482 - Similar Different Problems

This week, Georgia and Karen cover the Alamo Christian Foundation. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:07Georgia Hardstark?

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• 0:13Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Big savings and more gifts than ever before.

• 0:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, when you buy a select Ryobi kit, you get another tool free.

• 0:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Find your green at ryobitoles.com/murder.

• 0:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's R-Y-O-B-I. Ryobi, only at The Home Depot. Goodbye.

• 0:38Speaker 02

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• 1:07Speaker 03

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:20Speaker 04

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• 2:04Speaker 04

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 2:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 2:25Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 2:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Someone's got a new haircut.

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the place where we trim our bangs an hour before we go on video.

• 2:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, did you hand, you personally hand trimmed your own bangs?

• 2:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, and I have a sink at home full of hair to prove it.

• 2:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I like it. You went down the center.

• 2:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I did like it, because I've been growing it out. So like, what am I gonna do? And then I'm like, oh, I hate it. And so I just went.

• 2:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You did curtain bangs?

• 2:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Yeah. Did it work?

• 2:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it did.

• 2:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I used the razor scissors from when I was in beauty school.

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:54Georgia Hardstark?

  In 1999.

• 2:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you remember your razor scissor lesson? What was the trick of razor scissors?

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, get, get them, like, make sure you have a new razor in there and not one from 1998.

• 3:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is?

• 3:05Georgia Hardstark?

  What you had.

• 3:07Karen Kilgariff?

  A nice dull razor.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  You can hear the hair.

• 3:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Close your eyes.

• 3:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You can hear the hair cutting.

• 3:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You can hear each hair individually being sliced.

• 3:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you know how much I can't have people use razors on my hair? It goes insane.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the, because it, oh, your hair goes crazy.

• 3:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The hair goes so crazy and it's not, you know, there's like, I follow a bunch of hairdressers on TikTok.

• 3:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Stylists? Is there a word for that? And a lot of them use those razors.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'm like, I don't, my hair would do the weirdest shit.

• 3:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I know what you mean, because it can't be thinner. It'll just, Vince very like, carefully said, "Don't you have someone who does that for you?"

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And then ran down the hall in his socks at top speed.

• 3:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I laughed so hard. It was just like such a careful thing. And it's like, yeah, but obviously you've never been a fucking teenage girl, because.

• 3:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, because it's not that hard. And it doesn't, it looks good.

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 4:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know how much better they would do it.

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, you're get, you're into, you're getting into a real curtain.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It's got like a.

• 4:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Curtain bangs, center part. Are you gonna go into a Farrah Fawcett era this summer?

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I could. And then I have like the 80s shirt to go with it.

• 4:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yeah. Span those decades.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  My goal in beauty is to look like Janet from Freeze Company.

• 4:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna say Janet from Three's Company. And then I thought you would think it was insulting.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Why? She's gorgeous.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  She's gorgeous. I don't know. I maybe, I thought it was too old. So I was just like, file it, file it away.

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my fucking style. That and then a little bit of Mrs. Roper thrown in. You know what I mean? Just like a smooch.

• 4:41Karen Kilgariff?

  A chunky necklace.

• 4:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. A mu mu.

• 4:44Karen Kilgariff?

  We were just talking about the Ropers on Do You Need A Ride?

• 4:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, how funny.

• 4:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Not to cross promote.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's weird.

• 4:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's the truth.

• 4:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Man.

• 4:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We're like fucking psychically connected.

• 4:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's true.

• 4:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Psycholique connected.

• 4:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Psycholique connected.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of, I have a birthday present for you.

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's see it.

• 5:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want it?

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck yeah.

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, to close your eyes.

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 5:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Close your eyes.

• 5:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Hold on.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta tell you when.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 5:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, ready?

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Open your eyes.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  What, the Italian hand?

• 5:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's an, explain it. It's an Italian hand on a like swing thing. So it does the Italian hand gesture.

• 5:28Karen Kilgariff?

  With the Italian flag.

• 5:29Georgia Hardstark?

  With the Italian flag.

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's a, it's a constant Italian hand gesture of mamma mia, abundanza pizza for one. What is that? I bet there's a name for this Italian.

• 5:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry. Liana Schillacce, do you want to tell us what the name of this is?

• 5:45Speaker 05

  No.

• 5:46Georgia Hardstark?

  On the spot. Sorry.

• 5:49Karen Kilgariff?

  You claim to be Italian.

• 5:51Speaker 05

  You can't expose me like this.

• 5:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Got you. That was just a big got you for.

• 5:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah, yeah, exactly. This is incredible. Hopefully we're clear on cameras. Cause that is, I wish it was the kind of thing where you rocked it once and it does it for infinitely.

• 6:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like the clacky things.

• 6:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That's an incredible gift. Thank you so much.

• 6:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Happy birthday. Do you also want to? I have another one that's, that might be insulting, like Janet from Three's Company might be insulting. But I bought a self-help book and I accidentally got two of them. So I was gonna say that maybe we should read them together and we can have like a self-help book club.

• 6:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I think the people have been waiting for that for 10 years. Let's do it.

• 6:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I saw this one and I was like-

• 6:28Karen Kilgariff?

  But is it gonna be confrontational?

• 6:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it was like, I got it because I don't cry and I need to like, I want to feel feelings and stuff. And so it's not, it's called emotional agility.

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 6:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Get unstuck, embrace change and thrive and work in life by Susan David, PhD.

• 6:42Karen Kilgariff?

  We all need to do all of those things. That's great.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So there we go.

• 6:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Alright.

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So let's not read it.

• 6:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So we're gonna do, we're gonna not read it and we're gonna shut our emotions down and we're not gonna change. I think we should read it and I think we should do like a, that could be a fan cult video of like, we read a self-help book and this is what Karen thinks you should take from, away from it. This is what Georgia thinks you should take away from it.

• 7:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's highlight important things in it for us and then we can like, see if we got anything the same. And I just looked at it and realized that maybe I bought it because there's a cookie with sprinkles on the cover of it. But I still need emotional agility, so.

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  What if we picked cookies to, to eat with every book club?

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. That was started strong.

• 7:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I was thinking about other stuff while I was pitching that.

• 7:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I kind of got distracted by myself.

• 7:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you'll pick the next one, so it can be whatever you want it to be.

• 7:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I like this though. We should really do a self-help book club.

• 7:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's great.

• 7:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, find one that you think will work for you and like, because obviously we both have-

• 7:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Different problems?

• 7:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Similar, different problems, but-

• 7:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I like this. And if I get emotionally agile enough, I can land an Italian man. Could you imagine?

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Manja. Is that it?

• 7:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Pizza for one.

• 7:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Manja.

• 7:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's um, it's the thing where like, in Inglourious Basterds, the guys that he pretends, he gets to pretend are Italian, but they don't speak. So the one guy, he has, somebody asks him a question in Italian and he just goes-

• 8:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Does she have a baby who does it too?

• 8:10Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 8:10Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a baby who does it on TikTok. It's fucking cute.

• 8:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a brand new that, it's just a weird thing that Santa's doing?

• 8:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, like toddler, so it is weird still, but it's like, who were you in your last life, kind of a thing.

• 8:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So the toddler means it?

• 8:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and it's not, he's not Italian. It's very weird.

• 8:25Karen Kilgariff?

  What does it mean? I guess Italians from everywhere, including our Italian couples friends that used to come and see us live. Remember the Italians? Maybe they could write in and tell us what, what does the pinched finger gesture mean?

• 8:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Kevoy?

• 8:38Speaker 05

  Kevoy.

• 8:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Kevoy. Which means what?

• 8:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It means like, what do you want? What do you take?

• 8:42Karen Kilgariff?

  What do you want?

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you doing?

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, it's bad?

• 8:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's like this piece of shit.

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's like, come on, what do you want?

• 8:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But don't people do it like?

• 8:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Like delicious, or they, but they kiss it when it's delicious?

• 8:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a different thing. Chef's kiss.

• 8:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Chef's kiss.

• 8:59Karen Kilgariff?

  The fingers are not like a beautiful, it's like a, come on.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You, yeah, okay, it's like, how dare you? Okay, well, that's perfect for you. When you just put on your desk and just whenever someone comes into your office, you could just...

• 9:12Karen Kilgariff?

  If only that would work.

• 9:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you watch the Vince Vaughn?

• 9:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Love that.

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Show where he like, never mind.

• 9:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Say it.

