97. Question Time: Leaving office, a Labour Scotland, and what's the point of Davos?

What do Rory, Mark Zuckerberg and Saif Gaddafi all have in common? Will we see a Labour revival in Scotland? Why haven't the CPS followed up over lockdown parties in Downing Street? Rory and Alastair answer these questions and discuss the role social media played in Jacinda Ardern's resignation, the current situation in Haiti, and cultural recommendations for the week. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening, join the TRIP Plus Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:43Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to another edition of the Rest is Politics Question Time with me, Alastair Campbell.

• 1:48Rory Stewart?

  And me, Rory Stewart.

• 1:50Alastair Campbell?

  And Rory, lots of questions about Jacinda Ardern, who announced her departure last week. Let's just give this one. Chris Thorne, Jacinda announced her resignation citing burnout. She no longer had enough left in the tank. If high caliber politicians like her are burning out, what will be left with? Tom Darling Fernley, what role do you think corrosive discord has played in her decision to resign? Has that landscape changed since Helen Clark's tenure? The extent it's now impossible to compare their longevity.

• 2:16Rory Stewart?

  It was pretty shocking, wasn't it? Because she she left in the in the middle of things. And New Zealand, in some ways, is something where I think we would have said traditionally was seen as a a more gentle political environment than the United Kingdom or or Britain. And yet, obviously, the combination of the abuse that she's received, the stress of the job has has been too much for her.

• 2:35Alastair Campbell?

  I think she's been a breath of fresh air. I think that she didn't say that a lot of this was about the misogyny. But I know that it is. And the other thing, she has been under sustained attack along with Macron and Trudeau. I think they're the three most attacked and targeted politicians from the whole kind of bots and troll farms and all that stuff. And having taken on gun control and having taken on Covid, she's had all the anti-vaxxers after her. And I think as well, having, you know, she's got a young child, she's been through, for, as you say, a relatively calm, peaceful place like New Zealand. They've been through an awful lot of stuff, you know, the killings in Christchurch, Covid, of course.

• 3:20Alastair Campbell?

  And she's just reached a point, I think, of thinking, I think she's genuine when she says that, you know, there's just nothing left there. And even though people were pointing to the fact she was less popular than she used to be, she was still the most popular politician in in New Zealand. And I think we, you know, we talked to Helen Clark about this. Didn't you sense, funny enough, I sensed when we were talking to Helen Clark that she was thinking just in the might be there too long. She wasn't, she was, I don't know, there was something about the way she was talking about it.

• 3:47Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, you're right, wasn't she? She was hinting at that.

• 3:49Alastair Campbell?

  She was holding back.

• 3:50Rory Stewart?

  It does bring me back to my theme, which is extremely unpopular with listeners, but my general theme that it is brutal. Absolutely brutal being a politician and.

• 4:00Alastair Campbell?

  And I think especially, I think I do think especially if you're a woman, especially if you're a woman of colour.

• 4:04Rory Stewart?

  But I but I also think it's striking for me how many of my former colleagues in the Conservative Party. Who wouldn't normally have left politics and who are in safe seats where they're not actually under threat are now leaving. We talked about Chris Skidmore last week. We praised his, his stuff on carbon neutrality. Absolutely no reason why a guy who's in his early 40s, has a lot of talent, been ten of the cabinet, why he would feel it necessary to leave politics.

• 4:34Alastair Campbell?

  Is he going?

• 4:34Rory Stewart?

  Sajid Javid, he's leaving. Sajid Javid's leaving. These are all people who actually would have a decent shot at very, very senior positions in government if they stayed admittedly, probably, almost certainly a Labour government's coming in. But in the past, people went into politics often with a sense that they'd be there for the long run. You know, all the classic figures that we, of the 19th, 20th century, you know, Wilson, Callahan, they went in, out of office, Harold Macmillan, in, out of office. But these, you know, Harold Macmillan was like them, you know, somebody in his 40s whose career might not have been going anywhere, but he stuck around and he waited and came back as Prime Minister and people are not prepared to do that anymore.

• 5:16Rory Stewart?

  And I think that's partly that it's a pretty unpleasant job.

• 5:20Alastair Campbell?

