SERIAL KILLER: "The Blood Countess" Pt. 2 with Dr. Harini Bhat from Hidden History

Vanessa and Dr. Engels are joined again by Dr. Harini Bhat from PAVE Studio's newest show "Hidden History" as they conclude their deep dive into the "Blood Countess" Elizabeth Bathory, used her wealth and noble status to lure hundreds of young women to their deaths inside the walls of Castle Csejthe. As her crimes escalated from peasant girls to the daughters of nobility, rumors of blood baths and dark magic spread... ultimately reaching the King of Hungary himself. But was she one of history's most prolific serial killers, or the victim of a politically motivated conspiracy? Follow Hidden History with Dr. Harini Bhat wherever you listen to podcasts: https://play.megaphone.fm/v_g_ncqyrc2e6tssscolqw If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:41Vanessa Richardson?

  Rumors play a role in all of our lives. We've all heard stories about a coworker or a friend of a friend. Usually, these little bits of gossip are harmless. For most people, the stories fade. We forget about them and move on. But sometimes, a rumor can be so monumental and so horrifying that it lives on for centuries.

• 1:05Vanessa Richardson?

  When Elizabeth Bathory went from noble daughter to feared countess, the rumors about her sent a chill through her medieval Hungarian town. Today, her haunting tale lives on, and we're left to wonder, was the blood countess a ruthless killer, or was someone out to get her?

• 1:38Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes, it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:54Tristin Engels?

  And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 2:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series, and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts.

• 2:20Tristin Engels?

  And today, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome back Dr. Harini Bhat, the host of Hidden History, the debut show from Pave's new history studio, Rewind. So happy to be back with you two.

• 2:33Vanessa Richardson?

  So glad you're here, and you're welcome to come on anytime. And just like last time, Dr. Bhat will introduce today's episode. Then be sure to stick around at the end for an extended conversation between her and Dr. Engels about all things hidden history.

• 2:47Tristin Engels?

  Thanks, Vanessa. Before we get started, please be advised that this episode contains discussion of murder, torture, and violence to women and children, so please listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Dr. Engels conclude their deep dive into the life of Countess Elizabeth Bathory, better known as the Blood Countess. In 16th and 17th century Hungary, Elizabeth had everything: land, power, and riches. But she also hid a dark secret. Her thirst for blood left hundreds dead, making Elizabeth one of the most prolific serial killers ever. As Vanessa goes through the story, Dr. Engels will be talking about things like why people in power may kill out of desperation, how that desperation fuels new gruesome killing

• 3:32Tristin Engels?

  methods, and the impact of widespread rumors and gossip on murder investigations. And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 3:48Vanessa Richardson?

  By the early 1600s, Elizabeth Bathory was in her early 40s and married to Count Ferenc Nádózsdi. On the outside, the couple seemed like all the other nobles in the Kingdom of Hungary at the time. Ferenc often went off to war, and Elizabeth presided over their land in his absence. However, rumors abounded as to the mysterious and deadly truth of what was happening within the walls of Nádózsdi Castle. Elizabeth, Ferenc, and a few trusted members of their household staff, a woman named Anna Darvulja, a young man named John, and three other women named Helena, Katerina, and Dorothea, were brutally torturing and killing countless young girls.

• 4:30Vanessa Richardson?

  These young girls were members of the peasant class who had come to the castle to work, with no idea they were marching straight toward their gruesome deaths. After Elizabeth summoned the local priests to remove some of the girls' caskets, the priests became suspicious, because Elizabeth wouldn't allow them to actually view the bodies, as was custom. After that, the priests refused to perform burial rites, which put them in a standoff with Elizabeth, who likely knew that if she continued burying bodies in random places like she used to, then she could get caught. Elizabeth racked her brain for a way to get the clergy off her back. Unfortunately for her, they were quicker than she was.

• 5:12Vanessa Richardson?

  They'd set their sights on the one member of Elizabeth's court they despised most: Anna. Anna had taught Elizabeth everything she knew about torture and murder, and while the clergy didn't know that for a fact, they suspected it, because Anna was notorious for her dark magic prowess. By Easter of 1602, the priests were thinking of taking drastic action by excommunicating Anna. This was a huge punishment, because it meant Anna had no chance of entering heaven. Despite how violent Elizabeth and Ferenc were, they were also deeply religious, and this was the last thing they wanted for their beloved partner in crime.

• 5:54Tristin Engels?

  Someone holding strong religious beliefs while also engaging in extreme violence can seem contradictory, but it's also not a new concept, and there are a few ways to understand it. First, we have to consider the context. In their time, religion was part of daily life and identity and social structure. It wasn't necessarily a reflection of moral alignment. But there are also psychological explanations as well. And one is something we talked about in part one, which is compartmentalization. And I know we do talk about this concept a lot on this podcast, but it is an extremely common psychological mechanism. Case in point, a person can maintain a religious identity in one area of their life while engaging

• 6:37Tristin Engels?

  in harmful behavior in another. A woman can be a mother in one aspect of her life and engage in harmful behavior toward children in another. How many cases have you also heard of or covered that involve someone of faith or even a member of the clergy? It's not something new. Another explanation is moral justification. That's framing behavior in a way that reduces internal conflict. They view their actions as necessary or deserved. And in Elizabeth's case, this applies because she targets girls she feels are beneath her. So her religious beliefs don't appear to be applied equally to everyone. Anna also plays a role in maintaining her system of violence. She taught Elizabeth a lot, and she's central to how it is carried

• 7:22Tristin Engels?

  out and sustained in her household. So when the clergy targets Anna, it can create instability and threaten Elizabeth's entire structure. And that's where the tension, I think, was going to come in here, because now an authority that Elizabeth actually recognizes is challenging something that she has relied on to maintain both control and consistency in her micro-world.