• 9:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's stupid.

• 9:21Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't want to talk about Italy anymore?

• 9:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to.

• 9:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you watch that Vince Vaughn show where he became Italian?

• 9:28Georgia Hardstark?

  What do you got?

• 9:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, personally? I don't think anything except for to say that it is now pool season again. It's hot enough consistently in LA where the swimming has begun again. And I have been waiting and waiting for this. And it was so weirdly mild to not warm for so long.

• 9:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're in now.

• 9:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's very exciting. I've started gardening because it's like nice till like 8 o'clock.

• 9:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 9:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, in the evening.

• 9:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, warm at night.

• 9:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, nice glass of wine and get my hands all dirty. It's been fun.

• 10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Good, yeah, that's a nice one.

• 10:03Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 10:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Fine.

• 10:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Look, oh, I have an Instagram comment to read that I really liked that I think you'll like too.

• 10:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's hear it.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So last week you did the story of the shooting in Arizona and how a lot of unhoused people got shot. And we discussed that and, you know, like, let's have some fucking empathy, everyone. So someone on my favorite runner Instagram, whose name is feral underscore forest underscore witch, feral forest witch, said this, "Thank you for what you said today about humanizing unhoused people. I was once an unhoused, pregnant 19-year-old, living in my truck and working as a merchandiser at Macy's and a receptionist at a day spa." I would sleep in my truck, do a quick Coors bath at a gas station, and change into my work clothes every morning.

• 10:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Occasionally, I could couch surf for the trade of cleaning an apartment. No one at work knew I was unhoused. A miscarried scare brought me to the hospital and I called my mom. Thankfully, the baby was OK, and I decided to keep him and moved back in with my parents. That baby is now 24 and an astrobiologist. Holy shit. At 24, forever. An astrobiologist, you did something right. You did something, like what a contribution to the world.

• 11:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like basically saying that baby is now a rocket scientist.

• 11:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 11:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Essentially.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, exactly. And a loving partner to my wonderful son-in-law. But I'll never forget that we began life together in a Chevy S10. Like, that's how, like, yeah, you're coworkers. You just don't know anyone's situation.

• 11:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And these days, these days, where everyone has two and three jobs because the minimum wage hasn't been raised in 100 years. And the billionaires are keeping all of the money. It's like.

• 11:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And the cost of living is just insane. Not matching up with what people are being paid. It's fucking, it's, it's abhorrent. We should be so humiliated and horrified by ourselves in the US that we are treated.

• 12:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Rise up, rise up, rise up, rise up.

• 12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Like.

• 12:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's over.

• 12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck billionaires.

• 12:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and also just it cannot sustain this way. It's they're, they're pushing it to the tipping point.

• 12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 12:20Karen Kilgariff?

  In the, in that idea, that bill that just got passed, it's like cutting Medicaid, cutting, like, it's just stripping out any, anything that's left to give people.

• 12:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And who's getting it, I wonder?

• 12:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, where's that money going to? I mean, it's just.

• 12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy.

• 12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we do a donation?

• 12:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 12:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, let's give a $10,000 donation.

• 12:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it.

• 12:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So, no kid hungry. Uh, who we love giving to, go to nokidhungry.org if you want to help out as well. I mean,

• 12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  We just do the basics. You could give $5.

• 12:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna give $10,000. Try to move some money toward children who are waking up in a Ford F10.

• 13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Karen Kilgariff?

  With their mom trying to get by.

• 13:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Their mom's working two jobs and raising kids, like.

• 13:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not right.

• 13:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Y'all, please, uh, do what you can. And this is all for the murderinos when we donate. So thank you guys so much.

• 13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. We donate in your names. There's a lot of good in this world and there's a lot of good we can do if you don't have money to do good with. What else can you do? Just ask yourself that every day. You'll probably be pretty surprised with, um, the answers you get all around you.

• 13:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause the need is there. And also people need to be good to each other. The need within you to give is just as important.

• 13:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 13:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 13:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 13:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's great.

• 13:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't have that, then blood is fine, too.

• 13:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Then give your blood and get a cookie and try not to faint.

• 13:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I have that blood that's like, you know, oh, can you, that crazy blood? That's just like.

• 13:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Super rare?

• 13:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Super powerful blood.

• 13:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you, does your blood cure cancers in others?

• 13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It does.

• 13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I've heard of your blood.

• 13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Just like that.

• 13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Congratulations.

• 13:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They have like a, you know, in Antarctica, there's a place that has just my blood.

• 14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  In case the apocalypse comes.

• 14:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You should sell it on Etsy. You made it.

• 14:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Blood on Etsy.

• 14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, we have an exciting announcement for you guys. So I guess, yeah, let's just fucking get into it, right?

• 14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's get into it.

• 14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  If you're a fast forwarder, don't do it yet, because we got a really fun announcement. Fast forwarder? No. Skipper.

• 14:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. We never called them fast forwarders before. This is exciting news for the real ones. The Fan Cult, which is our fan club, we just named it the Fan Cult. We just gave it a major upgrade.

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we've been working on this. This is so exciting. You guys are gonna love it. It's got so much stuff in it and now we have added so much more. So to begin with, there's currently an archive of almost 200 mini mini episodes and five years of bonus video just waiting. So if you're, if you're not a member yet, that's like the first thing.

• 14:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's already sitting there.

• 14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But now we have broken the Fan Cult into two tiers. So there's tier one, which is called Urna Cult. That's $5 a month and that you get weekly bonus audio and video, early access to live show tickets, access to our Discord, which is a new thing. I was told it's something like the internet version of a fresh salon.

• 15:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It's very fun.

• 15:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And then tier two is call your dad and you guys have been wanting this. This is the thing that everyone's been waiting for. It's just $10 a month and you get everything from tier one plus a $20 merch credit. And here's the very exciting thing. You get ad free episodes of the podcast and videos.

• 15:26Karen Kilgariff?

  People have been asking for ad free podcasts since we left Stitcher back in 1974. And you wanted it. Now we have it for you.

• 15:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's been very hard. We've been trying to figure out a way and this is it.

• 15:37Karen Kilgariff?

  We're doing it for ourselves. So if you sign up for tier two now, you will get ad free episodes of this podcast. And they upload to Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. So they just go there automatically.

• 15:48Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a lot of like little details that have been hard to track down and we've done it. And if you sign up before Friday, June 13th, Friday, the 13th, you'll get the fan cult relaunch discount. So that's tier one for $3.33 a month or tier two for $8 a month. We're not trying to fucking gouge anyone here. We're just trying to put up some exclusive content and stuff.

• 16:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. And for, and to prove that we're not trying to gouge anybody, you can either pay monthly at those prices. Or you go yearly, you'll save even more.

• 16:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 16:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, if you are a current member of the fan cult, you are automatically moved to the $5 tier at your original $3.33 price. So don't worry.

• 16:28Georgia Hardstark?

  We're not, yeah, nobody freak out here. This is a good thing. I know people like to, you know, people don't like change and they get scared, but this is actually really fucking cool. And I'm excited about it.

• 16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So go to fancult.supercast.com to join the cult or just go to myfavoritemurder.com. There's links there and yay, welcome to the fan cult. It's a fucking really fun place to be, I think.

• 16:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And on top of that, we want to tell you about all of the highlights from our, uh, network. It's called the Exactly Right Podcast Network.

• 16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  So this week on Bananas, Kurt and Scotty cover hot topics like attractive psychopaths and a woman falling into a crevasse to get her phone.

• 17:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Over on Ghosted, Roz welcomes the luminous actor and kindred spirit, James Scully.

• 17:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And then on I Said No Gifts, Bridger does his best to stay composed when Tim Kalpakis barges in with a frickin' gift.

• 17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And this week on this podcast, I'll kill you, the errands tackle, toxic shock syndrome.

• 17:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa, okay. And then most importantly, obviously. Hot dog summer has arrived, straight from the runways of Milan, pulled from the elite couture shops of Paris. We bring you the hot dog collection of our merch again.

• 17:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, we're re-releasing hot dog ladies muscle tee, the hot dog unisex tee, and a hot dog sticker. So chic, it's so sexy, it's been banned on six continents.

• 17:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I wear that hot dog ladies muscle tee to workout in, and it boosts me. I mean, I don't want to make any promises, but it's like-

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You can draw power from it.

• 17:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. So also, this design is by Sammy Rich, so go to exactlyrightstore.com to grab yours today or tomorrow. No, no rush.

