Kai Lenny: The World's Most Versatile Surfer On Adventure, Risk, & Turning Fear Into Fuel

Kai Lenny is the greatest and most versatile waterman the world has ever known. A Maui-born and bred athlete of extraordinary skill, he pushes the boundaries of possibility at the highest levels in not just surfing—performing maneuvers and aerials never believed possible with regularity—but also as a kiteboarder, foiler, outrigger canoer, and as big wave rider. Kai doesn’t just ride the world’s most fearsome waves—he conquers them. Like a maestro of the ocean who channels nature’s ferocity into art, he carves down 80-foot plus cliffs of water with physics-defying maneuvers previously thought only possible on small waves with a flair, joy, and an intensity that can only be described as balletic. He’s the GOAT and he’s here today to let us in on his crazy world, the visualization and mindset tools he uses to hone his craft, and what the future holds both for himself and the sport of surfing. There’s a lot to be learned from Kai’s experience, his pursuit of mastery, and his approach to physical, mental, and emotional excellence. I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Momentous: LiveMomentous.com/RICHROLL GoMacro: GoMacro.com Inside Tracker: InsideTracker.com/RICHROLL Plant Power Meal Planner: https://meals.richroll.com Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  In order to pass through heaven, you have to go through hell. In order to get to the other side of fear, you have to pass right through it. I've always thought, I want to be a world champion in multiple sports. I wanted to invent the things that I ride. I set a goal that's outlandish and maybe impossible. If those targets feel too grand and big, I just go back to the basics. I remind myself, everything's baby steps. And all of a sudden, I end up where I was supposed to go. I'm like, this isn't that hard. It's because I did all the right things along the way. Kai Lenny has won the biggest wave award. I like competition because it becomes sort of like a little game. And that, I think, pushes my innovation. You see who you really are in that moment.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  I've been disappointed and I've also been like kind of blown away with the person I've become.

• 2:05Rich Roll?

  There are surfers and then there are watermen. Watermen are masters of waves and all water-related pursuits and crafts, distinguished for their deep understanding of the ocean and their respect, their reverence for its various moods and its always-changing conditions. And no one embodies this definition better than Kai Lenny, the greatest and most versatile waterman and wave rider the world has ever known. That might sound like hyperbole, but it's true. You're going to discover this very soon, but first...

• 2:47Rich Roll?

  So who is this guy? Well, Kai is a Maui-born-and-bred athlete of just extraordinary skill, finesse, and diversity. He's an innovator par excellence, as well as an absolute virtuoso, who landed his Red Bull sponsorship at 13, won eight Stand Up Paddle World Championships, and continues to push all the boundaries of possibility at the absolute highest levels of not just traditional surfing, performing maneuvers and aerials never believed possible with regularity, but also as a kiteboarder, a hydrofoiler, an outrigger canoeer, and yes, a big wave surfer. Not only does Kai excel at riding the world's most feared big waves,

• 3:32Rich Roll?

  waves 80 feet and bigger across the world like Mavericks and Nazaré in his backyard break jaws, unlike the other standouts in this curious subculture, he doesn't just ride them, he doesn't just survive them. This guy is a prodigy, a maestro of the ocean, who channels nature's ferocity into art, carving death-defying cliffs of water with the same physics-defying maneuvers previously thought only possible on small waves, and doing it all with a flair, with a joy, and an intensity that can only be described as balletic.

• 4:12Rich Roll?

  He is the best in the world for his accomplishments, for his innovations, both technical and athletic, for his relentless pursuit of progressing the sport beyond the envelope, and for the rigorous approach he takes to his career and performance, from mindset to training to visualization, which you can see in detail in the three seasons of Life of Kai from Red Bull TV on YouTube. He is the GOAT. He's here today to let us in on his crazy world, what it's like, how he got there, how he does what he does, and what the future holds, both for himself and the sport of surfing in all its myriad forms, and most poignantly, what we can learn from his experience, his

• 4:56Rich Roll?

  pursuit of mastery, his philosophy, his approach to physical, mental, and emotional excellence that can elevate our relationship to craft, to sport, to career, to life. So without further ado, this is me and Kai Lenny.

• 5:19Rich Roll?

  The experience of riding big waves, it's really hard for anybody who doesn't do what you do to even fathom what that feels like or what that experience is all about. We see the videos and the images of Mavericks and Jaws and now Nazaret with the lighthouse, and it's just so insanely dramatic. But I would imagine being there, like at the lighthouse watching, would be an entirely different situation, let alone the experience of being towed in. And what do people not understand about what that is like to drop in on a 70, 80-foot wave?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  You know, I think everything is just turned up to 100 in terms of sensory overload. When you wipe out on a giant wave, it's sort of like static on a television. At a certain point, your nerves can't feel any more. It just becomes numb. And the greatest fear really comes from within your own brain, the fear of like, how deep am I right now? Am I going to come up before the next wave? And I guess wiping out in a wave, you have to do the exact opposite of what you feel like you do. Most of the time you wipe out, there's an urge to want to claw and scratch to the surface, like, I need to get out of here. But you're going up against an...

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Unimaginable powerful force that you can't battle until it lets you go. And so you have to almost go limp and pretend you're, you know, I guess the best analogy is like people that get into severe car accidents, you know, let's say it's a drunk driver. It's usually fine and it's the people that are sober that aren't and it's because they stiffen up.

• 6:59Rich Roll?

  They're limp.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  You know, and whereas like in big waves, I've trained myself to the point where when I fall, I go completely limp and it's amazing how flexible you get when your muscles aren't, you know, firing, you know, that they're not, you know, you're just completely relaxed and I've had the back of my hand touch my back and I can't do that normally because my muscles are what's pulling it over there, but when you're so relaxed, it can just kind of go all the way around and, and you don't get hurt, but it's when you're trying to like fight it, you blow a shoulder out, you know, or something happens, you get way more tweaked. So I literally feel like a tomahawking starfish underwater, just like, you know, just sort of letting it happen. And I have a pretty good awareness of what is around me, surrounding. So like, let's

• 7:43Speaker 01

  say a rogue jet ski is flying through the whitewater. I can sort of sense it. It's weird. It's like a spidey sense in a way and I can like put my hand up real quick or I can kind of have a sense where my board might be underwater based on how I fell or, you know, where my leash is pulling or something. So I can kind of block it if I have to real quick. It's kind of just a karate chop and then back to limp. And so that's the wipeout portion, but like actually riding the wave, the speeds are insane. I mean, when we're riding out at Nazaré, I'm easily doing 55, 60 miles per hour and you're going over the chop and to train for something like that's really, really difficult because all year long, you're riding waves that are, you're maybe going 20 miles per hour, 23 miles per

• 8:28Speaker 01

  hour. That's like being on a good wave where you're pumping down the line and you're flying and, you know, the chops aren't the same. Whereas, you know, the chops coming up a Nazaré wave are as big as waves I was surfing all summer.

• 8:38Rich Roll?

  Twice as, twice as fast, more than twice as choppy, right? So you're hitting speed bumps the whole time at twice the speed.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and usually.

• 8:48Rich Roll?

  And twice as steep.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Twice as steep, yeah. So like, I can, I do go behind my wave runner and get towed in on flat water to test my equipment, or I'll use my kite to go really fast. And kiting has been, kiting and windsurfing have been sort of the closest to get that sensation of hitting big chops and bouncing and having, learning the control of it. But, you know, until you're going down a vertical wall, that's like, getting close to 90 degrees at times, you know, it's like a completely different sensation. There's a free-falling feeling and it's like, usually your first wave's like shocking. I'm like, I'm like, how did I even do those airs or ride the barrel, you know, like, my first few waves, I'm like, I just feel like I could

• 9:30Speaker 01

  barely stand on my board. And then, usually by the end of that session, or the next day, I'm like, okay, like, I've, I've kind of found my comfort zone again. Here's a massive chop, why not try doing an aerial like Travis Rice would do in Alaska? You know what I mean? Like, because at a certain point, riding a big wave going straight can, kind of can, to me, it gets boring if you're going straight the whole time.

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  Right, which is, just like, like, pause for a moment, like, that's insane, because the history of big wave surfing has been about, can we survive it? Can it be ridden at all? And now, we've established that, you know, these waves, it is possible to do that, and you're elevating it with all these maneuvers and these aerials and all these other things that, you know, as we said earlier, were really reserved for small waves. So, you know, how did that begin? For you to say, like, just to ride the wave is boring, is like bananas.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I think, I mean, it's just different for everybody, but I guess I've been doing it long enough where, you know, I just see the potential. And the most potential for performance gain in any sport that I participate in is on big waves. You know, it's the ultimate canvas. I mean, there's no reason why you can't be doing doubles or triple flips like Shaun White would do in a half-pipe, you know? It's something that is totally doable. But it's like the fear factor of hitting a 50-foot lip, you know, and trying to fly through the air. And it's not like a half-pipe where, you know, it's going to be the same as when you come down. It's moving. It's moving at 25 miles an hour. And so that's an interesting dynamic of these waves, too, and in development of

• 11:03Speaker 01

  equipment, but then also trying to figure out how you can do these maneuvers, because you're on a wave that's moving 25 miles an hour, and then you're moving another, let's say 30 miles an hour down the wave. And then your board is experiencing another 10 to 15 miles per hour of hydraulic, you know, suction of water being sucked up the face. Like, there's like another dynamic of how the water's being drawn off the reef and pulled vertically. So it's like, there's so much going on. So I think, you know, when you're hitting the lip of this wave, you feel, the feedback you're getting through your feet and, you know, what you're seeing with your eyes, you feel like you're going much faster than you really maybe are. I mean, you're going 50 miles an hour, but it feels like you're going 70.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Um, and so there's like, getting comfortable with the feeling of going that fast. And then, you know, it's like, it's forgetting the wave is as gnarly as it is. It's just, it's, you're not even really seeing it. It's behind you most of the time. So it's just focusing on what's in front of you. It's like, oh, like, I can land this chop hop, this Air 360, 10 out of 10 times. Every, I don't know the last time I fell on a, doing it on a small wave. But when you get on a big wave of consequence, you might second guess yourself and kind of take off kind of funny and land slow and then the wave could overcome you. And so, but it's about like, not focusing on everything around you. It's like, allowing yourself to get tunnel visioned, you know?

• 12:31Speaker 01

  And then do the trick, land, and then get the peripheral back. And be able to see like, over here without, but still looking forward. So you can get like a scale of where you are. And then it's like, getting tunnel vision again, so you can like, pick apart the wave. And I just look at it, I've said it a few times already, but like, a canvas and you're the paintbrush. And you, I look at performance over the danger of the ride, you know? The criticalness of the wave. I just look at, what could you do? Like, what would I normally think of doing on this wave?

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Right, so there's this risk analysis. And you're sort of like this love child of Alex Honnold and Shaun White. Like, you, you have the high consequences of like, free soloing. Um, but you're trying to do kind of half-pipe stuff on these massive waves. And one of the things that I've, I've heard you talk about, that it wouldn't have occurred to me, is, is... is like the relationship with space and time that a big wave affords you like on a small wave everything is very compacted and it happens very quickly but suddenly on this big wave you actually have like time time slows down but also there's more decisions that you can make and you can you can literally yeah like sort of chill out like that I've heard you talk about like oh yeah now it's it's mellow

• 13:47Speaker 01

  totally I mean one of my motivations to become the best small wave surfer I could possibly be is the fact that when you're surfing a small wave you can't think there's no time it's all off of kind of like going from maneuver to maneuver and sort of like just going with it you know you're not you're not really being like I'm gonna slam this lip so hard and then I'm gonna go do an air at the end the best type of surfing those waves is when you don't know what's sort of happening it's just sort of it's like your body's almost kind of taking you and you're watching it as a movie you know like obviously you know you have to like tell your body what to do but it's you know the reaction time in small waves is instant like you can't think about it for too long otherwise you've missed your opportunity it's just

• 14:32Speaker 01

  you're just going through the motions it's almost like muscle reflex of like training and so much that these are the type of maneuvers you would do in that section and you take those cues and you just do them your body just does it whereas on a giant wave you have like five seconds dropping in to really think about what you're gonna do like I could see a chop coming and it could be taking so long and actually the perfect example is um and this is a crazy phenomenon that's happens at Nazaré is that you know you actually when you're it's such a different wave to compared to like Pei Ahi or a Mavericks where you know these waves are more traditional like Jaws is more like backdoor pipeline it's a real it's like a six foot wave

• 15:16Speaker 01

  that's that's 60 feet tall right so it's a perfect big wave the most perfect big wave I've ever surfed and you know so you can see everything that's happening you see the wall it bends around you all the cues are the same as a small wave okay it looks like it's gonna barrel now oh okay this is a turning section whereas Nazaré is like A giant pyramid. It really is kind of a rogue wave because the biggest waves, like unlike Jaws, the biggest waves break the farthest out. At Nazaré, the biggest waves actually break the farthest in.

• 15:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, it's, it is like a beach break, right?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  It's a beach, it's ocean beach, San Francisco on steroids.

• 15:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you see it, you see that pyramid and the whitewater is like right in the middle and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not even sure which way it's gonna break, right? Because it is these other, these, these multiple waves coming together. It could go left, it could go right, and you're, you don't even know.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Well, the biggest waves out there, what happens is the swell comes in through the biggest trench in Europe, which is 10,000 feet deep, right to shoreline.

• 16:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this Grand Canyon. What's the word that you use to start with a B?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  The thymytry?

• 16:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it sounded impressive.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, the bethymtry, which is like kind of the contour of the ocean floor. It's very unique. And there's a ledge, and what happens, happening is the swell can travel faster when it's not hitting the continental shelf. So, you'll see the biggest waves will be going past the break. They'll hit the trench, they'll swing in, they'll do like a 90-degree turn, and they'll be coming straight back towards you. And then, another wave that had traveled over the continental shelf will be coming. And, you know, depending on which peak you are, there's like a few peaks at Nazaré. There's first peak, which is right in front of the cliff. There's one and a half, which is in between peak number two. Which, peak number two is a giant right, if anyone's ever seen me surf Nazaré.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  It's that big barreling right that I got in, in the contest. But, anyway, there's, there's a lot to it. But the biggest waves, they end up connecting and making a rogue wave. So two waves come together and they'll double up and they'll double in size. So, when you're out waiting for the wave, the biggest waves aren't necessarily the biggest swell. It's like timing two different waves coming in together.