• 7:47Vanessa Richardson?

  It would take a lot to stop Elizabeth, Ferenc, and their accomplices from doing what they enjoyed most. Fortunately for them, Ferenc knew exactly how to solve their problem, by donating a large sum of money to the church. After that, the priests dropped the issue completely. It's not clear whether Elizabeth ever tried to get them to remove more bodies from the castle, but it's possible she decided to keep a safe distance from the clergy from then on, especially when she lost the only person who could keep her safe from them: Ferenc himself. About a year earlier, Ferenc had fallen gravely ill. His health was up and down for the next few years. At one point, he was well enough to return to battle,

• 8:30Vanessa Richardson?

  and in doing so, he solidified his reputation as a celebrated war hero. But when he returned home in 1604, 48-year-old Ferenc fell ill again. This time, he was confined to his bed, and on January 3rd of that year, he died. Elizabeth was devastated. She'd not only lost her husband, but she was now a widow, which was one of the most vulnerable positions for a land-owning noblewoman. She was left to defend herself and her castle in the middle of a violent war.

• 9:04Tristin Engels?

  In episode 1, we talked about Elizabeth's upbringing and how, despite having power and resources, she relied heavily on everyone else to guide her. From a young age, everything was done for her. She was taught what to think, how to act, and how to exert control, but not necessarily how to think on her own or operate without that guidance. That pattern continued with Ferenc. He wasn't just a partner. He was part of her structure. He reinforced her behavior, supported her authority, and played a role in how she was navigating decisions and stability. So when he's gone, she loses that anchor. And now she's expected to function independently by managing a castle, maintaining the power without him,

• 9:49Tristin Engels?

  and doing so in the middle of a war. But if she doesn't have the ability to do that confidently, she's going to fall back on what feels familiar and effective. And for Elizabeth, that's control. So rather than adapting in a new way, she's likely to double down on asserting dominance, using anger and violence as a way to manage the uncertainty and regain a sense of stability.

• 10:12Vanessa Richardson?

  In the wake of Florence's death, Elizabeth's blood thirst seemed to spiral even more out of control, and she turned to Anna for emotional support. Unsurprisingly, Anna encouraged Elizabeth to find peace doing what she loved most: torturing her servants. And that's exactly what Elizabeth did. For the next few years, she went on an all-out spree. She became more violent, not just in her everyday actions, but whenever she needed a pick-me-up. If Elizabeth caught one of her servants making even the smallest error, a poorly sewn gown or a crooked apron, she would stick them with pins and needles or even cut their flesh with knives. Once, when a servant girl dared to say she was thirsty,

• 10:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Elizabeth forced her to wade neck-deep into frigid, cold water, then poured water over her face as she stood there.

• 11:05Tristin Engels?

  Elizabeth's behavior is quite erratic in the sense that she doesn't have a standard MO. In her case, her behavior is tied to what it does for her. And based on what you've described, her violence is used as a regulation tool. When she's frustrated, when she's distressed, when she needs a release, she turns to violence. So the specific act may vary, especially in severity, but the purpose is consistent. These different methods are more reflective of escalation, experimentation, or possible habituation, which we discussed in episode one, and the search for the same psychological effect. There may also be elements of displaced anger, where relatively minor triggers like a mistake

• 11:49Tristin Engels?

  or a request provoke a much more extreme response. The reaction is disproportionate to the situation because it's tied to something bigger internally. This explains why she's not doing it in the same ritualized fashion that she was previously as well. Also, you do see parallels in more modern cases where serial offenders describe violence as relieving tension or providing a sense of control or stimulation. Violence serves a purpose for Elizabeth, and that's what keeps it going.

• 12:21Vanessa Richardson?

  No one was safe from Elizabeth's fury, and that rage was the only thing distracting her from the loss of her husband. All Elizabeth wanted to do was make her servants suffer and watch the life drain from their eyes. At the same time, she was aware that villagers were still whispering about her, and the clergy was still on to her. So in order to gain a little privacy, Elizabeth and her inner circle traveled to one of her other estates, which was located in Vienna. Once there, she kicked her killing spree up a notch, but she quickly realized that the sound of her victims' screams were so loud, they could be heard by monks living across the street. Desperate to kill with impunity, Elizabeth relocated again. She went back to Hungary,

• 13:05Vanessa Richardson?

  but instead of returning to the Nádózdi estate, she moved permanently into another estate, Castle Čeďá. And this castle became the execution block for many unsuspecting and innocent victims. It's said that the majority of Elizabeth's tortures and murders occurred inside or around Castle Čeďá, but even though nobody there was on to her yet, Elizabeth's position in society was in jeopardy. She was almost 50 years old, and without her war hero husband to protect their lands, her political rivals were circling. She had to find a way to protect what was hers. And soon, she had an idea. All it would take was a little blood.

