The Unabomber Pt. 2

In this gripping conclusion to our deep dive on Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, Vanessa and Dr. Engels trace his escalation from calculated bombings to deadly domestic terrorism that left three people dead and a nation in fear. As panic spreads and authorities scramble for answers, a bold and unprecedented move forces the entire country to confront the mind behind the violence. But the breakthrough doesn’t come from advanced forensics or surveillance — it comes from someone who knows him better than anyone else. Explore the psychology, ideology, and investigation behind one of the most notorious domestic terrorists in American history. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  All of us are shaped by our beliefs. When we know what we stand for, it can anchor us, making us braver, stronger, and giving us purpose. But sometimes, belief stops being grounding and starts becoming isolating. And when that happens, confidence can turn into something else entirely. It can spiral into dangerous delusion. For Ted Kaczynski, his extreme resolve caused him to withdraw from the world entirely and to believe he was above the rules everyone else lived by. For decades, Ted operated in the shadows, confident in his ability to outsmart the system. Until one day, one

• 1:25Vanessa Richardson?

  of the few people who truly knew him recognized the voice behind the chaos. And Ted's reign of violence came to a shocking end.

• 1:49Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes, it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 2:05Tristin Engels?

  And I'm Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 2:13Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. Before we get started, be advised, this episode contains descriptions of violence. Please listen with care. Today, we conclude our deep dive on Ted Kaczynski, the math genius turned domestic terrorist who sent homemade explosives across the United States. In the process, Ted killed three people and injured many more, earning himself the infamous title, "The Unabomber."

• 2:55Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some violent criminals shift their MO with ease, the psychological mechanisms behind growing public panic, and the potential effects that psychological torture can have on an offender's inner workings.

• 3:13Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, "What makes a killer?"

• 3:23Vanessa Richardson?

  By the late 1970s, 36-year-old Ted Kaczynski was living alone in a remote cabin in Lincoln, Montana. He'd become increasingly isolated and fully convinced that modern technology and powerful institutions were destroying human freedom. After years of reflection, Ted had decided words were not enough. In 1978, and again in 1979, he delivered homemade bombs to the campus of Northwestern University, injuring the people who opened them. To Ted, the attacks weren't personal. They were a symbolic warning to the systems he rebelled against. However, the public didn't react the way he hoped.

• 4:05Vanessa Richardson?

  No one picked up on his message, and the world carried on, business as usual. So in November of 1979, Ted was ready to up the ante. He needed to find a way to stop the industrial world in its tracks through utter devastation. This time, instead of going after a university, he'd target a commercial airline. To him, airlines represented technological dependence and blind public trust. They were complex systems that functioned only because people believed they were safe, and it was up to him to break that trust.

• 4:42Tristin Engels?

  So clearly, there's an escalation in both thinking and planning. Like you said, his initial message wasn't received. The world carried on as if nothing happened. So in his mind, that likely meant he needed to send a message that couldn't be ignored. Targeting a larger system would force attention. Psychologically, that suggests that his dehumanization was worsening, and we talked about that in episode one. People were no longer individuals. They became symbols of the problem that he believes he's fighting against. It also reflects continued moral justification of his actions. And I also think it signals desperation. He's rigid in his thinking, and that rigidity intensified the more isolated he became. When there's no reaction and no validation,

• 5:27Tristin Engels?

  someone like him is more likely to double down and go bigger rather than reconsider their actions.

• 5:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, Ted's plan was to plant a bomb inside an aircraft so that it would detonate midair. Since he was working alone, he just had to figure out how to get a bomb onto a plane. It didn't matter which plane the bomb was on, so long as there were passengers on board. So Ted built an altitude-sensitive explosive and shipped it in the mail as low-priority cargo. That way, it would travel by air. And on November 15, 1979, American Airlines Flight 444 departed Chicago for Washington DC carrying the device. During the flight, smoke suddenly poured into the cabin from the cargo hold. Panic spread among the passengers as it filled the plane.

• 6:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Despite the chaos, the pilots reacted quickly and safely landed the aircraft in DC. Fortunately, no one died, although several passengers required treatment for smoke inhalation.

• 6:31Vanessa Richardson?

  When the story made it on the news, Ted followed every report closely. Even though he was disappointed that things didn't turn out as catastrophically as he'd hoped, he was happy to see that the public reaction was louder than ever. The bombing was recognized as a threat to public safety, and federal authorities started investigating. Ted eagerly awaited the halt to airline activity, but he was sorely disappointed because the system quickly adapted to the heightened threat and flights resumed as usual. On top of that, investigators didn't have any useful clues, which meant that yet again, no one understood Ted's message. He'd thought that harming a group of people would cause greater panic, but he was wrong.

• 7:16Vanessa Richardson?

