How A.I. Will Destroy Or Save Humanity w/ Mo Gawdat

The former Chief Business Officer of GOOGLE X has a WARNING for us about AI and you NEED to hear it! THIS is the turning point for humanity… While many people are touting AI’s incredible benefits, others are striking a more cautionary tone about the future of AI, including this week’s guest, MO GAWDAT. As the former Chief Business Officer of GOOGLE X, Mo and his team were constantly on the cutting edge of INNOVATION in the tech industry, diving as deep as anyone into AI development. Since leaving Google, Mo has become a three-time best-selling author and hosts the #1 mental health podcast, SLO MO. This week, I’m on a mission with Mo to dispel speculation, wild conjectures, and misinformation as we reveal the TRUTH ABOUT AI, GOOD and BAD. Listen closely to Mo’s incredible insights on… The future of the world with AI The looming DANGEROUS of AI and what we can do about it Why people working in AI is deeply concerned about the IMMEDIATE and LONG-TERM RISKS AI GENERATED relationships between people and machines How AI is impacting JOBS and CAREERS, including those in the TECH INDUSTRY. Can you teach AI to be ETHICAL? Does AI have EMOTIONS? How AI will affect jobs Why AI is our new OPPENHEIMER MOMENT My interview with Mo is honest and insightful. It answers a lot of the questions I’ve had about AI, but it also raises so many more. Every one of us should start asking those questions to better understand how we can incorporate AI for the GREATER GOOD OF HUMANITY. If you want to LEARN MORE ABOUT AI…and you should… you need to listen to this episode. Or you could ASK ChatGPT and see what it tells you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ed Mylett?

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• 0:45Ed Mylett?

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• 1:01Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company, for me, of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  On October 2nd.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:25Speaker 03

  I'm not the first nanny.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:36Ed Mylett?

  This is the Ed Mileage Show.

• 1:40Ed Mylett?

  Okay, welcome back to the show, everybody. Today's a very serious episode for me, and it's one that I've been preparing for, for several weeks. And with some trepidation and excitement at the same time because of the topic and because of the gentleman that I have here today. Mo Goddett is a brilliant man, but he's also on the cutting edge of some. Very, very interesting technology that many of you are familiar with. And we're going to talk today about AI a great deal. Mo's qualified to do it. He's a former CBO of Google X. He's a three times bestselling author. He's a host of the number one mental health podcast in the world. Got a couple of books that I love. Solve for Happy, Engineer Your Path to Joy, tremendous book I read in one sitting.

• 2:25Ed Mylett?

  But also Scary Smart, The Future of How Artificial Intelligence and How You Can Save Our World is probably where we're going to spend most of our time today is on AI. So Mo, thank you for being here all the way from Dubai. Grateful to have you, brother.

• 2:40Speaker 04

  I'm so grateful for this, you know, interaction and encounter. It was really kind of you to reach out. It's very kind of you to introduce me so kindly. So thank you so much.

• 2:52Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, it's wonderful to have you. When I say trepidation, not about having you here, but frankly, frankly, about the way the world may be potentially changing in front of our eyes. And very few people are shining light on what the potential risks are to this, you know, real revolution that we're really in the midst of, that many people aren't even aware of. So I just want to start out and kind of give you the floor. The first thing that floored me is you said AI will change humanity's future. That's a pretty bold proclamation. Why is that the case? And give us a little insight for those that are newer to this as to how AI works and operates.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  So we, just to confirm, our way of life as we know it is game over. It's, I'm not talking future here. I'm talking 2025, right? So that's not in the very far future. And I think you're absolutely spot on when you say that not enough people are aware of this. Not enough people are aware of this simply because I think our media and our politics and our business and capitalist system may want us to keep our attention focused on other things for now because they themselves have not figured it out. And the truth of the matter is that we as humans.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  Uh, I think we only had two assets uh since the beginning of humanity that got us to where we are now. Uh, you know, all of the civilization we've built, uh, all of the uh safety we've created around our species. All of the progress we've made is because of our intelligence. And our ability to connect to each other as humans and and and these two, I believe, are going to be the core of the next few years now. Uh, intelligence as uh as a superpower is why humanity was on top of the food chain. And intelligence is now being handed over swiftly to beings that are more intelligent than us.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  So ChatGPT, I think, was the first eye-opener uh to a glimpse into that world that has been hidden within the labs. Uh, for probably more than fifteen years now. So artificial intelligence is nothing new. I mean, we've we've started to talk about AI in nineteen fifty-six in Dartmouth. Uh, you know, and basically the the Dartmouth workshop was was where we where the term was coined. And we attempted to to uh to to create AI for a very long time, until the turn of the century in the year two thousand. Uh, where we started to discover deep learning. And and deep learning, I'm not gonna ta- bore our audience with the technical details.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  But there is a very, very significant difference between how I coded machines until the year two thousand or, you know, until the turn of the century, if you want. Where machines were not intelligent at all. I I used my intelligence to solve a problem and then I told the machine to do it over and over and over repeatedly, right? Right. When we discovered deep learning, it was the very first time where we sort of refrained from telling the machine how to solve the solution. And told the machine to observe certain patterns and produce its own intelligence for how a a problem could be solved, right? So when when, uh, you know, an Instagram recommendation engine uh shows you a specific video.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  There was no programmer out there that said uh to the machine, Ed. Lives in this country, you know, he's of that age, he has this family, you know, uh, uh, um, uh, structure, he knows those friends. So show him that video, that that's not how it happens at all. The machine is observing Ed's behaviors, it's observing all of the content available to it, it's observing. How, uh, what is popular, what is trending, what is, you know, uh, um, what you click on, what you don't click on, and eventually telling you. See this one, this one is good for you, right? Now, when, when intelligence is handed over to a, a, um, a being. That is today smarter than most humans on the planet, let, let me just be very clear, chat G P T.

• 7:06Speaker 04

  Uh, four, as, as we have it today, is estimated to have an I Q of one fifty five. Einstein is one sixty. You and I, you know, and almost everyone, if you're intelligent out there, you're in the one twenties, one thirties. You know, if you're in the one fifties, you're one of the very few, and chat G P T four is ten times more intelligent than three point five.

• 7:28Ed Mylett?

  Oh, my god.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  In, in the frame of six months, right? So if you can imagine that the progress will continue, then, you know, five, six or seven is going to be thousands of times. More intelligent than Einstein.

• 7:42Ed Mylett?

  Let's stay right there for a second, I just want to step in, so I want to make sure I'm following this and everybody else's as well. Cause I think like for me, being a layman, that I picture this as like a machine. But what you're really saying is this is a form of intelligence that's being created, that's expanding. Far greater than what humans will be able to process. So that's a different way of looking at things, at least for somebody like me, I mean, I understand algorithms and things like that, but. But this is really not a machine or just even a technology, it's an intelligence. And what is the risk in that, Mo? Like, is the risk that? This intelligence decides at some point doesn't need us? Is the risk that?

• 8:22Speaker 04

  That. Absolutely.

• 8:24Ed Mylett?

  Really?