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  And, um, they break the farthest in and they jolt straight up into the atmosphere. And they're so big and tall that when they break, the lift can't actually make it to the bottom. And, I mean, it's the furthest thing from a mushburger that wave. That thing is like an avalanche. It, pound for pound, will be one of the worst wipeouts you'll ever take anywhere. But I think just videoed and doesn't do it justice. And everyone I've talked to that's gone to the cliff and, and seen it, because it's probably the closest viewing stage where you could actually see a big wave. You're just like, it's unbelievable. Because you see the, you see the, the playing field, right?

• 17:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Um, but, uh, you know, it's...

• 18:03Speaker 01

  When you're riding these waves, you definitely get the sense that you do have a lot of time, but it's also moving really, really fast.

• 18:11Rich Roll?

  And what about the fear piece? Like, how do you think about fear? How do you process it? How do you move through it?

• 18:18Speaker 01

  That's a good question, because a lot of my friends cope with fear through nervous laughter. And so you kind of laugh off the situation that you're in. You kind of make it, you're not disrespecting what you're doing by thinking it's like a joke, but you kind of like trick your mind into thinking it's sort of like, this is, oh my God, what are we doing? This is crazy. You know, I think the old school mentality, which is probably much cooler, was like, you know, God put me on this earth to ride these waves, and I'm here to ride them. You know, it's like, but to me, I couldn't.

• 18:55Rich Roll?

  Johnny Utah vibe?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  I just, just the old school. I think those guys were just cut from a different cloth. They were so gnarly, and they were just like old school grit, like mountain men, like kill the grizzly and, you know, eat it in their cave. You know what I mean? Like, they're just hardcore, you know, like, whatever. You know, I think maybe just my perception of them is so like big, but to me, that was like, their approach was like, you know, you could die out here. Just don't fall. You know, this is, this is real serious. And that was just, that was pretty rad. But for like, I guess the way I've approached it and my friends have approached it, it's been really like, oh my God, like, dude, did you see that? Oh, it's so gnarly, kind of a bunch of goofballs going out. And it's really funny, because you can see everyone's kind of goofing around,

• 19:41Speaker 01

  like, not goofing around, but sort of like, they're kind of like, like in awe of the situation. And everyone will switch right as they're committing to a wave. They'll go into that like warrior kind of mode. You can just see it on their face. It's like, dude, did you see that wave? That was awesome. And it's like, all right, go, go, go. You're calling your buddy into a wave, and all of a sudden, you'll see their face just go, they'll just lock in, and they're a completely different person, like completely different. And that's pretty cool to see. And then when they kick out, they're like, oh my God, that was so crazy. So it's like, they just wait, I think, longer to flip that switch to like, you know, that super serious mode, because it's hard to, I think it's really hard to maintain being like, super serious like that.

• 20:25Rich Roll?

  But still, there has to be those moments where you're in the lineup or you're ready to go and you have that, there's that moment where you're either gonna commit or you're gonna pull out. It's sort of like a super intense version of like when you're turning left into oncoming traffic. Can I make it through or do I wait for that car to go? Like, once you commit, it's game on. You can't pull out, right?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Well, that's a...

• 20:47Rich Roll?

  And you have to, you have to like have an appreciation for the consequences that are healthy enough for self-preservation, but also that, you know, that, you know, thing that's pushing you to the edge.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think that's like, you know, for me, it's, it's when I commit, it's 100% commitment. There's like no backing out. And I've learned the hard way, you know, you try to pull out and you don't go for a wave because it seemed like scary in the moment. And then there's a bigger one behind it and you wear it on the head. Or you, you like hesitate and you fall while you're riding the wave and you're like, that shouldn't happen. So it's like, when you do commit, it's full commitment. But, you know, for me, fear, the way I manage fear is like, most people think of it being kind of like a disabling sort of emotion. I look at it as sort of a superpower. And as I believe that the hardest things to do, you know, if it depends on if you're looking long-term or short-term. It's easier

• 21:46Speaker 01

  to do something short-term, you know, there's like an instant, you know, feedback. It's harder to do something long-term. You know, fear is sort of like, you kind of gotta manage it a similar way. It's the hardest emotion to control because it's overwhelming, flight or flight fear. Like, you first want to run. Second, if you have to, you will fight. But learning how to be like, able to turn on that fight mode immediately. If you can access fear and like, allow it to overcome you, and then kind of like, take all of that and like, compress it, and like, just hold on to it for a little bit, and then let it go, all of a sudden it disappears and you don't feel it anymore. All you feel is like, that's

• 22:28Speaker 01

  when I start feeling six foot six in the water. You know, is when I've sort of like... I've sort of like allowed it to kind of consume me in the ocean, in the channel, like before I'm out there or like before that big wave is. And it's like, you can do it through breathing, you know, it's like breathing through it. It's like hopping in an ice bath. You breathe through that kind of stress and, um, and then that fear, I think you can really turn into something that you can pull off things. And usually you're kind of questioning, how'd you pull that off? And it's like, well, the fear kind of helped me, you know, it's like, when I land that trick, I'm gonna freaking land it because I don't want to fall, you know, but versus it being like, oh, I'm so nervous. I don't want to fall. I'm scared of falling. Ah, you know, you're like, kind

• 23:11Speaker 01

  of get weak in the knees. It's like, ah, I'm landing this and I'm not falling, you know, it's like, there's like the fork in the road and it's hard to, to manage because sometimes, you know, you feel like, just depending where you're at, you can't overcome that fear the way you'd like. But when you do, it's the most freeing feeling ever. You don't, all you see is what you gotta do. And you don't see anything else. But you have to, you know, it's like my favorite Latin, um, one of my favorite Latin words is, um, uh, Acheron, which means, um, in order to pass through heaven, you have to go through hell. And so it's like, that's like, in order to get to the other side of fear, you have to pass right through it.

• 23:49Rich Roll?

  Does that not also involve having to balance, like, is this a fear impulse that's holding me back? Or is this my, you know, gut and my feel for my capabilities and the conditions and the ocean that's telling me, maybe not today. Like, I'm thinking about in Free Solo when Alex starts going up and then he's like, yeah, today's not the day. And he comes down, like, he knows himself well enough to know, like, yeah, I don't have it totally dialed. Like, that's not necessarily fear as much as it is, like, deep self-understanding.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, and I think, you know, it's, nothing is black and white. Most, the, the whole spectrum, there's a lot of gray areas. Most of it's gray areas. Like, black and white are just the ends of the spectrum, and, you know, you, you need ego to be able to, like, overcome certain things, but then you also need to kill your ego to understand where that edge is, or the line. And, um, and so, but it's like, it's being street smart, it's being logical, it's trusting your gut, but then also knowing when to push your gut feeling out of the way, because, you know, there, there's, the gut feeling can be sort of like mistaken for kind of that fear impulse, you know, like, like a signal.

• 25:08Rich Roll?

  Discern the difference between those two things.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Discern the difference, and, and I think our internal resistance is a master of trying to, like, deceive you. And, and that deception really comes a lot of the times, like, you gotta, so, it basically comes down to, you know, if you're ever interacting with somebody and they're really emotional, you get logical. And when someone's logical, you might hit them with some emotion, you know? Um, and that's the same way with yourself, I think, and it's like, it's like when I'm feeling kind of emotional about something, and like, my gut feelings tell me something, I kind of run through a checklist. It's like, I'm gonna be, what's, okay, logically, is this possible? Yes. Um, am I, how's my strike rate for making every drop?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  99%, you know, so you go through your little checklist in a millisecond in your head, and, and if it crosses all the boxes, you're like, you know, that's that fear impulse trying to hold me back.

• 26:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  But then sometimes the gut feeling, there are times where you're paddling and you wanna go, and then something's telling you, "Don't go." Like, just, like, something, like, in your stomach, you're just like, "Don't go." You know, and it's like, but it's, it's a difference between like, "Ah, don't go," to, to, to being like, really like, "Mm, no, don't go." Like, something, someone's telling you something, you know, like, you're getting a message from somewhere,

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  and you pull back, and then you watch the wave just completely close out and annihilate, and then you see there's a bigger one, you just scratch over, and you're like, "Man, if I went on that, I would have, like, what could have happened?" You know, but so, it's, it's a case by case, and sometimes you make the wrong call, but then you learn from it, and you're like, "Okay, well..." I can make that. I know I can make it. Next opportunity.

• 26:48Rich Roll?

  And how does having one-year-old twins change that analysis for you?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Well, now-

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  Or does it at all?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Well, since I had them last April, we, you know, I mean, I had all summer to sort of think about it. And, you know, I think there's two paths you can do. You can slowly kind of phase out or not do something that dangerous. But then, I always thought, setting an example for my kids to, you know, you have to, I think, you gotta follow what you love. And, and for me, as a father, I gotta show the strength of the family. And I gotta show the perseverance and the dedication and the work ethic. And, you know, I don't want to be somebody that my daughters think of as weak. You know, this is, I'm the example for them, you know? And, and to me, it just, it made me train harder. I just, basically, just did everything better.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Like, I'm training harder when I train. I'm training smarter. I'm much more meticulous. I'm much more focused. I'm better at the long term versus the short term. And, you know, there was swells, for sure, that when I, when I had to step into the ring, you know, go into the pit, where I was like, ah, like, it's just a weird feeling, you know? It's like, could, like, could I, could I not see my daughters ever again? But, then again, when you get underwater, you're, you know, before, you were only fighting for yourself. And it's pretty easy to give up on yourself, I think. Whereas, like, when you're fighting for something greater, something more, like your kids, you know, it's like, no, I'm gonna crawl, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to come up.

• 28:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  You know?

• 28:25Rich Roll?

  Another like yin and yang kind of thing.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And, um, my performance got 10 times better because of my kids. I'm like, and I'm way smarter and more logical, like, in my decision-making. Like, like, I can let go of, like, uh, this wave, my guts telling me not to go. And then maybe I should've gone, and it's like, alright, well, okay, the next one. I'm gonna be out here for 12 hours, you know, I got another opportunity. It's like, having the foresight to, to know that there's gonna be more opportunities and not being hung up on a missed opportunity. Because you're gonna miss opportunities, everyone does. It's just the nature of the game. Uh, and, and to me, though, like, coming out of the season, I feel like, I feel so confident and smart and better for it. Like, I just feel like everything I do is-

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Better because of them. Without them giving me anything directly, just them existing has made me a better athlete.

• 29:19Rich Roll?

  Tell me about your training. Aside from being in the ocean and riding waves, what does the regimen look like?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  I train in the gym five days a week and it really varies throughout the year. Sometimes it's more endurance based, so it's playing between being an endurance athlete and then like having really fast twitch muscles. And right now, since I'm focusing so heavily on being like physically strong, feel to handle a lot of the waves that I encounter and you know, being able to protect my joints from blowing out or I'm balancing the, I'm balancing doing some heavy lifting with being really light on the ground, be able to do, you know, flat standing backflips, doing air awareness sort of stuff to feel to have that spring.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  So when I land, I can, on a big wave, I can have the strength to handle the wave. I can have the strength to handle the chop, but I can also have that ability to be like a spring off the floor, you know, I can bounce off the water.

• 30:20Rich Roll?

  Explosive exercises to improve your explosive energy.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:24Rich Roll?

  But I would also think a lot of like stability core kind of stuff.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Totally, but I've been doing that since I was, I've been working out at the gym with my trainer Scott Sanchez since I was 12 years old and it's.

• 30:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's been, yeah, he's been your coach that whole time, right?

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was like, it would go like, I usually would do three days a week and you know, the motivation would go up and down, you know, when you're a kid, you're like just going through the motions and now, you know, it's like I'm asking for more usually. I'm like, oh, can we do this? You know, like I think this would help me a lot. And he's like, okay, settle down, you know, like hold up a little bit, but so I do that with Scott and you know, we also like, you know, I'll ride my road bike or mountain bike, you know, for endurance type to stuff. It's seasonal. Usually if the waves are good, it's like a lot more on the water stuff, but you know, it's like small challenges too that, that I consider training. It's, you know, going in the ice bath, you know, before a workout, which you could get the best training effect, you know, for lifting, you can actually get,

• 31:23Speaker 01

  or for explosivity, you can get the best muscle growth from doing an ice bath first, which is kind of like contrary to what it used to be. But I still do it before bed. And that's really important for me because it's like when I'm the most tired and I just want to go to sleep. It's like up in the ice bath.

• 31:43Rich Roll?

  It improves sleep though, for sure.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  It does, for sure. And then it's like, I make sure I read every day. I make sure that, and this is like brain stuff, right? So it's like, I'm always reading, I'm trying to learn the native language of, you know, my home, which is Hawaiian. You know, I don't have to, but it's like, I feel like it's, you know, learning a language is pushing your brains, you know? And, and then also since I go to Portugal so much and my toe partner Lucas Chumbo over there is Portuguese and I never know what he's saying, I'm like, I should learn some Portuguese. So it's like.

• 32:18Rich Roll?

