#2461 - Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is the United States Secretary of Health and Human Services, founder of the Waterkeeper Alliance and Children’s Health Defense, and an attorney and author.www.hhs.gov/about/leadership/robert-kennedy.html Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  I like them, but if it's just me wearing them, it feels stupid. Why do you wear them? I like it because it locks me in, just locks me in. The only thing I hear is that person's voice, and I can't hear Jamie's chair moving, I can't hear anything else. And it just like makes me really like focused on the conversation only.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  I have ADHD, I have 11 siblings, and I have seven kids, so I can work, I can focus.

• 0:41Joe Rogan?

  No matter what?

• 0:42Speaker 01

  No matter what.

• 0:43Joe Rogan?

  It's a skill, it's a thing to learn, you know, if you, if you're the person that can focus without distraction, you're in a good, you're a good person to be in the job you're at.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:55Joe Rogan?

  What is it like, so, since you've been appointed, I haven't talked to you on a podcast since then.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  It's the best job I could ever have. I, I feel like I was designed for the job, and I just have so much fun. I mean, it's a, it's a target-rich environment, so there's so many ways that you can affect it, and be effective and improve people's lives every single day. Part of that is because the agency was just such a mess, you know, it was, it wasn't doing healthcare, it was doing sick care, and just managing, you know, all of these perverse incentives. And have us spending $5 trillion a year, two to three times per capita when any other nation spends, and we have the sickest population in the world, we have the highest chronic

• 1:48Speaker 01

  disease burden in the world, and we're the best at medicine in this country, but that's when people get sick. You'd rather get sick here than any place in the world, but you're more likely to be sick here than any place in the world. And, you know, and then it was just a big political patronage operation, and it still is, and, you know, we're putting an end to that now. I mean, the amount of fraud that goes through that place, we lose just in Medicare $100 billion a year.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  And it's all just this really, you know, shocking blatant fraud where that's become industrialized. I mean, there is foreign nations like Russia, everybody's heard of Somalia, but also Cuba, has this operation in Florida where it's, um, where they open up these little, um, they open up, um, these, these P O. Boxes for durable medical equipment is like knee braces and wheelchairs. And then they don't have any knee brace or wheelchairs, but they have patient identification numbers. So they just claim to be shipping them to people.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  And we found one hotel, it had like 129 rooms and everyone was a different company that was selling durable medical equipment. And we go in and shut them down and they immediately go back to Cuba. And the whole thing is apparently run by the Cuban government, but Russia's doing the same thing with hospices in. Where do they get the patient I D. Numbers? They get, they can buy those numbers, you know, they on the black market. Really? Yeah. And Russia does the same thing, um, in Los Angeles with hospice care. So there's, there's more hospice care in Los Angeles than the entire rest of the country

• 3:52Speaker 01

  combined. It's all fraudulent. And we're just pumping hundreds of millions of dollars into these fraudulent operations, the same thing that the Somalis did in, in Ethiopia. A lot of that money was going back to Boko Haram and, you know, terror groups over there. But they were, it was a lot of it, it was based, the Medicare stuff is different and we're, we're able to, we're going to be able to catch almost all of that now because we're using A I. To do it. It was never used before. There was no effort at program integrity. In fact, the Biden administration deliberately purposely ordered them, they ended the program

• 4:34Speaker 01

  integrity office. So they went from hundreds of people to six people. And they said, we don't want you doing program integrity. We just want you doing enrollments. And so we got all this fraud. It was, most of it came from these waivers that the states got, all the states got them for home care and community care. So, you know, thirty years ago, Medicaid, Medicare played, if you got a hernia operation, we paid for that. And you could tell if somebody got the hernia operation because they had this car, they used a licensed nurse, they used a licensed doctor, it was all documented.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Then they, some of the states said, you know, we're sending a whole lot of people to the hospital and if, and we don't have home care providers. So if you, if we, if you let us pay family members to do home care, the patient won't have to go to the hospital, they won't have to go to the emergency room, and we'll save a lot of money. So it was well-intentioned, but then what happened is people immediately started abusing it. So today, if you, these are services that are normally played by family members, performed by family members. Buying groceries for your grandmother and bringing them home, you now get paid for that.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Balancing your grandmother's checkbook, driving her to a, to a medical visit. So, so then you had this, you know, organized fraud where, and this is what happened in Minnesota. These, these organized crime companies would come in and say, you designate this family, this, you designate, all your children have autism now, even if they didn't. And we're gonna now pay providers for each of them and we'll give you a few thousand dollars to do it. But then they would collect all the money, and that's what was happening. It was happening all over the country because there was no, it's very, very difficult.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  The guardrails on that system were very pervious and anybody can defraud it. If you are inclined to defraud, this was, you know, this was an irresistible opportunity.

• 6:56Joe Rogan?

  How long was this going on for? Like, when did this fraud begin, do you believe?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  It really accelerated during the Biden administration. We expected to pay for the Minnesota program just for autism care for kids who have autism. The kids need the care because, you know, they go to maybe a special school, but then they come home from school and the parents aren't there because they're working. So who's going to take care of them? So in legitimate circumstances, you would want to pay for that. But what happened is they just started this wholesale fraud. We expected the cost of that program to be about $3 million a year in Minnesota, in Minneapolis.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  It got up in over a three-year period, it got up to $400 million a year. So, you know, it was all fraudulent, almost.

• 7:49Joe Rogan?

  I just don't understand. So this accelerated during the Biden administration? But when did it begin? Like, how long has it been going on?

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Because they stopped doing program integrity. They told, specifically, they told people in my agency, and I've talked to them, we don't want to do program integrity anymore. We now just want to focus everything on enrollments. In other words, enrolling more people in Obamacare and the programs. And, you know, you could say there was bad motives there because, one, the states don't pay, the states pay a tiny fraction of it, but it's all, goes to the federal government. So the states don't really want to do fraud detection because all that money is coming into their state. And then every time you enroll somebody, you're registering them to vote.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  And so, you know, they may have had ulterior motives, let me put it that way. But, you know, right now, what we're doing is we're saying to the states, we have audited you. We expect that, we believe that 50%

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Of the program dollars you're spending were fraudulent or possibly fraudulent. You show us a corrective action that you're going to take or we're going to withdraw that money the next time. The money's not being withdrawn from individuals. We're not reimbursing the state for it until they told us. Now, the red states have all said, yeah, we'll do it. But Maine, Minnesota, California, and New York have said, no, we're not going to. Basically, they sent us corrective action that was just, you know, it was ridiculous.

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• 12:52Joe Rogan?

  So, is there financial incentive? Are these people that are making all this money from fraud, are they donating to any specific groups?

• 13:05Joe Rogan?

  Like is there a direct turnaround?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  The Cubans in Florida, and Florida, you know, they get mad at Trump because they say, oh, all the states you're designating are blue states. That's just because the blue states refuse to cooperate. But Florida's a red state, and we're really going after them. We're shutting down all durable medical equipment, reimbursements for the whole state, because it was all being run, it was probably being run by the Cuban government, because this is-

• 13:33Joe Rogan?

  But I don't understand how no one saw it. No one from the government saw it, and would there be a reason why they weren't looking for it, other than they just wanted, they were only thinking about recruitments? But were they also, was anybody making money outside of these crime organizations?

• 13:50Speaker 01

  I would say no. The money was not, the states were making money.

• 13:54Joe Rogan?

  Right, but there was a lot of talk online about donations to parties, and donations to NGOs, and don-

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Well, that, that is probably true, too, although I don't have any evidence of that.

• 14:06Joe Rogan?

  No evidence, okay. So, it really just ramped-

• 14:10Speaker 01

  And you wouldn't have, you know, even if you get those kind of donations, it's not the kind of proof that I would talk about, because you cannot prove that-

• 14:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  That that donation, you know, motivated the bad behavior.

• 14:22Joe Rogan?

  But it just, it really highlights how ideologically captured some people are, that because it's the right wing going after this Medicaid fraud, that somehow or another, that fraud is okay, and that fraud's not that big a deal, that there's, who, I mean, like, what's the all-told number that's been stolen from, from this stuff, over the, if you had to take a wild guess?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  I, it's at least a hundred billion dollars a year.

• 14:48Joe Rogan?

  A hundred billion a year?

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Just from Medicaid and Medicare.

• 14:52Joe Rogan?

  That, that anybody would not want to stop that kind of crime, because it's attached to the wrong party, is, it just shows you how weird this country is right now.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, listen-

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I was a Democrat my whole life. And, you know, one of the thing, and then I, you know. What are you now? Now, I'm kind of, first of all, I, it's illegal for me now to vote in any state. So, I don't really have a party affiliation because, you know, they challenge, I was a New York State resident. When I was running, they sued me and they said, "Oh, you don't really live in New York. You live in California." I said, "Yeah, but my driver's license is from New York, my law license is from New York, I have an address in New York, my car is registered in New York, my falconry license is in New York, my hunting license is in New York, my fishing license is in New York." And I intend to return to New York.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  And there were hundreds of cases, just black letter laws, saying, "The only measure is if you intend to return there at some point." We got crooked judges and they said, "No, you're not a New York resident." I'd already said, "I'm not a California resident. I don't intend to stay there." So, now, I'm not, you know, I'm not legally allowed to vote in any state. But, you know, I saw this with a party, my father hated partisanship because he thought it was dishonest. And he said, he always told us, "You should vote for the man, not the party." You know, he said, "The man" because at that time it was predominantly "man."

• 16:34Speaker 01

  But I saw this when Trump, you know, I grew up in a Democratic Party that was very anti-NAFTA. So, it was against working people on labor unions. Then Trump said that he was anti-NAFTA. All of a sudden, the Democratic Party was for NAFTA. And that's what turned my head the first time. And then, you know, when I was, then I saw how they, when Trump questioned vaccines during the 2016 election, the Democratic Party, it was kind of that skepticism and the concerns were spread evenly across the party.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  My uncle Ted Kennedy was very much on the side of medical freedom. And it was evenly spread, but as soon as Trump said that, it became part of the dogma of that party. And then, you know, when I ran, we were, you know, it was, one of the things I ran against was the Ukraine war. And, um, and the Democrats were always the anti-war party. As soon as Trump questioned that war, they became the pro-war party and they invited the CIA director to speak at the Democratic convention. And it just is, it's the, the, the party's only agenda is, we hate Trump and anything he says, we're gonna do the opposite of it.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  And I, it makes me very sad for the party. And I don't think it's a sustainable way to, you know, to operate.

• 18:07Joe Rogan?

  No, there, there, there has to be some sort of an appeal to people in the middle that left when things went crazy. Just let us know you're not crazy anymore. Let us know you've abandoned a lot of this crazy stuff. And also, like, recognize what's good for everybody, right? Hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud is not good for any of us, the whole country. So, we should all be together on this one thing, like, this is terrible. This is stealing from your tax money, all of our tax money.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:36Joe Rogan?

  Us, American citizens. We should all be united on stopping any kind of fraud. Forget about who, who's the fucking president and what, what's, who's gonna get responsibility for it? Who's gonna take, who's gonna get the accolades? Like, who cares? Stop fraud. Stop, we're all together. You shouldn't have criminals from other countries living here, just stealing money from Medicaid. That seems like that should be a bipartisan issue in a rational society.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, on the, you know, I saw this, the craziness, when we did the Tylenol findings. Because, you know, the science is really clear that, and there were, there are dozens, I read 76 studies over a weekend, and when, you know, when we were looking at this. And the, the studies that support Tylenol's safety are very weak and they have huge holes in them. There's overwhelming science that says you shouldn't take it particularly, you know, it's okay normally.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  You shouldn't take it during pregnancy and particularly the last days of pregnancy or in the perinatal period, perinatal period, which is immediately after pregnancy. You don't want to take it because the association with Tylenol usage at that point and neurodevelopmental disease is very, very high and, and, and pretty clear. And so we issued a warning, we didn't ban Tylenol, we just sent a letter out to all doctors saying be careful about, um, we, we didn't want to ban it during pregnancy because as bad as it is, it's the best thing. It's better than taking ibuprofen or, or aspirin.

• 20:23Joe Rogan?

  Why, why is aspirin bad?

• 20:25Speaker 01

  They have, because of Ries syndrome. It has a clear association with Ries syndrome and they all have problems.

• 20:31Joe Rogan?

  What is that word, Ries syndrome?

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Ries, R-E-Y-E-S.

• 20:35Joe Rogan?

  What is that?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  It's, um, I, I, I'm not sure exactly what it does.

• 20:41Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, put that into our wonderful sponsor, Perplexity.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And if you put aspirin use and Ries syndrome, you'll, you'll see the.

• 20:48Joe Rogan?

  So is this just with pregnant women or with people in general?

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, for pregnant and pregnancy or young children.

• 20:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well, so baby aspirin? Didn't they always used to have children's aspirin?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if they do it anymore.

• 20:58Joe Rogan?

  Ries syndrome is a rare but serious condition causing sudden brain swelling and liver damage primarily in children and teens recovering from viral infections like flu or chickenpox become very rare due to reduced aspirin use in kids. Wow, aspirin.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:14Joe Rogan?

  I always thought of aspirin as like the most natural and healthy out of all those things that you take for pain.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Oh, I think it is pretty safe, but it's, um.

• 21:24Joe Rogan?

  Avoid aspirin and what's that word? You say it.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Celisia.

• 21:30Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Celisia containing meds.

• 21:32Joe Rogan?

  Celisia containing meds in children, teens with flu, chickenpox or cold, use acetaminophen or ibuprofen instead, vaccinate against flu and chickenpox and screen newborns for metabolic risks. So it's, acetaminophen is the issue in Tylenol, right?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:48Joe Rogan?

  Cause I read this terrible story about a lady who died during COVID because she did not from COVID, from Tylenol, she just kept taking Tylenol.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Well, Tylenol shuts down your liver if you take it out of it.

• 21:59Joe Rogan?

  That's what happened to her.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  But what I was saying is, you know, when we issued this warning. It was immediately condemned by the Democrats. Oh, you know, here's Trump and Kennedy doing, you know, weird science again. And then you had all of these videos, these viral videos on TikTok of pregnant women eating Tylenol.

