You Can be a Human LIE DETECTOR (How to Read Anyone!) Top Facial Expression Expert | Annie Särnblad

Today we have a truly exceptional guest with us, Annie Särnblad. Annie is often referred to as a "human lie detector" due to her remarkable expertise in reading facial expressions. She's a globally recognized speaker, strategic advisor to Fortune 500 companies, and the author of the captivating book "Diary of a Human Lie Detector: Facial Expressions in Love, Lust, and Lies."Annie's unique insights into the world of facial expressions and body language offer profound wisdom on how we can build better and more meaningful relationships with others. In this episode, we'll explore key non-verbal cues that signal trust and authenticity, universal facial expressions that reveal emotions and intentions, the role of empathy in interpreting these cues, and common misconceptions about reading body language. Buy her book Diary of a Human Lie Detector: Facial Expressions in Love, Lust, and LiesIn this episode you will learn,How to identify psychopaths, narcissists, geniuses, or con artists based on their facial expressions. Discover the key facial expressions to watch for on a first date to ensure your safety. Uncover the red flags in facial cues that can appear during a relationship. Understand how improving your ability to read facial expressions and body language can enhance your relationships, making them more meaningful and fulfilling. Find out if there are universal facial expressions and body language cues that can help you discern someone's intentions. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1520For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960Want more COMMUNICATION HACKS? Vanessa Van Edwards: https://link.chtbl.com/1231-podDr. Ramani Durvasula: https://link.chtbl.com/1195-pod & https://link.chtbl.com/1196-podLori Gottlieb: https://link.chtbl.com/1191-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you're never going to be enough. Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Bestseller back-to-back weeks. And I'm so excited to hear from so many of you who've bought the book, who've read it, and finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life, 10 years ago, at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life, and the book I'm

• 0:46Lewis Howes?

  glad I have today for myself. Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now, so you can get it on audiobook as well. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  I had a meeting once, and I leaned forward, and I said, "You're a good leader. I can make you a great leader." And the guy's cheek was ding, and I tripped him in my face.

• 1:21Lewis Howes?

  You're smart.

• 1:24Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:48Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Annie Sornblad in the house. Good to see you. Thank you so much for being here.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:57Lewis Howes?

  I just want to share a quick bio about you. You're often referred to as a human lie detector. You're a globally recognized speaker and strategic advisor to some of the most powerful human beings in the world, specifically in Fortune 500 companies, and the author of this new book called The Diary of a Human Lie Detector: Facial Expressions in Love, Lust, and Lies. And already, within first 15 minutes of meeting you, I felt like you have so much more information than I knew you had. By just analyzing my facial expression and by giving me some cues already about what I'm doing and I guess things I could improve on potentially, but you have seen a lot and you've studied a lot. There's actually a certification that you have. What is it called? This, uh, FACS.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  FACS.

• 2:42Lewis Howes?

  It was called, which is Facial Action Coding Systems. And it is a background on scientifically backed, um, micro-expressions and the ability to numerically code 10,000 muscle combinations in human expression. For me, I don't know how you do that because it just seems like, how many facial expressions are there, first off, that we can put words on? And what are the ones that we should be really looking for when we're first meeting or interacting with anyone? Whether it's a potential, uh, love interest, whether it's a potential friend, a business colleague, our partner, a boss, what should we be looking for? And how many, how many facial expressions are there?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's, that's a lot of questions at once. That's really exciting. So let me start off with the Facial Action Coding System, um, was developed, um, by a couple of behavioral scientists, uh, based on the work of Darwin.

• 3:40Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Darwin was, uh, wrote in 1872 about the expressions of man and animals. And he realized that going from tribe to tribe, where people had no connection to each other, that he could start into years and years of going into civilizations where people didn't have connection to much of the outside world. He started to write down and chart and dissect the different muscle combinations in human expression because he started to notice, even if he didn't understand the language, he could see if someone was angry, if they were happy, if they were afraid, if they were feeling, um, surprised, for example, and that those facial expressions were the same. So the work that I'm doing, it's ironic because

• 4:25Speaker 01

  I'm an anthropologist, so I should be looking at culture, right? But the work that I'm doing is hardwired into us. It's the universal language of humans, us as a species. Doesn't matter geography, doesn't matter, um, your age, your socialization, even people who are born blind make the same facial expressions. It's universal.

• 4:44Lewis Howes?

  Universal, doesn't matter what language you speak, doesn't matter where you're from in the world. We all make similar facial expressions.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:53Lewis Howes?

  Is facial expression, do we all make similar body expressions too? And are they different? Facial expression and body language?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  So body language varies from person to person. You and your brother could react differently with your body language. And, um, but your facial expressions will be the same.

• 5:12Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yes, the facial expressions are all the same. So think about it.

• 5:15Lewis Howes?

  So look more at the face, not the body?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Right. So I can talk about body language a little bit when we get further into this. But think about it when you're scared. I mean, right now, I'm a little nervous because we've just met for the first time and we're being filmed. And this is kind of exciting and I've read your books, seen your podcast. So my hands are cold.

• 5:34Lewis Howes?

  Well, it's also cold in the room. I make it cold in here, but.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  On purpose. So, but, but the reality is that the blood, when I'm afraid or nervous, the blood rushes down to my legs and my feet so that I can run.

• 5:45Lewis Howes?

  Ah, interesting.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  When we're angry, it pumps into our fists so that we are ready to fight. When we, human beings, are sad, we cry. When we're nervous, we sweat, palms of our hands in our armpit pits, sometimes on the brows.

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  On the face, yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  When we're aroused, the blood pools, pools into the middle of our bodies. We would not survive as a species if this were not true.

• 6:06Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Okay, so that was like the, oh crap. That was, oh crap, and here she goes. But the reality is that every emotion leads to a change in blood flow and muscle movement in our bodies. And on our faces, we have a physiological response to emotion.

• 6:22Lewis Howes?

  So what influences the emotion? Is it a thought that we generate or a thought that we?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a really good question. So like, if I have a really hot cup of coffee and I touch the coffee, the first thing that happens is I move my fingers back. I don't think, oh my goodness, this is hot with my brain. My body, the muscle movement comes first. The micro expressions perceive the thought process. So I can't, even after my years and years and years of training, I can't stop myself from making micro-expressions unless I change what I'm thinking about.

• 6:55Lewis Howes?

  Unless you're intentional about the thought. You're like, okay, I'm gonna, there's gonna be loud noises. I'm gonna act calm and relaxed, even though my body would probably flinch or react or turn around or see what's happening around me, right? The body reacts based on its environment, sounds, words, expressions, right?

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Right, which is why those of us who've experienced trauma, we get triggered really, really quickly.

• 7:16Lewis Howes?

  Very easily.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Right, and so when I said that trauma, you did the rectangle of your mouth, the tendons of your neck jump. That's, that's fear, that's oh crap, right? That's a response, and you pulled your upper eyelids back. Okay, so that's also fear. We, we make this full facial expression of fear, the macro. We pull our upper eyelids way back. We show the sclera, which is the white above our eyes, and we make our mouth into this giant rectangle.

• 7:40Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Okay, so the pulling back of the upper eyelids is so that we gauge our exits. And the opening our mouth into a huge rectangle is so that we can scream for help. And so what I call the oh crap is just that little piece of the rectangle. Yeah, and it's the only expression that makes the tendons of our neck jump. Yeah, but. So even if I'm looking eye to eye and I see that little tendon, something was unsettling to you.

• 8:04Lewis Howes?

  Now, is this an observation of us, you know, mirroring and mimicking our parents or siblings when we were younger or watching expressions of others? Or if we weren't able to see anyone, would we constantly create this intuitively in our DNA?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  All day, all day long.

• 8:20Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  It's hardwired into us.

• 8:22Lewis Howes?

  So it's not a mimic?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  It's not a mimic.

• 8:24Lewis Howes?

  Because we mimic a lot of body language and languages.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, we mirror a lot of body language and mirror, and so.

• 8:28Lewis Howes?

  We're like parrots, right?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Right, but so if you were really stressed and you come in and you keep puckering your chin because you're having a really, really hard time, and they say, Louis, how are you doing today? And you say, great. And I'm like, oh, honey, do you need a hug? Even though your words said great, you're puckering your chin because you're feeling sad and vulnerable, right? So I know that. Micro-expressions are the very deepest of listening skills. So I see.