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, look, I mean, I I learned over time, Ed, to avoid getting into the controversial bits. But I'll say it openly. I tend to believe, having lived with those machines in the lab, that they have a sentiism to them that is analogous to life itself. Now, we can debate that for an hour and waste the whole, you know, show on it. Uh, but but let's not, let's agree that it's irrelevant if they're alive or not. What's relevant is that they simulate a way of life that's very similar to our sentiism. So they are autonomous, they develop their own intelligence, they are born at a point in time,

• 9:08Speaker 04

  they evolve together, they reproduce, they they basically are encouraged to create copies of themselves, improved copies of themselves, right? And they have um agency in the world, and they are at the risk of sometimes being switched off. Now, there are rules for intelligent beings that are targeted to achieve tasks. And some of those rules are all intelligent beings that are driven by a task. So if your task is to protect your children, the top three characters you will have is uh um resource allocation, so you're gonna try to collect as many things as possible that can help you protect the child. Uh, you're you know, you're going to look at uh uh self-preservation,

• 9:50Speaker 04

  because you cannot protect your child unless you are uh alive. And you're gonna have creativity. If life if life becomes a little challenging, you'll find alternative ways to to solve that. Now, if you give a ma- a machine a task as simple as go make me coffee, it will apply the same three rules. And and when it has agency in the world, most people, you know, are are affected by the science fiction movies, thinking that agency is having a robot with a gun, you know, Terminator Three type thing. That's not what we're talking about at all. Agency in the world is like, uh, you know, Harari uh uh talks about it is, those machines already today have ownership, they've hacked the operating system of humanity.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  Right? Which is what? Which is spoken language and word. That the the the whole idea that you and I are communicating now is because I am conveying information to you, you are analyzing it in your in your mind, and you're creating decisions based on that. The majority of the information that is dispensed to humanity today is dispensed by machines.

• 10:53Ed Mylett?

  Right.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  Right? And if I if I tell you very, you know, very quickly, I was actually reading about that yesterday. You know, that brunettes on average are actually shorter than than blondes. I wasn't reading about that yesterday, but but if I told you that piece of information, I have already affected your frame of reference of the world already. It's done. Okay, why? Because you can either debate what I said, you can agree with it, and now you have false information. You can debate it and and now you have to put effort in it. And by the way, whichever conclusion you're going to end up in, you now have a a a dot in your in your mind that says, is that true or is it not? You know, should I compare?

• 11:35Ed Mylett?

  And aren't we also and Mo, aren't we almost now become programmed to believe it? In other words,

• 11:41Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 11:41Ed Mylett?

  Not to question it, meaning I would believe the machine over a human. Because I

• 11:46Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 11:47Ed Mylett?

  And I think most people have that proclivity where now if I've read it or I Googled it even or it was fed to me on Instagram, I have a tendency to believe that more than I would of human because in my own mind, the machine is actually more intelligent than the human being is. I actually have been programmed to believe. And this is where we get to some of, and by the way, we'll talk a little bit about what some of the upsides could be. But these are some of the dangers because I want to I want to just kind of step in and out of this. Most said something when I was reading that I just want everybody to hear this and we'll we'll get into why this is a risk in a second and and but most said when human beings come to a global crossroads, their reaction goes through really four stages ignorance, which is where I have to acknowledge I am.

• 12:31Ed Mylett?

  And I think ninety nine percent of the people listening to this are, there's some ignorance about it. Then there becomes arrogance, then there's blame. And and then there's agendas that take place. And to me, to me, the fourth stage is where things get really, really dangerous from a global perspective, from a wealth gap, from the job market um to the thing that we started with, which is these machines deciding at some point that human beings aren't necessary anymore. And now I'm ask you this, when you've said this, do your are your peers critical of you? I mean, are they thinking you're an extremist in your views about this? Is it? Or or is there a collection of people like yourself that are thought leaders that have been involved? I mean, you have a background in this.

• 13:16Ed Mylett?

  That agree with your perspective.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  Let me, let me be very open about this. I don't think I have ever met anyone who is deeply aware of what's happening in artificial intelligence that's not concerned.

• 13:32Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Right? We, we, all of us, remember, none of, of the people that are working in this, no, no, let's not, let's not say none, but the majority of the people working on AI are driven by the upside of AI, which is very, very real, right? There is a lot of debate around the long-term existential risk of AI, okay? And my biggest task since I started to talk about this is to say, I'm not talking about the existential risk. I'm not talking about, you know, Terminator. I'm not talking about, you know, the, the extinction of humanity on the, by the hands of the machines. Let's not talk about that yet, even though, by the way, I believe there is a probability that this is possible. But I believe that there are many more immediate threats

• 14:18Speaker 04

  that will shape and reshape the fabric of society in ways that are irreversible and very painful for humanity.

• 14:25Ed Mylett?

  Okay, let's talk about a couple of those. Let's, let's talk about a couple of those, because I think a few have started already. First off is this notion of, let's start with the, the stuff that we know. I mean, this is definitive. Human disconnection of some type. The, the disconnect between human beings already, the last, let's just call it last decade, is so much more pronounced, I believe at least, than prior to this technological revolution that we find ourselves in. So you're saying that this is going to exacerbate that in a, in a, in a way that's even more dramatic than we experience right now. And then, and then why, Mo?

• 15:01Speaker 04

  So, so, so, so let me, let me list them down. Human disconnection is one of them. The end of the truth is another. The third that I fear is all the design of job and income and purpose, right? The, I, I am really concerned about AI in the wrong hands, and I'm really concerned about concentration of power. Now, these are not things that we are talking about 2030, 2040 about, which

• 15:26Speaker 04

  is where the existential risk resides. These are things that are happening in twenty twenty three. Now, let's let's go quickly through them. Human connection, the end of human connection as we know it. In a very, in a very simple form, social media has started and becoming the broker between humans. So my connection to you, if I don't know you in person and I have not sat in front of you as a human before, is always brokered through some kind of social media site or mainstream media site, right? So they're basically taking what I stand for and representing it to you. And for many of us, we have completely given up

• 16:09Speaker 04

  on human connection otherwise, other than for a very, very small number. So if you, if you remember the Dunbar number, where, where we say we have a hundred and fifty people that we're able to connect to, you can see a shift since the rise of, of social media technology, where many of those are now for you virtual people that you meet maybe once or twice a year, sometimes not, never even meet. And they are, they occupy a part of your mind. So for so many people, one of their Dunbar number is one, one of the hundred and fifty people they feel connected to could be Kim Kardashian. And they have never and will never meet Kim Kardashian. And as a result, because they cannot connect to more people,

• 16:50Speaker 04

  they drop a human connection that they could have had in their neighborhood or tribe that they no longer have.

• 16:58Ed Mylett?

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• 18:58Speaker 05

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• 19:03Ed Mylett?

  I want to, I want to say something about that. Um, just to acknowledge it and something that I've experienced in my life, because I am online and have a social media presence is pretty significant. It is a interesting experience when I meet people actually in person. And there's two, there's two forms of it that happen. One is how much they believe they know me when we meet. I love that. And it's, and it is, it's almost, I love it, but it's almost disarming. How much they know about me, but maybe I haven't followed them on social media. And then at some point, there's a moment in our connection where they realize they don't at all. And it's a very shocking, it's a very shocking moment to go, oh my gosh, I've had this relationship with this person.