• 22:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, to say fuck Trump. It's crazy. I hope they didn't really do it. I hope they're pretending. Because that's so dumb. It's just so stu- why would you even want to risk that? Like, how is that not a thing that you just abandon all party affiliation? And go, the health of my child, this is science. They're not saying, don't take Tylenol. Like, you could still buy Tylenol. It's a good thing to know that if you take too much of something, it's bad. There's a lot of things that are fine if you take one or two pills. But if you're the poor lady with COVID, if you just keep taking it over and over and over again, you'll die. We should know that. It doesn't mean you shouldn't take aspirin or you shouldn't take Tylenol. But it just means know when to take it and when not to take it. And know how much to take.

• 23:07Joe Rogan?

  Like, that's all information that everybody should want to be out there. The fact that people want to connect that to Trump, and I'm going to take aspirin, I'm going to take Tylenol while I'm pregnant, like, oh, is this what, like, imagine the aliens watching us and going, they're not ready. They're not ready for sophisticated time-traveling technology. These fucking dopes, like, what are they doing? They're fighting over nonsense. You know, and it's like, it's all heavily accelerated by social media.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the algorithms just amplify that polarization.

• 23:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  They're just telling you what you want to hear and validating your worldview all the time.

• 23:48Joe Rogan?

  And also just outraging you, just outraging you all the time. I've been off it for a while now, and it's like, it frees your brain. It's like, all the weirdness of thinking about nonsense in the world just, you're aware of it peripherally, but it's not in your face all day, which I think most people are dealing with a lot more even than I was. And they're just bombarded by sensation, bombarded by anger and frustration and angst and...

• 24:18Speaker 01

  It kind of liberates the darkest impulses of the human spirit. I mean, I don't use it either, but I post stuff. But, you know, if I start reading my comments and take them seriously.

• 24:33Joe Rogan?

  No, it's terrible. I genuinely thought, when you joined forces with Trump, and then Tulsi did as well, I was like, okay, maybe this will unite us more and make more people realize that there's a lot of people that are being left out, that are in the center of all this. And we can all come together and work together. That's what I thought, naively. You know, obviously, once you guys got in there, it was, you guys were MAGA, and like, "Health is bad," and "Don't stop the dies." Like, no matter what it was, people were ideologically opposed to you being correct about anything, because now you're connected with Trump.

• 25:16Joe Rogan?

  So it's like, I was watching liberals, the people that are always worried about food ingredients, just dismissing all of this talk about preservatives, and glyphosate, and red dye, and all these different things, and it is just an ideological thing.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's dogma, and it's part of, it's tribalism. It's these connectors in our brain that evolved over millions of years, was living in these little tribal communities, and, you know, and now you've got machines that can activate those parts of the brain, and, you know, they're being manipulated all the time.

• 26:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And then there's a bunch of people that are commenting that aren't even real people. There's that, too. There's a lot of manipulation that's going on, on social media, where who knows who's doing it? There's a bunch of different groups doing it. But they're not real people that are outraged. They're not real human beings that are saying these things. And they can kind of shift a narrative into a certain direction sometimes. It's a fascinating time to be alive, you know? As far as what you thought this job was going to be before you got in, and what it became, what was your expectations when you got in? Like, did anything really surprise you?

• 26:45Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, I try to go into every part of my life without expectations. And just focus on, really narrowly, on what I'm doing, day by day. And that actually makes me a lot more resilient, because if you don't have expectations, you never get disappointments. And so you can never get crushed. But I would say that, you know, I have not spent a lot of my life hanging out with Republicans. And what I imagine that they were talking about is exactly the opposite of, you know,

• 27:26Speaker 01

  now I'm in an administration that is surrounded by immensely talented people. And they're immensely idealistic. And, you know, nobody, I always imagined that Republicans would get together and they'd be thinking about, how do we screw the poor? And how do we, you know, reduce effects on the rich? And all their, they're just narrowly focused on, how do we solve these big problems? And how do we make our country work? And the level of idealism that I see at every level in the White House and, you know, and in my agency is inspiring.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  And then the level of the capabilities, just the, you know, the competence of the people who I'm surrounded with. I think the thing that shocked me most was how bad the agency was, how, you know, just how inefficient, how nobody seemed to care that people were getting sicker and sicker. Nobody was taking accountability of the fact we're the health agency, and yet we have the worst health, and we're the richest health agency in the world. I think HHS is the sixth biggest country in the world, if you look at it, at its budget. It's got the biggest budget in the federal government, bigger than the defense budget.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  And yet, we are absolutely miserable at what we did. I mean, you know, we're literally presiding over this cliff where every American is getting, where people are just, seventy-seven percent of American kids can't qualify for military service. And nobody's asking, why is that happening? We've gone, when I was a kid, the typical pediatrician would see one case of juvenile diabetes over a forty or fifty-year career. Today, thirty-eight percent of teens are diabetic or prediabetic.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  So, one out of every three kids who walks into his office door, why isn't anybody noticing? Has the autism rates have gone from one in ten thousand in nineteen seventy? And people knew what autism was, they knew what it looked like in nineteen seventy. They did the biggest epidemiological study in history to answer the question, what is the percentage? And they came up with point eight per ten thousand, so less than one in ten thousand. And today, it's one in thirty-one. In California, it's one in nineteen, and one in twelve point five boys.

• 30:05Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  We are, you know...

• 30:07Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy. One in twelve point five boys is crazy.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  And when my uncle was president, you know, I was a ten-year-old boy, we spent zero on chronic disease, zero. And today, we spend four point three trillion dollars a year. And it's the fastest-growing item in the federal budget. And it's existential. We can't sustain it. And the Republicans and Democrats have been arguing for years about whether we do the single payer Obamacare, this and that. It's all about throwing money. Who gets to keep the money? And we're throwing it at a system that's completely broken. It's not a healthcare system.

• 30:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, people just keep getting sicker and sicker.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  It's like changing deck chairs on the Titanic. Why is nobody focusing on how do we get people healthy? Because that's how you solve the healthcare cost problem. Right now, forty cents out of every dollar that you spend in federal taxes is going to healthcare, and about ninety percent of that is chronic disease. So, you know, it's clear, and Americans don't want to be sick.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  They're being made sick. They're being, the obesity rates have gone from 5% in kids when I was a kid, now close to 20%. And in adults, 70% of adults who are obese are overweight. That was not true when we were kids. And it's not because Americans got indolent, or lazy, or hungry. It's because they were being mass poisoned. And, you know, the vested interests that are making money on keeping, everybody makes money on keeping us sick. The food companies make money on getting us sick. But pharma makes money on keeping us sick. The insurance, you would think insurance would want to keep you well, but it doesn't.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  It actually makes more money if more people are sick. The hospitals.

• 32:08Joe Rogan?

  Why, how does the insurance company make more money if people are sick?

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, think of it this way. If you're Lloyds of London, do you want one ship, and you're insuring all the ships in the ocean? Do you want one ship to sink a year, or do you want a thousand to sink? If a thousand sink, everybody's going to be paying you premiums to insure themselves against that eventuality. And you're making money on the friction. So you're making the money that comes into this, you're making your money on the money that comes into the system. And the more that you pump up that pharma money, the more you make.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  So, you know, nobody is interested, nobody is economically incentivized to make people well. And we are not going to get well until we align those economic incentives with the health outcomes that we want, which is nobody gets sick. We end the chronic disease epidemic. And that's what we're doing now. We're trying to realign all those perverse incentives. I worry, for example, the medical system pays out on fee-based service. That means, the more tests the doctor orders for you, the more drugs he prescribes you, the more contact he has with you, the richer he gets.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Oh, he is not incentivized, incentivized to get you out. We ought to be paying him a flat fee at the beginning of the year and saying, anything, any cost from this patient, the rest of the year, come out of your pocket. And then he's like, okay, how do I get this guy from getting sick? And he starts studying nutrition books and, you know.

• 33:54Joe Rogan?

  That's actually an interesting idea. It seems so captured at this point. It's going to be difficult to unravel all that.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  It, it's difficult, but it's not impossible. And we're doing it. You know, by three years from now, you're going to see a different healthcare model in our country.

• 34:10Joe Rogan?

  I think talking about it has a big impact because most people are just not aware of how the whole system works and what is actually wrong with it. You know, most people just hear about it. Healthcare, people are sick, they need healthcare. Why would they cut healthcare? Cutting healthcare is bad. That's what they would just immediately think. And I think most people, they, they think of the fraud stuff and they want to dismiss it. Like they, I've heard all these people dismiss this Nick Shirley kid and what he exposed in, in Minneapolis. But the, the reason why is because it's the wrong party. If this was a Democrat that was exposing Republican fraud, then they would be all into it. They would be, it would be on every newspaper. But instead, they're trying to dismiss it as not, you know, not relevant.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it, to me, it's weird because I know Democrats are human beings and they care about the same things that I do. I've known all of these guys, almost all of them, for many of them for 40 years. Bernie Sanders, I've known for 40 years. Their only solution is more money to the system, a system that is broken, that is making us sicker and sicker. And what President Trump wants to do is he wants to fix the system. Stop, most of that money is not going to the patients, it's going to the insurance companies and the BBMs and all of these middlemen that are, you know, are milking the system. And that's why President Trump says, you know, the answer is to not pay the insurance company.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  It's to pay the consumer directly and put him, make him the CEO of his own healthcare. That he can spend money. He's now incentivized to do prevention and to maybe do holistic medicine or take vitamins or, you know, take vitamin D, which, you know, is, as you know, is kind of miraculous. Or to, or to do alternatives, you know, to do preventative care. And he wants to say, he's gonna want to save money. Right now, you, nobody, nobody is in that position of accountability.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  We need to make them the CEO of their own health so that they have responsibility and they're gonna pay the cost if they get sick. Government pays, but they then decide to allocate, how to allocate that money. And then, we need to make the system transparent, and that's, you know, one of the things that we're doing. We're, during his first term, Trump passed a transparency bill, but because Trump had passed, everybody wanted transparency. If you, if you're a woman, you're pregnant, you wanna know how much it's gonna cost, you know, to have that baby. There's no way you can find that out for most of them. You can go nine months on a phone every day, how much it's gonna cost, and you'll never

• 37:02Speaker 01

  get a straight answer. And, so, you know, in New York, for example, what we're doing now is we're gonna make all of the hospitals and all the providers post a menu of their prices so that are available to everybody and that are available on a website that we're creating. So if you want an MRI... And there's 40 places around your home that offer MRIs. You can't right now figure out what they cost. Now you're going to be able to go and look out of the mall on a single page and figure out what the cheapest one is. If you go to a restaurant, the prices are on the menu. If you go to buy a car and the guy said to you, you can buy the car, but I'm not going

• 37:45Speaker 01

  to tell you how much it costs till after you bought by it. Nobody would operate that way, but that's how our medical system operates. Oh, I looked at, we have a mock-up of this website. We're right now, during the Biden administration, because Trump had passed that law, the Biden administration just refused to enforce it. So we're in the same position now where there's no transparency. We're changing that now. We sent out, we've sent out over a thousand letters to hospitals, you know, warning letters. These that says you gotta post them right now and we're gonna, and we just finalized new regulations where if they don't do that, they're gonna pay a huge fine.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  So I saw the mock-up of the, of the website and I said, I asked the question, how much does it cost in the hospitals within a mile of Manhattan of a baby? One of them was, there were about 30 hospitals that you could, I could visualize on one page. One of them was $1,300. That was the lowest. Highest was $22,000. In Detroit, it is, the cheapest place to have a baby is about $5,000. And the most expensive is $60,000. And it's the same service, the same quality care.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Nothing changes except that price. Why do we have that information chaos? We have it because the industry wants to hide what it's doing. And so there's no market. There's no ability for people to make good choices. And when, you know, the...

• 39:30Speaker 01

  I was staying with Dr. Oz during the transition at his house in Florida. And one day, Prime Minister Rudd, who was the former Prime Minister of Australia, came by. And after he was Prime Minister, he had been appointed to run a commission to reduce healthcare costs and improve quality. And they were very successful, but he said the number one thing that they did that changed everything was price transparency, was showing people the price of what they're going to pay. So we're now going to do that, and people will be able to shop.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  And now we also have to shift all of that money away from the insurance companies and put it in the hands of the public so that they are incentivized, maximum incentivized, to make good choices.

• 40:24Joe Rogan?

  It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, buy a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long because it's not football without food. Popeyes offer, valid through November 1st, add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details.

• 41:09Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, joe rogan dot com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace dot com slash rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So as far as making good choices with like food, I like what you guys did. I love what

• 41:52Joe Rogan?

  you guys did with the food pyramid. Essentially flipped it on its head, which is kind of crazy. That for the longest time, we are being told that the most important things, the primary diet should be grains and rice and wheat. And now it's things that we've known for a long time. It's whole food, actual, real food. That's what you're supposed to be eating. The problem is getting people to change their habits and change their ways. And if people don't start eating good food, and if people don't start taking care of their body, how, what other things can you even imagine would shift this trend?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Well, here's what's gonna happen. First of all, the food pyramid, I inherited a food pyramid. From the first week, I was, I came into office one year and two weeks ago. A week after I got in, I was handed the food pyramid that the Biden administration had. It wasn't even the food pyramid. They got rid of that. They just were doing the dietary guidelines. So it was the recommendations that would go be reflected in the food pyramid. It was hundreds of pages long, and it was incomprehensible. And it was driven by all the mercantile impulses that had corrupted the food pyramid for 50 years. And it was,

• 43:10Speaker 01

  it was written by lobbyists. It was written by the food industry lobbyists and the same impulse that put Fruit Loops at the top of the food pyramid, which isn't even a food.

• 43:20Joe Rogan?

  Fruit Loops were at the top of the food?

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Fruit Loops were at the top recommendation of the food pyramid. You can ask them to look up the old food pyramid.

• 43:27Joe Rogan?

