How to Give Up Everything to Save Yourself (ft. Matt from Yes Theory)

In 2021, Matt from Yes Theory, one of YouTube's biggest channels, revealed he was quitting the platform. Despite being an internet celebrity, Matt's story is a common one—about someone who gave away too much of themselves to be liked by others, and now desperately trying to get themselves back. In this episode, Matt and I unpack this familiar dilemma, as well as covering topics like codependence, managing success, dealing with parasocial relationships, determining when vulnerability goes too far, and much more. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:59 Why Matt’s giving up his dream 00:09:00 The challenges fame brings 00:14:14 How to mature in the spotlight 00:17:45 The incredible story of Yes Theory 00:21:53 Losing boundaries in the world of fame 00:26:54 Performing, not living 00:27:58 How much of yourself to share as a creator 00:35:44 Matt’s top tip for being a creator 00:37:29 Intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation in creative work 00:43:52 Matt’s biggest takeaway from his career 00:48:06 How Matt went from hating to loving his book 00:51:56 What makes the Yes Theory team work 00:53:54 What’s next for Matt 00:57:28 Fuck, Marry, Kill ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  Imagine this, you're 20 years old, broke and working as a dishwasher in a restaurant. And one night, a new friend that you just met comes over and tells you about an idea that he had for a YouTube channel. You guys get excited and you decide to do it together. Now imagine these videos go so well that within six months, you and your new friend are getting millions of views, being flown to Los Angeles, meeting up with billionaires and tycoons, and receiving massive checks to create as much content as you possibly can. Jump ahead seven years and you've made hundreds of videos, have millions of followers and become famous worldwide. Your videos have been viewed over one billion times. That is billion with a B. And yet, at the peak of your fame and fortune, you decide to hang it up.

• 0:44Mark Manson?

  This is the story of today's guest, Matt Dahlia, one of the co-founders of Yes Theory, one of the most popular YouTube channels in the world. A channel that began as four friends traveling the world, challenging each other to say yes to some of life's most crazy adventures. Matt and I will talk about how it's possible to have a codependent relationship with an audience. We talk about the perils of experiencing too much success too quickly and the courage that it takes to stand up for yourself, even when it means giving up your life's dream. I'm excited for this episode, not just because Matt's a friend of mine and his story is so crazy and unique, but simply because it's so rare to come across someone who is so successful, yet completely candid about their struggles and fears.

• 1:28Mark Manson?

  What we'll discover is that at its core, Matt's story is actually a very common one. It's about someone who gave away too much of themselves to be liked and admired by others. And now, as a grown adult in his 30s, he is desperately trying to get that back. So stick around for this one. It's gonna be fucking crazy.

• 1:58Mark Manson?

  So in a recent study, they asked six to seventeen year olds what they wanted to be when they grew up. And the number one answer by far, probably don't even have to tell you, is a YouTuber. The answer was three times more common than an astronaut or any sort of professional athlete. All the kids want to become a YouTuber. That's the dream. You became a famous YouTuber at a young age, your early twenties, grew a massive channel and then called it quits. So what the fuck dude, you've given up the dream. What's going on here?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Six year old me would be like, you idiot!

• 2:33Mark Manson?

  You ruined everything!

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Dude, we had a plan!

• 2:37Mark Manson?

  You had it all!

• 2:40Speaker 01

  What the fuck happened? That is a great question. To give a little bit of context, we started getting quite big in 2018. And we'd been living in LA for a year and it was like, holy shit, we're growing so fast. Like all these famous people want to work with us and it's turning into this thing, like this dream that we had. Cause up to that point, you know, it was kind of just an idea. It was a big dream. And I actually went back and read my diary during that time. And there was one diary entry where I could see the first signs of not being able to continue for much longer. And it was essentially saying, I about four to five times a day introduce myself to new people in my own house.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  So we have people coming in constantly because we're recording, at the time we were doing three videos a week. So we were just recording constantly with strangers and people and throwing events and parties. And you know, our channel was Yes Theory, saying yes to things. So we were just constantly saying yes, even when we didn't necessarily feel like it. And it was the first glimpse in that diary entry of like, I don't actually level this part or actually a lot of it. And at the time, I had no idea that I was more introverted than I thought. Like YouTube oftentimes requires this big extroversion or at least this kind of fake extroversion. Like I, I don't know if fake is the best word, but...

• 4:05Mark Manson?

  You turn it on.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  You turn it off.

• 4:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  I was gonna say talking heads.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I was like, but oftentimes, you know, especially like comedian talking heads. Like I I've met quite a few of them where on camera, they're like very expressive and loud and funny. And then you meet them in person, they're way more introverted. And.

• 4:23Mark Manson?

  For me, it's live events. It's like.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Really?

• 4:26Mark Manson?

  There's a switch that goes on and it's like, okay, just get through the night. You could stay in the hotel quietly all day tomorrow.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  You reflect on how horrible you feel.

• 4:38Mark Manson?

  So you've got all these people coming into your house, shooting videos all the time. There are two things that stand out about that that are potentially very stressful or difficult to deal with. One is the lack of any barrier between public and private. I think anytime you don't have like a clear me space or me time in your life.

• 5:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah, things just get bad pretty quickly. And the second thing I think is this feeling that you always need to be on and performing. Right? The camera's always on. So not only are these people coming into your house, but you have to pretend to like them, even if you don't. You have to pretend to be having fun, even if you're not. You have to pretend to be excited about whatever they're talking about, even if you don't care. And I think it's just like basic human psychology. That doesn't work for a long period of time.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:35Mark Manson?

  Was there any awareness around this at the time where you like, I need a week off or I need, I need like space? I need a break. Can we do two videos a week instead of three? You know, anything like that, any conversations around that?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I think YouTube attracts a particular kind of person. Like this stat that you just shared of kids wanting to be YouTubers. Like the amount of people that I've met that have started to try doing YouTube, especially young people, and then quit pretty quickly because they realize it's not healthy for them.

