Why Facebook Will Keep Building For Kids — With Michael Sayman

Michael Sayman was 16 years old when Facebook recruited him to join the company. The overture arrived as he was sitting in math class, and the teacher promptly took away his iPad. Sayman joins Big Technology Podcast to discuss why and how Facebook builds products for kids and teens (something he has intimate knowledge of) and the reasons why it won't stop. You can find Sayman's new book, App Kid, here: https://amzn.to/3uNDazI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put Agentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, head of enterprise business solutions at Voya Financial, to go inside a large-scale Agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions, trade-offs, and lessons along the way. You can watch both conversations now on my YouTube channel today. It's never been more challenging to get frontier compute. How do you know where to look, who to trust, or how much to pay?

• 0:43Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 1:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Hello and welcome to the Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond. And we have quite a show for you today. Facebook has been in the news for its desire to recruit pre-teens and the harmful effects that some of its products, including Instagram, has on teens, although that's been a bit of a subject of debate. Facebook's put out some of its own data after the Wall Street Journal put out a few damning stories about what Facebook does. Anyway, instead of speculating about this, why don't we bring in someone who's worked on products inside Facebook that in particular are all about attracting teams? And he's with us here today, Michael Sayman.

• 1:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  He's a former Facebook product manager, you had a group product manager, right?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he had a group of people working on products that might appeal to younger folks. And he's the author of the new book, App Kid, out in stores already. And I encourage you to get it. It's a tale of Michael's journey as, I think, the youngest product manager ever to work inside Facebook. And it's filled with rich insights about his time there. So, Michael, welcome to the show.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Thanks. Thanks for having me. Excited to talk about this.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, likewise. So, first of all, let's just start with your personal story. You were appealing to Mark Zuckerberg in particular because of your work on products that could attract a younger demographic to Facebook. Is that right?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I actually, I got my start kind of building games as a kid when I was like thirteen, fourteen. From there, I guess the book kind of goes into the details of how my family ended up in a financial dilemma after the recession hit and they had lost their jobs and we lost our home. Due to that, I kind of felt this urge and I guess really necessity to to build apps that then provided for my family. And so I started building games, started building apps to do that out of the necessity. Over time, I started getting really good at it in high school.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  And I was building a couple of games that started getting more attention and more downloads. A couple of those games reaching millions of users, at which point

• 3:44Speaker 02

  the craziest thing in my life happened, which was in the middle of a math class in high school, I get an email from Facebook saying that Mark Zuckerberg wanted to meet with me. And I thought it was so strange because, I mean, I just, I didn't think there was anything to meet with me about other than maybe like, I don't know, like, I didn't think what I did was that impressive. So.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  And how old were you at the time?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  I was sixteen at the time. So it was really interesting.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  What, you were in math class when you got the email from Zuckerberg?

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, and I got my iPad taken away from me by my teacher one day in the middle of the class, so.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  That's a bit of a panicky moment. Um, but yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  So I, yeah, so that's kind of how everything started, right? I had built those games and that's kind of how I got uh recruited into Facebook at, I guess, such a young age at the time.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  So when did you officially start as a Facebook employee? Were you initially too young to even be an employee?

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, so I actually started out uh before I was eighteen and um my parents actually had to sign a release and my parents were the ones to sign the NDA and the whole deal uh when I joined.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  The company, which is.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  So you were, you were seventeen or something like that?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was seventeen when I started.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, my parents signed uh uh the contracts for that, which was odd because I guess my parents were being paid by Facebook for me working there. Um. So if you think about it, that's like a interesting model. Um, but yeah, that was essentially how I got started. And then, of course, once I turned eighteen, they rewrote a new contract. I actually got, you know, full-time actual employee and I got my start there. So, yeah.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Wild. Okay, so what is, you know, you met with Mark Zuckerberg, of course. Um. What in particular was the appeal of having you work for Facebook? And I'm going to give you a bit of a leading question. I imagine it was because younger kids are Facebook's next batch of users. They had to figure out how to attract them. And you, seventeen-year-old, talented developer, might have been someone who was their route in.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I, I would say, I would say that like Facebook operates very similarly to how a lot of the major media companies have operated in the past, like Disney or um Comcast, where they have networks and they have shows and they have programs that cater to different demographics and they're continuously on the hunt to try and understand the next generation, right? What's the next group going to be interested in? What's the next trend that's coming up? And how do those people work, right? So. Facebook was started by college kids for college kids and it was very easy in that regard because they didn't have to do a lot of research. They could just ask themselves what they wanted and they built it. Um, but as they started aging up and they started becoming older and having kids and having that whole situation.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Um, this was maybe around twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. Um, they started, I think, to realize that, you know, the, the next generation of internet users uh that are hopping onto these devices every day. Um, they don't understand. They frankly don't have the experience of. So, I guess from there, they kind of took it upon themselves to try and not only research and understand those demographics, but also bring in more people from those groups and those generations to come and work for them. And so I think that's kind of where, where that came from with me.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  So I want to uh read you a quote from one of the recent Wall Street Journal articles. Facebook is always telling us about how it, it, its products make people, people's lives better and how it believes in connection and that's why folks, you know, should use it. Um, but it's also a company that depends on growth to survive. And like you mentioned, you know, it sort of needs the young to come in. If it's gonna have any chance of competing. The, there's a slide in the Wall Street Journal. It says, why do we care about tweens? I'm gonna pause here because I think that, you know, the answer they tell the public is they care about tweens. I mean, it's amazing tweens, like what, ten, eleven, twelve year olds, right?