  So now Ted reshifted his focus back to an individual target. However, instead of going after another university professor, he opted for someone more powerful and in the public eye. Several months later, in June of 1980, he chose his mark: Percy Wood, the president of United Airlines. Ted was determined to highlight the blind public trust that he believed was essential to airline operations, and to carry out a siege on those who benefited most from their control over the masses. Percy was the perfect target. He figured out Percy's home address, and that month, he mailed a bomb to his house.

• 7:59Tristin Engels?

  This is part of what makes Ted so dangerous. It's not just that he's intelligent. It's that his intelligence makes him resourceful and methodical. He was able to locate the home address of the president of United Airlines in 1980, long before the internet was publicly available. That likely required using public directories, libraries, or corporate records. And back then, it wasn't unusual for executives' home addresses to be listed, or anyone's home address to be listed publicly, but it still required intentional research. That level of planning matters because it shows how desperate he is to have his message received and for the public to panic. But the more significant shift is the decision to bring violence into someone's home because

• 8:44Tristin Engels?

  a home is private. It's where people are most vulnerable. Mailing a bomb there, knowing family members could be endangered as well, shows how far his moral justification had gone. As we discussed, he's no longer seeing individuals as individuals. They're symbols of a system that he believes is corrupt. But it also suggests strategy. He wants this message to be connected to the airplane attempt because it sends a broader message that not only are planes vulnerable, but so are the people running them. That's about fear and control. He's trying to destabilize trust in the institution by attacking both its operations and its leadership. And psychologically, that reflects escalation and an increasing sense of justification.

• 9:29Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think it's possible that Ted was maybe attempting to find new ways to feel like he was powerful? And if so, what might that need have stemmed from?

• 9:39Tristin Engels?

  Yes, but I think it's more about agency than power. Because if you look at Ted's developmental pattern, which we discussed in episode one, there are repeated experiences where control was external. He was accelerated academically. He entered STEM tracks early. He chose to participate in the Harvard study, but he didn't control the methods. And there wasn't informed consent, as we understand it today. So how much agency did he truly have there? Then there was the Vietnam draft. So in his experience, institutions were consistently setting the rules for him. Even his intellectual identity was constantly evaluated by systems he was in, but more acutely than the average student.

• 10:23Tristin Engels?

  So that's why living off the grid was so attractive to him. It offered full self-reliance and it restored a sense of control. So with that in mind, I feel that his acts of violence are more likely than not distorted demonstrations of that need for agency. I don't think their power for- Like admiration or dominance, but power intended to force attention and to influence outcomes. So in his mind, it may have been about reclaiming control in a world that he believed was becoming increasingly dependent or restrictive. I don't think he saw himself as trying to dominate others, but in a twisted way, I think he genuinely thought that he was acting in service of others and service for the

• 11:08Tristin Engels?

  world. That doesn't make his interpretation accurate, and it certainly doesn't excuse or justify his actions in the way he's trying to, but it helps explain at least why he continued to escalate his actions and how he was justifying them in his own mind.

• 11:26Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted believed he was about to bring the system crumbling down, but that didn't happen. When the package arrived at Percy's house, he opened it and it blew up. His injuries were so bad he needed surgery, but he survived. Ted followed the news and was infuriated to learn that United Airlines was mostly unaffected by the incident. Flights kept on as usual. For Ted, the message was unmistakable. He hadn't gone far enough. Targeting an executive at the top of a powerful airline still hadn't forced the reckoning he wanted. At that point, he made a dark realization. He'd continue to be ignored unless somebody died.

• 12:09Vanessa Richardson?

  With that, he sharpened his focus and turned his attention to computers. To Ted, computers represented the next phase of technological control. They weren't just simple machines that made life easier. They were systems that monitored, automated, and quietly replaced human independence. Plus, computers were no longer confined to research labs. They were moving into offices, storefronts, and homes. In Ted's mind, the wider availability of computers marked a tipping point, and he wanted to put a stop to it. So from the comfort of his cabin, Ted experimented more with his explosives, trying to figure out how to ensure they were lethal.

• 12:53Vanessa Richardson?

  Over the next few years, he sent out five more bombs. Two of them were defused, and three managed to cause some significant injuries. Thankfully, all of his targets survived. But Ted wasn't done trying, and on December 11th, 1985, he had his breakthrough. Ted mailed a bomb to a computer store in Sacramento, California. The store specialized in installing new computer systems in homes and businesses, which Ted felt represented the insidious spread of technology. The owner of the store, 38-year-old Hugh Scrutton, received the package and carried it outside with him when he left for the day. He opened it in the parking lot outside the store.

• 13:38Vanessa Richardson?

  The bomb detonated and killed Hugh instantly. This time, there was no ambiguity, no framing the event as a malfunction or a fluke. Ted had just moved from injuring people to killing them in what had been a cold and carefully calculated decision.

• 13:56Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, this is definitely a shift, one that really follows the same pattern that we've been talking about with regard to his escalation, the messaging, dehumanization, and moral justification. But it's also different because Hugh wasn't a high-level executive or policymaker. He was a small business owner installing computer systems. That suggests that Ted's target had expanded from decision-makers to participants. He wasn't just seeking to influence leadership, but to create fear in people who are helping expand this on a small scale. And of course, an argument can be made that he already did that with the airplane attempt, but the passengers of that plane were collateral damage. They weren't the primary target.

• 14:40Tristin Engels?

  The primary symbolic target of that was still the system of commercial aviation and technology. Here... It appears to be the business owner that's the primary target. I think now Ted is expanding his framework to include anyone who is complicit in engaging with or spreading technology because he wants to stop the spread.

• 15:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think Ted's comfortable becoming a killer?

• 15:07Tristin Engels?

  Ted's entire ideology and mission is to prevent technology from destroying society and with that, destroying humankind. So if he was to be comfortable doing the very thing he was trying to prevent, and in a violent way no less, that would be very hypocritical. But that said, it doesn't appear that Ted is experiencing any guilt, shame, or fear, because those emotions are being filtered through moral justifications and rigid ideology. To him, he's executing a strategy or method of his own, which is what he's been taught to do his entire life through academics. It's what he knows. And so that reduces emotional discomfort for him. So I don't think that he's comfortable in the sense that he enjoys it necessarily

• 15:53Tristin Engels?

  or that he feels nothing. I think that what he does feel is diminished. And unfortunately, it's been replaced with purpose and mission.

• 16:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, Hugh's death didn't convey Ted's full message, but it did achieve one thing. It showed authorities that the attacks weren't random and they weren't going to stop. As investigators analyzed the bomb, they realized how much time and expertise would have been required to build it. Not only that, but there were zero clues like fingerprints or fibers left behind. Now they knew this was a planned attack and someone diabolical was behind it. The FBI was quickly looped in and federal investigators started looking back through similar incidents like the United Airlines bombings and the ones at Northwestern. They revisited the evidence from those cases. And though there wasn't much to go on, they made a startling discovery.

• 16:48Vanessa Richardson?

  Not only had each bomb been made from the same material, but they'd become more advanced with each attack. The investigators' biggest fears seemed to be confirmed. One person was likely behind all of these crimes, and they were evolving.

• 17:05Vanessa Richardson?

  The problem was that they knew nothing about who was doing this. They had no idea where the person might live or what motivated them. All they knew was that the attacks had primarily focused on universities and airlines. So the FBI nicknamed their case Unabom, short for university and airline bomber. And when the media picked up the story, they dubbed the unknown suspect, the Unabomber. It was a name that would go down in infamy. But the suspect would have to be caught first. And for now, only one thing was certain. The violence was only just beginning.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Did you know penicillin, the drug that has saved more lives than any other in history, was discovered because a scientist forgot to clean a Petri dish before going on vacation? I'm Connor Tomlinson, and history is my thing, has been my whole life.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact, the history lesson you actually wished you had in high school, with everything they cut for being too interesting, put back in.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Every week, we take the wildest true things that ever happened and tell you the whole story behind them.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  I bring the history.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  I bring the facts, the tangents, and the occasional British accent.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  The wildest stuff is real.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  And the real stuff is wilder than you think. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 18:45Speaker 04

  The government gets a bad reputation, but did you know that the roads under your feet, the forecast on your phone, the letter in your mailbox, that's all government, too? I'm Professor Lindsay Cormack, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Government That Doesn't Suck, alongside Professor Greg Jackson, who you may know from the hit podcast, History That Doesn't Suck. Each episode, we dig into the surprising story of an American institution, from the origins of the internet, to the National Park Service, to the GI Bill, and so much more. You'll hear the stories behind them, plus a conversation with an expert who knows it inside and out. This is the real history of how we built the country under your feet, and you'll never look at any of it the same way again.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  Listen to and follow Government That Doesn't Suck, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 19:37Vanessa Richardson?

  By the mid-1980s, Ted Kaczynski had carried out at least 11 bombing attacks over the last several years, including two people at Northwestern University, the president of United Airlines, an entire commercial flight, and the owner of a computer store, which resulted in the man's death. The most recent attack had finally led to the FBI's involvement, and now, federal investigators were looking for a suspect dubbed "The Unabomber." They had no idea the man they were looking for was Ted Kaczynski. When the news of the investigation made headlines, Ted was galvanized. His anarchy was finally getting the attention he felt it deserved.

• 20:19Vanessa Richardson?

  As he relished in the weight of his one-man movement, he realized he needed a single, definitive statement on his beliefs. So he started compiling his writings and adding to them. It was his manifesto, and it would lay out all the evils of the world as he saw them. At the same time, Ted kept refining his homemade explosives, and he was eager to use the next one. In February of 1987, just over a year since his last attack, 44-year-old Ted boarded a bus from Montana to Salt Lake City, Utah, carrying a bomb. He'd chosen his next target carefully: another computer store, owned by a young man named

• 21:03Vanessa Richardson?