• 6:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Is actually quite high. So there's actually very few people I know who have kept creating and succeeded. When you bring up these questions, it goes back to psychology as well. It's like, how was I raised? What was I taught as a kid? And obviously my parents.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Taught me amazing qualities and taught me to work hard, but there's, you know, there's a thing my mom would always say. Growing up is never say, I'm lazy. Not allowed in the house. You were literally not allowed to utter those words. And so the concept of taking a break felt very contradictory to how I was raised. And then the second thing is, I was also raised in an environment, because we moved when I was quite young. And both of my siblings are quite introverted and I was the most extroverted of the three of us. And so when we would go to parties and we didn't know many people in the neighborhood, I almost felt like this, like the diplomat.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Like I would show up and be this guy that would put on the show and bring people around him and, you know, everybody loved Matt. And Matt was the handshaker and like the joke crackadoodle.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I'll make fun of myself. You're the Fonzie of the neighborhood. And I think that honestly translated to YouTube and it translated to, to the way Yes Theory operated. It was actually a joke between Thomas Ammar and I, like my two co-founders. Cause they're also quite extroverted, but they didn't have this, this need to please as much as I did. And so we would be, we would throw these like huge events. And I would find myself at like two in the morning in this conversation that I didn't want to be in. Out of just pure obligation. Yeah. And I couldn't find them anywhere. And they'd left two hours before to go to their rooms and just kind of take a breather and, you know, or left the house entirely.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  And it became this common joke that if you were in a circle with Matt, he would keep the conversation up and you could just leave. Cause he would take, you know, he'd take care of the social part. Yeah. And I kind of prided myself on that for a long time, but I think that was a huge part of what made it exhausting. Cause I mean, I don't know if you've experienced this with YouTube, but it's so different from. Like being an actor, when you're an actor, there's this kind of understanding that you're playing a role, like this isn't actually you.

• 8:24Mark Manson?

  You're on set.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  You're on set.

• 8:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah, when you're off set, it's over.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Be a dude.

• 8:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  But with YouTube, there's this idea of like, oh, this is Mark, and this is how Mark is always. And so if I walk up to Mark, you know, it's this parasocial thing, it's, he's gonna be just like he is in his videos. So there is this pressure to be that guy. Like, I gotta be, like, I'm fucking outgoing, I'm gonna listen to you, I'm gonna make you feel seen. And that is a true part of me, but after a while, I think the reason for the burnout, a big part of it was, I just got super tired of that role.

• 9:00Mark Manson?

  In everything that we just talked about, if you replace YouTube with, I think, any sort of relationship, you would probably see a very similar result. Like, when, when people grow up in family structures with, maybe without strong boundaries in certain areas, they grow up in interrelationships without strong boundaries in those same areas. And it just so happens that your relationship was this massive relationship with a fanbase of five or 10 million people, but it's the same core issue, right? It's, it's like, it never felt appropriate for you to say, no, I need me time. When you're young, and so when you're put in a, a situation as an adult, very highly

• 9:44Mark Manson?

  stressful situation, by the way, that I think most people would struggle to handle well, that same thing pops up. Like, you don't feel okay saying no, or backing off.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Do you experience that? Cause I mean, even, we had this conversation, like, with your, the size, obviously of your YouTube audience, but also your newsletter's massive, like, do you feel the, this obligation to sometimes overshare part of your life?

• 10:09Mark Manson?

  I used to when I started. It's interesting watching, I'm gonna sound like an old man now, it's interesting watching... Your generation, the generation behind me coming up. Because I was, I look back now and I, I think to myself, thank God I didn't blow up until my late twenties. Because I already had a lot of years to fuck up and make a lot of mistakes. And figure myself out, figure out how to relate to people a little bit better. And even then, the rate of my audience growth early on, like it was pretty gradual the first three or four years.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  With the blog?

• 10:47Mark Manson?

  Back then blogging grew much, at a much slower pace than like YouTube does these days or TikTok or Instagram. So I had more time to kind of accustom myself to it and, and figure out, like find some of these pitfalls. Uh, and adjust for them. Whereas I look at, um, you guys' story. Like reading your book that's, that's about to come out. Your trajectory was so insanely steep and at such a young age. It's, to me, actually what's crazy is that you guys are still friends. It's crazy that there's still a yes theory at all. It's, it's remarkable that more things didn't go wrong.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 11:28Mark Manson?

  In, in you guys' case.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  It was gonna sound really bougie, but I was getting a massage.

• 11:32Mark Manson?

  Fuck yeah.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Fuck yeah, dude. Treating myself.

• 11:35Mark Manson?

  That's what we worked for.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  And I had this moment in mid-massage where I was like, wow, I'm still. So much of part of me is still high school mad. And in a way, it feels like I started yes theory almost out of high school. Like I, I had done college, but that mentality had stuck. And when you're so busy, uh, making content, there is literally no time. To pause, process, reflect. And so in a way you kind of stay in that, the mentality that you were in before you got famous.

• 12:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I'm thirty one now, but I have this feeling, and this is probably not going to sound very inspiring, but I'm like, holy shit, I'm still like nineteen year old Matt. And I've done all this crazy stuff and had all this success, but I, I, I feel like I haven't in many ways matured out of that guy.

• 12:37Mark Manson?

  But again, and this isn't meant to diminish your experience at all, but it's, it's, to me, it's remarkable, the parallel, people who get out of unhealthy marriages. Let's say somebody gets married at twenty, it's a bad marriage, they stick in it till they're thirty one, right? And they come out of it. They often have a very similar experience of like, they still feel, they kind of go back to who they were at nineteen, before they got into the marriage. And I think a big reason for that is, I think comes back to the performing thing. It's like when, when you go into a bad marriage or a bad relationship,

• 13:12Mark Manson?

  you kind of hide your real self and you start performing to, to keep the other person happy. And you're like, well, if I can just perform a little bit more, things will be okay, things will get better, they'll be happy, then I'll be happy. And it just kind of, it gets in this like ugly cycle. And then eventually it falls apart because that's not sustainable. But I've talked to, at this point, hundreds, maybe even thousands of people over the course of my career, who are like, I'm thirty, I'm forty, fifty, I was in a bad marriage for twenty years, and I feel like I'm twenty again, because I never lived for myself during those interim years. They kind of put their, their identity off to the side and then like

• 13:54Mark Manson?

  pretended to be this other thing. And then when they come back, it's like, yeah, it's still the old twenty year old self sitting there on the sideline. And I think that's why a lot of times you see like, middle aged divorced people like going to nightclubs and like

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Am I gonna be that guy?

• 14:10Mark Manson?

  Smoking poker the first time.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  I guess because you've seen so many case studies, what are examples of people learning to mature? Like, how do they, how do the success stories usually unfold?

• 14:25Mark Manson?

  It's easy to sit here and poke fun at, you know, forty year olds going to nightclubs and taking Molly for the first time. But I do think there's a certain amount of that that's really important and healthy. You need to figure out who you are. And if you've, whether it's a marriage or a YouTube channel, if you've kind of spent the last Eight years of your life, kind of putting on a front or performing all the time. You need to go back and finish that project of like, okay, who am I? Let me try all these things. Let me try out a bunch of activities and hobbies and identities and relationships and see what feels right for me. And, um, and so I think just granting yourself the freedom to do that is like super healthy.

• 15:10Mark Manson?

  And I mean, what I love about what you, what you've done with, with the guys is that it seems like you've really patched the relationships with the S theory guys. I get no sense of like bitterness or resentment, like those friendships are still intact. So you still have like great things from that period of your life that you can honor that period of your life with. But I feel like I'm like starting to cycle analyze you, but.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Dude, I love this. I need this, dude. It's just like therapy. Please keep going.