• 13:54Speaker 03

  Did you know the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean for years, may never have actually killed anyone? Or that the real Golden Age of Pirates was the most democratic workplace in the Western world? I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum, and history is my thing. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, we take the most

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Unbelievable true things in history and tell you the whole story behind them. Carter sets the scene. Connor brings the facts, the deep cuts, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is. This is the history lesson you actually wished you had in high school. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 14:46Speaker 04

  The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post.

• 14:53Tristin Engels?

  On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves.

• 15:01Speaker 04

  People post the things they'd never say out loud, anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real.

• 15:06Tristin Engels?

  And every Tuesday on Crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  I'm Sabrina Deanna-Roga from Two Girls, One Ghost.

• 15:13Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Alexis Linkletter from The First Degree.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged true crime stories the internet has to offer.

• 15:21Tristin Engels?

  And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you. And then we swap.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view.

• 15:33Tristin Engels?

  It's dark, it's messy, and the scariest part is that these are real stories posted by real people.

• 15:39Speaker 04

  New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 15:48Vanessa Richardson?

  In the early 1600s, Elizabeth Bathory was left widowed and unprotected from her family's political rivals. She moved into Castle Cheta, where she set up a new torture chamber and a new revolving door of unsuspecting victims. But no matter how many young girls she tortured and killed, Elizabeth couldn't outrun her political problems. Beyond hoping for the king's protection, there wasn't much Elizabeth could do if another noble family decided they wanted to move against her. One option was to get married and find shelter that way. The only problem was, she wasn't exactly a great marriage candidate. She was getting older, past childbearing age. As time passed, Elizabeth started to feel more desperate, like she had nothing to hold on to,

• 16:33Vanessa Richardson?

  and that caused her to unleash violence like never before. According to some rumors, if her servants didn't complete their needlework well enough, Elizabeth would send them to the torture chamber within the castle. There, Elizabeth and members of her inner circle would stick the girls with needles, burn them with fire irons, and leave them beaten and maimed. Sometimes, they kept the girls alive for days in their battered states, only to watch them starve to death.

• 17:03Tristin Engels?

  Now we're seeing a shift back towards something more structured, controlled, and intentional, which coincides with her moving around and finding a more private estate to do this in. She has the time and the privacy now. And keeping her victims alive after severely injuring them is prolonging the process, which allows her to maintain control over it. That serves multiple functions. One is the extension of her dominance. She's controlling how the harm happens. And two, she gains gratification from observing the suffering of others, and that may connect back to her childhood and that early exposure. She repeatedly witnessed suffering back then. Especially because it was tied to power,

• 17:47Tristin Engels?

  that can create a learned association, where the observation itself becomes meaningful or reinforcing to her. At the same time, this reflects desensitization and escalation, because prolonging the experience can intensify it for her. Her behavior is becoming so much more deliberate, more sustained, and so much more tied to control and reinforcement than it has in the past.

• 18:15Vanessa Richardson?

  By 1607, it was estimated that her list of victims had already reached 200. And now that Elizabeth had moved to Castle Chedda, she had plenty of new burial ground, including the local cemetery, gardens, drainage ditches, grain bins, and fruit pits. It was the most alive she'd felt since her husband died. But there was still one problem: no amount of torture and murder could turn back time. Apparently around this time, Elizabeth became obsessed with her appearance and was known to go into fits of rage where she would smash all the mirrors in the castle.

• 18:50Tristin Engels?

  Well, unfortunately for Elizabeth, the one thing she cannot control, no matter how endless her resources are, is the natural process of aging. She's 50 years old, widowed, and vulnerable to political rivals. And because of her age and her inability to bear children, remarrying is unlikely, like you mentioned, and she knows this. So her avenues for protection, for political stability and security of her estate are very limited right now. And I think this reaction reflects that. It's about control, status, and survival. Seeing herself aging likely represents a loss in all of those areas.

• 19:30Tristin Engels?

  And unlike people or her environment, it's something she can't dominate or reshape. For someone who relies so much on controlling everything, that's a very threatening limitation for her. And that explains this reaction. I don't think it's about vanity at all.

• 19:47Vanessa Richardson?

  Soon, Elizabeth realized that what she loved most, torture and violence, could be the solution to her problem. Most likely, Anna was the one who gave Elizabeth the idea to bathe in the blood of virgins in order to preserve her own youth. For a long time, Elizabeth had already been using chicken blood to cast spells against her family's war enemies. Now, according to rumor, she started draining her victims' blood to keep herself young. By doing so, she earned the nickname "The Blood Countess," because apparently, even though Elizabeth had reached a new level of brutality, she also wasn't shy about what she was doing. According to one account, Elizabeth started attacking her servants in front of

• 20:31Vanessa Richardson?

  household staff members who weren't part of her inner circle. In one instance, a man named Benedict walked in while Elizabeth was berating a young girl for making a sewing mistake. Benedict had worked for Elizabeth back at Nadorjdi Castle. Now he was in charge of security at Castle Chedha. When he entered the room and saw what was happening, he knew that he wasn't supposed to be in there. The girl looked terrified. Not only that, but he recognized her and knew who her parents were. He had no desire to be present for whatever was about to happen, but before Benedict could leave the room, Elizabeth told him to stay, and he had no choice but to obey her.

• 21:14Vanessa Richardson?