  I need to see where Fruit Loops stand. Don't they throw some vitamins on Fruit Loops? Isn't like vitamin rich?

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. As if that's good for you.

• 43:36Joe Rogan?

  It's good for you. They add vitamins. Do they even add vitamins?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  They add vitamins to cyanide, and you know, it's not gonna make it any better for you.

• 43:43Joe Rogan?

  No. No, I'm joking, obviously. But, um, it was a ridiculous, so the law, so how did?

• 43:50Speaker 01

  So then, what we did is we got the best nutritionists in the country. You know, we got Mark Hyman, and we got... The nutritionists from the best universities in the country and we put them all in a room. And I thought it was gonna take a month. It took 11 months because they fought over every recommendation and everything is cited in source so that we know we have good science. But you know, some of this stuff, because of regulatory malpractice all these years, some of the studies simply haven't been done. So there are knowledge gaps which we should not have. So now we have a food pyramid and because of the old food pyramid, people didn't like the food on it and they were going to ultra-processed food, which was

• 44:35Speaker 01

  okay on the food pyramid. So now 70% of the food that our kids eat is ultra-processed food, 70% of the calories they get, and it's just poisoning them. And they took off the good stuff like a whole milk, which is nutrient-dense, which is feeding their brain. We have two generations of kids that grew up without milk, without the proper nutrients for their brain. We have the first country in the face of the earth that has chronic obesity and in the same people, malnutrition. So you have immensely obese people and they're malnourished. They're medically malnourished. It's because the food pyramid was so messed up. So what's

• 45:16Speaker 01

  gonna happen now, Joe, is that we are gonna be able to drive that. We're gonna be able to change dietary culture. Just the food pyramid is gonna change dietary culture. And here's how. Brooke Rollins, who's an incredible USDA secretary, she administers $405 million a day that she gives out to food subsidies for school lunches, the WICS program, the SNAP program, Indian Health Services, and all of these other programs. And so those programs now are gonna get good food because the dietary guidelines dictate what they can and cannot feed kids.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Military and the VA also are changing. Now, I, you know, this week I met with a guy, Chef Robert Irvine, who is a television chef. He's been hired by Peter Hegseth to come in and change all the military meals. Military, and he's on, already on five bases. By the end of this month, he'll be on 20. What he's done is the food that we give our military is so bad, they won't eat it. So they're going out and they're spending their money on, uh, fast food. And fast food is not cheap. A Big Mac meal costs 12 to 14 dollars. It's not a cheap meal. You can get a really good food for that price.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  You could feed yourself the whole day for that price with good food. Mark Hyman's new book has a diet, $10 a day diet, three meals, great food. Anyway, Robert Irvine has gone into these places and he gives them all fresh food, almost all of it locally sourced. As it turns out, it's cheaper. The military is spending $18 a day for three meals for each soldier. He's spending $10 a day and giving them real food, good food. And the lines now are loud around the block and nobody's going to fast food. Everybody's fighting to get in. And what he says is, "It doesn't cost more. We don't need any more money.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  We just need to buy smarter and to be smarter about how we do it." And, you know, um, we're gonna be able to do that. One of the things that we're doing with the dietary guidelines is the SNAP program. SNAP, we have 20 states now that have applied for SNAP waivers and have been granted so that you can no longer get candy on SNAP. You can no longer get, um, soda. That was 18% of SNAP purchases. So we are taking the 63 million poorest kids in our country, giving them taxpayer-funded diabetes. And then 78% of them end up on Medicaid. Many of them have been treated for diabetes. So we're paying to give them the disease and then we're paying to treat them for the

• 48:11Speaker 01

  rest of their lives. And we're changing that. And one of the things that Brooke is doing is she's gonna require that any retailer that accepts food stamps has to double the amount of real food in their establishment. We're working with farmers, we're working with entrepreneurs to make sure every American can get high-quality food that is affordable.

• 48:32Joe Rogan?

  I don't know how anybody would be opposed to that. That all sounds fantastic.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  It's weird that they are.

• 48:38Joe Rogan?

  How could you, the way you just laid it out? How could anybody be opposed to that? That all sounds great.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, what the Democrats...

• 48:43Joe Rogan?

  Especially for the soldiers. The fact that they were getting terrible food that they didn't want to eat is just... That's... That's really offensive. You know? You think about what you're asking of them, and then you're giving them garbage that they don't even want to eat? Like, what do they... How do they feel that you care about them?

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Well, and you know, one of the things that... Robert Irvin, the chef, told me, he said, you know, "It costs $9 to get a frozen salmon. It costs $6 to get a fresh salmon." So, you know, food... Food, good food, is actually... If you cook yourself at home, the good food is much, much less expensive. The problem is, Americans have forgotten how to cook. And so... And cooking is really important because it's not a... It's important for family cohesion, for a sense of community. It's a daily, it's almost sacred ritual.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  And, you know, taking that away from our lives has amplified the spiritual malaise that we're in. And one of the things we're gonna do is to start sending federal workers out to teach people how to cook. They don't have the implements, they don't have the cutting boards, they don't have...

• 49:55Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  You know, they don't know how to buy groceries.

• 49:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  And, you know, you can go into any, any big grocery store in this country. If you go and buy a steak, it's still pretty expensive. But if you buy the cheaper cuts, it's great meat, and it is very, very affordable. Or liver, or, you know, all these alternatives.

• 50:16Joe Rogan?

  Chuck roast.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Now, you said... You know, how can you be against that? I told you, 20 states have applied for this SNAP program, and we've granted them SNAP waivers. Why would you want taxpayer... If you want to drink a Coke, you ought to be able to. We live in the United States. We're not gonna take anything away from anybody. The taxpayer shouldn't be paying for it, particularly when we're paying for it on the other end in diabetes. So this just makes sense to anybody. Twenty states have applied, only two of them are blue states. Why, Bernie Sanders has been fighting for this for years, but Vermont won't apply for one.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  And it's all partisanship and they're putting their hatred of Donald Trump ahead of their love for their own children. And until we learn to stop doing that, this, you know, the healthcare in this country is not going to improve, at least in those states.

• 51:14Joe Rogan?

  So what strategies, if any, could you ever imagine that could be implemented that would kind of unite people on these things and get them to stop being so partisan about? One of the most important aspects of being a human being is staying healthy. It's, you know, it's like love and health. They're all, those are the top ones that we all want. It just seems insane that we would choose this as a battleground. And it seems insane that it's connected to one party or another. It shouldn't be. It should just, we should all be united on at least this. And I think if people were a little healthier and they were a little more fit, they'd probably

• 51:55Joe Rogan?

  have a lot less anxiety, probably a lot less conflict when it comes to political disagreements. Things could probably be worked out more amicably, especially among friends. It's like having good health improves virtually every aspect of your life.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I would say.

• 52:13Joe Rogan?

  For everybody.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  I'd say two things. The food ties directly into your mental health.

• 52:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  And we now know, it's so well documented that there's a gut-brain connection and that, you know, depression, ADHD. Chris Palmer up at Harvard. Is dramatically reducing the symptoms of schizophrenia simply by changing people's diets, using a keto diet. There are-

• 52:40Joe Rogan?

  Dramatically, like what, what kind of percentage?

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Losing thirty percent of their symptoms.

• 52:44Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:46Joe Rogan?

  Just from ketones?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  From keto.

• 52:48Joe Rogan?

  What about, have they done anything with like-

• 52:49Speaker 01

  The same thing is true, I mean, you know, there are now, there's a big paper about to come out on losing a bipolar diagnosis, kids who lose bipolar diagnosis simply by changing their diet. We know that ADHD is driven by all these food diets and stuff, and that's very well documented. But there's all of these, you go on the internet and you look for studies that show what happens when you change the food in prisons and juvenile detention facilities. And they, you know, they, they'll put it in one wing of the prison, they'll put good food, and then they'll put the standard food in the, in the other.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  And the level of violence goes down by forty, forty-five, fifty percent. The use of restraints in juvenile detention facilities goes down seventy-five percent. The, the number of incidents dramatically drops. And so it's a public safety issue in the prisons, and you know, I've been meeting now with all the prisons, they, prisons have a real problem because they're allocated, the state prisons are allocated sixty cents a day to feed the prisoners. And it's, and they're, it's all-

• 54:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  For them, it's all about shelf life. So they're just feeding them the worst kind of poison that you could possibly, it's all just chemicals.

• 54:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  But, you know, um-

• 54:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, we've kind of given up on the idea of rehabilitation. It's just all about punishment and then-

• 54:21Speaker 01

  But this is also public safety, it's guard safety, everything else.

• 54:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, of course, yeah.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  And the other thing, in the answer to your first question- About how do you sort of, you know, mitigate the polarization? I would say the only way that you do that is by getting people to start talking to each other.

• 54:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Because that, you gotta be able to find common ground with other people. And if you don't talk to them, you don't see their humanity.

• 54:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  And, you know, that's one of the things that you do that is so great, which is you bring a lot of people on here who you disagree with, and you have a civil conversation about them, and you you show your curiosity about them, and you, you know, you you get to hear their rationale, and a lot of times, I'll listen to somebody on this show, I'll say, "I don't like this guy," and then I'll listen to his rationale, and I'll think, "Oh, actually, he's making a lot of the sense." And we have to stop hating people because of the label on them.

• 55:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  And start, you know, listening, and it's really important we do that now because these algorithms are designed to drive us all apart.

• 55:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  And, you know, we've always had political polarization in this country. I mean, I grew up during the 60s, and, you know, there were bombs going off and people being shot, and, you know, all it was very, very violent and vitriolic when my dad was running. And the polarization probably was the worst since the American Civil War. Um, but, um, but today, when it is amplified by the algorithms, it's hard to see where it's gonna end up in a good place unless we start learning to talk to each other.

• 56:05Joe Rogan?

  It's not just the algorithm, it's just the, it's also the method of communication. When you're, you're only talking to people through like angry tweets back and forth with each other. You were saying like, "Sit down and talk to people." That's, no one's doing that anymore. There's a few FaceTime conversations going on, you see your friends if you go out with them. People are not talking that much anymore, and they're not sitting down and talking. And when you do, everyone's distracted, everyone has their phones out, everyone's checking text messages.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, one of the most important things that we're doing right now is part of the Maha. Legislation from my agency, we're going state by state and we're asking them to do bell to bell legislation so that, and 26 states have now already done it, so more than half the states, so that kids can't use cell phones in schools. I went to a school in Loudoun County the other day and the states love them. I went to Loudoun County and, you know, they had, the students had fought and fought against this, this, against getting their cell phones. So they, the way they do it, all of the schools, school districts and states do it differently,

• 57:14Speaker 01

  but in that state, they can bring their cell phone to school, but they have to leave it in their backpack. And, and if the parent calls and needs to talk to them, they can do it. But I walked into cafeteria, 600 kids in that cafeteria and they're all talking to each other. They're sitting across the table, nobody's looking at their labs. The parents, the parents came, you know, that day. I polled the students and I said, "How many of you think this is a good idea?" And they all put their hands up and they said, "We all hated it for the first two weeks and now we love it." The, um, the parents said, "It's the best thing that ever happened. My kid is not driving with their cellphone in the car anymore because they know they can live without it.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  We're eating dinner with the family and we're actually having conversations." And then the, the teachers and the schools love it because the disciplinary problems go down and the, the test scores go through the roof, you know, because they're focusing

• 58:10Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  On work, so it's just like a no brainer. But again, it's the, the blue states, it's, you know, the hardest to convince to do it because they see it as, as, uh, you know, as a, a Trump, a part of the, you know, the demonization of, you know, Trump being the tyrant or whatever.

• 58:30Joe Rogan?

  It's just so stupid to, to not recognize the kids are distracted, like, but, why, it, it's just one of those things, I've, why does that have to be a right or a left issue? It's stupid. This is a, a United States issue. The best way to have a, a group of people that succeed in this world is, make it as clear a path for them as possible. And as soon as you allow them to use their phone all day, it's too addictive. No one can put them down. You're gonna lose 30% of your concentration or more, easily, I would imagine. The fact that that would be a partisan thing is just nuts. It just shows how goofy we are. I don't, I don't know how you get people to talk, though. I mean, other than,

• 59:15Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I do it on a podcast, but that's my job. I don't know how many conversations I'd be having with people who I was politically opposed to or ideologically opposed to, or just didn't see eye to eye with them and wanted to know how they think. I, I don't know how many opportunities I would ever even get to do that.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  What you're doing is so important. And now, you know, there's a thousand people imitating you. Many really good podcasts. But, um, it's teaching people to have conversations. I mean, you are the best teacher mentor on that and people admire you. So they, you know, and my, I have seven kids and they grew up with, with devices and stuff. And I would look, you know, I'd slap them out of their hand and I, and also they couldn't concentrate on long, you know, long points, long conversations. They're like, get to the point, you know, like I only got five seconds. You gotta make your point.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  And then I see them sitting for three and a half hours and listening to a Rogan podcast. That was a cultural phenomenon. That was a cultural change. This generation of kids, I have so much hope for because they grew up with that. And, you know, they want it. So I do have a lot of a hope that we're going to be able to do this. And then, you know, I think Charlie Kirk did that too, was an example to a lot of those kids. Because whether you agree with him or not, and he had very strong opinions that people, you know, considered terrible. But the one thing that he really did is he talked to people he didn't agree with. And he always gave them the microphone and allowed them to amplify their voice. And then he had a civility.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  And he talked to them and he used logic a lot of times destructively. But not in an angry way. And so I think, you know, he was teaching people how to, how to have conversations again. You're teaching people how to have conversations again. And it's, you know, I think that's. You know, one of the big hopes that I have for the future, that people learn to talk to each other with whom they did, with, with people with whom they disagree.

• 1:01:26Joe Rogan?

