Marc Ching On Risking His Life To End Asia’s Dog Meat Trade

This week's guest is a straight up hero. One of the most courageous and committed animal rights activists I have ever met, Marc Ching (@animalhopeandwellness) is the founder of Animal Hope and Wellness Foundation, a non-profit devoted to the rescue and rehabilitation of dogs abused and often tortured at the hands of the Asian dog meat trade. A family man, successful small business owner and animal lover who has been treating dogs (and humans) for years as a holistic nutritionist, in 2011 Marc began using his skills to rescue and rehabilitate abused dogs in need and place them into homes — work he does primarily in and around his home in Los Angeles. But Marc's evolution into an ardent animal rights activist didn't begin until 2015, when he heard about something called the Yulin Dog Meat Festival in China. He understood that dog meat is simply part of the regional cuisine across many parts of Asia. What he didn't understand were the reports of mistreatment and abuse. So he decided to infiltrate the festival to learn more. What Marc discovered was an utterly horrific, systemic practice of torture far more pervasive than anything he could have previously imagined. Life for Marc would never be the same again. According to the Humane Society, 30 million dogs are slaughtered every year across Asia with an estimated 10 million per year in China alone. A significant portion of these animals are brutally tortured — often burned and boiled alive prior to death — a practice attributable to the bizarre and misguided belief that tortured dog meat tastes better and provides enhanced health benefits. Let that sink in for a moment. Attending Yulin transformed Marc from an essentially normal, suburban family man into a man obsessed. Over the last two years, Marc has devoted all his free time and resources to combating the Asian dog meat trade. Posing undercover as as a wealthy dog meat buyer, he has traveled extensively across China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, South Korea and Indonesia to document and expose the inhuman practices of this barbaric industry. This is dangerous work. Marc has been chased, harassed, beat up and even shot. But to date, he has saved over 1,000 dogs, many on his own dime. More importantly, his work has been essential in catalyzing global awareness of dog meat trade practices, which in turn has led to legislative and regulatory reform. There is something undoubtedly heroic about Marc. But it's a heroism that comes at a cost. This work has traumatized him. Perhaps even permanently damaged him. He's made peace with the trade-off. Maybe that makes him even more heroic. I don't know. Mark's work has been extensively profiled in outlets that include the New York Times, Forbes, Entrepreneur, The Hollywood Reporter, The Telegraph, The Independent, Buzzfeed, and even Breitbart. It's an honor to celebrate the difficult work that Marc does. My hope is that this conversation will raise additional awareness around wrongs we must collectively work to correct. NOTE: The subject matter of today's conversation is disturbing. It's an emotional conversation that traverses sensitive issues. That said, I believe it's an important conversation to have as conscious, global citizens. A conversation I don’t think we can or should shy away from. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I'm a huge believer in humanity. I wake up and I look at my children, and I see something that's so pure. And at that age, they don't know what violence is. They don't know how to hate yet. And I think that is what inspires me to do the things that I do. But I think the best thing, or the thing that I would ask of everybody, is just do a little more, regardless of what it is. You don't have to help us, you don't have to support us, but be more conscious and, you know, hug someone who's crying. I mean, something just like that could change a life and change the world, and so, yeah.

• 1:43Rich Roll?

  That's Mark Chang, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:58Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, people? It's Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Welcome or welcome back to the show where I get intimate and go long form with some of the most inspiring thought leaders and positive paradigm-breaking change makers all across planet Earth, or at least the ones who are willing to sit down with me, I suppose, right? Can you hear the rain on the roof, pitter patter? I'm in my office. It's driving me insane. Not much I can do about it. I hope it's not too distracting. For those that want to go the extra mile and support the work that I do, we have a Patreon for that, patreon.com/richroll. And thank you very much, you guys. But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible.

• 2:49Rich Roll?