• 8:52Lewis Howes?

  You can tell easily if someone's lying based on facial expression.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yes, because the facial expression won't match the words. So that's what we're always looking at. So for example, if you say great, and you show vulnerability, well, you're not feeling so great.

• 9:05Lewis Howes?

  No, you're not.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  You're maybe not trying to deceive me on a deep level. You're just trying to kind of fake it till you make it. Right? So if you say, I hate broccoli, and you show disgust, right? When we have little children, when we have little children, this is what I call, I call the no face. But it's got three main pieces, the macro, which is the big expression. It's got the wrinkles next to the nose, the deepening of the nasal labial fur, and the pulling of the upper lip. Did you have that girl in seventh grade is like, are you gonna wear that?

• 9:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Are you gonna wear that? Like, really?

• 9:39Speaker 01

  So I take the micro expressions and the way that I have been able to advance the field of science is I teach the one thing that's significant to each expression, each emotion. So with disgust, if you just look for nostril shadows, I mean, I speak all these different languages, so my thing is translating. So I needed to take this entire field and teach it to my little kids so they could protect themselves.

• 10:04Lewis Howes?

  Keep them safe, yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, keep them safe. And so we call it the no face. And so if you have deep shadows right next to your nose, that's no, I don't want to. That smells bad. I know, that's icky. And the big expression of disgust actually shuts off our nasal passages up to about 80%. That's what it's there for. But we make that same expression when something is socially toxic. Like, I don't want to. So if you say, Annie, tomorrow, I want you to come over at 5:00 a.m. and we're gonna sit down, we're gonna process a lot of this for three or four hours. And I go, right? Where's, that doesn't mean I don't like you.

• 10:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  It just means like, dude, I don't wanna get up at 5:00 in the morning. I don't wanna do it. Or I've already double booked, or, or there's just a quick no. It's just a little flicker of no.

• 10:48Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  And so if I'm saying, I hate broccoli, oh, man, I will not give you broccoli. You do not wanna eat broccoli. I will not serve you broccoli. But if you're saying, yeah, I'm really happy to do this interview with you, Annie, today. I'm going, oh, honey, no, you're not.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What have you seen for yourself personally and with the work you've done with high-powerful individuals are the three main benefits of mastering the art of facial communication?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  So empathy and safety. So are what I call connection and protection.

• 11:23Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  So it's when we see what someone else is really feeling, we can adjust, we can help, we can love them better. We can teach them, we can lead them better, we can,

• 11:37Speaker 01

  you know, if somebody is really feeling uncomfortable, we know that they're feeling uncomfortable and we can ask them questions and we can offer help.

• 11:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  If someone, for example, is in a mergers and acquisitions situation and you say, okay, so I'm buying your company. I need to know that your technology is going to be ready in three months. And they go, absolutely. And that's the fear, right?

• 11:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  So your body's betraying you. Your body is saying that you don't believe. So do I know that you don't have the technology ready? No, but I know that you know there's some, your body's telling me there's something off with that.

• 12:10Lewis Howes?

  And so maybe it's just more information to say, okay, I could go forward, but it could be a greater risk.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  It shows us where to dig.

• 12:17Lewis Howes?

  Right, let me dig in deeper on that. That's fascinating. Is it possible, like even with you knowing this and studying this for so long, is it possible for you to lie? And get away with it facially as well? Like, or is our body so intuitive that we could say a word and the body is just going to say the true meaning behind that word?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  So a really good spy can create two parallel lines of existing.

• 12:46Lewis Howes?

  It's probably just so uncomfortable. Or you have to disassociate with your mind and say, well, this is for a greater purpose or greater service, so I'm going to act as if I'm this person.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Right, and why it's even really difficult for those of us who have loved ones to act? Because they're putting themselves in, right?

• 13:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Well, and so you're going to, your soon to be wife, you're going to have to have extra compassion when she's doing a role that, that. Demands a lot of emotion.

• 13:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  It's very hard to just take off those clothes afterwards. And so her body is going to believe she's been through that trauma if she's doing a traumatic role.

• 13:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, luckily she hasn't done any like traumatic stuff. She's done a lot more lighthearted like romantic comedies. So it's a little bit, a little bit easier, I think.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  That's a little easier.

• 13:35Lewis Howes?

  But you still have to play a character.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yes, and so, I mean, I think about, and my kids tease me about this all the time because I'm always looking at these different actors and musicians too and going, oh, my God, who's parenting this person? Who's taking care of them? Because when we put ourselves through emotions, our body believes, our brain believes we're going through it. So I found that for myself, when I teach and I'm holding the expression, like, you know, holding full on fear.

• 14:02Lewis Howes?

  Your body feels it.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  My body thinks, my brain thinks I've lived it.

• 14:06Lewis Howes?

  You're in fight or flight.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  And so I would burst into tears the day after, even though there's nothing dramatic going on in my own life.

• 14:12Lewis Howes?

  You needed a release afterwards, yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  So I need a 90 minute massage afterwards.

• 14:15Lewis Howes?

  That is fascinating because, I mean, I grew up in the world of sports and playing football. It was such a switch of a mentality, getting on the field, one for safety, to like put yourself in a warrior state.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  Because it is a warrior state.

• 14:31Lewis Howes?

  I even had an alter ego, you know, an alter ego that I, when I crossed the line, I stepped into a warrior.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Did you have a name with alter ego?

• 14:38Lewis Howes?

  Well, my alter ego was Jerry Rice, to be honest, because as a wide receiver, I was like, okay, more of a visualization alter ego. But I embodied a character of inflicting as much pain as possible on people. That was like a survival mechanism.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And that's a lot for your body.

• 14:54Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, it was like, how can I inflict as much pain as possible to dominate and win?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 15:00Lewis Howes?

  And then afterwards, you know, it's like you have, you need time to like shed that character. In a sense, you need time to shed it to like process.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:10Lewis Howes?

  Sometimes I'd be in like a bad mood afterwards or just like, all right, I need like a night to just sleep it off. And get back to like a loving, peaceful state.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Right, it would be hard to go from there to go on a date and be soft and warm and snuggly, right?

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's like, but yeah, it's interesting, it's challenging for, I think, actors or athletes or musicians who have to play a character night after night. And get back to a state of who they are, I would say.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  And think about even, I mean, so one of the things when you're telling me this, I'm thinking, well, at least you were moving in all of this. At least you had an outlet, so like physically there was some result of this.

• 15:47Lewis Howes?

  And I was tired too at the end.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:48Lewis Howes?

  I was exhausted, so like, okay.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  So if you just, if you're acting and there's no physical piece of that, then you're just stuck with all this sort of nervous energy and trauma.

• 15:59Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  That's really interesting.

• 16:00Lewis Howes?

  So you really wanted to master this, one, for yourself, but also be able to teach your kids on how to be safe. What are the, what are the things you really teach them to look out for? From their early childhood to teen years and then now into, some of them into their professional lives? What were you teaching then and now?

• 16:20Speaker 01

  So the biggest piece is that the facial expressions need to match the words. So, nice to see you. That's disgust and contempt, that's growling, a grown man growling at a child, that's a problem. That's predatory behavior.

• 16:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and for those only listening, if you go to the YouTube, you'll be able to watch Annie's facial expression as you're explaining this, but yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I have them all across my site. I just recently started to put up all the expressions on my website, it's on my socials, it's on YouTube, I'm putting them out, out into the world.

• 16:54Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  So that other people can learn them to keep themselves safe. But the, the main focus for my little kids, when they were pre-verbal, we did a lot of mirroring. You know how you can get little babies, even before they start to speak, you can get them to stick out their tongue when you stick out your tongue.

• 17:09Lewis Howes?

  Raise your eyebrows, smile.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  And so we did a lot of like, I have one kid that still does this, a lot of like crazy eyes. I would get them to mirror, oh, a lot of, and make sounds to the facial expressions. So we practiced the big macro expressions and I would put words to them. In the same way, I'd be, you know, coffee, apple. Banana. So they've never not had words for expressions. And babies know this innately. It's our universal human language. It's the language on which we build spoken language. So our facial expressions are across all cultures. It's a species thing. But the sounds we make for different words are different. But we use that.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  If you're looking at me and you're going, I know that's something bad. And if you're looking at me and your cheeks are popping up. So let me ask you this. How can you tell if someone's giving you a real smile?