  I've got no doubt at all that Jacinda Ardern, once she's sort of worked out what she wants to do with her life, I mean, you know, I'd be amazed if there aren't big international jobs that are pushed towards as should she want them. I want to tell you a funny story about Chris Hipkins, who's the, her successor. You know, I think will be pretty good, actually. He's, he's probably a bit more, more to the centre than Jacinda. He's got a city adjacent constituency, which is a really interesting mix of lots of white working class and also young middle class aspirational types. So I think that, and it was unanimous, there was no debate that it was going to be him, once the, once the effective number two had announced he wasn't going to do it. But there's a very funny story during Covid about Chris Hipkins. He was effectively

• 6:03Alastair Campbell?

  the kind of Matt Hancock. He was the front man for the Covid response, doing all the sort of next slide please stuff. This thing went kind of pretty big at the time because he was arguing that people had to have at least an hour where they could go out, this is during the lockdown, and go out and get some exercise. He said it's important that everybody gets out. There so that you can spread your legs. And I think he meant to say, stretch your legs, but spread your legs. Was not, not what he's, not what he's. Spread your legs became the, the slogan of the, uh, that you, if you go to New Zealand, you'll see lots of tea mugs and T shirts with spread your legs and a picture of the new prime minister on them.

• 6:42Rory Stewart?

  Justin, is it right that she worked for the Labour Party in the UK?

• 6:45Alastair Campbell?

  She worked for the government. She worked for, she worked as an advisor in, was it the delivery in the, in, in number 10, the cabinet office?

• 6:51Rory Stewart?

  Right.

• 6:52Alastair Campbell?

  Um, she was, she was an advisor, yeah.

• 6:54Rory Stewart?

  The, the one thing I would say is that this idea of big international jobs, most of the people I know who do those jobs, big UN jobs are pretty frustrated. And most of them feel that it's not half as rewarding as it was when they were ministers or.

• 7:08Alastair Campbell?

  Well, although, although Helen Clark, you know, Helen Clark loved her job, I think, doing the environmental, the development stuff. So, right, let's go, let's, there's.

• 7:16Rory Stewart?

  I've got an India G20 for you, David Griffiths. With India having taken up the presidency of both the UN Security Council and G20, how do you read its intentions on the global stage? Can it honour its pledge to be a moderating force when domestically it's become so profoundly hostile to Muslims, stroke minorities and to political dissent?

• 7:35Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. It's interesting. We don't really, when we, you and I are sort of talking in our usual way about the sort of the evils of populism and polarization. And we throw in Trump and we throw in Erdogan and we throw in all the usual suspects, but actually Modi's a big part of that as well. Um, I think particularly in relation to the, the religious polarization there.

• 7:59Rory Stewart?

  One hundred percent. And, and of course, terrifying record when he was in Gujarat, when he essentially failed to intervene in a horrifying anti-Muslim riot. Which included prominent Muslims making phone calls into his office and into the police, which weren't answered and then being massacred. Extraordinary sort of strange militia groups that organize around him, strange relationships to various kinds of religious leaders. He is a deeply disturbing figure, but India's nominal growth, including inflation, is, is projected to be at 15.4% this year. Which is going to be pretty extraordinary. I mean, that's, that's seven percent real.

• 8:40Alastair Campbell?

  And they're going to become the biggest, uh, country in the world. I, I wonder as well if, is in relation to the position of the UN. Because I think at some point, the UN Security Council is going to have to reform. I don't know how it happens, because of course you've got the big five, post-war big five, US, UK, France, Russia and China with the kind of veto. But there will have to be some sort of recognition of these, of these bigger powers that have now emerged. And I wonder, I just wonder whether, in direct answer to the question, whether he might actually use it for that, to try to get that reform.

• 9:15Rory Stewart?

  They will be the third largest economy in the world by 2030. But, but I think it's important to understand both that you're right, that they will need a position in the UN, but also that we shouldn't assume that that is necessarily going to be something that's going to sit easily with the kind of values which the UN epitomized in the 1990s, because South Africa, Brazil and India, certainly until recently Brazil won the bol scenario, would have found itself almost certainly on the opposite side of the United States in relation to Russia, Ukraine.

• 9:47Alastair Campbell?

  Now Rory, domestic, we got a few questions on the teachers' pay issue. You were coming in for some criticism for something you said last week, and I was coming under criticism for not picking you up on it.