  That's a rough one.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  It's, it's actually come a lot, Portuguese has come a lot easier than Hawaiian. Hawaiian's like really tricky because it's not Latin based. And so, you know, the words are like, you can understand the words, but you don't know the order of putting them, you know? So how do you speak it? You can understand it, but you might not be able to speak it. I think it's one of the most beautiful languages. But anyway, so it's like, the training stuff kind of comes down to mental stuff as well. But then, you know, like in on water stuff, it's changing my approach to like how I can maximize my performance.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Warm up on the beach for eight minutes and then that eight minutes I'm studying the lineup. I know exactly where the way, the best waves are going to be. So I know subconsciously where I'm going to be able to kind of like hang out, out in the lineup. And then it's a 20 minute warm up from when I paddle out. I surf basically that 15 minutes because it takes five minutes to get out there. I come in, I have to watch for 25 minutes, cool down, be like cold. And then go out for 25 minutes and put my best performance on. And that has really like helped me learn tricks fastest. Because like all 25 minutes on the beach, I'm just staring at waves, watching them and like imagining how I'm going to do it. So you're really like focused. But I mean, yeah, like, everything varies.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Like, the best big wave training if I have to do one thing for big wave training, only one thing, it'd be stand paddling, because it works everything from the soles of your feet all the way to the top of your head. You're constantly out of breath. It's endurance, but it's explosivity as well. It's balance. It's maneuvering a large board. So, I'll, you know, after the gym, I might go torture myself and go down to the harbor and do a bunch of laps and do it under time. And, you know, that's probably the loneliest type of training, just because you're just, you're just paddling and it's not fast. You know, you're going max nine miles an hour in flat water. So, it's like, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's challenging in that, in that respect.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  But, um, you know, as far as like breath-holding stuff, you know, it's pretty easy to train your lungs, um, doing, um, CO2, uh, tables. So, like, basically getting less and less of a big breath hold.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Um, and then doing the same amount of breath hold. Um, so the, the same, the shorter and shorter, excuse me, the shorter and shorter, um, breathe up to the same amount of breath hold. So, you start at like, if I'm gonna do a three-minute breath hold, for example, I'll, let's say I do at first two minutes and 30 seconds of holding my breath, and then I hold for three minutes. And then the next one, I do two minutes, 15 seconds. And then the next one, I do two minutes. Then I do one minute 30. And by the end, I only have 15 seconds to breathe up.

• 35:07Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  And then I still have to hold for three minutes.

• 35:09Rich Roll?

  Right. So, that short interval in between. Is that, is that like, uh, typical exercise that like freedivers would use to develop that? Or where does that come from?

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Freediving's good, because it gets you, it, it allows you to understand the anatomy of how your breath works and, and how to properly breathe through your stomach, then through your chest, and then filling your nasal cavities and your throat and your mouth and all that sort of stuff. And it's really good training to do. It doesn't apply directly to big wave surfing, because the best example of wiping out and holding your breath is, imagine running up a hill for 30 seconds as fast as you can. And then at the top, you have to hold your breath. Your heart rate's high, you're, you wanna breathe so bad, but you can't. And so, and, but you have to be relaxed. You have to go limp. You have to allow it to like flush through you, essentially. And so, the CO2 tables are really, I would say freedivers might work on longer breath hold, like...

• 36:03Speaker 01

  You know, people are blown away when they ask me, "How long can you hold your breath?" And I'm like, "Oh, the longest I've done it was like five minutes." And that's just through training. Like, you'd be surprised, a lot of people that, you know, are less athletic than me, kind of just have a day-to-day job that I've done training with, they can hold their breath for like eight minutes.

• 36:19Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  And sometimes-

• 36:21Rich Roll?

  It is trainable.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Oh, it's totally trainable. Like, pretty much any average person in a room, you can get them to two minutes, no problem. It just comes, it just comes to teaching them the right breathe up.

• 36:32Rich Roll?

  But in your case, it's really, it's about what happens if you get pushed under. So you're in a position to be able to like, you know, deal with that. But isn't it just as much about like down-regulating your, your like autonomic nervous system? So that you can figure, it's like a hack to calm yourself down in a, in a like a high-stress environment.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and for me, I, I learn everything through, I, I'm more of a physical learner. And, and so that's been an advantage in learning how to be comfortable underwater. Because I'm really aware of where my body is in space when I close my eyes. That's probably been trained from being thrown underwater. Like, I know exactly where my arms are and I can see, I can see it with my eyes closed, essentially. And so, in, in learning how to go completely relaxed, it's a cue for my brain to, to be like, "It's okay." Whereas if I start kind of doing any kind of movement underwater, that's like, goes against being absolutely calm, my brain might start freaking out. Um, and, and that's why, like,

• 37:35Speaker 01

  that like type of training, you know, it's good to do. Like, having, I can't hold my breath for five minutes, you know, like that in the back of your head. But it doesn't even matter. What's important is being able to, um, be able to hold your breath for a shorter period of time, but with less of a breath, because you're probably getting the wind knocked out of you with CO2 buildup in your lungs. That's that burning sensation that you feel in your lungs. And being able to, uh, just, like, you know, be comfortable in the most uncomfortable situation.

• 38:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and, and know, like, okay, like, I've been here before. I know I'll be able to like, deal with this.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah, no, totally. And it's like, and, and your legs have been working really hard because, uh, you know, I think- What people don't realize too is a lot of the equipment is twice as heavy that you're using. You know, you like the board itself is, you know, 20 pounds, 22 pounds. And so trying to move that versus something like and be able to train on the boards that you're actually gonna ride on. Like those boards do not work in small waves because they're too heavy, they're too narrow. You know, the tail, the weight is all in the tail. But if you go from surfing a six pound surfboard and then you go surf a 60 foot wave and you're riding a board that's 22 pounds, 20 pounds,

• 38:53Speaker 01

  and you're trying to do the same aerials, you're just like, your legs, the legs in surfing take the most oxygen. So kind of a rule of thumb when you wipe out on a big wave or any wave in general is you don't kick. If you're gonna swim, you just use your arms because your legs are gonna take most of the oxygen. And at the same time, now we have these amazing innovations in inflation vests. And anyone that has worn one in big wave surfing has never died. I mean, it's been close calls for sure, but it's that airbag, you know? We have CO2 cartridges and you pull it and it's airbag deploys. And, you know, we all train so we can run the stairs of the highest building in the biggest city. But, you know, we're gonna take the elevator first.

• 39:35Rich Roll?

  Nazaray, didn't you, you were in a situation where you couldn't pull the cord to inflate your vest when you went down?

• 39:41Speaker 01

  No, I pulled it, but it just didn't really make that much of a difference. And, you know, there's that YouTube video that I posted a while ago. It's, I had my GoPro Max filming and, you know, the, the rule of thumb goes, you know, the cameraman never dies. So if I was like, man, if I just filmed this whole thing, like, I'll be totally fine. And it was like finding hope in a hopeless place. You know, everything that could have gone wrong went wrong, you know? All my jet ski drivers like came for the rescue. They thought I was over here, but I was over there. And, you know, people commenting on the video was always like, why didn't you use a whistle? And I'm like, I actually have a whistle right here, but I was filming. And so I just started yelling at him to let him know, okay, I'm here.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  It wasn't like, "Help, save me!" It was more like, "I'm over here, like, hey, hey!" So you know where I'm at. So when you come around. But the problem with Nazaray, once you go in, takes like 10 minutes to get back out. By that time, I'm flushed out on the beach. So by the time I ended up getting flushed in, you know, it was like, I was already good. But it was like, you know, you have this camera and I'm like, "I'm about to capture something no one has ever captured before." So this is like really exciting. I would never put myself here on purpose. But now that I'm here, I gotta film the best I possibly can. So like every time I got wiped out underwater and I was like, felt like I was drowning. I was like, just hold on to the camera and all the screws on the mount, it was a custom mount, was like loosening up. I could feel the thing wiggling.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  I'm like, "If I lose this camera on the last wave, I am going to kill myself." Like, as I went through all this to lose the golden shot, you know what I mean? And then I waited like five days after to look at the footage, because I wanted to like, I knew it was gonna still be a lot more tame than what it looked like for real. Because GoPros tend to make 80-foot waves look like 8-foot waves. And, you know, to my surprise, the waves looked still pretty big. But, you know, I didn't want it to distort the actual feeling of like, "All right, I'm here right now." You know, like, gotta take it in. If you're gonna go through it, you might as well take it all in.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  We first met at this event at Surf Ranch, which was like two years ago, I think. And that was an event that was put on by GoPro. And it was an interesting day of surfing legends like yourself, but also all these mucky mucks from like the entertainment world and the business world, like people from Netflix and stuff like that. I have a very vivid memory of showing up early that morning. And I'm like, like a below-average surfer at best, who has not surfed very much in my life. And I kind of told the guys there like, hey, man, like I'm, I want to kind of backpedal this a little bit, like, let me just sort of watch for a while and get kind of like comfortable with what's going on before you throw me in.

• 42:42Rich Roll?

  And they're like, no problem, well, you'll go up in a heat in the afternoon. And then they ended up throwing me in the first heat with you.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:50Rich Roll?

  So I'm having like a panic attack because the last, all I'm thinking is if I wipe out and my board like hits Kai and he gets injured, like I'm just never gonna forgive myself, you know? So luckily I did not injure you and I got a chance to know you a little bit. And that was a super fun day. And I remember talking to Rymanah and he was saying that like Mark Zuckerberg would would occasionally like rent the whole place out, like he would fly in on a helicopter or whatever with his buddies and just like take the whole day there. And I know that like you're, you're a guy who all these billionaires like want to hang out with and foil with and surf with.

• 43:32Rich Roll?

  And I think you even like taught or went foiling with Zuckerberg in Kauai. And that just has to be like a surreal, among the many surreal, you know, things about your life, that has to be strangely kind of disorienting.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, when I started doing all these things, I just was a real product of my environment. And, you know, the motivation behind everything I'm still doing today is the love of just riding waves and riding it however many different ways. And so when people that are on, you know, a global level of influence, like a Mark Zuckerberg or, you know, somebody like takes interest in what I do. I mean, I, I think it just cements the fact that what I'm doing is probably the right thing, like the funnest thing anyone could do because, you know, it's, it's something that I get to fortunately do for a job and have support.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  But then, you know, you see a lot of people who work, you know, their whole lives just to be able to have the time or, you know, the ability to go surf or do other water sports like foiling and go to different places and stuff. So, yeah, when, when like. You know, someone like Mark, you know, hit me up once before. He, it was kind of like, wait, how does he even know who I am? You know, like, that's just crazy. Um, and it just seems like a completely different world. You know, I always felt like what I do is sort of outside of society's bubble. Cause you sort of leave the shoreline and you're out in the ocean and you're in mother nature. And, um, uh, you know, there's just no sort of rules. I mean, there, I guess there's some maritime rules, you know?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  But for the most part, you kind of can go out and be free, like true freedom. And, um, that's always been my draw, especially in big waves, because big waves are, um, unmanageable. But yeah, like being able to go, you know, foil and ride with these crazy people. It's definitely in, interesting and also inspiring just to kind of be able to pick their brains. And you try to understand how their mind works. Cause mine works so differently.

• 45:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  And I, I personally love meeting everybody, um, you know? Even if they may be considered controversial, it's like, you don't really know somebody until you meet them in person. Um, and it's really cool to, uh, be able to just know that in my life, I've been able to meet all walks of life. From, you know, just the hardcore surfer kid, maybe the, you know, Indonesian rainforest. To like all the way to one of the most influential, powerful people. Um, but you know, generally I've had great experience with just about everybody. Cause it's not about anything else, except for, you know, the whole time you're talking about having fun and surfing and foiling.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  And, you know, riding the wind and, you know, it comes from a very pure place. And it just feels like you're on the playground, you know? So, and I think that's why a lot of people are drawn to what I do is because that's, it's just about having fun at the end of the day.

• 46:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the opportunity, although your worlds are so different, you're, you sort of operate like a modern day explorer on some level. Um, and, and, you know, from an outsider looking in at your life, it appears that you have like this freedom to play. And to your point, you know, that's something that, you know, most people maybe get a taste of once a year or on a weekend. Or like on their vacation or something like that. So there's something kind of really alluring and appealing about that. But then to be in the company of other high performers in different fields. I'm curious as to whether, like, even though the disciplines are so different, there must be common strains of like, how do you do something no one's ever done before?

• 47:21Rich Roll?

  How do you think about the world and possibility and innovation? You know, there has to be like parallels with that.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  I think the parallel is like, kind of that undying passion for what, you know, field you're actually doing. Like, for me, it's like, it's so in the moment, like, ride away for 30 seconds, and how good can you be on that wave? Like, it doesn't, it's maybe not the pyramid that'll last the test of time, but in that moment, it's like the most pure feeling. But when you talk to, or when I have the opportunity to talk to these guys, it makes me kind of wonder, it's like, gosh, if I took a different, you know, path in life and my interests didn't fall in being, you know, consistently athletic, or, you know, it was maybe more in, whatever,

• 48:09Speaker 01

  computer science sort of stuff, or just anything, like innovations in other fields, then I might be able to, you know, have risen to the top in that field, because I feel like, if you're always sort of thinking about it, you got, you have to force yourself to like, give a rest, so that you could have these fresh ideas, but at the same time, you're not gonna stop until you kind of fulfill whatever goal or dream that you have. And, you know, when one goal or dream is accomplished, I tend to nearly forget about the one I just accomplished, and it's always on to the next thing.

• 48:41Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  So it's been a real lesson to sort of like, reflect and understand, it's like, oh, where did, you know, where have I come from? What has been accomplished, you know, almost as motivation, like, okay, I can continue to, you know, strive to do different things. And, you know, when I was a kid, I always thought, I wanted to be, you know, three things, a world champion in multiple sports, I wanted to... Invent the things that I ride. And there was one more, it slipped in my mind right now. But I mean, really, it was like, if I could invent things that could change the world. I didn't realize that I would just be, I guess, changing my world and subsequently maybe changing some of my friends' world, you know?

• 49:22Speaker 01

  And then, I guess you change the world with some of the equipment that world changers, you know, experience. You know, someone who like, like a mark or somebody who, you know, invents a social platform that, you know, you can reach the whole world. And it's like, well, their whole ocean experience has changed because they're riding this hydrofoil that, you know, I had a part in sort of innovating because I saw it as a gray area in the sports that I did. And it's always been about finding those gray areas and trying to figure out how you could make something work in there. So, you know, it was like you had, you know, this one time in surfing where the waves were never good for high-performance things. So, being my goal is to always be high-performance.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  How do you make a piece of equipment that isn't just riding a wave and going straight because the waves don't allow you to do more? And, you know, thinking on, you know, the pioneers before me in my respective sport, like the Laird Hamiltons, the Rush Randalls, Dave Colomas, that strap crew from Maui. Sure. You know, their goal with the hydrofoil, for example, was to ride the biggest waves ever ridden. And then, you know, one day I sort of had an epiphany after paddling between all the islands my entire life, you know, for a solid 15 years. I was like, how could I make this less brutal and miserable? You know, it's the ultimate test, but you end up spending so much time by yourself in these channels, these great bodies of water that, you know, I want something high-paced,

• 50:50Speaker 01

  something that's like riding a Jaws wave. And it's like, well, instead of riding the biggest wave ever ridden on a hydrofoil, could I ride the smallest wave ever ridden? Which is these soft, open ocean swells between the islands that vary from six inches high to, you know, 20 feet high. But most of the time, it's like, pretty small. And so, you know, I think in my path to trying to find something really fun and high-performance that could fill that void or that gray area in high-performance wave riding, you know, something kind of came out of it that, you know, inspired, you know, not just my friends, but, you know, the people that... Are innovators in their respected areas to take it on and do it.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  And to me, that's the ultimate reward. I could care sort of less about if I'm known as the person that actually invented it to the wider audience. It's more like, wow, it's successful because everyone wants to do it. So it means I was right about my quest for wanting to have fun.