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Uh, you would imagine that they would, you know, find the way to have, uh, they care about them because they think the Facebook product could benefit them in some way, at least if you listen to what they say in public. But what's their answer on that internal slide? It's, they are a valuable but untapped audience. That's why they care about tweens. That's very different from what we hear from the company usually. So when you were inside. Yeah, I'm kind of curious what you think. Is it a purely like, you know, we got to hook them, you know, young, because we were talking in this moment about Instagram kids and Messenger for Kids. And, you know, the Facebook executives will like proudly go in front of the media and say, I need my children to have these products will make their lives better. It will help me stay in touch with them.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Um, but then you look internally and it's all about the unt, I mean, it really seems, it feels like a mine, right? They are valuable but untapped audience. It's like this mine, this, this is a valuable but untapped mountain filled with ore. What do you think? Maybe I'm being too negative.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  I think, I think the, I think the language that a lot of these types of slides tend to have within companies comes from researchers, data scientists who kind of frame everything that they do in terms of these types of words, right? Like, I think that's the case. But, um, from at least my experience within Facebook and, and working with other product teams on trying to understand these generations and these new demographics, it's, I think it's always been about like, trying to create a product that resonates with people who have a different experience uh, than they've ever been able to understand before. So it's always come from that place, at least on the product side. I do know, obviously, like, um, uh, the way that that ends up manifesting, especially in recent years is,

• 9:40Speaker 02

  is crazy, right? It's so different from what, um, from what it was, you know, in, in the beginning. Um, I will say though, like, Facebook is on a house of cards. Um, the company is not as, you know, um, unstoppable as I think they once were and, or at least they once were perceived to be, right? Um, I, I actually don't think they've ever been, um, unstoppable. If anything, I think the approach that Facebook has always taken to these things. Has been one of a almost like terrified like of of, you know, failing, right?

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Constantly. And so every time that Facebook goes and looks at the landscape of social products, I I think they see a very competitive environment where a lot of different companies and apps out there like TikTok and and YouTube and so on are building features and they're building use cases that they don't have available on their on their product. And they're really taking away users from Facebook in many ways. So I think the challenge for Facebook has been and continues to be that they realize, I think, pretty clearly that one generation using their product does not mean that the next generation is going to come on

• 11:05Speaker 02

  and use the product as well. I think they realize that as people age, they kind of stick to the products that they use and they grow old with them, right? Um, and as that's been the case, and I think this is kind of the message I I gave at Facebook, was somewhat of an alarmist message. I was talking about how like my generation wasn't using Facebook. And if Facebook wanted to, you know, attract these users, they would have to understand them. There was always this belief within the company that my generation would hit a certain age and then would want to use the product. And I think I I think it was that realization that the next generation is not just going to go and use the product that their parents used.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Um, or that, you know, the those who are slightly older would use that led Facebook to starting to realize that every generation needs its own, I guess, team, in a sense. And so that's where the green light was for me to focus on building products for my generation.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now, I want to go back to the Wall Street Journal stories. Um, there's another story, Facebook knows Instagram is toxic for teen girls, company document show. Here's a quote from it. Um, thirty-two percent of girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them felt feel worse. Um, and they say, we make body issues worse for one in three teen girls. Um, uh, of course, like, you know, the first quote is the sample was already people that were feeling bad.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's gonna be a big number.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Um, it's actually kind of amazing that sixty-eight percent uh didn't feel worse.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  You know, when they're using Instagram. I wonder what Instagram they're using. But the one in three, you know, the fact that they they accentuate body issues for one in three teen girls uh is is alarming.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  And I want to put that side by side with what you just mentioned, which is that, you know, the company is not unstoppable. I think we both agree it's the most vulnerable of all tech giants.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  So when when we hold both of these thoughts in mind, the fact that Facebook does know that it has harmful effects, uh, you know, clearly its data shows that. And it must grow and it must attract younger users in order to fend off, um, you know, these competitors. Is there a view inside the company that it doesn't really have a choice? But to, you know, attract these younger demographics, even if there is some, I don't know, collateral damage?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Well, I actually think it's kind of the opposite i- in that regard. I think it's that the fact that Facebook is so vulnerable and is so easily can, like, people can just sign off and go use another app. Um, the fact that it's in that state and they understand it means that I think they're trying to do everything possible to understand why people are even leaving their platform. Like, why are, for example, the youngest of their users not as interested in Instagram as some of the older ones? Maybe starting to realize that there's tremendous pressure in the algorithm that currently exists on Instagram to make people feel like they're not good enough to post. This was something I was always trying to tackle since I, when I was there, was talking about how like,

• 14:14Speaker 02

  in order to make a product that resonates with people, you need to make sure that they're having a good time on it and that generally it is making their lives better. If that's not the case, like, they're gonna leave. Eventually they'll break. They're not gonna keep handling that, right? So I I think that's kind of the case. I think Facebook is kind of trying to figure out how it can not have those things happen in their platform. And and the challenge, I think, has always been like, how do you do that, right? Because? You see platforms that are broadcast platforms in general promoting content that people like. And if you have content that people like going up in the ranks, the more that someone likes content, the more it gets surfaced, the content that looks the best gets surfaced and you end up extrapolating that.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  And you can see how any type of popular feed with any type of likes will drive users to only seeing content that is the most liked. And as soon as you start doing that, you drive the quality bar up to the point where the average user feels like they need to hit a certain quality bar to even post content. So then you start seeing people posting less and so on.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Wedding pictures.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  And that's not good for Facebook. So Facebook obviously needs to fix that, right? And so I think it kind of works together that way where it's clear that, you know, so many people who go on these apps will see some of the most popular content and then feel disheartened to post their own thing because, you know, they can't compete or they can't compare. And, and I mean, I experienced that, right?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Same here. Okay. So it seems to me that Facebook views this research a little differently than the rest of the public does, which may lead us to the conclusion that they are having a very different experience with some of these critical stories than the rest of us. So I want to get inside Facebook's head and let's do that right after the break.