  Gary Wright. When he arrived at the store, Ted quietly snuck around to the parking lot at the back of the building. Once he was sure no one was watching, he placed the bomb on the ground and disguised it as a piece of scrap wood. He stuck nails in the wood so that when someone found it, they'd see it as a safety hazard and move it out of the way, and set it off. Once he was done, Ted walked away, leaving no trace of himself.

• 21:32Tristin Engels?

  This is another shift. He's only mailed his explosive devices in the past. This time, he hand-delivered it. He even transported it himself across state lines on public transportation. He's entering the environment, observing the setting, and making sure it will be discovered the way he intends. That reflects heightened control needs, which makes sense, given the past attempts and his perception of their failures. It also shows a slightly reduced aversion to risk, his growing confidence, and increasing urgency or desperation. We often see this happen when ideologies intensify, but also, this reinforces agency. When he relies on a system like the mail or the airlines,

• 22:15Tristin Engels?

  there are variables he can't control, like timing, or the handling, delivery. If it fails to produce the impact he wants, that can feel like another example of institutional incompetence. But when he delivers it himself, he removes those variables. He controls everything, and that restores agency. Instead of waiting for systems to act, he becomes the actor, and that reinforces the belief, again, that institutions are weak, and individuals, specifically him, are capable, decisive, and effective. So in his mind, he's again reinforcing that belief that success becomes a function of personal action

• 22:55Tristin Engels?

  instead of systemic reliance, and definitely not system dependence, even though that's also hypocritical, because he still had to rely on some of those systems to effectively carry this out.

• 23:09Vanessa Richardson?

  What do you think about the fact that Ted disguised the bomb to lure in whoever found it first, rather than addressing it to someone like he'd done before?

• 23:17Tristin Engels?

  I'm glad you asked, because that detail matters. The design is predatory in nature. The bomb was constructed to exploit a very normal human response, seeing something hazardous and removing it, something that we would want to do so that no one else gets hurt. He's exploiting that out of somebody. And to do that, he would need to anticipate behavior, and then intentionally try and manipulate that. That's forethought and calculation. Everything about this reflects planning, like who he's targeted, researching that.

• 23:49Tristin Engels?

  For one, traveling there by bus in person, which also includes planning the routes, the times, and getting the tickets, then selecting the placement where he's going to put it, and building it in this obscure way to ensure that it's detonated. This was clearly deliberate, but it also reflects emotional distancing. Because when harm is randomized like this, he's choosing someone way out of state, the victim becomes abstract. There's no name attached for him. So that can make violence psychologically easier for him to carry out because it allows him to disconnect and maintain the dehumanization that we've been discussing.

• 24:27Vanessa Richardson?

  It's not clear whether Ted was targeting Gary Wright specifically, but later that day, it was Gary who pulled into the parking lot and noticed the piece of wood with nails sticking out. When he bent down to pick it up, the bomb detonated in his hands. Debris and shrapnel exploded all around him, but Gary survived. However, he was left with permanent scars and injuries. By the time Ted was back in Montana, he was closely monitoring the outcome. He was disappointed that the explosion was non-fatal, but now that the authorities, the media, and the public had finally realized the attacks were connected, he was less frustrated than in the past. His message still wasn't coming through, though. In his mind, for that to happen,

• 25:11Vanessa Richardson?

  more people had to die. And while Ted didn't want to get caught, he did want people to take his manifesto seriously, which meant he had to make sure the name Unabomber went down in history. So he played the long game, carefully refining his explosives and writing his manifesto. During that time, Ted's relationship to his family changed significantly, too. One day in 1989, he received a letter from his younger brother, David, who'd been living in a cabin of his own in Texas. David was one of the only people Ted had stayed in touch with after abandoning his life to live alone in Montana. David had sent Ted money on occasion. In exchange, Ted sent him samples of his writing over the years.

• 25:57Vanessa Richardson?

  David had always found Ted's ideas strange. They were completely different people. David happily engaged with the parts of society Ted despised. However, like Ted, David loved the wilderness. But unlike him, being surrounded by nature wasn't about escaping human society. It was about deepening his own sense of spirituality. David finally felt like he'd done that, largely because he'd fallen in love and was moving to New York to be with his soon-to-be-wife, a woman he'd known since childhood. And he wrote to Ted to let him know. David thought his brother would be happy for him, but instead, he was livid. Their relationship had never fully healed after David fired Ted from a factory job

• 26:42Vanessa Richardson?

  almost two decades before. And now, when Ted responded to David's letter, he accused him of lacking the integrity to live a "pure" life.

• 26:54Tristin Engels?

  David probably thought that Ted was reacting to his marriage and just simply wasn't happy for him and thought that resentment from firing him was at the root of it. And although there may have been some feelings of betrayal there that never fully resolved, this reaction was likely not just about the marriage. David decided to move to New York, which is a very industrial city. And that has got the nickname "The City That Never Sleeps." That is the opposite of Ted's ideals of separation from society and certainly the opposite of "pure." Not "pure" in that marriage sense, but "pure" in the society sense. His rigidity and moral absolutism doesn't see this as something to celebrate for David. He sees it as a failure.