• 51:50Rich Roll?

  I love this idea of always looking for like the third door, the back door, no matter the conditions. Where can I try to find a way to innovate or find performance irrespective of the conditions, rather than just sitting at home and looking at the weather report and waiting until it's ideal or perfect. And then innovating in that space and the impact, the kind of ripple effects, to extend the wave metaphor, like beyond just athletic performance, surfing and exposing new modalities to everybody else in the world.

• 52:27Rich Roll?

  I think there's a broader conversation around just how that changes the lens through which people perceive what's possible. Like when they see you doing things on big waves that no one thought possible or would only be reserved for smaller waves, or seeing you channel crossing on a hydrofoil or doing things that no one's ever done, I think it just shifts, it shifts the whole culture in terms of how we look at our own limits in whatever our respective field is. And that's part of, I'm sure, the allure or the magnetism for some of these ballers out there who are like, yeah, I see the world in the same way. We do different things, but what is possible?

• 53:11Rich Roll?

  Instead of like, oh, you can't do that. Well, let's find a way how we can do that.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, and I totally agree on that. And everyone finds their inspiration in different ways. Usually, a form of resistance is a good thing for a while, just because it forces you to step out of your shell. And I've always been somebody that prefers to take the back door versus like walking in the front door, because that's that beaten path. But taking the rail next to the freeway and might take a little longer to get to the destination but you know what you learn along the way could be far more valuable and you know as far as like innovations go and I can only speak on my experiences it's you know a lot of the way the equipment has evolved for me over kind of

• 54:00Speaker 01

  my career is based on kind of going between different sports and learning from different sports and then taking that and applying it over here and you know trying to not think literally outside the box like sitting there trying to think about it but finding yourself in these situations that force you to kind of see something that might have been right in front of your face all along.

• 54:23Rich Roll?

  So what would be an example of where you saw something in another sport and then lifted that and applied it to your world?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  I mean on a tiny scale but it actually evolves to a much larger one you know it basically for example what I've learned through windsurfing and the technology that a windsurf shaper is able to make on a board has directly affected how my big wave boards have been developed that are very, very different to what the traditional you know design is and there's nothing wrong with those traditional designs but there's just a certain way you can ride them and you know as the sport has evolved into bigger and larger waves and has moved further away from the traditional big wave breaks like Waimea Bay

• 55:11Speaker 01

  you know to kind of the most intense heavy situations at a place like Peahe AKA Jaws or a Nazre you know there's a handful of big wave breaks in the world that are kind of in a different league of their own due to the canyon and the bathymetry of the ocean that allows these swells you know it's kind of a perfect storm of you know coincidences that allow one place to sort of pop off and you know it you know on a small kind of something that's affected me largely is beyond just the boards is the fins you know like I'll take windsurfing concepts which to explain like in surfboard

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Let's say you have four fins on a board. The front fin is typically larger than the back fin. That's a very good, low-end, like, speed-producing concept. It's great for smaller waves. But as you put it into larger waves where you're hitting speeds on a 10-foot gun, a 10-foot gun's basically that rhino-chasing surfboard. You end up experiencing turbulence and

• 56:20Speaker 01

  the water starts to boil around the fins and that disturbance, that cavitation, affects the rear fins, which is instability. And, you know, the funny thing about being a surfer is, a big-wave surfer in particular, but, you know, just a surfer that rides all equipment is, you become a meteorologist, you start to learn physics, not through traditional methods of like math, but you start to learn the physics of how things sort of work, I would say, maybe in more artistic form. And then you end up surrounding yourself with people who could put everything you're experiencing into numbers and you can quantify it and you could replicate it and you can adjust. And it's about knowing those dynamics. So, to get to the point, you know, having my fins from my windsurfboards

• 57:02Speaker 01

  that are completely opposite to a traditional four-fin, big-wave gun, I put the bigger fins in the back and smaller fins in the front to, you know, basically have the way the water flows. I watch, say, Formula One. You would think that Formula One and surfing wouldn't, you know, coincide. And there's two ways of looking at surfing. It's the spiritual pursuit, which I still do, I would say, most of the time. It's going with your friends, finding a wave, having no one else around, no cameras, no nothing, and living the dream, right? But then there's the fun part of the innovations. And with Formula One, there's a lot of parallels aerodynamically. I mean, air itself is just a really light fluid, you know? And when you look at being in the water, and I'm not sure my math is, I'm not sure my math is totally accurate on this,

• 57:46Speaker 01

  but like, for every 10 miles an hour of water pressure that you're experiencing, or that your equipment's experiencing, that's like 100 miles an hour in air. So let's say I'm going 50 miles an hour on a big wave. My board or my fins experiencing, you know, 500 miles an hour of, you know, atmospheric pressure around those fins. So, you know, that really fascinates me. So I'm always looking at the cars and trying to, they're always talking about aerodynamics. And, you know, the parallel with Formula One and what I do, it's like... Taking technology and peak athletic performance and combining it and seeing what you get.

• 58:22Rich Roll?

  As an innovator, there's the innovations that you're pushing as an athlete with your maneuvers and the aerials and how you ride a wave and turning that experience into some kind of, you know, some form of art. And then there's the technological innovations which get super technical and, you know, we see you with your shaper and your boards do look different than everyone else's and obviously you're a Red Bull athlete and I'm thinking about Formula One and I was at the Austin GP last year and we're in the Mercedes garage and we're getting kind of a tutorial on, you know, the, all the different kind of, I don't even know what you call them, the foils on the car, right?

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  Like on the front and in the back, the wings and how they can pull them out and, you know, shift them by millimeters based upon driver feedback to, you know, achieve a certain specific result. And there's just a gigantic team of people and, you know, however many hundreds of millions of dollars behind the development of those cars. And there's so much that can be learned about that aerodynamics versus hydrodynamics and you taking that into your discipline. But it's a different scenario because it's really this intimate relationship that you have with your shaper, right? How you communicate what you want, how that translates. Like, I'm imagining these Formula One cars and they're in wind tunnels and they got all these engineers and, you know, whoever else like dialing it in.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  You know, I have a really good crew around me and, you know, it's pretty awesome because my shaper, he has his own factory. It's in the jungle of Haiku on Maui, you know?

• 59:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, in like a cannery or something, right?

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a canner, an old pineapple cannery and it's just, it's, I mean, the crazy thing is, is, you know, it's, it's actually really cool. It's sort of like, you know, you go out into, basically into the jungle and you find this cannery and what they're actually doing technologically for surfing and for actually water sports, you know, he's, he's been pushing the limits of like just carbon composites and just, you know, different innovations for the boards that I do ride that. You know, all my boards are painted the same.

• 1:00:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  But it sort of hides the fact, all the hidden stuff that we've been kind of putting in there to make it work to allow me to perform better. And you know, if I look at kind of, you know, two different pieces, you know, you're, there's the artist and then there's the guy that's trying to, you're trying to engineer it and you really gotta separate those two and have them in buckets. Because if you kind of try to go out and you're like overthinking your equipment and you're not allowing it just to do, you're not allowing it to be the paintbrush on that giant canvas of a wave.

• 1:01:02Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  You know, you can distract yourself and get away out of the, the feeling, you know, like it's about finding the rhythm.

• 1:01:09Rich Roll?

  Head and heart, right? Like how do you, like, how do you just be present with what it is that you're doing? Because if you're in your head, when you're, you're not going to be able to do the thing that you do if you're thinking about it.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  You gotta do, whether it's like the physical training aspect, you know, up until the day you have to compete or you have to perform on, you know, the 50 year storm or the 100 year swell.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  You know, the lead up to that, you have to be able to let go. And Kelly Slater talked about it a lot when he, you know, finally won his seventh world title. And you know, subsequently went all the way to 11 world titles, which is just phenomenal. You know, the, there's a point when you gotta, and I think this applies to everything in life, is you do all the hard work, the heavy lifting, and you gotta know when to like almost stop, you know, and, and let go. And know that all that work is in your DNA now. It's all in your brain. You're not accessing it, because things in the water, especially in big waves, happen so fast. If you're already thinking through the process, it's probably too late. It has to be like kind of ninja skills. It has to just come out of the blue.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  And you know, for me, it's been really like the moment I can sort of let go and just have faith that, you know, all the training I've done, all the equipment development we've done, it's all there. And it's invisible, but I, I just have to remind myself like, if I can't see it, but I know it's behind me, you know?

• 1:02:35Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and do you have a certain like type of? Mindset training that you do to dial that in? Or is that just wrote based upon your whole lifetime of experience?

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  It's really, really hard to let go. Because when you want something so bad, oftentimes I think you could get in your way. You know, I've had opportunities to win, you know, contests that I've dreamt about winning. And you almost like, I wouldn't say it's like stumbling before the finish line, but you almost try to control the uncontrollable, which is this dynamic ocean, you know? And I always refer to big waves because I just think that's sort of the pinnacle of where everything is sort of like elevated, you know? Everything is like to the hundredth degree of just insanity. Everything's moving faster, it's, it's, there's, you know, your life could be threatened at moments. The equipment needs to be up to par. Just the whole dynamics are just elevated, right?

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  So it's like, but at the same time, there is this thing of luck, you know? The uncontrollable part of the sport, which is you're only as good as the wave allows you to be. And if you're not riding the biggest wave, you're probably not winning. And so it's like, okay, how can I like not have to necessarily rely on riding the biggest wave the whole time, but how can I perform? And, you know, in that method, you could be like, okay, well, I saw this last big wave break at this particular spot in the lineup. Because a lot of these big wave lineups are hundreds of yards. And, you know, you might be, if you're too stubborn and you're not allowing yourself to kind of move with the ocean currents, since the waves are always changing. And in one day, there might only be four or five massive waves. There's big waves consistently, but there might be only four or five massive ones.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  So, you know, allowing yourself to let go and be in rhythm with the ocean and sort of like have a hunch, you know, a gut feeling that I feel like I should sit right here. I can't explain to anyone why, but this is where I should be right now. And then the wave comes to you and sometimes you, when you don't try to, you know, force anything, it just happens and you like kick out of the wave and you're like, I couldn't repeat what just happened because like a million things like, you know, big wave surfing is, you know, a few things, but one thing is very spiritual, you know? If you don't believe in a higher power, you probably would be quite convinced at the end of the day, since you're just facing walls of water. And so sometimes you do feel like

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  You know, you're gifted away from God and everything was meant for you in that moment. It was like this surreal experience that is unexplainable. And I think that's the draw to riding waves of consequence because you're connecting with yourself at such a high level that you can't hide behind a mask of any kind.

• 1:05:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  I sort of look at these giant walls of water as sort of a mirror of myself. Like, and you see who you really are in that moment. And I've been disappointed and I've also been like, kind of blown away of the person I've become.

• 1:05:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a truth teller. It's not gonna, you know, put up with whatever you're fronting. It's gonna, yeah, be this mirror that's gonna reflect back exactly who you are.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  So it's humility too.

• 1:05:41Rich Roll?

  Sure, yeah. But you also have to have, you know, confidence and enough ego to even approach that and the experience and all of that. Like, I want to get into that. But you mentioned your, you know, relationship with the ocean and this feel that you have to kind of know where to be at the right time. And that's really what it means to be like a waterman, however you define that.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:06:03Rich Roll?

  And you mentioned at the outset that, you know, had you been brought up in a different environment, maybe you would have excelled in some other field. And I think it's really hard to kind of understand or appreciate your career and the many things that you've done without understanding kind of how you came up. Because in so many ways, it's this unbelievably unpredictable, almost miraculous confluence of all these different variables that kind of came together to, you know, produce this individual that you are. With the parents that you, you know, were born into and the location where you grew up and kind of what was happening in that area at that time, matched with this, you

• 1:06:44Rich Roll?

  know, endless, you know, kind of energy that you had and enthusiasm and curiosity, plus, you know, talent and, you know, doing it as such a young person.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  I mean, it was a perfect storm for sure. You know, I'm a product of my environment. I mean, it's sort of, to me, seems like my life was, you know, out of a movie sort of thing, especially, you know... The earlier days growing up because like, you know, my superheroes were the guys that were, you know, winning world championships in my backyard at my local spot. Right. In multiple sports from windsurfing to kite surfing, um, you know, and then just across the way it was, uh, you know, pipeline and, and, you know, there was just, I was in the water sport Mecca for the entire planet. And, you know, in the nineties and early two thousands, pre-social media, you know, that was just like, it was the DVDs and the magazines

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  and it was always like right where I was living. And the fact that I got to see my heroes firsthand, like on a consistent basis where I got to even know them, you know, or I got to be introduced by my parents or friends of friends and, you know, and then there was, you know, the Mount Everest of big wave surfing was in my backyard and, you know, it was sort of, you know, our snow days at school was when there was a giant swell and our teachers would allow us to go play hooky and we'd go sit on the cliff and watch these guys ride waves of unimaginable size. And especially because it was so new back then, um, you know, no one knew that you could survive some of these rides. So every wipeout was like a near-death experience for somebody. Technology hadn't quite caught up with, you

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  know, the safety and, um, and it was all being invented in front of me. Sure. And so just in viewing that, it's like when you have Mount Everest in your backyard, eventually you gotta go climb it. And, you know, I went out there and it was, you know, I was 16 years old and I realized, okay, this is like what I want to do. But I had the influence to do multiple sports because my, you know, idols all, you know, invented them, you know, or were innovating them. Um, and, you know, my first experience ever riding Jaws, for example, wasn't by any traditional means. It wasn't on a towboard. It wasn't on a paddle and gun. It was actually on a hydrofoil board with snowboard boots. And I was out there with Laird Hamilton and Dave Kalama and it was only us, you know,

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  palm trees being my fans, you know, swaying in the wind. And it's just like, you know, you see these kind of like, as a kid, you know, they represented, you know, Superman. Batman and Batman and all those guys and I'm like hanging out there, you know, I'm like the new kid that they've kind of brought under their wing and you know, one of the funniest experiences about that was the fact how I like, you know, almost, or actually I really embarrassed myself in the beginning because I'd been hydrofoiling a lot, but you know, the snowboard boots don't do too well in salt water over a long period of time. And you know, you know, these guys take it, especially then they took it very seriously because you know, this is pre-inflation vest, which we could talk about innovations and stuff, but you know, you could, you know, you're taking a 16 year old kid out there at the time.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Young kids weren't going out there and I waited until their blessing and their invite for me to go. But I got on the board and I was clicked into the clicker bindings, you know, the old K2 clicker bindings. Those were like the ideal setup for the hydrofoil and you needed those because the aluminum foil, every, the kind of the whole concept of the hydrofoil was extremely unstable. So you needed something very stiff to help control it through the board. And you know, nowadays the foils are so good, you can just stand on it, no boots, no straps even. But I remember getting towed up and the, the soles of the boots shearing off and me falling. And this was supposed to be my moment, right? Like where I'm like, I join the, you know, the Justice League, I join my heroes, you know what I mean?