• 9:57Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Alastair Campbell?

  Emma, did Rory just not know that the teachers' 5% pay rise did not come with extra government funding and therefore placed extra burden on existing school budgets? Or is there an element of campaigning creeping in Rory?

• 10:14Alastair Campbell?

  Just answer it, you didn't know.

• 10:16Rory Stewart?

  I, I, so I, no, I, I mean, I, the, the answer is I, they were awarded a pay increase, which was done almost as soon as Rishi Sunak came in. And then education, as I said, was one of the biggest winners in the budget. But you're right, the pay increase is coming out of existing school budgets. That doesn't mean the pay increase isn't happening, but where it's being paid for is out of school budgets. But school budgets have actually had a significant increase, certainly compared to other bits of government.

• 10:41Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but hold on, you did say, this is something I got, I also got a bollocking from Fiona for not picking you up on something. You said, how could you just let him say that this will take us back to 2010 levels of spending, as if that's some great achievement?

• 10:54Rory Stewart?

  But 2010 is when Gordon Brown was in, so 2010 was-

• 10:58Alastair Campbell?

  Yes, I know, I know. So is that progress that 13 years after the Tories come in?

• 11:05Rory Stewart?

  Oh, I see what you mean. Okay. I suppose, well, I suppose what I'd say to that is that Gordon Brown had increased real term educational spending.

• 11:15Alastair Campbell?

  Massively.

• 11:15Rory Stewart?

  By nearly 20%.

• 11:17Alastair Campbell?

  Massively.

• 11:18Rory Stewart?

  And the result was that by 2010.

• 11:20Alastair Campbell?

  No, the result was higher standards.

• 11:21Rory Stewart?

  The result was, no, actually, lower standards in schools, unfortunately. It's the sad truth of it. He actually increased the spending and you dropped down the pizza tables on numerous.

• 11:29Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, the pizza's not all about the pizza tables, Rory. The standards still went up, they just didn't go up as high.

• 11:34Rory Stewart?

  International standards went down.

• 11:36Alastair Campbell?

  They didn't go up as high as those countries that don't have private education, Rory, like Finland and Canada.

• 11:39Rory Stewart?

  International standards went down. I mean, I think that that's an uncomfortable fact, which maybe we can get into more, which is there isn't a direct relationship between the spending and how we performed in international standards. Because I think actually things like the focus on phonics, which was very, very controversial, and the new approach to maths seems to have had a real result over the last 10 years. But the bigger issue, I guess, about 2010 is that absolutely, you were right in the last podcast we did, that there wasn't huge protests against the Labour government from unions during that period. But that is because Labour had very, very dramatically increased public spending until it got to a situation in 2010 where it was spending nearly £700 billion a year and

• 12:24Rory Stewart?

  taking in about £100 billion less in revenue.

• 12:27Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, bailing out the bloody banks by then. Because it's smashed the economy.

• 12:30Rory Stewart?

  The question is, what is the sustainable level of spending? You can definitely make the unions happy by spending an enormous amount of money. But the question is, I guess, for Keir Starmer, how much is he proposing to spend? Has he actually told us that he's going to increase teachers' salaries more?

• 12:44Alastair Campbell?

  I love the way you always try and take questions about the Tory government of what Keir Starmer does. I've got a good question about Keir Starmer, actually.

• 12:51Rory Stewart?

  Go on then.

• 12:52Alastair Campbell?

  Barry D. Celt or Celt, wouldn't Keir Starmer's time have been better spent working on here and now strategies to help Britain's struggling families than hobnobbing with the so-called global elite at Davos, where leader of the opposition in the UK means very little? What do you think about Davos? Have you presumably been to Davos?

• 13:07Rory Stewart?

  No, I actually, I have, I was a Davos young global leader back in the day and was slightly horrified to find, when I was made this thing, this was back in sort of 2007, before I got into Parliament, that I was on the same list with Mark Zuckerberg and Saif Ghadhafi. I think.

• 13:24Alastair Campbell?

  Wow.

• 13:25Rory Stewart?

  And so that was pretty slightly put me off.

• 13:27Alastair Campbell?

  They've, they've, they've gone on to even bigger things than you.

• 13:30Rory Stewart?