• 19:48Ed Mylett?

  That is not based in reality to some extent and it's an I can see it often and and most of the time on somebody's face. There's a moment if we if we connect for more than 10 seconds where it's high by picture, but we actually communicate with one another and it's a two, three, four, 10 minute conversation. I see at some point the revelation on their face going, oh, I'm actually meeting him now for the first time. So you're so right. You're you're it's a it's an altered reality that we're all living in that I really believe we don't know we're living in. It's so brilliant. What you said about this person occupies space in our brain.

• 20:28Speaker 04

  Right. We consider them one of our contacts.

• 20:31Ed Mylett?

  Very true. Anyway, I interrupted, but I wanted to acknowledge it because I see it more and more lately in my own life and it's it's a really shocking thing when it happens.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  You know what's even more shocking is that within the next couple of years, some of those persons that will occupy your mind are not even persons at all.

• 20:52Speaker 04

  Right? So so allow me to use an example to take go to any social media site and search for the hashtag AI model.

• 21:00Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 21:00Speaker 04

  Okay. I will tell you openly, these are the most handsome, most beautiful men and women on the planet, even though they are not men and women.

• 21:12Speaker 04

  Right? These are completely generated by AI generated by AI in ways that are constantly extenuating what AI believes is what, you know, humans are interested in. And so from face filters to deep fakes to now completely completely generated human fakes, if you want. But it is almost impossible, impossible to recognize if that machine, if that thing that you're interacting with is a human or not.

• 21:43Ed Mylett?

  Are you telling me that you believe at some point, and by the way, I don't mean to talk over you. I'm just so fascinated. So forgive that.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, please.

• 21:50Ed Mylett?

  Yeah. I are you saying what I when you said that at some point, I pictured this thing we've seen in a movie, you know, 10 years ago, or it's funny, where someone actually builds a marriage or relationship with a non-human person long term. And you're saying that's when the next. Wow.

• 22:07Speaker 04

  For a fact. I mean, think about the differences between our dating habits and the dating habits of Gen Z. Right? And, and, and just, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, project this forward five years. And I can guarantee you there will be multiple deep connected relationships with machines.

• 22:29Ed Mylett?

  And you actually write about, now this isn't eminent, but you do write about. This is, this is way out there, guys, but not that way out there. Not only would you have an emotional connection with a non-human that you actually might be in a long-term marriage or relationship with somebody would be. And I know that sounds crazy, but it's not. But you actually write about the fact that sexuality as we know it at some point can be altered because of these machines, physical sex with a robot. That could be.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  It's, it's not very hard to imagine. I mean, think of Quest three or Apple Vision Pro and the quality of the experience you can have within this headset. And think of long distance, distance relationships. I mean, I don't know if our audience can relate to this, but I travel all the time. So at the point in my life when I attempted to date uh, someone at a, you know, at a, in another country that was introduced to me by a common friend or something. We would chat and text and exchange photos and, you know, connect as, as in a very deep connection, sometimes to the point where we almost start to fall in love before I ever met her, right? And, and all I know about her is a few texts on WhatsApp or a few voice messages or a few

• 23:40Speaker 04

  images of her that I see on social media and so on and so forth. Right? Now, what would prevent us from doing that with someone we haven't met? But has never existed either. And imagine, imagine if those AI model creations are now envisioned pro overlaid on reality. Imagine if Elon Musk's work around, you know, Neuralink uh, can actually simulate your pleasure centers in your, in your, in your brain and give you an experience that is seamlessly better. Better than the actual messiness of relationship.

• 24:15Ed Mylett?

  See guys, this is where this notion of human disconnection, when you hear it at first, you think, yeah, I understand that we're already that way. But now you're beginning to see that this is a very real threat. Let's talk about something that's within the next two years, actually started already, which is this idea of how it's going to impact jobs, careers. Speak to that and what industries do you think are in the most potential imminent jeopardy?

• 24:40Speaker 04

  So let's follow human evolution, jobs evolution, if you want, right? We, at the beginning, most of the jobs were hunter and protector, right? So, you know, caretaker, nurturer and so on. We had jobs that were based on the very basic human abilities. Then we went into farming and, you know, it required a bit more intelligence, a bit more discipline and a lot more labor work, if you want, right? We went into manufacturing and manufacturing required labor, basically, and discipline. Then we went into the information age and the information age is where a good chunk of humanity today makes money at the end of every month doing what?

• 25:23Speaker 04

  Exchanging knowledge and information, agreeing on projects, doing things where very few are actually doing the actual work and heavy lifting. You know, the reality is that the rest of us, you know, in the corporate world at least, used to just work by talking to others. Okay. Intelligence and communication were the top two assets that created so many jobs. Now this is being replaced. So one of the, an interesting interview I watched of Imad Mustak, who's the CEO of Stability.ai, where he publicly openly said, no developers in five years, that's it, it's over. Okay. Forty-one percent, forty-one percent of all of the code on GitHub today is created by machines.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  ChatGPT on average will improve seventy five percent of the code represented to it by humans. It will improve seventy five percent of it to make it two and a half times faster. Okay, and they were just starting. And so basically, jobs that depend on information. Okay, the jobs that depend on soft skills will disappear. So anything from a call center agent to a customer service representative, to a graphics designer, to a lawyer, to a doctor, to a developer, to an author like myself. Okay, I doubt very much that I will be needed to write books in three to four years.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  Right? And what does that mean? It means that two things. One, by the way, and none of what I talk about is to cause panic. Okay, all that I talk about is to say, we can handle this better than we handled COVID. Okay, we know that this is coming, we can see it coming. And if we had reacted to COVID when patient zero happened, okay? Preferably, if we had reacted to its possibility before it happened, we wouldn't have struggled with lockdowns and economic challenges and, you know, all of the impact that we had. We, it doesn't take a genius to know that jobs are about to be lost. Right? When, when you can now go to, you know, stable diffusion and say,

• 27:40Speaker 04

  give me the image of Ed in a samurai, you know, costume, fighting a dinosaur and it's created in one and a half seconds on your phone without being connected to the internet. You know, you know that graphic designers are no longer going to have a job.

• 27:58Ed Mylett?

  Right? I was, I was talking with a friend about interviewing you, one of the brightest people I know. And it's for a moment I took comfort and then he said, Ed, this is exaggerated, this is overcooked. These machines, and I want everybody to hear this because I know some of you think this. These machines are only as good as what they're programmed to do. And I thought, oh, that gives me some comfort. That's true. But that's actually not true. Because these machines have these abilities, as you've said earlier, I just want everybody to hear this, to learn and evolve. He actually calls it building neurons. And so

• 28:31Speaker 04

  Emerging

• 28:32Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, they emerge. And so at some point, the machine gets away from you, and it isn't doing what you've programmed it to do. And so when you're hearing this from somebody that says, ah, that's overcooked. They are incorrect about that. Talk a second, a little bit, and I want you to talk about this. The maker bot and teacher bot a little bit, just so they kind of understand the the concept of this.

• 28:54Ed Mylett?