• 1:10:36Rich Roll?

  And this is the litmus test.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  And I literally, the first five seconds I come up and they just, I'm like, the soles are off and I'm just free floating and I'm about to get towed into this Jaws wave. And I'm like, so I just let go of the rope, you know, like right before, and I could just see the look of disappointment on their face. You know, like Dave and Laird as they turned the ski around, they were looking at me like, like you could just tell they're like, why did we even take this kid out here? And then all I did was just lift my foot and they could see the ball on my foot and they just started busting out laughing and they're like, oh my gosh, it's crazy. And so they threw me, you know, Dave Kalamah threw me his boots, which were three sizes too big at the time and I ended up getting towed into a couple pretty big waves and didn't fall, got close a couple of times, you know, just figuring it out and

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  you know, that was just getting a pat on the back from those guys afterwards was really special and that just sort of, you know, that was the snowball that turned into the avalanche of where I'm at now.

• 1:11:32Rich Roll?

  It's hard to, it's hard to understate the impact of Laird and Kalamah and the strap crew and that ethos of innovation. Being exposed to that. Approach to surfing at a very early age, you know, and creating, you know, kind of a shared respect for that way of looking at the sport, I think was huge. And just like, yeah, like being Jaws in your backyard, those guys are the best in the world, pushing the envelope right there, you finding a way to ingratiate yourself into that. But also, they also represented a different kind of new culture in surfing because surfing is a very kind of tribal situation. You're part of this crew, you're part of that crew,

• 1:12:16Rich Roll?

  this is cool, this isn't cool. But at a very early age, you never bought into any of that. Like you're windsurfing and you're foiling and you're, you know, experimenting in all these different ways on the ocean instead of, you know, kind of doing what most people would have done, which is like finding their, their kind of one affiliation and sticking with that.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  I think it's having the ability and the foresight to kind of see where things are headed to, you know, being able to understand like, if I go down this sort of path, where is that going to lead? And you just kind of like, it's almost like playing a game of just wondering where it's going to go, you know, or like how much, how much room of for innovation there is. But then the core of it is, you know, having that undying passion, that real love for it. Like I could wake up and go every single day without being phased. Not, this never would feel like a chore. And I guess the traditional path of, you know, when I was growing up, there was like two ways. It was like, one path was being led

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  as this kind of waterman lifestyle, that strap crew Laird Hamilton sort of approach. And then there was the, you know, Kelly Slater, Andy Irons era.

• 1:13:26Rich Roll?

  The pro world.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  You go into the, you know, as a, you know, you, you only shortboard, you only ride a board that's, you know, a couple inches taller than you are. And, you know, you do the local junior events, then you do the state, state level junior events, and then you go to the nationals, then you go to the world juniors, and then eventually you qualify for the world tour off of the qualifying series. And there's like all these steps and, you know, the only way to get Sponsored or supported as an athlete, you know, is to do that. And there was so many times where like I was, you know, kind of making a name for myself as like a multi-sport athlete, but I wasn't by any means, you know, a successful athlete yet, you know?

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Like I wasn't, you know, the sponsorship I had was like more flow, you know? It's like, oh, here's some clothes sort of thing and.

• 1:14:15Rich Roll?

  I mean, that started, but like, to be fair, I mean, didn't you get your first sponsor at like 10?

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  I did for sure and it was all equipment and.

• 1:14:22Rich Roll?

  And Red Bull at 13?

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:14:24Rich Roll?

  Okay, so.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  But I mean, you know, it's like, it's the culture, it's not, it's if you want to be a pro surfer, you're on such an early path of how you're supposed to do it.

• 1:14:32Rich Roll?

  It's hard because we're in this social media culture now where it feels like an easier lift than it was.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  You couldn't have exposure without kind of getting the blessing from, you know, the core magazines. Like you had to almost be buddies of a buddy or, you know, like just be in with the in crowd. I think the Europeans actually were the ones that really helped to jumpstart my career as like, uh, you know, a sponsored athlete, because everything that I was sponsored for kind of pertained to go into Europe and visiting and, you know, they were all into windsurfing and stuff and these alternative sports and they liked, I guess culturally what these innovators in Hawaii were doing. Um, and so, I mean, I just remember like, you know, meeting with, you know, uh, people of great influence or agents or whatever. And they're like, hey, you gotta stop doing whatever you're doing

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  and just focus on shortboarding and maybe they're right as far as I probably would be on maybe the world tour by now if I focused on that one thing, but it just didn't feel right for me. My parents had always instilled in me, you know, self-confidence and, and, and really, you know, taking a step back and relying on my gut feeling and like, like what, what's your heart really tell you? You can actually, you know, there's like kind of that, I would say, it's not even a cold spot because cold sounds like it's not, it's, there's no feeling there, but you can kind of feel that pit in your stomach when it kind of can direct you one of two ways, you know? And I feel like I'd always listen to that sort of like feeling and I'm like, I'm not sure how it's going to work out, but it is.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  And just like, I would sort of fall into competitively being in a certain sport for a while and then it would just sort of take me, like I was in stand up paddle racing and stand up paddle racing looked like it was going to the Olympics and we were going through waves and I was wave riding and I was winning world titles and the sport, you know, for a period of time was one of the biggest water sports on the face of the planet and it was everyone was talking about it. And then as it sort of declined, I kind of like, without trying, sort of just sort of drifted the opposite way into what I would consider the spiritual pursuit of my wave riding, which was riding big waves. And now there was a world tour for big wave riding.

• 1:16:38Rich Roll?

  It's like cultures catching up. Cultures like this wave behind you or like, right, you're in sync with this wave as it starts to like, you know, break bigger as, you know, the broader world begins to appreciate kind of the multi-disciplinarian approach that you were kind of innovating and perfecting.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, you know, I, everything, there's, there's a lesson in everything and I, when I do these channel crossings and I'm riding open ocean swells, you know, when people think of a rogue wave in the middle of the ocean, they think of this giant wave that's just breaking, right? But it's a chaos of smaller waves and when it's when two waves sort of combine and it creates something really big and that wave out in the middle of the ocean might last only a couple of seconds, you know, and then it just disappears and, but it turns into something else. Then that's the really interesting thing is like, you know, energy can't be created or destroyed and you get to see that firsthand every single day with, you know, the way the ocean moves and

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  sort of that, you know, being able to let go of that ride and move on to the next. That's kind of been like an approach. It's like, okay, like, I rode this wave as long as I could. You know, what's piquing my interest now and, you know, oh, there's like this sort of, you can sort of see the timing of how things are going to evolve a certain way. It's like, wow, that sounds exciting, like this could go someplace and it's not about like, just trying to keep your career afloat. It's more like, you are following your passion the whole time. But it's, it's the ability to let go and sort of like, allow yourself to kind of go, ooh, this looks kind of fun over here and, and, and wander yourself into it. And then you end up kind of looking back on. How everything played out and you're like, if you planned it, it couldn't have worked any better.

• 1:18:18Rich Roll?

  Looking in the rearview, it all makes perfect sense.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, it's good to reflect on it and then like learn from it and like appreciate it. And it's a good reminder though on how you got there. You know, it's like, wow, I actually was able to just kind of like get an opportunity, seize the opportunity, realize that, oh, there's actually some potential here and run with it. And then, you know, see another opportunity and just allowing yourself to sort of like in a way feel it out. I mean, like this feels right, right now, before anyone sees it, you know? I guess it's like trying to be on one of those early TikTok trends or something. You see it before it's big.

• 1:18:55Rich Roll?

  Right. And then as it starts to decline.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  You're onto the next.

• 1:18:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right. Yeah, well, it's, it's, it's, it sounds to me like it's about holding things loosely. Like it's, it's about like not being overly attached to any one particular thing. Cause when I think about you as a young person winning eight world championships in stand-up paddle, the obvious question, well, why didn't you just keep doing that? How many could you have won? But for you to then pivot to something else and tap into that neuroplasticity that you developed as a young person, where you were like, you know, across the board, experimenting in all these different disciplines and trying to then ply that in, in new areas. That's a level of, on the one hand, it's a level of maturity for a young person to be able to make that kind of pivot.

• 1:19:43Rich Roll?

  But with that kind of crazy success at, what were you like 21 or 22 or something like that? It had to also change your relationship with what it means to be successful or, or, or like the, the kind of importance of like winning in a competition context. Like after winning that so many years.

• 1:20:08Rich Roll?

  Then, you know, what else is there to do? Or where is the real nourishment coming from? Like, what is the underlying purpose that's driving you beyond like victories?

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  I'm sure, I mean, sure, everyone experiences this, but it's like the constant pursuit of purpose. Like, you know, and you could think really broadly and you have a lot of time to think about it when you're floating out in the middle of the ocean between either islands or, you know, in between giant waves or anything. You know, there's like, the great thing about going in the water and doing these sports is there's a lot of thinking time in between, you know, really intense, exciting rides and moments. And, um, you know, I think it's like, having done so well in, you know, stand up paddling and certain sports and, and then all of a sudden kind of going into this big wave run where I didn't feel like I was, I was personally legitimate yet. You know, it's like, it's like, wow, there's this real hunger to try to like, I don't want to say impress others,

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  but there is that level of like proving yourself, especially to the choral form of, you know, surfers, you know, culturally, you know, hardcore surfing. I mean, it's like, it does feel good when you could paddle out to line up and everyone's like, oh yeah, what's up? You know what I mean? Versus being an outlier, which I spent most of my life being an outlier because I was doing so many randoms, like, sports that weren't considered hardcore. You know, that a lot has changed now, just in this next generation because so many kids now are, they just do everything, you know? It's just like, you don't just shortboard. You actually just, you foil, you, you pick up a wind sport like winging or kite surfing or, you know, you just kind of do it all. And it's really cool to see how that's evolved, you know? Because for a while I was one of the few in my generation

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  that was approaching it that way. And so, and then it's like, this seems like, okay, I've climbed this mountain over here. You know, this seems like the next big thing. Like, I want to, I want to continue to grow as an athlete, but as a person. And, you know, what's scarier than trying to compete in big waves? Then, you know, you have to balance performance and self-preservation. And in order to win, you kind of got to throw self-preservation out the door a little bit. And that just comes through experience, time, confidence that you could survive whatever scenario you end up yourself in. Putting yourself in and you know it was a bummer because just the landscape of being a professional athlete changed like it probably changed slower than this but it felt like overnight where you know there was all these like tours and and you know magazines supported it and

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  you'd see movies about the this and it was like the storyline and when social media really blew up it kind of like dissolved a lot of you know these larger entities of supporting a tour so like the world surf league decided they no longer wanted to do the big wave world tour and I'd come up runner up on the big wave world tour and it was like right when I felt like I had just sort of like found my balance and I was like in able to go on a you know a run of winning world titles and really big waves all of a sudden it's like that opportunity just evaporated it went into a puff of smoke and and that was like kind of shocking because I hadn't experienced that yet you know it was more like okay get really good in this one sport be successful and then it was like oh wow look at this this is like a new hot thing it looks so

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  fun like work on that you know win world titles over here and so you know with that it was like all of a sudden it felt like wait I'm supposed to be winning world titles in all these different sports like that was always the plan you know like in my own head that was the plan and you know when you don't have the playing field all of a sudden it just evaporates there's nothing you could really do so I definitely like you know felt lost you know competitively for a while because I was like I could go back but then at the same time I'm on such a you know I'm I'm I feel like I have to stick with this like this the approach that I'm going you know versus like kind of revisiting what I've been doing all along um it's like I want to go more down that innovative approach and then certain events would kind of come along you know and I would be able to ride

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  a really you know big wave and win a contest and

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  How important is it to you that you're at a specific event at a specific time where somebody is judging your performance versus just the constant innovation and the search that you're on to find you know bigger waves and and newer ways of approaching those waves in general like is that relevant or do you feel Some frustration because you haven't been on enough podiums or had enough kind of other people tell you that you're a champion in this, that, or the other.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  I think it's just quantifying all the training you sort of do. It's like, kind of like, a contest is a great way to sort of like have everything come to a head and then like reset afterwards. And it's also like, sort of proving to yourself that, you know, you can compete against the world's best. I think it's less about like getting the approval of others so much as like, when I put on a Heat jersey, I feel like I'm pushed to a level that I couldn't be pushed on my own in my backyard where there is no like heavy pressure, there's no time limit, there's like, you know, I guess the art of the game, competing, I think it really pushes my mental

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  capacity to innovate and to progress because like all like, kind of the, ah, yeah, you know, I just don't feel it today. It's like, no, you gotta perform and the finals are always gonna be in the worst condition. So you have to be able to, you know, as an athlete training towards something, you know, it's like, okay, the contest is in six months and I gotta like, in that six month time, I'm gonna train every single day and I'm gonna be adjusting and you're already picturing yourself there, you know? There's a lot of visualization that goes into what I do and I can speak on that, you know, in more depth in a little bit, you know, sitting on airplanes and like visualizing riding these waves that you don't get the opportunity to ride that often.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  But like the competition itself, I go back to the drawing board right after and I have all the answers. If I lose, I learn so much and I have like all these ideas and innovations. I'm like, oh my gosh, we gotta change this about the equipment. I'm gonna train this way a little bit harder. I'm gonna like do a little less of this kind of training and a little more of that. And, you know, I'm actually going to do less of that sport and go on this other sport like kite surfing, you know, so that I could, you know, actually get used to going fast all the time because I can't go fast enough. Like, there's just like, it's, it becomes sort of like a little game and, and that I think pushes my innovation. So I like competition because it definitely allows me to evolve really fast.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Um, and I think if you did it like so consistently, you wouldn't have time to be actually that innovative. You'd be kind of just sort of like trying to rest and recover between each event. And there's, that's a different type of game, but like in the one that I'm playing now where the bands are so spread out, that's the draw, sorta. Um, but, um, that being said, you know, it just, it's like kind of a teeter totter effect, you know? It's like, uh, it's like, you know, the competitive side goes up and that kind of fuels the, the innovative side. And then it's like, kind of, you know, you're kind of going up this ladder, you know?