  Slightly put me off Davos ever since. And tell, tell us about your Davos experiences.

• 13:34Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, I loathe Davos. I absolutely loathe it. I, I thought it was just full of incredibly, there was this sort of, what I found very stressful about Davos, I only ever went, you know, when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, I've never been there voluntarily, as it were. And it's just full of incredibly self-important people. Now, I'm not saying that they don't have interesting discussions, but I don't really feel that they need to go all that way to do it. I think they have made, you know, I think there've been stages in modern history where discussions at Davos may have led to kind of more productive politics and economics. But I don't criticize Keir Starmer for going because I think at this stage of his oppositionness, whatever you want to call, whatever the

• 14:15Alastair Campbell?

  opposition equivalent of a premiership is, I think he's got to get noticed and I think he's got to get out and about and speak to audiences.

• 14:22Rory Stewart?

  And do you think it was probably right that Rishi Sunak, by contrast, did not go? Do you think he made the right decision not to go?

• 14:28Alastair Campbell?

  I don't think it was a big deal that he didn't go. I think there was a point where every world leader felt they had to be there. And I think that was just silly. I think the United Nations is the place for that kind of thing. And these, so it was fine for, for Sunak not to go and fine, fine to, for Keir to go.

• 14:43Rory Stewart?

  Something challenging's just come in. So from Mindful East Dorset. Is Boris Johnson still popular, you asked last week? I live and work in Poole Dorset. Here there is overwhelming support for Johnson, mostly from the middle and working class. There's real dislike of Sunak, who they feel is a backstabber. Nevertheless, there's still historical-based support for the Tories. So there we are. Deeply disturbing news for both of us, but in Poole, he's incredibly popular.

• 15:11Alastair Campbell?

  I did an event a couple of days ago where I tested the water on, it was a very Tory audience and I tested the, the waters and they don't love Sunak at all, but I think they've got more respect for him. They think trust is just a complete joke. And I think Johnson just, there was a.

• 15:28Alastair Campbell?

  It's hard to describe, but he's got incredible, he's still got that sort of energy and he's got, I don't define it as charisma, he's got something that makes people kind of interested in him. But he's had his shot and, you know, I think for the public, I think this idea that Johnson comes back is just nonsense.

• 15:44Rory Stewart?

  Well, I'm hoping these eight hundred thousand pounds undeclared loans and all this stuff is eventually going to have some impact on people's sense of him. I mean, at what point are they going to think this guy is corrupt?

• 15:56Alastair Campbell?

  Well, here's a question, Phil M. Should Johnson and others be charged with misconduct in public office? Why haven't the CPS or Met Police followed up on numerous court cases where the findings were that the government had acted unlawfully? I think there's a difference between, you know, whether there are questions of law. For example, if the Supreme Court were to find that the UK government and/or the Scottish government were right or wrong about the gender recognition issue, gender identification issue, I don't believe that either Rishi Sunak or Nicholas Sturgeon should go to jail. I think you've got to be very, very careful about that stuff. But I think misconduct in public office, I do think we've seen evidence of that, I really do. I think we've seen it in relation to PPE. And I have

• 16:40Alastair Campbell?

  to tell you, the old Bill were all over number 10 on that whole so-called cash for honour stuff that was absolutely nothing compared to some of the stuff that I think we've seen in recent years.

• 16:52Rory Stewart?

  Here's two questions which are related to each other. So Kay Ray has said, I've seen this week that Haiti no longer has any elected government officials. What happens to Haiti now? And then Kay Cook makes the broader point. Apologies if this is a rather basic question, but what do politicians and government ministers actually do that couldn't be done equally well or better by civil servants? She adds, I obviously watched too many yes ministers in the early 80s. So what's your answer on what do politicians and government ministers actually do that couldn't be done equally well or better by civil servants?

• 17:31Alastair Campbell?

  Politicians are elected to give political leadership and to implement those policies on which they've been elected and civil servants exist to try to help them do so. Now, in a place like Haiti, where you've got political, social, economic conditions that we can barely begin to imagine, and that will include a very, I suspect, a very, very weak civil service infrastructure. So I think it'll be very difficult for Haiti without huge international support even to run an effective government. And then you have the kind of instability that can lead to very, very bad places. I mean, you did have a situation in Belgium a few years ago.