• 15:39Mark Manson?

  Keep going. No, but it's funny like hearing you and we've talked a little bit privately about your experience. But it like, it really feels like you had a codependent relationship with a YouTube channel. And that on the surface, that sentence sounds absurd, but people have codependent relationships with their careers. They have codependent relationships with their churches and religious groups. They have codependent relationships with self-help gurus. People have codependent relationships with a lot of different things. And I think it's very easy to see, especially somebody as young as you were when yes, theory started. Nobody knows who they are when they're 20, right? And so when you get this massive thing dumped on you, it's very hard to stay aligned and stay true to yourself

• 16:22Mark Manson?

  during that kind of rocket ship that takes off with you just like desperately hanging on to the side of it.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  And you kind of have no choice.

• 16:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Cause I mean, yeah, I was literally washing dishes at 22 and 24 and you know, we're starting on.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Like we're gaining hundreds of thousands of followers and you know it's like the first actual success of my life up until that point. Yeah, I'd gotten As on essays in in school, but I was like, wait, hold on.

• 16:53Mark Manson?

  That's not success.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there's like 50 year old successful businessmen that want to talk to us about what we're doing. So you feel like it's this very fragile thing. And if you let go of it, then you have to start like I have to be that that kid in the restaurant, like scrubbing dishes at 3am again. And I don't want to be that guy.

• 17:09Mark Manson?

  For sure.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  So there's this like deep, deep fear of going back. And so, yeah.

• 17:13Mark Manson?

  It's very similar to like, say, music or TV film. You understand that it's like one in a million make it.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Mark Manson?

  So if you start making it.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:23Mark Manson?

  You know, top priority is like, don't fuck this up.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:28Mark Manson?

  Don't derail the train while it's moving.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's big wave surfing. That's kind of the analogy I uses. The last thing you want to do is jump off.

• 17:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Because you're just gonna crumble. It's gonna suck more.

• 17:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Just finish riding the wave and then think about what just happened.

• 17:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Kind of just like walk us through the timeline of how quickly everything happened.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  So in 2014, I'm washing dishes in Montreal. I'm like a few months out of college and obviously like very confused about what I want to do with my life. And I had started this very small clothing startup, this streetwear brand. It's like, this is gonna be the thing. It's gonna blow up. I'm gonna be a successful entrepreneur. And then after about six months, I realized that having a business is fucking impossibly difficult. And at the time, I was looking for help. So I found this class at the school I used to go to, which was doing like marketing, like consulting for local businesses and using their students to consult. And one of the students that I that was consulting for my business was

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Thomas. And Thomas had a small YouTube channel. And I was noticing how like YouTube was still quite new, but I was seeing how brands were starting to come from these big audiences online. I was like, holy shit, if I just convince a YouTuber to shout out my brand, like that'll bring a lot of traction. And so I eventually convinced Thomas to make a video with me. We make a video. We do a shout out at the end for my clothing company. Doesn't sell any clothes, but we. It's like, wow, we had this like really intense bond and it's really fun. And so then we decided to do the 30 things in 30 days that we've never done before. And then very, almost like, like you said, it happens so fast that even in the book, it felt crazy to write it. Cause it's like, how do I make this sound real? Cause it sounds fake.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Like Amar, literally the third co-founder is walking down the street one night. And here's this party upstairs, which Thomas is at. So Amar sneaks up to the party out of curiosity. Says hi to everybody, meets Thomas. Thomas tells him about him and I doing our YouTube thing. Amar is like, I'd love to help. Amar comes in and we meet a fourth co-founder Darren. Serendipitously, we filmed this 30 things in 30 days together in Montreal. And I'm like, might as well continue after this, cause we had so much fun. How many followers did you guys have? At the end of the month, probably 1500. So like it was steadily growing. We were, I mean, when you cross a thousand, you're like, that's a thousand. I mean, it usually takes people years. Yeah, that's why. And we had one big viral video like on day 19.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  So it, we could feel like, oh, this is unusual. Like this doesn't usually happen. This kind of traction. And then, you know, four months in, we get this email from Liz Murdoch's team, who are starting a channel with Snapchat. And they say, we love what you guys are doing. We want this kind of content to be on Snapchat, on the front page where millions of people are gonna watch. You'll still be able to make your YouTube videos, but now you'll get this like extra boost from Snapchat. And on top of that, we'll pay you 50K to film for four months, wherever you want. And again, dude, I mean, Amar is, when I think back, I'm like, wow, he's 21 at the time. Yeah. Like imagine $50,000 to a 21 year old. Like what?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  And you guys haven't even known each other for six months. Not even four. Four months and you're getting offered 50K and basically. And just continue being best friends. Just keep being best friends. That's all that fucking matters. It's just your relationship and how much fun you guys are having together. And so Snapchat flies us out to LA. We end up on the front page of Snapchat. Millions of people watch us on Snapchat. Within a year, we have hundreds of thousands of people moving over to our YouTube channel. So I think within like about a year and a half to two years, we had like 200, 300,000 subscribers. Three years, we had a million.

• 21:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  And so there was no moment of, hey, hold on, this is not working. Let's pivot, let's do something else. It was like, no, this is from the get go.

• 21:31Mark Manson?

  It was like, everything worked.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Holy shit. So I actually don't even know, I don't understand the struggle of, like when I hear people talk to me about like, dude, I've been grinding on this for three years and I just don't know what to do.

• 21:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  I can't relate. I just don't understand that process. So I can't really give advice. But at the same time, yeah, I paid a price for that.

• 21:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  You know?

• 21:53Mark Manson?

  Well, it's interesting. So Morgan Housel, the finance writer, was on this podcast a few weeks ago.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 21:58Mark Manson?

  And he said something really great. He said that one of the worst things that can happen to an investor is they make a bunch of money really quickly because they mistakenly convince themselves that they're really good. And it gets them into a lot of trouble later on because they never, they never develop the good habits from those failures that are necessary to make it sustainable in the long run. I wonder if there's a, you know, there's a crossover there. Like if there's like an analogy there of too much success, too fast, not learning maybe some of the necessary lessons.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 22:36Mark Manson?

  And this kind of comes back to your question to me is like, my audience grew slowly enough. And I had enough like bad decisions that didn't work that I think by the time I, I did blow up, I had developed a pretty good boundary with, between myself and my audience. Like I understood like, okay, this is the part of my life that I'm going to keep for myself. And I'm not going to share it. And then this is the part of my life that I'm gonna share and is open to everybody. And for me, that was a very, very important process.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  I actually watched the Morgan Housel interview and there was a, I think he referenced what Will said about fame.

• 23:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  You know, there's nothing worse than losing fame.

• 23:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, he became obviously famous at a very young age and on a whole different level.

• 23:23Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  You know, so I can't even comprehend that.