• 1:27:15Rich Roll?

  But it sounds like the, the, the animating force, like your motivation is really internal versus external. Like the competitions create a situation where you're trying to challenge yourself against yourself to be the best as opposed to I need to beat this guy or be better than this other person on this day. It's just an opportunity for, you know, a peak beyond the typical peak to, you know, reach a new level in what you're trying to accomplish.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, every world championship or every competition I've ever won, I don't even know what anyone else is doing. I'm like, look so inward and I, and I just, I have my game plan and I fall, and I do it or I have like A, B, C, D. I've like a ton of scenarios that I could play with, I, you know, and then you also have to, you know, let go at a certain point and allow things to happen the way they're gonna happen. But, you know, it's every competition, it's like, I don't even, I'm not even thinking about, you know, who I'm competing against, because I just figure if I can do my best performance, you know, I, I train so if I do my best performance, I should win no matter what, you know? Whether it's a race, you know, endurance style, or if it's like kind of fast twitch, you know,

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  high performance tricks, you know, it's like. If I do my best riding, I shouldn't have to worry about what someone else is doing. And so that's kind of like my training mentality. And, and when I do that, it, it, it seems to like, when I do it properly, I win, you know? And it's like, it's almost going like, God, that felt kinda easy. And it's like, no, no offense to, let's say, the other people I'm competing against. But it just means that I kinda did all the hard work the right way. Cause you can work hard and actually like just spin your wheels in the mud. It's about being smart and working hard. And, you know, for me, working hard in my brain might be like, I'm gonna go surf 10 hours. I'm gonna just lift weights. I'm gonna, you know, do whatever it takes.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  And, you know, that letting go is being like, okay, I'm only surfing for 25 minutes today. Because that's gonna drive me absolutely nuts. That's a heat. And in most competitions, you might only have a 25 minute heat in a day. And what can you do in 25 minutes? You come in with an appetite and the rest of the day, you're visualizing it. And your brain doesn't know the difference between doing it in real life and doing it in your mind. And so that appetite of actually doing some, the sport less, but then thinking about it all day. You actually get more performance benefits and you actually get better quicker than if you just went and came in sort of exhausted. And the last thing you wanna do is think about what you just did. It's like, I want, I wanna numb my brain with watching a TV show or, or something, you know?

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  It's like, so always keeping that little bit of an appetite has been like pretty critical to like progressing really fast.

• 1:30:09Rich Roll?

  You talked about like how much you learn when you fail and you lit up like a Christmas tree. Like, I feel that's a really healthy relationship with falling short or failing. And, and, you know, looking at it as an opportunity to learn and get better. Yes, you win, but if you, if you do fail, then that's the opportunity, right?

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, often winning feels like a relief. You know, it feels really good, but that, that moment, that euphoric, I mean, it's all worth it, you know, to win. That's the best feeling ever, but that, that feeling only lasts. I think that day for me, you know, it's like you're in that moment and you're like, I can't believe I did this. I just, how did this happen? Like you're trying to rerun everything in your head, like, could I do it again? You know, like especially something you've worked really hard towards. Um, and that's like, you know, you look to, for me, it's like looking up to the clouds and you seeing kind of the sun reflecting off of it in the ocean. And you feel very present in that moment and you feel very grateful gratitude. It's like, okay, like I want this like, yes, I'm on the right path. Like this is everything's working out.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  And then the next day it's like, you almost feel dull, like the, the dopamine has like dropped down. The adrenaline is gone and you're like, I think it's almost harder to kickstart. You know, actually you can kind of like rely on it too as motivation. Like, yeah, I want, so I can, I gotta keep training to when I'm ahead of the game. But when you lose, the hardest is that day. It feels like a sharp knife, you know, between the ribs, you know? You're just like, it just stings really bad. And, you know, sort of that, I wouldn't say anger or anything, but just sort of like being sent back to ground zero. When everyone was telling you, you're so great, you should win everything. And then you just don't win and you're just like, feel like an idiot right now. And you're like, what can I do to not ever be in this situation again? Cause you know, and you want to just avoid pain at all costs, you know?

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  No matter how gnarly you are, you have to sort of confront fear and pain. And, um, and, and so it's like, okay, like I just get really like analytical and I start writing things down. And I start making plans and I overanalyze everything. And then my brain starts spinning out and then I like pull everything in and I condense everything that I thought I could do better. And I make it something that I can have an achievable win every single day. So it's like you have, I set a goal that's outlandish and maybe impossible or to what I think at that moment. And then I have like maybe a couple more goals in between, like targets to hit. And in between that, if I can't, if those targets feel too grand and big, I work on the smaller ones.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  To the point where it's like getting out of bed and just being like, I'm going to take an ice bath this morning. It's the least thing I want to do, but I'll feel like a champion if I like force myself to sit in cold water. Just mentally, you know? And it's not, it's just having like goals that you could sort of accomplish. So I feel like, yeah, I've, if the losses have led me to somewhere much greater than if I was just consistently winning, I think. But that being said, I'd rather consistently be winning.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  Who wouldn't, right? Yeah, like, I love that, that very strategic approach. You know, when you think of surfing, you think about, you know, the soulful kind of relationship with the ocean. And, and, you know, you mentioned, you know, spirituality and a higher power and certain, and like, being able to kind of feel your way into what you should be doing. And all of that is absolutely crucial, especially when the stakes are as high as they are with what you do. But on top of that, you're bringing a whole new, like, level of, like, structure and conscious intentionality to, and strategy to like, how you're approaching not only, you know,

• 1:33:47Rich Roll?

  what you do every day, but the broader picture of where you want to take your career. And then bringing in like, a level of athleticism and, and training that I feel like is new or somewhat unusual in the world of surfing, like, to try to elevate it. You're approaching it as a professional athlete in a way that maybe isn't part of the real, the full history of, of surfing. So, you know, how did that kind of come about? And what does that like, look like on a day-to-day basis when you're home in, in Maui?

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Well, I think when I'm home in Maui, it's a perfect balance. There's like, kind of a harmony between like, the going to the places you're not allowed to sort of film, you know, and you just go with your buddies and you're like, in this beautiful place that people save, you know, their whole entire lives to go visit. And, you know, you pinch yourself, you know? You're just at this, this remarkable place. But then at the same time, I got like, I got the motivation to, to go to the factory, to go work on the equipment with, you know, my team, go design hydrofoils, go work with my sail designers, um, you know, go to the gym, you know, break down everything that I need to do physically to become something. And, you know, a contrast would be like, here in Los Angeles right now. There's no waves or real conditions, you know, and I just came from Maui.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  My point of being here is obviously like sponsorship related, but then also training related. And, you know, when I get here, I get so excited and motivated like, oh my gosh, this is, I want to do this. I want to do that. And like, how can we do it? And it's the real technical side of things. And, and then when I, like, I'm in Indonesia, you end up like, sitting there and it's just so quiet and just perfect peeling waves. And it's like, like, I don't want to worry about anything else. So it's like those two contrasts. I think it's really important to have a healthy balance of like, going someplace where it's just about like innovation, progress, pushing yourself. Like here in LA and then going to somewhere like Inda where it's the exact opposite, where it's about connecting with yourself.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  So that you can, you know, I guess it's like being less the designer and more of the artist, you know? Like allowing things to happen, not forced because it'll look, it won't look right on the wave, but allowing it to come naturally. So you're like in a barrel. It's like, instead of grabbing my rail with my right hand and I'm backside, I'm going to grab it with the other one. I'm going to look back in the tube, you know, it's like thinking Jerry Lopez, thinking Zen sort of thing. And, and then when I come to Maui, I feel like I, it's the perfect place in the world for me to live. Because it's like Indonesia in the sense that we have amazing conditions, beautiful landscape, all that. There's like the spiritual aspect to Hawaii and, and all that. And then there's also, you know, the highest tech equipment that I could possibly ride is being made in my backyard.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  You know, it's all there, you know, like space age materials are there and it's in the most, you know? So it's like those sort of things, like finding that, just finding balance is really important, um, obviously. So, and that's hard. It's like, it's always shifting and most recently, you know, I've kind of challenged myself daily. Because there's, the hardest challenge for me, you know, throughout the year might be like, You know, you're at your most relaxed. This is when it usually happens. You're at your least prepared, you know, because there's like, training is never a constant rising line. It's an up and it's a down. You're tired and then, you know, it's a kind of fall on a chart if you just picture that. And, um, you know, then you get a call and it's like Nazaré in Portugal

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  is gonna be the biggest swell ever. And you're thinking, God, the biggest swell ever means like a hundred feet. Yeah. And you know, in order to go play the game at Nazaré, you're gonna get absolutely obliterated, no matter how good you are, because it's a beach break. It's, it's a wave that's unrelenting. And, you know, it's, there's no safe place. There's no channel. You're in the pit. You know, you feel like a gladiator in Thunderdome and they release the lion and you have to like, not, you kind of gotta just try to survive the entire time, you know, and perform in between. So that being said, you get on an airplane from Hawaii and it takes 24 hours to get there. No matter how good you sleep on an airplane, it's not good enough. You get there jet lagged the day before. The entire flight, you were thinking about, could this be my

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  last airplane ride I've ever been on, you know? So you're like, trying to enjoy the amenities. And, uh, and so you land, get in the car, drive to Nazaré and you like, look out and it's already like 50 feet and it's like, it's gonna be twice as big tomorrow. And you're just trying to like, just so loopy, you know, pound a Red Bull and be like, okay, let's do it, you know? And just like, take, like, the jet lag doesn't exist. You know, you almost like will it out of existence and you go out there and ride it. So like, um, sort of get to the, kind of the meat of what I'm trying to say. It's, it's about being, I'd say, adaptable in, in the moment. And so I come home and you can't, you can find those sort of challenges, but then you're at home too. So like, I have two kids. I,

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  you know, have homeowner responsibility. I gotta work in my yard, you know, I gotta do stuff for my wife and stuff. And so I can't go climb my 10,000 foot Haleakala Mountain for all day, you know? It's like, all right, I'm gonna go do my training for a couple hours, come back, hang with the kids, take some weight off my wife so she can go do stuff and, you know, that sort of thing. And so it's like, how could I like, challenge myself? And it's like, what am I most consistently comfortable doing? Or what? It almost feels like a habit and can I break that habit?

• 1:39:05Rich Roll?

  Breaking it, yeah.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Just breaking the habit.

• 1:39:07Rich Roll?

  Like the ice bath example, just do a pattern interrupt.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Total pattern interrupt.

• 1:39:13Rich Roll?

  Testing yourself to be out of your comfort zone.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  It's like you're tired, you want to just put on the TV and watch something, you know, at the end of the day. It's like, no, I'm going to read Striking Thoughts, the philosophy of Bruce Lee. You know what I mean? Which is like very philosophical and very like, you know, it's very interpreted by, you know, your own perception of where you are in your life. And so it's like doing stuff that's gonna like, and that's not hard to do, but it's like breaking that, something that's easy.

• 1:39:42Rich Roll?

  So the idea being that you're kind of preparing yourself mentally to be adaptable, because you have to, in surfing, you have to rise to the occasion and you never know when the occasion is going to present itself. It's very different than being an Olympic athlete. Okay, I know the Olympics are going to happen on this day. Everything goes into being as ready as you can on that day. And, you know, that day for you could be any day. So you have to be in a constant state of relative preparedness for when those opportunities arise and to navigate the discomfort of it not being ideal.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, and I hold my standard mentally to be like, if I were to fall off a boat in between the islands, you know, like where I can't see either island, but I know a general direction. I want to always have the confidence that even though I'm not like an Olympic swimmer or anything, I could easily just swim to shore.

• 1:40:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Like, duh, you know, it's like not even a question. You know, so it's like holding yourself to a standard. And, you know, when I sleep, that's when I get to relax. And then when I wake up, it's like, until I'm not trying to do something that, you know, could be death defying and I can really relax. But I find my purpose and my happiness really comes from kind of being on that edge constantly. I really feel centered and I feel confident in myself and feel like I'm a better husband and father and a better friend, when I really feel like I've, you know, you know, I am scared of something, but I'm on the quest of accomplishing it.

• 1:41:18Rich Roll?

  Right, so the edge, how are you defining the edge then, in that?

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  I think, you know, it's like just in anything, you can probably overstep. There's, I've, my biggest training problem is overtraining. You know, where you just like zap yourself flat and it's the most frustrating thing. Cause then it takes like a week to come out of, or a couple of weeks, maybe to come out of like, training too hard. So it's like the fear of not being able to do enough in a short amount of time. You know, like I'm 30 and I'm in the prime of my career and, uh, you know, I, I'm still super young, but you know, I realize that life is super short and every single day I wake up, I feel like I need to, I have a responsibility, or not even a responsibility, but maybe an internal pressure to just wanna be accomplishing things. And there are all those times you gotta just like,

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  enjoy the little things and just relax. And, um, you know, the kids, my one-year-old twin daughters, um, you know, have really taught me that, you know, being able to just come like, all the way back down to the core of what's important and just playing with them, you know, on the carpet. And like just making, stacking little blocks and having them knock it over, you know, and it's like, it's so easy to get so wrapped up in, you know, the career and the ideas and where we wanna go and how big we wanna become. And, you know, you don't wanna stop because you feel like you stop, you know, you're not gonna get any better. And I've had times where I've taken like, three days off, just knowing that, okay, I'm kind of on that edge of overtraining and the, the less, the farther, the longer I ended up spending away from what I was trying to accomplish,

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  the easier it came, shorter. And I was like, what? Is it because I'm just thinking through it and my body's not being taxed?