• 18:05Lewis Howes?

  Uh, if they're smizing.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Smizing, what's smizing?

• 18:08Lewis Howes?

  Kind of like right there.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, where your eyes are kind of like crow.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Okay, so I can give you crow's feet.

• 18:14Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  With a really fake smile.

• 18:15Lewis Howes?

  The bottom half is not there, yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  It's all in our cheeks.

• 18:19Lewis Howes?

  Is it? Okay.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Okay, so when we're happy, our cheeks pop up. And then this skin is usually flat.

• 18:24Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  And we get smile bags.

• 18:27Lewis Howes?

  Ah, okay, yeah.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  So if we have smile bags.

• 18:29Lewis Howes?

  So the cheeks are pushing up against the eyes.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has nothing to do with them.

• 18:32Lewis Howes?

  Because you can fake smile, but you're not authentic smiling. Got you, interesting.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  So all you have to do is look at the skin right here. If it's fat, they're happy. And that was my four-year-old saying to me when I took them out. I took my kids, we lived in Singapore when they were little. And I would take them out into the world and live narrate, almost like a nature show, in Swedish.

• 18:49Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Because we're so Swedish. So I take my kids.

• 18:52Lewis Howes?

  You see someone walking and having a conversation with each other, you say, they're doing this, they're doing this.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then most of the time I do what you do, which is ask the questions. What do you see? You know, kind of like there's a book, I can't remember what the child's, the children's book is called, but it's like, big bear, what do you see? What do you see? And that's what I would ask, what do you see? And they would say, well, he's showing disgust because she's in her space. What happens now when she says something funny? Well, now he doesn't mind because he lifts his cheek. And so my.

• 19:19Lewis Howes?

  That's fascinating.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  My daughter Emma was four when I was describing all these different points on the face for joy. And she said, Mama, you just have to look at the skin right there. If it's fat, they're happy. And that was sort of the beginning. Of pulling this one piece that was specific for each emotion, which is what I teach.

• 19:38Lewis Howes?

  How many people innately know this? Because you feel, you hear a lot of people talk about like, you know, trust your gut, trust your intuition. But why do so many of us go against our intuition or our gut?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Because we're not taught to believe it. So we are not taught the science. So the Museum of Science in Boston's been one of my clients. It's all scientific. It's all biology. So that's the difference really between the body language and the facial expressions. I can tell exactly what you're feeling at any moment. I can't tell why. I don't know what you're thinking. I'm not a mind reader. I'm just a feelings reader. But it's clear as day. I mean, I should have asked you before I said, like, what, am I allowed to use technical terms?

• 20:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so if a man has an erection, he's aroused. Period.

• 20:24Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  If I see a naked man in front of me with an erection, he's aroused. And I don't know if he's thinking of me. He could be thinking about the guy next door. He could be thinking about, you know, the beautiful model that he saw earlier in the day. I don't know, but clear as day, I know which emotion he's feeling. He's not feeling sad. He's not feeling angry. He's not feeling nervous. He's feeling aroused. Facial expressions are as universal as that. It's a change in blood flow and muscle movement in response to an emotion. And it's clear as day. It is universal. And it is our species, our human species. It has nothing to do with anything else. Whether you're young or old, you make the same facial expressions. In our faces, arousal is a dilation of the pupils.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Our pupils go ding and swell. And that's, interestingly enough, that's arousal for money. That's arousal for greed. That's arousal for romance. So it just basically is swell of the pupils, a dilation of the pupils is I want, I want, give me, give me, give me, give me.

• 21:25Lewis Howes?

  It's desire.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  It's desire.

• 21:27Lewis Howes?

  Power, fame, success, money, all these different things.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  So if you're in a negotiation and you see the other person, you're introducing your deal and you're pitching, and I can make your pupils swell. I had a meeting once and I leaned forward and I said, you're a good leader. I can make you a great leader. And the guy's pupils went ding and I tripped him in my price.

• 21:49Lewis Howes?

  You're smart. Wow.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  I mean, to be fair, I was a woman in Asia and I was charging way too little money for my services. So, there you go.

• 21:56Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's crazy. That's fascinating. Just the little cues that you could pick up on can help you make better decisions.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Better decisions and safer decisions for your money, for your business, for your love life, for your friends. And so when I work, for example, with, every once in a while, I'll go in and work with a family that maybe has kidnapping risks for their kids. You know, that is, lives a very high-profile life. And they want to be able to make sure that their kids know and have words to sound the alarm when somebody's acting in a dangerous way.

• 22:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  And so, equally important, usually I'm brought in because they think, Annie's gonna train them to recognize predatory behavior. But if you're in the public eye, it's just as important to understand who loves you and who wishes you well. Because if we're raising kids to be fearful and wary of everybody, we're doing them a great disservice because as you and I both know, the meaning in life is finding people that we connect to and that we can love well and who love us well.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  Right, absolutely.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  And so, the understanding intent has those two pieces of people that really don't wish me well at all, or who want to use me, or abuse me, or hurt me. And then I want to know, who doesn't care about my money, or my fame, or anything else? They just want me to be okay, and they just want to love me.

• 23:18Lewis Howes?

  How do you know the difference between someone who wants to use you, or take advantage of you in life, versus someone that wants the best for you?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  The facial expressions are gonna tell you every time. So, exactly like what I was talking about earlier, when, if you had met me and you had said, "So great to meet you," and you're growling? No, you're not happy to meet me. Or you're saying, "Oh, I heard you got a promotion at work," and you're doing the bunny rabbit twitch right here? You don't like that at all, no matter what your words are saying. But if you say, "I'm so proud of you," and your cheeks pop up, and you're, you get these smile bags, and I'm going, "Oh." I said something really vulnerable when we just met, you know, we talked for, what, five or 10 minutes before we started this interview? And as soon as I said something about something that was hard, you puckered your, and you just do that intuitively. That's empathy.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  That's kindness, that's, "I feel your pain. I care about that. I worry about that. I want you to be okay." And so when we see that empathy, that person's really feeling our feelings with us. And we do, you talked about mirroring earlier, and we do, we mirror other people's expressions all day long, especially when we're connected with them. So back to that question that you asked, how do you tell, or can you change your facial expressions? I can change my facial expressions by changing the ideas in my head. So I had to fire a board member once. He'd done these egregious things, and we decided as a board that we needed to do it

• 24:50Speaker 01

  as a group because this person was going to try to go out to constituents and try to destabilize the whole organization. And so we sat down and they said, Annie'll do it. Annie's not afraid of conflict. So I started reading this list, and I said, we need you to understand that this is unanimous, and we are firing you for your position, and here is why. And I was growling at him as I was saying.

• 25:14Lewis Howes?

  You were.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Yes, because I was saying these horrible things that he did.

• 25:17Lewis Howes?

  Disgusted at them.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  And that, yeah, I was disgusted. And then I'm thinking, because I know that I've got all these people that I have to get along with, and they're watching me growl like a dog, and I needed to change my own expressions. And I can't create those full parallel lines of thought, but I could feel myself just getting more and more worked up. So I just repeated in my head, loving kindness, loving kindness, loving kindness.

• 25:41Lewis Howes?

  While you're saying these things you don't agree with. Wow.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I got, I got pulled aside afterwards from a friend that had, I'd been training, and she said, you're halfway through.

• 25:51Lewis Howes?

  You switched.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  You switched. And I said, oh, yeah, here's what I did. It was, it's the only way I know how to do it.

• 25:55Lewis Howes?

  It's kind of like thinking, okay, I'm, I'm not enjoying this, or maybe I'm having a, a difficult conversation with this person that naturally my facial expression would snarl or growl or whatever.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:07Lewis Howes?

  But I'm going to intentionally have as much compassion for this person as well. I don't agree with it. I don't like it. Maybe they wronged me or hurt me.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  But how can I also see the humanity in the person and I guess wish the best for them in the future? You know, it doesn't mean you have to.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Which is most of the people, I mean, I just, we just had a conversation about, you know, the people that wish you ill and the people that wish you well, but most of the people are kind of in the middle.

• 26:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  You know, they're just kind of struggling along, which is exactly what you're saying, right? They, they may not be the best person for you to have close in your life. Maybe you don't want to work with them. Maybe you don't want to be friends with them or maybe, but there's nothing, they're not inherently evil.

• 26:43Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  They're just somebody that you're saying, hey, this doesn't work for me. And, and yes, that's, that's how I cheat the system of my micro expressions is by loving kindness, loving kindness, loving kindness.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Compassion, yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Trying to find that empathy because most people are struggling.

• 26:59Lewis Howes?

  Oh, there's a Swedish movie remake that's an American movie now, I guess. Girl with a Dragon Tattoo. I don't know if you've seen this movie.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  I haven't. It's too scary for me. I think there's some, yeah.

• 27:10Lewis Howes?

  The English remake of it, there's a scene towards the end that essentially the psychopath murderer, who like locks people up in the basement and kills people or whatever, tortures them, whatever. The main character goes to the house and, because he's kind of suspicious about him. He's like, huh, I think he's not a good person, but he's in a position of power. He's part of this family business and he's going up to the house to kind of like check on his intuition. And to snoop around.

• 27:46Lewis Howes?

  And then all of a sudden, no one's there, but then the, the bad guy comes, drives back in and enters the house. And he kind of gets caught and he like, he's outside walking around and the guy's like, oh, why don't you, why don't you come on in? But intuitively, he knew like something's off. But he goes in anyways to be courteous, right? He's like, okay, like social courtesy. Okay, I'm gonna go in and just have a conversation. So it doesn't look like I'm suspicious. Eventually, he, you know, drugs him or catches him. He's in the basement, tie him up. And he's having this conversation with him. The bad guy's having the conversation with the other guy. And he's saying something like, isn't it interesting that our intuition knows? But we still follow, we still have that conversation with someone.

• 28:30Lewis Howes?

  Even when we know emotionally, we shouldn't, we should run away. But a lot of us do this in intimacy or relationships. I feel like I've done this in the past.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:40Lewis Howes?

  Where we know we shouldn't be in this relationship.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 28:43Lewis Howes?

  We should get out. Or we start dating someone and we know like, oh, there's some red flags or some signs that things aren't matching, right?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:52Lewis Howes?

  How can we tell either the signs or the flags when we're dating someone? That we should really take this a lot slower.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, can you feel it? You're doing like, you're doing this, which is the crap.

• 29:05Lewis Howes?

  Triangle, the triangle.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Right?

• 29:06Lewis Howes?

  Clenching.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's the fear. That's the, oh crap. Because you, because you know what that feels like and you.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  So is that more our reaction to someone? Or watching their facial expression do that? Like if we're.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're doing it right now as you're, as you're thinking about something that, that's worrying. That's concerning and you're like, and then that was the discomfort, right? They're like, yeah, I remember what that felt like. That's uncomfortable. That's not safe. That's the, and so your face is live narrating your words and it's matching perfectly. Right? So, so your, your words and your facial expressions match perfectly.

• 29:38Lewis Howes?

  But if someone's going on a date or they're, they're dating someone or they're in a relationship. They're like, huh? How do they really know the difference between a, a potential narcissist or sociopath? Or someone who's out of alignment versus someone that could be a healthy, conscious relationship for them?

• 29:52Speaker 01

  So first of all, it's a great question. And, and we know in our gut. I mean, I always point to my solar plexus because that's where I feel it. I always feel like this little almost sting right there. We know in our gut, and the problem for so many of us, especially those of us who've experienced trauma in our childhoods, is that our pain was intentionally, or sometimes not intentionally, dismissed. And we have been taught that our emotions aren't real, and we can control everything. And really, we have this great security system in our bodies that does exactly what you're talking about, that tells us danger, danger, alert, alert.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  And what I am trying to do is get this information out into the public, so that people who are young are able to make safe and healthy decisions about who to align with romantically, professionally, and even when it comes to friendships. So if you and I are going on a date, and say you're somebody who really doesn't wish me well, I can-

• 30:56Lewis Howes?

  Or I'm trying to get something out of you. I don't have good intentions.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Right. You don't care about my feelings, you don't care about my emotions, maybe you're attracted to me, but we're looking for attraction and emotional attachment, most of us. Most of us who want a real relationship, we want those two things. We want the person to be attracted to us, and we want the person to be emotionally attached to us.

• 31:16Lewis Howes?

  Or emotionally committed, or yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, something, right? To care about our feelings at the very deepest of levels.

• 31:21Lewis Howes?

  But how do you know? Because there's probably some, either women or men, who are like going on dates that can act like they care, but they really just want the money, or they really just want the sex, or they really just want to use them in some way for their benefit.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Right. So they're saying the right words, and generally, for most of us, and it varies from person to person, but most of us feel something in our gut. Now, what I'm teaching is the facial expressions, so that you can see and test and get that instant feedback, before you're emotionally attached. Because most of us, six months down the line, will say about, oh, that creepy boss, or the relationship where it turns out, you know, she just wanted me for my money, or he just wanted me for sex, or vice versa, right? That we know it, but if we can see the science in it immediately, we're unlikely to attach ourselves. We see the red flag. So what that does is it strengthens their gut.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  So for my children, for example, if they said to somebody, "Hey, do you want to come over?" And that person did that no expression, they knew the person didn't want to come. But they didn't know why. Or again, if they're saying something nice and complimentary but showing the no face, they don't believe it. They're not believing, their body is saying, no, no, no, no, I don't actually believe this. With romance and emotional attachment in particular, we're looking for that kindness and the chin that you show so often.

• 32:47Lewis Howes?

  The chin.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:48Lewis Howes?

  The chin is a good indicator.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Our achy breaky heart is on our chin.

• 32:51Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 32:51Speaker 01

  So if I tell you something that's emotionally, physically, or financially painful for me, in general, you'll, you know, and just me saying that right now, you're like, oh, that's a lot, right? She's gonna be watching me to see how I respond? Which is totally normal, too. That fits. But if I were talking to you about a child with a learning disability, or a family member that was going through health problems or something, your little chin is working the whole time, because your heart is...

• 33:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm connected yet, too.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  You're connected. And so if we're in a relationship, or starting a relationship with somebody, we're starting to show our own vulnerability, they should be mirroring that vulnerability in the chin.

• 33:33Lewis Howes?

  It's not as much the eyes, it's more the chin.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  No, that's all of our vulnerability. So vulnerability is a piece of sadness, it's a piece of empathy, and it's a piece of love.

• 33:41Lewis Howes?

  Right, wow. That's beautiful.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It's right on my chin. So I describe it in my book, you know, our chin is usually like a smooth grape. And then when we pucker it, we turn that grape into a raisin.

• 33:56Lewis Howes?

  Right. You can see a bunch of dimples in there, I guess, right? Wow, that's a good sign.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  That's a good sign.

• 34:02Lewis Howes?

  And you can't really fake that, can you?

• 34:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:05Lewis Howes?

  It's hard to, I guess.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  I mean, nobody knows now, we'll see if the people all over the world start faking it.

• 34:09Lewis Howes?

  Unless you're like trained sociopath, I guess, and you're just like trying to do that.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  The sociopaths never show it, they never pucker.

• 34:15Lewis Howes?

  They never do.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  They almost never do.

• 34:17Lewis Howes?

  They don't show that compassion, because they don't have it.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  They don't have it unless it's related to themselves getting hurt, and then they show it, because their compassion towards their own feelings.

• 34:26Lewis Howes?

  How can you know if someone has narcissistic tendencies? If you're going on a date, or you've been in a relationship with them for a long time?

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Because they don't show me any kindness.

• 34:36Lewis Howes?

  They don't show kindness.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  They don't care when I get hurt. Regardless of how I get hurt, or regardless of how somebody else gets hurt, they don't show that.

• 34:44Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 34:45Speaker 01

  They don't, no.

• 34:48Lewis Howes?

  They care more about themselves, or they just don't have

• 34:50Speaker 01

  But I know narcissists that will describe something that they've been through that's painful, and their chin will be working overtime.

• 34:56Lewis Howes?