• 18:13Alastair Campbell?

  I think Belgium was, Belgium the longest running, I think Northern Ireland might be getting close to it, but Belgium at one point was the longest running country without a government and the civil servants. But there you've got a kind of, you've got a proper bureaucracy that can kind of tick over, they tick over.

• 18:29Rory Stewart?

  It's, it's interesting, I mean, thinking about what the difference between a minister and a civil servant is. And I felt when I, having been a civil servant and then became a minister, it took me a long time to learn the difference. Initially, I thought that I could try to run my department. So first job was in as the environment minister and then, then I moved on to do international development and then prisons. I started by thinking that I could run the department like a civil servant through policy discussions around a table and sort of seminars and debating with other senior civil servants. And it took me nearly three years to realise that the relationship between a civil servant and a politician isn't like that.

• 19:12Rory Stewart?

  You're not really, as it were, one of them, you're not really their friend. And you have to accept that you're going to have to make the decision. In many cases, you really can't debate it forever, you can't have an endless discussion, you have to say, this is what we're going to do, you have to put up the fact that-

• 19:31Alastair Campbell?

  The tanks are going.

• 19:32Rory Stewart?

  The tanks are going. Have to put up the fact that many civil servants will deeply disagree with what you've done. And sometimes I felt I actually needed- To use the media to get anything done. I mean, as prisons minister, I had to go out and say, I'm going to resign unless violence comes down in 12 months in order to actually give me the the power internally within the department to drive through what I wanted to do. So it's a funny job being a politician.

• 19:56Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:57Rory Stewart?

  It's a different type of leadership.

• 19:58Alastair Campbell?

  We we had, we had pretty good relations with the civil service most of the time and particularly within number 10. I guess, you know, we were lucky to get some of the best and the brightest there. And I think by and large, they were, you know, they were really good. But there's no doubt there are some departments, I mean, the Home Office was sort of pretty famous for this about where the Home Office really, and I guess, you know, prisons very much part of that beat, that they really sort of felt that ministers were a bit of an inconvenience, that they really know knew best how things would work. And and of course, there's nothing worse for a minister than you, you sit there in a meeting, you give the civil servants their marching orders. But if they give them marching orders and they walk out thinking, I'm not really sure about that. I'm not very impressed by that. And then they come back a day, a week or a month later with all the

• 20:43Alastair Campbell?

  reasons why it couldn't be done. It's very, very frustrating. But I think technocratic government, which is what the question really is calling for, I'm not sure that's what we want or need.

• 20:53Rory Stewart?

  I'm aware that we didn't really fully answer the Haiti point. So again, for listeners to remind people, the that the current crisis, I mean, there's been crisis after crisis in Haiti, but the current crisis was was triggered by this assassination in July 2021 of the president, who had been ruling in a pretty dictatorial fashion before he was toppled. He failed to hold elections 2019. And so the last 10 senators left over from the Rump elections, finally their terms expired in January. And the current ruling interim prime minister isn't holding elections because Haiti is in the grips of the most horrifying gang violence. Canada is about,

• 21:33Rory Stewart?

  Canada's often very involved in Haiti, about to try to deploy more peacekeeping forces to try to deal with it. But it's, it's so, so sad because there's been every form of foreign intervention in Haiti, and it's very difficult to believe, after all the failures the past, that much is going to happen positive in the future.

• 21:56Alastair Campbell?

  Okay Rory, let's go for a break.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 22:01Speaker 03

  On October 2nd.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped moving? You stall, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 22:19Speaker 03

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a minute without parent.

• 22:28Speaker 05

  Espolone Tequila, balanced, delicious, 100% acave, 0% ego. Just add ice, lime and your mouth. For a real margarita, ride the rooster.

• 22:38Speaker 06

  Espolone Tequila, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof. Copyright 2026, Canadian, New York, New York. Drink responsibly.

• 22:48Alastair Campbell?

  Brilliant, so, as we're back from our break, what have we got next? Here's one Rory, Suffolk Canary. Why won't any major politician simply come out and say Brexit has been an absolute disaster and it must be reversed as soon as possible? After all, says Suffolk Canary, that's the position of the majority of the public. I mean, the polls certainly seem to say that, but let's put the polls and the view behind.