  Today's episode. Today's episode is intense. It's very, very intense. It's a conversation with a guy called Mark Ching. He is @animalhopeandwellness on Instagram. And this guy is a straight-up hero, like, straight-up hero. By day, his occupation is as a holistic nutritionist, both for people and animals. He lives here in Los Angeles. He's basically a successful small business owner. But in just the last couple of years, he has become one of the most courageous and committed and devoted and passionate animal rights activists that

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  I've ever met. He's the founder of an organization called the Animal Hope and Wellness Foundation, which is a nonprofit that he started in 2011 after he realized that he could use his abilities, his skills, his training to rehabilitate abused dogs in need and place them into homes. And that's work that he did primarily in and around Los Angeles, where he lives. But then something happened. In 2015, Mark heard about something called the Yulin Dog Meat Festival in China, and...

• 4:03Rich Roll?

  He knew that people in China and across certain parts of Asia ate dog as part of their regional cuisine, that this is something that's been going on for a long time, that there is something called the dog meat trade that, you know, not only exists, but is very, very real. But beyond that, he didn't know much else beyond some nasty rumors. So he decided to travel to the festival to learn more about it. And what he didn't know was the vast extent to which dogs were being slaughtered. Thirty million dogs a year across Asia are slaughtered, with an estimated 10 million per year in China alone, according

• 4:43Rich Roll?

  to Humane Society. And a lot of these dogs are not just slaughtered, but in many cases are tortured and tortured brutally. And this is something that he discovered when he visited Yulin. And what he discovered was devastating. Basically, an incomparable amount of abuse and humanity and torture, just far more disturbing and horrific than anything he could have previously imagined. Essentially, dogs that are being brutally tortured by the thousands, if not the millions. And I'm talking about dogs that are being burned and boiled alive

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  before slaughtering them for meat out of this crazy misguided belief that tortured dog meat tastes better and somehow provides enhanced health benefits. It's just insane. It's difficult for me to even think about it. And that experience changed Mark forever. It really transformed him from essentially this normal suburban family man and dad and, you know, like I said earlier, successful business owner into this guy who became obsessed. He began devoting essentially all of his free time and resources to tirelessly saving dogs all across China

• 6:03Rich Roll?

  and all across different parts of Asia, including Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, South Korea, Indonesia. And often, he would go in or he goes in undercover, masking as a dog meat buyer. And in so doing, puts himself in very real, serious danger, mortal danger, in fact. I mean, he's been shot, you know, in the process of this work.

• 6:29Rich Roll?

  And so I think there's obviously something patently heroic about this, but I also think it's fair to say that this is an experience that has really damaged him, like significantly traumatized him in certain respects. And this is a subject that we discuss openly throughout the podcast. In any event, to date, Mark has made, I believe, seven trips to Asia and has saved hundreds and hundreds of dogs. More importantly, his work has been crucial in raising global awareness around the horrible mistreatment of dogs, which in turn has led to some pretty significant and substantial reform. He's enlisted the support of celebrities

• 7:12Rich Roll?

  like Matt Damon, Joaquin Phoenix, Rooney Mara, and Tony Kanal, all who appear in his powerful PSAs, Public Service Announcements. There's one in particular that I've embedded on the episode page on my website and have shared on social media. You guys should definitely check it out. It's difficult to watch, but really, really powerful. And beyond that, Mark and his work have been extensively profiled across a wide array of mainstream outlets like The New York Times, Forbes, Entrepreneur, The Hollywood Reporter, Mashable, Telegraph, The Independent, BuzzFeed, and even Breitbart, of all places. And I think, I think that's enough. I think I'll let Mark take the story from here. And I'll leave you with this, with

• 7:56Rich Roll?

  fair warning, that this is a delicate and sensitive and at times disturbing subject matter. And this is a conversation that gets into all of that. It gets quite emotional at times. But I also think it's an important conversation to have. And I think it's one that I don't think we can or should shy away from. So I please encourage all of you to listen and listen with an open mind. So without further ado, I give you Mark Chang.

• 8:32Rich Roll?

  All right, man, you ready to go?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yep, ready.