  So Benedict watched as Elizabeth pulled out a dagger and proceeded to stab each one of the girl's fingers. And she kept going from there, stabbing her in the hands, arms, chest, and back. Soon, the girl was lying on the floor, barely conscious, and that's when Elizabeth held a lit candle to her hands and burned them until they were black. The girl's injuries were completely beyond repair, and eventually, she died, right before Benedict's eyes.

• 21:48Tristin Engels?

  There are a number of reasons why Elizabeth might have allowed Benedict to witness this horrific scene. And one is a belief in her own immunity to consequences. In that time period, there were far fewer constraints on someone like her. Power was concentrated, and intervention from authority figures, like the king, for example, was rare unless something became significant enough to demand the king's attention. So over time, she may have come to expect that she would not be challenged. And we talked about how her behavior has reduced the likelihood of anyone doing that to begin with.

• 22:29Tristin Engels?

  Another reason is that this has become so normal and so routine for her that she blurred her boundaries entirely. She may no longer actually feel she needs to hide anything that she's doing, especially after so many years without any consequences. She also could have become disinhibited, meaning she is now back into reactionary violence again, rather than contained and controlled violence. And that would mean that she's struggling to regulate and her rational thinking is narrowed. But there's also, again, that power component. Having someone witness this, whether they're part of her inner circle or not, reinforces her sense of dominance. It communicates to others what she's capable of, what her expectations are of them, and

• 23:14Tristin Engels?

  what they're required to tolerate if they're going to be in her household.

• 23:19Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think it's possible that she took some kind of twisted pride in her new reputation as the Blood Countess?

• 23:26Tristin Engels?

  Given that she is back to using violence in this less structured and more reactionary way, I think that it's more likely than not that she was desperate for this new ritual to work. As the Blood Countess, she's required to bathe in the blood of children. When you try and picture that, which I know is a really horrific thing to even want to picture to begin with, but that requires a large supply of blood, and she probably requires it frequently. And in that sense, it seems like this is really more out of desperation than pride, if anything, especially when you consider why she started this ritual in the first place and what's actually driving her desire to do this to begin with.

• 24:05Vanessa Richardson?

  It's not clear whether Benedict actually witnessed Elizabeth drain the girl's blood, but he wasn't the only one who'd witnessed incidents like this, and many staff members had come to believe she was bathing in blood regularly. If that was true, it seemed like Elizabeth was happy with this ritual. But if her desire for beauty was at all motivated by a need to remarry, it didn't happen. And then by 1609, Elizabeth stopped noticing the age-reversing effects of her literal blood baths. She needed to find a new way to appear young and powerful. Soon, she found a way, and it would involve her darkest deed yet.

• 24:58Speaker 05

  The government gets a bad reputation. But did you know that the roads under your feet, the forecast on your phone, the letter in your mailbox, that's all government, too? I'm Professor Lindsay Cormack, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Government That Doesn't Suck, alongside Professor Greg Jackson, who you may know from the hit podcast, History That Doesn't Suck. Each episode, we dig into the surprising story of an American institution, from the origins of the internet to the National Park Service to the GI Bill, and so much more. You'll hear the stories behind them, plus a conversation with an expert who knows it inside and out. This is the real history of how we built the country under your feet, and you'll never look at any of it the same way again. Listen to and follow Government That Doesn't Suck, available now wherever

• 25:43Speaker 05

  you get your podcasts.

• 25:49Vanessa Richardson?

  By 1609, 49-year-old Countess Elizabeth Bathory had killed an estimated 200 of her own servants. Each victim was a young girl who belonged to Hungary's peasant class. For most of her life, Elizabeth killed and tortured these girls for sheer enjoyment. But over the last couple of years, she'd allegedly been doing it so she could drain their blood and bathe in it. According to Elizabeth's dark magic beliefs, this ritual would keep her young, and Elizabeth was in desperate need of her youth, because as an older widow, her country's rivals were coming after her. For a while, she'd believed the blood baths were working. But recently, it seemed like the effects were wearing off.

• 26:33Vanessa Richardson?

  Elizabeth needed a new solution to her beauty problem. Normally, she would have turned to her longtime friend and mentor in all things dark and evil, Anna Darvulja. But she couldn't do that, because that year, Anna suffered a serious stroke and died.

• 26:50Tristin Engels?

  Again, some of this builds on what we've already discussed about Elizabeth's dependence on others for structure and guidance, but here it becomes more acute. We've seen how Elizabeth reacted when she lost a functional anchor in her life when her husband died. She didn't necessarily adapt by becoming more independent. Instead, it seemed to destabilize her emotionally. But losing Anna is slightly different because she's tied directly to a belief system that's rooted in her need for control. So Anna's death likely created more uncertainty about that ritual's effectiveness, especially in the absence of the fact that she has no proof that it's been working, which we know it doesn't exist. There is, there's not going to be any proof of that.

• 27:33Tristin Engels?

  And that will increase urgency for Elizabeth. And emotionally, that may not present as grief in a typical sense for her. And given her history, it's more likely that it's going to show up as agitation, frustration, or escalation. It's likely going to intensify her behavior the more she realizes how little control she really has and how there are very few in her circle that are left to guide her, or conversely, project the blame on. So she's likely going to try and seek guidance elsewhere if she can, if there's even an avenue for that. And she's likely going to become more reactionary just based on what we know about her past behavior, because historical behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.