• 23:11Rory Stewart?

  Sorry, I was corrected on this by a pollster who said the polls now show the majority of the public think Brexit was a mistake, but we shouldn't conclude from that that the majority of the public think it should now be undone.

• 23:23Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, exactly, but let's just take the first part of the question. Why is there no major politician coming out and simply saying it's been an absolute disaster? Now, some politicians are, but of course, if you've got the government and the most of the major politicians that we know are on the front benches of the government or the opposition, none of them are saying it because they've decided not to say it. The Liberal Democrats have decided not to say it because, I think particularly because they could come out and sort of say Brexit is a disaster and we would like to reverse it, and that would help them in the opinion polls, but it wouldn't necessarily help them in the places where they need to win. I think it will happen, I do think it will happen, and it does, Suffolk Canary is right

• 24:03Alastair Campbell?

  that it needs a, somebody in Parliament, or possibly one of the leaders of the, you know, the mayors or the devolved administrations. I think Nicola Sturgeon calls it out a lot, and Mark Drakeford in our interview, he called it out a lot, but it needs somebody to make it their campaign. It needs a Michael Heseltine of 50 years ago.

• 24:22Rory Stewart?

  And it'd be an interesting, interesting campaign, wouldn't it? Because it'd probably be a five, 10 year campaign.

• 24:27Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Rory Stewart?

  Mark Lubianski. At the next general election, does the road for an overall Labour majority run through Scotland? Do you think Labour will do well enough in Scotland for that to happen? So again, to remind listeners, Labour once had an absolutely commanding position in Scotland. When I came into the House of Commons in 2010, Labour really dominated Scotland. You'll remember my friend Frank Roy from Motherwell. I remember sitting with him and being shown pew he sat in in the Catholic Cathedral in Motherwell. And him saying that Monday to Friday, his body was with the trade union movement. And Saturday, his, his heart was with Celtic Football Club. And Sunday, his soul was with the Catholic Church and watching him working his campaigns.

• 25:10Rory Stewart?

  But then wiped out, I mean, totally wiped out by the SNP in elections in 2015 and 2019. So do you see a Labour return in Scotland?

• 25:20Alastair Campbell?

  Look, the Tories are pretty reviled up there. I mean, they've got a base, as Michael Heseltine talked about, how he, he makes his donations to the Scottish Conservatives. And, you know, that they, I don't think they necessarily are going to be sort of sent to oblivion. But I think Labour's success in Scotland does depend on a large part in Scots feeling that Labour can win across the country. Not every SNP supporter defines their politics and their support of the SNP through independence. And so I think Anna Sawa is, is doing a, a good job of projecting a, a sense of Scottish Labour that is, that's got an appeal. He, I think he's personally a very attractive character.

• 26:06Alastair Campbell?

  But ultimately, I, I agree with the premise of the question that unless there is some sort of shift up there, it becomes very, very, very difficult for Labour to get the majority.

• 26:13Rory Stewart?

  And the problem is that essentially the Conservatives have managed to frame themselves in Scotland as the unionist party.

• 26:22Rory Stewart?

  And the SNP has framed themselves really as the kind of progressive party of the left, and it hasn't left much space for Labour to operate in.

• 26:29Alastair Campbell?

  But that's why I think Labour can be the unionist party by projecting itself as the party that is going to get the Tories out of Scotland, get the Tory government out of Scotland. And I think that's kind of, that's why I think it's important that these events that I do, I always say to people, not necessarily how you're going to vote, but who do you think is going to win? And there's definitely been a shift in the last few months towards most audiences now thinking there's going to be a Labour government. Well, if you have that sense across Scotland, that the Tories are going to be gone, and that, that's why I think it was a mistake for Nicola Sturgeon to say that the next election would be a de facto referendum on independence, because I think a lot of

• 27:12Alastair Campbell?

  people will, in a general election, I think some Scots, not a lot, but some Scots will actually vote differently in a general election where a Labour vote can get rid of the Tories than they might in an independence referendum. So I think Scotland's complicated, but the question is right, Labour is, this is why Labour cannot, cannot, and I'm glad that Keir Starmer keeps saying, no complacency. Labour cannot take this victory for granted, even though the Tories are absolutely tanking and showing no sign of getting their act together. Shall we lie in the mood?