• 16:11Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 16:51Speaker 01

  Without scaling risk, Avpoint, the unifying trust layer for AI. Head to avpoint.com to see how enterprises deploy AI with confidence. Learn more at avpt.co/bigtechnologypodcast. That's avpt.co/bigtechnologypodcast. And we're back here on the Big Technology Podcast with Michael Sayman. He's the author of a brand new book, App Kid, out in stores now. And he spent a number of years inside Facebook as a very young product manager, trying to find out what would appeal to kids and then get the next batch of users on Facebook.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  So let's talk about the mindset of Facebook, which I teased right before the break. So the world is taking in these stories. And the perception is that Facebook harms teen girls and doesn't care about it at all. It seems to me that what your perspective is, the reason why they're doing this research is because it needs to know how it's making people feel. And if it's making them feel bad, it has to know how to fix that so it can retain them.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Is that right?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's my guess. I mean, that makes sense to me as to what I've seen since I was there from the beginning. I think every time I'd been at Facebook, it was always a question of, well, you know, if people don't enjoy the experience, they can leave. It's not like an ecosystem of, you know, the types of ecosystems that other tech companies have where they can kind of trap users against their will. The person at Facebook just simply leaves if they don't want to use it. So they have to worry about that 10 times worse.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Let me, yeah, let me ask you this then. How do you think they are? How do they perceive this type of criticism internally? Because, you know, hearing it from your perspective, you know, I bet there's a lot of angry Facebook people who are like, we're doing this research so we can eliminate this type of stuff. And the world is making it seem like we're, you know, we're proudly harming girls and don't care.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, I think within Facebook, it's always been the case that they That they've always felt like it's been hard to explain some of these things. I think Facebook has always had a, uh, an interesting relationship with the media, um, where.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Say more about that.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, you, you always, you always see how, um, there is one thing that happens and they try and build a product. And then it totally turns out the opposite way, uh, when the user ends up, uh, or sorry, when the, um, what do you call it? When the media ends up picking it up, right? And, and you end up with a, a totally different narrative from, from what's intended. I, I think also.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Right, like News Feed is the first example that the News Feed came out, everyone hated it.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Then eventually we got used to it.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  I think Facebook has always had, had that, uh, what do you call it? That dilemma with, with the media. I think also the challenge has always been because the product is inherently about social features that should resonate with people. Um, it's almost like Facebook is, is trying to understand people as its main primary goal compared to most other companies out there, most tech companies out there. I think people are complicated. And so I think generally Facebook is going to end up being wrong more than they are going to be right for most of those cases. And it's a matter of just continuously iterating. And I think they just are in a tough space. I, I think frankly, out of all the tech companies, they're, they're in the type of space that just is not as easy to

• 20:33Speaker 02

  get right. And when you get it wrong, there's some serious implications for what happens, right? So I think they have to be very cautious with what they end up launching and how they do that because of those implications.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  I want to ask you, there are people who are wondering whether there's going to be fundamental change inside Facebook after these general stories. We have a whistleblower that's testifying before Congress about this stuff. Do you, but, but again, you've just taken us inside the mindset of the company. And I, again, you know, imagine there's going to be a lot of defensive folks there who are like. Yes, we are trying to fix this.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Do you think that, um, how do you think they are gonna respond to this crisis? Do you think they just let it blow over and and stay the course?

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Um, no, definitely not.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Oh, and I guess like, and a corollary to that, I mean, Instagram isn't, uh, you know, brand new. It's been around for a while, yet it's still causing all these body issues. So like, you know, is there a part of that company that's just trading engagement and understanding that? It will do some collateral damage, uh, to girls' self-esteem.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the company is definitely going to change from things like this. I think every time something like this comes up within the company, there's, there's either massive talks within the company or trying to understand it more, or trying to reach out more, or trying to do more research or more understanding. I think that's definitely gonna be the case with something like this. I mean, it it's, it's clear that the company, to me, it's clear that the company is trying to fix these issues. But at the same time, it's like, how, how are you gonna go about it, right? How are you gonna go about doing that? So I I kind of see that kind of coming over time. I think it's also interesting, because like, when I had joined the company, I was seventeen and I spent my years there growing up at Facebook. It was very weird. Um, and I think that's kind of the strangest part about this for me, has been like, they kind of raised me in a way.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Like, I, like, in the weirdest way, my parents are like, like fifty product managers from Facebook, right? Like, like, they taught me how to drink wine. They taught me how to, you know, like, how to drive. I I learned so many things from people there that you don't learn at Facebook. It's like, what would it be like to go to college if you spend your entire life within a company like Facebook? And those are the people that you go hang out with. Um, so my perspective has always been one, um, that I've questioned too, right? Because it's like, wait, hold up, like. You know, they fed me and washed my clothes and provided rent for me when I was a kid.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  And that obviously shapes my perception.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Do you trust them? Uh, do you trust them to have uh positive effects with their products on other kids' lives? You know, having been raised by them.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  You you not you go firsthand what their parenting skills are.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think it's important to to remember always that a company is not a family. Right? It's a company at the end of the day, no matter how much it feels like a family.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  It's still a company. Um, and when it comes to, I think to your question, like a matter of trust, what I trust is kind of the incentives, right? Like, what are the incentives? What are they trying to get to? And if their incentive is truly to build a product that resonates with people and that they enjoy using and they have like a very fickle audience or whatever that could leave, then at the end of the day, they're gonna have to build something that resonates because if they don't, they're just gonna leave. So in in my view, the way I see it is whether or not like, you know, regardless of what intentions anyone within the company has, I think if you build a product that doesn't make people feel good, they're gonna leave. Eventually, they're gonna leave. And uh, I think we kind of see it.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  And I think I think it's clear when you see, you know, the com- the competition that Facebook's been having over the couple last couple of years and how things have changed dramatically for them in that landscape from even just a couple of years ago, that, you know, they they really they really are starting to take a look at that, right? You know, now more than ever. Um, and I think all I hope for honestly is that what they're able to uncover from understanding these things leads them to building a product that is generally more empathetic. I I think like,

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  I think that's a challenge that we're gonna have to see and I hope that the incentives are aligned like that. That's kind of how I think they are. But at the at at the end of the day, that's that's the challenge, right? It's like, what if you end up with a company where the incentives aren't lined up? Where does that lead the, you know, where does that lead the company? Where does that lead?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  The products that they build?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  But isn't that the case now? I mean, I hate to say it, but Facebook executives have compared their products to sugar. And sugar is something that, you know, will make you feel good momentarily, but it's bad for you in the long run.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  And

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  If, so I do wonder, I mean, I, I take your point that, um, that they want people to feel good about using their products. Um, but they've gone out and said it, you know, that, that there is a sugar comparison to it. And, you know, having that in mind, I know that growth and engagement are the North Star in that.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  That's how you were evaluated as a product manager.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Oh, and PMs, yeah, and PMs are their metrics. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the challenge. It's like you end up.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  We've talked about this here in the past.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, go, go, go, go. Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a certain level of like responsibility that needs to be had around like, what are the metrics that you're aiming for? Right? Like, what are the metrics that you're trying to, to go towards? Um, I still think

• 26:09Speaker 01

  But here, yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  That like the ultimate, the ultimate success and growth of a company that's a social company is one that provides users, you know, the value that makes them feel good and is not like sugar, but rather is something where they can learn and grow as a person and connect with people. But the problem is there are a lot of shortcuts along the way that one can take to kind of create some type of growth that maybe doesn't necessarily result in that outcome. And I think like, that's the thing to be careful about is when you know that there's this down the road ideal kind of product that actually provides people with really good value and connects them.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  But there is maybe, you know, let's say I'm just a new PM at a company and there's some type of metric and I really need to move the metric. I was never good at this because I would always try and talk about the, you know, like, why, why are we doing something? But I wasn't scored on why. Um, but yeah, it's like, it's one of those things. It's like, you look at those questions. It's easy to say there can be situations where people will want to take a shortcut to get a certain number of engagement. But, but I think at the end of the day, no matter what, those things end up showing themselves. Whether it's a year, six months, two years, they start to bubble up and they cause a domino effect on the network. That kind of kills it. Um, and, and that's kind of how I see it.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Right, so here's my question, and you know, feel free to, well, anyway, I'm just gonna ask it.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Go ahead.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  What's the true North Star there?

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Well.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Is it, is it this engagement, or is it, as you've, you know, talked about, because, okay, you could met, I think Facebook has a saying, data wins arguments. You can measure engagement, and engagement can make people feel bad.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  You can't necessarily measure, I mean, you can, but it's much more difficult to measure what are the tweaks that we made that made people feel good or bad. So what is the true North Star? Because this is sort of the key to this discussion here.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Is when it comes to, when it comes to serving younger users.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Is it about their wellbeing, or is it about growth?

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  I want to know from you, having been there, what is the true North Star? Because you can talk about building a good experience for people and retention all you want.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  But if you're getting, you know, gold, as you put it, and Brian Boland has in the past, on growth and engagement, doesn't factor in those broader societal things like we've talked about.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  That's the thing, is like, those broader societal things might not have one or two metrics that you can tie to and easily say, here's how it's affecting our growth, right? And so what happens is those societal effects that these products have kind of have like these underlying, like, recessive metrics that pop up over the years in the effects of what's happening in, in the dynamics of the social network. And so from there, you start to have to understand and get clues from the effects that it's having as to what are the origins of these things? What are the interface elements? What are the patterns? What are the rules set on the algorithm that are affecting the product that lead it to that direction?

• 29:17Speaker 02

  And so what, what I think is happening is, a lot of times, you'll just use a same, a simple metric, drive that metric up, and it'll do great. And then two years later, that metric starts to fall, and you're like, wait, why? We didn't change anything. But the reality is that there were decisions that were made two years prior that are affecting that metric, that just haven't shown themselves. And those are actually the things that deal with. The issues of how how does that product serve the well being of the person? Because those are ones that show over time and you can't grade off of like a three month period, right? So that's I think that's a challenge for them is yeah. How do you get that out there? How do you how do you quantify that?

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Um, and understand it better so that when you release a feature, you're not just looking at the immediate metric that comes out of it.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  And there are going to be people, and I actually think there's merit to what they're saying that, you know, we'll say it's going to be about culture at the end of the day. If you're a growth culture versus a well being culture, which seems clear, having spoken with you and others, that's what Facebook is. That's where you end up.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, and I think it's it's all over in terms of like different product managers and how people try to to lead product vision.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's amazing, Michael, the way the way that we started this discussion versus now getting into the nitty gritty, right? Which is that? Facebook might on a spiritual level know that it needs to make people feel good when using their products. Otherwise, people aren't going to come back. But on a physical level, you know, what it's doing is grading on the stuff that is causing the problems.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I I I I think I think there's a big distinction here between like the short term goals and the long term. I think in the long term, want people to have, you know, good well being and and be happy and healthy with the product you're using because it's like sugar. If your product is literally sugar, the person dies like you don't, you know, what are you going to sell a person who's not alive? You can't sell them anything, right? Like, that seems kind of messed up, right? Like, so you don't want somebody to just be addicted to your product because I I just think frankly, like, that just doesn't result in a in a good outcome. And so for me, it's like, yeah, it's it's the long term and and it's a harder problem, right? And I think a lot of people sometimes want to be lazy, right?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. And let me so let me ask again, when we talk about changes inside the company after the hearings that we're going to see, and we're going to, you know, get the Wall Street Journal's, you know, reaction inside. Do they change

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  the metrics upon which they evaluate people?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  I think they have to. If they don't change those things, like we were talking about, Facebook is not, is not unstoppable. I think they certainly have to, and I think it-

• 31:59Speaker 01

  I just wonder if they have the, the will to do it.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  And I think, well, I think Zuckerberg certainly does. I think Zuckerberg certainly does. Uh, I, I think-

• 32:07Speaker 01

  And then-

• 32:08Speaker 02

  If, if they understand how these things affect their product longer term, which I suspect that they're starting to, or at least they have for a while, then they will know that they have to change these metrics for the survival of their own social network. Like, if they don't change these things, the company can't, can't grow, can't survive. So, uh, the way I see it is, um, you know, I hope they do. Um, and I think they should, and I think there are plenty of people in the leadership who are starting to understand that, and I hope that, I hope that that's the case. Um, because at least I think it's just for the good of the people who are using their products as well as,

• 32:49Speaker 02

  and, you know, forget the growth of the company, just for the good of the people that are using the products, I think that that needs to change.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Michael, there's a moment that we're experiencing right now where the tech industry has become resistant to listening to journalists, uh, journalists in general. They've demonized, not the whole industry. I mean, obviously we have a listenership here. I think people listen because they know they're going to get a balanced perspective and will have people that are not only, you know, journalists, but people from industry like yourself to come on and discuss this stuff. Uh, but there is a segment of the tech, uh, world that isn't listening to reporters anymore and is demonizing them. And certainly, you know, we know that Facebook is responding differently to this crisis than previous ones. Cambridge Analytica, for instance, it sort of sat and was very apologetic. Now it's firing back.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  So do you think that some of that trend line in the tech industry to not listen to reporters is starting to make its way into Facebook? It seems like it is to me. And I'm curious, you know, they've seen this data internally before, so it's not new to them. And, you know, I wonder if this, the stories will make them change. You know, I mean, we've talked about it a bunch, but like, you know, is there gonna be a, I guess the question I'm asking is, is there gonna be a moment where Facebook says, screw these reporters, you don't care what they say, we're gonna just do us?

• 34:15Speaker 02

  I hope not. Oh, my God, no. Well.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Or at least be resisted because listen again, like what we're seeing.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that there's been a general push, I think, from some people in the tech industry over the past few years that just generally they're just trying to ignore the whole, you know, the entire journalistic community, the entire press, like just all of it and saying like, who cares? I think that's kind of messed up, to be honest, like, like, in many ways, I think journalism and like the press is kind of speaking for or giving perspective and challenging a lot of the questions and the product ideas that are being born in the tech industry. Without that, I don't, I don't think you have, you know, a product that generally listens to people. So I, I think that's dangerous in general. I also think that Facebook's approach to the media and,

• 35:04Speaker 02

  you know, is a separate, entirely separate thing from like how they end up making decisions on their products and, and how they end up, you know, kind of like, working within the company on these issues. I think Facebook's approach to the media in general has shifted countless times. I think we've seen it since they started. And every time that they have a new approach or different thing, yeah, you always see like a totally different angle to the whole story. I think we, we've seen even, you know, the press angle, the PR team at, at Facebook, try with Zuckerberg to have him do different types of things over the years. Some of them are super awkward. And, and you can tell that like as a company, they're trying to figure out how to do that.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  And, you know, I'm not gonna lie, I don't think they, they're the.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  They're the uh, they're the north star of how you handle the, the media or how you, how you speak to journalists. Uh frankly, I think they've done a, they've done a lot of learning over the years with that. Um, and so I hope that they can come to understand how to do this, but I, I see it that way. I see it as like the company just continuously, the company is just continuously trying to learn how to, how to speak to the media, how to speak to the press.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Right, but it's more than just communicating with the press though. Here's a New York Times article from uh Ryan McEachran, two former colleagues of mine, two former guests of the show on September twenty first, twenty twenty one, no more apologies inside Facebook's push to defend its image. And essentially what it is, again, I'd sort of touched on this earlier, but um it's a very different approach where instead of saying, we're sorry, we'll take a broader, you know, view of our responsibilities, which was their line uh for a while, like the communications line is no, you're wrong. You know, and I wonder how, whether that gets back to employees and, you know, if you're in the company, how that, how that, you know, impacts your willingness to, to take into consideration what the Journal and the Times and others are saying.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think it's, I think they're trying a different approach for once. I, I think, um, I think, for example, in this particular case, I, I believe them when they say that they think, they think that they're being misinterpreted. I, I understand that they are, they are trying at least now to explain how they feel about this situation. I think there have been times where they've been asked questions about decisions that they make and they immediately go and say, I'm, I'm so sorry, you know, like, uh, and let me, you know, let me just um apologize for everything that we, you know, and it's like, and it, and it's like, no, like they, they've made decisions where they've decided to do things for certain reasons. And it's like, are you, are you going to just immediately apologize for what you've done?

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Are you going to try and explain what you've done? So I, the way I see it is they're trying to approach here. They're trying to like, I think they're trying to find a way to, um, I don't know, uh, to explain how they're doing what they're doing. Um, and frankly, like, I don't know how it's gonna turn out. I don't know if this is the approach that they should be taking or not. But it certainly is clear to me that it seems like Facebook thinks that this is the right approach with this case. And if you ask me how I think they're doing in terms of why they're deciding to do these things, that's kind of what we talked about, right? Is, is I think that that's kind of where they came from.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Instagram for kids. What the hell is going on there?