• 28:18Vanessa Richardson?

  So Elizabeth seems obsessed with control, and strokes are pretty sudden. How do you think that element of surprise may have affected her?

• 28:26Tristin Engels?

  I think it's really going to amplify the flaws in her dark ritualistic belief system that she's operating in. Because no matter what ritual she practices that's going to reverse her halt aging in her mind, she cannot stop nature from taking its course. She can try to alter her external appearance in different ways, but internally, she has absolutely no control over that. Her body can fail at any moment, the same way it did for Anna, her mentor. And that's significant because Anna was the one who guided her. And assured her in the first place that she could control the aging process, that this ritual would do what it was intended to do.

• 29:07Tristin Engels?

  So her sudden death becomes a very real contradiction to everything that Elizabeth has been really relying on and was led to believe from her. It exposes that belief system, and that's threatening because it means that Elizabeth is vulnerable and that some things are simply beyond her control. And Elizabeth is not someone who would be willing to accept that openly.

• 29:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Elizabeth definitely must have felt like she was losing everything. In the wake of Anna's death, she seemingly spiraled into anger and panic. So you are absolutely right. She was more terrified of aging than ever before, and she needed guidance. Once again, according to the legend, Elizabeth turned to black magic. She started meeting with a forest witch who would perform spells for her. And it was this witch who gave the countess a new idea. The blood of the peasantry wasn't going to be strong enough to work as an anti-aging potion. What the countess really needed was noble blood. So Elizabeth employed her four remaining confidants, John, Helena, Caterina, and Dorothea,

• 30:15Vanessa Richardson?

  to start looking for girls from more well-to-do families. To do this, they had to search well beyond the town of Chedah. Part of this had to do with Elizabeth's growing reputation as a violent, bloodthirsty ruler, but it also didn't help that the population of young, available girls was drying up. Elizabeth had already killed so many of them. So the servants searched well beyond that town, going as far as Vienna to seek out aristocratic families who hadn't heard all the rumors about her. Once they found them, the group would sell the families on a lie. They'd tell parents that their girls or sisters would be sent to a finishing school, where they would learn from one of the great noble women in Europe.

• 30:58Tristin Engels?

  Elizabeth is once again defaulting to her status for credibility. Nobility carries assumed trust, so parents are more likely to believe her because of who she is, not because of what she's promising. And as we discussed in episode one, this arrangement is actually a very plausible one. Daughters of noble families were educated through governesses, or they were often sent to other aristocratic households to learn etiquette or language and social conduct. That's how Elizabeth was raised. So she understands the system the same way she did with the priests, and more importantly, she knows how to exploit it. That's what makes this so predatory. She's taking something familiar and she's weaponizing it. That is instrumental, calculated deception.

• 31:43Tristin Engels?

  She's leveraging her identity and her knowledge of social structures to gain access and reduce suspicion. And this is a very serious escalation because she's targeting families of higher status, which is very significant and a very risky shift because it suggests a deeper level of moral disengagement.

• 32:04Vanessa Richardson?

  What can we glean from the fact that she's willing to try and trick people who, in her eyes, are just as smart and capable as she is and are on her level?

• 32:13Tristin Engels?

  I think it signals her overconfidence and, again, a shift in risk tolerance. But more importantly, it goes back to that desperation that I was talking about. She's operating under pressure because she believes that this is necessary for her own survival. And she's exhausted her initial victim selection pool, and there are no available peasant girls any longer because of her, which is just truly horrible to imagine. But it's her sense of power that allows her to believe that she can actually act on this and target elite children in the first place and then actually get away with it. I don't think she's actually thinking beyond this.

• 32:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Elizabeth was taking a huge risk by going after wealthier families, and the risk paid off. The idea was attractive enough for several families who happily sent their daughters and sisters to Countess Bathory's castle. Little did they know, they were really sending the girls to their graves. Between 1609 and 1610, Elizabeth ran this so-called "school" as a new kind of torture chamber out of Castle Ceyda. Girls were shackled together and beaten savagely, and Elizabeth barely tried to hide what was happening. Townspeople regularly saw the countess in the company of young girls whose faces were bruised and disfigured. Things were even worse inside the school.

• 33:40Vanessa Richardson?

  One witness claimed to have seen girls strung up and hanging from the ceiling by their hair. Benedict, the head of security who'd watched Elizabeth stab and burn a girl to death, saw countless other incidents where girls had their mouths forced shut with needles or had their hands beaten to a pulp with a hammer. Bodies continued to pile up, and rumors spread far and wide. Other members of the castle staff, local gravediggers, and regular townspeople all knew that going to the school was a death sentence. But despite her decision to go after rich victims, the countess wasn't worried about appearances. Her violence was becoming increasingly brazen, but there was just one problem with her new

• 34:25Vanessa Richardson?

  plan. Normally, the gossip about her behavior might not have been that big of a problem for Elizabeth. After all, she'd been torturing and killing girls for decades by this point, but this wasn't gossip anymore. Unlike peasant families, the parents of these rich girls were able to do something if their loved ones went missing, and some of them traveled to Ceyda to try and figure out what was going on. When they came to the castle demanding to see their children, Elizabeth sent the girls out in hopes that this would calm their concerns, but it did the opposite. The girls would emerge from the school visibly weak and battered, barely able to stand up or speak. The parents were horrified and demanded that something be done to stop this evil, sadistic

• 35:10Vanessa Richardson?

  countess. These complaints traveled up the chain of local government, and eventually, they reached the King of Hungary himself.