• 27:46Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, go on then.

• 27:48Alastair Campbell?

  Robin Hall, have you watched Bank of Dave on Netflix? What are your thoughts on it and the starring role that Burnley played? And how can we facilitate local community organisations to provide the services their towns and villages need? Now Rory, as you know, I think you need to improve your cultural education, particularly modern culture. Have you seen Bank of Dave yet?

• 28:08Rory Stewart?

  I have not. Tell us about it.

• 28:10Alastair Campbell?

  You must see Bank of Dave. I think you will love it. And I am biased because Dave Fishwick.

• 28:15Rory Stewart?

  What was it about?

• 28:16Alastair Campbell?

  Well, it's about a guy called Dave Fishwick, who's a minibus salesman from Burnley, and the film is set in Burnley. And he decides that the big banks, which caused the crash, really don't care about or understand so-called ordinary people in places like Burnley. He's made quite a few bob, he understands business. He starts lending money to people and he notices that, provided he's clear about it, they're always paying back.

• 28:41Rory Stewart?

  Is this a true story?

• 28:42Alastair Campbell?

  It's a true story. It's a true story. He decides to try and set up a bank. And he is obstructed in so many ways by the banking establishment. And Hugh Bonneville plays the sort of the the smooth banking official who's trying to stop him. Rory Kinnear plays Dave.

• 29:02Rory Stewart?

  That's Hugh Bonneville from Downton Abbey, same guy.

• 29:04Alastair Campbell?

  That's the one, yeah, that's the one. And spoiler alert, David Beats Goliath, and there is now Bank of Dave, Bank of Dave exists in Burnley. But what I, it's honestly, Rory, it's such a feel good film. And and it does show, it shows, I mean, I've written my new European column about Bank of Dave and saying that this is, this is somebody who's actually done leveling up in Burnley.

• 29:26Rory Stewart?

  Oh, lovely, lovely, lovely. What a lovely story. My little recommendation is to to bring people back, I've mentioned it before, but I'm now deep in the heart of it. This extraordinary novel by Norman Mailer called Harlot's Ghost, which is based on the CIA in the 1950s and 60s, based on the most incredible research by Norman Mailer. He manages to provide portraits of real people in such kind of extraordinary detail, how they hold their martini glasses, how they go to the loo, and the sense of the, this enormous organisation which is running a tunnel through Berlin to try to tap into East German communications that is trying to assassinate Fidel Castro

• 30:11Rory Stewart?

  with exploding cigars and exploding starfish when he goes scuba fishing. The sense of a, an enormous bureaucracy that is a sort of self licking lollipop that is spending its whole life consumed with its own bureaucratic infighting, with the Cold War as a kind of distant background. So, and really beautifully written. I mean, I, my admiration for Norman Mailer's prose style is just through the roof.

• 30:35Alastair Campbell?

  Well, if you're going to promote one of his novels, I'm going to promote his book, The Fight.

• 30:40Rory Stewart?

  Ha.

• 30:40Alastair Campbell?

  Which is, have you read that one about Muhammad Ali and George Foreman?

• 30:44Rory Stewart?

  Set in the Congo, set in Zaire.

• 30:46Alastair Campbell?

  Kinshasa.

• 30:47Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, with with the great, great line, who's the, who's the great promoter who says, um?

• 30:52Alastair Campbell?

  Don King.

• 30:52Rory Stewart?

  We're going to have us a fight like the Spartans at Monopoly.

• 30:58Alastair Campbell?

  Well, so there I am, Norman Mailer getting lots of plug. And Rory, you've been on a few planes of late, as you occasionally get criticised for. But have you watched any good films on the plane? Or do you just sit there with your Kindle?

• 31:10Rory Stewart?

  Well, I did. I did love the Elvis film. I thought that was really, really, really wonderful. I'm very, very grateful for the chance to watch that. I've been watching something which I don't know whether other people will like it. It's an extraordinary western series called 1883. And it's about a family heading. It's a prequel to quite a popular series called Yellowstone, set 120 years earlier. But it describes a whole group of people moving west. And it's, I think it's beautifully shot. It's very interesting in the way that it retells the American story. And I've been doing quite a lot of that because I've also watched, did you see the BBC series The English?