  It would be nice, but there's also a, a real genuine problem today in the marketplace of outrage and that a, a lot of people, um, a lot of their podcasts are just focused almost entirely on, on outrage and of like having arguments and screaming matches with people and, you know, putting people down and not having civil discourse, but trying to win, trying to dominate someone in an argument, you know, trying to squash people. And I guess in a sense, some of that is really good because it exposes bad ideas, but it just encourages that kind of discourse where if someone's ideologically opposed to you, they are the enemy and you want to destroy them. And I'm, I'm like, okay, they're just

• 1:02:11Joe Rogan?

  a human being. Like find out why they got to where they are. That is a different perspective than you have and why you got to where you are and try to figure out if there's a middle ground in there. Like what, what do you believe, like a, why do you believe that? And find out why and, and ask them and don't, don't cut them off. Let them talk. Let them express themselves. Help them if you can. Try to figure out what makes someone actually think instead of just thinking that your ideas are a part of you. They're just ideas. Like they're not you. Like you, you, some ideas you can hold in your mind and they're bad for you. They're bad. You haven't examined them. You're acting on them like they're doctrine and then you're stuck with that idea because you've already espoused it so many times.

• 1:02:55Joe Rogan?

  You don't want to be a flip-flopper and so people get mad and you, you get this weird cycle of shitty communication and nobody ever breaks out of it and nothing ever gets done. And there's no common ground is ever achieved. And the only way you're going to ever break that is to stop talking to people like that. You gotta just talk to them. Just to, instead of talk to them like they're the enemy, just talk to them like they're a fellow human being about some ideas and just treat them with respect. Talk to them like a person that, you know, in any other circumstance, maybe even could be your friend. Just talk to them. People can do that. It's possible. It just takes discipline. You have to learn how to do it. Took me a while. Took me a long time to learn how to talk to people better. But it can be done.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's technique. But as prevalent as, you know, that kind of ritual is on, in the podcast world.

• 1:03:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  It's, it is incomparable to what's happening on television. Because there are no conversations on television.

• 1:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's more of what I was getting at, honestly, is there's some shows that do that. But like some of these CNN shows, it's just these crazy ideological battles. And yet also, guys, pro tip, you can't have fucking six people at a table all yelling out for seven minutes. You don't have enough time to get a real point across. And it becomes a battle of like, who's got the best prepared soundbites? Or who's got the best, uh, snarky quip? It's stupid. It's a stupid way to talk about things.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean Cheryl went on, uh.

• 1:04:26Joe Rogan?

  The View?

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, The View. And it was, and it was that. It wasn't like, uh, um, like you say, you know, like, let's have a congenial conversation with people and, you know, allow them to, to express themselves and to be fun and funny and.

• 1:04:45Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, well, just have a conversation with someone. If you disagree with them about certain things, like they disagree with her. It would have been far more productive to have a one-on-one conversation. Instead of this gaggle of hands squawking all at her. It's just like, you, you see it over and over again when they oppose somebody. It's like, they're all chiming in and it's just not the way you could ever like thoroughly cover a subject. And they're limited by their format. That format is very limiting. It's a shitty format where you, you know, you go to a commercial at predetermined times, period, no matter what. Like, maybe you got a little leeway here or there, but you've got to get that commercial in. And that's crazy because if you're in the middle of talking, a lot of points take a long time to flesh out.

• 1:05:28Joe Rogan?

  Like, just think about all the stuff you just explained about Medicaid. Imagine if you tried to do that and.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  You can't.

• 1:05:34Joe Rogan?

  You can't. You can't do it. And it would, they would try to stop you. You're too in the weeds. No one's gonna pay attention to this. It's like. I don't think that's true, and I think we've learned that because of podcasts, because there was no production, there was no executives, there was no one there. People were just putting on a webcam and talking. And so we realized, like, well, people actually do like conversations still. They just don't get a lot of them, not real ones. You know, you get interviews where someone has like a sheet of questions, you know, you get where someone is, you know, playing a role. You're playing a role of a person who interviews people. You don't really give a shit about what this person has to say. But people do want connection, they still do. And the fact that we don't get it from social media, but most of our time

• 1:06:19Joe Rogan?

  is in social media, is just accelerating this detachment we have from each other. And that's what people have to get past. I don't know how to do it, to tell everybody to start their own podcast.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  You know, you and I were talking before we came in here about Larry King.

• 1:06:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  He did that. There were a lot of people in the seventies and eighties, David Suchkind and, you know, all of these other people who were, who were actually having conversations.

• 1:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Larry King was great.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Dick Cavett.

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  I love when he asked D.J. Khalid, "How'd you gain all the weight?"

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  What did he say?

• 1:06:55Joe Rogan?

  He said, "I ate too much." What do you want me to say? Such a crazy question. How did you gain all the weight? Like, what, Larry? What are you talking about? That's crazy. That's a wild question to ask someone. But, you know, he would just have a conversation with you, you know, and I think people have a hunger for that. And a lot of this infighting comes from no face-to-face communication. I think when people get a chance, especially if it's not performative, that's part of the problem, like the Charlie Kirk stuff or some of the other things that people do in front of a crowd, things become very performative, where there's a bunch of people watching and cheering and then you know how the audience feels and you play to them a little bit, like, eh. That's probably not the best way to talk about stuff.

• 1:07:36Joe Rogan?

  And I think human beings naturally understand one-on-one conversations. We've had them for all of human history. So when you get a chance to hear people talk one-on-one for hours at a time, it expands your understanding of the world. Like, now I know how you feel about things. I know, at least for this brief three-hour conversation, I get more of a sense of how you approach things. And then people put that into their own mind and go, "Maybe I should approach things a little bit differently. Maybe I should think about things a little bit differently." And we miss that, you know, we're missing that. And social media robs you of that. It gives you the exact opposite of that.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, what Charlie Kirk was doing, you're right. You know, it was, it was less of a conversation and more of a...

• 1:08:27Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes it was a conversation.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  It was like in the ring, you know, it was like being in a, you know, the ring. But it's a lot better than what's happening elsewhere, which is just blanket censorship of people and not any willingness...

• 1:08:40Joe Rogan?

  100%.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  To just shutting people down and cancelling them.

• 1:08:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  And that's another weird thing, that that's a Democratic Party impulse, because it was the opposite of the Democratic Party I grew up with, you know, which was unafraid of any debate. My uncle, my father said, "We should be able to debate. We should be able to win these debates in the marketplace of ideas. If we can't, then we need to examine ourselves."

• 1:09:05Joe Rogan?

  It was a core tenet of the Democratic Party.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:08Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, the unfortunate shift in that, it's just like, you know, I remember during the Bush administration, when the FCC was going after Howard Stern. It was, it was this huge thing. They were trying to close down Howard Stern, because Howard Stern was very critical of Bush. And it was like, he was the guy out there fighting for free speech. And they were getting fined, like enormous fines, enormous fines for things that he had said, you know, they deemed to be obscene, you know? And that was a right-wing thing. And we always thought of it as a right-wing thing. And when you see what's happening today, just like any, the wanting silence of your political

• 1:09:49Joe Rogan?

  opponents is the dumbest way to cut off your own hand. It's so dumb. Because if you can't see that this could be used against you if someone else gets into a position of power, if all of a sudden some enormous right-wing corporation buys these social media platforms and only pushes right-wing agendas and silences all left-wing agendas, like, do you know how fucking crazy that is? To just give that kind of power willingly to an anonymous group of people that you supposedly align to because you're in the same tribe, it's the dumbest thing ever. And the fact that people on the left weren't outraged when they read the Twitter files and found out how much involvement there was in silencing real information and removing people who were from Stanford and MIT.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  The White House ordered me to be removed from Instagram. I lost a million followers.

• 1:10:38Joe Rogan?

  Insane.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Thirty-seven hours after he got, after he took the oath of office, swearing to uphold the Constitution, they were ordering Mark Zuckerberg to take me down. And then you look at what's happening in England now, you know, with people going to jail for Twitter posts.

• 1:10:56Joe Rogan?

  Twelve thousand people this year. Twelve thousand in the last year.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  And this was when the Magna Carta was, you know, written, and now there's, now it's just a, it's just a dictatorship.

• 1:11:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, they got rid of trial by jury, except for murder and rape and a couple other things. Now it's just a judge. So, you know, whatever it is, if it's a social media infraction, if it's, there's no reasonable, you know, judge by a jury of your peers. No, you're, you're, you're getting judged by a judge. And that's nuts.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  It's the Soviet system. It's like Kafka.

• 1:11:29Joe Rogan?

  I just can't believe how quick it happened. When, you know, when you look at the social media arrests, they were, they were always disturbing. Like, if you go back even four or five years, they had quite a few of them a year. But it really ramped up, really ramped up over the last year or so. And it's just insane to watch. And a lot of it is criticism of immigration. Like legitimate criticism of immigration and legitimate criticism of crimes that have been committed. And people outraged, which is completely normal. But instead of like, doing anything about that, they want to arrest people from complaining. And it's just really weird to watch.

• 1:12:11Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna get worse with the AI.

• 1:12:20Joe Rogan?

  It's scary. Well, it's just strange that they couldn't do anything to stop that from happening and that anybody with anybody that's reasonable would be willing to let that happen because their side is imposing it. That seems like an existential threat to all critical thinking, all communication and debate. As soon as you start arresting people for opinions, that's crazy. You're getting nuts. Like, anything that you deem might incite violence or outrage, people are outraged. They have a right to be outraged. If you can put them in a cage because they're outraged, that's nuts. That's really not. Now, they have a pub law. Do you know this one? No. Oh, find that, Jamie.

• 1:13:06Joe Rogan?

  They're trying to pass this thing, I don't know if they passed it, where someone's, I don't want to speak out of turn, I don't want to fuck this up, because it was disturbing enough without me misinterpreting it. But the idea was to stop people from saying things on social media that you'd get arrested for, stop them from saying those kind of things in pubs.

• 1:13:30Joe Rogan?

  Where is this in England? Yes. See if you can find it. I know I saved it, but it'll take me too long to pull it up. You find anything like that?

• 1:13:41Joe Rogan?

  Legit?

• 1:13:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I wouldn't imagine it's not, I mean, it's not outside the realm of what they're possibly, they're capable of doing if they're arresting 12,000 people a year for social media posts.

• 1:13:56Joe Rogan?

  If that was happening in America and they were only arresting Republicans, I don't think you'd hear a peep out of the Democrats. I think they think it's important. We have to stop misinformation. Yeah. It passed?

• 1:14:07Speaker 03

  No, I don't think it passed.

• 1:14:08Joe Rogan?

  You don't think it passed?

• 1:14:09Speaker 03

  I'm gonna find out if it passed or not.

• 1:14:12Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so what is the, what were they?

• 1:14:13Speaker 03

  It's legislation aimed, blah, blah, blah, but it says you're still free to converse, know the law, not place of suspicion, I don't know.

• 1:14:22Joe Rogan?

  What was the, what were they trying to, okay, point, free speech in UK pubs, employer responsibilities. It requires employers to take reasonable steps to prevent staff from experiencing harassment by third parties such as customers. That's normal, right? You don't want to be harassed by a customer. Concerns have been raised that debates on, for instance, gender identity or political matters could lead to staff complaints resulting in patrons being asked to leave if the behavior is deemed aggressive or harassing. It should not be misinterpreted as a ban on lawful, polite, or controversial speech. Who's to decide what's controversial, though? Third-party harassment.

• 1:15:03Joe Rogan?

  Legislation focuses on addressing harassment rather than banning specific topics of conversation entirely. Just any regulation of conversation is nuts. If, it's one thing you're harassing the staff or-

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  I mean, the pub owner, I've never known a pub owner who would allow people to come in and harass his staff. He already has an economic and management incentive to not allow that. You know, it's not the kind of thing you need to legislate.

• 1:15:30Joe Rogan?

  But to say that someone doesn't feel safe if people are having a civil conversation about gender identity, you don't feel safe if you work there and that you're getting harassed by people's opinions that you don't agree with, well, that's where things get weird. Because then, you, as we've seen, there's a lot of people that get, they get really triggered about a lot of things that are pretty normal for most folks. You know, microaggressions, dumb shit. There's a lot of people that just want to be offended, and if this is a law, that could lead to a lot more problems. It's just a slippery slope, and they're not going in the right direction, and I don't know how they course correct if they've fallen this far that quickly. 12,000 arrests is crazy. That's a crazy amount of people go to jail for social media posts.

• 1:16:16Joe Rogan?

  And it encourages self censorship, so you don't get a real sense of what people want or don't want. Because people don't want to be involved, they don't want to go to jail, they don't want to get, take a chance. This episode is brought to you by the Apple Sports app. Guys, this is the ultimate best time of the year to be a sports fan. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer. The calendar is stacked, but it can also be hard to keep track of it all. And that is where the Apple Sports app comes into play. It is the fastest and easiest way to stay on top of all the action. With scores and play-by-play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you follow are playing, that means you don't have to figure out when the games are on

• 1:17:00Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:44Joe Rogan?

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• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  The framers of the Constitution, free speech was everything for them, and they put it in the First Amendment because they knew all the other... Rights and guarantees were dependent on it. If you have a, if you have a government that can silence its opponents, it has a license for any, any kind of atrocity.

• 1:18:43Joe Rogan?

  It's just shocking that all other Western nations haven't adopted that.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Well, most of them don't have constitutions.

• 1:18:52Joe Rogan?

  So crazy. It's just so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous that free speech, which is like, we all agree, especially in America, it's one of the most important things, the only way to find out what's real and what's not. You gotta let people talk it out, you know? I mean, when you're living in a world where the government has the power to dictate what's real and what's not real, and they don't have an obligation to be correct, you got a real problem. And if there's no consequences for them being incorrect, and they've silenced correct speech, they've gotten away with something that's real slippery and real dangerous. And when there's a lot of money involved and a lot of businesses involved.

• 1:19:33Speaker 03

  I typed it into perplexity and it, this gives a little context on it, because the pubs were being...

• 1:19:39Joe Rogan?

  The same, the pub thing? Reverse is a 2013 removal of third-party harassment liability, making pubs liable if staffs overhear comments deemed harassing based on protected characteristics like sex or race. Critics call it a banter ban, fearing landlords will police conversations to avoid lawsuits, chilling speech in social venues.

