically, I don't just mean like words like, oh, let's have a good life. No, I mean, like, I'm putting money every month towards investments because I deserve it. I deserve to live a awesome life, and I'm going to. I understand my numbers. I know exactly how much it's going to turn into. I know when, and I set it up so that it's going to happen. It is a guarantee. I don't hear either of you talking like that. What's the difference?
1:12:21 Speaker 02 Your statement is way more optimistic than the way we're, we have to speak it, you know? And I think we just get used to the way we're living.
1:12:30 Ramit Sethi? Okay, what else?
1:12:32 Speaker 02 I did say I work hard, but me working hard and working to, as I was 18 years old, has not given me anything. You know what I mean?
1:12:42 Ramit Sethi? Do you know why?
1:12:43 Speaker 02 Because I have not committed myself to investing in the right things I need to invest in.
1:12:49 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, I don't think you prioritize your future self. You prioritize what you wanted at the time, which is okay, if you can afford it, but, you know, you probably didn't take the time to read about compound interest, personal finance, that kind of thing, right?
1:13:05 Speaker 02 Correct.
1:13:06 Ramit Sethi? All right. That's paying yourself first. That's giving yourself a future that's bigger than today. Lakeisha, what about you?
1:13:12 Speaker 01 Just going back to the question about the CSP and us filling it out together. One thing James said that kind of stuck out to me from our conversation during that time was your line item that says like guilt-free spending. He said, like, that's, there's no such thing, basically, is guilt-free spending. So.
1:13:34 Speaker 01 I didn't say it to him then, but I kinda thought to myself in my head, maybe he does feel a certain sense of guilt when spending.
1:13:44 Ramit Sethi? But what about you, Lakeisha? What about the fact that you have no savings, investments? You're almost 40 years old.
1:13:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is exactly what you said it was. I have not considered my future self at all. I've had jobs where I had a 401k or something, and I have cashed those out. I have not rolled them over into anything. And so I have set my future self-quell for failure.
1:14:11 Ramit Sethi? That's correct. You've robbed them. That's the word, robbed. Literally taken money from them.
1:14:17 Speaker 01 Yep.
1:14:18 Ramit Sethi? So I can't make you change. You have a lifetime of attitudes and behaviors when it comes to money that would need to change. It's a very complex situation we have here. I do want to look at the numbers because they tell a lot. I'm glad you created this together. We're gonna take a look at it now. Lakeisha, let's have you read off the word in bold, and then each person's number next to it. I'll do the first one just as an example. Assets, James, zero. Lakeisha, 21,000.
1:14:47 Speaker 01 Investments, zero, zero, zero. Savings, zero, zero, zero. Debt, 25,846. For James, Lakeisha, 165,000.
1:15:01 Ramit Sethi? Total net worth for James is how much?
1:15:05 Speaker 01 Negative 25,846.
1:15:08 Ramit Sethi? Uh huh, and how about for you?
1:15:10 Speaker 01 Negative 144,000.
1:15:12 Ramit Sethi? All right. Let's start here. So what do y'all notice about these numbers?
1:15:18 Speaker 01 Vastly different.
1:15:20 Speaker 02 That vastly different, yes.
1:15:22 Ramit Sethi? So James, you have about $26,000 of debt. Where, what's that from?
1:15:26 Speaker 02 I had a repossessed car, credit cards, and some loan. I'm scared to do things, so I guess that's why I didn't accumulate a lot.
1:15:34 Ramit Sethi? Scared to do things means I'm scared to save money? I'm scared to invest? Is that what you mean?
1:15:39 Speaker 02 Yes, I am. I have a business degree, so. I've learned a lot of things about investment and things of that nature. I guess I'm just afraid to do something about it.