  But for someone else, they probably won't have that.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  No, because they don't care.

• 35:01Lewis Howes?

  But how are they so good, I guess, at captivating you to love them?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  One, they tend to over the, well, the narcissists in my life tend to overdo the eye contact.

• 35:12Lewis Howes?

  So they're very present and connected?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yes, the gaze is long. And then the other thing is that they've learned, almost mathematically, which phrases, which behaviors work.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  So I had somebody in my life, I won't mention who it is, but it's a family member of mine that I just lost it on him. We were living in Hong Kong, and he was yelling at a taxi driver.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  And we got out of the car, and the taxi driver had made a wrong turn. You know, even though the person that I was with had said, you know, turn to the right, he had made a mistake. And he just lost it on this taxi driver, and I was really angry afterwards. I said, "Do you understand that this is somebody who's trying to support his family, working really long hours? Like, this is, you know, a decent human making an honorable living, working hard, and probably has a lot of people depending on them. And you don't get to yell at somebody for making a mistake. We all make mistakes." Next night, we were out, and this person was trying to pick up girls. Puffed out his chest and said, "I'm the kind of guy who's nice to taxi drivers."

• 36:26Lewis Howes?

  No. Wow, the next day? Jeez.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  It's like, this is the weirdest, most surreal experience. But it was, it really clicked for me, this narcissistic behavior, and I knew that this was a narcissist. This idea of, "Oh, there's a puzzle piece and a tool that I can use to impress other people." And it was just so artificial and strange. But people find a way to get their needs met. We humans tend to be really good at that, and if something works for us, well, we repeat that. We do more of that.

• 37:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we kind of stored that in our brain. This worked before, so let me keep doing this thing.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  That whole love bombing and the whole, like, I will tell you, and the narcissists that have ever tried to date me, I call them parrots. They try to figure out what is your thing. So I had a guy not that long ago, I've actually written about it, that was telling me, you know, I've been obsessed with micro-expressions for years because if you can't really connect with people. I mean, he'd seen me speak a couple of times, and he was just pulling all this stuff. And I was lonely and newly divorced, and I almost fell for it, you know, even with my stuff. Because he was so good at the...

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  Speaking to your heart into like your things.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Well, and he wasn't doing it face to face. He was doing it via text. And I kept saying, well, let's just jump on a phone call. No, no, no, didn't want to even jump on the phone call because he knows that I can do poor stuff.

• 37:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow. No FaceTime, yeah. FaceTime, you'd be like, eh.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Didn't want to do the FaceTime, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:05Lewis Howes?

  So can you personally tell the difference between someone who's maybe a psychopath, a narcissist, and a genius? Can you tell the difference based on, and are there tendencies of all three, I guess?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  That's a really good question.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  You can be a genius and also be kind, right? That doesn't necessarily... You can be a narcissist and a genius, for sure. But the genius isn't necessarily overlapping the other ones. There are a couple pieces that I look for. I look for what my kids call crazy eyes. So remember I talked about we pull our upper eyelids way back? You know, we do this, right? So that's a piece of fear. So if you... If I walk into a room and I see somebody, you know, maybe standing with a gun behind you or like pulling out a knife, and my upper eyelids are gonna pull way back. That fits.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Right, if I'm in a scary situation, something scares me, or somebody jumps out, or there's a loud noise, I'm gonna pull my upper eyelids back, and that matches.

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  Like crazy eyes.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, but that matches, but we don't ever in fear, the only time we will pull our upper eyelids back and hold them, roller coaster, haunted house, you know, terror.

• 39:26Lewis Howes?

  Loud noise, yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  We never hold our upper eyelids pulled way back, except when we're nuts.

• 39:32Lewis Howes?

  When you're a psychopath. You just like that all the time.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Ted Bundy, Hitler. Really? I'm gonna get in so much trouble for this. Elizabeth Holmes.

• 39:41Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, your face immediately goes like, there's a lot of people in the public eye, the school shooters, if you look at the pictures of them.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  They have their eyes like that a lot.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  They always like, they're showing their sclera, and there's something about mental instability, and volatility, and I'm not safe, that, and I don't know what it is, and I've done a lot of research, just my own private research on that, but I almost always find that somebody who's committed a heinous crime, and a really violent crime, they're all, almost always like, I don't know, 20, 30% of their pictures that you can find up on the blind, where they're, where they're holding that.

• 40:20Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Okay, so watch the facial expression of fear, the full facial expression of fear, and it like makes me shiver, is it, right, watch when I take the bottom half of my face and turn it into joy or arousal or cheerfulness.

• 40:35Lewis Howes?

  That is weird.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  It's super creepy, and it like sounds all these itchy signals to my brain, but it's, it's out of context, it doesn't match, and your whole body, your whole nervous system knows that when you see it. When I give you the vocabulary to pull this and dissect it, you're going, oh my god, I just talked about this thing, and that person showed crazy eyes, like, almost like they were, there's horror and arousal at the same, there should not, that's the Joker's face from Batman, the arousal in the horror, the joy in the horror, that's terrible.

• 41:06Lewis Howes?

  The joy in the horror.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:08Lewis Howes?

  That's something to watch out for.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  That is something to watch out for.

• 41:11Lewis Howes?

  Now, are people... You know, I guess our psychopaths, are they more like that all the time? Or is that only sometimes?

• 41:18Speaker 01

  They seem to show it a lot.

• 41:19Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  And I, in the, I don't really, it's almost like I'm not all the way to the finish line with that research.

• 41:25Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  I just know.

• 41:27Lewis Howes?

  Something seems inauthentic though.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Something's inauthentic and you can have somebody who is not a bad person, but who is going through a period of severe trauma and mental instability, also have that sort of constant deer in the headlights look. So you have to be careful, all of these facial expressions, you have to put them in context.

• 41:45Lewis Howes?

  You need context.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  And it's not a, like, you see this in somebody, they're automatically a bad or a dangerous person. But they are more likely, in my experience, to be violent against others or themselves. You sometimes see that facial expression before somebody tastes your own. Yeah.

• 42:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  So there's something, um, there's some, you know, serious emotional health issue.

• 42:11Lewis Howes?

  With a, with a psychopath, essentially, yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, yeah.

• 42:14Lewis Howes?

  And what's the difference between spotting, I guess, a narcissist and a genius? And a genius who's actually kind and has good intentions versus a narcissist who is only out for them?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  So that's a really good question and I, um, I'm sort of hesitant because I haven't really thought about it enough.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Again, with somebody that doesn't have empathy, that's a problem. Now, I work with a lot of people on the spectrum, a lot of people with autism, and there's this.

• 42:44Lewis Howes?

  They may not express themselves with empathy as much.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Really misunderstood piece, I, I have people in my life who have autism and have beautiful empathy. And the idea that you can, that you don't have empathy, that's crazy.

• 42:59Lewis Howes?

  It's all empathy.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  They might not, well, and it's, it's a tendency to be overloaded with information. You know, the eye contact becomes overstimulated and I don't, I want to be careful because I'm not an expert. But from my own experience.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  They may not recognize the facial expressions. They may not have what I call situational empathy, which is also in psychology, they call it theory of mind, which is the ability to understand if this person's in this situation, here's how they would feel.

• 43:27Lewis Howes?

  I see what you're saying.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  But if you have a conversation on a deeper level and you say, "This is how I feel and this is why" the people in my life with autism have immense amounts of empathy and kindness. And, okay, well then, how can I help? And I work a lot with kids or have worked in the past. I don't do it as much right now. And my autistic clients are my best clients.

• 43:50Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 43:50Speaker 01

  They are the ones, if I have an autistic client that is good at pattern recognition, and those are generally the ones that I would take on as clients, because those are the ones that I can be most helpful to. They don't do what neurotypicals do, which is this, "You should be feeling this in this situation." They just look at the actual facial expression. This is what you're feeling. So I start with showing pictures and explanation. And I sometimes will have people like color in the facial expressions. Where on the face do you see this expression? And so, for example, I had an eight-year-old that I was training. And then, once we get past the still pictures, we go to videos, so they can see it really, because you don't really know micro-expressions until you can see it live. And I would always train the parents at the same time.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  And I'd show a video clip, freeze it, and the parents would say, "Well, this person's feeling this emotion." And the child would say, "Nope, it's this expression." And I would say, "Child's right."