• 1:20:01Speaker 03

  That makes it sound like if someone was doing that, the business was getting in trouble versus the person who was saying it.

• 1:20:08Joe Rogan?

  Right. So, they removed a third-party harassment liability. So they removed the pub owner being in trouble.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  So they did, yeah.

• 1:20:18Joe Rogan?

  They removed that.

• 1:20:19Speaker 03

  Because it says it passed, when I was looking it up, it said it passed a couple months ago.

• 1:20:25Joe Rogan?

  So that makes pub owners liable again. So it removed, 2013 removal of third-party harassment liability.

• 1:20:33Speaker 03

  I made them liable. I don't think, I think it's back to, reverses that, reverses making them liable.

• 1:20:38Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no. No, it reverses the removal of the third-party harassment liability. So they removed the liability, now making pubs liable. So it now makes them liable if they overhear comments. So what this does is encourages the pub itself to censor people, which makes sense. I mean, if you all of a sudden can now sue a pub that you went into and you didn't like this conversation about gender identity that was taking place next to you, you have the basis of a lawsuit now.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  Yes, and now the incentive is the pub owner to go out and police all the conversations so that if anybody, if anybody crosses the guardrail, you know, the pub owner now has to go in and interrupt them, which is not a good thing.

• 1:21:22Joe Rogan?

  And if you weren't a charitable person, you could imagine that there are certain groups that would have people go to places, have conversations, and set up a lawsuit.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Joe Rogan?

  You could just, you could commit fraud. If the pub is liable, you pay some kook to go in there and start yelling about transsexuals, and then next thing you know, you collect the lawsuit. That's not outside of what I think a shady person would do. If you think about what you've just talking about with all the Medicare fraud and all the other fraud that we know has happened in the world, like, this is a, this is a giant loophole. This is a giant loophole for people to come in and sue people and silence everybody's speech. And the fact that this is not being recognized is, it's very disturbing that people don't understand human behavior. It's very weird that they're willing to accept this kind of stuff.

• 1:22:16Joe Rogan?

  When you look at the challenges of getting things done, what has been the most frustrating in terms of what you wanted to get done and what you were actually able to get done or in the process of getting done?

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  I mean, I've been surprised by how much President Trump has supported me on this stuff, because I, you know, I'm going after the biggest, you know, the big pharma.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Big insurance, the Big food. Big food. And, and these have all been, you know, those were all taboos for every administration, Democratic, Republican. There was little incremental things that you could do under Democratic administrations, but nothing like this has ever happened. You know, I mean, the, the agreement we made with the pharmaceutical industry could not have happened any, under any other president, the MFN agreement, the most favored nation. And the way that that worked is, you know, we've been paying for the last 40 years, the highest price in the world for medicine.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  And so, we have 4.2% of the world's population here, and over 70% of pharmaceutical profits and revenues come from the United States. Why is that? We do buy more drugs than anybody, but it's because we pay a higher price. We pay two to three, to five times what they're paying in Europe. For example, and President Trump likes to talk about this, Ozempic, the list price was $1,350 in America. You could buy the same drug in any pharmacy in London for $88, and it's made in the same factory in New Jersey.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  And the reason that was allowed to happen is the Europeans just said, we're not going to allow, we're not going to pay any more for it. They would set the price, and that was the maximum. There's a lot of drugs they don't have. There's a lot of cancer drugs they don't have in Europe because they just wouldn't pay the price. And, and so, President Trump, you know, every president has vowed to stop this. Clinton tried to stop it. Obama, Bush, all of them tried, and Biden all said, we're going to get rid of the MFN price, and none of them did anything on it. And President Trump literally called me, sometimes once a day, called late at night,

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  11:30 at night, and, you know, say, where are you on MFN? And we ended up getting the, it seemed, to me even, it seemed insurmountable. But he said, I'm gonna use tariffs. I'm gonna force the Europeans to raise their drug prices. And because he didn't want to, he didn't, we had enough leverage on the pharmaceutical companies because of our Medicaid Medicare programs. We could pretty much force them to lower their prices. And he, but it would put them out of business. So, and he didn't want, he wants us to continue to be the center for innovation in this country. And he also wanted the companies to reshore all their production so that we're making

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  all the drugs here and they're not making it elsewhere in the world. And so we sat down with them for months and we came to agreements with 16 of the 17 pharmaceutical companies. Now Americans are getting the lowest prices in the world. If somebody lowers a price in Europe, we get that price or lower. And people can get that today on Trump RX. They can go for, you know, the most popular medications and get the cheapest price in the world. And not only that, but the pharmaceutical industry, because we gave them certainty and because President Trump forced the European countries to raise the price that their citizens pay for drugs. We, the companies actually did well.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  They increased stock values by 1.3 trillion among them. And they've all agreed to ensure their production. So Lilly is building six plants here, new plants, including one of the biggest API facilities in the world. That's the API are the pharmaceutical ingredients that, you know, we ran out of during COVID. We need to be making them here because otherwise other countries can blackmail us. Pfizer, Merck, they're all building big facilities here and drug production is now going to come to the United States. We are going to be the center of the world in terms of drug production.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  And those negotiations were very, very tough and they were extraordinarily complex. We were, you know, we have a really good suite of talented individuals, high caliber individuals who've left billion dollar businesses. One of them is a guy called Chris Klump, who's immensely talented. He walked away from a company that does data management for 85% of the hospitals in this country and he's, you know, he walked away from a billion dollar company, divested, lost a lot of money to come just because he wants to improve things. He ran the negotiations and the pharmaceutical companies fell in love with him because they realized they could trust him.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  And we worked out this extraordinary agreement where now Americans have gone from paying the most in the world for drugs to the least in the developed world for drugs. And that's going to change everybody's experience.

• 1:27:52Joe Rogan?

  Can I ask you how that applies? If someone, is it the same if someone has insurance or if they don't have insurance? Like, is, how does insurance bill it versus how does someone buy it on their own?

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  If they, it's going to lower price for everybody. Anybody can go on Trump RX, whether they have insurance or not, and they can get it there.

• 1:28:13Joe Rogan?

  And they would buy it themselves?

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:15Joe Rogan?

  And so it'd be at a substantially lower price than they would have had in the past?

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:28:20Joe Rogan?

  If they buy it themselves. What if people are just getting it through insurance?

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Do they, you know, then they're...

• 1:28:25Joe Rogan?

  Does insurance lower it as well?

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, the copay is lowered.

• 1:28:29Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  And, you know, we had the first woman to buy a drug on it, the first customer was a woman who has been trying for years to do IVF. And the drug costs $4,000 and now I think it costs, you know, something like $600.

• 1:28:48Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and it's going to allow, you know, women, one out of every three women in this country does not have as many children as she wants and she can't have more. And IVF is going to be really important because our birth rate has just dropped. I mean dramatically this year, they dropped to 1.75, so.

• 1:29:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people don't understand that. You know, we've had a few conversations on this podcast about population decline and people just, most people are not aware of it. They just see how many people are on the highway. They think we're overcrowded. They don't understand this replacement number that we're going to need unless we want our population.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  The US is in a different situation than other countries. Japan is in total crisis.

• 1:29:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  China is in an existential crisis because, you know, its population is going to drop dramatically.

• 1:29:41Joe Rogan?

  South Korea?

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know, people want to immigrate here so we can make up the deficit through immigration. It's going to, you know, and that, we have that advantage, but we, you know, it's still the birth rate has dropped. It dropped one and a half, or it dropped from 1.9 this year to 1.75 and that affects social security. It affects, you know, it makes it so that the cliff for social security was pushed ahead by another year because of that drop in birth rate. So it's, it's not a good thing and, you know, American women want to have babies and a lot of them, a third of them cannot have as many children as they want.

• 1:30:27Joe Rogan?

  Um, what was the pushback when it came to things like removal of dyes?

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  The removal of dyes, again, we were, I think because of President Trump's leadership, we were able to convene the industry and talk to them about it. And a lot of them came in and said, yeah, you know, we know we got to change.

• 1:30:54Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, the only one that really.

• 1:30:55Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever ask them, why didn't you do it a long time ago?

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Well, they didn't have options and what we did.

• 1:31:02Joe Rogan?

  But didn't most of them, like for cereal, for example, didn't they have to have no unnatural dyes when they sent it to Canada?

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, the ones in Canada, but in our country, we hadn't approved a bunch of them. We only had one or two vegetable based dyes. Marty McCary, who's done a fantastic job at FDA, has now fast-tracked it this year, five new, or seven new ones. So we're working with the industry to make sure they have the dyes. And they're supposed to get rid of all the dyes by the end of this year. And that's gonna, you know.

• 1:31:37Joe Rogan?

  And so instead, they'll use just food-based dyes?

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, just vegetable, then vegetable and mineral-based dyes. And that's, you know, another thing that we did, again, through convene, two things that we did through convening industry because of President Trump's convening power. We fixed the prior authorization. So one of the most frustrating things that, that people go through when they encounter the healthcare system is, is that they have to wait for prior authorization from the insurance company. So you go in, your doctor tells you you need a knee replacement, and then it gets you, it takes you six months, the company to approve, for the insurance company to approve the surgery.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, it was infuriating for people, and really devastating and heartbreaking for a lot of them. And we got, we got the biggest insurance companies, representing 80% of the American public, all voluntarily agreed to eliminate prior authorization for almost all their procedures. A very small number now, I think 15% of the procedures still have it. And those are procedures we want prior authorization because there's a potential for abuse, for example, with spinal surgeries. A lot of people don't need the surgery. And Medicaid, Medicare wants to make sure that they actually need that surgery and it's beneficial to them.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  But for all the other ones, you will now know at point of care whether or not your insurance, so you go to your doctor, he says you need a knee surgery. Before you leave his office, you'll know whether the insurance company approves it or not. And that's going to dramatically change the medical experience. Another thing that we did, again, through convening industry, is we originally got 63

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  The top tech companies together and then we ended up final agreement with 405 of them to agree to stop information blocking. So your medical records are owned by you, but you can't get access to them a lot of times, most of the time. You're, the data company won't give them to you. And so we've got them all to agree to stop doing that. So by the end of this year, every American will be able to get their medical records on their cellphone. And that's going to dramatically change the medical experience. It's going to save lives because if you get hit, you know, you live in New Jersey, you get hit by a car in Portland, Oregon, you go to the hospital and you spend the first

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  two hours while you're bleeding out, you know, making out clipboards. Now, or you come in unconscious and they don't know what to do with you, they don't know anything about you. Now your medical records are on your cellphone. They can see if you have allergies, they can see what your blood type is, they can look at all of your, you know, previous medical records and make a, make good decisions about how to treat you. And that is, and also you're going to be able to sync that with, with food purchases apps so that you'll be able to go into a grocery store and the, the app will tell you, this

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  one is bad for you, this, you know, this, this choice is bad for you and offer you a better choice, et cetera. And there's an app like that, Yucca now, but there's a lot of them coming online now. What is it called? Yucca is the one, I think 50% of the people in France use Yucca, but it's Can you spell it? I think it's Y U C C A. Okay. Or Y U K A. I don't know, you can look it up. We use it, my wife uses it. You go into the grocery store. You go into the grocery store and you you put it on the barcode and then it rates each of the products about whether or not they're, you know, whether it's good or a

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  healthy one, and then it makes you a recommendation for a healthier one if it's if it's bad for you. And that is going to change the food culture in our country because the the company's already changing their ingredients so that they can get better scores from the Yuck app and from other apps that are like it. It's not the only one out there.

• 1:35:54Joe Rogan?

  But what about preservatives in processed foods? They're always going to exist, right? You're always going to have certain amount of preservatives in processed foods.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, first of all, we're not going to take processed foods away from people, but we're going to, I think we're going to change the amount of processed foods. One is, by April, we will have a federal definition of ultra-processed foods, first time in the history. And as soon as we do that, we're going to do front-of-packaged food labeling. So every food in your grocery store will have a label on it. It'll have maybe a green light, a red light, or a yellow light, telling you whether or not it's going to be good for you.

• 1:36:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  And that, you know, and it's going to evaluate all of the ingredients, etc. So, you know, I think we're not going to change this overnight, but we're going to change it pretty quickly. And if you want to be healthy, we're going to give you the information to take in charge of your own health. People just don't want to be healthy and don't care. There's not much you can do about it.

• 1:37:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  Most Americans want to be healthy, and they're, you know, we've seen that when they're allowed to make a healthy choice, they do. They do not want to be eating this poison.

• 1:37:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and ironically, the people that don't want to be healthy, they feel that way because they're not healthy. This episode is brought to you by the mosquito bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights and starring Nicholas Galitzin, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis.

• 1:37:53Joe Rogan?

  The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health

• 1:38:34Joe Rogan?

  plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H E L P dot com. If they wanted, if they were healthy, they would want to stay healthy. They're just, part of the reason why they're feeling this way is because they're unhealthy.

• 1:39:04Speaker 03

  You get demoralized.

• 1:39:05Joe Rogan?

  That's why they don't care. Yeah. Well, it's also like the, the mountain is so big. If you, if you're 300 pounds, like, oh my God, it's so much work to do something about this and not fall back on the old behaviors. And I don't know, other than by example, how you can get a large group of people to go along with that. You know, when someone like Jelly Roll loses, like, I think it's close to 300 pounds. When someone like that does that, you know, that's gonna help a lot of people.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:31Joe Rogan?

  Some kind of an example of a guy who just completely changed his lifestyle around, could change what he eats.

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  And he did it without IGLPs.

• 1:39:38Joe Rogan?

  Yes, he did.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  It was pretty amazing.

• 1:39:41Joe Rogan?