• 31:54Alastair Campbell?

  No.

• 31:55Rory Stewart?

  So that again is set in almost exactly the same period. In that case, an encounter between an aristocratic Englishwoman and a Native American Pawnee scout. So no, I'm getting really into getting into westerns at the moment. I also just watched True Grit. Seen that Coen Brothers western?

• 32:13Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. What's with the western thing?

• 32:15Rory Stewart?

  I don't know.

• 32:15Alastair Campbell?

  Do you see yourself as a latter day John Wayne?

• 32:18Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, it's really, I don't know. Well, these are, these are kind of this contemporary style of western, which shows how strange that period is. Because of course, the 1880s, 1890s is a period where in Britain, we're all going around in top hats and we're riding the Underground from South Kenne to Westminster. And yet, in America, people in the same costumes are in a completely different universe. Part genocidal, part massive ecological change as the bison are destroyed and the west is open up. And part the formation of modern state.

• 32:51Alastair Campbell?

  Right, very good. I also did, Fiona and I went to see, there's been a lot of hype about Banshees of Inisherin. And I've got to say, it didn't really do it for me.

• 33:02Rory Stewart?

  Didn't work for you? Tell us a bit about it. Go on, what's it worth it?

• 33:06Alastair Campbell?

  Well, it's very hard to say what it's about. It's about two guys who live in this very remote part of Ireland and they used to be friends and then they're not.

• 33:14Rory Stewart?

  And it didn't speak to you as somebody descended from someone from a remote Highland community, you don't think this, this was the world your father's grandfather came from?

• 33:22Alastair Campbell?

  It's beautifully filmed, the scenery is fantastic, there's a bit of good fiddle music in it. But I did sort of leave thinking, not really sure what that was about. I mean, obviously maybe missed something. Now, listen, how about this as a final question?

• 33:35Rory Stewart?

  Go on then.

• 33:35Alastair Campbell?

  We get a lot of young listeners, Rory, which I think is absolutely brilliant. And this one is from somebody called Alex. As a 15 year old, how can I be interested in getting involved in proper politics in the midst of this awful corrupt populism? I find it increasingly difficult to be engaged, given the hopelessness of the national and global situation. And as a young person, what can I do? And Rory, I've written a book called But What Can I Do? So Alex, the first thing you can do when we finally get the damn thing out on Amazon or wherever you get your books is preorder it. But I think a lot of young people are feeling that right now. They don't quite, they know that politics is important, but they just look at it and feel repelled.

• 34:15Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, it's very, very sad, isn't it? It's very sad. And of course, it is true, as we said, that it's a tough profession. It's also true that we absolutely owe it to the world to make it a decent profession again, something that talented, idealistic people will want to join. Well, I've been quite impressed by some of the people who've been contacting me recently. To be honest, a lot of them actually on Labour lists. Keir Starmer's doing something. He's opening up the Labour Party and there are some surprisingly interesting, very talented candidates now on Labour lists. Probably, if I was being a bit rude, people with more experience and backgrounds than many of the people on the Labour benches at the moment. So I think there's a story there, maybe you can tell

• 34:58Rory Stewart?

  us a bit about another week, which is, is Keir Starmer deliberately pursuing a policy of trying to open up the Labour Party to different sorts of candidates?

• 35:05Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think he's definitely trying to get people into Parliament who could be a good part of a Labour government.

• 35:11Rory Stewart?

  I've been impressed by some of them recently. So maybe that will encourage, encourage the 15 year old to keep engaged.

• 35:18Alastair Campbell?

  Good. Oh, let's try this one as a final one. Andy Brown, I think it's a one word answer to this one, Rory. Has there ever been a confirmed sighting of Boris Johnson paying for anything?

• 35:27Rory Stewart?

  No. On that note, good night. Bye bye.

• 35:33Alastair Campbell?

  Bye bye.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. If y'all keep the blame on me.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 36:00Speaker 03

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17.9.0 without parent.

• 36:09Speaker 05

  Espolone Tequila. Balanced, delicious. 100% agave, 0% ego. Just add ice, lime, and your mouth. For real margarita, ride the rooster.

• 36:20Speaker 06

  Espolone Tequila, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof. Copyright 2026, Compaq America, New York, New York. Drink responsibly.