• 18:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, don't, please don't.

• 18:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Unless they sell out.

• 18:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, those hot dogs will sell out.

• 18:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 18:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 18:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 18:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 18:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 19:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in "MFM" at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 19:11Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 19:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. It's the season of green.

• 19:17Georgia Hardstark?

  This year, Ryobi has the deals you've been waiting for, and the perfect gift for everyone on your list.

• 19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Stick vacuums for that post-holiday mess, leaf blowers for tidying up the yard, speakers, fans, drills, nailers, and even snow blowers. Ryobi has it all.

• 19:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Big savings and more gifts than ever before.

• 19:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, when you buy a select Ryobi kit, you get another tool free.

• 19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Find your green at ryobitoles.com/murder.

• 19:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's R-Y-O-B-I, Ryobi, only at The Home Depot.

• 19:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

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• 20:33Karen Kilgariff?

  of a website or domain. Goodbye.

• 20:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Now, this is the story of a cult that I had never heard of.

• 20:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 20:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I know you love a cult.

• 20:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I really do.

• 20:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So maybe you know this one, but I watched the documentary about it and I was like, how have I never heard of this? It should be just as big as all the others because it's horrible.

• 20:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And, you know, awful.

• 20:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It feels like with cults.

• 20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It can only go in one direction.

• 21:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, well, you don't hear about the good one. Are there good cults where it's like, and everything was fine?

• 21:04Karen Kilgariff?

  The Catholic Church. You heard about that a lot lately.

• 21:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder if there are any like positive ones. What would a positive cult be?

• 21:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I just don't think it can be because it's the, any positivity then turns in on itself because of the creeps at the top.

• 21:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, if it's a positive one, it doesn't get called a cult. So we don't hear about it, probably.

• 21:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Then it's just an MLM.

• 21:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, then it's just a religion. Okay, so today's story is about a nefarious couple who teamed up to start a Christian cult that managed to operate for 40 years and inflict horrific abuses on its members. This is the story of the Alamo Christian Foundation. Have you heard of them? It's spelled Alamo.

• 21:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I'm thinking of the rental car company.

• 21:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:45Karen Kilgariff?

  They were horrible.

• 21:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not them, but-

• 21:48Karen Kilgariff?

  They abuse people.

• 21:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No, but they actually do have a really crazy connection to like a piece of merchandise or to like a public facing thing like the rental car thing.

• 21:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 21:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's bananas.

• 21:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 22:00Georgia Hardstark?

  The main source I use for this story is a docu-series that Vincent and I watch called Ministry of Evil: The Twisted Cult of Tony Alamo. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. This is a great documentary. It has all the information, so consider this your friend telling you about the documentary and then you should go watch it. Because I'm not gonna be able to like-

• 22:22Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 22:22Georgia Hardstark?

  -relay all the information and it's really fucking interesting.

• 22:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I am gonna, I promise I'll listen.

• 22:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Caveat.

• 22:31Karen Kilgariff?

  But I'm gonna be thinking that I've already seen this documentary because, but I feel like the story is so dense and it goes on for so long.

• 22:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it does.

• 22:40Karen Kilgariff?

  But is that the one I'm thinking of or is like, I'm like, but then there's children of God.

• 22:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Like I feel like I'm, I have documentary-

• 22:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  -poisoning essentially.

• 22:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Fatigue.

• 22:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, where I've seen so many where it's like, is the closed captioning yellow?

• 22:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, let me tell you what they look like, because then maybe that'll help. It looks like Tammy Faye and, and then it looks like, um-

• 23:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Fat Elvis?

• 23:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, but I was gonna say it's more of a Roy Orbison kind of thing.

• 23:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, okay.

• 23:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you see that?

• 23:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 23:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Bright blonde hair, she's got the most amazing dresses, like 70s style.

• 23:12Karen Kilgariff?

  But he has a very 70s like man, paunchy man vibe.

• 23:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 23:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 23:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, that's them. Roy Orbison, old Elvis kind of a thing.

• 23:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Got you.

• 23:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. This is the one. All right, so I'm not gonna like really get into the beginnings. It's the same thing you hear for like Manson and all of the other ones. It's like the 1960s, there's a lot of hippies going to Los Angeles, trying to figure out their way and there's a lot of people preying on them, including this cult. They pass out flyers about Jesus, they invite people to come to the church and it turns out for these guys, they're doing the bidding for a couple, this couple, a man named Tony Alamo and a woman named Susan, who have started the Alamo Christian Foundation. So it's the same thing you've heard a million times, you know, it's-

• 23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the same thing you dream of doing one day with your money.

• 24:02Georgia Hardstark?

  With starting a cult or running away to Los Angeles?

• 24:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Starting a Christian Foundation.

• 24:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my, that's my dream. I have my mood board. It's like.

• 24:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just so weird where it's like you're all that work. And maybe it's just my perspective that I can't get, but it's like, you're gonna do all that work and not like, do a show at the end. You're gonna do all that work and not, it's just purely to force people to go to church.

• 24:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Well, so she is actually an incredible orator, as they say.

• 24:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's, the story is like almost in two parts where she's in charge and then he's in charge. And when she's in charge, it kind of makes sense because she can stand up on the pulpit and give these incredible sermons and she's really a show, a showman.

• 24:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And her daughter is in the documentary and she's fucking the most amazing person and you want to hang out with her so bad. Um, and she talks about what a con woman her mother was and how good she was at it. And I think she actually was, it's, it's very similar to like Jim Jones.

• 24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, she's just really good at it.

• 24:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 24:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And like the same time period where people are lost, they're looking for something new. They, you know, their parents are like old school and so they don't fit in there anymore, but there's nothing else for them. You know what I mean?

• 25:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I could totally, it's so easy.

• 25:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. When you run out of the house, like at the beginning of the Pat Benatar video, love is a battlefield. And you're like, fuck you, I'll never come back. And then you go out and then the world is horrifying and you think you can't go back.

• 25:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So that's, that's this time. It's like, it makes sense that these people in the sixties and seventies fell for this. But the people in the nineties have no fucking excuse.

• 25:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, it was a very sarcastic time and there was a lot to run from.

• 25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You think they were kidding? The nineties were like, we were just being sarcastic about joining a cult.

• 25:41Karen Kilgariff?

  People needed to take shelter from all how toxic the culture was.

• 25:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 25:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Where they were just like, I don't know, Jesus, will you help me?

• 25:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Because these assholes.

• 25:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Can't anymore. Okay. So let me tell you about Susan first of all. She looks like, yeah, like Dolly Parton and Janis the Muppet from the Muppet Band became a person. Her name was Edith Opal Horn. She's born in Arkansas in 1925. She wants to be an actress, moves to Los Angeles in the 1940s and she gets a job as a bar girl, which I really loved this. It's, they, they pay pretty young women, bar people pay pretty young to sit at the bar, have a drink and then the man buys them a drink, but it's not alcohol, but they're charged for alcohol. So they just keep drinking and like making the men keep buying drinks.

• 26:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 26:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's great.

• 26:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So like, yeah, they're just to keep the patrons coming and buying more drinks.

• 26:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Makes sense.

• 26:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? So then Susan, who at this point is married, she has a daughter, as I said, her name, the daughter's name, I'm just gonna call her Chris, because it's some kind of Chris Theon that I can't pronounce, and she goes by Chris. Susan meets this man named Mark Hoffman. He had been born Bernie Laser Hoffman in 1934 in Missouri.

• 26:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Laser?

• 26:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Laser.

• 26:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 26:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, with a Z.

• 26:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's kinda cool.

• 26:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, and he changed his name, like, you fucking changed, you changed your name to Laser.

• 26:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Your name's Bernie Laser? You could do anything with your life.

• 27:00Georgia Hardstark?

  The coolest thing. Uh, Mark was raised at Father Flanagan's boy's town, which I'm sure was a very peaceful, calm.

• 27:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Supportive.

• 27:09Karen Kilgariff?

  No problems there.

• 27:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope.

• 27:10Karen Kilgariff?

  No sarcasm there.

• 27:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything's fine. Um, and after growing up and moving out to California, he becomes a low-level grifter, um, and had several convictions for petty theft, as well as for statutory rape. And so this guy Mark meets Susan in the early 60s. She's 10 years older than him and kind of just a presence, right? So he falls for her, they fall for each other, even though, um, Mark has no interest or knowledge of Christianity, he's like, I see what this does to people, I'm fucking all in, like, wants to be part of the mind-controll-y thing.

• 27:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? And he sees it as a business opportunity, really, because Susan does have this magnetism that draws people to her. She's very, it's like, motherly, I don't know, there's something about it that people love. Susan and Mark divorce their spouses, and they get married in Vegas in 1966. At this point, Susan's 41 and Mark is 32.

• 28:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 28:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 28:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Those are kinda crucial ages to be making.

• 28:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Interesting. Oh, Susan really landed a young guy. That's exciting.

• 28:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's kinda like, it does seem like her little fuckboy a little bit, cuz like, he's in the background of the photos of her, like, giving these amazing sermons with all the, her crazy nails, and he does seem like a supportive little fuckboy.

• 28:27Karen Kilgariff?

  A supportive groupie.

• 28:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and I'm sure she just, like, wanted it.

• 28:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Good for her.

• 28:33Georgia Hardstark?

  To a point. Good for her to a point. So, um...

• 28:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Good for her to appoint him as a good title.

• 28:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So they changed their name, so he changes his name to Tony and they change his last name to Alamo. So from here on out, it's Susan and Tony Alamo. The Alamos begin preaching on the streets to young people in LA. They gained a ton of followers and you're like, how did that happen? They start operating out of a house in West Hollywood on Crescent and Sunset, which is like.

• 29:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That's where I get my hair done. What, I mean, like, I wonder which corner had a house, because there's Greenblatt's. There's a Sunset Five, mini shopping center.

• 29:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Then a.

• 29:15Georgia Hardstark?

  So I think probably behind one of those places.

• 29:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Up in the hills a little bit?

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Cara, Cara Klink and Jared used to live right there. Yeah, there's like, there's some apartments, buildings there.

• 29:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 29:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So we're, yeah.

• 29:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's right. They had that great mid-century apartment. God damn, that's nice.

• 29:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, I bet it's like right around there.

• 29:34Karen Kilgariff?

  This is not, this is not relevant at all.

• 29:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not, but like, you, it's like, we're living for five people and you're one of them.

• 29:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're in a, this is your, our podcast.

• 29:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll text Cara after this and be like, guess what?

• 29:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, all right, so I just love shit like that.

• 29:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's the fun of like, it's like hometown true crime, because it's like, this actually happened here. We're not talking about some faraway place, like in the place where you can't convince someone to give you $1 if you were short on gas.

• 30:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 30:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Somehow these people came in and started.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Changing hearts and minds on Sunset.

• 30:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's a happening time. I meant Sunset was crawling and they're just like, come a couple of blocks away. And we have this apartment where you can, or a house, whatever, you can hang out with us. And because of that, very quickly, the city of West Hollywood takes issue with the over occupancy of the house. Because guess, by 1970, there's, it's a three bedroom house. Guess how many people in 1970 at this point are living there?

• 30:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Ten?

• 30:33Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's over, they're mad because it's over occupancy. You're going with ten.

• 30:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, three to a bedroom? Five to a bedroom, fifteen?

• 30:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Two hundred.

• 30:42Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 30:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's probably like people going in and out, you know, it's like not everyone living at the same time, but two hundred.

• 30:49Karen Kilgariff?

  How? That's so gross.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so gross.

• 30:52Karen Kilgariff?

  There's like two old spinster sisters that live next door with like, another one's coming in.

• 30:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  They don't have shoes on.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  They've got their pet lizard. I'm thinking of the Simpsons, the sisters from the Simpsons.

• 31:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Another one's coming in.

• 31:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So like that alone would make me be like, no, thank you to this cult. You know what I mean? You don't have a clean bathroom? No.

• 31:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on, where's the spaghetti dinner? I don't want to just hang out in a hot apartment.

• 31:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. So they are like, shit, we need to move. So by the early seventies, they wind up buying a compound out in the desert. Yes, very much like the Manson family. In fact, it's not far from there. It's in a cult hotspot called Saugus. California, you know, Saugus?

• 31:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Saugus.

• 31:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Just down the road from the Manson family. So they could like high five on their way to being terrible.

• 31:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, what a weird time. We think we live in a weird time, but like truly like all of culture just ripped in half. And then it was like, take these drugs and walk over there and see what happens.

• 31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  No one had ever lived that way. Like by the nineties, it was like people had experimented and lived that way and been through shit. But that like nineteen sixties on, no, you couldn't go on an airplane without being in a suit. You know what I mean?

• 32:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no alternative. There's no counterculture. So it'd be mind blowing to see that.

• 32:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So counter and so like the way my mom used to be about like, you're not wearing those jeans to the dentist.

• 32:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Then your mom.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you talking about? And it's like, can you imagine what those poor people who like grew up in the Great Depression? They finally make money. They get, give the money to their kids and their kids are like, hey, man.

• 32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Bye.

• 32:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Or like, you, you don't understand me, goodbye.

• 32:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And I want to do drugs too.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Want to do drugs and I want to join whatever religion anyone offers me on Sunset Boulevard.

• 32:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 32:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And I believe it. I believe these people who, like, the trust then was much more.

• 32:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Trusting.

• 32:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And, you know, the thing we've learned about like the effervescence of being at a, at a, say, music show with a bunch of people and you're like, an experience. They were having that like with religion where it's like a change.

• 32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And the way you talk, you've talked about sociopaths being like commanding and you just want to follow them.

• 33:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 33:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You've got to be a sociopath to be a fucking cult leader. We know that, right?

• 33:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I believe so. If not full psychopath.

• 33:08Georgia Hardstark?

  If you have to say that like I'm talking to God directly and then God wanted me to tell you what to say, like, come on dude.

• 33:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't even answer emails. I'm talking to God on the daily to tell you what to do?

• 33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of, okay. So, but they're into it and so, um, it's all the normal cult stuff that I won't get into, but you can watch in the documentary where they give them, the hippies give them the money, but they're also like, it's hippies. They don't have a lot of money. But like secretly, there are a lot of hippies probably who have like trust funds and shit. So it works.

• 33:38Karen Kilgariff?

  There was a, some famous actresses, who was it's daughter that like she pulled out of the Manson?

• 33:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It, it.

• 33:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Murder, she wrote? I think her daughter, Angela Lansbury's daughter was like almost a Manson-er. And then she got yanked.

• 33:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Like a musketeer or a mouse. What's the mouse?

• 33:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Mousketeer.

• 33:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Mousketeer, yeah. She got yoinked right out.

• 34:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And then her mom was like, "If you saw you use that credit card, you will not be buying things for Charles Manson."

• 34:08Georgia Hardstark?

  So, um, so they, they pay, you know, they give them all their paychecks. At this point, the religion has achieved tax exempt status because they're a religious institution.

• 34:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the dream.

• 34:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. But conditions at this desert compound, guess how they are? They're horrific.

• 34:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Disgusting.

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They're disgusting. There's many members that have babies and small children because they do this really smart thing where they open, they're open to single mothers and they're like, "We accept you. We won't judge you. Come and we'll like, this is a community that can take care of your children." Cause that was so taboo at the time, right? However, they have no access to disposable diapers, but they also have no access to water to wash the cloth diapers. And people are sleeping about 125 in a room.

• 34:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, and I'm sure the rooms weren't very insulated or nice to begin with. There's no access pretty much to shower facilities. But meanwhile, Susan and Tony, guess what? They live in a nice house.

• 35:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're like going to Saks Fifth Avenue, buying expensive clothes. Just, they're living their good life.

• 35:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. She comes by and she's like, look, I bought a silk scarf if anybody wants to borrow it.

• 35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  For your baby.

• 35:16Karen Kilgariff?

  In a pit.

• 35:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God. But it's not just financial abuse taking place. And this is where we start to get dark. Susan starts preaching to parents that their children will go to hell if they do not punish them for real or imagined offenses. And the beatings begin. And this becomes a key component of the church that will endure for decades before they're finally stopped. So at this point in the 19, the mid 1970s, Susan's daughter, Chris, who has children of her own, she, even she is like, this is fucked up and leaves, like has to run and leave. So that's how bad it is. Like if your daughter who's been with you for your entire life is just something like, oops, this is too much for me.

• 35:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. She's been born into the cult and she leaves.

• 36:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And she does that amazing thing where you don't try to sugarcoat or make your parents' sins seem reasonable. This woman is incredible. She's very much just like, these fucking nuts.

• 36:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Very good. So they also though, like Susan and Tony are these larger than life, you know, Elvis and Dolly Parton looking characters. And she again is really good. So they have a weekly syndicated religious TV show. They even, they even perform, or like they even do a sermon at the Grand Old Opry, like you and I did that one time.

• 36:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I bet our sermons were very similar.

• 36:38Georgia Hardstark?

  They were very similar. So they're like mainstream and it gives them credit.

• 36:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And this, it kind of has like a musical variety show vibe and a lot of sequence, a lot of, you know, emphasis on the Bible, just like that crazy 70s Tammy Faye.

• 36:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And this attracts new members because people think it's respectable. They have TV time. They have a real show. By 1975, the California authorities are like, hey, something's not right here. I don't think the workers are being paid. So Susan and Tony do the smart thing and get the fuck out of California and go to a place that's a little more chill about it, Arkansas.

• 37:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 37:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's another thing for me. When they're like, let's get out of California. I'd be like, mm.

• 37:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm staying.

• 37:24Georgia Hardstark?

  My cult, yeah, my cult status really depends on location, for sure.

• 37:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 37:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 37:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Beach access.

• 37:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, yeah, because I feel like it's the old 30 Rock, don't move to a second location idea.

• 37:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 37:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's like, once you're going to a second location, what are you gonna do? Bunker?

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 37:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna start talking about the end of the world? You're gonna start talking about like doubling and tripling down on your dedication?

• 37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're isolated. So there's no like, if you leave a compound, you can, you're in Los Angeles, you can go wherever.

• 37:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:53Georgia Hardstark?

  There's, there's like services. Suddenly you're in Arkansas and they don't give a shit and you don't know anyone there.

• 37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's kind of perfect. They choose a location near the Texas Oklahoma border and they buy a compound, of course. They love compound. And they also run several businesses in town, including a grocery store, a gas station, a restaurant. They kind of take over this small town. They infiltrate them, as you would say. And the location is right at the highway, so they actually get a lot of business. And they actually do really well, but it's more of a front because like this business gives this business the money to open the, you know, it's to hide the money.

• 38:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And because of the TV show and Tony's, Tony has some connections in the music industry, they also start getting big name performers to play at the restaurant bar, including Dolly Parton, Tammy Wynette, and Roy Orbison. So all of those people

• 38:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Jeez.

• 38:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Come and perform there. And Bill Clinton even stops by. He's the Attorney General at the time. And he and Hillary go on a date to this place. And Bill Clinton says something about how Tony Alamo is Roy Orbison on speed.

• 38:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 38:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So, you know, he's not hiding it while I don't think. But of course, all the businesses are staffed by members of the church who sign their paycheck over to Susan and Tony. So. So at this point, Susan had been using cancer as a tactic. And the fact that she had been cured of cancer by God to get people to believe that she was blessed or something, that wasn't true at all.

• 39:26Karen Kilgariff?

  She never had cancer.

• 39:27Georgia Hardstark?

  She never had cancer, and then she got cancer.

• 39:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 39:30Georgia Hardstark?

  In 1975, she's diagnosed with breast cancer. And she dies at the age of 56 in 1982, dies from breast cancer. So suddenly, it's over. And it's also a thing of like, but people thought she was blessed. And so her dying of cancer actually makes the whole religion look really bad.

• 39:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right.

• 39:49Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 39:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Because she had been claiming that like,

• 39:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:52Karen Kilgariff?

  the Lord had saved her.

• 39:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And then it didn't work. But then Tony just does this thing where he yells at the members and is like, it's because you didn't pray hard enough, right?

• 39:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh, that's when I'd be out.

• 40:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the one for you.

• 40:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait a second, I liked all this.

• 40:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I prayed hard.

• 40:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You started blaming me.

• 40:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So Tony, now, this is the like, second chapter of this cult, and it gets really fucking dark. Warning, the content going on here is child sexual abuse, child rape, child abuse. So it gets culty and dark. Tony is now 48, and he, everyone's like, it's gonna fall apart now because the person who was good at getting people to join and keeping them is dead. But he takes over as the sole leader of the Alamo Christian Foundation.

• 40:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 40:39Georgia Hardstark?

  So Tony like, kinda doesn't know what to do at first. And so he stalls for time by not burying Susan's body. Instead, he has her embalmed and brought to the compound's main house, and the members of the church are to pray over her open casket 24 hours a day, asking God to raise her from the dead. Like, they think that's what's gonna happen.

• 41:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 41:04Georgia Hardstark?

  This goes on for six months.

• 41:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Her body sits there for six months.

• 41:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just such a tall order. Why would you not do something?

• 41:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, can I, can I get a nap? It's your first move after the woman who was making it all happen dies. You're the, you're the dark horse that no one actually believes in, and you're going to walk right up and be like, we're going to win the World Series. Like, what are you doing?

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 41:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Did he do it? Is that what you're about to tell me?

• 41:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And so he did.

• 41:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And so he did.

• 41:40Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 41:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 41:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 41:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 42:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 42:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 42:44Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 42:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. It's the season of green.

• 42:49Georgia Hardstark?

  This year, Ryobi has the deals you've been waiting for and the perfect gift for everyone on your list.

• 42:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Stick vacuums for that post-holiday mess, leaf blowers for tidying up the yard, speakers, fans, drills, nailers, and even snow blowers. Ryobi has it all.

• 43:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Big savings and more gifts than ever before.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, when you buy a select Ryobi kit, you get another tool free.

• 43:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Find your green at ryobitoles.com/murder.

• 43:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's R-Y-O-B-I, Ryobi, only at The Home Depot.

• 43:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 43:20Karen Kilgariff?

  We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 43:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 43:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 43:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 43:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare Experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 43:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 43:58Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 44:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 44:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 44:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 44:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.

• 44:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 44:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 44:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S.O.L.A.C.E. health.com/murder.

• 44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 44:34Georgia Hardstark?

  After six months, her body is breaking down and the members are like, hey, Tony, we hate to like, we hate to like, question you, but.

• 44:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But her nose just fell off.

• 44:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 44:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So I mean, God, it's a dead body.

• 44:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. I know.

• 44:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's horrible.

• 44:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And people are praying over it 24 hours a day and it's their fault that it didn't happen, not that God doesn't exist or that she's not blessed or whatever. So he builds her a heart-shaped mausoleum on the compound property.

• 45:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, a little more responsible.

• 45:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then at the same time, things are dicey on the business and three weeks after Susan's death, a lawsuit against the foundation by the Department of Labor goes to trial. Basically, you know, they're like, you're not paying your, your employees. And they determine, the district court determines that the foundation owes its worker $19 million in back wages and overtime.

• 45:27Karen Kilgariff?

  In 1970s money?

• 45:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Do we know how much it would be in today's money?

• 45:30Georgia Hardstark?

  No, Ally didn't let me know. But wait, I do, yes, I do. Yes, I do. Hi, yes, I do. Ally let me know.

• 45:37Karen Kilgariff?

  What a turn, Ally.

• 45:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Ally Elkin, I just threw you under the bus, even though there was no bus. 19 million in back wages and overtime and then in 80s money is.

• 45:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. You said nineteen million.

• 45:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Nineteen million and it's like, it's like, you know.

• 45:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Late seventies, early eighties?

• 45:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Or mid eighties, I think at this point.

• 45:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I never get these right.

• 45:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, early eighties, early eighties, eighty two. Like, that's gonna fucking.

• 46:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. Early eighties.

• 46:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Early eighties.

• 46:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Nineteen million. Is it fifty million?

• 46:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Sixty-three. That's not, but you're in the ballpark.

• 46:11Karen Kilgariff?

  At least I'm in the.

• 46:12Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 46:12Karen Kilgariff?

  But remember the other day when you got it right?

• 46:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I got it right.

• 46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Eight million.

• 46:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Tony appeals the case, blah, blah, blah. The IRS comes around and they're like, what? This isn't right. And so.

• 46:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So much money.

• 46:24Georgia Hardstark?

  If the IRS is like, this looks excessive.

• 46:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Then you're something, you're not doing it right.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Something terrible is about to happen.

• 46:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So after burying Susan, Tony is in and out of town. He goes back to LA a lot. He basically marries a woman named Brigitta, who owns a like clothing shop in Los Angeles. He kind of does a number on her, it seems. She's like from Sweden and she falls in love with, you know, the rich Christian televangelist type of guy, whatever, whatever. But she is brought back to the compound. Everyone's like, she looks exactly like Susan. They think that he maybe was using her to like, pretend that Susan came back, but she's a fucking Swedish accent. It's not her.