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Well, you see, you see, it's, it's funny because to me, I, you know, when I hear Instagram kids, I think a totally different thing than what I think most people think when they hear Instagram kids. I think most times, and I think that's kind of the issue of, Facebook's never really been good at branding, right? So let's be clear with that. Facebook hasn't really been good at branding pretty much most things, um.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Well, you know, as a former student of advertising, the brand is often a reflection of the soul of the company.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, I, I, I would hope not. And I will tell you from my experience, it doesn't seem that way. I think the company is very divided in that regard. Um, but I would say that-

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Say more about that before you go on to divide it in what regard?

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I, I think, I think that it's very clear from the, the way that they brand their products, that a lot of times, some of the people making those decisions have no idea how to do that, right? Like, they're not translating the intentionality behind the products. I think like, a lot of companies do have those things very tied together. Um, but if you, if you look at the way that, that Facebook's structured and how they make their decisions around how they market or pitch their products to the journalists and the world versus the teams who are focused on trying to figure out how to build these products, there's very clearly a very different set of people doing these things. Um, that have a very different set of, of ideas around it.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Okay, let's, let's get back to Instagram for kids. What's, what's going on there?

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, um, uh, the way I see it is-

• 39:58Speaker 02

  I think the issue with Instagram Kids is that they're that they even that the name is even Instagram Kids. Just to be fair, I I I think uh yeah, we um we had a chat, I think, on on Twitter Spaces with Sarah Fryer and um a few others. Um, I think it was a few months ago when there were first rumors about there being an Instagram Kids product. And a lot of the discussion was around like, you know, will kids have, you know, uh, an ability to post content and to have likes and their graph and and and questions around how to port it. You know, how would they port Instagram into that type of environment? And I frankly just don't see the market opportunity with that. I I just don't see it.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  I think younger kids don't have an interest in um in a lot of the things that those older kids do in terms of social peer pressure. You get to certain ages like six, seven, eight years old. And I don't think you're talking about like, you know, posting a selfie that you're at the beach. I I just don't see a six year old wanting to do that. Uh, what what I do see, though, is opportunity in the entertainment industry. Um, when you look at YouTube Kids, which was a success within the company. Um, and when I was at YouTube, I I remember um kind of the the rollout of this this product, right? Um, YouTube Kids, for example, resonates because it's not a social network. It's a product that primarily focuses on engaging users through entertaining content

• 41:26Speaker 02

  or relevant shows targeted and meant for educational purposes many times for kids. Um, in a similar way, I think you start seeing other networks like the Disney Channel or um Nickelodeon um and how they target kids with entertainment. These are content creation platforms that distribute their services. But at the same time, uh, the content creators are limited and there's not a lot of content production happening from the six year old, right? And so I think you look at that and then you look at, for example, me at Roblox right now. Um, a product that is used by kids all over. And you can understand that like, um, there is a growing trend towards um.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Kind of migrating that entertainment of cable news and I'm sorry, not cable news, but like cable TV that kids have been watching since the nineties um and porting that over to a digital format. Where you can you can kind of engage with kids of that age. The challenge, I think, though, is, yeah.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it seems like a yeah, like a product akin to YouTube where it's a consumption versus posting.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And I, you know, and I talked about that before, and I think that's kind of where where that's headed. I I think, you know.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  So it's pause, pause now. Is it, is it, your view is that this is gonna come out eventually? There's no stopping.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Well, I I don't think it's gonna be Instagram Kids. That's frankly it. I just don't think it's gonna. And I don't think they should call it that. And I don't think that that's the case. I definitely do think that Facebook eventually is going to launch a um, what do you call it? An entertainment platform that allows kids to consume content, of course. Um, yeah, certainly. Um, I I think, you know, you see TikTok and there it is.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. What does it need the kids? I mean, you know, there was this, again, going back to this story about um about the the tweens, right? They they're doing these slides, talking or this, these reports, talking about Messenger Kids and Playdates. I mean, the whole, the TLDR at the bottom of this document is absolutely hilarious. Uh, well, it would be if it wasn't as sad as it is. Most kids, sixty-eight percent, sixty-five, ninety-five. I don't know what that means. Sixty-eight percent seems something I understand. Or I guess that's standard deviations. Do not use Messenger Kids during Playdates.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Mainly because parents view the app as a way for kids to communicate with others when they're not together.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  What type of company puts a report together talking about whether kids are using their app to communicate during Playdates? I mean, they're they're in person.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I think the question is like, for example, when a kid is playing Fortnite with their friend, like, how are they talking to each other? And then the realization that a lot of the younger kids are actually next to each other. And then the question's like, well, is there any product there for them to be able to communicate without having to talk physically while they're doing that? And so I think that's kind of where that comes from.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's, isn't it a little weird to you, though, communicating while they're next to each other? I mean, they're next to each other.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Facebook, it's the one place Facebook should not want it to.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Actually, I mean, that's, that's actually a good question. I I don't think, um, I don't think that we are. I I think it's important to understand the context that a lot of our generation grows up in. I I remember when I was growing up and my dad had, you know, iMessage with me. Um, a lot of times we couldn't talk in person because, you know, family drama um that you can read in the book about. Um, but a lot of times we ended up actually being able to communicate better through the GIFs that we'd send each other and like the emoji reactions. And it was weird because it was a lot of this like type of communication that you wouldn't find in your life.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Frankly, the way I see it is there is definitely potential for helping people communicate when they're next to each other through different types of online tools. Um, to say that everyone wants to communicate in person when they're right next to each other, I think is a uh, an assumption I I would not, I would not make.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  This is why I love having technologists on the show.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  But why, well, I guess again, like I'm gonna go back to it.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  You know, five, six-year-olds, do they really need to be using the Facebook product? I mean, what's going on there?

