MISSING: Trevaline Evans

A shopkeeper in North Wales seemingly vanishes into thin air after hanging a sign on her antique store saying she’ll be back in two minutes. Investigators search high and low for Trevaline Evans for decades, trying to track down a so-called “mystery man” in a suit who she’d been seen with in the days before she disappeared. But they find no trace of the 52-year-old grandmother. Her case becomes one police call the most confusing they’ve ever worked. And it becomes even more baffling when…nearly 40 years after Trevaline vanished…brand new tips roll in from two brothers in the UK who say they’d found her remains, and had proof. But those remains seemed to vanish too, leaving this mystery still unsolved.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ashley Flowers?

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• 0:45Ashley Flowers?

  So if price was ever stopping you before, you're officially out of excuses. Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimejunkie and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use my link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join. Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  And I'm Brett.

• 1:17Ashley Flowers?

  And you guys buckle the [bleep] up because I'm about to take you for a ride today. Brett, you know this. My famous last words are like, oh, you know, this case seems interesting. It could make like a quick mini episode because no one else has done anything super media. Yeah, yeah, there just might not be a lot there. Well, wrong again. Uh, this case out of North Wales is one that police have called the strangest case they've ever worked. A woman named Travleen Evans vanished into thin air in the middle of a busy town 35 years ago after being seen with a mystery man. And in 2019, two guys in North Wales got a tip about where her body might be.

• 1:57Ashley Flowers?

  And for the first time ever, we're gonna report on their full story. And we have the never-before-published photos that they say prove they found her.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Within twenty seconds, we're looking at a dead body right in front of us. It's exactly the place where the bad smell was coming from. There she is. I could see a face staring at me, um, with what appeared to be a hole in the side of the skull. I could see the hair.

• 2:28Ashley Flowers?

  And photos that show someone might still be trying to cover up a murder.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  They invited us back and asked us to have another look again with our camera. My blood ran cold. We were both in total dumbfounded shock at the realisation that the body that we'd seen in that floor had been removed.

• 3:20Ashley Flowers?

  It's just before midnight on Saturday, June 16th, 1990, when the North Wales Police get a call from a man named Richard Evans. He's worried about his 52-year-old wife, Trevaline, because she didn't show up to their dinner date that evening. She's still not home, and he tells police that he'd already checked the little second-hand antique shop that she runs just a few blocks away in case she was burning the midnight oil. I mean, it was tourist season after all. But even though her car was parked nearby, she didn't seem to be there. And hanging on the door was a handwritten sign that sent chills running through him. "Back in two minutes," it read. Now, signs like this weren't uncommon to see on the door, like it was something Trevaline often did.

• 4:03Ashley Flowers?

  She would tape them up when she was just, like, stepping out really quick. But Richard had gone by the shop earlier in the day, and that same sign was hanging there, "back in two minutes." And the last time he went by, late in the evening, he let himself inside through an unlocked back door and found more. Evidence that worried him. Her handbag, her keys, jacket, they were all there inside her shop. Things she'd normally take with her if she was gonna go anywhere for more than two minutes. I mean, even her makeup compact was sitting out in the open on the counter like she had just been there. I mean, every single sign seemed to point to her coming back. So that's when he phoned police. When officers responded to Richard's call, it seemed like they were thinking this might end like so many missing persons cases with

• 4:48Ashley Flowers?

  the person just showing back up eventually. But there's only one way to know for sure. So they start by trying to piece together Trevaline's movements that day. Except her husband actually can't help with that. He tells them that he and Trevaline had spent the earlier part of the week about an hour away in a town called Rudland, where they were renovating this little bungalow that they planned to live in once they retired soon. Trevaline headed back to their current place in Langoffland midweek to tend to her shop, while Richard stayed behind to keep working on the place. Now, that dinner that she missed was the first time they planned on seeing each other once like both of them had gotten back.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  And are we sure she ever actually made it back into town? I mean, I know her stuff's there, but did anyone lay eyes on her?

• 5:32Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so which is why I think maybe for a hot second, they're like, oh, she's gonna be back. I mean, her husband even makes a plea early on through the media directly to his wife for her to come home. He says he doesn't understand why she would leave. They were happy. But he doesn't seem to know what else to think. I mean, maybe he's afraid of the worst. Their police officer's son, who works a few towns over also, named Richard, I mean, he's looking at the situation differently right from the start. Like if she's gone, in his mind, someone forced her to leave. And he tells reporters that his mom would never leave town without telling someone. She had a business to run, an aging dad to care for, a grandchild, a ton of friends. She wasn't in any financial trouble. She wasn't having any medical problems.

• 6:17Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, truly, she seemed to be looking forward to retirement. He says there is no reason she would have to leave. And what's so confounding about this case is whether she left willingly or she was abducted, neither makes complete sense to me with what they end up learning through their investigation. Physical searches for Travellene turn up nothing. And I mean, these searches were extensive. In fact, it would become one of the most extensive searches in Northern Welsh history for the time. And by the end, they searched a 12-mile radius around the town. They even dragged the river, they searched a local canal. I mean, they're looking inside caves and mines.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 6:55Ashley Flowers?

  They knock on every single door in town, taking statements from hundreds of people and running down license plates on more than 650 vehicles. They also find Travellene's address book. And according to the Daily Post, who's reporting we relied on a lot for this episode, they call every number listed. And remember, it is tourist season in this picturesque little town. So there could be a witness out there who's already come and gone and didn't even know that they saw something important.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:22Ashley Flowers?

  So, police, thinking this, also go and collect records from every hotel and bed and breakfast in the area. And they contact more than 500 people on those lists, too. And while they never find anything physical in their searches for Travellene, they do, over time, collect a bunch of little puzzle pieces that, when put together, paint a picture of her last movements. But exactly when she put that "be back in two minutes" sign up, where she went after, and who she met, becomes an even bigger question. Because a few people did see Travellene the day she vanished. And they say she wasn't alone. So let me start with the timeline, from the first full day that Travellene was back in town.

• 8:07Ashley Flowers?

  This is Thursday. At about 9:15 in the morning, a local woman says that she sees Travellene unloading her car near her shop on Church Street while speaking to two men. There is a gray-haired man in a suit, someone maybe in his, like, 50s with a briefcase. Everyone calls this guy the "smartly dressed man."

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Very proper.

• 8:26Ashley Flowers?

  Yes, but the witness also said that there was a young man across the street who was, like, locking a gate at another shop. And Travellene seemed to be speaking to him, too. That's really all we know from Thursday. So then, fast forward to Friday, this is the day before she goes missing. There are more sightings of her, and possibly more sightings of these two men. According to a crime watch special on the case, a couple of local shop workers see Travellene in the morning, walking down the street with this same smartly dressed man in a navy blue suit with a black briefcase having a conversation. Everything seems fine. Travellene's even like waving to people that she knows. At 9:30, the Daily Post has somebody putting her by this like tannery shop

• 9:08Ashley Flowers?

  near her store with the same smartly dressed older man. Then, at 12:30, she and this same guy are seen together in town on Oak Street. And Oak Street is like a four-minute walk from her antique shop. Then we have them together again at 4:00 PM on Market Street, which is right there in town, too. Like Oak Street where they were earlier just like turns into Market Street when you cross Castle Street.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:33Ashley Flowers?

  And actually, Castle Street is the next sighting of her. So at about 8:30 that evening, two locals were driving home down Castle Street. And when they stopped at a light, they saw Travellene standing on the stoop of this shop. And they said she was like holding some papers and was like poking her head out. She kept like popping in and out of this little stoop. Seems like she was waiting for someone to come walking down the sidewalk. But they didn't see anyone, even when they looked behind them. And the woman in the car said that Travellene normally would wave to them or something, but she never even seemed to see them. And so she didn't acknowledge them. She seemed just super preoccupied in waiting for whatever or whoever it was she kept looking for. Now, that same evening,

• 10:16Ashley Flowers?

  some tourists who were in town just for the weekend tell police that they see Travellene with the same smartly dressed man at a place called Gail's Wine Bar, which is just one street over from where they were seen together earlier in the day. And it's just around the corner from where that couple just saw her like popping in and out of the stoop. I mean, it's like a two to three-minute walk to Gail's from there.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Okay, so like all really in this like small, local area.

• 10:40Ashley Flowers?

  Very close. Now, all the sightings prior to the wine bar seem to come from locals. So I think police take those a tad more seriously. And they actually only get this wine bar sighting after that crime watch episode airs, like weeks out from when she went missing. So I'm not saying they Don't believe it. I just don't know how much they were able to follow up on it and what people would remember even if they did all those weeks later. But you know, like, I was thinking to me, it sounds like Travellene was waiting for someone to pick her up in a car. Like, if you look at this on a map, this corner is at this big intersection where you would stop. And the side that she is on, I mean, I guess either side you could pop in.

• 11:21Ashley Flowers?

  But to me, the way she's like in and out, in and out, it's like you can't miss the car, right? Because like if the light turns green or something, or even if it was a green light, you got like two seconds to pop in. There's something about it to me that's like, okay, was she waiting for someone to pick her up less like meeting somebody on the sidewalk? Was it the smartly dressed man who picked her up? I mean, if the sighting at the wine bar is accurate, I would think it had to be.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:45Ashley Flowers?

  Also, it seems most likely since we know she's spending so much time with this guy for like so much of Friday.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say, he's in all of these sightings, but he's just known as the smartly dressed man, like none of the witnesses.

• 11:58Ashley Flowers?

  No, not even the locals.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  And this is still when her husband is out of town, right?

• 12:02Ashley Flowers?

  Right. So, this brings me to Saturday, June 16th, again, 1990. Sometime that morning, a woman who owned a local market told police that Travellene came in to buy some milk. And something small she noticed is that when Travellene opened her little purse, and when I say purse, think more like tiny wallet than full bag. The shop owner said that she saw a stack of cash. Now, Richard and police found her actual like big purse handbag in her shop. And some reports say that money she'd had earlier in the day has never been found. But like, don't spiral just yet, though, there might be an innocent explanation. Now, it seems Travellene made it to her store, opened up the shop like normal, because that morning, more than two dozen customers come in and out of the antique shop.

• 12:47Ashley Flowers?

  Even a friend stops by to bring Travellene some fresh flowers sometime before noon. And this friend says like, everything seemed totally normal. They chatted a little bit, they had coffee, they even made plans to have a girls' night the next week. And it is after that friend leaves when the mystery really begins.

• 13:08Ashley Flowers?

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• 13:51Ashley Flowers?

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• 15:14Ashley Flowers?

  A couple tells investigators that they were in Trevaline's shop shortly after her friend left, and they saw Trevaline like huddled in conversation at the back of her store with a man who matches our smartly dressed mystery man description. I don't know what they were talking about, or if the couple could even hear anything, but they don't report anything else wild. They say they leave the shop, and then the next thing we know for sure is that sometime between 12 and 1, Trevaline's brother stopped by the antique shop and found the door locked and that "be back in two minutes" sign on the door, the one that Richard would discover later that night. Now, one article I found mentioned that this brother made two stops at the shop, like some 20 minutes apart, and the sign was up both times.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  And that wasn't a red flag to him?

• 16:02Ashley Flowers?

  No, so like Trevaline had this slogan for her store. It said, "I'll buy anything", and she really meant it. So it wasn't weird for her to head out in the middle of the day multiple times a day to go meet someone for a sale, or to scout out items that she could buy, resell, whatever, or even just to leave for lunch. From what I can tell, it seems like she was the sole owner-operator, so there's like nobody else to cover.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:23Ashley Flowers?

  So totally possible that he could have missed her twice. And I say this because right about the same time as the second visit, so this would have been about 12:40, we get a really firm sighting of Trevaline. A passerby sees her locking up her shop, key in hand, I mean, if she had anything else on her, like a purse, whatever, it wasn't big enough for anyone to notice. And they say she's heading in the direction of the town center, like where all of those sightings were the day before. And then someone in town says that right about that same time is when she stops by the local market and she buys an apple and a banana. Now, there is about a two-hour window where no one reports anything, sightings or interactions,

• 17:04Ashley Flowers?

  in her store or out. And then at 2:30 PM, this woman who is familiar with Trevaline says that she spotted Trevaline near her own house, like Trevaline's house, which, same as everything else, like we're still within walking distance. I mean, if you're looking at a map, basically you have like her shop on the right, you have the town center in the middle, and then her house is just a little to the left of town center. Now she doesn't see her go in or out of her house. She's just walking right near it, heading back in the direction of town and the direction of her shop.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Alone?

• 17:36Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, she's alone at this time.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  So do we think she's just like in and out of her shop a ton that day? Or is this back in two minutes just like her BRB sign? Like, I'll be back at some point. Two minutes doesn't really like discourage customers. Like, it seems like a short amount of time.

• 17:52Ashley Flowers?

  So this is what's so interesting to me. Well, two things, actually. So first, she had other signs that she would put up if she was going to be gone for longer. Like, be back in a half hour, back in two hours, stuff like-

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Oh, so like the two minutes is like specific for this situation?

• 18:06Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so if she went back, she could have like quickly hung another sign to say that she was going to be out longer. But she didn't. And it's not like something happened to her in two minutes after she left, because we know she's like fine and well at 2:30.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  So she didn't come back?

• 18:21Ashley Flowers?

  Well, this breaks me into my second thing. Interestingly, the police find something that maybe indicates she had made it back to the shop at some point after her 12:40 trip into town to buy fruit. There is a banana peel in the store's trash can.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Like a fresh banana peel?

• 18:41Ashley Flowers?

  Well, it's not fresh by the time they're seeing it. Like, she's not even reported missing until like 10 hours after she purchased it. The shop is searched after that. So was it the same banana peel? Can't tell you. I mean, people spend a lot of time pointing to this as a sign that she made it back to the shop. But I'm like, then where's the apple? Like, nobody talks about the apple.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:02Ashley Flowers?

  Not even mentioned. So I'm assuming it was never found, but I don't know. And like, did they find the banana peel in her store, but the apple or apple core was in her house? Like, there's never been any reporting about them searching Trevaline's house or what they found if they did.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and kind of like without the apple, the banana doesn't mean anything.

• 19:20Ashley Flowers?

  Not to me, yeah. So all that to say, a lot of people think she came back because of the banana, but like, I think that might just be a red hair. Now, this 12:30 sighting is regarded as the last confirmed sighting of Trevaline. So what could have happened to her in the six-minute walk between her house and her store on a bustling Saturday afternoon in a busy town center? Well, maybe some of the unconfirmed sightings can point to that.

• 19:50Ashley Flowers?

  Reporting in the Leader says that five minutes after she was leaving her house, walking in the direction of her shop, a woman matching her description was seen walking on the main road right off of Market. It's called A5. But this woman is walking in the opposite direction, like heading away from town. And then someone matching her description is seen again around 3:45, even further down A5, farther away from town.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  So if that sighting is true, she could have walked away.

• 20:18Ashley Flowers?

  Sure, but I mean, literally walked. Because she left her stuff behind, including her car, which would have gotten her a lot farther, a lot faster. And there's one more unconfirmed sighting that will probably make you realize why all these last ones are unconfirmed. A woman says that at 4:00 PM on Saturday, she might have spotted Trevaline inside her store, possibly with a man, but she only caught a glimpse in the store, so she can't be 100% sure of anything. So police end up not really considering this a fully credible sighting. But if it was her, if there was a man,

• 21:00Ashley Flowers?

  it actually might have been the younger man, if you remember him.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Oh, the one at the gate at the other shop?

• 21:06Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so all the sightings Friday and early Saturday were of the older, smartly dressed man. But just before 6:00 PM, there was a woman driving past Trevaline's shop, and she said that there was a younger man in a trench coat, standing outside the antique shop, looking suspicious. And she thinks, thinks maybe, that the door to Trevaline's shop was open. Now, to be clear, we never get a sketch of this guy, and nobody says that he's the same younger man as the one from two days before. Like, to me, it's just, it's odd.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  And you said the store was locked when her husband found it, right? Or like, the front door was locked, at least?

• 21:42Ashley Flowers?

  Right, and he didn't even have an extra key. He only ended up getting in because he went around to the back where that door was open.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Which, by the way, that's kind of a red flag, right?

• 21:50Ashley Flowers?

  It seems like it to me. Like, if you left your antique shop unattended, and you're gonna take the time to lock up when you leave...

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Like, lock up when you leave, then?

• 21:57Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. Like, I keep having... This gnawing feeling that maybe she did make it back to the shop and then something happened there. Maybe the banana peel really is the one that she bought at lunch. Maybe that's why her compact was out and open like she was touching up like she got interrupted. Something happened and she was taken out the back. And maybe the back in two minutes sign was put up because it was just the one that was sitting out and someone just like threw that sign up because it was right there in her handwriting. Like they were just trying to buy themselves some time. And I don't know, there's just a lot that doesn't add up if Trevaline just walked away. Which is maybe one of the many reasons why pretty early on, police openly say that they suspect foul play.

• 22:42Ashley Flowers?

  And they say something really specific to a reporter with the Daily Post in November of nineteen ninety one. A senior detective says that he believes she was abducted and murdered, possibly after getting into a car with someone she knew. I don't know where the car thing comes from. I think there's loads about this case that have never been shared. But there is one other report I can maybe tie this back to. I didn't include this in the timeline, even with the other unconfirmed sightings, because those at least were reported and then re-reported a few times. This one I only found one time in an article from the Daily Telegraph dated July thirteenth nineteen ninety two. And this one says that after she was seen walking away from town, so this would have been that two thirty sighting.

• 23:27Ashley Flowers?

  Or maybe the three forty five, but more likely the two thirty. After that, two people saw a woman who they say looked like Trevaline in the passenger seat of a car, leaving town. And at least one of the people who saw this said that the woman looked upset. So that's what we know.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:45Ashley Flowers?

  Let's talk theories. What happened to Trevaline? What and who kept her from coming back in those two minutes? Well, the obvious place to start is with the mystery man.

• 24:00Ashley Flowers?

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• 24:43Ashley Flowers?

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• 25:52Ashley Flowers?

  Police soon begin to wonder if Trevaline met with foul play at the hands of the smartly dressed man. Because try as they might, they could not identify this mystery man. So why wouldn't he come forward unless he had something to hide?

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:08Ashley Flowers?

  Which, by the way, it's not like this story was easy to hide from. Local news outlets were all over this, and then you had Crime Watch come in and take the story to an even bigger stage. So in the first year, this mystery man's sketch was everywhere.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  And still, nobody comes forward to say like they even know who he is.

• 26:27Ashley Flowers?

  Well, he just doesn't come forward. I mean, they get plenty of calls from people who think that they might know the guy's identity. I mean, at least one person suspects that it might be this other antique dealer who was in town that day, which honestly would make so much sense. Like, we know she often goes out to buy antiques. We know she had money on her that day.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, like maybe she just had sold something or was about to purchase something.

• 26:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. It seems like the most logical solution. But all the names of antique dealers that they get put forward to them, like they're able to quickly look into and rule out.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Which I kind of don't buy the dealer thing. Like, if this guy was just there to sell her something, why would he have hung around with her for like two days? And like, what, the goal is to take that wad of money she was carrying with her on Saturday? Like, why so long?

• 27:13Ashley Flowers?

  Or maybe there was like something from her store and he's trying to like get her comfortable, maybe he was a buyer. I don't know if there was ever like a full inventory of the items that she had in stock or like things that she was expecting. So I don't think we have specific things missing or anything. Like, again, this is just a possibility. And one that police really buy into for a while. I mean, a bunch of news reports have them saying that they think the smartly dressed man could be in the antiques world. And they even imply that the way he was dressed had to have had him there on business because one detective told a paper, like, I mean, think about it, it's Saturday, most people have this day off, why is this dude still in a suit with a briefcase?

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Unless he's like there conducting business.

• 27:52Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. But they go through that world pretty thoroughly and they don't find this guy. So, mystery man... Probably not in the antiques world after all.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  So, call me cynical, which you do a lot.

• 28:05Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, obviously.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  But-

• 28:07Ashley Flowers?

  Cynical crime junkie is like the same thing.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  But isn't an affair like an equally likely possibility? Her husband's out of town, she's seen around town with this other guy who like-

• 28:17Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  I don't know, he's not running to the police to give his story. It just like has me very side eye.

• 28:22Ashley Flowers?

  The rumor mill in this small town is definitely churning. And it seems like there was some gossip that maybe Trevaline was having an affair, or affairs plural. But police never speak on this publicly. I mean, people are actually quite careful in news reports to just say that she had a lot of friends, both male and female, like that's it. But let's speculate for a second. What if she was having an affair? And what if she was seeing this man while her husband was away, working on their retirement home? Something went south, Lord only knows what, but police keep calling this a murder investigation. So let's call it what it is. Was he from out of town? Like, it's wild to me that nobody would have seen this man before with her.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:03Ashley Flowers?

  Like, just in the couple of days leading up to her disappearance. Okay, fine, maybe. But they have never tied this mystery man to a lover. And also, like, this woman is everywhere with this man. Like, if this is an affair, she is not hiding it.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Right, like, she's seeing people who know her that are like saying, oh, she usually would have hit, like, she waved, she usually would have waved, like, we know this woman.

• 29:24Ashley Flowers?

  They're out and about on town together. Like, something about this man being a lover just doesn't feel right to me.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  I mean, unless she was just totally checked out of her marriage. I mean, if she's planning on running off with this guy before Richard comes back into town, maybe who cares who sees you? Maybe you're leaving breadcrumbs for your family, so like, they don't have to wonder where you went, or if you're by yourself, or whatever.

• 29:46Ashley Flowers?

  But then take your stuff with you, right?

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:48Ashley Flowers?

  Make a phone call when they don't get the hint and your story is national news.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:53Ashley Flowers?

  And for those who know her, leaving them without answers is the part that doesn't add up more than anything else. Like I said, I mean, for the first few years, like, her son, Richard, was adamant that his mom would not have left on her own.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  First few years, did he end up changing his tune?

• 30:07Ashley Flowers?

  No, so tragically, like, nine years after she- She went missing. He actually died of a heart attack. I mean, he was really young, 37.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 30:14Ashley Flowers?