1:15:50 Ramit Sethi? I can empathize with that. And it's clear that this fear is not serving you. It's literally costing you hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, this fear. So I will say the good news is that I'm so glad you are tackling it with the help of a therapist and hopefully maybe some other folks. It's not a normal fear like, oh, I'm scared of a spider. I don't want to be in a room with a spider. This is causing like severe lifestyle, financial issues, probably more than that. All right. Let's talk Lakeisha. Lakeisha, you have $21,000 in assets. What is that, car?
1:16:25 Ramit Sethi? Okay. What kind of car?
1:16:26 Speaker 01 It's an SUV.
1:16:27 Ramit Sethi? A what? You got an Infiniti SUV?
1:16:31 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:16:33 Ramit Sethi? Hold on. Should we just do the thing where you proceed to tell me how you need it for the kids? Go ahead. Let's just run that story. Go ahead. I'll wait.
1:16:40 Speaker 01 My car was paid off. I had a Volkswagen Jetta paid off since the end of last year. My daughter needed a car in college. I let her buy my Jetta from me. And so I needed a car. Did it have to be an Infiniti SUV? No.
1:17:02 Ramit Sethi? And how much did this Infiniti SUV cost you?
1:17:04 Speaker 01 My car note is $820 a month.
1:17:08 Ramit Sethi? Okay. And how many months?
1:17:11 Speaker 01 60 months.
1:17:12 Ramit Sethi? Okay. How much you pay for gas every month?
1:17:14 Speaker 01 $300. I work from home. There is not a lot of driving.
1:17:19 Ramit Sethi? All right, fine. Let's continue moving. So we're going to get to, first, let's go over the numbers. Then we're going to talk about what it means. What do you see, Lakeisha, already in your decision to buy an Infiniti? By the way, what's the total price of this Infiniti?
1:17:32 Speaker 01 It was like 32, 33,000.
1:17:34 Ramit Sethi? It's a used one?
1:17:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:17:37 Ramit Sethi? Okay. I mean. Could be worse. Don't take this as me complimenting you for getting an Infiniti SUV, but we can, we can talk about it. No savings and no investments. How come?
1:17:49 Speaker 01 I don't have a good reason.
1:17:50 Speaker 02 I don't know. It's heartbreaking. I tell you that because I'll be 45 in a few weeks, you know? I wish I did have savings. I just didn't have a future, James, in, in my view.
1:18:03 Ramit Sethi? When you look at zero savings and zero investments, do you both feel anything about that?
1:18:09 Speaker 02 I don't feel good.
1:18:10 Ramit Sethi? Yes. And Lakeisha?
1:18:12 Speaker 01 Fear. If something were to happen, we have nothing. Like, we would have to borrow money in order to mitigate whatever that something is.
1:18:23 Ramit Sethi? And have you ever gotten in that situation, Lakeisha? Like, zero savings? Maybe you had, you got sick or you lost your job or anything like that?
1:18:31 Speaker 01 Fortunately, no, I have not.
1:18:33 Ramit Sethi? You're basically driving without a seatbelt. You know? Most of the time, you're gonna be fine. The one time, you're not, and it's over. And nobody can tell you. No, I'm not a parent here to nag you, put your seatbelt on, build a savings account. I can't do it. Only you can. But when I see this, I feel extreme fear. I'm not afraid of a lot. I'm afraid of teenage girls because they're mean. And I'm afraid of big old insects, you know, that fly? Maybe roller coasters, but I'm afraid of this. Wow. Zero savings, zero investments, and at the ages of 38 and 45, $190,000 of debt.
1:19:18 Ramit Sethi? You can hear the extreme concern in my voice. We have a lot of work to do to put them on a path to their rich life. My question is, are they willing to? We'll find out next week in part two of my conversation with Lakeisha and James. We'll dive deeper into their conscious spending plan and see what changes they're willing to make to get them on the right path. As always, thank you for watching and thank you for listening. I will see you next week.
Previous 192. “We spend 98% of what we make—Where is it all going?” Next 194. “$0 savings, $0 investments. Is it too late for us?” (Part 2) Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated