Oprah and Esther Perel on the 3 Things Every Human Needs to Find Love

In this episode of The Oprah Podcast, presented by Ulta Beauty https://www.ulta.com/, world renowned relationship therapist Esther Perel offers her profound insight on modern romance, and what we can do to feel more alive in all our relationships – not just the romantic ones. With wisdom gained as a therapist and from her hit podcast, Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel, Esther offers frank sexual advice along with her thoughts on dealing with betrayal, life transitions and relational burn out. Couples and individuals will join via Zoom to hear Esther do what she does best: reveal the hidden truth beyond the stories we tell. She’ll also discuss her ingenious conversation-starter card game, “Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories by Esther Perel.” Thank you to our partners at Ulta Beauty https://www.ulta.com/. They want to help you celebrate all the relationships in your life - not just the romantic ones! Share a post, tag your bestie and @ULTABEAUTY and share why they’re so special to you! Ulta Beauty will help pay the joy forward with a chance to receive a ‘surprise and delight’ beauty experience. www.ulta.com https://www.ulta.com/ “Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories by Esther Perel https://amzn.to/45HOhxj” is available on her website, And Esther's books are available here: The State of Affairs: https://amzn.to/3RMIrYj Mating Captivity: https://amzn.to/3RkN7V7 Conflict to Connection: https://www.estherperel.com/courses/turning-conflict-into-connection Desire Bundle: https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Oprah Winfrey?

  It is a joy to be with you here on the Oprah Podcast. And I know your time means a lot to you. So I think it's just so special for me that you all are listening or watching on YouTube. Lots of people have Valentine's Day on their minds this week. And I know that for some people, that brings up thoughts of romance and lack of romance. But my guest is renowned, renowned as a relationship therapist, an expert. She studies it, she knows it in her spirit, in her heart, in her brain. Esther Perel says all of our relationships with our family, with our friends,

• 0:44Oprah Winfrey?

  even our neighbors, have a real impact on our most intimate relationships. So, welcome to the tea house.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Thank you. Relationships are changing rapidly. Modern romance is undergoing an extreme makeover.

• 0:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and bestselling author who's been counseling couples for over three decades.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  You know, it's a little bit like sex. It used to be that you had to be ashamed if you had sex. Now you are ashamed if you don't.

• 1:11Oprah Winfrey?

  I think her greatest gift is her intuitive insight into the human heart and mind. She really blows me away. Wow, I could cry over that. That resonates really powerfully with me. I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen? Absolutely. Her hit podcast, Where Should We Begin?, is a must-listen for anybody looking to better understand the complexities of relationships.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  One of the most challenging things about relationships and marriage in general has been communication.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  I mean, sexual candor is really difficult.

• 1:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Esther sees beyond the stories we tell ourselves. How did you know that? You don't even know her. And she's here to offer her unflinching truths. Say that again. Warplay starts.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  At the end of the previous orgasm.

• 1:56Oprah Winfrey?

  So everybody, thanks for joining us on this podcast. I'm so happy. You're one of the people who is speaking the truth to families and people in relationships in a way, I think, that resonates profoundly and is actually changing the way people see themselves in their lives and relationships. So, power to you for doing that in the world.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Thank you. I try.

• 2:22Oprah Winfrey?

  And may I tell you, I don't know how I discovered these cards. I actually don't even remember how, but I actually ordered these on Amazon for myself. I got them for myself and then I love them so much, I send them out to friends because this is what happens when people come for dinner or come over for an evening and not everybody knows everybody. What I've found is that if you go through the cards and you pull out the cards and you make sure that the sexy cards are not there, children are there. And then I have a thing where everybody pulls a card and then I have them do another card and then another card. We do rounds of people pulling cards. So you have a whole stack of cards.

• 3:07Oprah Winfrey?

  So you don't just get one card, you get to choose from that card.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:10Oprah Winfrey?

  The question that you want to answer. And we go around and around and it is so.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Storytelling nights.

• 3:17Oprah Winfrey?

  It's storytelling. It becomes storytelling and it becomes an opportunity for people to express things and say things. I mean, I've learned things about my godchildren that I did not know. And so, where should we begin? Which is, I know, based on your podcast, you've been doing that popular podcast for a few years now.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Eight.

• 3:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Eight, yes. Yes. So, which is just a perfect title. I love it. And so, where.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  It's how I start many sessions, you know?

• 3:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Really?

• 3:46Speaker 01

  It's like, you sit with new people you've never met and you just say, okay, where should we begin?

• 3:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. And I love this question. I just pulled these for us today. Something I wish I had been told as a child. What would that be for you? Something I wish I'd been told as a child.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  The first thing that just jumped into my head is this. My mother told me that I came from the stork.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  And what I wish I had been told as a child was that this was, there was no such a thing.

• 4:17Oprah Winfrey?

  As a stork?

• 4:18Speaker 01

  As a stork. I was nine years old when I understood that this is.

• 4:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Not true?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  And that it says more about her discomfort with the subject.

• 4:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Than than.

• 4:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Than anything, yes.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Than anything else. And then I began to dig and try to find, you know, so then where exactly did I come from? And when I told her, you know, actually, I came from you, she said, we'll discuss this one day.

• 4:42Oprah Winfrey?

  And did she ever?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Never.

• 4:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Never?

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Never.

• 4:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, that was the day where people were so uncomfortable.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  When people think, and you are a sexologist, and you must have had an, no, no, no, I grew up in utter ignorance.

• 4:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  I wish I had been told a lot of things in that domain.

• 4:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, well, my answer to that. I would say, I wish I had been told that I was loved.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Because I don't, I never ever heard, I love you, or had the feeling of you are loved as a child. So I wish I'd been told.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  It's a very, it's a very common answer.

• 5:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Is it?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yes. I wish I had been told I was loved, I am capable, I'm worthy of something, I miss you. I mean, many things that people want to hear have to do with feeling, basically feeling seen, feeling acknowledged, feeling valued. You know?

• 5:35Oprah Winfrey?

  I know so many people get so much out of your podcast. Why did you decide to do the podcast? And what was your hope and greatest intention for it?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  So I spent thirty five years in my office seeing patients, I still do. And at one point, I started to wish that people would hear some of the powerful insights that occur in the conversations in my office, and not that many people can actually enter the kind of healing that takes place. And I just thought, I have to open the door to this office so that people can hear, not everything takes place in a therapy office. How do I bring those stories to the world at large? How do I create what has become a public health campaign for relationships worldwide?

• 6:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  And. And that was my invitation is first I open the doors and I come to you, but then I want you to actually become a fly on the wall and listen in to the raw intimate anonymous conversations of others. And you will see yourself, if you listen intensely to others, you see yourselves, even if it's not your exact story.

• 6:46Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right, even if it's not your story, you can see yourself in the other's story. So I hear that you now think that modern romance is going through some kind of change or makeover. What's going on out there? What's changed?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  So one of the things that changes is that we are today looking for a soulmate on an app. And the soulmate is the one and only, which basically has always meant God.

• 7:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  And now it's your partner.

• 7:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  And with this partner, you want to experience transcendence and wholeness and ecstasy and meaning, all the things that you actually used to look for in the realm of the divine. And now you want that with your partner. So people say, well, are we asking for too much? And I say, no, we don't. We can have enormous expectations, but we are asking one person to give us what once an entire village used to provide. I want with you what everything traditional relationships are about, companionship, economic support, family life, social status. But now I also want you to be my best friend and my trusted confidant and my intellectual equal and my fitness buddy and my professional coach. And last but not least, my passionate lover. And all of this for the long haul.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  And this long haul keeps on getting longer, right? And then we have taken love, commitment, intimacy away from our relationships with family, with friends, with neighbors. All these other relationships are weakening and all of this is being brought into. Modern love. So, modern intimacy today is me talking to you. You're validating me. You're reflecting on me. And I am momentarily going to transcend my existential aloneness. And modern intimacy becomes into me see.

• 8:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, into me see.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:39Oprah Winfrey?

  That's where we are.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  That's modern romance, as I begin to see.

• 8:42Oprah Winfrey?

  But when you were saying that, I remember early on in my relationship with Steadman, Maya Angelou, my advisor and friend, a wise woman, was saying, do not, your life is a whole pie. Your life is made up of a whole pie, much of what you're just saying about a village. And so do not expect one person to represent everything that the pie is supposed to represent.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Totally agree.

• 9:09Oprah Winfrey?

  So is it, is, so based upon what you just said, everybody expects your partner now to really be what the realm of the divine used to be in people's lives. Isn't that too much?

• 9:23Speaker 01

  I think it is. I think we cannot have one person give us what a whole community should represent.

• 9:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  And I think that we are actually overburdening our relationships. And then we get very disillusioned. And then we find-

• 9:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you don't fulfill all of those things. I'm going to eliminate you from my life because you're, you are not perfect.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  And I'll find someone else who I think can actually meet all my needs.

• 9:51Oprah Winfrey?

  And then that person's not going to be able to do it either. So what is your advice to someone who's listening, who may be feeling alone right now, especially this week? People get so hung up on what the Valentine experience means or doesn't mean, and I don't have, and I didn't get, and I wasn't acknowledged, and-

• 10:12Speaker 01

  I think the, to actually continue directly from what we just said. Love, intimacy, being valued, being cherished. Don't just imagine that it takes place in your romantic relationship. So Valentine us all. Make it about love, and it's the love that you share. With all the people of your life. If you don't have a partner at this time, that doesn't mean you're excluded from the event.

• 10:34Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  And then, how do you feel less lonely? In general, we feel less lonely when we connect with others and we feel that we are able to bring a smile to their face. And suddenly, we realize that we matter. And that something is happening. Yesterday, I was literally thinking about these questions. And I'm walking here in Santa Barbara by the beach. And as I'm thinking this, a woman stops me. And she says, can you help me come down the steps? And so I helped her walk down. She said, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I says, no, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I just feel like I was able to do something for someone. And when I left, she had a smile, I had a smile. And we momentarily felt less lonely. And that happens in small incremental things, you know.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  What happens today is modern loneliness masks as hyper connectivity. I mean, you can have a thousand virtual friends and no one to feed your cat.

• 11:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, I love that. You can have a thousand friends on social media and no one to feed your cat.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Let alone pick up a prescription at the pharmacy, let alone pick you up at the airport, let alone so many things.

• 11:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  You know, but they give you a parasocial relationship with a little like. And it leaves you, you know, not really feeling fed. You're undernourished.

• 11:51Oprah Winfrey?

  You end up feeling emptier.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Emptier. And you teach a course on turning conflict into a connection.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:00Oprah Winfrey?

  And I've always wanted to know, why is it, does it seem that couples fight over and over about the same thing?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Because they're actually fighting not about certain things, but they're fighting for certain things. If you think you're fighting about, then you think that you're arguing about, you know, why did you put this straw in this glass? You know, and now we're gonna have a whole argument about the straw.

• 12:28Oprah Winfrey?

  It's not about the straw.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  No, what people typically fight for, I think, can be summarized in three basic things. It's based on the work of Howard Markman. But people fight over power and control.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Whose decisions matter more? Who has the priorities? You know, you hear it in sentences on the podcast all the time. People say, you know, you don't value my contributions with the children. You constantly undermine me. We are doing everything on your terms. We have sex when you want. We live where you want. We travel where you want. You're the boss.

• 13:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Power and control. People fight for closeness and care, trust. Do you have my back? Can I rely on you? Can I lean on you? And what we hear is, you know, I open myself. I share my anxiety and instead of supporting me, you fly it back in my face. You know, that-

• 13:20Oprah Winfrey?

  You're not my soft place to fall.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  No. And when your mother says things about me, instead of protecting me, you ally with her.

• 13:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Okay. That kind of stuff. And people fight for respect and recognition. Meaning, do you value me? You know, is my contribution recognized? Do I matter? And that is, you know, sentences like, I do so much and I don't think you ever value me. When you want to go see people, you just go, you know, without even checking in with me. Like you're unilaterally making your choices. And ultimately, you know, I had a thing in a podcast episode where they come in and they start to argue because he left the closet door open.

• 14:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  And the cat could enter into the closet.

• 14:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  And now follows a whole fight about the cat closet.

• 14:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Did the cat enter the closet or could?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  I know, I couldn't care less. I don't listen to the story. You know, all I hear is now we are talking, they're talking about the closet, the door, the cat litter, the cat. And all I am thinking is what is it that they're really fighting about? What is he saying? He's saying, you're not the boss of me. And you're not the boss of me means, you know, he had a very dominant father who talks constantly-

• 14:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  And so that's what he's fighting for. He's fighting about the closet, but he's fighting for power and control.

• 14:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Time for a break, y'all. Up next, upstairs, critical advice for busy couples looking to get that spark back in the bedroom. I know that's so common, so you don't want to miss what she says. We'll be back. Thank you for taking the time to be with me here. We're back with Esther Perel, host of the hugely popular Where Should We Begin podcast. We're talking about love and relationships of all kinds. Let's get back to it. We have guests who are joining us on Zoom that I think a lot of you are going to relate to. So let's jump in. Christina and Stefan are in Atlanta, and I hear that you two are very much in love, and you're raising three beautiful boys, four, six, and nearly eight. Okay.

• 15:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Where should we begin? What's going on? Hi, guys.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Hey, how are you?

• 15:32Speaker 01

  How are you?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so things are incredible with us. I love my wife. We've been married nearly 10 years. It'll be 10 years in April. She's my best friend. As you mentioned, we're raising three amazing boys. We're in ministry together, so we're in the process of planting a church. So we do a lot of stuff together. And in our first year of marriage, we're talking about intimacy. So first year of marriage, when it comes to the frequency of it, it was very high. Going into year 10 is still very good, but when you look at all the things that we're doing, the energy that we're exerting, all of the things that we're doing.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  And one of our kids has autism, so that's a lot on her as well. I'm trying to figure out how to make sure she has a lot more in the tank when it comes down to time with me. Because the boys take a lot, right? At the end of the day, she's ready to park. I'm ready to go full speed fast. Yeah. So that's where we are.

• 16:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, you've got the best expert here to help you.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  And your question is, how do I get her to want more?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you know, I'm able to compartmentalize the work that we have to do during the day, and I can have some left in the reserve. When we get to the end of the day for her, she's a lot more exhausted. And I get it, there's more of an emotional toll on her being a mom, and the boys are pulling on her more so than me. But I want her to be able to compartmentalize like I can.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Are you prepared to change tracks?

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Am I prepared to change tracks?

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm prepared to do whatever I need to do.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Wonderful, beautiful. Can I hear from you just a bit?

• 17:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Christian?

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm, uh, so like you said, I am tired. Come eight o'clock, I'm ready to tap out and retire. But I try to explain to him, there is a biological connection I have with the children. I'm a light sleeper, so any little breath is feels like I, I wake up. So I feel like I'm not getting adequate sleep, although, you know, I, I fall asleep early. But um, it's like, I'm trying to explain to him the different ways that men and women approach sex. Like, he can go and I need like a, I need time to build it. And I love him and I'm attracted to him. That's, that's not the thing. But I'm very much aware, our marriage is a movement. I really value that, so.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Okay. Maybe we first switch a little bit the way we think here, right? And that is, very often, when we think about sex, we think about an act and an outcome. Something that we do. And instead of thinking of it like that, I would probably want to switch you to think more about an experience. Not what do you do in sex, but where do you go in sex? What parts of yourselves do you connect with? What do you want to experience there? What do you want to express there? And then you will notice that for some people, desire is autonomous. As you say, I come, I'm ready, spontaneous erection, autonomous, I don't need any prep. I'm, I'm go, you know, but the majority of other people.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Are responsive, what we call responsive desire, meaning they don't come ready. They are maybe sometimes open or willing. That willingness, you know, I'm not always hungry. I see you eating, I'm sitting next to you. It looks like it's quite good, I taste. I'm open, I'm curious, I wanna see where this takes me. Slowly I find myself, I take out a plate. I'm actually eating a whole meal. I wasn't really hungry to begin with and I could have done without, but I'm happy I did it. You know, that's what for you, instead of thinking, how do I get her to also be able to compartmentalize and be ready? I'm sorry to say, it may not work. And she's gonna get frustrated.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Rather than you're understanding that foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm. It's not a five minute before the real thing. And you give and

• 19:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Say that again, foreplay starts?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  At the end of the previous orgasm. Not just, you know, five minutes before you get going.

• 19:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  So, instead of thinking, you are the norm and she's the problem. How do I get her to change? You understand that for a lot of people, it's willingness that gets us going. And that is a wonderful thing. I'm open, I'm willing to see. And then here's the piece. A lot of relationships, male, female relationships, you're going to tell me probably, nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on. Yeah? Yeah, love it. Now, it is most likely that she will say, whatever happens to him is kind of irrelevant to me. Because what is, what gets me going is what happens to her, not what happens to you.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  And that means that she needs to be able to enter into her own erotic self. And that means that she needs to be able to let go of the role of model, caretaking, responsible, making sure that everybody's fine, worrying about the well-being of others. That is the essential liberation that any woman needs to feel, especially when I hear what Christina just said about that biologic Instant response that she has to the kid. It's how do I allow that to recede? And I trust that everybody's fine so that I can finally enter into myself and give myself the permission to think about me and experience my own pleasure. Give her the permission to be slightly more selfish in the moment.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Because desire is that attention on to me that says, I deserve, I can be, I can enjoy, and everything else is fine. And that's how I can let go.

• 21:23Oprah Winfrey?

  I love what you said about where do you want to go? And I saw, I saw something in your eyes. Where do you want to go? And what do you want to experience in this sexual encounter? That it's not just about the act. Did that resonate with you, Christina?

• 21:40Speaker 03

  Tremendously, because my first orgasm was with my husband.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  And I have to get there mentally. I'm being honest, everything before him was performative, you know? And I like that, as Stair said, to make it an experience again. Like, remember, it's something that we share, that nothing, no one else, you know, something supernatural happens. And I feel it when we're there. But initially, it's, I feel like it's a chore to get there. But if I can train my mind to think, where do I want to go with him right now? This is our secret place. And train myself there, I feel like I can, like anything, work a muscle again, you know? And tap into the erotic side.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  But you need to be willing to ask for things. What starts to happen when you're in that kind of a dance is that he says yea, you say nay, and your emphasis is on all the nays, and his emphasis is on all the yays. So it's about you asking, do I want to just relax? Do I want something more sensual? Do I want us to be naughty? Do I want to just have fun? Do I want to connect? Do I want to just be taken care of? All of these are places that we go in the erotic. That have, you know, as you just said, you can do a lot in sex and feel absolutely nothing. Women have done that for centuries. You know, in the erotic, you can do very little and feel a lot. But for that, you need to ask for certain things and know that you have someone who really appreciates it and welcomes it.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Because then, you know, if he likes to give, he likes to make you feel good, and... Even if it's just, you know, small little things, it's about pleasure, not about performance or outcome.

• 23:20Oprah Winfrey?

  This makes sense?

• 23:21Speaker 02

  It does. And what's interesting is, one of the most challenging things about relationships and marriage in general has been communication.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  I mean, sexual candor is really difficult, you know? And, and here's the thing, the majority of people often fall in a trap where they think that they will want more sex from talking about all the sex they don't want.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Okay, you got it.

• 23:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, we talk about the problem, we talk about-

• 23:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, that's why women are reluctant, like, we have a conversation about it, we're gonna talk about it, it's gonna make you want more of it, and I'm just trying to have a conversation about it. That's what you're saying, Christina, yes. Yes.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. I just wanna cuddle and it's gonna spark some, let me go to sleep.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Cuddle leads to other things.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  Fall asleep. I'm just tired, but-

• 24:06Speaker 02

  It's hard to just, it's hard to just cuddle. I try to explain that to her, because I want her. Morning, noon, night, from dusk till dawn. And if she's like, let's just cuddle, there are things that happen to me biologically, as a man, that just don't allow me to sit there and cuddle.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  So, you know, you know, maybe if I communicate that better, like what actually happens in those moments when you wanna cuddle, and things are happening, that can lead to pain.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  I, I, you know, we could, again, communicate better in those ways. That way she doesn't feel rejected when she says, can we cuddle? And I say, no, I actually need to go watch TV. It's not to distance her, it's to, you know, protect my, my well-being in that moment.

• 24:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you know cuddling's gonna lead you to something else, but a lot of women feel this, a lot of women say this all the time, I just wanted to cuddle, and you're reluctant to even initiate cuddling, because you know it's gonna lead to another whole thing.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yes, but you can turn that whole thing. You see, what happens is that then you start to say, I don't even wanna cuddle, because then he's gonna get turned on, he's gonna get turned on, he's gonna want more, he's gonna want more, I'm gonna frustrate him, he's gonna get up, he's gonna be all upset, he's gonna pout, et cetera. Yeah? But, so, turn it around, you know? It's nice that you want her, but it's also- A burden sometimes for her to feel that she constantly is your one outlet with whom you need, that basically in the end she's doing it for you, to take care of you. That's not what sex is supposed to be. So on occasion that is, but not when it becomes, I just want to make sure he doesn't get upset. And you know, then the next day he's in a bad mood because he's, that whole thing. It's nice for you to say to him, I like the reaction that you have.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Maybe sometimes you take care of him, maybe sometimes you take care of yourself. And you do it not in hiding, you do it next to her because it's okay. And then sometimes as she watches you, she may join you. There's a lot of possibilities if you don't fall into the trap of on or off. And afraid to do the slightest move because my God, if he then reacts, then I'm gonna have to service. You, that's the, under the subtext from this dynamic that you, that you described. You know, and then on occasion, when you, you just call him and you, whatever it is, you take a bath together, shower together. You know, something where he experiences your invitation. But the pressure is what you want to watch.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Because you're a high energy guy and you release a lot sexually and there's nothing wrong with it. But you also have three other boys in this house and so, yes, it's very different from 10 years ago. And it may come back after the boys are big, older as well, this is, you know. So how do you give yourself the permission to say, mom, time is off, I take off my apron. I take some time, I transition, I retrieve the woman from behind the mother. But it doesn't have to be the full operation each time. It doesn't have to be the whole production because otherwise you are going to get her shutting down just because she's afraid that you're gonna want the whole thing.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  And that is where the women start to really deprive themselves as well. That's the other thing, it's like it deprives, because she enjoys being with you, that is not the point. You enjoy being together.

• 27:31Oprah Winfrey?

  You desire her and she desires you.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:34Oprah Winfrey?

  I hope this has been helpful.

• 27:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Some things to talk about, think about. Thank you. Best microphones yet. Thank you.

• 27:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, guys. Thank you. Next up is Jen, a married mom from Philadelphia. Jen wrote to us about what she called her past baggage. How is that impacting you? What did you want to say, Esther?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Hello, Jen.

• 27:57Speaker 04

  My story is a little bit different than the last Brave Couple, although it certainly resonates, I think, as moms and married people. And I had written about past baggage, which I'm not sure really is relevant to where I am. But I had been through some sexual trauma as a child and through my teenage years. And I'd say in my twenties, probably spiraled a bit and had some commitment issues in my twenties and thirties. And so my story is I got married a little bit later in life, and I was a single mom. And recently, I made a decision to leave a corporate job. And so I'm feeling very unsettled and unbalanced in my relationship. I guess it's kind of a long way to get there.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  And your question?

• 28:44Speaker 04

  Is, the question really, Esther, is how to feel empowered in your relationship or feel, when you're feeling unbalanced. You know, I was fiercely independent, and I was a single mom, taking care of things. And now I have made a decision that I'm gonna take a year of a pause.

• 29:05Speaker 04

  And it's changed the dynamic in my relationship.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  And you feel the vulnerability of the change of that balance? You feel that you are more reliant or dependent on your partner? And that is not the way that you've usually liked it? Because you've always made sure that you can stand on your own two feet?

• 29:26Speaker 04

  Right.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  And is that fear reinforced by him? Or it's really something that you bring with you?

• 29:32Speaker 04

  No, I think it's something that I bring. I think actually what you said in the beginning about feeling valued, and I do feel that. And I'm lucky that I think, you know, I waited so long to get married because I finally found the right person who I think really, truly doesn't keep score. So it's purely in my head of somebody who's been very independent and trying to figure out how to...

• 29:53Speaker 01

  So this already is a big, it's a big starting point, is your ability to say, "Look..." From whatever happened to me in my life, I decided that nobody would ever have any power over me, that I was going to be in control. Nobody could take advantage. I can take care of myself. I don't depend on anybody beyond a certain level. And I have done this well. And then what happens when you leave work as that position, which was one of the symbols of your independence and all of that, is that you are in transition. And transition is by definition, no longer here and not yet there.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  That's what transition means. So in transition, you are off balance. It is the nature of that change to be off balance. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just unknown to you, unfamiliar. And here is your opportunity. You have a great guy that you know is valuing you, that is not going to take advantage of what you call feeling a little bit more precarious, more unbalanced, more unsure of myself and all of that. This is your opportunity to really do some repair from the diary of your childhood and to actually allow yourself to lean on someone and to know that you can and to have someone show up for you.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  So instead of how do I empower myself, I would actually invite you to say, how do I allow myself for the first time ever to take advantage of this big transition and lean on someone and learn and experience the depth of trust, something I've yearned for my whole life and have never allowed myself?

• 31:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow, I could cry over that. That resonates really powerfully with me. I heard that. Did you hear it, Jen?

• 31:51Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I heard that. Received it for sure.

• 31:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh my God, that was so good.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Where does it land for you? Just because I don't know you, so it just took a leap?

• 32:02Speaker 04

  It's very, it's truthful for sure. And it has been hard for me to lean on someone because I haven't ever done that before.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  And so, and I'm, I feel like this is a gift of this transition that I'm able to take. And I'm, I'm trying to be open to the universe and all possibilities that come in front of me, like getting the opportunity to speak to both of you. And so, I do need to receive it.

• 32:29Oprah Winfrey?

  I thought that was really powerful. How did you know that? You don't even know her.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  No, I don't. Because, because you, you said, I left a big job. I have always been independent. And you kind of said, and implied was, how do I continue to feel as strong as I always did?

• 32:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  And I thought, but this is not about being strong. And then she said, I have a good guy. I waited, and I have a good guy. And I thought, you, you haven't even given him the opportunity to show you how good he can be.

• 33:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  And what would it be like for you, instead of holding yourself up to actually leaning on him? And experiencing, I mean, you're gonna sob, maybe? It's gonna bring back this little girl who fought, you know, to make sure that she's in charge and nobody takes advantage.

• 33:26Oprah Winfrey?

  So you're holding on to that, still protecting yourself? Yes.

• 33:31Speaker 04

  I think probably my whole life, even though I've, I've done therapy in my twenties and thirties, and I think I've gotten through it, which is why I can talk about it so openly. But I'm sure it's still, there's still that little girl in there who wants to take charge, I'm sure.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yes, and, and it goes actually with what we talked before, when you said, what is it that people fight for when they are in conflict?

• 33:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  The people who fight for power and control are often people who did experience various forms of emotional, psychological, or sexual abuse. Because then you, that is your adaptive style. You respond with a strategy.

• 34:04Oprah Winfrey?

  That's how you stay in control. That's right. That's how you stay in control. Oh, that resonated with me.

• 34:10Speaker 05

  So I think your comfort now of feeling safe is getting the strength to be vulnerable.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  It's a gift for your life. It's the gift you've been waiting for that therapy could only offer partially and that it looks like your partner may be able to offer you.

• 34:24Oprah Winfrey?

  And now, you're the one who brought up the universe. And so, the universe has put you in this position so you can do exactly what Esther was just saying. You can lean back into it, you can lean into him, and you can allow. I love those two terms that you used for her. Lean and allow.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  They're very expansive, by the way.

• 34:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Scary at first, but very expansive.

• 34:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Jen, thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 34:53Oprah Winfrey?

  And for matching the walls in the house, for wearing the blouse that matches the chair that matches the wall. I mean, really, the decor is perfect. Thank you. Thank you.

• 35:02Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 35:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Erica from Texas has been married for 32 years, just three adult children. And now she's starting to have some doubts. Are you about your marriage? Tell us why.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Hello, Erica.

• 35:16Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness. Hello, Esther. Hello, Oprah.

• 35:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi.

• 35:20Speaker 05

  Thank you all so much for this opportunity. It truly is an honor of mine.

• 35:27Speaker 05

  Well, like I said, I've been married 32 years. I have three adult, grown children. My husband was retired, military. He retired about 10 years ago. We have spent a lot of time together. We do a lot of things together. And then about eight years ago, my mom suddenly took you. And it was just when our husband retired and we were looking forward to moving away, enjoying our lives. And it's just been a lot. And I look forward to these days. I look forward to being an empty nester. We have two adult girls who are now back in the home. I still have to check on my mom and see about her. I just got a call from the caregivers a few minutes ago.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  What would you like? I almost, instead of saying, what is your question I would like to ask? What is your wish?

• 36:18Speaker 05

  What is my wish for myself?

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Because you carry a lot. You've been dutiful, loyal, responsible. And as you speak, I experience your ache for play, for fun, for aliveness, for exploration, for creativity, for things that are the opposite of, I'm taking care of my mom, my three children, my husband, our business.

• 36:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Been doing it, I'm the only daughter, I'm the child. It's, you know, my responsibility, my duty. And you know what's so interesting? When you watch this, makes me want to tear up. When she asks you, what was your wish? What happened to your face? And what makes me want to tear up is I know nobody's asked you that. Nobody's asked you that. What do you really want? Yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 05

  I don't know how you knew that, but that's exactly what I said to my husband.

• 37:22Oprah Winfrey?

  I saw it in your eyes, and I know Esther saw it in your eyes. But I saw, you were like, because you said, me? What?

• 37:29Speaker 01

  For myself?

• 37:30Oprah Winfrey?

  For myself? Because nobody's asked you that, and you haven't asked you that. You haven't asked you that.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Right?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yes. I, you're so organized around, what do they need from you? And you so just hope that they would stop asking. But you need to ask yourself a different question. And that is really, you've done it all, you know? If you worry about being the good daughter and the good mother and the good spouse, you got your A+. Because otherwise, you know, sometimes we don't have another way that, when we feel trapped like that, sometimes we get sick just as a way of saying, I'm off duty.

• 38:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Don't ask me anything, I can't get up. You know, and sometimes we just think, okay, I'll leave the marriage. And then sometimes, you know, it's really, what would be even the smallest thing today that would connect you with your aliveness, with your joy, with your freedom? Small. What would it be?

• 38:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Do you have a thought about what that would be? Have you even thought about that?

• 38:39Speaker 05

  I love to travel. I want to travel the world. I love walking on the beach. We took a vacation to Mexico and I just loved walking on the beach, just being with nature, just getting out. And we don't get to do that that often.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Okay, forget the "we."

• 38:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Forget the "we." Yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Forget the "we." You know, you start, you have to go with a girlfriend, go with somebody else, go with one of your children if needed. But it's not, don't make it contingent. You see, you kind of, when people take care as much as you do, their fantasy is that one day, everybody will be set, everybody will be taken care of, and then I can go do my walk on the beach. No.

• 39:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Not gonna happen.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  You're gonna go do your walk on the beach because that's what's gonna help you to continue to make sure that everybody is set, otherwise you're gonna collapse. So what do I wish for myself? What's one thing I could do that I would enjoy? You know, how do I give myself pleasure?

• 39:44Oprah Winfrey?

  I could see you get that, Erica. I could see you get that. So let's start there.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  You know what happens? Once you start this thing, it's irresistible.

• 39:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Once you really claim, and you don't feel that guilty, and you don't want to constantly look back to make sure everybody's okay, and you begin to ask yourself, am I okay? Not in a selfish way, because it's amazing how the biggest givers are the ones who worry about being selfish.

• 40:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, I can see that landed.

• 40:14Speaker 05

  Yes, yes, indeed. Thank you.

• 40:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 40:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you so much.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 40:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Erica.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  Thank you so much.

• 40:20Oprah Winfrey?

  After this break, Esther shares the one thing you can do today to feel more alive in all of your relationships. Don't you want to know what that is? Stay with us. I so appreciate you taking the time to join us on the Oprah Podcast. We're back with more profound truths about love and relationships from Esther Perel. Barbara was married for 20 years to a man she describes as emotionally abusive. Can you tell us briefly what happened? Hi, Barb. Hello.

• 40:48Speaker 06

  Hello, Sharon, Oprah. It is an honor to listen to you and be part of this.

• 40:57Speaker 06

  So, yes, I married for 20 years, two beautiful boys. We met actually in law school. And I don't think I realized that I was in a relationship that was about power and control.

• 41:19Speaker 06

  I didn't, I didn't fully appreciate that until things started going not well, probably the second half of our marriage.

• 41:31Speaker 06

  And, and then in therapy, learned that I was very accustomed to power and control dynamics.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  You are no longer with your husband?

• 41:43Speaker 06

  Right.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  And if I understand what you're, what you may be grappling with is,

• 41:53Speaker 01

  it took me a while to see a lot of things.

• 41:58Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  I, the relationship ended, whatever the reasons that precipitated it. And so what often follows from a relationship like this is questions of trust. Yeah, there are betrayals. And then one wonders, how will I trust again? Is that, is that part of what?

• 42:24Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:26Speaker 06

  Yes, it's, it's,

• 42:29Speaker 06

  I'm, I'm scared of, about my ability to know what I can trust.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:38Speaker 06

  Because I've always trusted my instincts, and my instincts have always served me well. But when this happens in such a long relationship, you do question, what did I know? What didn't I know? And

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Was there an affair involved?

• 42:55Speaker 06

  With me?

• 42:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Was there an affair?

• 42:57Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. I think, I think that you're highlighting something that is so, so important because betrayal creates a question of trust. Can I trust people? But it also puts into question, can I trust myself?