  But one of Trevaline's brothers, Len, he's been really vocal in her son, Richard's place. He doesn't see a world where his sister just up and leaves without a word. And listen, I came into this case fresh off of listening to, there's this podcast called The Vanishing of Janice Rose. So like, I had a really solid example of what leaving a life looked like. And all the people left behind who swore like that you never would. But I mean, it could be the case here. Like, what do they know? Like?

• 30:41Speaker 01

  I mean, might not be anything more than we do. Even though it's always a possibility that she ran off without taking anything with her. Statistically, it's not probable. Like, it's so unlikely.

• 30:52Ashley Flowers?

  So then, did Mystery Man kill her?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  To me, that's the only reason that he wouldn't come forward. He's either with her, or he did something to her.

• 31:02Ashley Flowers?

  Or he helped her get away? Listen, this is like a little fringe. I'm literally like making up as I go. But there are like some weird pieces to this that I don't think get enough weight. So for 10 years, they're looking for Mystery Man. They get nothing. Trevaline just poof, vanished into thin air. But then something weird happens. In 2001, police formed something like a little task force to reexamine this cold case. One room, 10 officers, all dedicated to tracking Trevaline's movements in the three days before she vanished.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  That kind of sounds like writing a Crime Junkie episode.

• 31:39Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. And from this, they drop a bombshell. They say the sketch of Mystery Man should be ignored.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  What?

• 31:50Ashley Flowers?

  They give us nothing as to what happened. Why the sketch is wrong. What about it is wrong?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Just like, just kidding, disregard.

• 32:00Ashley Flowers?

  Well, yeah, here's what's so weird. Lots of people will talk about this case in a way that implies Mystery Man is no longer important. But that's not what I read. Nobody says he's not involved, or he's no longer important to the case. They just say that the sketch is inaccurate.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  I have a list of follow-up questions because they had so many witnesses.

• 32:24Ashley Flowers?

  I know. So was the sketch just wrong? And a decade on, they don't have much hope for witnesses giving them something useful? Or did they ID him, but he turned out to not be important? And again, to be clear, that is not what they're saying.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Wait, they're not saying anything.

• 32:41Ashley Flowers?

  You're right. But many years later, when the documentary In the Footsteps of Killers is produced, or they do a single episode on this case, a woman named Linda is interviewed. And she says that shortly after Travellene went missing, she began dating one of Travellene's brothers, Phil. They were together for like five years following the time she disappeared. And when she's being interviewed, she's like, I don't know what all this mystery man talk is all about. That man, that sketch is without a doubt her brother Phil.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Wait, what? I'm confused.

• 33:14Ashley Flowers?

  Girl, me too.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  How would no one know it was her brother?

• 33:19Ashley Flowers?

  So Travellene has two brothers, right? Len and Phil.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 33:23Ashley Flowers?

  Len lived in town, but Phil traveled for work a ton, apparently. So locals probably wouldn't recognize him.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Mystery. Got it.

• 33:30Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but in an article I found, it says that he was in town that week from Switzerland. And listen, the side-by-side pictures of them are interesting.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Oh, uh, that's the same man. Yeah. Okay.

• 33:46Ashley Flowers?

  And in every picture that this ex is showing in that episode, Phil is in a dark suit jacket.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, this makes sense to me. She's all over town with this guy, doesn't really add up for a secret love affair, like.

• 34:00Ashley Flowers?

  Nothing to hide if it's your brother?

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's nothing to hide if it's just your brother. So if it's true, she could have walked away.

• 34:07Ashley Flowers?

  The problem I have, though, with this, okay, it's Phil. How is this not confirmed? Like, Phil had to have heard about mystery man. He had to have mentioned to police all the times that he saw her when he was in town, if that was him.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Because that would be like very, very solidly confirmed sightings. Because like, her brother is with her the whole time.

• 34:28Ashley Flowers?

  Right. Like, like in my mind, I'm like, again, Linda's like, oh, this is for sure her brother. And I'm like, I feel like police would know that. So. Is this terrible police work? And also, her brother Phil is living under a rock? Or, my only third option for mystery man? What if she didn't leave with him at all? What if he just helped her leave? And listen, I'll admit, this one is the most far-fetched. But if mystery man is Phil, and this wasn't the most bungled investigation of all time, that is the only thing that makes sense to me. The only reason he would be the guy who's seen with her over and over for days, but then not admit it, is if he knows where she is, or is hiding her, or helped her, or something.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  And is like protecting her by not saying anything?

• 35:15Ashley Flowers?

  Yes? Question mark? I don't, you know what I mean? Like, it's the only thing that, like, it's the only way Phil makes sense to me.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Okay. Where's Phil now? Can't police just talk to him?

• 35:25Ashley Flowers?

  No. Phil is, Phil's dead now.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Okay. I only have more questions.

• 35:30Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  If it was him, if she did leave willingly, whether he helped her or not, what's the why? Like, why is she walking away from her whole life? Like, with his help or without it?

• 35:40Ashley Flowers?

  There's no good explanation for that. I mean, all of the reporting talks about her being in this happy marriage. She just opened this shop within like the last couple of years. She's planning for retirement.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a new little house.

• 35:51Ashley Flowers?

  New grandbaby. On paper, life is 10 out of 10. But, the other bombshell that Phil's ex dropped in that "In the Footsteps of Killers" episode, is she says none of that is true. That Travellene wasn't happy. And she says that Richard wasn't all that nice of a guy. So, I don't know, maybe now that her son was married, had a family of his own, she wanted out while she still had some life to live.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  But just get divorced.

• 36:21Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, it seems like a way easier solution if that's what she wanted, but maybe it wasn't an option. Or maybe she just didn't want to go that route.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Barring a situation where she was afraid of Richard, I would think that she'd want to take some stuff with her to start over. Like, money, her car.

• 36:37Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, maybe she had someone else who was helping her. Allah Phil, or a lover who is or isn't our mystery man. Or maybe she'd been preparing for this. I mean, remember, so there were those rumors of an affair, or multiples of affairs in town or whatever. Well, in the "In the Footsteps of Killers" episode, they actually talk of at least one affair like it is a sure thing. And they say that they learned she had actually gotten an inheritance of like 10,000 pounds from a man that she'd been having an affair with who passed away. Now, I don't know when that was, or if that money was still accounted for, but like, if true, pretty interesting in my book.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that does kind of change things.

• 37:21Ashley Flowers?

  But again, I think the part of the reason I'm like, was it, is because it doesn't seem to change things for police. They say Travellene was met with some sort of foul play at the hands of someone she knew, which makes me go back to, did they do a terrible job the first time around? Either ignore this, or not dig deep enough to learn this? Or maybe, like I said before, maybe it's not that interesting as the documentary or the episode presents it to be.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  So if this inheritance thing is real, I imagine Richard had to have known about it, right? Like, I can't imagine that went over well.

• 37:55Ashley Flowers?

  He might have. I mean, maybe that's why he seems so willing to accept that she just left. I mean, Richard consistently is the one who talks to Travellene in early news reports, like, as though she's alive, asking her to come home, implying that she left on her own, while her son and her brother, like, don't even seem to entertain the idea. But if you believe that, if Richard believed that she left, if he knew, like, why not allude to the fact that she had a reason to go? Instead of saying that you guys had, like, this great, happy life, happy marriage, or whatever.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  I mean, to save face?

• 38:27Ashley Flowers?

  Maybe, but there's another reason you do that, too. If you want to divert attention. Which brings me to theory number three. What if Richard did something to his wife? Going back to 2001, after they brought that group of investigators together, this is the same time that they said the sketch is inaccurate, they also arrest Richard.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sorry? You could have led with that?