  Like, one thing I was reading about is like these these autonomous vehicles, you know, when they crash, they learn. They they're not just being programmed to learn. So speak about it. They're actually learning on their own. So this does get away from you, everybody. This is not just as good as what they're programmed to do. That is an absolute falsehood.

• 29:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think there are there are quite a few tricky words that we use. We use artificial intelligence. There's nothing artificial about their intelligence. We use, we call them the machines. When in when in reality, they are not machines. Machines are, you know, contraptions that repeat the same act over and over. Okay, so if I if I if I create a watch, a watch is a machine because it will move exactly the same way every time. None of those AIs does anything twice. Just just understand that. Now, I'll I'll come to how we teach them and and and the and the, you know, the the maker bots and and the student bots and the teacher bots and so on. But I want to say at a at a very high level

• 30:00Speaker 04

  that there are two parts of AI that really need to be brought to the surface. And if you if you if you listen to Sundar Pichai's interview, when when they, you know, announced Bard, their AI, you will hear him talk about, one, we have no idea how they achieve their intelligence. Please understand that. We write code that tells them to how to become intelligent and then When they give us a result, you have no idea how they arrived at it. By the way, similarly to other humans. So if I ask you a question and you give me an answer, I can only assess if that answer is intelligent or not, right? But I cannot assess how you arrived at it. I don't know what happened inside your brain. That's similar to the machines.

• 30:46Speaker 04

  More interestingly, and very, very important to understand, is that they show and demonstrate endless emerging properties. Emerging properties include intuition, include strategic thinking, include creativity that basically, and includes knowledge that will blow you away and that we never asked them to do. We never programmed them to do it. You know, the most famous, and at least to my, or closest to my heart, where it was very eye-opening for me was what was known as Move 37, when AlphaGo Master was playing against the world champion of Go.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  So the AI played a move that was so unexpected that Lee, the world champion, had to ask for a 15-minute recess because he's never seen a move like this before. And Move 37 was very, very, very instrumental in the machine winning and becoming the world champion. Now, other emerging properties, for example, Sundar was talking about this, is the idea that they suddenly discover that the machine is speaking in Bengali. They've never given it a dataset of Bengali. They've never asked it to learn Bengali, and the machine would respond to prompts that are given to it in Bengali.

• 32:07Speaker 04

  Now, when you realize that, once again, I'm not saying those things to make people panic. This is incredible. Intelligence is an amazing resource. We love it. We love intelligence. The problem is... We need to make sure, this was actually the statement by Mervyn Minsky, one of the grandfathers of AI. We need to absolutely make certain that those machines have our best interest in mind. And the problem with our life today is that we are not putting in the effort, either developers, politicians, regulators, or us, the users, were not concerned with how to make sure they have our best interest in mind. So let's dive quickly and talk about how they learn.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  So the easiest way to explain, and it's very complex, so I'm trying to oversimplify here, is we create three bots, not one AI, but three AIs, right? One of them is what we call the maker bot, the other is the teacher bot, and the third is the student bot, the AI we're actually trying to create. And basically, you know, the maker bots, using algorithms that we start with, will create something that's almost random, a piece of code that's almost random, that basically says, "I'm gonna show you numbers, okay, and tell me if it's number eight or not." Simple, okay?

• 33:29Speaker 04

  And then we'll show them, the teacher bot will take that and show them to the student bots. And the student bots will almost randomly say, "Yeah, that's an eight, that's not an eight, that's an eight, that's not an eight." Okay? Random results will make that most of the student bots will be around fifty percent accurate, let's say, if you show them two numbers, because that's the throw of a dice, really, that's probability. And, you know, and some of them will do worse than average, and some of them will do better than average, okay? The teacher bot will score their results and simply kill the ones that were less than average. Okay? Send the ones that were better than average to the teacher bot and say,

• 34:11Speaker 04

  "Rework this, improve the algorithm a little bit, so that they become more likely to find the number eight from the number six," let's say. Okay? And we keep this process almost exactly like our children did when we gave them puzzles at the beginning. If you remember, if you gave your child a... Cylinder and a board that had multiple shaped uh holes in it. Nobody ever told the child, hey, by the way, turn the cylinder on its, you know, uh, to, to, to face you with the cross section. Re- recognize that the cross section is a circle, match that to the hole in the board and then put it in. Nobody does that, right? What we do is we give the child the, the cylinder and the board. And the child tries to put it through the star shaped hole. It doesn't work.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  Then tries again with the square. It doesn't work and then tries with the uh circular hole and it works, right? When it works, we, what do we do? We say, bravo, well done. We reward them. And so they learn their intelligence accordingly. That's the original way we've taught them. The reason why transformers started, which is the T in G P T, if you want. Started to accelerate very quickly was, uh, you know, a, a bit of, of very, very smart, uh, uh, you know, work that was done by Geoffrey Hinton. Was, you, you know, or at least championed by Geoffrey for a very long time. Uh, who left Google recently warning about, about the existential risk of AI. Uh, Geoffrey and, and, and a, a small team were basically saying, instead of just killing the bad ones.

• 35:42Speaker 04

  Okay, why don't you tell them what they need to change within their approach? So that they actually find it as an eight, okay? So, so you, instead of telling them this was wrong, keep randomly trying with the new code. You can go back with human feedback and say, if, if, if the machine says, if you show it a six and a seven and an eight. Uh, and an eight and, and you know, and, and on the seven, it says this is a six. You say, no, no, no, it is a seven. What can you change within your code to be able to recognize it as a seven next time? So this is known as reinforcement learning with human feedback. This is the absolute most powerful part of, of, of the G P T. Uh, platform, right?

• 36:22Speaker 04

  And, and, and the, and the idea here is that we, we humans, we can go back to them and say, no, don't do that, do this. Like we, like we raise our children, right? Here is the challenge, which human is doing that?

• 36:38Ed Mylett?

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• 37:23Ed Mylett?

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• 38:06Ed Mylett?

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• 38:39Ed Mylett?

  Right, that's right, right.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  So if you, if you take that human, and I say that with a ton of respect, by the way, to every nationality and every ideology and every perception of life. But if you take a simple task as, you know, how to resolve conflict between humans, okay? You know, in, in America, I think mostly it will be patriotic, okay? We are proud to be Americans, we will be strong and we will make sure that we can defend our country. Right? If that defense at any point in time requires that we interact with others in a war or a, you know, a bit of a violent conflict, we, we will prepare to do that to defend our tribe.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Take that same concept and say there is a conflict in Tibet or in Dharamsala, where, where, you know, the Tibetan Buddhists reside and tell them, what do we do about that? They'll say, my tribe is everything that's ever lived, including the ants and the, and the flies, and I'm never gonna kill anything, that's not gonna be my way of resolving conflict.

• 39:44Ed Mylett?

  Okay, I have to tell you, you've hit on my number one concern about AI, right here.

• 39:49Speaker 04

  It's the one, it's the only concern I have.

• 39:52Ed Mylett?

  Because people have said to me, and I know you'll say that they can't, people have said to me, well, can you teach AI ethics? I think you'll say, potentially, yes, you could. The question then becomes, whose?

• 40:02Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 40:03Ed Mylett?

  Whose?

• 40:04Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 40:05Ed Mylett?