• 47:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so there's, I mean, that makes a lot of sense because it's like in the middle of all this, the psychopath falls in love. And it's like, oh no, it's just one more tool in his tool belt.

• 47:16Georgia Hardstark?

  She looks like her. And she does, she is an atheist, but that doesn't stop her from moving to the compound with him. And, yeah, she's not good at being a preacher like Susan was, but she is a good businesswoman and she's into clothing. And so she, so she winds up setting Tony on the course for the foundation's most famous business venture.

• 47:42Georgia Hardstark?

  In nineteen eighty-four, okay, do you remember, like, picture Mike Tyson in the jean jacket with like rhinestones and like a spray painted, like Tasmanian devil that had been fucking bedazzled.

• 47:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 47:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And those were like the big jack, the big jean jackets, those were a hit back. Then, right?

• 48:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they were.

• 48:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, they were a big part of it. They have the Hollywood, um, like spray, or, um, spray painted Hollywood, you know,

• 48:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Sign?

• 48:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Sign, or the Las Vegas, and then they were all bedazzled and shit.

• 48:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Georgia Hardstark?

  That's this fucking cult. They fucking made these, and they got fucking famous.

• 48:18Karen Kilgariff?

  What was the name of that brand?

• 48:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It was called, um, Tony Alamo of Nashville is the name of the business venture.

• 48:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Classic psychopath move, put your whole name in there.

• 48:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Like, Alamo sounds better, but no, you won't know it.

• 48:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Tony Alamo of, it's like, uh, Giorgio Armani of Beverly Hills, or whatever.

• 48:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 48:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And like, nineteen ninety?

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the eighties. No, in eighty-four, eighty-four, they start selling these denim jackets.

• 48:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 48:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Airbrush, airbrush, that's what it is.

• 48:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 48:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Hand bedazzled with rhinestones, and they become wildly popular. They're sold, they're sold in high-end apartment stores and boutiques. Um, and the, it's, the brand is, um, Alamo, clothing brand. They have a flagship store in, uh, Nashville.

• 48:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 49:00Georgia Hardstark?

  They make customized jackets for, like, Dolly Parton, Mr. T, Brooke Shields, of course. Michael Jackson gets a leather version and wears it on the cover of Bad. That's, next time you see the cover of Bad, that's a cult's jacket.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god.

• 49:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so it gets...

• 49:16Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the last thing this cult needed.

• 49:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:18Karen Kilgariff?

  In terms of...

• 49:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Going viral.

• 49:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly.

• 49:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a huge influx of cash.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. Um, and legitimacy, again.

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So, uh, here's the thing about the jackets, though, like every other Alamo venture, they're being made with unpaid labor

• 49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:33Georgia Hardstark?

  of the members. And in this case, it's almost all being done by the children of the foundation, because they've got those little fingers that can pick up those little fucking rhinestones.

• 49:43Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 49:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And glue them on. Yes. The kids living on the Arkansas compound, they're bused to a facility each night where they hand bedazzle and hand airbrush every jacket.

• 49:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Each night?

• 49:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:55Karen Kilgariff?

  In secret?

• 49:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Yeah, and hand, it's like they can say, they're handmade, 100% handmade, but they don't tell you how little those hands are. So those little fingers going around, the jackets sell for around $600 each, which in today's money.

• 50:10Karen Kilgariff?

  2,500?

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  1,500, more than 1,500 in today's money. So 1,500 for a fucking jean jacket.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Insane.

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Of course, those child workers are never paid, and the Department of Labor is very suspicious, but they can't prove anything. The IRS ultimately revokes the foundation's tax exempt status, and Tony, who'd been spending lavishly this whole time, doesn't have the resources to pay those back taxes, because you have to pay them. And so Tony, it almost seems like at this point, people are after him, but he's got this like, like things are feeding his ego still. He becomes this like megalomaniac, and he spirals deeper and deeper, and with that comes more violence against his followers. And then also, he divorces the look-alike.

• 50:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Prigita?

• 50:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Prigita goes hopefully home to LA and lives a great life. Who knows?

• 50:59Karen Kilgariff?

  But she's the reason those jackets worked.

• 51:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Hopefully she got a, she's in the documentary, and she looks like she's in a lavish spot, so hopefully she got a cut in the divorce.

• 51:08Karen Kilgariff?

  All green screen.

• 51:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. She's actually where?

• 51:11Karen Kilgariff?

  She's wearing just a green cloth from here down.

• 51:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So beatings and abuse are actually kind of normal already in the foundation. It's happened since the beginning, but in this period, the late 80s, after Susan's death, things get way worse. And this, it's just awful. Children are subjected to intense beating at Tony's direction. Tony threatens that if parents or other adults in the cult don't beat their children as punishment for real or imagined misbehavior, he'll beat the parents instead. But, you know, over and over, these, these ex-members say, we really believe that he was the Messiah. Like, we 100%. Believed that he was basically God.

• 51:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you know, the Messiah, when he comes back to the earth, is immediately going to start making jean jackets with bedazzle or bedazzle decorations on the back.

• 52:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And definitely when Jesus comes back, he's going to make a paddle that has holes in it for you and your followers to beat children with.

• 52:09Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a thing, there's a trend on TikTok right now, and it's people with their little kids, like four and five years old, and they go, finish this phrase, we're gonna play a game.

• 52:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 52:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I brought you into this world because I love you. And you're just like, oh.

• 52:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Girls should be fun, loved.

• 52:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it's like, we just had it hard.

• 52:29Georgia Hardstark?

  It's bad. When I read that, my mom used to spank us. And when it was bad, it was the wooden spoon.

• 52:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I just like, I'm traumatized from that, I can't use a wooden spoon.

• 52:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And when you were really bad, so my brother got it a lot, but I got it a few times too, the wooden spoon with the cutouts in it, holes in it.

• 52:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Because the wind, there was something about the like force of it that was different.

• 52:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Makes it hurt worse.

• 52:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the wooden spoon with the holes was you did something really fucking bad.

• 53:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 53:00Georgia Hardstark?

  The regular wooden spoon, yeah, it was not, it's not good.

• 53:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That's awful, I'm sorry. The, the only reason I didn't ever get that, and I was a prime candidate, is because both my parents had such bad, I mean, my dad had great parents, but I think they got smacked around. My mom definitely did, so they, their, that was their rule to each other.

• 53:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop with me.

• 53:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't hit little kids.

• 53:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't hit children, you don't use violence to try to fucking parent children.

• 53:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Teach, it's so obvious now, it's so obvious now. But it really wasn't back then, until, and then there was one day when I was 17, and I was so awful and obnoxious, and my mom tried to spank me because she had just bought me all these clothes, and I like tried them on and left them on the floor. And she was like, pick those clothes up. And I was like, I'm leaving. And then she grabbed my arm and was walking around to smack my butt. And I just was going, what are you doing? Stop it. And just like, oh my God, what are you doing? And I was like, later on, only later on did I realize, like, You just didn't realize how good you had it. You didn't realize what those people were fucking doing for your every day.

• 54:07Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't start at 17 though. You can't start smacking your child at 17.

• 54:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I was already smoking cloves. I was, I was headed for duty.

• 54:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It's too late. They, they, they are who they are at that point and it's kind of your fault.

• 54:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fully your fault, parent.

• 54:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And the parents also say that they believe that beatings were going to save their children from going to hell. Cause remember hell was a big part of this. Hell's a big part of Christianity, it turns out.

• 54:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, on earth.

• 54:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So they actually think, you know, who knows how much, but they, they convince themselves that they're helping their children to not go to hell.

• 54:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, and that paddle that he uses with the holes drilled into it, he nicks, Tony nicknames the Board of Education.

• 54:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Boo, not funny.

• 54:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Real clever fucker.

• 54:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to hell.

• 54:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Beatings are so severe that children lose consciousness. So in the late eighties, a man named Kerry Miller leaves the cult with his brother and, but the wives are like, we're not leaving and keep the children. And this guy's in, um, the documentary prominently. Um, they wind up going, basically they get a court order to, um, get the kids out. And so the kids are freed, but the whole story gets a fair amount of media attention because Kerry Miller's son gets beaten severely. And that gets out in the media. And so it becomes a big public story. And I think at the time too, there's like the satanic panic. There's some, you know, like there's some backlash from Manson and Jonestown. And so people are like scrutinizing cults a little more, maybe.