• 44:45Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Because the parents were so into, "Well, but in this context, they should be feeling this." And that would influence their interpretation.

• 44:52Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Just because you should be doesn't mean you are feeling something.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Right. And my autistic clients tend to be really, really good at that. It's all pattern recognition. And so, they'd say, "But, you know, she's feeling joy because the smile bags are here." Or, "She's feeling the no-face disgust because there's nasal shadows." Or, "You've got the rectangle of fear." Right? No, they're feeling empathy or vulnerability because the chins are raised. Easy peasy.

• 45:17Lewis Howes?

  If you're looking for a business partner or you're looking to hire someone for an opportunity or a job or a contract, and you want to set yourself up for the best chance of success with the partnership.

• 45:32Lewis Howes?

  What are a few questions you could ask someone? To see their responses? And see if it'll at least align with, okay, I'm setting myself up for success. Maybe this person won't work out in this career, or this job, or this business partnership. But I have good enough information where I feel like they're not gonna try to screw me over. And they want the best in this relationship as well. What's a question or two you could ask? To evoke a facial expression? To see whether or not, okay, we're in alignment?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Right, so obviously stay away from in general the yes or no questions. The yes or no questions can be used to follow up.

• 46:11Lewis Howes?

  So you could say it, but then follow up with something?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Right, but I would generally ask open-ended questions. And I would ask things like, you know, tell me a little bit about why you want this role? Or why you wanna work with me? Why you wanna work with this business? And then watch to see that this person is, one, I mean, they have to give interesting answers, right? It has to be answer itself. Needs to be something that is motivating for me, or feels like this person's a good fit. Like they have the skills. And they have the desire, but I am watching if they match.

• 46:41Lewis Howes?

  Their facial expression matches.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  The words.

• 46:43Lewis Howes?

  A lot of people can say, oh, you know, all the exciting things of why they wanna be a partner, or work at the job, or whatever it might be, but their face isn't matching the words. Then you can tell. Something's off, yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  So this is suppression?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  We make that bubble, it's almost like, you know that, the chewing, the people who do the chewing tobacco? So sometimes they take it up, right, exactly. They stuff it in the bottom, so sometimes they put it up top, but but it's almost a Nordic country boy, like chewing tobacco thing. And it's, it's not even a micro expression, but it's this, this it takes so many muscles to make that. Barack Obama, king of suppression, makes that face all the time. It's, I'm holding back. Doesn't he?

• 47:26Lewis Howes?

  What's he hold back on, you think? How he truly feels?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  How he truly feels, or this is, you know, I, this information is not gonna help? Or this is not gonna be received well? I mean, you can imagine, self-control's a good quality in a leader.

• 47:41Lewis Howes?

  Right, but he says, you know there's something he's not happy with.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Right, he's got, he wants to say, it's the grown-up version of this.

• 47:49Lewis Howes?

  He wants to say something?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  It's biting our tongue.

• 47:51Lewis Howes?

  But he's being mindful of that, okay, I might hurt myself if I say how I truth.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Right. Also could be simply if we're in a meeting and the meeting's going over and some subject is brought up and I'm like, oh, I have so many thoughts about this, but I'm not, not right now. So it's just you're itching to say it. So that holding back is such a useful thing to see in board meetings and any conversation. You know, so if I see somebody holding back on what they really feel, that would be a warning for me in a one-to-one interview. If we're in a big group setting, I would pull that person aside afterwards because likely they're not saying it because it doesn't, it's not something they want to say out loud in front of those specific people who are in a group setting. But the person will almost always spill.

• 48:36Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So it's just, it's information telling you, hey, there's something underneath this expression. Let's ask more.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Let's ask more. But I would, I would just generally, the more you know about micro-expressions, the more it gives you the underlying emotion of what's going on. And I think as humans, we like to even tell ourselves that I'm not letting my emotions steer. I'm, I'm making rational decisions. But how many business decisions are made on, I want this. Okay. And it makes sense because A, B, C, and D.

• 49:07Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:08Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  I'm going to justify hiring this person because I really want to. But the micro-expressions will give us that additional layer of seeing the red flag and getting the science to the red flag. It makes it much safer because we, if we see the red flag and we can dissect why we see the red flag, we're going, I'm not going to invest in this relationship. I'm going to stop myself before I get emotionally or financially attached.

• 49:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And before there's some bigger commitment or something. This is fascinating. So, you know, you've been, how long have you been doing this work in coaching and consulting with, you know, Fortune 500 executives and leaders?

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Since I was 28 and start, well, no.

• 49:46Lewis Howes?

  Like five years then, or?

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  That's where you do this with your nose, which is the no face but also like the tricky business. So the wrinkle is the tricky business.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  That's your mischief. That's cute.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it's about five years. So no, I started off with um, investment banking in Hong Kong and then I did management consulting in Sweden. And then when we moved, I got married and moved to Singapore. I lived in a lot of other places too, across Europe and China.

• 50:24Lewis Howes?

  Many years you've been doing it.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Many, many years. I really started when I was in Sweden. I was the only person in the company in the management consultant that could, that had English as my mother tongue. And so I found I could hustle and wheel and deal by, you couldn't, you were generally trained in one thing. Like you were trained in strategy or back in the day we called strategic IT or communications or change management or marketing. And I wanted to do everything. I've got a brain similar to yours, which is like, what can I learn from this? What can I learn from this? What can you teach me? What about you? What can you teach me? What can I offer you in exchange? Um, I like that reciprocity.

• 51:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  So I started going around door to door in this 150 person consultancy saying, can I be on your project? You've got a really good thing. Back in the day before it was Sony Ericsson and it was only Ericsson. Or it was, you know, Volvo, we worked with Volvo. And I would say, if you let me in on your project, I'll write all your deliverables in English.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Will you speak them too? Yes, I will present for you. Because it was at that stage where all the Swedish companies were merging with other companies. And they were going over to English being the, you know, the corporate, the corporate.

• 51:39Lewis Howes?

  Language.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Language. And the people that were 10, 20 years older than me at the time, weren't particularly comfortable. They spoke English, but it was awkward. And they didn't want to do all that, like the spelling mistakes and all that.

• 51:52Lewis Howes?

  Got you. So you've been doing it for a while though.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  I've been doing it for a long time.

• 51:54Lewis Howes?

  What is the, the main thing that extremely powerful leaders want to learn from you? What is it that they're really trying to get? And what questions they ask you to develop more tools?

• 52:10Lewis Howes?

  You don't have to say their names.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  You can see my suppression and my mischief where I'm like, how honest am I gonna be?

• 52:15Lewis Howes?

  Because they hired you because they want, it sounds like, to have more power, to have more influence, to have more leadership abilities.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  They hire me with the idea that they can, that I will help them see under the surface.

• 52:28Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  So that they, you know, mostly focus on...

• 52:30Lewis Howes?

  To give them more success.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yes, and protection.

• 52:32Lewis Howes?

  Right, protection, success, growth.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  What really happens is that because, you know, think about it. Like, you hire me and they, they, they bring me and usually it's, it's just straight on reputation. Somebody from their young president's organization or...

• 52:49Lewis Howes?

  You gotta hire...

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Tiger 21 or some organization that they're a member in or some friend has said she can change lives. And they bring me in not really knowing what to expect and feeling really uncomfortable because you, you get to the...

• 53:04Lewis Howes?

  Because you're reading them.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Right, I'm reading them. Well, you get to the top of the pyramid and part of getting to the top of the pyramid is faking it till you make it. Nobody's good at everything. So they've gotten really good at presenting this polished, poised, like, yes, yes, yes. And, and then figuring it out behind the scenes. Like, I, I know all about that and then, gosh, where's my Google?

• 53:24Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Right? And so bringing somebody in who can see everything, it's like being naked. You know, it's like, I don't want people to see me naked, right? You're vulnerable. And so the initial piece is almost always this, oh crap. Like, this is really, and, and I will often, if it's somebody that's powerful that I think can take it, I will live narrate their face. And they'll say, well, how much do you really see? And I say, well, you just showed fear. And then you just swallowed because I made you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable. And now you're wrinkling your nose in a little bit of discomfort. And now you really realize I'm, I'm reading you. So you're pulling your upper eyelids back in, in fear, but your cheeks are, your informal triangles are rising because you're like, this is the best thing ever.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And they're like, holy crap. You can see into my soul and I go, yeah, but you know, it's fine.