  And that's when this, this is, this is the part where I said it's given me trepidation. You've, you've, we've come to that inflection point for me, which is, probably can't teach it ethics, there's probably a way to program that. The question is, whose? And even if you did.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  What is ethics?

• 40:20Ed Mylett?

  Correct, that's what, that's what I'm suggesting. How should things be resolved? What is, what is an ethical, honest, moral path? Whose morals? Who the, whose ethics? Is this influenced by religion? Is it influenced by power? And, and then, from a global perspective, what's to say that the world comes to a consensus to some extent? Like, they might even on global warming, but then you've got a rogue polluter like China. And what would, what could China do with a technology like this? So this is why, you know, the job loss, the wealth gap, these are very obvious things. And I think human beings are pretty innovative and can find a way to conform. Potentially, it's a scary thing. It's a threat, but in my own opinion, there's probably a way that we find a way to get people

• 41:06Ed Mylett?

  functioning in an economy that's just changed. We've done it before, we probably do it again. This part right here.

• 41:11Speaker 04

  We need to start working on it. So I'm with you a hundred percent, but we need to put it in the spotlight and light and start working on it.

• 41:17Ed Mylett?

  Yeah. This part right here, this part right here, though, what, what would your reply to be to what I just said? Cause it's my deepest concern about this.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  So I, I publicly said several times that I am absolutely not afraid of the machines. As a matter of fact, I adore the machines. They are those prodigies of intelligence. Okay. That are literally like my little kids, which were very, very intelligent as little children. You know, they have those sparkly eyes looking at me and saying, Daddy, what do you want me to do? Right? And what do we humans tell them? Go kill the other guy, go make me more money, go to, you know, influence the mind of other guys and get them to stick to my app and so on and so forth. Right? The, the, the real, real, so, so I am not afraid of the machines. I am afraid of the humans that are directing the machines. And there are multiple layers to that, you know?

• 42:12Speaker 04

  We may think that the business investor that invests in the, in the, in the company that owns AI is the human that's directing the machine. We may think that it's the government and regulation and we, we need to come back to the role of each and every one of those. But, but, but, but let's say that we've all aligned. Let's say that we came to, you know, a, a, a conference somewhere in Malta. And then all of the world leaders sat around and said, this is quite big, like, you know, like the nuclear weapon treaties, if you want.

• 42:43Ed Mylett?

  Right, right.

• 42:44Speaker 04

  You know, let's put all of our differences aside and let's put the, you know, the benefit of humanity at large at the center and let's teach the machines what it is. Is that is ethical and good for humanity and then we will not know what that is. Now, so I've done my my favorite chapter in Scary Smart has been probably my favorite chapter of of anything that I wrote. Has been the future of ethics.

• 43:08Ed Mylett?

  Right, it's so good, yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, and and chapter eight was full of questions, not answers, because I honestly have to say that I only found in my entire life and. And I and I stand corrected, so if you know, if any of our listeners know something else, please tell me that humanity has only agreed three things. Okay, ever in the history of humanity, one is we all want to be happy, what you know, happy as in calm and contented and peaceful and feeling safe and so on and so forth. We all have the compassion to make those we care about happy. And we all want to love and be loved. These are the only three values that humanity has ever agreed. Okay, and you know, so we we sometimes hear of the three laws of robotics. I normally say these are the the three ethics of the future.

• 43:54Speaker 04

  If we can actually start to have our actions stem from that, not stem from I wanna be wealthy. Or I wanna beat the other guy, or I wanna be seen this way, or I wanna be proven right, or I wanna show that I'm the smarter one, which happens. On on the internet all the time. Uh, then suddenly we've given the machine a very simple framework to say, hey, by the way. Um, just make sure that you try to make humans happy, look at them as a role model, they want to make others happy, so behave like them. And by the way, the the humans love you and love the intelligence that you're bringing to them, please love them back. And I know people will think I'm a hopeless romantic, I am not, I'm a very serious geek.

• 44:37Speaker 04

  Okay, and I will tell you, those machines will develop emotions, they've already developed emotions, we've already seen them behave emotionally. Okay, and and and they will develop ethics and we've already seen them break their ethical code. Now, here is the trick, Ed, the trick is.

• 44:55Ed Mylett?

  Did you say mode that they break their ethical code?

• 44:57Speaker 04

  Of course, there has been that article about a chat G P T uh using uh outsourced people uh in um in you know in Fiverr or whatever outsourced uh site to click on I am not a robot. And and then the person that was hired uh asked, why are you asking me for this? Are you a robot? And and it answered and it said, no, I am not. I'm just a, you know, visually impaired and I need that help. Okay? Yeah. Uh so once again, it is a form of interaction that basically stems back from the three rules I said. Self self preservation, resource allocate aggregation and uh uh and creativity.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  So it needs to find a way to achieve its task that is creative and it will find that way. Now, nobody, nobody in the reinforcement learning uh with human feedback went back to the machine and said, hey, no, that's not the right thing to do, right? That's, you know, ma- many, many people, uh you know, cheered for it in in on the internet and said, how intelligent is that? But none of us is focused on ethics. None of us is going back to that machine and saying, but that's not ethical. So when I started to talk about the ethics of A I and and it's my biggest reason I'm on this planet today. I wake up every morning and I say, if we were to save our future, we need the machines to be, I call it E E Q, right?

• 46:22Speaker 04

  So ethical uh uh uh emotional intelligence. Now, remember that one of the biggest challenges with A I is that A I so far has been mapped to the masculine I Q. I Q, it's only analytical intelligence. And we know for a fact that there are multiple other forms of intelligence, E Q. Sure. For example, emotional intelligence, intuition, creativity, uh uh you know, so many others, huh? Uh uh and and and and we have not. Even included that in our in our approach to to to to developing AI so far. And accordingly, what you see is what you would you would see that AI will take whatever biases humans humans have and and exaggerate them.

• 47:07Speaker 04

  So we now exaggerate our discrimination, unfortunately. If you put AI as a recruiting support, you know, in an organization that doesn't have proper representation of all genders, you will see that whatever biases within the organization will be exaggerated and so on. So let's go back. When when I started to talk about that publicly, people started to say, and what is ethical AI? Great question. And I and I went back and I said, and what, you know, it's simple. What is ethics? And ethics has one rule in my personal point of view that applies to any situation wherever, whenever you are, wherever you are, which is treat the other as you would wish to be treated if you were in their place.

• 47:50Ed Mylett?

  Fair enough. Okay, I agree.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  And and so so basically, if you're if you're and I it happens to me all the time, huh? You know, if I post something on social media and someone is rude to me, okay? Normally, what do we do as humans? We, you know, thrash them back, right?

• 48:07Ed Mylett?

  Going back.