• 8:34Rich Roll?

  Right on, Mark. Well, thanks so much for schlepping out to the house. I appreciate it. It was great to meet you at the Circle V event a couple of weeks ago. And I'm excited to sit down and unpack your life story, your life mission, and the amazing things that you're doing. It's pretty remarkable and inspirational. And I know that you're not comfortable wearing the moniker of hero, because I know that word gets thrown around a lot. It makes you a little... I've noticed some of the words that you've said on Instagram and Facebook. But I think it is heroic what you do, and it deserves to be celebrated. And I'm just happy and proud to be able to shine a light on your work. So thanks for coming by.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. Thanks.

• 9:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so where to begin here? Why don't we start with how you got into this whole world of dog rescue to begin with?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Our foundation is called Animal Hope and Wellness. It started about, I think about five and a half, six years ago. And it started like, I think how most people start, just with one dog. I never thought it was going to turn into a foundation or an organization. But I run this company called Pet Stront, which is like 24-hour holistic care for animals. And it's free, and I don't know, I'm kind of good at what I do. And so I use like what I've learned in life to treat animals holistically. And then through my rescue, I apply it to the dogs that we take. And so we specialize in cruelty and abuse.

• 10:07Rich Roll?

  Did you... Was there... Like, what was the first dog? I would imagine this began long before you started taking trips out to Asia, right?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. So the first dog is a dog we kept named Ginkgo. And so even the second dog that we ever got, we kept her too. They were both cruelty cases, both beaten.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  I swore he had brain damage, but now he seems normal. So

• 10:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  And then our third dog we kept as well, but we ended up rehoming like two years later. Uh, he was a bait dog and for some reason he just started attacking all the other rescues one day. And I couldn't, I don't know. I tried to, I just couldn't help him the way I was supposed to. And so I put him in a great home and he, he, he's very happy. So.

• 10:56Rich Roll?

  So were these dogs that were coming from abusive homes or how did you discover these dogs? Like, how did it, how did you find, how did they end up crossing your path?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Well, you know, in the dog world in LA, you get to know people, you know, animal control, people who work at the shelter. So that's kind of how it started. Uh, it also started like, we had this one big case named Staples. Somebody stapled this dog's mouth closed, threw acid on him, beat him up. And we got the case. It was such a high profile case that people found out that we did cruelty case, cruelty work. And so after that, everything picked up and we started getting all these calls. And so we get calls weekly, even daily sometimes.

• 11:39Rich Roll?

  And so when you, when you would take on one of these dogs, do you then try to, so are you, you're taking, you're, you're sort of nursing them back to health, but then are you also uh, housing them or are you trying to find the homes for them? Like, how does that work?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Well, so most cruelty cases have major medical issues and so we hospitalize them until they are stable enough to go into foster care. Or, you know, if they're not that bad, they go into our shelter. So we have a physical shelter.

• 12:05Rich Roll?

  You do have a shelter here in Los Angeles, right? So how many dogs do you have in there now?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Uh, I think right now we have 16, but sometimes we have 30 or 40.

• 12:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  And what is, before we, you know, get into, you know, all the adventurous stuff that you do, like I'm interested in.

• 12:22Rich Roll?

  Sort of parsing fact from fiction when it comes to the world of, you know, purchasing pets and adopting pets, you know, what's really going on with these pet farms? Are you doing good when you adopt a dog from, you know, these other places? What's reality and what is hype and what, you know, what is the current state of how that whole operation like that business in that world functions?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  You know, when it comes to like breeding and adopting, I'm very pro adoption, like pro, pro. However, I try to be non-judgmental and let people decipher themselves. There's so many dogs dying every day and cats in every city in the US and it's because of, you know, people don't take advantage of the shelter system that there's every single breed you're looking for is there, you know, and they're just waiting to have a chance, waiting to find what we're all looking for, which is love. And so while I'm pro-rescue and pro-adoption, I understand why people go to breeders as well. I think it's miseducation and so one thing that we're doing, which is pretty

• 13:32Speaker 01

  great about our foundation is we're starting a shelter program with elementary school to take the fifth grade class to shelters. One is going to be our shelter and the East Valley Shelter, which is one of the largest shelters in LA, to teach them about adoption, about dogs and cats, what to do when you see a stray, things like that.

• 13:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  I think if we start young, then children as they grow older into adults, they'll be more pro-adoption as well, you see? And so everybody's looking for this perfect dog, but the dog becomes perfect in your home as you teach it and it doesn't matter what issues they have, you know, part of being in a family is to overcome those things. And so I think adoption's important and more people should participate.

• 14:17Rich Roll?

  And is there a difference, but what, or if so, I'm presuming there is, but the difference between? Uh, going to a breeder, you know, like where there's, I don't know, farm or lots of space where you, you know, buy a dog versus these puppy mill pet store sort of dogs. Like what's behind the scenes and how that functions?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  I think they're the same.

• 14:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, are there reputable breeders? Of course. You, you know, do they have good practices, small litters? Of course. Uh, most breeders, and like I said, uh, don't, don't like quote me on this because I don't know, but I assume most breeders are in it for the money. And so when you're in it for the money, you're trying to mass produce. You, you, you know, when you're in it for the money, uh, your, your agenda change, your agenda changes and so the product changes. You know, an animal isn't really a product. It's, it's no different than us. And so, I don't know, like,

• 15:17Speaker 01

  there's so many lives that are lost daily because of over breeding. And even though if you're a responsible breeder, I still believe that people should push adoption in shelters and in rescues.

• 15:29Rich Roll?

  So you have this, you have this holistic practice where you're treating animals, treating pets. Uh, it's also a pet store, right?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Uh, well, we have a pet store built around.

• 15:40Rich Roll?

  Like the food part of it, right?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  So it's a pet store with supplements, nutraceuticals, food, built around diseases. And so for instance,

• 15:53Speaker 01

  cancer, uh, itching, dermatitis, allergies, our whole store is built around that concept. So things that we carry, they deal with specific issues. So like a fungal enzyme for itching, if you have hot spots or ear infections or probiotics for diarrhea, things like that.

• 16:10Rich Roll?

  Right, like almost like an Ayurvedic practice for treating animals. That's, I've never heard of anybody else doing that.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so we're, we're, we're pretty popular.

• 16:18Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's really cool. So you have this cool life where you have, I think you have a couple of businesses, right? Like you're sort of an entrepreneur, you're doing lots of things and you're getting into, uh, you know, rescuing and saving these animals and things sort of took a turn for you, right? Like when, you know, enter, enter the world of, uh, you know, the Asian sort of, uh, world of dog slaughter and torture for food, right? So how does that come into your awareness?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  I never, I mean, I'm Asian, so I knew that. You know, Asian people eat dogs. I was very aware of that growing up. I never knew that there was this cruelty aspect involved. And it's not involved in every country or across the board, but it's involved enough that it's grotesque and it should be stopped. Last year, I think it was May or April, I started seeing these pictures on the internet about the Yulin Dog Meat Festival. I'd never heard of that before. When I saw it, I actually thought it was like some media propaganda. And so I'd see these images and I saw it over and over. And then I started to research it and then I found out that they had a festival where

• 17:33Speaker 01

  they do these things, where they hang these dogs and...

• 17:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, explain exactly what the Yulin Dog Festival is.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  So the Yulin Dog Festival is every June. And it's called the summer solstice where the season is changing. And in Yulin, which is a big dog meat eating, I guess, city, people come from all over to participate in an event.

• 17:56Rich Roll?

  All over China.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  All over China, correct. Where they participate in an event to eat dogs. It's only started like a few years ago. I think it was 2010 or 2009, something like that. So it's a new event. But, you know, the pictures and the things you see on the internet, they're real. And so...

• 18:18Rich Roll?