• 27:36Tristin Engels?

  He sees David as being a participant in the very thing he's fighting against. And this angry reaction is likely a result of that, but also, it's a loss because David seems to be one of the only emotional ties that Ted has maintained throughout his life, even though there have been a bit of an estranged period here. But now, he's finally severing it. He's likely viewing this as another form of betrayal or abandonment.

• 28:02Vanessa Richardson?

  Why do you think he was so willing to accept anyone into his life who didn't see things exactly how he did?

• 28:07Tristin Engels?

  It's because of that rigid absolutism. In his mind, you're either with me and aligned with the pure life, or you're against me, you're the enemy and complicit in the system. It's black and white thinking. And he's lived in that isolated thinking for so long with no one to challenge it. Allowing anyone to challenge it now would threaten his entire system. So someone like Ted is going to reject anyone who's against his beliefs. That's the cost of rigid thinking like this. It's protecting him and what he feels he's certain of, but he's not flexible, even relationally.

• 28:42Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted and David didn't speak again after that. About a year later, when David wrote to Ted to tell him their dad was dying of cancer, Ted only responded to confirm receipt. He didn't say anything about their father's illness. Meanwhile, six years passed since the explosion that injured Gary Wright, and the FBI wondered if the Unabomber's reign of terror had ended. Then Ted struck again. In June 1993, he mailed a bomb to the home of Charles J. Epstein, a geneticist in Tiburon, California. The explosion blew off several of Epstein's fingers and caused permanent damage to his hands and hearing loss.

• 29:24Vanessa Richardson?

  Two days later, Ted sent a bomb to Yale University. The victim was a computer scientist named David Galernter. He survived, but lost an eye and suffered severe injuries to his hand. The FBI was caught completely off guard. The Unabomber was back, and they had no leads into who their suspect might be. Ted's solitary, off-the-grid lifestyle made it especially hard for authorities to track him down. There was no public suspicious behavior to form a path to him. And when investigators lined up each individual case, they still couldn't identify a clear motive. In their eyes, there was no meaningful link between universities and airlines.

• 30:08Vanessa Richardson?

  The crimes simply didn't make sense, and they were only about to get more confusing. A year and six months passed, and in December 1994, Ted mailed a bomb to Thomas Mosser, an advertising executive in North Caldwell, New Jersey. Mosser worked in public relations, a field Ted believed helped corporations mask environmental damage to maintain public trust. When Mosser opened the package in his home, the bomb killed him instantly. Now Ted had carried out nine attacks and caused two fatalities. And when he checked the news of Mosser's death, he was proud. Because even though the FBI admitted that they still couldn't understand the Unabomber's motive,

• 30:52Vanessa Richardson?

  the public was starting to panic, exactly like Ted wanted.

• 30:58Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about why it took nine attempts and two fatalities for the public to start to panic. We have to remember that this was the 1980s and 1990s. Information moved much more slowly. News cycles were limited to television newspapers and radio. There wasn't constant exposure or real-time updates like there is today. So the public didn't connect patterns the way they might today. At first, the attacks appeared random and isolated. And that matters because we tend to evaluate risk as the public based on personal relevance. If people believed that it was unlikely to affect them because it was like two states away from where they lived and they had no connection to it, then why would they panic?

• 31:41Tristin Engels?

  Law enforcement also continued to reassure the public that they were actively investigating. That offers a sense of containment. But once the FBI admitted that they didn't understand the motive, that changes public perception. Because if you don't understand the motive, then at least to the public, that means you don't know how to prevent the next attack. That makes the threat feel more universal now. If this were happening today, I do think Ted would have likely been caught sooner. Online communities would connect patterns quickly. Media amplification would be immediate. Even if Ted rejected technology... Ideologically, it's possible he would have left some form of digital footprint anyway, especially if it served his purpose.

• 32:25Tristin Engels?

  Because that may sound inconsistent with his anti-technology stance, but Ted has shown a pattern of engaging with systems he opposes when it benefits him. Remember, he returned to academia to avoid the draft. He used public transportation to carry explosives. Nowadays, he would need to use computers to research the addresses of his victims or the business addresses. Public panic today might rise faster because information spreads faster, but it also tends to dissipate faster if the perpetrators identified more quickly. At the same time, we run the risk of being desensitized to crimes like this because of that constant exposure, but that's another conversation altogether.

• 33:04Vanessa Richardson?

  How do you think Ted's long pauses and sudden restarts affected people's perception of his crimes and their emotional responses?

• 33:12Tristin Engels?

  That's a great question because it absolutely does. Those pauses make the threat feel unpredictable, and unpredictability is what increases anxiety. If attacks happen without warning, especially after long, quiet periods, people can't form a pattern. And when you don't have a pattern, you can't anticipate risk. And our brains don't like uncertainty. So even when there's a period of calm like that, it's really hard to fully relax because the suspect hasn't been arrested and there are no answers. That means the threat still feels possible at any moment. That stop-and-start pattern can actually be more destabilizing than something that's consistent because it keeps people off balance.

• 33:52Tristin Engels?

  Psychologically, this is similar to what we see in variable reinforcement patterns. When something happens unpredictably like this, the brain stays engaged. It keeps scanning. It doesn't know when the next event will occur, so vigilance stays elevated. That's what those long pauses likely did. They didn't eliminate fear when fear was ignited, it extended it.

• 34:17Vanessa Richardson?

  It seems like Ted was feeling more confident in his bomb-making skills and his ability to avoid detection because he only waited a few months before his next attack. In April of 1995, he mailed a bomb to the California Forestry Association in Sacramento. The organization lobbied for timber companies and commercial landowners, groups Ted viewed as central to environmental destruction. The package was addressed to a former executive, but when it arrived, the group's new president, a man named Gilbert Murray, received it. Some of the other employees were hesitant about Gilbert opening the package, since by now, everyone knew about the Unabomber. But Gilbert brushed off their concerns.

• 35:01Vanessa Richardson?

  He took the package back into his office, and when the bomb detonated, it killed him. When the news broke, it left people everywhere wondering if they could be next. The world finally understood that the violence would never end. For Ted, that meant his plan was ready for the next phase, and this time, he'd make his most shocking move yet.

• 35:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Happy Halloween, Crime House listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Did you know horror films like Abigail and Sinister were based on true stories? Join me every Sunday this month on Crime House 24/7 for Crime House of Horrors, where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies. From Abigail, The Autopsy of Jane Doe, Sinister, and The Taking of Deborah Logan, you'll find one thing in common: the truth is scarier than fiction. Listen every Sunday on Crime House 24/7, or join Crime House Plus for all four right now, ad-free. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at crimehouseplus.com.

• 36:19Vanessa Richardson?

  By the spring of 1995, 53-year-old Ted Kaczynski had carried out a total of 10 attacks and killed three people. In the eyes of the public and the FBI, the violence linked to the Unabomber had reached a breaking point. Still, investigators had no leads into the Unabomber's real identity. To Ted, it was like evaluating a chessboard, and all the pieces were exactly where he wanted them. The world was paying attention, but they couldn't catch him. It was the perfect moment to take the next step in his plan. In April of that year, he sat down and wrote several letters. Each one was addressed to a major national newspaper,

• 37:01Vanessa Richardson?

  offering to stop the violence if the outlet published his manifesto. Ted signed every letter as the Unabomber. He'd been working on his manifesto for over 20 years. It outlined his radical, anti-tech ideologies and contained the answer to the question that had been haunting the authorities: What was the Unabomber's motive? If Ted could get his manifesto out there, he felt it would be a win-win. The public would finally understand the meaning behind his attacks, and they'd stop suffering from them. Plus, in his mind, powerful institutions like research universities and high-tech-powered corporations would understand they were the ones at fault.

• 37:44Tristin Engels?

  Manifestos are not uncommon. Most are emotionally reactive. They're often written quickly. They're centered on a specific grievance, event, or a group. And in many cases, they're released after the violence has ended or the individual has ended their own life. They want the public to understand their motive once the damage is already done. Ted is different from what we typically see. He worked on his manifesto for 20 years. Given his background in academia and how central intelligence was to his identity, it's almost as if he approached this like a dissertation. It's structured and methodical. It's like an argument that he wants to... be taken seriously.

• 38:28Tristin Engels?

  And now he wants it published before his violence stops. That's significant because it's leverage. In an academia, you don't just write a dissertation, you defend it. That's what this feels like. He's defending his thesis, his reasoning, even his methods. He's attempting to control how his actions are interpreted. If people read it and agree, or even just take it seriously and understand where he's coming from, then in his mind, the violence becomes justified by others, too. So if society doesn't understand him, then the mission hasn't succeeded. And after 20 years of refining his argument in isolation, that would represent a rejection of his intelligence, which is the very place where he feels he has value.

• 39:12Tristin Engels?

  So in a sense, this is also likely, in some ways, about a legacy as well.

• 39:19Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, once Ted sent the letters, he realized full control wouldn't come as easily as he'd hoped because the newspapers alerted the FBI. And for months, the authorities and the media debated the best course of action. Publishing the manifesto felt like surrendering to terrorism, but refusing could invite more bloodshed. Ultimately, in September 1995, The New York Times and The Washington Post made a joint decision. They published the manifesto, titled "Industrial Society and Its Future." Most readers found the text disturbing and extreme, but for one person, it felt deeply familiar.

• 40:01Vanessa Richardson?