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, to be fair, if they're not using the Facebook product, they're gonna use any other product, right? Like, any kid who's on their iPad playing a game is gonna try and talk to another kid while they're playing it. And the question is, what tool are they gonna use? Frankly, part of the reason why Messenger Kids doesn't even have that much usage is because of how many safety regulations and tools that the parents have to be involved in are used. We actually see a lot of these kids start going off and using tools that are completely unregulated. I personally did that when I was a kid, which I'm glad, you know, there are tools that exist that don't allow kids to do that if their parents do have it. But that's frankly, I think, a challenge. And I don't know, I think a lot of times when it comes to Facebook, some of this stuff, it's like, it's pretty clear to me. Like, it it's not, it's not too challenging, right?

• 46:18Speaker 02

  There are some things I think it's important to look at and say, well, hold up, like, you know, let's, you know, let's not just go metric crazy, right? But uh, when it comes to this in particular, I I don't, I don't know. I it's just a, it's a tool to use to message while you're playing a game, right?

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yep. All right, let's take one more break and come back here and talk a little bit about your interactions with Mark Zuckerberg in particular, and then maybe some of the other key players in this story. So we'll be back right after this on the Big Technology Podcast with Michael Samson.

• 46:49Speaker 03

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• 47:20Speaker 01

  And we're back here for one final segment on the Big Technology Podcast. Michael Samson is the author of the new book, App Kid. If you're enjoying this conversation, I would recommend going out and getting it. If you're not enjoying this conversation, we're 45 minutes in, so put on some music and take a walk. Michael, let's talk a little bit about your interactions with Mark Zuckerberg. How curious was Mark to learn about how kids interact with their phones and social apps? And did you feel like it was coming from like a good place, or some people might say, you know, it was coming from an evil place where Mark must hook the next generation of kids while they're on playdates?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's the whole cycle these days. It's, you know, the evil mastermind, you know, this whole deal. And like, I'm not gonna lie, I was super intimidated to meet him when I first started working there, because I indeed was a kid. But, you know, surprisingly, surprisingly, the guy is just more awkward than anything else. I'm not gonna lie. And, you know, and you look at the first thing that people ask me is like, oh, my gosh, I watched this movie, you know, The Social Network. Does he really like that? Like, what is he? How is it different? I'm like, he's definitely not as dramatic. Like, that's certainly true, right? And, you know, in working with him, I actually found it was fascinating, because,

• 48:44Speaker 02

  you know, I've worked at other companies, other tech companies, too. And there's one thing that was always different to me about Facebook than every other one, which was... The CEO of Facebook actually tried to understand the people that were using the product. And and and this is where I think it's it's kind of frustrating to see how, you know, the various steps within the company will lead to a total loss in translation of what Zuckerberg does. Because it's, you know, it's it's it's kind of unfortunate that that's the case in my view. But I genuinely think from, at least from what I've seen, and again, take it with a grain of salt, because I I practically grew up there, right?

• 49:27Speaker 02

  They hired me and they fed me and they washed my clothes and they did all my things. Right, so like, my perspective is one of like this excited teenager who who drained the company, you know, whatever. Um, but in my interactions with him, he genuinely wanted to understand how I used Snapchat. Um, for example, um, and how me and my friends used it. Um, and, you know, we would, we would talk about doing that all the time, like, how did it work? And personally, I loved trying to explain how my demographic used products. And I would do these talks within the company, um, that I just decided to set up myself. I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna do a talk at the company to explain myself. You know, the the misunderstood teenager that just wants to be understood, right?

• 50:10Speaker 01

  I like, you told me once that, um, you know, you went to orientation and they're like, everybody's ideas are appreciated here. And you said, okay, I buy into that and started like putting together pitch decks.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Literally, literally, I think that's the craziest thing was like, people go to these companies and you think, oh, you know, the Kool-Aid, oh, the posters, the company is just trying to appeal, whatever. And, you know, my, uh, uh, I, you know, I don't know if you call it me being naive or what. I I looked at the posters and I saw, um, I saw them saying you can do whatever you want. You know, you can, you can be whoever you want, um, and you can pitch whatever you want and we will listen to you. And so I thought, well, okay, so I just started, you know, so I just decided I'm gonna do a talk. And so I started doing talks within the company, inviting other people, writing notes, doing these things, trying to just explain my perspective and being like, you know, you know, like every other teenager, like, you don't understand me, mom. Like that, basically me with the company, right?

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Um, and it and it was fascinating, I, you know, thousands of people tuning into to the talks that I would do within the company, talking about how how I use Snapchat and and how, you know, how these products were different from Facebook and Instagram.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  And, yeah, you push them towards stories, right?