• 35:19Vanessa Richardson?

  When the king heard about noble girls being tortured and killed, he declared that Elizabeth Bathory had to be convicted at once. And so, on December 29th, 1610, George Torso, the viceroy of Hungary, stormed into Elizabeth Bathory's home. He and his men detained her and the four accomplices who'd been helping her carry out the killings. The accomplices were themselves tortured and ultimately confessed to their crimes. And during the court investigation that followed, over 300 people, including the accomplices, other staff members, and even some townspeople, testified about the horrific things they'd seen. Based on these testimonies,

• 36:02Vanessa Richardson?

  the court believed Elizabeth was responsible for at least 80 deaths. But they also thought that number could be as high as 600.

• 36:12Tristin Engels?

  It's unfortunate that it took the targeting of noble families for any authority to intervene, but at least at long last, Elizabeth is being held accountable. And for someone who has never had to answer to anyone until this point, and who has conditioned all of those in her orbit not to question or challenge her, was also taught that violence is a normal way of maintaining control, this moment is going to produce several different reactions out of her. And the first is likely going to be shock and disbelief. The protection that she's relied on through her birthright and her belief system is no longer holding up for her. And that's going to lead to defensiveness or denial, especially if her identity is being threatened.

• 36:56Tristin Engels?

  So for decades, she's been the ultimate authority in her household and in her system. And now, she's being detained, questioned, and accused by someone with greater authority and in a way that she can't control. And importantly, it's happening in front of others. That's exposure, and that's threatening. The same environment that she once controlled is now witnessing her loss of power in real time, and they're even turning against her. In this moment, Elizabeth is losing all control that she thought she had.

• 37:30Vanessa Richardson?

  Nowadays, is torture considered a valid interrogation strategy? Or do you think it's more likely that people will say anything to stop their suffering? We know that Elizabeth's story is highly debated. I mean, it's been so long. So do you think it's possible her four accomplices provided false confessions?

• 37:47Tristin Engels?

  Firstly, torture is not at all considered a valid or reliable interrogation strategy. Research has been very clear about this. The concern about torture is exactly what you raised. Humans are wired for survival. When someone is in extreme pain or distress, their primary goal becomes ending the suffering, ending that pain, not necessarily telling the truth. People are going to say whatever it is to end the suffering. And that can increase the risk of false or distorted confessions. And that makes any information that is obtained under those conditions not reliable. So most interrogations now involve building rapport first because those conditions produce more reliable confessions.

• 38:31Tristin Engels?

  That said, because of what research tells us, her accomplices could have also provided false confessions. That doesn't mean everything they said was false, but it does mean we can't assume that their confessions were fully accurate or voluntary either. What does matter, though, is how that information is evaluated. When you look at their statements alongside other data, like the physical injuries that were observed on the victims, their own personal accounts, the victims specifically, reports of the missing girls, Elizabeth's pattern of behavior over the years, and the concerns from the victims' families trying to reach their children, you see areas of overlap. And to me, that's where it becomes more informative.

• 39:12Tristin Engels?

  As a forensic psychologist, collateral information is never treated as fact on its own. It's treated as data, something to be weighed and compared against all these other sources of information. And in those cases, when the statement or the self-report aligns with other evidence that we have, other documents, it can contribute to a more supported understanding of the full clinical picture. So we look at the, like, we try to weigh everything out in one.

• 39:43Vanessa Richardson?

  According to Elizabeth, none of it was true. In fact, she had a much different story to explain all the deaths. Elizabeth claimed that one of her "students" had killed all the others in order to steal their jewelry and then took her own life when the staff members learned what she'd done. Unfortunately for Elizabeth, no one bought it. She and her accomplices were ultimately charged with the murder of 80 victims. Her accomplices were tortured for their crimes, and in the end, they were sentenced to execution. But the same couldn't be said for Countess Bathory. Elizabeth didn't receive any prison time. Instead, she was basically put under house arrest, destined to live out the remainder

• 40:26Vanessa Richardson?

  of her life at Chedda Castle, which she did peacefully until she fell ill and died in 1614 at the age of 54. After Elizabeth died, she was reportedly buried in the castle's church, which the local villagers were not happy about. There was such an uproar over it, Elizabeth's remains were supposedly moved to her hometown. But Elizabeth Bathory's story didn't end with her death. Today, there are countless ghost stories about the Blood Countess, from her apparition appearing in the castle ruins, to people hearing the horrible screams of her victims, to supposed curses, and even a rumor of a vampire.

• 41:08Vanessa Richardson?

  But the legends surrounding Elizabeth aren't just related to the supernatural. Many people today believe that none of her alleged crimes actually occurred, and that it was all made up by her political rivals. According to some, Elizabeth's finishing school was exactly that. She provided young girls an education who otherwise wouldn't have had access to one. Whatever the truth is, one thing's for certain: Elizabeth Bathory's reign struck terror into the hearts of those who crossed her. And in the end, her tale continues to haunt and mystify us.