  When David Kaczynski read the manifesto, he recognized the writing style immediately. It seemed identical to the letters he'd received from Ted. Despite their differences, David had never imagined that Ted's beliefs would push him toward actual violence. Now he realized just how wrong he was. The two brothers had drifted apart over the years. They hadn't spoken in almost a decade. During that time, David's wife, Linda, who'd also known Ted when they were kids, had followed news reports about the Unabomber, and she'd often told David that the suspects reminded her a lot of Ted. But David couldn't bring himself to believe it, until now.

• 40:43Vanessa Richardson?

  He couldn't deny that the manifesto was Ted's creation, and therefore so was the violence. David knew what he had to do. He was going to turn his brother over to the authorities. So he called the FBI and set up a meeting. And when the day came, he handed over a stack of Ted's letters.

• 41:04Tristin Engels?

  This is such a painful position to be in. It sounds like David may have been in denial for years despite his wife's suspicions. The brain often protects attachment by searching for alternative explanations in situations like this. It minimizes, or it rationalizes, and it holds on to the version of someone that feels safest. David knew Ted as a child, so he was likely holding on to memories of who his brother once was, the person he looked up to. Reconciling that with someone responsible for multiple terror attacks and deaths would be shocking. It caused extreme guilt, shame, and self-doubt. And then he had to act on that reality. Loyalty is deeply ingrained, especially within families.

• 41:49Tristin Engels?

  Even after a decade of estrangement, turning his brother in marks the end of any remaining version of that relationship or any hope for a path forward. There's grief in that, too. And in the end, David made a decision that protected the public and likely prevented future harm. But doing the right thing does not mean it was emotionally easy for him. Choices like that leave a psychological mark.

• 42:12Vanessa Richardson?

  From Ted's point of view, do you think he ever considered the possibility that someone would recognize his writing? I mean, he not only shared his writing with his brother, but he wrote about his ideas back at Harvard for the study over all those years.

• 42:24Tristin Engels?

  I think it's possible that he underestimated the risk of that. If he believed his ideas were logical and universal, he may have not viewed his writing voice as distinctive or identifiable. There's also overconfidence. He had evaded authorities for years. That can reinforce the belief that you're smarter than the system, which creates blind spots. He may have considered the possibility someone could recognize it, but in his mind, publishing the manifesto mattered more to him. It was essential, and that outweighed the risk. And I think it's likely that he underestimated that the person who would connect the dots ultimately would be his own brother.

• 43:02Vanessa Richardson?

  From an investigative point of view, how might have Ted's letters to his brother David, which went back years and served as a precursor to his manifesto, how might they have added to their psychological understanding of Ted as a suspect?

• 43:15Tristin Engels?

  I'm not an investigator, but I know that those letters were extremely valuable at a time like this because they provided motive and longitudinal data. They can see the evolution of his ideology. And that helps establish consistency, intent, perception, and just authorship. Because stylistically, they allow for language comparison, much like David just did. They can look for patterns in his vocabulary, his tone, syntax, and themes, which can strengthen the connection and potentially give them a solid suspect for the first time. So I think these letters were a very huge breakthrough for investigators.

• 43:59Vanessa Richardson?

  At first, investigators were cautious about David's tip because after the Unabomber's manifesto was published, thousands of tips had come flooding in, and most of them went nowhere. But the more they spoke with David, the more it made sense. David explained that he and Ted had written letters because his brother didn't have a phone. He lived completely off the grid in a cabin he'd built himself. He had no friends and had fallen out of touch with their family. He was a loner. Hearing this, investigators realized just how much Ted fit the profile of the Unabomber. Before they could arrest him, though, they had to prove their theory had weight. So they enlisted the help of linguistic experts to analyze the letter. Soon, the experts agreed.

• 44:44Vanessa Richardson?

  The tone, phrasing, and rhetoric in the letters matched the Unabomber's manifesto. David had already told the agents where Ted lived, and they wasted no time going after him. On April 3rd, 1996, Ted was alone in his cabin when a swarm of agents suddenly had the place surrounded. When they entered, Ted was swiftly apprehended. He didn't try to put up a fight.

• 45:10Tristin Engels?

  Ted has been living alone in isolation for decades. He's never had visitors, at least that we know of. He didn't interact with anyone, and he was fully self-reliant. And suddenly, he has multiple agents surrounding his home, kicking at his door, and taking him into custody. That's a complete loss of agency. And that was probably very shocking to Ted, to have that many people suddenly on his property. So his calmness and the fact that he didn't put up a fight might have been partly because of that shock, but it could also have been part resignation, or even acceptance. Ted is smart, we know this. He had to know there was an inevitable end to this, especially after he insisted

• 45:49Tristin Engels?

  on being recognized. When you escalate violence and then demand publication of your manifesto, you're accepting risk that comes with that. If he's feeling anything right now, it's likely the realization that the autonomy he fought so hard for is over, and it's ending in a way he may have feared, which is quite literally institutional control over him, likely for the rest of his life.

• 46:17Vanessa Richardson?