• 55:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And probably, I think child abuse as a concept was really coming to the fore. There was that episode of different strokes.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  A hundred percent.

• 55:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It was like this thing of like, we all have to really reckon with this problem.

• 55:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It's up to us. It's not, it's not a secret.

• 55:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Georgia Hardstark?

  If you don't let it be.

• 55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's how it survives. Yeah. So at this point, Tony in 1988, he's just like, fuck it and goes on the run. But he's able to control the cult still remotely over the phone. He sends orders back to the compound in Arkansas. He doesn't show up for a civil case in Arkansas and the court decides against him. And at this point, the FBI raids the Arkansas property.

• 56:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank God.

• 56:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Assets. No, no, no, not think of, not yet. And so, basically, everyone abandons the compound before they can get there. And also, so no one's there and no one gets caught, but it turns out that he also has someone break into the mausoleum where Susan is buried and steal the casket, because they think like, they're gonna, I don't know, I don't know. They take the casket with them, because they're like, we need to keep her body safe.

• 56:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Is this gross of me to say that's kind of romantic? At least he meant it, that he really was into her.

• 56:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It almost is like, they, from the way they talk about it, it sounds like he did believe that she was, you know, holy.

• 56:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And so if they left her holy body there, you know, the government would get it.

• 57:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 57:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And this is a time too, and I don't think people understand this, when like, the government and religion weren't best friends and in line. They were actually against each other.

• 57:09Karen Kilgariff?

  They were very far apart.

• 57:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? Remember that?

• 57:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I do.

• 57:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So extremist religions weren't, didn't have the ear of the president and the government at the time. They were actually against each other.

• 57:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I know it sounds like, nowadays we know that they're, right?

• 57:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 57:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So, they were scared of them.

• 57:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 57:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And they were scared of taking this holy woman's body in their mind.

• 57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Georgia Hardstark?

  There had to be some white powder going on for Tony.

• 57:33Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't make all that money off of Tony Alamo of Beverly Hills or whatever bullshit jacket he was doing.

• 57:39Georgia Hardstark?

  In the 80s.

• 57:40Karen Kilgariff?

  In the 80s, and not be like, I'm sure he was living large in every way possible.

• 57:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, line him up.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 57:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Literally.

• 57:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So, the paranoia of, we need to get her body out of there, actually makes total sense.

• 57:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, that's always part of the decline of a cult, is like, the psychopath that's in charge is like, and you said megalomania.

• 57:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like, ingest all of it, keep on, keep the believing going.

• 58:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, right. So now, everyone's scattered. There's still members, though. They still fucking believe in him, and they're still...

• 58:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hard to change.

• 58:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's hard to like, give up on a thing that you devoted so much of your life to and believed in.

• 58:15Karen Kilgariff?

  You went all in on it.

• 58:17Georgia Hardstark?

  You went all in. And to say no now is, yeah, to admit, you're a fucking idiot.

• 58:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Tony gives orders to the church over the phone. No one knows where he is. The IRS winds up seizing all of Tony's assets, including that store in Nashville, where the jackets are made. And then while he's on the run, he's quoted in a newspaper, because of course, he always calls the press to tell him, tell them how misaligned and how fucked up everyone's against him.

• 58:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 58:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And during one of those calls, he basically threatens an Arkansas judge, which you can't fucking do.

• 58:51Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's not allowed.

• 58:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You cannot do that.

• 58:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't do it.

• 58:54Georgia Hardstark?

  This prompts the US Marshal to issue a major manhunt to track him down. So you fucked with the wrong, I don't know, department?

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So in 1991, federal agents examined the phone records. Basically, they track him down with phone calls from cell phone towers all the way back in 91, right? Which is like surprising. They find him in Tampa, Florida. And long story short, they eventually hit on a particular address, stake out the house, see Tony come out to pick up his morning newspaper. And they raid the house. They find Tony sitting at the table in sunglasses and a tie dye shirt. And there's a photo of him like being, or the video of him being let out in his like tie dye. Looks very like, yeah, it's like, it's old Elvis for sure.

• 59:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but in a tie dye. So it's confusing.

• 59:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a good cover.

• 59:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Stacks of cash all over the table, but no Susan's body.

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 59:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not there. They don't know where it is.

• 59:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 59:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Tony is charged with child abuse in California for the beatings. Also charged with federal tax evasion. Essentially, the tax evasion, this is like so horrible and wrong, but like that is easier to try and actually get a conviction for than child abuse. So they're like, let's get him in like locked up now on that and we can worry about the child abuse stuff later.

• 1:00:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. That's the, well, it's not comparatively directly, but that's the old, I think, right, Al Capone, how they, how they got.

• 1:00:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly that, yeah.

• 1:00:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Things you can actually prove.

• 1:00:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So he goes to prison.

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  He gets six years, I think, in prison and the cult doesn't disband. They take orders from him from prison. He's somehow wanted to use a phone and they record sermons and they play them for all the members and people come to see him and they move into the town. They move into the town near the prison so they can be ready when he gets out.

• 1:00:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 1:00:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Off the compound and to the prison.

• 1:00:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. And so through the early 90s, new members continue to join. New members continue to join and during this time when he's in prison in the early 90s, he starts to drop little hints that it's okay for a man to have multiple wives.

• 1:01:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 1:01:04Georgia Hardstark?

  There we go.

• 1:01:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Where'd he get that idea from?

• 1:01:07Georgia Hardstark?

  The Bible.

• 1:01:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:01:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't you know? It's there. And little by little, his members start to accept this. He decrees that he's entitled to have multiple wives.

• 1:01:17Karen Kilgariff?

  If you say child brides, I'm going to get up and walk out of this podcast studio.

• 1:01:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Kid brides. So I don't want, I don't want you to walk up and leave.

• 1:01:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I have to stay.

• 1:01:26Georgia Hardstark?

  But you have to stay. Child brides.

• 1:01:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Does he really say that?

• 1:01:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, right before.

• 1:01:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I did see this documentary.

• 1:01:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he starts to introduce teenage girls from the cult as his wives and then goes on to say like, you know, once they hit puberty, the Bible says they can be wives, that kind of thing. So, yeah, so puberty.

• 1:01:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't go younger than that, please.

• 1:01:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yeah, so he recruits teenage girls to work at his house while he's in prison, which basically means marrying Tony. You know, they do the like fake ceremony. You're married. It's sexual assault. And then, but the parents can, like those kids have been raised in the cult and their parents consider it an honor and they're excited about them marrying their daughters or young daughters marrying Tony. The victims at this point, most of them who were born in the 90s, were born into this cult, so that's all they know. And so they think it's okay or they, they think they have to. They think they're going to hell if they don't. They visit him in prison and bring photos of the children that are still in the church so he can select other victims. Like, he just becomes this.

• 1:02:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Monster.

• 1:02:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Monster and a groomer and a fucking child abuser. In 1998, now in his 60s, Tony's released from prison. As a requirement of his release, he has to return Susan's body. It has to happen.

• 1:02:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:02:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And so he denies ever having it, but right when he is released, the casket is anonymously delivered to an Arkansas funeral home.

• 1:02:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Where was it? We don't know where it was.

• 1:02:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, doesn't it only mean something to him? Are they saying like, you just can't have this dead body?

• 1:03:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:03:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:03:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Like desecration of a corpse. And then meanwhile, her daughter and her family are like, we want to be able to bury. You know, it's like, you can't, you can't fucking do that.

• 1:03:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That makes sense.

• 1:03:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So once Tony's out of prison, he continues to quote, marry girls from the church. And of course rape and sexually abuse them. Also physically and verbally abuses them. He does this with 24 girls that become his wife. The, this is just like, and it's part of the documentary and she's in it. And she's so strong and so admirable. The youngest one is eight years old.

• 1:03:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, man.

• 1:03:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And I mean, these women who are in the documentary and end up testifying against him are so freaking strong and incredible. They were raised with this mindset. They didn't join the cult themselves.

• 1:03:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:03:45Georgia Hardstark?

  When they were lost teenagers.

• 1:03:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It was the only world they knew.

• 1:03:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And their parents were telling them that they were go to hell if, you know.

• 1:03:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Or that it was this honor.

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  We've been picked and it's so special.