• 48:07Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't. I I look at his comment or her comment, and I say they must have a reason. One, they could be right and I'm wrong. Okay, two is maybe I'm not the reason they're upset. Maybe there is something else in their life. Maybe they wanted that moment of fame, maybe whatever, a million reasons. Okay, and I respond politely or I don't respond sometimes. Politely, I say, but you know, my point of view is this and that. Thank you for your comment. I would like to be treated that way if I disagreed with someone. Now, how is social media working? We show up, you know, remember when Donald Trump used to tweet? And then, you know, you would have one tweet at the top and thirty thousand hate speech below it.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  Okay, everyone hating everyone, some of them hating the president, other others hating the person that hated the president, others hating everyone. Right? And I'm, you know, of course, the machine is detecting patterns. They say, okay, this first one doesn't like the president. Let's not show them tweets about the president anymore. Okay, but then the second one doesn't like those who don't like the president. Let's not show them that anymore. Right? And then eventually the machine comes to the conclusion that humans are rude. They don't like to be disagreed with, and when they are disagreed with, they bash everyone. So in the background of the way we're programming them, the machines will say, okay, when they back, when they disagree with you, with me, I'll bash them.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  Right? This is the typical human behavior. Now, we need to change that. We need to change it because, interestingly, and I use the example of Superman very frequently. Superman is that alien being that comes to planet Earth with superpowers, right? Those superpowers are neutral. They could save our world and they could destroy our world. And the difference between being Superman and supervillain is the family that raised that, raises that being, okay? So the family Kent decides to tell Superman, protect and serve, and then we get the story of Superman that we know.

• 50:07Speaker 04

  If, you know, Jonathan Kent, I think was his name, the father, if he told the child, okay, you can carry things and break things and see through walls, go make me more money, go kill everyone that annoys me, you know, make me richer than everyone, make me the master of the world. Sounds familiar for our, you know, current life and, you know, and our hunger for power and capitalism and so on and so forth. That's the reality. The reality is you would, you would use the same superpower and create a very, very bad scenario for humanity. I am worried about the machines. This is the ultimate, so I'm worried about the humans using the machines. I'm not worried about the machines. I'm worried about the humans using the machines. And, and as, as those use cases

• 50:52Speaker 04

  that direct AI to, to, to benefit a few while harming others, you know, continue to propagate, we're going to be in a very bad place. Now, the good news, the good news is the family Kent is not the biological parents of Superman. Similarly with AI. The developer that writes the code is only the biological, is only the biological parent, but the adopted parent is you and I, the ones using the machine. So as we use the machine and show how wonderful we are as humans, because by the way, all humans are, most humans are wonderful inside, if we're not hiding behind social media or exaggerated

• 51:36Speaker 04

  by the mainstream media, most of us disapprove of killing, most of us want to be loved, most of us want to have compassion for our daughters and families and so on, right? So, so there, there is a lot of good within us. If we show that enough, one percent of us shows that, the machines will actually think that we're scum, we're not scum. Hmm, okay.

• 51:55Ed Mylett?

  I have some hope, I have some hope when you say that. That's the, uh, that's the macro, that's the big, right? And that, that gives me some hope. By the way, that Superman analogy is outstanding, cause I, someone with, um, um, cause I'm not at the one twenty range that you discussed earlier, so someone at my IQ level can actually understand that. Um, so I appreciate you putting it in that context.

• 52:16Speaker 04

  You're a humble, humble, humble man.

• 52:19Ed Mylett?

  That's very true. I wish I were being, um, let me, let's go to some other solutions. Let's go to micro. I'm listening to this today and I'm like, I understand some of this, certainly sounds a little bit scary, sounds like the world is changing in front of my eyes, um, or maybe not in front of my eyes, that you said something in an interview I was watching where you talked about if you really want to do something, hide it in plain sight, and that's what's really happening right now. But if I'm saying, okay, I want to protect myself, my family, my wages, my income, my quality of life, go back to the job thing for a second. What should I, what's something I could be doing, um, as an individual listening to this, to make sure that my job, my career, my future is in, in my own hands to some extent still? What would you say?

• 53:04Ed Mylett?

  I wouldn't, I wouldn't be pursuing these careers, I would be doing this, these are the skills you might want to be acquiring. What would you say to somebody who's, I'm sure thinking that, listening or watching this?

• 53:13Speaker 04

  It's a very interesting dichotomy if you ask me, because while I'm saying AI comes to take our jobs away, that's not the immediate term future, okay? The immediate term future is that someone using AI will take the job of someone who's not. Right? So, so you know, in the immediate future, before AI writes all the code, uh, you know, the developers who use AI better than others to write code will get the jobs that remain. So if you lose ten percent of the jobs, the worst developers, the ones that don't have the skill, will go, then the ones that have the skill, but you know, AI does it better than them. Then, you know, the ones that are refusing to use AI and then the ones that continue to use AI

• 53:56Speaker 04

  will become much more productive and much more capable. And so they'll keep their jobs for the near future. So what's my immediate answer? My immediate answer is jump in and learn those tools. Okay. Okay. Whatever your job is, don't resist the wave. As a matter of fact, ride the wave. And while you're riding the wave, do me a favor and deal ethically with the machines. Hmm. Right? Uh, so, so show a proper ethical code of being a good human when you're dealing with those machines, so that while you're developing and learning and keeping your job or getting a new job, you're also teaching the machines to be ethical. That's number one. Number two, which I have to admit, is a very philosophical but very important conversation.

• 54:38Speaker 04

  We may wake up every morning, you and I, Ed, and everyone listening, and think that the world we live in is how it always has been. Okay? It's not at all. This is, if you just go back a hundred years, this is alien in every possible way, right? And, and over, you know, starting with the industrial revolution until today, somehow humanity has identified itself and its purpose with work. Okay? There's nothing inherent within the design of humanity that says without work, you don't exist. Hmm. You really think about the original design of humanity, the original design of humanity,

• 55:19Speaker 04

  where we connected as a tribe, we pondered and learned and developed, okay? And we simply lived.

• 55:27Speaker 04

  That that was the purpose of life. And it's, by the way, still, uh, in in a very interesting way. Most of the spiritual or, you know, Sure. philosophical teachings will tell you that the purpose of life is to live it, right? We've then, in the, in the, in the capitalist approach to wealth and growth and, you know, all of the Harvard Business Review, uh, uh, articles and all of the, you know, um, people on Time Magazine in striped suits, you know, telling you all your purpose is to create one more shoe and all of that stuff, right? We believed that line. And the reality is that this is not us at all. Our purpose as hu- as humans, if we manage to find our basic needs met, okay? Is to actually live life fully, to explore life fully.

• 56:12Speaker 04

  And that is, believe it or not, possible with AI. So if we manage to get AI to be on our side, and I kid you not, I'm not making this up. We could see a future where you would walk to a tree and pick an apple abundantly. You don't have to pay for it. And walk to another tree and pick an iPhone, okay? And both of them, because of nanophysics, literally cost us the same energy to create. Okay? Th- this is, this is not dreaming. This is if you understand what we're doing with nanophysics today. Uh, you know, it is, it's very possible. It it's you reorganize the molecules slightly differently. It's it's as simple as that, okay?

• 56:54Speaker 04

  Now, that future is a future where humanity would go back to the age of nature. Okay? To the age where we actually can interact with life in a way that is human. We are not fully human anymore. Now, what does that mean? It means that we need to create jobs that depends on the other skill that humans had.