  Which brings me to peptides. Like, where are we at right now on peptides and getting them regulated and making sure it's not this weird gray area? Because we know they're effective, but we also know that there's a lot of pushback on peptides.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of peptides. I've used them myself and used them with really good effect, you know, with a couple of injuries. What happened was there were 19 peptides that you can, just so people understand, there's a law written that to allow compounding pharmacies to make compounds that were part of approved drugs. So, you know, part of approved ingredients of approved drugs, to make them individually

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  for patients who could, did not have access to the particular formulation that they needed to fit them, maybe if they had an allergy to the commercial brand or whatever. And the compounding pharmacies, and peptides was part of that group, there were 19 peptides that were widely formulated by compounding pharmacies during the Biden administration. They illegally moved those to category two, which says, "Do not formulate." It was illegal because they're not supposed to do that unless there's a safety signal. And they didn't have a safety signal. They're not allowed to look at efficacy.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  They're not allowed to say, "Well, we don't believe these are efficacious," or whatever. They can only look at safety. They moved those to category two, which means, "Do not formulate." What happened? There was huge demand for peptides. And so a black market came out. And the black market is run by companies that say that they're making the peptides for animal use or for research purposes. And the, um, and that peptide now basically completely replaced the legal market.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  The legal market for peptides, the, um, the, uh, uh, the pharmacies, the compounding pharmacies are getting those peptides from FDA inspected facilities. And some of them in India and China, but they were the same one that the pharmaceutical industries are buying them and we inspect those. You know, you're getting a, uh, a good product. You know, you're getting what you bought, what you, what was advertised. With the gray market, you have no idea. And a lot of this stuff that we've looked at is just, you know, is very, very substantial. Oh, I'm very anxious to move not, probably not all of those peptides.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Some of them are in litigation, um, but about 14 of them back to making them more accessible. And FDA is in the middle of, of, um, I think within a couple of weeks, we will have announced uh, some kind of new action. And my, you know, my hope is that they're gonna end up with, they're still looking at the science. My hope is that they're gonna get moved to a place where people have access from ethical suppliers.

• 1:43:09Joe Rogan?

  That's ultimately the, the problem with all this black market stuff, right? A lot of people are getting bogus peptides. And they don't have any idea how they, if they work, whether to test them. They just take a chance. They take a risk. They get a little flyer in their email or something. And, uh, they hear from somebody else, I got it from this place. They don't even know and they try it. And you're getting nonsense bogus peptides.

• 1:43:32Speaker 01

  I mean, we created the black market.

• 1:43:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  And it's a very dangerous black market.

• 1:43:37Joe Rogan?

  Which they've done during prohibition. They're doing it right now with everything else.

• 1:43:42Joe Rogan?

  It's unfortunate. I know there's been some talk about psychedelics, and I know that in particular Ibogaine, what's going on in Texas with the Ibogaine Initiative, where former Governor Rick Perry and Brian Hubbard have been helping a lot of veterans, a lot of people with like, serious opioid addictions, and this is the plan, to have this and run some programs, where you have this very effective way of getting people off addictions, that we have, for some reason, banned in America, up until, you know, these initiatives. I think, there's some stuff that can help a lot of people. I mean, how many people are addicted to opioids in this country? It's pretty high.

• 1:44:27Speaker 01

  A 48,000, 48 million.

• 1:44:30Joe Rogan?

  Have you looked into the Ibogaine stuff?

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Joe Rogan?

  What's your thoughts on it?

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  I don't know enough, and I don't think it's well documented enough, about whether, you know, its long-term impact on addiction, but in terms of just, sort of, the field of psilocybin, MDMA, and, there are lots and lots of good studies now, that clearly demonstrate, that, or strongly suggest, that it is effective against PTSD.

• 1:45:08Joe Rogan?

  PTSD.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, PTSD, sorry. And, you know, also, some forms of depression, etc. And, so, I would say, everybody in my agency, and over at VA, at Doug Collins' agency, is very anxious to get a rule out there that will allow these kind of studies, will allow access under therapeutic settings, and, you know, particularly to the military.

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  Soldiers who have suffered these injuries to get access to these products. We're working through that process now and you know, you have Marty McCary. I mean, we're all working on it and trying to, trying to make it happen.

• 1:45:56Joe Rogan?

  It would be great to extend that to police officers too, probably.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:00Joe Rogan?

  You know, I mean, a lot of the same type of PTSD they experience, it just doesn't get brought up as much.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  And if, you know, if you can, if you can treat depression and, you know, without using SSRIs, putting somebody a lifetime sentence to SSRIs, you can treat them. There's a number of things, not just psychedelics, but a number of interventions that we're looking at that are rapid interventions are more transformative than the way that psychedelics seem to rewire your brain. And so we're looking at that as an entire category of interventions that people ought to be able to study, ought to have good access to, and we should get it out to the public as quickly as possible.

• 1:46:46Joe Rogan?

  What would be the hurdles to something like that?

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  I think that we're gonna get it done.

• 1:46:54Joe Rogan?

  So how would that be implemented? Would it be implemented in a clinical setting? Would it be somewhere that-

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  For some of them, you know, for some of them, it would be that you can do, you know, to encourage more clinical trials. Now, there would just, it would be, it would be very strong guideline. I mean, this is what we're envisioning, so I can't tell you exactly what we're gonna do. But very, very strong guidelines for therapeutic guidelines. So how they're applied, what kind of follow-up, because a lot of these things rewire your brain. If you don't do follow-up, it doesn't work, you know, or you have a failure rate, so. You know, those kind of protocols are all stuff that we've been developing and studying. And we're, you know, I think most of the people in the administration are anxious to make

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  this happen as quickly as possible. And I know Doug Collins over at the VA already has, I think, 21 studies going over there. And they're, you know, they're very, very promising.

• 1:47:55Joe Rogan?

  And what are they using at the VA?

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  I think they're using combinations of MDMA and psilocybin, maybe using Ibogaine. And, you know, I think they're looking at a number of things, including IOI and Ibogaine.

• 1:48:11Joe Rogan?

  They shot down something fairly recently in California where they were going to decriminalize, were they going to decriminalize psilocybin, or they were gonna allow it for clinical use. But I think the problem that they had was, they didn't shut, they didn't say, we're completely opposed to it. They said, there's no guidelines in terms of like, how's it going to be clinically applied, who are going to be the people, what's the dosage?

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. You need those guidelines, because you don't want to make the wild west.

• 1:48:40Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  You're gonna have horror stories overnight, because people, as you know, you know, some people can have very, very bad experiences on that.

• 1:48:50Joe Rogan?

  Also, some people are on medications, and they should be very aware that this medication would go really badly with X amount of whatever.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Right. So, I mean, you know, we're looking at ways to get it done, so that it's in a very controlled setting.

• 1:49:05Joe Rogan?

  And so, would you envision a place like that, like, once it's implemented, where someone who's suffering from depression or PTSD, regardless of whether they're a soldier or cop, or just a regular person, could be able to go to a place like that and get treatment?

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  For me, you know, personally, I would like to see that. But, you know, I, we need to move in baby steps with this, because you don't want to create a situation where people are getting hurt.

• 1:49:35Joe Rogan?

  Right. And you don't want to create a situation where mentally unstable people snap, which can happen.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Which can happen.

• 1:49:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, that is, these are very powerful tools you're working with. It's like everything else. You can do it wrong. But...

• 1:49:52Joe Rogan?

  Just makes sense that if you had less depressed people, more happy people, more people connected, more people that can kind of let go of whatever traumatic experience they went through and just live a more joyful, productive life, which many people that have taken these substances have experienced. Like, it's not a cure-all for everything, it's not gonna fix everybody, it's not even for everybody, but deny people access.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  You shouldn't have a soldier who has given everything for the country, who has suffered terribly, who has to go to Tijuana to get these treatments, who has to leave our country in order to get the treatments, it doesn't make any sense.

• 1:50:30Joe Rogan?

  No, it doesn't, especially when so many of them have come back with these stories. Guys like Sean Ryan, a bunch of my friends have done it, and I had a good friend, my friend Ed Clay, who runs the CPI down in Tijuana, the Cellular Performance Institute, which is an amazing stem cell clinic down there, he went down there because he hurt his back and he got on pills and he couldn't get off them. Did ibogaine, got off them, he's like, "Oh my god, like, more people have to be aware of this, this really works." This is a thing that has been shown, I think it's in the 80% range when you do one treatment of, where people don't relapse, and it's in a 90% range with two treatments. I mean, it's incredibly effective, there's nothing like it.

• 1:51:13Joe Rogan?

  And yet, we've been denied, it also has like, no chance of you being addicted to it, it's a terrifying experience apparently, or at least very uncomfortable, it takes 24 hours, nobody wants to hop in and do it again, it's not like, "Hey, let's party and take ibogaine."

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  It's an ordeal.

• 1:51:30Joe Rogan?

  It's an ordeal, exactly, and that ordeal is extremely beneficial to people, but also like, severs the impulse of addiction in a lot of people, like, it's very successful at it.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I had a family member whose life was transformed by it, and you know, I've been in recovery for 43 years, so, and I go to a meeting every day, "Oh, it's pretty hard to convince me that you can fix what's wrong with you by taking something outside of you." But I have seen so much overwhelming anecdotal evidence, but also clinical studies.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  At a test who, you know, to the effect and is under some circumstance with some people or these medicines. Oh, you know, and I think you've got Jay Bhattacharya at NIH and Marty McCary at FDA, who are all, you know, doing whatever they can to make this happen.

• 1:52:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, I sincerely hope that more people consider it. And I think one of the big hopes that we have is when you have someone like former Texas Governor Rick Perry, who's a Republican, looking at this instead of from like, for the longest time, that was a left-wing perspective, right? Legalize marijuana, legalize psychedelics. It was not, you don't, you didn't hear about it from former Republican governors like Rick Perry. But when he sees the benefit that it has with veterans, which he cares very deeply about the veteran community, he's like, no, this is not something to ignore just because it's connected to hippies. You know, I don't know if you remember this, but Hunter Thompson, during whatever election he covered in fear and loathing on the campaign trail.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Seventy-three.

• 1:53:22Joe Rogan?

  When he put out that rumor that Ed Muskie was addicted to ibogaine. Brazilian witch doctors were coming and giving him ibogaine. It ruined that guy's career. But it's so funny that he chose that drug because it's like, no one's addicted to that. It's, it's got, that's not the risk. The risk is heart attacks. The risk is you have to have your heart monitored while you're doing it. It's like, it's very stressful for a lot of people. But on a clinical setting, it's shown to be incredibly effective, and I don't think we should ignore these things. I think it's foolish. And I think that is one that seems to have a bipartisan agreement on because a lot of people on the left have always been in favor of some kind of psychedelic therapy just

• 1:54:07Joe Rogan?

  based on experiences they've had that were positive, you know? But seeing it from the right is very, very encouraging because I think it's, it's something for human beings. It's not for everybody, but it's something, it's a tool that I have seen benefit many, many people. And we should use every tool that could help us be healthier and happier, period. That shouldn't be a right or a left issue. That's just silly. It's just dumb.

• 1:54:33Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 1:54:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it's shocking that that is an unusual perspective. But I think we've been propagandized for so long, particularly on certain things like, you know, just the blanket term of drugs, that all of them fall into this category of you trying to escape reality. And this one is literally the opposite. It's like you confronting reality and finding out why the pathways to certain destructive behaviors were set in your life and how to correct it.

• 1:55:06Joe Rogan?

  I think that'd be great for everybody.

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:55:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:11Joe Rogan?

  You've got, you're already a year in here, plus, and, you know, is it going as fast as you'd hoped, like, some of these reforms? Is there, is there, what are the, like, the main frustrations that you have to deal with?

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  I mean, I didn't know what to expect, and, you know, I didn't know, when I came in, I didn't know the president that well, so, you know, but from the beginning, he, he was empowering me. And, you know, I never made an agreement with him about anything, but, and the first time he asked me whether I wanted to be HHS secretary, I said, "I don't think so." I wanted to do some, I wanted to be maybe a health czar in the White House, and then I thought about it for a while and thought, "No, I really won't be effective if I, unless I'm in this agency and can actually, you know, get into the weeds and has 82,000 employees

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  and all, the biggest budget in government, and that would actually give me the power to, to change the system." And, and so then I went back to him and I said, you know, "I want HHS," and he said, "Fine." And then he allowed me to appoint all of my sub, you know, agency heads, which no president has ever done with an HHS secretary in history. He allowed me to appoint Marty McCary, choose Marty McCary, and FDA, Jay Bhattacharya, Dr. Oz, and CMS, and everybody else below them. So, nobody's ever been able to do that, and then he, you know, he gave me a very prominent job on the transition committee.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  To set this all in motion and then, once I got in, he supported me on everything. And that, I think, was, allowed me to do things more during. I, I think, I mean, I don't want to say, sound like, you know, vain or something, but because of the great team that we have and because of the support of the president, we've been able to accomplish more in one year than I think any other HHS secretary has done in history in four years. I'm pleased with what we've done, but there's still, I mean, it's the, it's 20% of our economy.

• 1:57:33Speaker 01

  And so it's a huge agency and there's, you know, it's in everything and there's a lot to do, but I think we're moving really fast.

• 1:57:41Joe Rogan?

  So, better than you'd hoped?

• 1:57:44Speaker 01

  I would say, yeah, if you put this on the table and said you could have this, you know, the first day I got in office, I would snatch it off and say, I'll take it.

• 1:57:55Joe Rogan?

  But, I mean, I could only imagine staring at that mountain when you're at the foot of it and realizing what a climb this is gonna be.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  But that's not how I approach it. I just did it one thing at a time. And there's something to fix every single day. And I have the smartest people in the country working with me. And, you know, we meet every day, me and Oz and Jay and now Chris Klum and Marty. We have a meeting every morning and we talk about what we're doing and about where we need to help each other. And, you know, it's a really, it's a very, very congenial team. We all feel like family with each other and we vacation together and, you know, it's,

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  I think, because of that, in former times, the HHS secretary has always been at odds with his departments. And, you know, under Biden and even under the previous Trump administration.

• 1:59:00Joe Rogan?

  Why do you think that was?

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  I, because, I think part of it is personalities. They're all kind of, you know, alpha people. They have different ideas. And, and then they, I don't know. I mean, we I think a lot of that is just personality and struggling for

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  for power and influence and all of that kind of stuff. You know, you want to run your own agency and you don't want interference. And we've been able to do it in ways that are very, very collegial.