• 38:53Ashley Flowers?

  Well, I'll tell you why I didn't. According to the BBC, after some questioning, Richard is released that same day without facing any charges. Police never call him a suspect. They also never explicitly say that he's cleared. The only official statement we could find is that, according to the BBC, they released him, quote, "pending further inquiries." And if they ever questioned him again, it, again, didn't result in any charges. Now, the timing sure feels suspect to me.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you can see my face.

• 39:25Ashley Flowers?

  Like, hey, this picture we said was so important for a decade.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Forget about that.

• 39:30Ashley Flowers?

  Probably not accurate. Husband is arrested. The timing feels calculated.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  To me, at least. It feels very like hint, hint, wink, wink. This is the direction we're looking without actually saying anybody is officially anything.

• 39:48Ashley Flowers?

  I can't put words in police's mouth. I can only tell you what they did.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:52Ashley Flowers?

  Because they never say anything about Richard. And I don't have access to the police files. So I can't tell you what they were thinking or even like, I would die to know what came of the questioning. Or like what questions they asked.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, to be a fly on that wall.

• 40:05Ashley Flowers?

  And listen, I have zero evidence backing this up. But I wonder if in 2001, like, could they have talked to Phil's ex for the first time? Like, it makes sense to me that she would have never been spoken to early on because it seems like they met right after Travellin went missing.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Right, she didn't know Travellin.

• 40:21Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so day one investigators miss her. Even people a couple of months on are like, oh, like, why would this new girlfriend who wasn't even around have anything? Like, just skip her.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:30Ashley Flowers?

  But if she got in touch with investigators 10, 11 years on and started telling them things. The two bombs that she drops in that episode would explain to me the exact two things that happened, right?

• 40:41Speaker 01

  1,000%.

• 40:42Ashley Flowers?

  Bomb one, she says, I think Mr. Man is Phil.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Picture gone.

• 40:45Ashley Flowers?

  And then bomb two, I didn't tell you the whole thing. Yes, she said that their marriage wasn't great, whatever, whatever. She also said that sometime after Travellin disappeared, furniture and carpet were moved out of Travellin and Richard's home.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Wait, but how does she know this?

• 41:03Ashley Flowers?

  Bill told her about the carpet and furniture. And the two of them thought that it was so weird because if you still think your wife is gonna come back, you're talking to her.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  I was like, you're asking her to come back in the news.

• 41:14Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, getting rid of a bunch of stuff in your house is probably gonna be a shock to her. Like, is now really the time?

• 41:20Speaker 01

  And when was he supposed to be doing this? Like, was he moving it to the retirement house, maybe?

• 41:25Ashley Flowers?

  No, no, because he never ends up moving to the retirement house. He and- Ends up selling it and he ends up converting her antique shop to residential housing like rents it out. So, I mean, I guess TBD timing, maybe he was moving some of the furniture to the shop to furnish the apartment? I don't know. And I don't know exactly when the girlfriend heard about this or like when this exactly was supposed to happen. I just know shortly after she went missing. She also says that after her and Phil were together, Richard would come by the pub that she worked at to talk to her. And looking back, she thinks that he was trying to find out what she knew or what Travellin's brothers were maybe talking to her about.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Like a temperature check.

• 42:05Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but she said it was so weird because like in all the times that he did talk to her, he showed no emotion. Never asked questions, never said that he loved his wife, missed his wife, which she found weird. But I don't know. So here's the thing, like I know I teed this up being like, you know, her two things. Phil is mystery man, Richard removing carpet furniture.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  And like them not being happy.

• 42:23Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, maybe those two things explain what police did in 2001. But I also can't make those two things work together. Phil as mystery man only makes sense to me if he was like helping Travellin get away.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:36Ashley Flowers?

  Which no one ever suggests to be true. But then if he helped her get away, why is Richard moving furniture?

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Then Richard has nothing to do with it.

• 42:45Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And even if he did that, it's not suspicious.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Right. It has nothing to do with why she's gone.

• 42:50Ashley Flowers?

  No sense. I mean, you see why police is calling this one of the most confusing cases their department has ever worked, ever seen.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, okay, can we just like pause for a second and like go down a path with me? If Richard is involved in some way, break it down. Is his alibi of being out of town bogus?

• 43:09Ashley Flowers?

  I'm not gonna go down a path with you. I'm gonna take you down the rabbit hole with me.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 43:13Ashley Flowers?

  So, Richard is supposed to be in Rutland, right? An hour away. Police had initially reported that he didn't get back until 5:00 PM. And I read somewhere that workers could confirm that he was at this bungalow where the work was being done. But I only saw that in like one article. And there was some stuff even saying that Richard and Travellin only had one car. So he like couldn't have gotten back. But like, in my mind, I'm like, but he did. Whether it's at five or whatever, we know he gets back. Maybe he got a ride. I don't know. But anyways, if he's not back until five, he's in the clear since everyone believes something happened to her around 2:30 when she was last seen near her house.

• 43:52Ashley Flowers?

  Well, fast friggin forward, at some point, there are changes in news reports about when Richard gets home without any real explanation as to why all of a sudden it's changed. Sometimes people call it lunchtime that he's back. In that TV episode I was talking about, they get more specific and say that a police source told them Richard was seen at a local pub at 2:30.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  2:30, like exactly when she goes missing.

• 44:18Ashley Flowers?

  Uh, yes. Now, a bunch of blogs that I've seen go on the other extreme and they say that he was for sure in Rudland and actually he kept calling the house and shop. And when he couldn't get her, he called a neighbor to go check and they're the first to realize the shop is locked. They call and tell him, he calls police, maybe from Rudland. But for the life of me, I have no idea where these blogs are getting that information because nothing even close to that is in the news reports that I have access to. But even if he was there that whole time and calling the neighbor, I'm not even sure that puts him in the clear in my mind. I mean, without knowing the timing of the calls, I can't say if he did or didn't have time to go back and forth like between his bungalow and their home.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Did they ever do any of the searches for her up where the bungalow was?

• 45:08Ashley Flowers?

  Yes, but not when or why you might think. And really, this is when and where our case becomes active, like in present day and gets exceptionally more weird. So before I tell you what I'm about to tell you, let me set the stage a little bit. So there's this wild tip that police get in March 2019. Based on all the reporting that was out there before, it seemed like these two men got a tip given to them that led them to believe they knew where Trevaline's body was. And a ton happens after this. Police search, they don't find anything, then something even stranger happens. And then like. A lot of people just end up writing these guys off like, oh, they're just making it up.

• 45:53Ashley Flowers?

  But when I was looking at this case, I'm like, why? Like, they have no connection to Travellene, no reason to be doing this. They don't gain anything. And they are still so convinced that their information is right. They say they have pictures, but of course, the pictures aren't published anywhere. So obviously, I need to get my hands on those pictures. And what I really wanted to know is where did this tip originate from?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:19Ashley Flowers?

  That is never reported on. And to me, it feels pretty important. Like, can I solve Travellene's case from another country? Probably not. But am I gonna try?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  1,000%.

• 46:29Ashley Flowers?

  I couldn't call myself a crime junkie if I didn't. And this felt like the one place I knew I might actually get answers. Because unlike the rest of this story, where everyone I wanted to talk to has already passed and can't give me the details I need. These two brothers, Andrew Sutton, an accountant, and Lee Sutton, a carpenter. They're still alive and have connections to this little place you might have heard of for the first time today. Rudland. So I asked our reporter, Taylor Hartz, to track them down and ask them how this tip came out. And this is a story that, in Andrew's own words, is stranger than fiction. So get ready.