• 54:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Same as everybody else, we're all the same.

• 54:19Lewis Howes?

  So they want to feel like protected and safe, like, okay, I want to make sure that my business or my organization is being taken care of. Do you feel like they care more about that or they care more about influence, power and making more money?

• 54:31Speaker 01

  It's both. I mean, the number of times I will be on the stage doing a keynote and I'll get pulled aside as soon as I go off, you know, I need to talk to you in private or, and, and it depends on the kind of business. If it's a family business, if it's a family office, it can be something like, I don't trust my partner, my cousin, my whatever. I think there's something off and I, I can see the facial expressions. I know this person does that. I think they're stealing money. I think they're doing this. It can be any of the above. They don't generally know exactly what they need from me.

• 55:03Lewis Howes?

  They don't know what they want.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  They don't know what they want and the person recommending me is often not telling them exactly what I did for them. So it's sort of this vague kind of thing and they pull me in and I say, okay. So now that we've got this established, that you're lonely, that you're struggling, that you're not good at all the things that you need to project that you're good at. What are your real problems? And they go, holy, um, actually I'm dealing with this and they'll tell me the real stuff. And the reason I've been good at the strategic advisory and the coaching is because people actually come to me with their real problems that they don't tell anybody else.

• 55:39Lewis Howes?

  They're honest with you. They have to be, I guess.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Right. And most business problems are people problems. On one level or another, it could be with their board, it could be with their employees. It could be that they can't manage to connect with the people that they need to connect with. It could be that they don't trust the people that they need to trust. It could be simply that they're, um, that they don't have anybody to ask advice to. Cause think about it, if you're the CEO, you can't go to your board and say, with this merger, I have no idea what I'm doing. You can't tell your employees that you're over your skis. You, your spouse is usually fed up because if you're a CEO, you're generally prioritizing work. And so they may not be an expert in your business, or they may simply just not care anymore. So to have somebody who's kind of seen it all in terms of business,

• 56:25Speaker 01

  but also I think they take off their armor with me and just say, this is really what I'm dealing with. Okay, you know, fine, let me just tell you.

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  What would you say then are the three biggest problems of highly successful, powerful leaders?

• 56:39Speaker 01

  I think one of the biggest problems that I see is that when you're really powerful, everybody says yes to you and nobody calls you out on your. And so you get deeper and deeper into being disconnected from your organization. You don't really know what's going on. You may have some toxic employees that are absolutely poisoning the water and you don't see it because people aren't telling you. So that's one for sure. I think, I think in general, it's really, really hard to delegate well. And that you, in a smaller company, you can kind of manage to be juggly and holding all the balls in the air. And as you, as you grow, you just can't.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  And figuring out who you can trust and getting comfortable with letting other people make mistakes. And, and then the third one would really be modeling leadership. I think very few people, the personalities that tend to rise in an organization are, leadership is parenting. It's, it's all the same. And so if you're not able to model good behavior and the behavior that you want to trickle down in the organization, that can become very problematic.

• 57:55Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Because the skills that got you to the top, which are kind of elbows out, don't necessarily make you a good leader when you get there.

• 58:03Lewis Howes?

  How many of the people that you've worked with in the past, percentage wise, do you feel like are great leaders? Or they're struggling to be a great leader? Like, what's the percentage?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Well, this is the most, I mean, all humans are struggling. And we're good at different things. And I think that we need to give ourselves more grace, that it is okay. The best leaders I know are very vocal about the things they're not good at. And I do have some clients that are really. You know, when I see them get up and talk, I feel this sense of warmth and pride because they'll say, okay, I'm not good at this, but that's why I have these people.

• 58:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  I mean, that's.

• 58:42Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting, you could be extremely successful in a business and not be a great leader. I mean, it's like Steve Jobs went through different phases where he was talked about as like this horrible leader in terms of his teams, like feared him or didn't like him or he was aggressive or whatever, but he was able to build a massive business also. So it's just, it's figuring out, and then, and then it sounds like eventually he evolved and transformed into a better, you know, human leader of connection and empathy and kindness. But you can still be successful and essentially a bad leader, it sounds like. You just might have, be suffering more.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Well, the other thing is that we're just flawed humans and we're uneven. And I mean, you've talked about this in your books and I talk about it. I'm very open with being dyslexic. I mean, I'm really very dyslexic.

• 59:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, me too.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  And once I started learning different languages, like then all bets are off. All bets, I mean, my.

• 59:31Lewis Howes?

  Has it been easy to learn other language being dyslexic? Because for me, I've struggled.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  So I have.

• 59:36Lewis Howes?

  And I think it's because I can't read from a book and like remember.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Well, that's why I put in pictures for you. That's why I have to have the pictures.

• 59:42Lewis Howes?

  Spaces and pictures, yeah. But I mean, especially a different language I'm in.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  So.

• 59:45Lewis Howes?

  Like learning Spanish.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:47Lewis Howes?

  From a book doesn't work for me.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  So this is, I mean, I think they thought I was nuts because I was, I was telling, I was telling my editor, her name is Sarah, she's amazing. She's held my hand through this entire process and she's my editor and my illustrator and she did the font and she did, and she's the one who has said, you know, just do the big and the hard and do it scarce.

• 1:00:07Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  And jump. And so I, she said, I kind of thought it was nuts when you said, I want the illustrations, I want the doodles. And I said, I'm dyslexic, I need to pause and I want the dessert afterwards. So, you know, I, I want the, the poem and then I want the picture that, that you can kind of.

• 1:00:24Lewis Howes?

  It's beautiful.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Pause and I need lots of space between the lines.

• 1:00:28Lewis Howes?

  Me too.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  And I need different fonts so that my brain can kind of chill.

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  Read it and yeah.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Right. And I, there's, I can follow the lines. And so I think that we give more credibility when we say, this is what I'm good at and this is what I suck at. And people go.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  And this is what you do, right? You show your vulnerability. You jump, there's a piece that talks about, you know, you jump into the cold water first, then you turn around, give them a big grin, and say, "You want to come?"

• 1:00:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  How about now?

• 1:00:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's kind of like if you admire yourself consistently by talking about, you know, all your faults or mistakes or, I guess, inadequacies, then people trust you more also. It's like, okay. As opposed to saying, "I have it all figured out." And it's saying, "I'm on this journey, and here's my vision, and here's what we're creating. But I, you know, I still need a lot to learn on these different areas. And I still need support." I feel like people will trust you more, right? Yeah, a lot of support, yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's this piece of, I don't know, when we're young, some of us think that if I'm polished and poised and plastic and I'm perfect, then I will be loved. That's not love.

• 1:01:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow, what is that?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  No, that's just, that's just a Barbie doll. You know, that's just nothing. So if you create this image of yourself that's super, super fancy, and everybody goes, "Oh, my God, he's so handsome. He's so smart, he's all these things." But that doesn't feel authentic to you. And I love you for that piece. That love isn't satisfying on any level. But if you show me who you really are, and you're dorky and sweet and vulnerable and smart in very interesting ways and clueless and others, we're good, baby. Like, we are good. And then I love you for that person. You feel full and happy and adored and, oh, my gosh, and I'm so safe and I'm comfortable with Annie,

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  and she sees me and she loves me, and I feel love for her back. And that's beautiful, and that's real, and that's into the soul. But if somebody really loves you, if I come and see you when you're lying in bed and you're sick in the hospital and your face is yellow and you, you know, and you have circles under your eyes, and I hold your hand and I love your soul, I don't care what you look like if I love you. That doesn't matter. But our connection and our trust and your ability to see me and my ability to see you, that's what real love is. If we're pretending to be somebody else, we never get fulfilled from love.

• 1:03:04Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  You know, we don't love a child because they're clever and they say the right thing. We just love them because we love them. We love their sweet little souls.

• 1:03:13Lewis Howes?

  You know, they're not communicating to us perfectly. They're, you know, they're crying, they're screaming, they're joyful, they're a range of emotions.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Lewis Howes?