• 1:59:41Joe Rogan?

  I wanted to ask you about pesticides. So what was the recent ruling on glyphosate?

• 1:59:47Speaker 01

  I was on a EO, which is an executive order from the president, saying that we're going to make the ingredients for glyphosate in this country and for elemental phosphorus. And, you know, I've, listen, I've spent 40 years fighting pesticides. It was, I was part of the trial team on the Monsanto case, which was the team that, you know, we won three cases in a row and then got an $11 billion settlement with Monsanto, which is now Bayer. By the end of our trial, Bayer owned Monsanto. But, you know, pesticides are poison. They're

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  designed to kill all life. It's not a good thing to have in your food. So, but I also, so it's not something that I was particularly happy with. Let me put it that way mildly. But I also understand the president's point of view. The president didn't create the system. He's dealing with a problem that was created long before, over the past 60 years, when, you know, through federal policies and subsidies and the management of farming in this country, the agricultural management, we have addicted our farmers to these pesticides, and particularly glyphosate. Glyphosate is the foundational pesticide of our food

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  production system. So 97% of corn in this country is produced with glyphosate and can't be produced without it. 98% of, you know, you could do it. You could change it. There's organic corn producers in this country. It's like 3%.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  Ninety-eight percent of soy is produced with glyphosate. If you banned glyphosate overnight, or if you got rid of it, or if somebody else cut off our supply, it would, it would destroy the American food system.

• 2:01:52Joe Rogan?

  How crazy is that statement? The American foods, the entire system is based on using the poison.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Right. The farmers don't like it. You know, let me just explain what the E O did. Right now, according to the industry reports, ninety-nine percent of our glyphosate comes from China. Oh, the Pentagon and others said this is an extreme national security vulnerability, that China controls the US food system. And we can't afford to let that happen. If we got in some kind of tangle with them, it could literally cut off our food supply overnight and cripple the country. And, and so that's what the president was responding to. But we all know we've got to transition off of glyphosate. We all know that. And the farmers hate it.

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  For one, you know, they're now starting to see these, these chemical resistant weeds, so that that can't be treated with glyphosate. Now it's predictable. Two, they hate the inputs. It's cost them a lot of money. Three, the foreign countries won't allow them to export. Like Europe doesn't allow, most European countries don't allow the export of our crops to their countries.

• 2:03:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, how are they doing it?

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  They use less glyphosate than we do.

• 2:03:18Joe Rogan?

  But they...

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  Or they use some. They use it, but you know, our system was, is all round-up ready corn and round-up ready soy. And so they don't, you know, they don't use it like we do over here.

• 2:03:33Joe Rogan?

  Ideally, that we would transition away from that, right?

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's also, they know it's destroying their soil. And they're all suffering from runoff. You know, it destroys the microbiome in the soil. And because of that, the soil can't, you don't get water infiltration in the soil.

• 2:03:53Speaker 01

  And so the soil then runs off and you know it's destroying their farms. It's not sustainable. Everybody knows that.

• 2:04:01Joe Rogan?

  We had Will Harris from White Oak Pastures on here and he showed us the literal line in the river between his organic farm and the next door neighbor's farm. We could see this clear line where all the runoff is going into the river.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Will Harris will also tell you the same thing that I said is that what he did is, you know, is very hard and it's not.

• 2:04:23Joe Rogan?

  Took him 20 years.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:04:25Joe Rogan?

  Took him 20 years.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  It took him 20 years and it's not applicable to every farmer.

• 2:04:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  You know, he understands the problem too. We all understand that this is a huge problem. The president was dealing with national security and they did something that I really don't like, which is to support. There's a lawsuit about, that's now before the Supreme Court, but in the lower court they supported, is ask for federal preemption. So that would mean that if the, if the federal label says that this is safe, that the state lawsuits now cannot be brought. So it would throw out a lot of the state lawsuits and effectively gives them immunity

• 2:05:11Speaker 01

  from liability, which, which is, you know, to me, it's not good to give any company immunity from liability. It takes away all incentive for them to make the product safer. Again, the president is dealing with bigger issues, which is the company that's making this has paid $11 billion to, you know, in my lawsuit, they just, they're just about to sign another $7.6 billion settlement. There are 65,000 cases out there and they've said, we're getting out of this business, you know, if this, if we don't get relief. So the president is hearing that, the farmers are hearing that, and they're saying that, you know, this is a temporary fix.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  We're putting huge amounts of money into studying the impacts of glyphosate right now in my agency. I'm doing that. And we're doing, and the president has made a big commitment, a billion dollar commitment, not only to regenerate farming, but also to developing new ways of chemical, of dramatically reducing the amount of chemicals in our agriculture. I met this week with three farmers who are using this new system of lasers, which is now the cheapest way to control weeds in the vegetable fields. So, you know, vegetables,

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  lettuce, celery, all of these vegetables, now they're using, a lot of them, you know, you're gonna see a very quick transition. It's a, it's a, an attachment that is dragged by a tractor. It kills the weeds at every stage of their life. It identifies their species and kills them instantly, all the way down through their root system by exploding them with this laser. And, yeah, here, here's one of the-

• 2:07:06Joe Rogan?

  Is this what it looks like?

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what it looks like. And this guy, so I-

• 2:07:12Joe Rogan?

  Can I ask you this?

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Does this have any negative effect whatsoever on the food?

• 2:07:16Speaker 01

  No. In fact, you get a 30% increase in productivity of the farm, and the growing season is shortened by three weeks for onions. So, and that is a huge economic boom.

• 2:07:29Joe Rogan?

  You just zap the weeds?

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  It pays itself back, and for some of these farmers, it pays itself back in, in nine, nine months. It's a million dollar, that's a million dollar machine, but it pays back, they're paying, vegetable field, this onion producer in South Texas, the biggest onion producer in Texas, she has 8,000 acres. She was paying $1,500 per acre for pesticides for mainly glyphosate and for manual labor. And now with this machine, it's $300. She's saving over $1,000 an acre.

• 2:08:06Joe Rogan?

  Is this showing how it does it to me?

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  She's got 8,000 acres. So, it's a million dollar machine, which sounds like a lot, but you got 8,000 acres and you're paying 1,500 bucks an acre per growing season.

• 2:08:15Joe Rogan?

  They missed one.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  And you know, now they're making them on drones.

• 2:08:21Joe Rogan?

  Maybe it was a crop. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  There's all these kind of new, exciting technologies that give us a light at the end of the tunnel to transition, and it could be very, very fast. What the president wants to do is accelerate that. He says, "Yeah, we've got, we can't allow the company to go bankrupt. We can't allow foreign interference, but we gotta get off of this stuff. We gotta give these farmers an off-ramp so that they can get off it, because they don't want to be on it. Nobody wants to be on it."

• 2:08:50Joe Rogan?

  Without crashing the food system. So this is a bridge. This is a bridge to health.

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:08:55Joe Rogan?

  So the path you think would be technologies like this for weeds. What about for bugs?

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  You know, it's harder. These systems are more difficult. They're not yet economic in the, in the cornfield, the row crops. They're economic for organic corn. And I talked to an organic corn farmer who's in love with his machine. But, yeah, they can do it for bugs, too.

• 2:09:21Joe Rogan?

  So they just zap the bug?

• 2:09:22Speaker 01

  They zap the bug. They identify them and zap them. But in the row crops, you know, these guys, the vegetable crops are paying fifteen hundred bucks an acre. The row crops are fifty bucks an acre. And so to get economically to their level, they have to scale enormously. So that is, you know, how do we help them do that? How do we bring Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and billionaires in to start investing really heavily in these kind of technologies? And let's get off of this stuff.

• 2:09:54Joe Rogan?

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• 2:10:27Joe Rogan?

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• 2:11:09Joe Rogan?

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• 2:11:54Joe Rogan?

  of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, backed by a 90-day money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/joe. What are the primary health concerns about people that consume too much glyphosate? Or is there a threshold? I know there's a safe level that's supposed to be detectable in your blood. What does that mean in terms of...

• 2:12:19Speaker 01

  I don't know if there's any safe level. I don't know.

• 2:12:22Joe Rogan?

  I shouldn't even say there is a...

• 2:12:24Speaker 01

  That is what we are trying to figure out right now. And it's associated with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. There's a scientific association, but it's not strong enough for people to litigate on. The litigation was all about non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

• 2:12:44Joe Rogan?

  Only that?

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, because that's the one thing that they had a critical mass of scientific studies supporting.

• 2:12:51Joe Rogan?

  Now, what about when they use it at the end of production?

• 2:12:57Speaker 01

  It definitely disrupts it, sorry, your gut biome.

• 2:13:00Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:13:01Speaker 01

  It, it, it is, um, it's the, the, the advantage of glyphosate is unlike the other poisons, it doesn't harm organic tissue, but it goes after plants, not animal tissue. Your stomach microbiome is plants and, uh, and so, you know, um, there's, uh, you know, it may contribute to this, the celiac disease and all these gluten allergies. It was co-terminus with that, you know, the introduction of glyphosate of, of, of Roundup Ready Corn, you know what Roundup Ready Corn is, right?

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  Means that you can spray the field and everything green dies except for the corn, which is immune to glyphosate. That's why it's so advantageous to them. It saves huge labor costs and it's, it allows them to, you know, to sell the corn at a price that people can afford. Um, the, you know, one of the most controversial uses is a desiccant. And that means that there is no Roundup Ready Wheat. So normally they weren't using this in the wheat field. Around 2003, they started using it to dry out the wheat just before harvest. And that way they can harvest it without getting fungus on it and without getting mold on it.

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  And for the first time, they were spraying it right on food. And so that is real, you know, the major factor for getting into human beings. And, you know, around 2003 is when you started seeing these explosions and celiac disease and gluten allergies. There's no clear scientific evidence that it's related, but you know, there is a, uh, you know, there's some signals out there that now we're looking at it. HHS, for the first time, they should have been looking at this 30 years ago. And, um, but, you know, they're not, but we're doing it now.

• 2:15:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a lot of anecdotal stories about people going to Italy or Spain and France, eating bread over there, not having any problem with it at all and being so confused. And then also people coming from Europe and eating in America and getting sick.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  And I don't know whether that, there's no telling whether that's glyphosate or other pesticides or whatever, but.

• 2:15:20Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it's just something.

• 2:15:22Speaker 01

  I have a, I have a son who had chronic eczema from when he was a kid, a disease I never heard of as a kid and everybody's got it now. And he would get it any time that he ate spaghetti or, or bread or, you know. And he went, and he went to the University of Bologna, he went to Brown, and then he took a year at the University of Bologna and he ate spaghetti three meals a day and had no problem. And so, and you hear, there's, you know, there's hundreds of stories like that that we've all heard.

• 2:15:54Joe Rogan?

  I feel different when I go to Italy. When I go to Italy and I eat over there, I feel different. I feel different if I use, there's a restaurant that, um, I, called Gaetano's in Las Vegas in Henderson, and they use all Italian flour, they import it all from Italy. You could, it tastes different. It feels different. You don't feel terrible after you eat it. There's a, something's wrong with our food and everybody knows it. And the fact that it's become a left-wing or a right-wing issue is one of the dumbest decisions we've ever made as a country. And I know that a lot of it is, again, a lot, a lot of, a lot of propaganda, a lot of, a lot of these narratives trying to push people into thinking that things aren't dangerous because right-wing people believe in them and that it's nonsense and it's just, I don't

• 2:16:39Joe Rogan?

  know what that pathway is. When you're dealing with monocrop agriculture and you have these enormous farms and you say 98% is based on glyphosate use or whatever it is, like, how do we get those people to ultimately transition? And if they do, could they even produce enough of their product to stay viable?

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  I can tell, I mean, I've met with over 100 farmers and developing the food guidelines, our team. And, you know, I've been doing agricultural issues for thirty years. I can tell you, farmers are the most hardworking people that I've ever met. They are good people. They want to produce the healthiest foods, and they don't want, the inputs are killing them. They're, you know, seven out of ten years, farmers lose money. And there's no young people moving to the farm country anymore. So, you know, we, we really need to do what we can to make sure we don't lose any more farms in this country. And that's what the

• 2:17:39Speaker 01

  president's worried about. That has to be his priority. But he also wants to make sure that we accelerate the, the off-ramps, the development of off-ramps, that they can transition off of this. And we're putting huge amounts of money into regenerative agriculture. People like, you know, Mr. Harris and, and, you know, and meeting with him, at Brook Rollins, and meeting with these guys all the time, trying to figure out, how do we help you? How do we help other farmers to do what you're doing? And, you know, that is a priority for the administration.

• 2:18:18Joe Rogan?

  Do you envision a possibility, a real possibility, of a country that is all regenerative agriculture with no pesticides? Is that even possible? That we could get to a point, whether it's a decade from now, or two decades from now, where we've completely eradicated the uses of these harmful chemicals?

• 2:18:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that's gonna happen. You know, I think technology is gonna allow us that to happen. But, you know, you're gonna have a lot of robotic farming happening. And that's another question, but...

• 2:18:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, that's robotic with these lasers. This is essentially what you're doing.

• 2:18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  And you're gonna have drones doing this. You know, you'll have drone swarms over farms, killing the insects.

• 2:19:05Joe Rogan?

  What about industrial fertilizer? What would be the solution to that?

• 2:19:09Speaker 01

  And that's a little more difficult, particularly in some parts of the country. You know, you need nutrients in the soil, but there's ways of growing and, you know, Harris has shown this, where you can dramatically reduce the amount of petroleum-based fertilizers that you're using dramatically, almost eliminate them.

• 2:19:34Joe Rogan?

  Sure, but the scale of his farm and the scale of the production in comparison to these monocrop agriculture places that produce corn, I mean, these people are dealing with enormous amounts of crops. The question is, could that be scaled regeneratively? Could you get it to a point where you have organic farms only?

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  You know, I think with technology, you're gonna eliminate a lot of the pesticides and the herbicides. I think that it's gonna be much slower when you talk about fertilizers.