• 1:03:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, exactly. So nine of the 24 girls are under 18 years old. He continues to use the Bible to justify this. And they're all kept isolated in Tony's home. It's the thing you always hear about. But concerned ex-members start to make complaints to the FBI about the abuse. But in order to prove the case, the FBI needs at least one of the current victims to come forward, which is of course terrifying to them. A lot of their families are still in the cult.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Georgia Hardstark?

  In 2006, a woman named Amy Eddy, who's in the documentary, who's 22 and was first married to Tony at 14. She escapes and flees to Oklahoma. The whole time she believes that God is going to strike her down for leaving him and send her to hell. And then a 15 year old named Desiree Colback escapes as well. She gets help from her aunt to leave because her mom also was still in the cult. So being 15 years old and being like, I need to escape this abuse. Like what? Pushes you to that level.

• 1:04:57Karen Kilgariff?

  What horrors have you seen?

• 1:04:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. And like, it's better for me, for God to like, smite me than turn me to keep saying, like, how could it get worse? I don't care anymore. And Desiree had been the eight-year-old victim, who was now 15. Both women are approached by the FBI. Initially, Amy is too scared, but Desiree, she is terrified too, but she agrees to testify against Tony because her sister, her little sister, is still in the cult.

• 1:05:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:05:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's like, I need to save her.

• 1:05:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:05:27Georgia Hardstark?

  She testifies that Tony took photos of his victims, of course, many whom were underage, and also took the girls across state lines. So like, that's enough because those are federal crimes. So they're able to create a strong federal case against Tony, finally.

• 1:05:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so finally, in 2008, federal agents raid Tony's house in, it's called FAWK, Arkansas?

• 1:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  FAWK!

• 1:05:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:05:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pronounced FAWK.

• 1:05:53Georgia Hardstark?

  FAWK. Tony's not there. He knew the raid was gonna happen, blah, blah, blah. They don't find the photos Desiree had been talking about, but they find other incriminating things, like a lot of wedding rings and like, boxes of ovulation tests. Just like creepy as shit.

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Gross. And also just a sign that like, it's, we're now at the end of the line with this cult leader. It's like, this is the

• 1:06:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He did it.

• 1:06:15Karen Kilgariff?

  usual wind out.

• 1:06:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:06:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it always goes to child brides. It always goes to

• 1:06:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He did it. He did what?

• 1:06:22Karen Kilgariff?

  He did the whole thing.

• 1:06:23Georgia Hardstark?

  He did the whole

• 1:06:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Dead body.

• 1:06:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. So he's 74 at this point.

• 1:06:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:06:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And fucking gross, obviously.

• 1:06:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Lifelong.

• 1:06:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And so he has a secret cellphone now, again, FBI. Basically, they find him at a hotel in Flagstaff, Arizona. He's indicted on 10 counts of interstate transportation of a minor for sex. And in addition to Desiree, Amy does get over her fear and ultimately testifies against him, as do three other so-called wives. By the time the case goes to trial, at least 30 people are willing to testify against him.

• 1:06:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing.

• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Finally, like, let's end this. And many of the witnesses still have family in the cult, but they're just, they now know what's actually going on, or, you know, yeah. So Tony is found guilty on all counts in 2009 and sentenced to the rest of his life in federal prison. He also loses a civil case against his victims and is ordered to pay more than 1.1 billion dollars to them.

• 1:07:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:07:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Tony dies in prison in 2017, but the church isn't completely defunct. Despite all of that, it still has some locations and they continue to recruit new members. As recently as 2018, there was a chapter in New York City.

• 1:07:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, wow. Yeah.

• 1:07:38Georgia Hardstark?

  What do you need?

• 1:07:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy.

• 1:07:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Therapy. And unfortunately, as recently as 2018, when everything had come out about the foundation, those now vintage Alamo jean jackets.

• 1:07:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:07:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Have a resurgence amongst celebrities. So I'm not going to say who they are because maybe they don't know about the abuse.

• 1:08:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It might not be because.

• 1:08:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Yeah. It's just like an 80s thing and they don't know the background. So I won't say, but one recently sold for $950 on Etsy.

• 1:08:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, to me, that makes me think of like the John Wayne Gacy paintings selling.

• 1:08:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:08:16Karen Kilgariff?

  There are those people that are like, can you believe I'm doing this? It's so taboo.

• 1:08:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally. And that is the story of the Alamo Christian Foundation.

• 1:08:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God.

• 1:08:27Georgia Hardstark?

  The documentary again is called Ministry of Evil: The Twisted Cult of Tony Alamo. We binged it. I mean, Jesus fucking Christ.

• 1:08:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Unbelievable. It just wouldn't end.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Like, what? Like, pick a, pick a, pick a like, this is as far as I go and write it in your diary.

• 1:08:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Me playing a psychopath. No, I will not. I will. Not only that, I'll succeed.

• 1:08:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, the members, though. I don't mean the head.

• 1:08:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. But once you're in, I mean, like, that's that thing where like, people have to be deprogrammed to get out of cults.

• 1:08:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And the deprogramming, like, there's actually a guy who becomes a deprogrammer in that time period and the tactics they use are like, fucking horrible, like.

• 1:09:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, they kidnap people. Yeah, it's bad.

• 1:09:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not any better.

• 1:09:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything's so bad.

• 1:09:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything's so bad.

• 1:09:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Been so bad for so long.

• 1:09:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Everyone's like, oh, this is the worst time in history. And it's like, no. History is the worst time.

• 1:09:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's been pretty bad.

• 1:09:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's been bad for a lot of people for a long time.

• 1:09:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Speaking of which, should I just save my story for the next episode?

• 1:09:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that was a lot, and that was plenty and great.

• 1:09:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. I'm sorry that was so long, but yeah.

• 1:09:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's okay.

• 1:09:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Do you want to do a solo next week?

• 1:09:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I liked it. Absolutely.

• 1:09:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck yeah.

• 1:09:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell yeah. Our homework's done. We love that.

• 1:09:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you for joining our cult. It's funny that we did it. Oh my God. I didn't even realize. We did a pitch to join our cult.

• 1:09:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:09:50Georgia Hardstark?

  The fan cult. And then I did a cult story. We've just talked shit on cults the whole time, but I mean, come on. This is a fun cult.

• 1:09:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Did the Alamo cult have ad-free podcast episodes? I don't think so, ladies and gentlemen.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they didn't. Did you get a discount on merch? Did you get first access to live show tickets from the Alamos? No. No. Italian hand gesture. No.

• 1:10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Good or bad, Italian hand gesture. Well, we'll meet you next time.

• 1:10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Thank you, guys, for listening to that long-ass story of horrible things. We appreciate you so much.

• 1:10:23Karen Kilgariff?

  We love you dearly. Stay sexy.

• 1:10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:10:38Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:10:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

• 1:10:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:10:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

• 1:10:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:10:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:11:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

• 1:11:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the season of green.

• 1:11:15Georgia Hardstark?

  This year, Ryobi has the deals you've been waiting for and the perfect gift for everyone on your list.

• 1:11:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Stick vacuums for that post-holiday mess, leaf blowers for tidying up the yard, speakers, fans, drills, nailers, and even snow blowers. Ryobi has it all.

• 1:11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Big savings and more gifts than ever before.

• 1:11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Right now, when you buy a select Ryobi kit, you get another tool free.

• 1:11:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Find your green at ryobitoles.com/murder.

• 1:11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's R-Y-O-B-I. Ryobi. Only at The Home Depot.

• 1:11:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:11:46Speaker 03

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• 1:11:59Speaker 04

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• 1:12:44Speaker 04

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:12:46Speaker 06

  Parents and grandparents, if you want a gift that won't be forgotten by New Year's, give a Guardian bike. Guardian bikes are built just for kids. Lightweight, low to the ground, with a wide wheelbase for balance. Most kids learn to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. Their patented SureStop brake stops both wheels with a single lever, helping prevent head-over-handlebar falls. It's the number one kids' bike on the market, designed and assembled in the USA, and the New York Times Wirecutter's top pick four years in a row. This holiday, save over 40% on kids' bikes. Plus, get $100 in free accessories: a lock, pump, bell, grips, and clamp. The stocking stuffers, covered. They have helmets and adult bikes too,

• 1:13:30Speaker 06

  so the whole family can ride. Join over a million happy riders at guardianbikes.com. That's guardianbikes.com.