• 23:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  There does grow this, like, if this is all you've known as a success, as soon as it starts to dip, not even like the views necessarily, but if people start getting frustrated with you or the criticisms start coming in, you're not adapted for that, you know, because people love the rocket ship, but they don't love it when the rocket gets kind of steady and

• 23:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  You know, they, they want to be part of the wave, but as soon as it becomes this big thing, I think more criticism, criticism starts to come in.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, it, it became this like intense pressure to please, like constantly, please, please, please, please at all costs. And like you were saying, you know, you, it's developed this codependent relationship with it where the second you feel like you've made them mad or angry, you almost change your whole personality to kind of

• 24:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  You know.

• 24:19Mark Manson?

  You're like, no, wait, guys. Yeah, no, no, really, I'm still fun. I'm still fun.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude.

• 24:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the lack of boundaries thing, I mean, dude, I look back on some of the shit we did is crazy.

• 24:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  One episode in particular, to me is absurd to think about now, but Amar surprised me on this blind date to Rome with a girl. It's like beautiful Australian girl and it was gonna be this like full day of adventures and the best blind date of all time. And we filmed the episode and her and I have this actual connection and we start seeing each other. I was in Europe at the time, she lived in Paris, so we spent a few weeks together. And then I moved back to LA and there was this thing of like, how do we, like, what do we do? Who, you know?

• 25:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  What is this relationship now? And I hadn't given her an answer, but in my mind, I was like, there's no way I'm gonna keep this up. So I was like, I'm just gonna let the audience know, cuz there's so many people asking what happened to Matt and this girl.

• 25:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  And so I made a post on our Instagram, being like, a photo of me and her, dude. I was like, hey, guys, just so you know, we're not seeing each other anymore. We had a really great time.

• 25:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Obviously, you know, long distance, etc. And then the next day, I got a call from her, being like, are you out of your mind?

• 25:46Mark Manson?

  It's like, wait, had you told her yet?

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Hadn't told her.

• 25:48Mark Manson?

  No!

• 25:49Speaker 01

  I hadn't mentioned it. I told thousands of random strangers.

• 25:54Mark Manson?

  You broke up with a girl by posting?

• 25:57Speaker 01

  On Instagram.

• 25:59Mark Manson?

  To like hundreds of thousands of people?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that goes to show you how, like, almost the disease.

• 26:06Mark Manson?

  How skewed, yeah, just how.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  You're so lost in this world, where you're so obsessed with what these strangers think about you, that this person that you have a connection with, almost like, goes to the side. It's like, I mean, I, I remember actually even waking up next to her in bed one morning, and the first thing I was, I waited an hour until we crossed 600,000 subscribers. You know, on Social Blade, you used to be able to see it. I don't know if you still can, but like, I would, I was just watching these numbers go up. And I'm like, in Paris with this girl, and I'm like, when I look back on it, and this goes back to me being a high school kid. Now, going forward, like, those are the moments where I wanna be like, put the phone away.

• 26:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Be present. This is living. Like, you're not, this, you don't need to perform. You don't need to please all these people.

• 26:54Mark Manson?

  Do you think some of it was, you were afraid to, to have those moments, to actually live your life? Like, you didn't know who you were, so if you did put the phone away in that moment, it was terrifying?

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Horrifying.

• 27:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  And I, now, having done more inner work, I can see why. I avoided it. There's a lot of scary shit to look at. And the performance is, it's nice, cuz it's familiar.

• 27:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  You know?

• 27:21Mark Manson?

  I bet there's a lot of...

• 27:24Mark Manson?

  Classic Hollywood celebrity stories that are similar to that. There was a little bit of that with Will's story.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Cause Will, I mean, even reading the book you guys wrote, like there's, but he's like going from music to TV show and then TV show to movies.

• 27:38Mark Manson?

  He became an absolute workaholic and he could always justify it because, you know, he's on a rocket ship and nobody wants to stop the rocket ship when it's going. But yeah, a lot of it was just avoiding dealing with a lot of family pain and childhood stuff and stuff with his dad.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Do you feel like for you, you dealt with that stuff in your twenties? Like you were saying?

• 28:02Mark Manson?

  Not all of it, but I think, again, I, I remember very early on when I was blogging, I was probably three or four years into blogging. And I really, I noticed that there were certain things in my personal life that felt very good to write about. And there were certain things in my personal life that felt really bad to write about.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Like just internally?

• 28:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I mean, I never had an experience as extreme as the one with that, that girl, but there were definitely some things in my personal life that I wrote. And after it went up and I started getting comments and responses on it, I was like, wow, this feels terrible. Like I kind of wish I didn't write this. I, I don't want to know what people think about.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Cause you hadn't fully processed it or it was too personal?

• 28:40Mark Manson?

  Too personal, too sensitive. I don't remember exactly when, but it was a few years in, I just kind of came to this realization. Cause it really started making me miserable. Cause I, I felt the same thing or I think most creators feel this at some point early in their career of this trying to find that boundary of what, what, what parts of me am I going to share and what parts of me am I going to keep for myself? And I just noticed that it kept making me feel bad writing about certain things, certain topics. And then also sometimes people in your personal life read it and send you an angry text message or an angry phone call. And I'm like, wait, what the fuck? Like I didn't know you felt this way.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the views.

• 29:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah, but the views. Yeah, I'm killing it. So yeah, I just hit a point where I realized, I'm like, you know, I think for my own sanity, I need to get really clear with myself, like what I'm willing to share and what I'm not. And I think it was kind of, I kind of made the decision that to really try to keep things to stuff in my past. So like, I'm pretty comfortable sharing any sort of problem I've had in the past. Any problem I'm having now in the moment.

• 29:50Mark Manson?

  That, I don't share that because the act of sharing it complicates it, right? So it's like, if I have a problem with my dad, which I did for many years, if I wrote about that, that's just gonna make the problem fucking 10 times worse. You know, so I never wrote about it and, you know, but it's like, once things are good, then maybe at some point, it's like, I can talk about it. But it's, it seems obvious in retrospect, but when you're young and you're in it and you're still kind of figuring out what those adult relationships look like in your life, it's, uh, it's hard, it's complicated.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  I will say, it's pretty crazy how much vulnerability, obviously in relationships, but also parasocial relationships works. Like, for example, Amar, three years into making videos, got a letter from his dad about, his dad wasn't happy. He's like a very traditional guy and wasn't happy with the videos Amar was making. And so essentially threatened to disown him. And Amar made the decision of reading the letter to our audience.

• 30:55Mark Manson?

  See, that makes me so uncomfortable.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  So he's, like you're saying, it's opposite of what you're doing.

• 30:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  In the middle of dealing with this problem, he shared this, this letter and then reminds people to like, stick to their truth. That in a way for us was like a huge turning point because it, our, our audience was really strong and our community was really, really believed in us. But that literally, I think, turned people into like, super fans. Like, they became obsessed. And Amar especially got like a ton of people from, you know, the Middle East and people from more traditional backgrounds who really identified with what he was sharing. And I think about it, you know, there's this line from my, one of my favorite artists, Jay Cole, the rapper, uh, in one of his songs, he says, uh, uh, he talks about like, sharing too much with his audience. And he goes, "You know me better than I know myself."

• 31:44Speaker 01

  And he talks about how scary that is. And the music I find that I've connected to the most is the music that's the most real, the most vulnerable, the most personal. And so that line is so freaking hard. Like, I think about, you know, some of my favorite writers, like Elizabeth Gilbert.

• 32:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  You know, Tara Westover with Educated, Roxane Gay. You know, these, these writers are like, reveal all their shit.

• 32:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  And a lot of it's not fully dealt with. And I, even with this book, sometimes like there, a lot of the stuff that I wrote is not entirely dealt with. But there's this almost maybe like sacrificial part of me, self sacrificial part of me, or it's like martyrdom.

• 32:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  That I hold, and maybe they have it too, these writers. But this feeling of like, this is what'll connect the most with people. But I do feel afterwards, this like, oh, even with the newsletter, sometimes I'll write stuff and just be like, oh. And so I, I find that now my opinion's changing. It's like the books that you've written have changed my life. Like, I feel truly like I am a pupil of Mark Manson. Like, it's, it's funny being here because I, I do feel like you're an older brother for me in, in the way that before we even met, I was reading your stuff and just feeling very guided by it. And so there's this sense of, you know, you do reveal some parts of your life in your books and in your blog and now in your videos. But you limit it.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  And I think it almost requires more creativity to find other things to talk about. Cause talking about yourself's easy. You know, it's going to connect. You don't have to be that creative about it, but after a while it does kind of drain you.

• 33:22Mark Manson?

  I'm glad you brought up the thing with Amar because I remember seeing that video. And I also remember seeing the, he did a video where he reunited with his dad after not seeing him for six years. That one made me uncomfortable too. Cause my, my reaction to that whole video was like, dude, this is for you. Like this is not for us. This is for you. And, you know, that was my reaction and, and, but I think you bring up a good point. Like I, there's definitely a question of how much is this going to help people? And I, I think with, in the case of the letter.

• 33:55Mark Manson?

  And I think that's something that I never thought of, you know, just being fucking white boy from the West. Is like, how many other? Middle Eastern Muslim kids feel the way, struggle with the same thing that he's struggling with. And when you put that lens on it, it becomes extremely powerful. And it can actually be very liberating because I think social media, when it's used the best is when it takes people who are experiencing something difficult in their lives and they feel like they're the only ones experiencing it. And then they see somebody, especially somebody very prominent, who's experiencing the same thing and just talking about it, just normalizing it, being like, this is a thing, it's really hard in my life, you know, it might be hard in yours too. I think that that's very meaningful for millions of people.

• 34:40Mark Manson?

  If there was anything in my life that I really felt like talking about this could benefit millions of people who are experiencing the same thing and nobody's talking about it, then I would probably err on the side of like, okay, I'm gonna overshare, even though this might make my life more difficult.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  It's especially tough, I would say, if you're desperate. If you're desperate for success and you wanna build.

• 34:59Mark Manson?

  Then you share everything.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Let it out.

• 35:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's the, and in a way, yeah, that's what we kinda, that was the decision we kinda made.

• 35:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, you let strangers have an opinion about a thing you haven't even started processing it. Then you're 31 years old and you're like, alright, now you gotta like go to therapy.

• 35:15Mark Manson?

  Time for therapy, yeah. It's also, it's one of those classic, kind of naive, idealistic, young person things, you know, when, I think most people, you know, when you're 25, you're like, I should be able to share everything. I should be able to be who I am in front of anybody all the time and everybody else should feel the same way. And it's like, you get to your 30s, you're like, mm, yeah, life doesn't work that way.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Shut it down, dude.

• 35:39Mark Manson?

  It's way more complicated than that.

• 35:43Mark Manson?

  For people out there who wanna do some sort of public facing career, wanna have an audience of some sort, what does a healthy relationship look like? Like, what are the things not to do and what are the things to do?

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Having this like big data pool of creators that I call my friends is like, you see which ones are more stressed out than others.

• 36:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  And I've often found that the creators who are the least stressed out are the ones that don't need it to work. They don't need it to make a ton of money.

• 36:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  They, this isn't their one way to make money. It's usually the ones that have like a business and are also, you know, happen to be creators and have a channel that works. But with the second. The creating and the ad revenue and the brand deals becomes your mainstream of income. You run into this conundrum where it's, again, I think that's where the codependency develops. It's like this thing needs to work and so you become obsessed with these views, you know? And so I have this big newsletter audience and I'm like, the one thing I cannot do, the one mistake I cannot repeat is to make this my source of income. Cause then it it just fucks with how I speak to the audience.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  It fucks with like the my relationship with creativity. Um, so down the line, I can see myself, you know, having a business. That's, you know, kind of unrelated to the creator part of it, but also, you know, getting to speak my mind through writing or or speaking. And when I think about, you know, how you started this podcast with the six to 17 year olds and how they all want to be YouTubers. I hear that and I'm like, dude, the like, if the mental health crisis is already bad, imagine how much worse.

• 37:29Mark Manson?

  There's a lot of really interesting research around what they call intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. So basically the difference is intrinsic motivation is you're doing this for yourself. You know, you really care deeply about it, or it's just fun, enjoyable. You want to be good at it. Extrinsic motivation is you get paid for it. It's like external incentives pushing you to do something. And what the research finds is that external motivation is really, really good for non-creative tasks. So if you're a plumber or an accountant or data cruncher, whatever, you know, the the external rewards are like very motivating and they feel very good. You know, it's like I fixed 20 toilets, so I get this much money. Like it feels good at the end of the day.

• 38:13Mark Manson?

  What they found is that external motivators kill creative work, like destroy the motivation for creative work. I mean, I feel like people in the creator in economy talk about it a lot more just because the nature of this industry is that we're very open and vulnerable with our audiences. There's a permutation of that conversation that I've run into. Everybody I know in TV and film, I've had that conversation with. Everybody I know in music, I've had that conversation with. Do you write the song that you know is gonna get more streams? Or do you write the song you want to write? Do you pitch the TV pilot that? You really care about, or do you pitch the TV pilot that is probably gonna get picked up by the production company? I hear it everywhere.

• 38:56Mark Manson?

  It's ever-present in any creative line of work. And the closest thing I've ever heard to any solution comes from Hollywood, which is, there's a saying in Hollywood, which is, "You do one for them and one for you." You know, so you do, you do like one Marvel movie that's gonna make a shitload of money. So then the studio agrees to greenlight your passion project that's gonna lose a bunch of money. And then you just go back and forth.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, for you creatively, has that been the case? Like, have you felt stifled by the extrinsic motivation?