• 47:10Ashley Flowers?

  Andrew Sutton told us that in 2019, his brother, Lee, Lee's the carpenter. He was doing some construction work on a bungalow in Rudland. And when Lee mentions this to Andrew, Andrew thinks of Travellene. Her case is like local lore in North Wales. And when Andrew hears bungalow in Rudland, like, to him, there is only one bungalow in Rudland.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:33Ashley Flowers?

  Obviously, that's not true. So not surprising when Lee brings it up to the owner and he's like, no, no, no, this isn't the same bungalow that Travellene and Richard owned. But actually, this guy that he's talking to remembers the case well, too. And he said that Richard used to spend quite a lot of time at the same bar that this guy did at the Rudland Golf Club, which, like, nothing burger to Lee, right? Like, Lee didn't really know about this case. Like, he's like, okay, cool. He goes on with his day. But as he's packing up at the end of the day, he's making small talk with this guy, asking him like, oh, well, do you still go to that pub at the golf club? And the guy's like, no, you know, I actually stopped going to Ruddlin Golf Club because it started to smell inside.

• 48:17Ashley Flowers?

  And Lee said in that moment, he literally dropped whatever was in his hand because he had heard that before. So he said that back in 1990, young Buck in his twenties, he was in the construction trade then, like he is later. But he says back then he did work for this older guy. And every day this guy did lunch at the golf club. Now, this guy, again, he seems to be retired or whatever. And Lee said that he used to work at the golf club back in the day. So this was like his spot. Lee knew his routine. He would leave, he'd be gone for about an hour or so for lunch, come back. Well, one day in 1990, he leaves for his lunch at the club, but he's back within like 15 minutes. So Lee's like, why back so soon?

• 49:01Ashley Flowers?

  And this guy said that there was this terrible smell in the building. He like could not take it. Now, he confirmed guy in 1990 and guy in 2019 did not know each other. Like he asked 2019 guy. So he's got two separate people over the course of almost 30 years, telling him about this horrible smell at the club in the summer of 1990. Now, his brother, Andrew Sutton, told us that 2019 guy said it wasn't just him that was bothered by the smell. A lot of people were complaining about it. So much so that they complained to staff at the golf club. And he said the golf club was adding an extension at the time. So employees reached out to the contractors and the contractors were basically like,

• 49:43Ashley Flowers?

  oh, you know, an animal must have just like gotten in under the floorboards and died.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Is that where the smell was coming from? Like, is it where the construction was?

• 49:52Ashley Flowers?

  So no, that's the weird part. But like, from what they were hearing, it was just like, nobody wanted to deal. They were kind of all satisfied saying like, listen, had to be an animal that died. It's decomposing. Yes, the smell is horrible, but it's eventually just going to go away on its own. So, as you can imagine, after Lee hears this, he immediately calls his brother and is like, "Hey, I asked about that bungalow, not the one you're thinking of, but you're never gonna believe this." And both of them are just kind of like stunned. So they decide to go on a field trip. Like, they gotta see this thing for themselves, right? Like, cuz there's no way. Two random brothers, one who'd never even heard about the case, they're not gonna find something that police haven't. But what if?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Again, this is like sounding like the creation of a Crime Junkie episode.

• 50:40Ashley Flowers?

  So, in the most responsible fashion, they actually go to police first. They make sure that they have this information to check it out. And then they wait. Surely, there's gonna be a search, or they're gonna hear something back. "Hey, FYI, we looked into it. It's nothing, like, thanks for the tip." But they don't. Even when they try following up with police. Police are like, "Listen, we may look into it, we may not. It's like, not your problem to worry about, bye." Which isn't enough for them. Like, they gotta be in their bonnet about this thing now. Because Lee has been catching up on Travellene's case in this time. He watched the Crime Watch special that was filmed within two months of Travellene going missing. And he sure didn't like how Richard, who, by the way, is already dead in 2019 when all this is happening.

• 51:25Ashley Flowers?

  Lee doesn't like how Richard keeps slipping into past tense now and then, talking about his missing wife.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Which, like, we've seen before, and it always makes me side-eye cuz like, you would have to consciously correct yourself if you knew something.

• 51:40Ashley Flowers?

  I know. And I honestly, when I first watched it, like, and I'm like the crime junkie, I didn't even pick up on the past tense thing my first go-around. The thing that like, really kinda drove me up a wall is I noticed that in all of Richard's interviews, anytime he like talks about the police investigation, he's like praising them. Like, "They did everything they could, like, they're doing a great job." And maybe they did. I'm just saying, I've never seen a case where a missing person is never found over decades, and the family is like, "You did all you could do." Like, there was, like, I'm not saying there's a first time for ever.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  But like, there's usually like some hesitation, some like question marks.

• 52:20Ashley Flowers?

  What else could we have done? Like, we could have done this earlier.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Can we explore other options? But like the...

• 52:25Ashley Flowers?

  But anyways, all that to say, like, they're honing in on their own things. And the Sutton brothers are not gonna let this go. I don't know if they would have called themselves crime junkies before, but Lee and Andrew, you are crime junkies.

• 52:37Ashley Flowers?

  So at some point, Lee decides to go take a look at this floor for himself. Like, what's what? Could a body be down there? Could it just be an animal? And when he does, he doesn't think that there's any way an animal could have gotten under this floor accidentally and died, causing this smell. He thinks the only way something dead wound up under those floorboards would be if it was put there by someone. And they are gonna figure out what it is if it is the last thing they do. And they know exactly how. So this building has an air brick right near where this smell originated from. And I actually had to look up, I didn't know what an air brick was. It is exactly what it sounds. It's like shaped like a brick, but it has holes, so like it's bent.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  It can go through it?

• 53:23Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. Right there in the name, Ashley. Now, the holes are too small to actually see anything, and it's obviously like dark under there, but Andrew knows a tool that they can use. So one Saturday morning in March of 2019, they go to a hardware store and they buy a Stanley Fiber Optic LED inspection camera, which is basically this tiny little thing that you hold. It has a screen on the front, and then it's like a little tube.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Like a scope?

• 53:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, that's the word. Man, today. So it has this little scope, so you can put it in tiny holes.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 53:53Ashley Flowers?

  So they buy this, they go straight to the golf club, specifically the bar, and they're like sitting there inside, like putting the batteries in, playing around with it, figuring out how it worked, and coming up with a little white lie. Because they felt like if they told the people at the club that they're gonna go hunting around for a dead body, like...

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Might not be welcome at the club.

• 54:11Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, they're not gonna be super into it. So when the guy at the club is like, "Oh, what are you doing with that?", they make up a story. And one of them is like, "Oh, you know, my brother's gonna buy this house, and I wanna check that the floors haven't, like, rot out or whatever. Do you mind if I just test it out here?" And the guy's like, "Sure, whatever, go for it." Brit. Okay, I am gonna show you the pictures. These have never been published before anywhere in the world. And this is what they see seconds after putting the camera through the air vent.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 54:45Ashley Flowers?

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• 55:29Ashley Flowers?

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• 56:37Ashley Flowers?

  I wish the quality was better here. The Stanley camera doesn't record it like that camera thing on it is just a viewer. Yeah, so what you're looking at is pictures that the brothers took of like the view screen or whatever.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Okay, I don't need it to be any clearer. Ashley, I think I'm looking at a human skeleton.

• 56:57Ashley Flowers?