  As Ted was calmly escorted into a police vehicle, investigators combed through the rest of his belongings. Then, hidden beneath a bed, agents found something chilling: bomb-making equipment and chemicals. They had stopped the Unabomber just in time. In the days after the arrest, investigators started building their case. They catalogued evidence, compared Ted's journals against the details of each crime, and compared bomb fragments from crime scenes to the materials found in Ted's cabin. A few weeks later, he was indicted on 10 counts of illegally transporting, mailing, and using bombs, and three counts of murder. As prosecutors prepared for trial,

• 47:02Vanessa Richardson?

  they were met with another chilling surprise about Ted's life, one that connected him to one of the most shocking scandals in US history. Back in 1975, the US government revealed to the public that for 20 years, the CIA had carried out something known as Project MKUltra, which involved horrific experiments on US citizens. During these experiments, undercover agents used psychological torture and electroshock therapy on their subjects. They even drugged subjects with psychedelics and paralytics. All of this was meant to test potential torture methods that could be used against the nation's enemies. About 150 people had been subjected to this abuse.

• 47:47Vanessa Richardson?

  The CIA found most of them in prisons, hospitals, and universities, including Harvard. When investigators looked into Ted's background, they realized he may have been used as a test subject in Project MKUltra. The study he participated in at Harvard, led by Dr. Henry Murray, had been confirmed as part of it. It's unclear what exactly Ted endured during the experiment, but when authorities discovered he'd been a part of it, they realized just how much anger and delusion had likely fueled the Unabomber all along.

• 48:22Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about MKUltra, because I think we need to make some distinctions about that and Ted's participation. It's definitely true and confirmed that Project MKUltra was a real CIA program that ran from the 1950s into the early 1970s. It did involve unethical experimentation, including drug studies and interrogation techniques, without informed consent. That's well documented, and it's horrific that psychological studies were once weaponized in that way. However, in Ted's case, the confirmed component of the Harvard study involved psychological stress testing and humiliation. And Ted himself has denied that he was subjected to any of the other aspects of MKUltra,

• 49:05Tristin Engels?

  only admitting to the psychological abuse and humiliation, which we talked about in episode one. He's even rejected the idea that this study contributed to his violent behavior in any definitive way. And it's important not to overattribute this because back then, a lot of people were subjected to abusive research tactics and they did not become violent. So that said, it can't be understated, though, that what he was subjected to and confirmed to have been subjected to is still very harmful. That kind of treatment can have lasting impact, especially if someone already struggles with mistrust or sensitivity to rejection or rigid thinking. That study could have taught him that institutions are adversarial, authority humiliates, and

• 49:50Tristin Engels?

  there's no trusting other people. It may have also added to his institutional worldview that he was already forming prior to the study with his earlier academic experiences and feeling shame or out of place. But the reality is, human behavior is so complex and Ted's trajectory appears to really reflect cumulative factors that led to his violence. Things like early attachment disruptions from when he was nine months old, social isolation, rigid thinking, identity, perceived loss of control, and prolonged grievance formation. And then years of this being self-reinforced in isolation. I wish we could point at one singular thing and place the blame there because that would

• 50:33Tristin Engels?

  be easiest to make sense of this chaos, but it's never just that simple.

• 50:40Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted denied being put through any extreme abuse. If anything, he was only angry that he'd been lied to. And in the end, he wouldn't let his defense team use mental illness to justify his actions. He wanted people to know he meant every word of his manifesto and regretted none of his actions. However, Ted was facing the death penalty, so in 1998, he accepted a plea deal. In exchange for pleading guilty, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, but he never apologized to his victims or their loved ones.

• 51:17Vanessa Richardson?

  David, on the other hand, had received a million-dollar reward for his role in Ted's capture, which he donated to the victims and their families. Ted spent the remainder of his life in federal custody. His manifesto continued to circulate, and he exchanged letters with people sympathetic to his cause. He'd finally gained the recognition he'd longed for. But in 2023, whatever sense of glory he may have had, came to a screeching halt. By then, Ted was 81 years old, and he'd been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. After that, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. That year, without leaving behind

• 51:58Vanessa Richardson?

  any sort of final message, Ted Kaczynski took his own life in prison. Ted never spoke to David again after his arrest, but he expressed a deep sense of betrayal for David turning him in. In the end, Ted may have gotten his recognition, but it wasn't for being a revolutionary. It was for being a monster.

• 52:34Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer.

• 52:40Tristin Engels?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 53:03Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content.

• 53:19Vanessa Richardson?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Laurie Marinelli, Natalie Protzowski, Sarah Camp, Sarah Bachelor, Ines Renike, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series, The First Forty-Eight. Step inside the critical window, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open. I'm Carter Roy. Each week, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation with the depth you know and immersive, long-form storytelling built for your ears. Real detectives, real cases, real stakes. This is The First Forty-Eight.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  New episodes every Thursday. Listen to and follow The First Forty-Eight on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 54:55Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact! with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact! wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.