• 39:28Mark Manson?

  Uh, yes. Yeah, so I felt that a lot in, interestingly, I felt that a lot in traditional media. So, and I think the reason-

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Like with the movie and stuff?

• 39:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah, TV, film, and books. I feel that a lot more. I feel a lot more stress and pressure and anxiety doing those projects than I do doing podcasts, YouTube, newsletter, blog. Over many, many years, I think I've developed a very good relationship with my audience, where I feel at liberty to try things that don't work. Because you know, when a YouTube channel blows up in a year, you probably don't feel a whole lot of liberty to put out a shitty video. Like, you're worried that the audience isn't gonna forgive you for it. They've only known you for a year, they've only watched a few videos. Whereas I've been around long enough, and my core audience has been around long enough, that I know it's like, if I put out a bad newsletter, or a bad video, or something like, life's gonna go on, it's gonna be okay.

• 40:26Mark Manson?

  I've got this like massive library of content. And so, at this point in my career, it actually feels very liberating to have the freedom to try things, to fail at things. It's like, let's try this new format on YouTube, or like, let's try this crazy idea on the podcast. And if it works, great, if it doesn't work, then like, whatever. It's fine, we'll just iterate and try something else. When you get a big contract from a movie studio, or a book publisher- There's no leeway for that. There's no like, oh, why don't you try a few things and see if they work? It's like, no, no, no, we're writing you a fat fucking check. This better be a hit.

• 41:02Mark Manson?

  Or there's not gonna be another one. And that feels really daunting as a creative person. That's when the pressure comes in. And so, yeah, strangely, I actually feel, I feel happier and healthier in this world.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Wild.

• 41:18Mark Manson?

  Which is weird.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  So crazy to me. As you're saying that, I'm like, wow, you feel, I think that's maybe why I love your content on YouTube so much is because it feels very, almost like innocently free.

• 41:30Mark Manson?

  And to your point, I don't need the money.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  And you don't need the money.

• 41:33Mark Manson?

  So I don't, I don't care.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:36Mark Manson?

  If I spend thousands of dollars throwing a dude out of a plane in a chicken suit.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:42Mark Manson?

  And it doesn't make any money. I don't really care.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Which is an amazing place to be in. But it's even before, like, two minutes before getting here, I got a call from a friend who's a YouTuber. And we, you know, I was kind of updating on my life and he was updating me on his and he was like, dude, I'm just kind of sick of the algorithm. I'm sick of that. And so you know what I'm gonna do? It's like, I'm gonna go for three months to Sardinia. And just do pottery. I'm not gonna record it. I'm not gonna like make videos on it, whatever.

• 42:13Mark Manson?

  It's perfect.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  I just wanna get good at pottery. And I was like, that is better than any video idea I've ever heard in my whole frickin' life. Cause that's.

• 42:21Mark Manson?

  You do one for them, one for you.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's the one for you. And I think the balance is that is like, whatever that looks like, your version of it. It's like, what hobby do you not post on Instagram?

• 42:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Like, I really love salsa dancing. I wanna invest more time in salsa dancing. I'm not gonna make videos about salsa dancing.

• 42:39Mark Manson?

  Totally. But, cause it would spoil it.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it would ruin it. Cause then you're like, God, I gotta get so much better at salsa dancing. Otherwise, they're gonna stop watching my salsa dance videos.

• 42:46Mark Manson?

  So as you know, like, I'm a huge gamer.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  I thought you were gonna say salsa dance.

• 42:50Mark Manson?

  No, no, no. Terrible salsa dance, terrible. But huge gamer. And I'm actually good friends with a guy here in LA who works for a major video game company. And he, he and I hang out a lot. We like, we're surf buddies. And so whenever we hang out, we start talking about video games. And it was funny, like when we first became friends, we would have these like long, deep conversations about like video game design and certain choices that different game publishers make and why this was a good choice and this was a bad choice and why this was a great game and that was a bad game. And, and he told me a few times, he's like, dude, you need to start like a gaming YouTube channel. This is, some of the stuff you say is like so much more interesting than like 90% of the people in

• 43:35Mark Manson?

  the industry, like everybody in the industry would watch your channel. I'm like, never, I will never fucking do that.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:42Mark Manson?

  Because it's mine, it's, it's, it's, I would never risk spoiling.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Mark Manson?

  The, my favorite thing to do with my free time.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Can I ask you something? The video that you had with your wife.

• 43:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Was there a moment for you of like, maybe I shouldn't show this part of my life? Or were you pretty free to?

• 44:01Mark Manson?

  I think at this point, we're pretty free.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:03Mark Manson?

  The funny thing with my wife is, is we tried to work together at one point. Cause she's also a creator. She's very good with video and design. And this was years ago, this was before we were married. She, uh, she started, she started working, like we started working together for a few months. We fought more in those two months than like our entire rest of our relationship combined. And then finally, finally after that project was done, I was like, we're never working together again, ever, ever. You're amazing, but like this is, I, I can't, I can't deal with this.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:35Mark Manson?

  It's, I need separation.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:39Mark Manson?

  So, yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, that's the big lesson. I think the big one I'm taking away is, uh, I think not just in, with work and content, I think just in life in general is setting these boundaries.

• 44:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  You know, and learning that I don't have to be everything to everybody, I think is the biggest thing.

• 44:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Which again, goes back to like childhood stuff and childhood work and resolving a lot of that. I think my hesitation with doing podcasts, even in releasing the book, is don't know how inspiring it is to say that I don't have it, I don't have the answer and I don't have it figured out. In fact, I feel like the majority of my life has been one giant performance. And I like, don't actually even know who I fully am. Even the end of the book, I mean, you know, where I'm like, literally it ends with me saying, I don't know what I want, so I'm gonna go and try and find it.

• 45:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  And so there's this feeling of. Like when you were asking about shame and stuff, I think there's shame around that because I feel like being a public figure and having a platform and stuff, you should have something to say and have like, guys, I'm just fucking lost.

• 45:51Mark Manson?

  Just like look directly to the camera. I have no fucking clue.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Somebody send help.

• 45:58Mark Manson?

  I love your story because to millions of people, I mean, you're, yours is just very public because of the path that you happen to take in life. But millions of fucking people go through the same thing. They get to their 30s and 40s and they're like, I've been performing for 20 years. I have no fucking clue of who I am or what I want or what I like. And I hear from them all the time, get emails every single week from people.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Really?

• 46:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah, all the time.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Each group?

• 46:31Mark Manson?