  And we just love them.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Lewis Howes?

  We may be frustrated at times, but we love them.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Well, and that's real. And the frustration is, is, is real too. And it's in the conflict that we learn to, to know each other. There's a Swedish saying, "I conflictenas, de conflictenas, en la shana varanda." Which is in the conflict, it's in the conflict that we learn to know each other. And I love just the way without over translating it. It's when we fight and we resolve and we understand, okay, you feel differently, you express yourself differently and you're showing me what you really, that's real.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  And we can't have a real deep connection if we're not willing to disagree and we're not willing to explain why we disagree. We can't learn from each other. And so I'm only interested and, and I, you know, this, this idea of publishing my diary is insane. But I don't care because I don't want to be loved for anybody other than who I am. It's not real otherwise.

• 1:04:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's beautiful. As a human lie detector, uh, and able to spot lies and spot the tells, if someone has no clue of how to tap into facial expression, reading facial expression, or maybe they're not going to go through the entire book at some point. And you could give people three keys to, I guess, spotting a lie. Or a liar. What would those things be?

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Okay, watch for the bunny rabbit nose. Right? If they're saying a positive and they're doing the negative bunny, the bad bunny.

• 1:04:55Lewis Howes?

  That's a potential liar.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  That's a liar. That should be, I don't like this. That makes me angry. Okay, fine. If you're saying something negative and you're doing that, that's a problem. That should match a negative sentence. Right?

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  So we're talking about spotting a liar.

• 1:05:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, someone's lying. Someone's lying to you. How can you tell?

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Going to body language, there's a couple of things. If you're in Western society, this means yes and this means no. So saying, "I did not sleep with that lady", that's a problem. A no with a not now, if you go to Southeast Asia, if you go to India, there's lots of different head movements, right?

• 1:05:34Lewis Howes?

  Side to side.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  There's lots of side to side. I don't know all of them. I know some of them. But in Europe, in the US, Mexico, Canada, this is yes and this is no. And our bodies will leak that all the time. And my son said to me the other day, wanted to go out with some friends for the weekend, and I said, "Maybe", and he goes, "Thanks." And I said, "Maybe", and he goes, "Yeah, but when you say maybe and you nod, it means you're gonna say yes. And when you say maybe and you shake your head, you're gonna say no."

• 1:06:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  So I look for that tell. That's a really, really concrete tell.

• 1:06:07Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  That's not micro-expressions, it's body language, but it's pretty spot-on and it is culturally adjusted, because this doesn't mean yes in every culture. And then I would watch for the weird words in the sentence.

• 1:06:20Lewis Howes?

  Like what?

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  So going, again, adding qualifiers. I had a guy who told me, "I'm a mostly good guy." And I was like, "Dude, you are not a good guy. You couldn't even dumb saying it." He added the word "mostly". And first of all, most guys won't say, "I'm a good guy", like, "Why are you trying to convince me that you're a good guy? That's weird." But if there's any extra words that just feel unnatural...

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  So those are qualifiers. And then distancing language. I did not have relations with that woman, with somebody that you know well, or somebody who calls their wife "the wife." That's a problem. That's just weird intentions.

• 1:06:59Lewis Howes?

  With "the wife" as opposed to "my wife."

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or Cindy, or Sarah.

• 1:07:03Lewis Howes?

  You're disconnecting it a little bit farther than the relationship is.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  What we call distancing language.

• 1:07:08Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Wow, so being aware of that and be like, okay, there's something underneath that.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  So the biggest thing that I would say is if you feel like something's off, whether or not your brain has the vocabulary and the science to tell you why your brain's speaking the truth, we know it.

• 1:07:26Lewis Howes?

  Do men lie differently than women?

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  So I have friends that will lie to themselves. And I feel like a lot of the men in my life will lie to themselves.

• 1:07:37Lewis Howes?

  The men will lie to themselves? Like, how so?

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  I'm comfortable with this. I can absolutely do this. And I'm like, oh, honey, do you need a hug?

• 1:07:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And what will women do?

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  I think we're too hard on ourselves. I think, I mean, I think women and men are both too hard on ourselves, but men manifested in just kind of plowing through and not pausing to feel the emotions because that, as you so know, as we've been trained, especially in the US, that vulnerability is weakness. And intimacy, there is no intimacy without vulnerability. It just doesn't even exist. So we have to be our true selves, and we have to feel like that's okay. And that's how we feel loved. If we're gonna just show this polished and poised, we're never gonna feel failed. So women tend to be too negative on themselves and put other people's needs first

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  in a way that's self-deprecating and sometimes even to the point where it's dangerous to themselves. We all, if we're... Good at loving ourselves and caring for ourselves and we have, you know, our batteries are filled, so we have something to offer.

• 1:08:44Lewis Howes?

  I'm so glad you're putting this book out there and this work out there, Diary of a Human Lie Detector: Facial Expressions in Love, Lust, and Lies. Make sure you guys get a copy of this. Also, there's the Facial Expression Glossary, which is in the back of this book essentially as well.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:00Lewis Howes?

  We'll have both of those linked up there. This is really powerful. This gives you information and intel to understand if you are safe in relationships, or, you know, if you're in a good position at your work, if you are surrounded by good friends who are well-intended.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:17Lewis Howes?

  You know, teaching your kids these things, these tools are extremely powerful. So I'm really grateful that you're creating this and finally revealing this to the world. So I want to acknowledge you, Annie, for your work over the last, I don't know how long it's been, but a long time of doing this work and now sharing it with the masses. Where it was once for just, you know, powerful people that were paying you a lot, now you're sharing this to so many people. And it's going to help a lot of people. So thank you for this work. I'm very grateful for you. I have a couple of final questions for you, Annie. This one is a hypothetical question. It's called the three truths. So imagine, speaking of lie detection, but imagine you get to live as long as you want in this life.

• 1:10:00Lewis Howes?

  Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want and create the life of your dreams from this moment moving forward. But for whatever reason, all of your work, your information, this book, this conversation, and anything you create, we don't have access to after you pass, after your last day. It goes with you to wherever the next place is for you.

• 1:10:21Lewis Howes?

  But you could leave behind three things you know to be true, three lessons to the world. And this is all we would have to remember you by. What would those three truths be for you?

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  So that's really interesting because the reason I finally put this book out was that I realized I'm mortal and do I die with it? Do I die with the things that only I know? And the answer is no. This book is really a love letter to my children's friends. I've taught my children everything that they need to know. But their friends come over and they say, Annie, Annie, teach us one thing, teach us one thing. So this is everything. This is all the things. And so...

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  I really want people to learn the facial expressions so that they can recognize truth. So they can make safe decisions about their lives. But the really important thing is that when we understand facial expressions, we increase our ability to listen. And we really listen to each other. We can love each other well. And so, one of the truths would definitely be that almost everybody is struggling. Be kind. Because that little, as soon as I say struggle, you puck your little chin because you know that's true, right? You know that you've struggled. You know that your loved ones struggle. And all the people that you talk to are, because you show your vulnerability,

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  they will tell you about their struggles. Be authentic and be true. Because that's the only hope any of us ever really have of loving well and being loved. And then, this other piece of, I think, neurodiversity is a beautiful thing. We humans like to think, it makes us feel comfortable and safe to think that everybody's wired the same way we are. And when we really listen to other people, we understand that we're all wired a little bit differently. Our brains are funky. And nobody's good at everything. We're a little wonky as humans.

• 1:12:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  And it goes back to this pretending. Like, there's no reason to pretend that we're all good at the same things. We build teams, we build tribes, we build families on the idea that we're good at different things and we have different things to contribute. We should be grateful for that. And we should honor it in each other. And we should love each other for our differences. And that's a good thing.

• 1:12:52Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful, yeah.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Was that three?

• 1:12:54Lewis Howes?

  That's three, yeah. That was three. Again, the book, Diary of a Human Lie Detector. Make sure you guys grab a copy. Get one for a friend. We'll have everything linked up with your website, where they can connect with you, social media and all those different things. I've got one final question, though. Curious, what is your definition of greatness?

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  To love well and to be well-loved. That's it.

• 1:13:18Lewis Howes?

  Thanks so much, I appreciate it.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:13:21Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.