• 1:42:58Rich Roll?

  It's weird how it works that way.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  And it's just like so counterintuitive to me. It's like, I, my, my thought is like work hard, you know, get there. But it's like, there's, there's intricacies and it's like, it's like racing a car around a circuit, you know, it's like, you're not pedal to the metal the whole time. You know, you're lifting and you're pressing and you gotta know when to do that. And somebody who can dance the dance is gonna be able to get around the track the fastest.

• 1:43:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can't, it's not a, success isn't a function of pure will, you know, applied forcefully. Like it is that dance, right? And you have this restlessness and relentlessness and focus and all of that. Like you're very committed and driven, um, but then there is that letting go part. How do those two things like interact with each other? Um, and also, you know, because what you do, Involves these insane peak experiences. It's almost like a special forces operator being deployed into some kind of very intense overseas situation and then coming home where life is really calm and normal.

• 1:44:03Rich Roll?

  And a lot of those people have difficulty kind of adapting or adopting or trying to merge those two worlds like that hedonic shift. So does that come up for you? Do you have issues with like, you know, always feeling the pull to be out, like going to the next level and achieving that like dopamine rush that you get with those things?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:44:26Rich Roll?

  And how does that work when you're just at home and it's flat and you got kids waking up in the middle of the night?

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  It's like sometimes I do feel like a wild animal being domesticated. But it's like, I think the greatest of all time have always been know how to like, they're so confident in how good they are and what they do that they're able to step in and out of that door like a light switch, you know, be able to turn it on and turn it off. And that's something that I'm learning and navigating, you know, being powerful enough internally to be able to turn on when you need to and then turn off. And I think that's just, that's the ultimate, that's kind of the quest all warriors go after and we live in a different era where being a warrior isn't necessarily going to

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  war and battling. I mean, that's the gnarliest thing I think you could do, but it's not like you're a samurai somewhere or a gladiator. It's a little different, but I mean, I would say the, the kind of like that tribal nature that's built into our DNA, you can still feel that. And so you find different ways to sort of cope with it. Like to me, it's like riding that big wave and I never understood it because like when I was first getting into big waves, it took me about like 13 years to get over my fear of riding big waves where it was like by the. In summer, I would be like, "Yeah, I'm so excited to ride big waves." But the big waves weren't there, so it wasn't scary. And then the big waves would come and I'd be like, "Oh, I can't wait for summer, because this is too scary. This is so gnarly."

• 1:46:00Rich Roll?

  You were like, you barely had reached puberty at that point.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  No, no, for sure. But I mean, literally, it took me from 16 years old, like, you know, 13 years, like, only a couple of years ago, did I really feel like it was more of a canvas and less of like, "Oh, my God, I'm gonna die," you know? And, and so, I, you know, I remember, you know, Laird had some very sick movies back in the day, Riding Giants, and they were always very dramatic, and I loved it, because it felt like you were, you know, living in a movie. And, and he is like, you know, it'd be like if you were a dragon slayer and there was just no more dragons to slay. And that was like, so, it was a sick quote. It was pretty dramatic. And I kind of get it, because like, now I sort of get it, because like,

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  just as you get momentum in riding big waves, and the opportunity is there, if you see a big wave, the chances are it won't be there tomorrow, and it might not be there for a year. Or, you know, maybe in 10 years, it might not be the same way it was. So, you gotta take those opportunities as they come. And all of a sudden, you go through the entire winter, and, you know, I'm, you know, on land, I'm 5'8", but on, you know, on a wave, I feel 6'6", you know, I feel like I can grow. Like, that's just my place where I, I lock in, and, and, you know, that being said, you have all summer, and you just feel like, "Oh, where'd it go?" You know, like, all of a sudden, that, you can't get anything that's close to that. And, you know,

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and if you can't find a way to process that in a healthy way, you're gonna have problems.

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think a lot of people, like, you know, can get, I think arrogance can get, you know, kind of misinterpreted with them not being nice. It's just more that they're just this grumpy old bear, you know? And, or like, in the past, you know, people turned to, you know, substances, and, you know, abused that, because it was like, "Aha!", and you're just like this adrenaline junkie. And to me, it's like, always been channeled. I've been very lucky, I channel it into my other sports. But now that, you know, I've had an entire year to like, Really become a father and stuff, I'm just channeling it into, you know, my kids and like, and it's a different way. It's not the same way. It's like being just there and just in being

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  a good father and being a good husband. And it's like striking that balance, that ultimate balance. But then, you know, still being able to find things throughout the day that are going to allow me to kind of like sink my teeth in something for a second. And it's like, like the little challenges. And that's why it's like, you know, what's a habit that's, you know, some habits aren't bad habits. It's just, it just is what it is, you know? And so, you know, breaking those is just, it's just a challenge. Like, I so badly want to go, what do I do over with this thing? I want to look at my phone at this time, whatever.

• 1:48:42Rich Roll?

  And that's something everybody could do, right? We all have our little ruts or our habits that we know, like, they're not necessarily bad, but they kind of just keep us stuck in a certain mode, right? And to like, develop that muscle or that habit of, oh, here's an opportunity. I can like not do that and do this other thing that isn't necessarily hard, but that interruption, like if you are in the process of always doing that, I think that's really powerful to kind of help rewire your brain.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  For sure. There's a lot to work on constantly.

• 1:49:14Rich Roll?

  You were talking about like, you know, the various kind of roles and responsibilities you have. Like as a, as a surfer, there's the technician and there's the artist and there's the performance piece. But there's also the, there's the family guy. But there's the business of Kai Lenny, right? And, and capturing everything on video like is, is part of that. It's part of your job. So on top of trying to innovate and go to the next level in the sport, you're also, you know, managing cameras and being your own kind of like one man production crew. And then behind you, you've got Red Bull Media House and the, you know, Life of Kai series. And how does all of that, you know, the kind

• 1:49:55Rich Roll?

  of the entrepreneurial side of what you do, how do you compartmentalize that or make all of that work so that it's not, you know, infringing on, you know, the core of the performances you're trying to get out of yourself?

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. In the sport, it's all about the feeling and having, holding a camera or filming something takes you out of that, which can take away from your performance. So like you said, compartmentalizing it is really key, like knowing. Being able to essentially like be really into doing the filming and like being in front of the camera and like filming yourself, you know, because it's part of the job, like being really good at, but when you put it down, being able to just forget about that and just get back into like the pureness of what you're doing. That is like, it's a hard balance to do because a lot of times like I might be going out and if we're filming something, I might be thinking, oh, I should, I gotta do this because this would look really good versus like doing something that I would naturally do.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Um, but that being said, uh, you know, I, the third thing that I forgot to explain earlier, you know, it was like three things that I always wanted to do as a kid was be a multiple world champion in sports. Um, I wanted to be an inventor and so I've kind of accomplished those two things where it's like innovating what I ride and inventing new ways to ride the ocean. And the third thing was filmmaking, like I always loved film and, and like, you know, my life felt very cinematic as it was, but like I loved movies, it was always inspiring. And, um, to me, it was less about like trying to brag about what I do and how great I am, you know, I find that sort of irritating. It's more like sharing what I'm doing and the experience I'm doing it.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  And hopefully if someone can be inspired by what I'm doing to do anything, you know, they are, because I'm heavily inspired by a lot of people that do incredible things. I'm like, oh my God, that was so sick. Like, that's a great idea. I want to do that, just to do it. But like, that's like the whole idea behind the life of Kai series and, you know, to have the support of Red Bull, it definitely is like capturing what my life is like in this moment and, you know, hopefully people find it entertaining. But I think most importantly, it's like, I want to share the crazy experiences I have that, you know, no one would be willing to capture by myself. And we have this conversation with, you know, all the time and with my brother especially, who also serves really big waves, Ridge Lenny.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  He, um, we talk about, it's like, we want to film. On these big waves, stuff that no, you know, cinematographer would ever go to. You'd take an athlete, but no athlete would ever want to take a camera. So it's like finding another gray or it's like, gosh, I, without, you know, 99.99% of people will never ride a big wave. Um, so bringing that feeling and experience to them, that's like really exciting, really fun. And then at the same time, like, it's not all about riding big waves. It's like, most of the time you're not riding a big wave. Being a big wave surfer, you ride less big waves than, you know, you ride small waves. I'm probably, I would say more accurately, more of a small wave surfer, because that's what I surf most of the time. That's just what the ocean produces, right?

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  But, um, it's sharing all aspects, you know, the, the, the ups, the glorious winds to, you know, the, the record, like, the bottom, you know, ground level. And I, I've always been interested in seeing how people can build themselves up. And if I can share how I do it, I'm not afraid to kind of share what I've learned along the way. So people can, you know, maybe skip a step or two, you know, and like go to the next level.

• 1:53:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Think all about going to the next level and whatever we're doing.

• 1:53:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you do such a great job with it. I mean, it is, you do feel like you're kind of tagging along for you. And especially through the Life of Kai series, like, I mean, Red Bull Media House does such an amazing job. Like, everything is so high level on a production level, like the cinematography, the editing, the music, the storytelling.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:53:51Rich Roll?

  It's pretty captivating.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  I mean, everything that I do, it, it's like, you know, I guess I'm the one that gets, I, I'm the one doing it. But at the same time, like, I'm, I am where I am today because I've had so many amazing people, you know, starting from the beginning, like, my parents, you know, they're like my original heroes. Uh, they help, they helped me get on the path that I'm on, the greatest support. Um, you know, and then it's like, you know, my friends and family, my sponsors, but, you know, like, a team like Red Bull Media House being able to, you know, do something. They, they allow me to actually go out and really try to step my level up and focus and perform and innovate and do all these things. Um, because otherwise my brain, you know, you only have so much bandwidth in a day.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  I'd be the one trying to put something out. Much more subpar, you know, like that I'm editing at night, staying up late and it's taking away from, you know, the actual act that I'm trying to show everybody. So that support and be able to share it in the best way possible is like huge. And, you know, as long as people find it interesting, I think we'll just keep on doing it.

• 1:54:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. In terms of, of casting your gaze like into the future, you know, there's this idea like you're, okay, you're innovating on a new level, you're doing things nobody's ever done before. You're doing it in all these different disciplines. But I get the sense that you feel like you're still in the starting gate in terms of what's possible. Like we look at Nazaré, oh, biggest wave in the world, you know, end of conversation. No need to look anywhere else. This is where it's all happening. Or what you're doing is, is really, you know, at, at the edge of what's possible. But how do you think about that?

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Well, it's really fascinating because, you know, Nazaré is the current probably tallest big wave in the world. Uh, and it was only surfed by Garrett McNamara 11 years ago.

• 1:55:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  And, you know, big wave surfing has been done since the 60s. So the fact that a giant wave like Nazaré has been under the noses of every big wave surfer in Europe, which is like...

• 1:55:56Rich Roll?

  Well, even after it was discovered, people were dismissive of it for a long time, right?

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Yeah. Like it's just, which is bizarre because, well, it's not bizarre. It's just, what I always find just super interesting is that like it's a Western country. It's in the European Union. It's like...

• 1:56:15Rich Roll?

  It's not like in the middle.

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  It's not like you're going to Africa or something, you know, like it's, you know, it's, it's, it's really like, why did it take so long to?

• 1:56:26Rich Roll?

  There's literally a lookout point that's been there.

• 1:56:29Speaker 01

  There's a literal like lighthouse and of giant harbor. I mean, when it comes to big wave surfing, it doesn't get any more convenient. You know, we leave the jet skis on the ramp, like on the, and you just walk down and get on the jet ski. And in two minutes, you're, the harbor is completely flat, super smooth because the trench is so deep. And then, I mean, that's one reason why they put the harbor there. But then you're straight out in 80 foot waves, like that in two minutes. And it's like, what? There's no wave on earth that's that convenient, that easily accessible. But it took, took like, you know, so long. It took someone like Garrett McNamara to like...

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Go poke around over there. And so it makes me think that, you know, the hardest thing about finding a big wave is knowing when to go. You know, you can track a storm, you can be that meteorologist, be like, okay, this swell is gonna hit here, but it also means as a big wave surfer, you're gonna miss out on the other big waves that are in that region, you know, the standard places. Like, think about how big the Pacific is and how many islands there are. Um, you know, you, there's a Jaws swell and, you know, there's a, there's like, the waves are 80 feet. There's gotta be another place out there that's as good if better, if not better. Like, I don't doubt it. But it's like, you gotta go look for it and you might just get skunked. It might take 10 years and then

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  that 10 years of looking for the mythical better big wave, you know, you, you may, uh, either, you may find it, you may never find it, but that was 10 years of not surfing the best big wave in the world. So it's like, I think there's absolutely as big of waves as Nazar or Jaws somewhere.

• 1:58:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  And I'm just, I just, any locals, just hit me up.

• 1:58:14Rich Roll?

  How do you, yeah, like, how do you begin the hunt, you know, like, how do you, how do you narrow it down?

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  Well, I think, you know, a lot of surfers have found some of the best waves on planet Earth via Google Earth.

• 1:58:24Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  You go on Google Earth and the problem with Google Earth is like, sometimes when the photo is taken via the satellite.

• 1:58:30Rich Roll?

  No idea when that photo, yeah.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  Well, it has the date. The hardest part is like, the timing of it because it's the, you know, in surfing, it's like, oh, you show up to a surf break. It's like, you should have been here yesterday. It was twice as big. That photo could have been taken the day before, the day after a giant swell.

• 1:58:47Rich Roll?

  What if it was just 10 seconds before the swell came in?