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I I think the biggest thing for me was I I felt like when I was gonna join Facebook, I felt like I was gonna enter this company in a state of panic. I thought I was gonna enter this company and they were all gonna be panicking about what to do because nobody in my generation was using Facebook and Instagram. We were posting like once a month. Um, and I remember uh walking in there and actually seeing everyone totally relaxed. And saying, oh, well, we have so many more users in Snapchat, like nothing's ever gonna, you know, affect us, like we're unstoppable. And I was like, what, what is this culture like? That doesn't make any sense. Um, you know, and so I started doing the talks in part because of that. I wanted to change that.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  I thought it was, you know, I thought it was ridiculous that the company would feel um like there was no threat coming. And and as I started explaining and all of that, I remember I unfriended every single one of my coworkers on Facebook. And I refreshed my newsfeed and it was empty. I'd actually reached the end of newsfeed at that point in time. And I took a screenshot of it. I had five ads and it was the end of the newsfeed. It said, sorry, there's no more posts to show right now. And I took a screenshot of all this and I posted it within the company and said, hey, look, this is my newsfeed right now. I have nothing. I've unfriended all of you. The only people that I have left on my Facebook are only people my age. And the newsfeed was empty uh when I only had people my age on it.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  And and I think that really was the beginning for me to realize that I could actually make some change within the company. I could actually impact it. And so I just started from there and I I went on and I started showing Instagram. I took screenshots. I asked my friends to take screenshots of their phones' home screens um and if they could send them to me. So I could show at what position on the home screen is Facebook and Instagram versus Snapchat. And in every single phone, Snapchat at the front, Instagram in some folder and Facebook deleted. All right, and and you know, and so I think I think it was it was kind of me going through that process that as I started to to do this, you know, Chris Cox. Zuckerberg, um, you know, KX and a few of the others within the company started to take note of the work that I was doing.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  And that's my, a little bit of my concern is like, I do think they're now paranoid. Yeah, and they do really see the competition. And I wonder if that pushes them in the name of sustaining the company to end up taking decisions that compromise the integrity of, um, you know, I don't know, the experience or the.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  I, I think, I frankly, I frankly think.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Maybe I'm wrong.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  I frankly think it's the opposite. I think, I do think it's true that they do feel that pressure now more than ever. But I think it's, it, you know, they see it because other products frankly are just more lightweight. You know, I, I think you look at TikTok's feed, it's lightweight. Do I feel like shit on TikTok? I don't feel like shit on TikTok, you know? So, I, you know, I think like, you, you look at that and I think they understand it too. I think they see it. I, I think most people, that's kind of where you see the growth happening in other, in other platforms.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Right. Um, talk a little bit about how like you would correct Zuckerberg on his Snapchat usage.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Well, you know, for example, when, um, when, when Facebook was launching, um, stories, I, I remember, uh, sometimes he would, um, he would make some posts and I was like trying to like, I don't know, I took it upon myself to try and like, educate him a little bit on how, um, to do the types of posts that were the right posts or not the right posts. And it was fun. I, I think honestly it was always fun. He was, uh, he, he would, you know, respond with his reasoning for how he would do a post. I'd be like, hey, like, maybe mute that post. Like, if you're not gonna say anything in it, like, you just have audio in it. It's weird. Like, it just looks a little awkward. And he'd be like, how so? You know?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I, I do think that's one of the really interesting things about Zuckerberg is that he, he is definitely like willing to learn.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, like what other, you know, what other CEO out there is gonna grab a random person who just.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  An eighteen year old.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Right? And, yeah, just an eighteen year old and be like, can you teach me how to use what you use? Like, I, that's fascinating. Like, you, you, you can't have a company like the one that you have with Facebook without a CEO that has that kind of mindset.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wrote about this a little bit in Always Day One and um I I don't know if we've spoken, I'm sure we have.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  I did go up to, you know, I got a chance to spend some time with Zuckerberg for the book. And uh I was like, alright, Mark, uh what happened with you with Michael Samson? And you know, he uh he confirmed everything you said, so um. That was interesting. He's like, yeah, he like, he showed me the ropes on Snapchat, which was interesting. And then there is a uh this funny moment in the book where I was like, you know, well, does that mean you're a Snapchat user? He's like, well, I use everything. I use Instagram. I was like, but Mark, Snapchat. He goes, yeah, I use Snapchat. He goes, I use everything that um we compete with. And he said that um when Facebook was thinking about building Facebook Dating, he downloaded the dating app.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  One day, he uh he's he sort of, I guess he got excited about the UI of one of these dating apps and you know, it's like presenting a single match a day and saying, do you like this person, do you not? And first of all, I was like, Mark, are you you for using your own photo for this? He goes, yes. It's like, uh, that would have been a great story, but anyway. And he goes, alright, it's like this app. So one day he brings it to Priscilla and he goes, check out this app. And Priscilla looks at the person they suggested to to Mark and she goes, I'm meeting that woman for dinner tomorrow. So, anyway, I don't know whether Mark was.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  No, no, I mean, that's I that's that's how he is. That's how he is.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Typical Zuckerberg.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  That's how he is. And and frankly, you know, that's that's the type of thing where it's like, I think that that quirkiness or or whatever you wanna call it, it's it's funny. It's funny and I I I had a lot of a lot of fun. I I remember I would use my hoverboard uh around the the campus and the office. It was a open floor plan, right? So I thought, okay, I can bring a hoverboard and and wheel around. I remember falling on my face um and you know, it was it was pretty bad and right in front of Zuckerberg's um uh what do you call it? Glass fishbowl, right?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  I remember them looking around like seeing what had happened because they heard someone fall. I I got right back up and I'm like, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna pretend nothing happened. I'm just gonna walk away. Um and and obviously, like, security was telling me, like, don't use your hoverboard, but I I did it anyway. I I did it.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  I I did my own thing.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Well, well, Michael, I appreciate you coming by and sharing all these perspectives. You know, both stories from your book, stories we've talked about in the past, and then, of course, how Facebook's gonna weather this moment. So folks, you heard it here first. Instagram Kids isn't really dead. It just might transform and find some other way to to make its make its way to to life. The book is App Kid. It's available in stores. Now, I suggest you pick it up. Michael's a good guy. It's always fun talking with you, Michael.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Thanks so much. It was a lot of fun talking today.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Always fun. Thank you, Nick Guatney, for mastering the audio. Thank you, Red Circle, for hosting the podcast and selling the ads. And thanks to all of you, the listeners. Appreciate you having here. Appreciate having you here. Every week, we do these every Wednesday. So I invite you, if this is your first time, to subscribe. If you're a repeat listener and feel the urge, rating goes a long way. So open that app up and tap some stars and we'd appreciate that. Unless you have negative feedback, then just email it to me and we'll talk. [email protected]. Well, that will do it for us here this week. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next week with another Big Technology Podcast. Until then, take care.

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