• 41:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer. But first, check out this extended conversation between Dr. Engels and Dr. Harini Bhat, and be sure to stick around after for a special preview of Hidden History.

• 42:12Tristin Engels?

  Dr. Bhat, I'm so excited for you to join us. Like I said at the beginning of episode one, we can always use more doctors here at Pave Studios. And before we dive into Hidden History, I would love to talk to you about your background some more and the approach that you're taking to this show. I've been so happy to speak with both of you. And yeah, let's talk a little bit about my background. So I have my doctorate in pharmacy, and I did a further specialization fellowship in oncology, hematology. So this was not my career that I ever thought I was gonna do. This is a second life in many ways. When COVID started, I started posting science videos, and as the story goes, the rest is history, pun intended. But I've always loved,

• 42:56Tristin Engels?

  as much as I love science, I equally love history. And honestly, I think a lot of people think science is boring and rigid, because there is no context. And the context is really the history or the story behind the science. Otherwise, it's just a list of facts. So that's really what I decided to do with my other channel, Today I Learn Science, where I really talk about science, but the history and the story behind it. Because science, as you probably know, Dr. Engels, is dramatic, it's exciting, it's thrilling, just like anything else, like a Netflix series. So I really want to make sure that science is as interesting. But there's always like, that history behind it. So that's why I'm doing Hidden History.

• 43:39Tristin Engels?

  It is diving deep into those stories that I can't really do in short form, and really going into all the theories, all the unexplained, all the unanswered questions, with that science through line throughout. And we're diving back into history with a scientific lens that we have now, knowing what we have now that didn't apply back then. It's so interesting, especially with this case, right? This is, we're talking about 1500s in Hungary. There's a lot of things that they didn't know about back then, that when you're looking at it from a lens now that we can apply. And when there's a lot of supernatural or paranormal aspects to that, do you use that to kind of challenge some conspiracies maybe? Or bring a little bit more of reality testing to some of those theories that people have brought forward?

• 44:24Tristin Engels?

  Is that what you bring to your podcast? Absolutely, and I think that's what makes it so fun is we don't want to, you know, disregard the myths, like say like the Loch Ness monster, for example. I think that's part of the fun is the mythology. But what makes it more enriching is viewing it from a 2026 lens and saying like, hey, yes, there might be this myth or these theories about Loch Ness monster. But actually, the reason why they think there's a Loch Ness monster is a lot of the science behind that lake. And that, to me, is even more fascinating. Absolutely, I think the same applies for me too. When we look at historical cases from so long ago, where there's a lot of socioeconomic things that apply or sociological or psychological aspects that apply

• 45:09Tristin Engels?

  that were not widely understood back then, that we can look at from a lens now. That is a very clinically fascinating thing for me to apply in today's world to cases that we, you know, existed way back then. And I really love doing that in cases like Elizabeth Bathory's case, for example. I love that about your podcast. Now, let's talk about hidden history a bit more, speaking of your podcast. What really stands out to me is how you do that, how you approach history with that scientific touch and looking at evidence with such an open mind and following every path until you can make a determination like that. Yeah, that's something that was really surprising to me, especially when you're dealing with historical mysteries like I do on my show.

• 45:52Tristin Engels?

  It's important to keep an open mind, especially when you encounter a scientific explanation. It's so important to really look at it with a critical eye. Speaking of, I'd actually love to get your thoughts on this because in our very first episode, we deal with potential mass hysteria or mass psychogenic illness. Now, some spoilers ahead, but here's the background, and again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. So it's all about the Dancing Plague of 1518. That year, in the European city of Strasbourg, a woman stepped out of her house, started dancing, and couldn't stop. Before long, people all over the city had joined her, and some of them, the only thing that could stop them was death.

• 46:33Tristin Engels?

  After a month or two of this going on, it finally stopped after the city conducted a ceremony in the name of St. Beatrice. From what you know about MPI's, does that sound like it would fit the bill? Oh, this is really fascinating. I have actually never heard of this case before, which is why I love your podcast so much, because this is just like we talked about. We get to apply a modern day lens to a very historical case, and I'm so glad we're talking about this. So let's walk through it. Mass psychogenic illness, or MPI, typically involves the rapid spread of symptoms through a group, especially in high-stress environments, without any clear medical cause. The symptoms are very real, and they're driven by psychological and social factors, but not medical ones, not like a toxin or a disease.

• 47:17Tristin Engels?

  And by the sound of it, a lot of those elements certainly line up. You described a sudden onset by this woman that spread throughout the community, and then a shared behavior that escalated as more people joined in. The environment is very important to consider, too. In that era, people struggled with famine and disease, and that is definitely a high-stress environment where MPI is more likely to occur than not. But you said this lasted, what, about a month or two? Mm-hmm. Most cases of MPI that we've studied don't typically involve something that's that prolonged or that severe. Statistically, they last a matter of hours to days, and in very rare instances or very

• 47:58Tristin Engels?

  rare cases, a few weeks, especially if it's socially reinforced, which this actually seems to be the case. Typical symptoms, though, of MPI are dizziness, fainting, shaking, and nausea. Not dancing, and not to the point of collapse or death. That is very atypical from what we know about MPI, so that also doesn't quite fit. So that makes me think... Was there some kind of toxin or disease that might have caused this? Because those were widespread back then. But what known diseases or toxins whose only symptom is uncontrolled dancing? Do you know of any? I mean, to my knowledge, I don't. I'm not a medical doctor, but do you?