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  Uh, totally. Yeah. So it's like, but what you end up looking at is sort of the, you, you end up trying to look at how the, the, the coastline is, is, uh, sort of set up. You know, you look at kind of like the, the, the modeling of, um, the bottom of the ocean in that region. And you, you gotta kind of get pretty tech, you know, you gotta. You almost got to imagine it and sometimes the most perfect setups are there, but they don't get the swell. So you get, there's like a window, you know, it's like the swells come perfectly to Hawaii every time and it's like the perfect distance. Like everything sort of lines up.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  And so it's like the South Pacific, the Southern Hemisphere is very active, but the waves don't tend to get vertically as tall as say a Nazar or a Jaws. But that being said, doesn't mean they don't exist down there. It's just like finding the setup, you know, it's, it's, it's really, it's really interesting. But I think the, there's the big waves out there exist. I think maybe bigger waves, you know? I don't doubt it, but.

• 1:59:56Rich Roll?

  When we, when we were at Surf Ranch, you were talking about the possibility of exploring the open sea, like finding those rogue waves or just going out, you know, into the, into the ocean, like in the, in the really uncharted areas. Is that still something that you think has potential?

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  I think it has total potential. I mean, you think about, every time I fly in an airplane, I look out the window, I'm flying back to Hawaii from just California. You know, 2,500 miles. I mean, that's like just a short area of how big the Pacific is, or even the Atlantic, right? And, you know, I look down there, I'm like, it is so vast, it's so big. The ocean in some sort of ways is like a desert, you know, like a lot of the life is kind of towards coastlines, or if there is life, it's very, very deep. But there's like a lot of like desert-y area and like, what could you find in a desert, these big sandines? You know, so there's, there's giant swells out there, but like, in order to ride, say, a rogue wave or to ride a giant wave, it's, it's like, you have to be at the right place, the right time,

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  and you'd probably have to find yourself in the middle of a storm, you know? And, and I think it's, it's totally doable, it's totally possible. I think, you know, the, the first step in the final frontier of big wave surfing, which I think is riding open ocean monster waves, the stuff you see that big ships are on, you know? Um, you know, it was going to Cortez Bank, which is, you know, uh, one of the Channel Islands right off here, the coast, 100 miles off of San Diego. And that's like on a sea mound underwater, it's just underwater and the waves get big and you can't see coastline anywhere. And it feels like you're in the middle of the ocean, but there has to be other sea mounts out there that can produce-

• 2:01:36Rich Roll?

  Right, like a shelf, like a, so it's a shallower part of the ocean.

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, I mean, you know, if you had all the time in the world, you would just hop on those big, you know, maritime ships that, you know, bring all the goods from, you know, Asia over to America.

• 2:01:52Rich Roll?

  A big cargo.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, a big cargo, just sit on it and be like, you'd see the swell and be riding, be like, "Okay, see ya." And then you'd have to get extracted somewhere else, but I think that's like the only way to like, you almost have to like wander into it, because if you try to like find it, I don't know if you could ever find it. You might get something, but, you know, it's most of the time, it's like that movie, The Perfect Storm.

• 2:02:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:02:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  You kind of like end up in the middle of it and you just gotta make use of what's in front of you, sort of thing.

• 2:02:21Rich Roll?

  So every time you're a movie buff, every time you see a movie where there's waves, you've gotta be just thinking-

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 2:02:27Rich Roll?

  Just realistic, should I be, should, can I ride this? Could I not ride it?

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  Watching Interstellar, it was just driving me nuts. I'm like, "We gotta go, you know, extraterrestrial here."

• 2:02:36Rich Roll?

  Like, where does the gravity work a certain way that's gonna create a wave like that?

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I mean, that wave, watching it, you know, one of the, the characters in that film, and, you know, spoiler alert, dies, you know, gets sucked over it. I'm like, "Bro, that was, you could surf that." Like, the speed it's moving, you know, and everything about it, like-

• 2:02:55Rich Roll?

  Slow moving, it doesn't, we don't see it break, right?

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:02:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  But I mean, I could understand if it's like 5,000 feet high, and if you've ever been on the top of a 50-foot wave, the amount of wind could probably send you high enough where you'd fall, like, you'd fly through there and you'd maybe land on the other side and, you know, like, die from just falling a severe height. But, you know, one trick to not getting flung in the air is, at the last five feet of the wave, you dive through the wave, and so you don't feel that atmospheric pressure on your ears, and, you know, you, you stay in the solid state of water, because water doesn't move, you know, it's the energy that's moving in the water. Water ends up moving once it breaks, you know, it's like this kind of, that's why it turns white, and it's like this like avalanche effect, but the swell, the literal swells out there, um, you know, it's like-

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  Basically, you could stay in the same place and the swells aren't moving you. The current might move you and the wind might move you, but it's not really the swells unless they're kind of breaking.

• 2:03:53Rich Roll?

  So it would just be like an infinite ride?

• 2:03:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think you'd have a long time to try to figure out how to get off.

• 2:04:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:04:01Speaker 01

  You'd slowly work your way up or, I don't know. It's, but yeah, watching that, watching movies like that is always fun and most of the time, you know, I think like they CGI waves to make them look bigger and I'm like, oh, like I've seen waves that big. You don't need to CGI them. It's just gotta be in the right place to film them.

• 2:04:19Rich Roll?

  Right. You should do that, you know, that thing they do on, uh, on, on GQ where they have you watch movies and, and, uh, talk about like how realistic this wave is, that wave, this surfer.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. That'd be pretty cool.

• 2:04:30Rich Roll?

  Is there one movie that, that has nailed it well?

• 2:04:33Speaker 01

  I've, you know,

• 2:04:35Rich Roll?

  Not documentaries.

• 2:04:36Speaker 01

  I mean culturally surfing is so different that trying to put it to film is very difficult. If you're trying to have like a wider audience understand it, I don't think it's impossible. But, um, you know, with, when it comes down to just how waves are approached, there's a lot of like looking into someone's eyes and knowing what they're thinking sort of thing.

• 2:04:54Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:04:55Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, you know, there's like this unspoken language in a way like, and so that's hard to put to film. You kind of gotta obviously carry the audience and stuff. When it comes to surf editing, you know, it's like 15 different waves put together and the wave lasts three minutes long. It doesn't make a lot of sense. I think there's a potential to, if Hollywood made a movie and was able to, you know, put a camera in my hand in front of a 50 foot wave, I could capture everything practically. But the hardest part about, you know, making these movies about big waves is no one's willing to be put in the spot practically.

• 2:05:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:34Speaker 01

  Um, and so a lot of times they end up, you know, needing CGI. And, you know, CGI just can't capture water the same way and it just doesn't look right. And I think you would need somebody in the editing room or with the director, uh, to, to like, the nuances, you know, maybe like when you're looking at something really like, uh, tight, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but over the length of a film, the little nuances kind of like are very striking and like very obvious to those that look. And I think it would just enhance the experience of others that don't, um, see those nuances. They wouldn't, subconsciously they would see it, but maybe like, They wouldn't know what they're seeing. It would just be, I don't know what it is, but it just looks so real.

• 2:06:18Rich Roll?

  I can't help but ask, you mentioned that you're always reading, you've got a bunch of books that you're into right now. Like, what are some of the books that you're into now and that have kind of impacted you the most in terms of how you think about, you know, how you're pursuing your life?

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  Um, I think everyone should read this book, The War of Art. Not The Art of War is great too, but The War of Art.

• 2:06:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Steven's been a multiple guest on the show.

• 2:06:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's like, to me, that's a book I should read probably every couple of months. It just keeps, I think,

• 2:06:49Rich Roll?

  Couldn't agree more.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Keeps you so in tune. And I think it's good for, everyone deals with resistance, you know, and I don't know if anyone that I've ever read or heard speak has put it clearer to kind of the indescribable.

• 2:07:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  You know, like, you know, it's hard to describe an emotion. It's hard to describe a color to somebody if they've never seen one. And that's sort of like that inner force that we have. It's like, ah, you, how do you, you can't describe it, you know? It's like, you know it's there and he was somehow able to capture it. So that book is, I highly recommend it to everybody. And then another book that I recently read, you know, I like to read a lot of fiction too, but like, on the nonfiction, it's like How to Build a Car, which is Adrian Newey from Red Bull Racing. That was really interesting. He's the most prolific car designer and it's just really cool to hear his journey of from building,

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  going into Formula One and how he's been able to make the fastest cars with maybe not the best engines, but aerodynamically. And it just was really interesting. I'm so into Formula One. That was like, it was a really good read that he made and uh, yeah, it was cool.

• 2:07:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. And then just maybe some final thoughts for people who are kind of trying to shake things loose in their mind and find a fresh, uh, you know, perhaps uncomfortable new approach to their life to, you know, kind of deepen their relationship with whatever moves them or, you know, to get a little bit more mastery into their craft. Like, what is the guidance that you can give somebody to get out of that comfort zone?

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Purposefully doing something that...

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  is uncomfortable like it's like knowing that some people equate I think being uncomfortable with doing something sort of wrong or or something you know it's like doing something that you know you should do for sure but it's like ah like I'll do it tomorrow or I'll put it out I'm putting it on my calendar it's like no the moment you think about you just gotta do it like just then that's the hardest thing and and but I think really important is having and not everyone's like this but like goals you know and putting literally putting it like just somewhere visually where subconscious you sort of see it

• 2:09:08Speaker 01

  is like a goal that you think is like too large to obtain but then you break it down into smaller goals and smaller until it's so so small that it's like it's the most easy task like making your bed in the morning taking a cold shower I don't know it's like doing your dishes right after you eat not just letting it sit in the sink like that is the discipline that leads to whatever bigger goal you have and like that's what I if I if I'm overwhelmed I just go back to the basics back to the basics and then I remind myself everything's baby steps baby steps and then all of a sudden I end up where I was supposed to go I'm like this isn't that hard but it's because I did all the right things along the way so you know most people get stunned by too big of a goal but

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  that's like that's your future selves problem and right now

• 2:09:58Rich Roll?

  progression you don't you don't drop into the big wave you you surf the baby waves and work your way up until the big wave you know for you you're like I'm bored by this

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  yeah I know you ride like when I was nine years old I rode a 15 foot wave face wave and I used to be really meticulous like how big was that dad oh that was like a 20 foot face wave yes like I'm stepping it up slowly and so it's like for me it was in riding waves to go to the really big stuff it was like little bit more a little bit more a little bit more okay this is I I can't go there yet but I'm I'm gonna get there I'm gonna keep practicing at this level and When I'm like hungry, I'm gonna be able to go there. But I didn't give up. I didn't take my foot off the gas. Even though I might have like been like scared and nervous. I was still putting the gas on in where I was. It just maybe took a little longer to get to where I needed. So allowing yourself time to, you know, not really putting a date on the goal.

• 2:10:53Speaker 01

  It's good if you feel like that helps you like, like, like I say in competition, you know? Training, focus, like I got this much time. But sometimes it's like having that goal and, and having it just be there existing. And knowing you're always working towards it, but you're not sure when it's gonna sort of happen. And before you know it, all of a sudden you end up being there like, you know, a year goes by and you're like, I'm already here? That thought, I thought that would take me 10 years, you know? So it's being, having the ability to play with yourself too. Not being locked into like what somebody told you on the internet or what I'm telling you now. Being able to like constantly adjust, like my, my training regimen, everything like my, I, if I find something that might be better, I'll just adjust a little bit.

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  You're just constantly adjusting. And then eventually you have like this such a good plan that works for you for like a couple of weeks or a month. You know, it like works really good. And then you're like, I'm ready to move on from that. I gotta find another way to sort of like navigate. You just keep adjusting your little plan, you know? I just keep a ton of notes on my phone or reminders, you know? It's like just organize it in a way that, yeah, it kind of like, just kind of cues. I can just look at it real quick and be like, oh yeah, okay. Like set me on this path.

• 2:12:06Rich Roll?

  Right, got it. Your mind goes a million miles, miles an hour, man. You're able to sleep at night? You can shut it down?

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  It's the hardest part for sure. Yeah. I sleep best probably on an airplane because I know that's all I can really do, you know? I gotta, okay, I gotta get my rest.

• 2:12:23Rich Roll?

  Life of Kai, season three? Is up, how many episodes is this gonna be?

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  So right now, we have one episode.

• 2:12:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's only the one up.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so we're gonna have a total of five. And the next one's about to drop, which is really exciting because it goes back to, you know, the last one was that big shift we sort of talked about, me having a family, navigating, riding really big waves, and kind of like a catch-up for where I'm at right now. And the next episode is about me going to the proving grounds, the Mecca of surfing, the North Shore of Oahu, and having the opportunity to surf in the biggest, most prestigious surfing event in the world, the Eddie Icau. And, you know, trying to accomplish a dream of riding Pipeline the way the most hardcore pipe specialists do. So, you know, it's really, it's really cool to see that episode,

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  and then, you know, kind of where it evolves from there. There's a bunch of other exciting things, and I think each episode keeps getting better and better. So I'm excited for everyone to see it. They drop once a month, and they're around 20 minutes long.

• 2:13:28Rich Roll?

  And then what's next for you? What's top of mind?

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  I mean, we're working on a lot of innovations here in Los Angeles that I can't speak on, but it could be the game-changing thing that could take my surfing to another level. So I might have to come back on the show and discuss all about it once we dial it in. But there's a lot of really cool innovations that, you know, I'm really digging into with a lot of really smart people, a lot of really motivated people. And, you know, it's about going to the next level. So doing that for the next month or so, training as hard as I can back home. I'm already, you know, the next winter swell at Jaws or Nazri or the Northern Pacific is not until probably November of this year. And so I'm training every day like it's tomorrow.

• 2:14:14Speaker 01

  And then after that, you know, I'm taking the family down to Indonesia, and we're gonna reset and go surf perfect waves, and then come back just, you know, firing.

• 2:14:26Rich Roll?

  Good to go, man. Awesome. Well, you got an open seat here when you're ready to come and talk about your big Manhattan project. I want to hear all about it. Maybe you'll tell me when we turn all this stuff off.

• 2:14:36Speaker 01

  No, for sure, yeah.

• 2:14:38Rich Roll?

  And that was super fun, man. Thank you.

• 2:14:40Speaker 01

  Appreciate it. Thank you. Mahalo.

• 2:14:51Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 2:15:36Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, The Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel

• 2:16:18Rich Roll?

  Solis, as well as Dan Drake. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  Namaste.