• 2:20:11Joe Rogan?

  But is there a pathway for that?

• 2:20:13Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 2:20:15Joe Rogan?

  But you haven't?

• 2:20:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:20:16Joe Rogan?

  No. She was so far off.

• 2:20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's gonna be after my three years before that happens.

• 2:20:24Joe Rogan?

  Do you, I mean, if someone else wins and they want you to stay, are you gonna stay? Do you have a thought of that, or do you want to do as much as you can in four years?

• 2:20:34Speaker 01

  Well, whatever happens, because you can't tell what's gonna happen in the election, that I will, I'm gonna, I'm gonna act as if I got three years to do everything. And if I, you know, get more time, then I would probably take it.

• 2:20:52Joe Rogan?

  How many days a week are you working?

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  Well, I work. I mean, I'm working. When I'm home, I'm working. It doesn't, it doesn't stop.

• 2:21:02Joe Rogan?

  It's just your life.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  And then we have a president who has, you know, never stops working, and he's up till 11, 12 at night, you know, which you can get a call at that point.

• 2:21:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:12Speaker 01

  He says, "Were you sleeping 2 o'clock in the morning?" "Yeah, no, no, of course not, I was working."

• 2:21:21Speaker 01

  He's an interesting guy to work for.

• 2:21:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's got a lot of energy for an old guy.

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  He's got an incredible amount of it. I've never seen anything like it, and particularly with the food he eats.

• 2:21:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  I don't know how he does it.

• 2:21:32Joe Rogan?

  He's still eating mostly, I mean...

• 2:21:34Speaker 01

  He, I've never seen it. Well, let me put it this way. When he's on the road, he eats like fast food, because he trusts it.

• 2:21:44Speaker 01

  He doesn't want to, he doesn't want to eat in some local place where, you know, he gets food poisoning or something. But when he's at home, at the White House or Mar-a-Lago, it is the, you know, it's all like locally sourced incredible food.

• 2:22:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's good.

• 2:22:03Speaker 01

  So he eats well. I mean, but he still drinks. Dana White told me that he's known him for 20 years and he's never seen him drink water.

• 2:22:12Joe Rogan?

  Just drinks Coca-Cola? What does he drink? Diet Coke, right?

• 2:22:15Speaker 01

  Diet Coke, yeah.

• 2:22:15Joe Rogan?

  Doesn't he, you know, I just had Michael Malice and he was talking about how he got off Aspartame and how his brain fog just completely cleared up. He drinks Diet Coke every day.

• 2:22:24Speaker 01

  That is a really sleazy saga about how that got into our...

• 2:22:29Joe Rogan?

  We talked about it the other day. Yeah, we brought it up. Donald Rumsfeld.

• 2:22:33Speaker 01

  Donald Rumsfeld.

• 2:22:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:36Speaker 01

  And there was a really good FDA commissioner back then, named David Kennedy. No relation, but he was, he was a guy from Stanford. I think he was the president of Stanford for a while. And he was really good, had total integrity. He was like David Kessler and other really great FDA had. And he banned Aspartame and then Rumsfeld came in there and just overruled them. Rumsfeld had owned Searl, you know, which was making it.

• 2:23:12Speaker 01

  That's how it worked.

• 2:23:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's why this time with you in office has been encouraging. I mean, you doing the things that you wanted to do was, to me, the most interesting thing about this administration going in. Because I knew your conviction. I had read your Fauci book, and I'm like, if anybody could do something about this, it's you. And I'm kind of amazed at how much you have been able to do, and also, you know, watching the struggle, the difficulties of getting things pushed through that should have been pushed through easily with rational thinking. It's a fascinating time, because we are in a time of change. Some of it's good, some of it's bad.

• 2:23:56Joe Rogan?

  But we're definitely in a time of change, and that's not something you can say about every administration. It's definitely not something you can say about everybody that's been the head of the HHS. You're the first guy that gave me hope when you got in there. I'm like, okay, maybe we'll see some meaningful change with some things that are really important for people's health. I think...

• 2:24:16Speaker 01

  Oh, we're doing it.

• 2:24:17Joe Rogan?

  I think you are. I think you're doing it. Is there anything else you want to talk about, any other subjects you want to cover?

• 2:24:22Speaker 01

  You know, why don't you ask me about immigration, because I know that that's something that's disturbed you.

• 2:24:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, what are your thoughts on immigration? On what's going on with...

• 2:24:32Speaker 01

  Well, you know, here's the background, my kind of assumptions. During the last 10 years of his life, I worked very closely with Cesar Chavez. And I worked with him, he had two issues. He had pesticides, which were a huge issue with him, and that's what I worked with him on, on the dangers that, you know, his workers were experiencing from pesticides. And the other issue he had was immigration. He wanted to shut down the border, because he saw the way that it was impairing this huge influx of illegal immigration across the border was impairing his ability to get,

• 2:25:14Speaker 01

  to bargain, to leverage good wages and conditions for his workers. When I grew up, the Democratic Party was against immigration, and it was the Republican Party who wanted it, because the big corporations wanted cheap labor. The Chamber of Commerce was firmly embedded in the Republican Party and they were all about open borders. And A, the Chamber of Commerce is with the Democratic Party. And so it's one of these switches that is kind of inexplicable to me, but I think, again, it happened because President Trump said, "I'm gonna fix it with a wall," and that became, you know, it suddenly became open borders, suddenly became a calling card for the Democratic Party.

• 2:25:56Speaker 01

  But there's a reason, you know, and I see it in my agency, the cause that it's imposing on our country. And, you know, on healthcare, diminishing healthcare for Americans and housing and jobs and all of these places where it hurts that we need workers in here and we need legal immigrants in here, but they should come in legally and every country has to do that. As in Trump ran on this issue, he's now, and he ran that he's gonna enforce and deport particularly the bad people. This is what you don't hear. Seventy percent of the people that they've arrested are, have criminal records.

• 2:26:40Speaker 01

  What the Democrats are always saying is only fourteen percent of them have been convicted of a violent crime. Well, they've been convicted, but a lot of them, the other ones have been arrested and they just haven't been convicted yet because they jumped, you know, bail or they, you know, they jumped their warrants. The other thirty percent, a lot of them are gang members. When they go looking for an immigrant, they're not just randomly searching, you know, restaurants. They're going after particular people who they've gotten their names from local law enforcement and from others. During the Biden or during the Obama administration, President Obama deported more people than President Trump did, the most in history.

• 2:27:24Speaker 01

  Nobody cares. And there were seventy-six people shot during that process, during the Biden administration. None of it made headlines. About half of those people were killed. None of it made the news. Now, because it's Trump doing it, you have the entire Democrat Party and the media establishment saying, "Oh, look at the horrible things. He's a dictator, but he's doing what he promised to do to the American people." It's very disturbing watching what you see on TV. The thing that makes it most disturbing is because there's so much interaction with protesters,

• 2:28:06Speaker 01

  which is weird that the Democrats are telling protesters to go out there and stop law enforcement from doing its job. If you... That's not how protests usually work. If you don't like US drug policy, which you don't, and a lot of people don't, a lot of people don't like the war on drugs at all. They think it's counterproductive. You wouldn't send people to try and interfere with people who are arresting a drug dealer. And when you have thousands and thousands of people doing that, there's going to be thousands of interactions, and some of those are going to end badly because you have armed people doing dangerous things.

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  And when you have crowds doing that, it's going to blow up. And so, you know, I see this, you know, nobody is happy with the way that things have looked, particularly in Minnesota. But a lot of it is because of this capacity of the press to take Trump derangement syndrome and amplify it into public outrage and then set up a situation. I mean, if you were, you're a dad, I wouldn't send my kids out to interfere with a law enforcement operation. There's other ways to protest.

• 2:29:29Speaker 01

  So I think that, you know, I think now they're pulling out of Minnesota and they're going to do this, you know, in other states where they're not going to get that kind of crowd interaction.

• 2:29:40Speaker 01

  But a lot of the people that they're arresting are not, you know, they're, they're people who are actually, you know, have, like I said, 70% have had criminal records.

• 2:29:50Joe Rogan?

  Uh, yeah, we've, we've actually covered that here. And then there's also the issue that this is the first time in history that the border's been wide open for four years. It's a different thing. It's a different thing when you have at least 10 million people. They don't even know how many for real.

• 2:30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it could be 20 million.

• 2:30:07Joe Rogan?

  They don't know. And that's a lot. And to have that happen all at once is pretty crazy. What I think what, what disturbs people is, again, obviously these violent interactions. What should disturb them is that these are not organic protests. So these protests are organized and paid for. And that's crazy.

• 2:30:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:30:27Joe Rogan?

  When you find that out and you find out that people can actually be paid to protest and that they provide them with signs, they tell them what they do, it's organized, they have Signal chats. There's been a lot of people online talking about being paid to protest in certain places. And that's kind of insane that that's even legal. That you can organize a mob and pay them to go and make a bunch of noise.

• 2:30:49Speaker 01

  It's like the color revolution.

• 2:30:51Joe Rogan?

  Right, exactly.

• 2:30:52Speaker 01

  But they're doing it here.

• 2:30:53Joe Rogan?

  And that it happened, just happened to take place in the place where hundreds of millions of dollars of fraud was being exposed. So then the narrative completely shifts away from the fraud and onto this unnecessary violence with ICE. And then there's the natural thing that people have, this distrust of people wearing masks. They don't like that. They don't like officers wearing masks. But on the other side, they have to wear masks because they're being doxxed and their families are being threatened and you're filming everything they do and you're these organized instigators. So if it wasn't for organized protest, I wonder if those particular interactions would have even happened, would have even taken place. And

• 2:31:36Joe Rogan?

  I know you're saying that they don't, that they're targeting specific people. They're going after bad people. But also, they're showing up at Home Depot and just grabbing people too. And trying to find out if someone is a bad guy or a good guy. So there's probably a lot of people that are just, people that got duped into coming to this country thinking they're gonna be welcomed. And then they come over here and they're trying to get jobs. And now they're getting arrested and deported. You know, it wasn't their fault that they were encouraged and brought into this country, but they did break the law. And I understand, I understand that perspective. But it's kind of insane that no one is pointing the blame at the fact that they let at least 10 billion people, or 10 million, excuse me,

• 2:32:19Joe Rogan?

  people into this country over the last four years, at least, being charitable. It's kind of nuts.

• 2:32:24Speaker 01

  And I was down at the border and, you know, I was, during my presidential campaign, I went down there and, I went down a bunch of times. But the first night I went down there to Tucson, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was like the Boston Marathon, the beginning of it, just the sheer number. And they were, you know, they all had it planned. The cartels were all, you know, running the whole thing. They were advertising all over the world and, and bringing people in. And everybody was, the Border Patrol was completely demoralized. They were told, "Don't arrest anybody. Just fingerprint them if they're a criminal, turn them back."

• 2:33:06Speaker 01

  But, you know, most of these people, they couldn't figure that out. And, and otherwise, put them on a bus or a plane to anywhere they wanted to go in the country. So it was just, uh...

• 2:33:16Joe Rogan?

  And at the same time, you have legitimate people that are doing it the right way, that have to go through a long and difficult, lengthy process to attain citizenship and to come here, or get a green card and come here.

• 2:33:26Speaker 01

  Right, the whole thing was crazy. And that, you know, one of the complicated issues that you have now, a bunch of sanctuary cities and sanctuary states. And it used to be that if somebody who was an illegal immigrant was arrested for a crime...

• 2:33:43Speaker 01

  And put in the local jail, they, ICE was notified. So ICE would then come and they, local law enforcement would transfer it to ICE. In the sanctuary cities, they don't do that. They just let them go. And, you know, it's not.

• 2:33:59Joe Rogan?

  How is that legal? That seems insane. That seems like it's a violation.

• 2:34:03Speaker 01

  Because it was never a law, it was just a policy, you know, that law enforcement always cooperated with each other. Now, because Trump's in there, they're saying, okay, we would rather take the, you know, the side of, of, you know, a criminal than take the side of the president. So they're all, they're choosing sides. And it's part of, it's like the other day, during the, during the State of the Union speech, when President Trump said, he was talking about immigration, and he said, please stand up if you think that law enforcement should protect the American people over illegal immigrants, and not a single Democrat stood.

• 2:34:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:46Speaker 01

  How can you, how can you do that?

• 2:34:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what we were talking about earlier, what you were saying. It's just they're, they're ideologically captured. Yeah. I mean, that should be something. If you want to be taken seriously, you're a reasonable person, you would stand up for that.

• 2:34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It just, it really disturbs people when you see masked people grabbing people.

• 2:35:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:35:07Joe Rogan?

  Arresting people, and a lot of them turn out to be American citizens. You know, that's part of the problem, too. But I did look at a chart recently, because I thought it was fascinating, the number of American citizens that were arrested, what percentage during what Obama did versus during Trump. It's actually, I think, higher. More American citizens were arrested during this Obama thing. You just never heard about it. Also, if you hear Obama talk about immigration, if you hear Hillary talk about immigration, or if you hear Bill talk about immigration, you would swear they were running for president as a Republican. Like, if you listen to the things they were saying back then, it was very much the Republican perspective.

• 2:35:48Speaker 01

  Well, that was the Democratic Party always was, was, you know, against an open border.

• 2:35:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Bernie even said, it's like, open borders are, that's a Republican idea. They want cheap labor. Yeah.

• 2:36:02Joe Rogan?

  So, alright. Anything else?

• 2:36:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:36:05Joe Rogan?

  Before we wrap this up?

• 2:36:05Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:36:06Joe Rogan?

  Listen, thank you very much for all your hard work. And it's really, it's very exciting for me to have someone like you doing what you're doing. Because I do know that you really want to push for meaningful change. It's genuinely gonna help. And I think, you know, so far, you're on a good path. So, I hope we can get all the other stuff done, too.

• 2:36:24Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, Joe. And thanks for the conversation.

• 2:36:26Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure.

• 2:36:27Speaker 01

  And thanks for all of your conversations.

• 2:36:29Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure. Thanks for being here. Alright.