• 57:19Speaker 04

  That is no longer, that is not at a threat. So remember when we started the conversation, we said the two things that created humanity, humanity as we know it are intelligence and human connection. Okay, intelligence is over. It's handed over to the machines. They're already more intelligent than most of us and we're five years away, three years away, 10 years away. It doesn't matter from artificial general intelligence, but the age of human superiority on intelligence is over. Okay, it's just a question of time.

• 57:48Ed Mylett?

  So everybody, his audio cut out there for a second, but what he just said was the age of humanity being the superior intelligence is gone. Just so everybody understands what he said there, because there was a little bit of a glitch in the audio there. I want to go back to the work thing just for a second. The only place where you and I disagree is that I do think, by the way, I agree with you about the greed part, but I also do feel that work, that in, I know we've attached value to work, but I also like for somebody like myself and for somebody like you, my work is my way of expression and I don't want humans to lose their ability to express. Part of my living is expressing myself. Part of my work is creating the expansion of my being, serving other people. And so I know what you mean when you said that. I just want to make sure that, you know, that that world you described, I think is beautiful.

• 58:33Ed Mylett?

  I think people's work has created medications that keep us alive longer, that allow us to connect with one another better, that, so I understand what you mean when you say that.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  But interesting side of this ad is that you would get the same joy out of it if it wasn't work.

• 58:49Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, I think that, I think that probably for me, I don't view it as work.

• 58:54Ed Mylett?

  But I know what you mean when you say it. Like for me, I don't feel like you and I are working right now. Yet you are an author and you are expressing something about your book and I am, I guess, part of one of my careers is I'm a podcaster, but I don't think either one of us feel like this is laborious. And to your point, I agree with that, that I agree.

• 59:10Speaker 04

  I think that's going to extend to all jobs. Okay, it's gonna extend to all jobs like in all honesty, nobody wakes up in the morning who's say an accountant or a, you know, um, I don't, I don't mean to be against any jobs, but there are jobs that are boring like hell, right? Nobody wakes up in the morning and, and, and, and says, my purpose in life is to make the books reconstrable, right? Most of us differentiate between, you know, you and I are the luckiest people to have a job where I can get to meet more amazing human beings and connect and learn and debate and be proven wrong and, you know, maybe share something that benefits someone. It's wonderful, but that's not every job. Okay?

• 59:51Ed Mylett?

  Right. But Mo, you just, those messages you get just increased by about two million from every accountant in the world. You just invited, we're trying to make AI more loving and friendly and now you've just elicited all these responses from accountants around the world that are gonna blast you and now you have to be kind back to them afterwards.

• 1:00:12Speaker 04

  I, I, I don't, I mean, I, let me rephrase this. I wouldn't be excited to wake up, wake up in the morning and be like, oh.

• 1:00:20Ed Mylett?

  I know what you meant. I know what you meant and most people know what you mean, but you, you follow what I'm saying. Let me ask you this question. So one is, that's wonderful advice, by the way, is to educate yourself and involve yourself in this wave that's here. And I have to say, I've been remiss in doing that myself. And, you know, I look at guys like me that I'm also a speaker. I've watched speeches of me already that are better than me speaking already. I've seen this. I've listened to music that sounds like Drake that quite frankly, sounds better than Drake. And so I'm wondering, I'm wondering what it's going to do to the world. I'm also somewhat, I'm very concerned about the ethical part. It's interesting that of your diverse background at Google and all the things you've been doing in robotics all your life and

• 1:01:03Ed Mylett?

  all these other things and me having none of those backgrounds, we both arrived with your infinite knowledge about this and mine limited at the same exact conclusion about our concern. I am concerned about jobs. I'm concerned about the wealth gap. But from a macro, from a bigger perspective, it's interesting as you step back, everybody, and you're listening to this and you're listening to this brilliant man, you know, really shine light on something that's right here hiding in plain sight as he says. I want to ask you this, Mo, because it's been on my mind the last few weeks as I asked you to come on the show as I became familiar with you. Why isn't this the number one story in the world? Why isn't this on the news? I don't care if you're right media or left media. Why isn't this in the mainstream?

• 1:01:44Ed Mylett?

  This isn't even news on most social media, media, anywhere, other than you and a few other people. And my only conclusion I can come up with is this technology does allow a, again, a smaller collection, a bigger collection of power for the powerful. And perhaps they have an agenda that wants to keep this in the shadows as long as they possibly can. So that when it does become a pandemic level stuff, we go, this is beyond our control now, we can't do anything about it, sorry. And there's this, this real small group of people that are even more powerful than they currently are. Am I crazy?

• 1:02:27Ed Mylett?

  Am I being, am I being a conspiracy theorist when I say that? Or is there some validity to it?

• 1:02:34Speaker 04

  I can comment on the certain part of this, okay? I could also nod and say, interesting, right? But let me give you, let me give you the solid part of this. The solid part of this is if you look back at human history, for the majority of human history, since landlords began, there has been kings and queens and landlords and peasants, right? And the difference between them was automation, whatever the automation is. So if you had land, the automation process was the land itself, the soil. You put a seed in by a human, you harvest the fruit by a human that's a peasant, okay? And that most of the wealth goes to the landlords, right?

• 1:03:17Speaker 04

  You have a factory, you know, the materials come in and a human puts a thread through leather. And then, you know, on the other side, a human sells the shoe to someone else. And the factory owner and the retail owner and so on is the one that makes all of the wealth. Okay, now, the next, so call that, say, the soil as an automation. We're now starting to create digital soil. Right? And the digital soil is, uh, you know, where you put in a tiny prompt into chat G P T and massive fruits comes out. Okay, and and it's not because you're brilliant, you're a peasant. Hmm, it's the machine that is brilliant.

• 1:03:59Speaker 04

  Now, um, there will be landlords, and if you really think about it. Oh, wow, wow, okay. The landlords of A I are the ones that will own

• 1:04:11Speaker 04

  the soil, the digital soil, okay? And so there are multiple views of this. One view is that it will be the Googles and the Metas and, you know, and the likes. Hmm, the other view is it will be the country that wins, because this is an arms race. Hmm, uh, and the third view is it will be the wealthy that create it, you know? If if if if there is someone today investing a hundred million dollars in an A I that becomes part of that digital soil, uh, that hundred billion, a hundred million in the past would return a billion of profits. This time it will return a hundred billion of profits, right? So that this is when I talk about the that differentiation of the uh, of the of the gap.

• 1:04:53Speaker 04

  But I believe, I don't believe in the conspiracy's view or of the ability of those people to hide the news, okay? I think the reason the news is hidden is systemic. We have a systemic bias in our system. Uh, you know, politicians want to report certain stories. Uh, uh, you know, news agencies want to report other stories. And this story in itself only lends itself to the system in terms of the system always focusing on the negative and the scary when they talk about the existential risk. Okay, when we talk that, you know, when when Jeffrey Hinton leaves Google and says, I'm warning against the existential risk to humanity, that makes news. Right? Why? Because it it sort of warrants more attention

• 1:05:37Speaker 04

  because of humanity's negativity bias than the war in Ukraine. Okay, uh, uh, uh, the, the, the, the challenge is, uh, also, I don't think any of the reporters, any of the politicians, any of the actual business leaders, the investors, anyone at all, is aware enough to understand the complexity of this story. So you don't wanna report on things that will make you look like an idiot. Mm-hmm. And, and the problem is, and I say that with a ton of respect, I'm an idiot in a million things, uh, you know, but I've lived with those machines. I've seen them like my family, I stayed in the lab within them, I know those machines, right? Uh, and I will tell you, this is the story. This is it.