  All the time. It's very common and it's, it comes back. It's just, I see it as, I think it's a side effect of some sort of codependent relationship. Most common is romantic relationship, but I hear it from people. You know, it's the lawyer who worked 90 hours a week for 15 years. And then he developed crippling depression and hated his life and quit. And now is like, who am I?

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:01Mark Manson?

  What do I want? You know, it's, there's so many permutations of it.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:05Mark Manson?

  I think as long as you're just looking at for what's right for you, hopefully that can give people the courage to do the same thing.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  And I think the, I think being in a codependent relationship of any kind, there is that sense of martyrdom.

• 47:19Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  You know, you're sacrificing yourself for this person or this thing. And so to start asking yourself what you want feels very selfish. And I at least went through this whole process just to get to the point of being allowed to ask myself what I wanted.

• 47:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  You know, like I had to work through the idea that I even could. And so, yeah, I think it's a.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yes. There's your inspirational.

• 47:48Mark Manson?

  It's like, I've suffered intensely for years and I still don't know what's right or wrong.

• 47:57Mark Manson?

  He'd put that on a, like a motivational poster.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Too true.

• 48:05Mark Manson?

  How was writing the book?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  I'm very happy I wrote it, but I hated the majority of it. Yeah, I hated it. Like, I actually hated the actual book itself.

• 48:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  I had a terrible relationship with it.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Cause like, I was like, look at what you're doing to me. Like, I want to leave this thing. And the book felt like this, this puzzle that I had to figure out in order to exit. And so for the first year and a half, it was like this intense battle with it where I was like, I just don't want to do this. But I, this is my only way out. And so I felt like I had no choice. And there came this moment last year where I'd written a draft that I wasn't very happy with. And that I'd sent to other readers I really respected for feedback and they were like, ah, it's not that good. I was like, dude, I just can't fucking do this. I'm, I literally, I have to go.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  And so I called everybody on the team and I was like, I'm leaving. I appreciate you all. I can't do this.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  And then Amar was the only one that was like, no, you're, you can do this. Like, I'm not letting you give up right now. And I was like, this motherfucker. It's like, this guy is just like ruining my soul.

• 49:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  But after that conversation with him, there was this switch where I was like, like, if I'm going to do this, it has to be a choice. I can't feel forced to do this anymore. Like, I have to decide. From the, like, the bottom of my heart, like, this is what I want to do. And as soon as I made that decision, I, it completely transferred into this, like, much more fun project that I got to do with other people. So I invited one of my best friends, who's a really great writer and the fourth co-founder of Yes Theory,

• 49:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  to come work on it with me, Darren. And so it became this collaborative project and, you know, I went to Montreal where he lived and we, I got to see where it all started and. So I, that's when the process, like the processing actually really started to happen. And I, I started to get excited to share and even remembering the good times. Cause it's so easy when you're trying to get out of a thing to remember only the shit times. Whether it's like a business or a divorce or whatever, it's like, this was, the whole thing was shit. The whole thing was shit. Literally, that's the first draft was like, this was all shit, blah, blah, blah.

• 50:30Mark Manson?

  I hate everyone. Goodbye.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Literally, I could never talk to you again. And then with Darren, it was this like, wow, this was amazing. You know, what the fuck? This is so unusual that this all happened and so serendipitous. And I think it, it really got reflected in the book. Like the original drafts were like actually quite dark, full of anxiety and so much family stuff and like blaming everybody. And then the final draft was like, wow, gratitude? Yes, it was really hard and this is why I'm leaving, but holy shit, like look at all these moments that we got to live in the lessons with them. It's interesting. I've shared the book with several creators and I think almost more than any other people, like especially YouTubers.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  The feedback's been the most like almost surreal, positive for me. Cause I'm like, I think I'm describing the experience that they never get to share or read in a book, you know? I think like, there's like athletes and celebrities and stuff who have shared their memoirs or whatever. But I've never read like a YouTuber talking about what it's like to build a

• 51:36Mark Manson?

  That's true.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  A YouTube channel or a movement behind the scenes.

• 51:38Mark Manson?

  I can't think of one, yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think like to be able to have that relate to other creators, I think is really cool.

• 51:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  And so I think more than anybody, that's who I'm, I'm excited to get to read it is.

• 51:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  My fellow, my fellow content creators. Like you're not alone.

• 51:55Mark Manson?

  Like what is the success function of you guys as a team? The founders of Yes, Siri were like the Avengers.

• 52:04Mark Manson?

  What is each person's superpower? And why, why does it work? Between all of you?

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're very different. I think that's the key. Very different people. Thomas is very, is the most introverted and the storyteller. Obsessed with storytelling. There was even a moment when I started filming with the boys again. A few months ago. We took this taxi from London to Morocco. It's like paying a taxi driver $10,000. And they picked me up in Paris and we drove down to Beldue, France. And it was my first time being back and I was like, wow, this is all epic. But also I get to see why it's actually quite tiring. You know, because you're filming and you're traveling and all this stuff. And we get to the hotel at like 10:00 PM. And we're in the lobby and we're just kicking it, you know, having a late dinner. And Thomas goes up to the room.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  He's like, I'll see you guys later. Goes up to the room and I'm rooming with him. And I go up to the hotel room like 30 minutes later. And he's just in his boxers, hunched over his laptop, editing this specific scene from the thing that we'd filmed the day before.

• 53:11Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Like finding, not even edit, like finding the perfect song for the scene. So someone with that level of obsession for storytelling.

• 53:19Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  And that moment I was like, wow, this guy's just like a born storyteller. And then Amar, Amar is like, um, I think he had like a creative savant. Like he's just a pure artist, pure innocent child artistry. And then I'd say for me is almost like this obsession with community. Very much focused on like, how do we engage the community? How do we grow it? How do we get them to connect?

• 53:43Mark Manson?

  Which makes sense because while you were up at 2:00 AM talking to the people you don't want to talk to, Thomas was probably editing video.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And Amar was scheming some big idea.

• 53:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. So all of this is gonna wrap up in two months, all of it. LA, book, Yes Theory, everything. What are your expectations on the other side of that? If you have any? And what are your plans?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 54:12Mark Manson?

  Because one thing, one reason I ask too is just to, because there are so many like monumental life shifts happening simultaneously, I think. And you definitely seem to have this, which is completely understand, there's nothing wrong with it, but you definitely seem to have this mentality of like, just get to the finish line.

• 54:31Mark Manson?

  It's right there, I'm almost there, just get there.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Don't fuck it up.

• 54:33Mark Manson?

  And I think there's, it's just human nature to kind of assume like, okay, once I get across the finish line, things will ease up and be easier. And I think because so many massive identity changes are happening simultaneously, you might actually get to the other side of it and feel really lost again. And really kind of like,

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am.

• 54:58Mark Manson?