  I know, and even like the printouts, I feel like don't do it justice. The second I saw it, I'm like, I mean, I feel like skull, eyes, spine. There's like maybe a hole in the skull. And actually, that's like more pronounced when you print it out. I mean, like, I don't know, I looked at this and I saw it in the same way that I think that they did. I saw it instantly. I was a little surprised that apparently our, so our reporter saw it too. So did another reporter we have who's a former detective. But apparently everyone else in the office like didn't. They were like, oh yeah, no, there's nothing there. So like, I don't know if I'm the one who's like losing it.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  And it's also one of those things like, am I being biased? Like, I know what I'm looking for, so I'm seeing it, one of those things, but.

• 57:39Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, what, it doesn't look like anything else. At least not to me. And listen, I told you, these have never been published anywhere before, even though these men have talked to news outlets.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Wait, why not?

• 57:51Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. Like, when we talked to Lee, he said that they tried to get these pictures out there. Like, they've had interviews scheduled with other reporters who've just ghosted them. And then when they did a sit down with one journalist who actually heard them out, they never ended up publishing anything. So Lee says they feel like they just keep like hitting brick wall after brick wall until we called. Now, they gave the photos to us no problem. Like, they're dying for someone to take them more seriously. It makes no sense to me. And listen, I mean, like, obviously, I haven't been able to authenticate these photos. I asked the brothers if any other people have tried, and they said no. Truly, when they were first just like talking about this and I hadn't seen them, I was like, you know what, like, this is gonna be so vague, you probably can't see anything.

• 58:34Ashley Flowers?

  That's why everyone breaks them off, like, it's probably why everyone doesn't want to publish them.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Because they're blurry and it's like, yeah, vague.

• 58:40Ashley Flowers?

  I know, but then I see them and I'm like, what are we doing here, people?

• 58:43Speaker 01

  So, okay, back to the. Story, they stick the scope down the air brick. They see this. What do they do then?

• 58:51Ashley Flowers?

  Well, they're in shock for a minute, as you can imagine. But they leave. So they said that they left, it was like a weekend. And for like the weekend, they're like staring at these pictures like this can't be real. But like, they really felt like it was real. So they took the pictures on March 14th. On March 19th, they come back to the golf club and they tell the people at the club what it is they found and they need to call police. And Lee says that the guy that they were telling this to at the club just quote, went to pieces. And was like, well, how do you know? Who is it? How long has she been there? And Lee obviously said, he's like, you know, I don't, I don't know. Like, we just know our, what our photos show. There appears to be a body under the floor.

• 59:35Ashley Flowers?

  He said at that point, there was this other woman who appeared. She seemed to be in charge at the golf club as well. And Lee said that she was asking about how this might affect their business. Now, we tried calling the golf club ourselves to ask a manager about how all of this went down. But when we did, the manager was already gone for the day or out of the office or in London and they have not called us back yet. But we do know that staff at the golf club and the Sutton Brothers called police when Andrew and Lee showed them the photos. And Andrew says that within a half hour, a large number of officers from Northern Wales PD show up. They show them where they think the body is, show them the pictures.

• 1:00:17Ashley Flowers?

  And Lee says that he followed police inside to this room right above where they spotted the body. And guess what's on the floor? This trap door. It's like two feet by three feetish, they estimate. But there's this big, heavy freezer over part of it. And Lee got a chance to get on the floor and really get like a good look at it. And here's the really interesting part. He said that it looked like it had not been opened in a long time.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  I think the interesting part is that police are just letting him examine this with them.

• 1:00:51Ashley Flowers?

  Uh, I think he like snuck in. I guess he was wearing something that like maybe similar to what you might be wearing. You're actually gonna go in that crawl space to collect the body. And there were like so many people, he kind of just like slipped right in there. But once they realized who he was, they did kick him out. But importantly, he said that as he's leaving, he can hear them like prying the door open. And he could hear the nails screeching in a way that you only hear when something is like decades old.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  So he's the carpenter brother, right? So like he kind of knows what he's talking about.

• 1:01:20Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and he's like, I'm walking out and I'm like, this is it. They're gonna find her. But this is like when he's getting shoot out. So they make him go outside where Andrew was waiting. And then they're moved even farther away from where the work is being done. And it's weird, this officer who is leading them away, Lee says that he says the strangest thing to him. He says that their photos would never hold up in court. And Lee's like, court? Like, who's talking about court? Like, what? It's just weird. But I don't know, in the moment, whatever. So they're in the clubhouse just waiting. And the officer in charge comes back to Lee and Andrew and says, hey, we want you to put your camera back in, just like see what you can see.

• 1:02:02Ashley Flowers?

  So they go back, they put their camera back in, and this is what they see.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Where'd it go?

• 1:02:09Ashley Flowers?

  Where'd what go?

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Don't do that. Where's the skeleton?

• 1:02:14Ashley Flowers?

  Police say there never was a skeleton. They say they found nothing. Now, that's what we get in the official reporting when police talk to news outlets. We searched, we found nothing. Andrew and Lee told us, though, that as they were pulling the camera out, I mean, confused as hell about what was going on.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Ashley Flowers?

  They said, like, again, as it's coming out, they spot something, a bone, maybe like 10 inches long. And Lee starts getting all excited. He's like, there, okay, do you see this?

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Ashley Flowers?

  And he shows the camera to the detective inspector. And they get no explanation, like nothing. They are just asked to leave, go to the station for statements, which they do, they go, they give statements. And they leave thinking that they're gonna hear something about the bone that they saw altogether, but they don't. The next day, they just get a call and police say there is no body.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  But then, then what am I looking at back here? What is that?

• 1:03:11Ashley Flowers?

  Feel crazy?

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Ashley Flowers?

  The brothers feel crazy. Like I said before, they've met with reporters, they've met with people who, the ones who did that like episode on this case, but they feel like they're screaming into the void.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, actually, there was a body there.

• 1:03:26Ashley Flowers?

  According to police, there was not.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  But if these pictures are real, then...

• 1:03:32Ashley Flowers?

  Then, then I would think someone moved her body. And that's exactly what the Sutton brothers think happened. Specifically, they think someone in the police department removed it. They're pretty vocal about this theory and Lee posts about it all the time on his social media. But of course, I mean, there's no real evidence to support this and we...

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Like, there's, if there's no body, there's no body to remove.

• 1:03:56Ashley Flowers?

  And we don't have a statement from the police department on this.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  So, like, why the police stuff? My first thought went to someone at the golf club. I mean, there was like four or five days between them putting the scope down, taking the pictures, and then when they go back to call police.

• 1:04:12Ashley Flowers?

  It seems like that, that's what seemed like the obvious answer to me. But I mean, in talking to the brothers, like, what makes them so convinced of their theory is they always point back to the trap door. They say that there is absolutely no other way to get to that spot where they think the skeleton was, other than the trap door. And Lee is adamant that when he saw that trap door and heard it being removed, he knew that that thing had been shut tight when police opened it. And that when they're opening it, that was the first time that that had been done in like decades.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  But how would they remove a skeleton with all of those people? I mean, he said there was like a crowd...

• 1:04:46Ashley Flowers?

  Dude.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  With no one noticing.

• 1:04:48Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. And also, why? Like, a cover up like this would take a lot of people. Why would a lot of people have a vested interest in this?

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  I would say, and to protect who? Like, there's a lot of question marks as to like, what the motive would be to do this?

• 1:05:05Ashley Flowers?

  To me, the only person who wins if she's not found there is the golf club.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:10Ashley Flowers?

  But again, the brothers don't leave a lot of room for who. They point squarely at police and they even end up filing a formal complaint against the police criticizing their handling of the case. The Independent Office of Police Conduct reviewed the complaint and then sent the matter back to the police department that was being, that they're making the complaint against. Like they're, "Listen, this is like an internal matter. You guys should handle it." And the police department is like, "We reject this complaint."