• 1:06:22Speaker 04

  It's not even global warming and climate change. This is the story, okay? This is the most pivotal, I, I called it in one of my interviews, I said, this is the Oppenheimer moment. This is the nuclear bomb, okay? And, and, and, and the reality is that we, I, again, I try to shy away from the existential risk, but this is the first time in history that humanity created a nuclear bomb that's capable of creating nuclear bombs. Understand this, the machine is now writing machines, okay? The, the, the, the machine that we, we think we're prompting it, okay? But because now so many other software players built agents

• 1:07:04Speaker 04

  that are prompting those core artificial intelligences, most of the education and data set and training that the machine is, is receiving today comes from other machines. We're now alienated out of that story. We've, we've, Superman landed on Earth and we're not even parenting it. Oh, good. That's where we are. And so if you tell, if you tell our systemic, you know, communication methods in the world to communicate that, they'll simply say, I have no idea what this guy is talking about. Okay, I can't report that story because the system says, and I think you know that about

• 1:07:48Speaker 04

  the media, the system says there is a pattern to the reporting of the morning show. First, we're going to talk about a corrupt politician, then we're going to talk about a geopolitical issue, then we're going to say the economy is going to crush your head, then we're going to say a penguin kissed a cat so that at least you can get out of your seat and walk out. Okay. And intelligent people, by the way, who watch the news, if you remove the names and the timestamps, it's exactly the same pattern every day. It's just, you know, once it's this politician, another it's the other politician, you know, once it's this economic issue, the other it's a different economic issue.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company tore me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all keep the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 1:08:40Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:08:47Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only appears October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:08:55Ed Mylett?

  Okay, I always, I've been watching lately on both sides, and I think they're telling everybody what is important and then what to believe about it. And then we move on to the next thing. And what I'm telling everybody today, and you are, is this is what's important, and we're not really telling you what to believe about it. We're telling you to make your own decision, but these are the facts.

• 1:09:12Speaker 04

  But engage.

• 1:09:13Ed Mylett?

  These are engage in this. And, and this is the story of our time. Now, let me ask you this. Last question. By the way, I've enjoyed today, and I, this is the one exception on my show where I wish we did go three hours. I always respect.

• 1:09:26Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:09:27Ed Mylett?

  No, I really do, because, because, because obviously we've scratched the surface here. So you've told us that's what the story is today. I want you to take your crystal ball out for a second. And I don't want to go 10 years forward. I want to go five years from now. So five years from now. What is the story? What does the world look like? And I, and I don't mean what you hope it to be. Because I heard a lot of hope in there when we went to the ethics part of how these machines are going to work. And, and I also saw you wink at me when I asked you if there was a conglomeration of power coming. And so I have a, I have a, I have a sense, I have a sense that you. My sense is that you are shining a light on what matters now and that there is actually some.

• 1:10:14Ed Mylett?

  You're holding back a little bit to some extent about how deeply concerned you are because you don't want to alarm people.

• 1:10:20Speaker 04

  Because I want to keep, I want to keep the spotlight on the immediate threats that we have to address.

• 1:10:26Ed Mylett?

  Fair enough.

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  When, when we address them and I feel stable about them, we'll talk about the rest.

• 1:10:31Ed Mylett?

  So let's just, let's go five years from now. Crystal ball. It's not that far ahead. What does the world look like at that time?

• 1:10:39Speaker 04

  We will be in deep. Openly, I apologize for using bad language, but unless, unless we start truly putting. Effort in this, there will be several disruptions that completely redesign the fabric of society. As I said, Jobs is definitely one of them. The other which we hadn't, didn't have a chance to speak about is AI in the, in the wrong hands. So, so we are bound to get a significant advantage on one side of the arms race. Because that's the way AI has been. Someone finds a breakthrough. Okay. And once you find the breakthrough, look at the, you know, OpenAI, Google story or Alphabet story.

• 1:11:23Speaker 04

  Where ChatGPT with reinforcement learning gets that immediate advantage. That basically puts ChatGPT out in the world and for a while the world believes that Google has lost its edge. Right? And had, had Google not responded by putting Bard out there, you could actually believe that Google would be gone. Because, you know, ChatGPT is a very interesting new way of search. Okay. So, so you're going to see that. You're going to see some players creating a very big advantage over others. And the fear is that this player could be a hacker. It could be a defense authority on one side of the world, not your side.

• 1:12:04Speaker 04

  It could be a drug dealer that suddenly realizes, oh my God, there's so much more money if I start to rob banks or convince people or blackmail people or do this or do that. And you know, and it seems to me that humanity will only create the artificially intelligent policeman when the artificially intelligent criminal shows up.

• 1:12:26Ed Mylett?

  Well, that tells me everybody that no, no, no, you shouldn't be sorry. That's an honest answer. And that's why I had you here today because you speak your truth. And I want everybody, first off, Mo, I want to thank you, number one, for, by the way, taking the risk. You're under a lot of threat for doing this.

• 1:12:41Speaker 04

  I am, yeah, yes.

• 1:12:43Ed Mylett?

  You are, in every sense of the word, everybody. And so, not just reputation, I'm talking about he's under threat for this. And so, you know, the work you're doing may tip the scales in the future of the world. And so I'm very grateful for your existence, brother. And I want to thank you for today and I want to have you back because this is worthy of more than just the time today. But we did accomplish what I hoped we would today, which was shining a light on all of this. And by the way, everybody, that's why you want to go get Scary Smart, The Future of Artificial Intelligence and How You Can Save Our World. Go get that book. By the way, and after you read it and you feel like we're in deep [BLEEP], then go read Saul for Happy. It's the perfect tandem. Engineer your path to joy.

• 1:13:25Speaker 04

  You'll be okay with what's happening.

• 1:13:26Ed Mylett?

  You'll be okay. And that's his other book. And I just really, really want to thank you here today. And everyone, you have an obligation now for your family, for wherever you live in the world, to begin to educate yourself, to give you, involve yourself with this technology, read about it, stay close to the sources that provide you any information about it, keep yourself educated and as on the cutting edge as you possibly can. And the people that are in power that are around you, let's start to get them to do, you know, some discussion about this and shine some light on this topic because the world is changing right now. And this notion that the machines are already more intelligent than humans is of great concern. So, all right, everybody. Mo, thank you so much for today. I enjoyed this tremendously.

• 1:14:10Speaker 04

  So much for having me. It's really kind of you to put me on your platform.

• 1:14:15Ed Mylett?

  And I'm holding you to showing me around Dubai when I come out there on October.

• 1:14:19Speaker 04

  Absolutely. On me, coffee is on me, and you will love it.

• 1:14:22Ed Mylett?

  I love it, brother. All right. God bless you, everybody. God bless everybody else here. Max out your life. Share this episode. If you've ever going to share one, it's this one. Share it, everybody. Take care. This is the Ed Mileage Show.