• 48:40Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, I mean, we go into this in the episode, but one of them, one of the theories that is ergot poisoning from- Oh, that's fungal, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. But I think that's really interesting, like giving more context to the MPI's. I didn't think about the environmental factor. They were probably under a lot of stress. So I wonder if it's a combination of factors? It could be. MPI explains, and this is why the open mind part you were talking about is so important, because this was very real and we don't want to take that away, right? It happened. It was very real for the people involved. And that's why that open mind and that critical mind are very important to hold together. Because all that to say, MPI explains how this behavior could have spread,

• 49:21Tristin Engels?

  but it doesn't necessarily explain why it started or why it was so extreme and why it was so long. And because of that, it makes me think that in addition, there might have been something cultural that was driving this. Like, I don't know if it was maybe a religious or a spiritual belief. It feels reminiscent to something called social contagion, where one person's behavior or symptoms appear and then others begin to exhibit similar ones because their mind and body are responding to that shared social context. And that's especially true in close-knit communities and especially if they're under stress, like it was back then. And then especially if there's shared cultural belief and cultural belief systems.

• 50:07Tristin Engels?

  And that reminds me of something like the Salem witch trials. All that to say, I think it partially explains it, but I don't think it's a full picture. And I think it's more than likely a combination of things. So fascinating. Thank you for that insight. I'd love to have you on the show sometime. I'd love to be on the show. It sounds so fun. Just say the word. And Dr. Bott, thanks again so much for joining Vanessa and me. For anyone who hasn't checked out Hidden History yet, can you tell them where to find it? Of course, you can check out new episodes every Monday on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and on YouTube at Hidden History Pod. Follow and subscribe so you don't miss a moment. Amazing. I'm already such a huge fan. I'm looking forward to many more amazing conversations.

• 50:51Tristin Engels?

  And thanks to all of you for listening. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly does make a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content.

• 51:34Vanessa Richardson?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Alyssa Fox, Sarah Bachelor, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 52:02Tristin Engels?

  And stick around, we've got a sneak peek of hidden history just for you. When it comes to mass psychogenic illness, there's not much you can do to protect yourself. Your mind and body weaponize your own belief against you, blurring the line between fiction and reality until a perceived threat is made very real. And once it has you in its grip, there is no letting go. Before we get out of here, I want to introduce you guys to a segment we'll be doing at the end of each episode called "If It Happened Today." As the name suggests, I'll be looking at the event in question and asking, what would it be like if it happened right now? So let's imagine that on a summer day in 2026...

• 52:44Tristin Engels?

  A young woman steps out of her downtown apartment and just starts dancing. Your first thought would probably be, this girl's on something. And you wouldn't be alone. It's actually been pointed out that the dancing plague has a lot of similarities to modern rave culture. The dancing plague has even been called the world's longest rave. And think about it. People at raves go long stretches without food, water, or rest while they dance. Their movements aren't graceful or coordinated. Of course, there are plenty of ravers out there who aren't on drugs. And soon enough, people would realize this girl in the street isn't on them either. So maybe you'd think as more people join in, is this a flash mob? Some sort of protest?

• 53:29Tristin Engels?

  Maybe an event put on by an online streamer? I'm sure it would come off as all fun and games with bystanders live streaming to TikTok and every social media app. Until the dancers start collapsing. Doctors would take some of the dancers in for testing just to find that nothing is physically wrong with them. And all of a sudden, it would be all over the internet. Endless Reddit theories, blog posts, and speculation. Maybe some fringe religious groups would take it as a sign that the apocalypse is here. One thing's for sure, there would be plenty of opinions on it. But eventually, with what we know about mass psychogenic illness now, someone would realize the truth. The question is, would anyone believe them?

• 54:10Tristin Engels?

  If we're actually thinking about it with a modern lens, like if that happened today, I think the best analogy is Havana syndrome. If the dancing plague happened in 2026, I'm pretty sure scientists would label it as mass psychogenic illness. In other words, mass hysteria. In our current landscape, it's easy to go online and find a viewpoint that supports your thinking. It can be a good way to seek out a community of like-minded people or fall into a dangerous echo chamber. Back in 1518, the ceremony at the shrine of Saint Venus helped the dancers feel like something was helping them, that they had found the solution to their curse. They united around a common cause and found a way through. But could that happen today in 2026?

• 54:54Tristin Engels?

  You tell me, would we be able to harness the fear that started our dancing plague and work together to end it? Or maybe we succumb to it one by one, until the whole world is one big deadly party? Thanks for listening to this preview of my new show, Hidden History. If you want to hear what happens next, follow Hidden History on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or subscribe on YouTube.

• 55:21Vanessa Richardson?

  Happy Halloween, Crime House listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Did you know horror films like Abigail and Sinister were based on true stories? Join me every Sunday this month on Crime House 24/7 for Crime House of Horrors, where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies. From Abigail, The Autopsy of Jane Doe, Sinister, and The Taking of Deborah Logan, you'll find one thing in common: the truth is scarier than fiction. Listen every Sunday on Crime House 24/7, or join Crime House Plus for all four right now, ad-free.

• 55:58Vanessa Richardson?

  Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at crimehouseplus.com. If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.