• 43:15Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  How do I trust that my perception of reality is accurate when all these things took place that I had no idea about that happened behind my back and I thought I know what the hell is going on? And then I found out I was clueless. And I think that what happens when we start to meet new people, sometimes we would like to know that we can trust them before we start. But trust is by definition a leap of faith. I mean, trust is an active engagement with the unknown. So it's iterative. It's small, little steps. You learn to trust by taking a risk and watching the response, taking a risk and watching the response.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  But if it involves new dating, then I think one of the things that help a lot with trust is that there's something very weird that's happening around dating these days, that we are dating totally away from our lives, secluded from our lives, you know, on an app, in a dark bar. And then when all of this trust has been established, so to speak, then we do the big reveal and we bring this person to our friends and our family, which is strange because the way you get to know a person is by watching them in interaction with other people. So you're going to, that kind of dating that is happening away from your life may not be the best model for you. You bring that person into your life, into your interactions, your friendships, and

• 44:42Speaker 01

  then you watch, and then you let other people give you data points. And look, if your instincts have served you well for a long time and you made a mistake with this person, then the ratio is quite good.

• 44:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Quite good.

• 44:57Speaker 06

  That's heartening to hear. And what you say, Esther, is the dating apps have just, it's not a fit for my personality because I'm wired to be live and in person.

• 45:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yes. Do things with people. You're gonna go, whatever, bike, hike, to a movie, listen to live music, invite that person to join you, just hang. And then you'll feel, and then you'll have a better sense. And you'll know even if you want to see them another time. And you'll hear what other people say. And it's much more integrated into your life than in this kind of sterile thing called, you know, the dating space.

• 45:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Barbara. Thank you.

• 45:37Speaker 06

  Thank you so much, both of you.

• 45:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 45:41Speaker 06

  I appreciate it.

• 45:42Oprah Winfrey?

  One of your most well-known quotes I like so much is this one, that the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. Yes. When did you know this to be true?

• 45:56Speaker 01

  I think I completely grew up with that perspective. Because my parents, both of them, had lost their entire families in the Holocaust. And they were both the sole survivors of their entire family. And really, they had nothing. I have nothing, nothing, nothing, nobody, nothing. And they created families of choice before the world existed. They understood the rebuilding of community. They understood that you get your memory from meeting people who have experienced something like you. When your entire community is decimated, there's not a trace left of the life that existed,

• 46:39Speaker 01

  you need to share it through stories with other people. And so in multiple fashions, they created rituals, gatherings.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  People, people was the way that you that you you you rebuild life, more than anything else. And that wasn't spoken, but there were people in my house all the time and I would hear the conversations. And I I understood that you do not survive alone. They didn't survive alone and they didn't revive and rebuild alone. You need people. We need intimacy and connection to survive from the moment we are born. And that's part of why your question about modern loneliness is so powerful. Because at this point, we're not only lonely, we are also experiencing self-imposed solitude.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  You don't have to leave your house to eat, to work, to shop, to to exercise, to meet people. So you're not just having remote work, you have a complete form of remote living. And that disconnect affects how we feel about life, why we wake up in the morning and our level of happiness and our level of joy and contentment. And all of these things are interconnected. So people and the quality of your relationship, it's not just relationships. They have to be nurturing, good, thriving relationships determines the quality of your life.

• 48:03Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, you've counseled so many thousands of people throughout the world and heard their stories and challenges and relationships. And I'm wondering what you have concluded is the basis for a well-lived life.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  A well-lived life is a is a life where you are able to experience the two most important sets of human needs. Our need for safety and security and our need for adventure. Our need for togetherness and our need for autonomy. The good life is the ability to reconcile these two fundamental sets of human needs. Inside of you and hopefully inside of your relationships. A good lived life is a life that is erotic. That means it's not only useful and meaningful, but it is also alive. You know, everybody knows the difference between a relationship that is not dead and a relationship that is alive.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  That difference is the erotic. And the erotic means curiosity, imagination, playfulness, creativity, exploration, the embracing of serendipity and the unknown. And you can be in your 90s when you meet these people and they're still curious.

• 49:23Oprah Winfrey?

  That's why I thought the advice that you were giving to Christina and Stephan and to her particularly about her own arousal and eroticism was so poignant. Because I think for so many people, they think eroticism is only about sex.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, so not.

• 49:42Oprah Winfrey?

  So not.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  So not.

• 49:43Oprah Winfrey?

  So not.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  You know, that is the, a life well-lived is a life where you feel alive. That is why the importance of the erotic is so essential.

• 49:54Oprah Winfrey?

  I love that. I love that you're able to do that for people. I so appreciate that you were able to come here to be a part

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Pleasure.

• 50:00Oprah Winfrey?

  of the Oprah Podcast. Esther's podcast is called Where Should We Begin? And Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories is available on her website, esterparrell.com. So thank you to my guests, all of you for asking your thoughtful questions to Erica and Jen and Christina and Stephan and Barbara. Thank you all. A very special thanks to our friends at Ulta Beauty for sponsoring today's episode. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.