  Fuck, what do I do with myself? So.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, to give you kind of an example that's related to this, is I dated quite a bit during the eight years of Yes Theory, but I never had like a long-term girlfriend. And I was always convinced like, wow, once I have a, like a really healthy relationship with the girl I love,

• 55:20Speaker 01

  it'll all be amazing, you know?

• 55:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Figure it out. And so then I met this amazing girl, started dating, she became my girlfriend. And there was a moment about two months in where I was laying in bed with her, she'd gone to bed. And I got up and I went to my porch. And I just kind of sat there and I was like, holy shit, this is not going to solve my problem.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  This is not going to do it. And this was supposed to be the thing, like the woman was supposed to save me.

• 55:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah, right.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  From myself.

• 55:52Mark Manson?

  Of course.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  And so I, yeah, I think having had that experience, I'm aware that the finish line is not really it. Like, there's probably going to be a down and I'm kind of prepared for it, you know, I'm kind of expecting it.

• 56:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  But at the same time, going back to kind of what Morgan Housel says in his book and on the podcast is like, freedom of choice is such a massive piece of joy, of happiness. And I find that that's what it'll give me more than anything is the freedom to choose. And obviously it'll come with a lot of anxiety as I'm making my choices, but I think once that starts to develop, like it'll settle a little bit. That's the assumption. Maybe I just completely fricking.

• 56:38Mark Manson?

  Are you planning to take some of it just as vacation?

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I'm, yeah, I'm gonna travel.

• 56:44Mark Manson?

  Cool.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Gonna.

• 56:45Mark Manson?

  No cameras?

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, not a single camera, dude. Not even my phone.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Dude, oh my God. Literally, I have this visual of being on a beach, which is so cliche, but just not even with a drink in my hand, just like this.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  On a just a big batch of sand and being like, oh my God, I fucking did it.

• 57:08Mark Manson?

  That'd be a sick drone shot. We could have like an intro and yeah, it's gonna be great.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  We'll start a channel.

• 57:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah, we'll start a channel. Matt's day off. Yeah, it's gonna be amazing.

• 57:23Mark Manson?

  Never ends. It never ends. Never ends. All right. Well, you've seen the show before, so you know that we finish every episode with a round of fuck, marry, kill. I know I don't have to explain this game to you. We'll start with an easier one, which is fuck, marry, kill, YouTube, book writing, podcasting.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Kill, unfortunately, I'm sorry, YouTube. Marry, book writing.

• 57:49Mark Manson?

  Really?

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I think.

• 57:51Mark Manson?

  Even after all the pain it put you through?

• 57:55Speaker 01

  I mean, dude, holding your own book.

• 57:57Mark Manson?

  It's pretty, it's pretty amazing.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  The coolest thing of all time.

• 58:00Mark Manson?

  There's an old saying, which is painters love to paint, writers love having written.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:06Mark Manson?

  Which I have experienced with every single book I've done. It's, it's like, you're just.

• 58:11Mark Manson?

  Climbing through the shit and it's kind of like, you know, it's that scene in Shawshank Redemption, where he's like climbing through the sewage.

• 58:21Mark Manson?

  And then he comes out into the rain and he's just like.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Andy Dufresne climbed through 500 yards.

• 58:28Mark Manson?

  Pure shit. Yeah. That's, that's book writing. That's, that's exactly what.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  But, I mean, I'm, I'm not married, but marriages I've heard of are hard.

• 58:37Mark Manson?

  True.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  So there's a lot of shit eating in that too.

• 58:40Mark Manson?

  True.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 58:41Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  I feel like that's the marriage I would kind of accept.

• 58:43Mark Manson?

  All right.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  And then podcasting, I'd fuck, but I, I, I do enjoy podcasting.

• 58:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  But again, it's the camera thing for me. Like I, I think I, I would.

• 58:52Mark Manson?

  Be audio only.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Probably be audio only.

• 58:54Mark Manson?

  Got you. Got you.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:56Mark Manson?

  Okay. Next one.

• 58:59Mark Manson?

  You've got to see this coming. Fuck, marry, kill, Thomas.

• 59:04Mark Manson?

  Darren.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 59:09Mark Manson?

  It's a forced choice. So it's, guys, it's my fault. I'm making him do it. The forced choice. Don't hold it against them.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  I feel married to Darren. That's the thing. Cause we wrote the book together.

• 59:19Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  And that became kind of a marriage. So I'd marry Darren.

• 59:22Mark Manson?

  You guys have kind of like ridden off into the sunset.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Kind of. Yeah. And I even filmed the last episode together.

• 59:27Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Just us two. So married Darren, fucker, kill Thomas from Mara. I never thought I'd be asked this question.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  All right, Matt.

• 59:38Mark Manson?

  I mean, whatever, whichever one you choose, you better have a good explanation.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  I think I, I think.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  How do I say this without sounding like I'm fully.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Like, yeah.

• 1:00:00Mark Manson?

  I just love how much you're squirming right now. You're suddenly shifting a lot more in your chair.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  I probably.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  I have a threesome.

• 1:00:11Mark Manson?

  A threesome.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  One last big hurrah.

• 1:00:17Mark Manson?

  There you go. One big hurrah. The, the final video.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:00:21Mark Manson?

  For a different video site.

• 1:00:25Mark Manson?

  Awesome. Matt.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Brother.

• 1:00:27Mark Manson?

  It's been a pleasure, dude.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Same here, dude.

• 1:00:28Mark Manson?

  For coming by.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Appreciate you for everything.

• 1:00:30Mark Manson?

  Great seeing you as always.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  And honestly, big shout outs to you for, I mean, throughout this process.

• 1:00:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  You've been so amazing and so supportive.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  So just to have you by my side for it has been instrumental.

• 1:00:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah, dude, I mean, it takes a lot of balls to do both things you did. It takes a lot of balls to build a YouTube channel that big. And it takes a lot of balls to leave. So a lot of respect for your courage and prioritizing yourself. It's something that's very hard to do. A lot of people are not able to do it. So excited to see what's next for you. And go enjoy that beach.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 1:01:04Mark Manson?

  No phones, no cameras.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I'll send you pictures, but.

• 1:01:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, don't, don't send me anything.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  You won't hear from me.

• 1:01:10Mark Manson?

  Just come back one day and tell me how it was.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Just a big beard and a tan.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Awesome, man. Much love.

• 1:01:17Mark Manson?

  That's it for this episode of Subtle Art, Not Giving a Fuck Podcast. Matt wrote, Talk to Strangers. Is there a subtitle?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  The Yes Theory Story.

• 1:01:26Mark Manson?

  Talk to Strangers, The Yes Theory Story. It should be out everywhere when this episode goes up. So check it out. Bookstores, link in the description below. And obviously, check out Yes Theory. They're fucking amazing. They're still carrying the torch. I love those guys. I never know how to end these things. So like and subscribe, leave a review, do something, buy a book, go outside, talk to your friends, call your mom. I'll see you next week.