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  This complaint on this case that didn't happen to them.

• 1:05:37Ashley Flowers?

  Case closed on their end. So that's it. The brothers are written off as loony randos who imagined this whole thing while I'm over here like, "But did they?"

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, let's hang out here just a minute longer. If there really was a body under the floorboards, if it really was put there the summer of 1990, if it was Trevaline, to me, that kind of points to just one person.

• 1:06:02Ashley Flowers?

  Mm-hmm. And Andrew and Lee have a whole theory about this. They say that they've heard Richard and Trevaline were having problems and that she was actually on the verge of leaving him, which they think led to some sort of altercation and ultimately her death. And we know his bungalow was close by the golf club. And he, by his own admission, says he's in Ruddland when she goes missing.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Right, like that was his alibi.

• 1:06:27Ashley Flowers?

  The whole thing started because someone who used to go there says in 1990, Richard drank at the golf club bar. And we weren't able to verify this, but Andrew and Lee say they even believe that Richard was working as a handyman at the golf club that summer.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:06:45Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Wait, what did he do for a living? Like, was he always a handyman?

• 1:06:49Ashley Flowers?

  He worked in maintenance. I think it was like at like a chemical plant. So like, it's totally plausible that he could have been doing work there. Again, we haven't heard back from anyone at the golf club, so we haven't been able to confirm this. But anyways, the brothers are saying that they heard this from other people. Because obviously, people telling them to like, "Shoo, shoo, shoo, go away." Like, this doesn't make them less interested in this, and they have talked to a lot of people about it since. So they think Richard would have had access to a storage room off the kitchen where they say there was a trapdoor leading underneath the floor. And they think that he could have put Trevaline's body under there to cover up a crime.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  I mean hypothetically, it could work. He gets back to Len Gofflin, scoops her up in the car. I mean, she'd get in with him.

• 1:07:35Ashley Flowers?

  Someone she knew.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  Or, or maybe something happens in her shop. He drives her off to another town.

• 1:07:40Ashley Flowers?

  Listen, what's so weird to me is based on everything I've read, police never even searched the whole Rudland area back then, by the way. So like, I mean, she totally could have been hidden away if she was there.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:53Ashley Flowers?

  And then he ends up selling the bungalow. So even he doesn't keep ties to that town.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  But when would he have put her under the floor? I mean, she went missing on a Saturday. You can't just like walk into a golf club on a Saturday afternoon and hide a dead body under the bar. Like,

• 1:08:07Ashley Flowers?

  No.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  What's the timing of it then?

• 1:08:09Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. Like, she would have had to have been somewhere else, at least for a little while, which like, I don't know, whatever, that's doable. The part that's outlandish to me is how ballsy you would have to be to put anything dead under the floor and not expect someone to go looking for it.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Ashley Flowers?

  Who doesn't know that a body is gonna start to smell, right?

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Especially when you like have this other house of theirs right, like,

• 1:08:31Ashley Flowers?

  Well, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  The bungalow's right there where like no one else is.

• 1:08:35Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. If someone would have like smelled this and gone looking for it and found that it was Travellene, like he's right there. There would have been no one else to blame but him.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and that doesn't really make sense to me either. If there was a trapdoor there, why didn't they go looking for the smell in the nine, like in 90, like,

• 1:08:54Ashley Flowers?

  I have to.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  We know it was bad for business. People left.

• 1:08:57Ashley Flowers?

  Well, the only thing I, the only thing I can think is that maybe it was already nailed shut or.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Then crack it open?

• 1:09:03Ashley Flowers?

  Maybe. If you think it's a raccoon, you're like, what? I don't know. Maybe, maybe the smell wasn't as bad as everyone remembered. I don't know. I have spiraled on this. I'm even like, I mean, I've gone deep. I'm like, who owned the golf club in 90? Like, online property records for North Wales, like they don't go back that far. Would someone have kept such a big secret for Richard? Is everyone still keeping the secret? And that's why the body was moved. But like, why would a whole department be hiding a secret for a dead man? Richard died in 2014. Like, dude, this is, was there no body after all? But wait, just when you start thinking that, this happens.

• 1:09:43Ashley Flowers?

  In 2021, this small metal plaque seems to appear mysteriously one day, bolted to a bench on a walkway just outside of Rudland. No one knows when exactly it got there or who put it there. And it looks like one of those little memorial plaques that usually say like, "In memory of whoever." Except this message looks handmade, like someone actually scratched a message into the metal. A message that reads, "In memory of Travellene Evans. Vanished, 1606, 1990. Found, Rudland, G.C. 1403, 2019. Removed, 1903, 2019. R.I.P."

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  So the Sutton brothers put it there?

• 1:10:32Ashley Flowers?

  That was my first thought, but they say that they're not responsible for it. They actually think that it might have been a relative of Travellene's or maybe someone from the police department who put the plaque up? Someone who maybe was there while they were excavating? And like, I don't know, this is their way of like whistleblowing? But again, there's no evidence to back that up, so I don't-

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  And this is like a public bench, like it's owned by the town?

• 1:10:56Ashley Flowers?

  It is, but I mean, this is definitely not like a town sanctioned plaque.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:00Ashley Flowers?

  The local government actually had it removed. But then another one pops up. This time outside an old miner's cottage a few minutes away from the first bench. This one's same size, same material, same like sketchy handwriting, it seems. But the message is longer this time. I'm gonna have you take a look at this one instead of reading it. You can do it.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  "Justice awaits those responsible for the removal and disposal of Travellene Evans. In this life or the next, from Rudland Golf Club on March 19, 2019 at noon. And may the Lord have mercy upon their souls." Noon is specific.

• 1:11:36Ashley Flowers?

  I know. I can't find anything about what time of day the like, they like searched for her or whatever took up the floor. And of course, like no one knows who put this plaque up either. Now, it's been quiet since 2021, but maybe that's because no one was listening. If enough people talk about this case, talk about these pictures, maybe more people will feel comfortable coming forward and speaking if they know something. There's been a fifth theory explored over the years that, you know, Trevaline could have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time and gotten caught in the crosshairs of a stranger, perhaps a serial killer. In 2011, police explored this avenue and looked into two different serial killers

• 1:12:18Ashley Flowers?

  in the area, Robin Ligas and Christopher Halliwell. Robin killed a few men in the area around that time, one of whom was an antiques dealer, but they couldn't find any solid connection to Trevaline. Or actually, any other female victims. As far as I can tell, all of his victims were male, so it seems like he was ruled out. And then with Christopher, he did kill women, and apparently he used to work as a window cleaner who had a habit of stealing antiques. And back when Trevaline disappeared, he was apparently working in North Wales. But they've never been able to definitively tie him to Trevaline's case either. And sure, a serial killer is possible, but is it probable?

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:59Ashley Flowers?

  And who was the mystery man? Where does he fit into all of this? Does he exist? Or is he a fiction of everyone's imagination like police say the skeleton under the floor was for the Sutton Brothers? Someone out there can answer that question. And if that's you, you can email me, [email protected]. I'll be looking for your message.

• 1:13:35Ashley Flowers?

  You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com. And if you want to listen to more episodes like this and all of our episodes completely ad-free, be sure to join the fan club. You'll also get early access to new episodes every week.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  And you can follow us on Instagram, at Crime Junkie Podcast.

• 1:13:53Ashley Flowers?

  We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

• 1:14:23Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

• 1:14:32Speaker 03

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.