  And so there's this, it's not just that they're celebrating dog as cuisine. There's a whole other aspect of this, which is not just the mishandling, but the beating and the torturing of these animals, which is interwoven into this culture of what it means to enjoy dog as a food, right? Like, explain how that plays into the whole equation.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  You know, every country is different. And so even though I've been doing this for a while, I'm still no expert on it. There's some people in Asia or other parts that say that's not a part of it and some people that say it is. And so where the truth lies, I guess it's just like religion. You know, where the truth lies for people's beliefs. But from some people I've talked to and interviewed and from multiple major sources worldwide...

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Cruelty is a consistent theme in the dog meat trade where they think, you know, on the internet, there's this post published by the president of North Korea that said, you know, he's promoting the eating of dogs, but saying that you have to beat them, burn them alive and torture them in order to get the full benefit from the meat. And so, some regions believe this.

• 19:37Rich Roll?

  And the idea behind that is that it improves the, the sort of health, the purported health benefits of eating this food because of the release of all of these hormones that happen when you're in fear?

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Uh, some of them, yes, correct.

• 19:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and so what are, what are those purported health benefits that?

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Well, there's a whole.

• 20:00Rich Roll?

  Not that they do support that, but like, what do they say that this is about?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Some countries like Korea, I know, they say when it's really hot, it cools your body. Uh, in China, when it's really cold, it might warm you up, or, or it might be a vice, you know, flipped. Some fertility and sexual stamina, uh, some, you know, I went to Indonesia to this place i- in Sulu where they said they take the bile out and they use the bile of the dog after beating the dog for, to, to cure diseases like cancer, when you're having diarrhea. And so, it varies from region to region, what they believe. Why it's hard for me to give like, I guess like full accuracy on what beliefs are is

• 20:50Speaker 01

  because I don't even speak the language. And so there's always that barrier, but also too, when I'm there, I'm undercover, so I don't really ask questions. You know, I come in as a buyer and they show me, you know, their operation, the kill floor, people are working, things like that.

• 21:07Rich Roll?

  So you first read about the Yulin Dog Festival, what, like 2014, something like that?

• 21:14Speaker 01

  2015, actually.

• 21:16Rich Roll?

  2015, and then when do you decide like, I have to go there and check this out for myself?

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Well, I tried to go. For for last year, but you know, I married and my wife thought I was crazy.

• 21:30Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  And then, I don't know, after the festival finished, I kept seeing pictures. I I was reading about it and I still told myself it's impossible that people

• 21:44Speaker 01

  that that they can do those things. And so in September, in August, actually, a few months after the festival, my wife said, look, if you have to go, just go. I left the next month. And so.

• 21:58Rich Roll?

  And did you have like an agenda at that time? Or were you just going to kind of suss it out and get an idea of what exactly is going on?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Well, when I left, I mean, like, I left, I had one backpack and I had a ticket. And I didn't realize that the internets filtered in China. I just, I, you know, and it was just sort of sheer ignorance. I didn't even do research. I just, I just left. I saw some things on the internet of places where I was gonna go. Uh, I didn't even have a hotel. And so I arrived there and I don't know, I don't wanna say I just got lucky because now when I look back on how hard everything's been, it's kind of terrible. But for my first trip, I was pretty fortunate to meet people that were able to guide me to the places I needed to go.

• 22:41Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Uh, to start what we have started.

• 22:43Rich Roll?

  But you went alone that time?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 22:46Rich Roll?

  That first time, right? So kind of explain to me what you discovered.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Well, so I landed, I flew into Beijing international. And when I landed there, uh, I didn't have a hotel. But I called American Express because I have a credit card from them. And they actually got me a hotel, you know, the concierge. And so I caught a taxi there. And like, I think it was about 10 o'clock or something. And I wanted a drink because I didn't know what else to do. And so I went to a bar that was real close to my hotel. And in Beijing, there's a lot of Westerners. And so I met one and asked him, hey, where's all the dog meat restaurants and the slaughterhouses? And he said, they don't eat dogs here anymore. And I was like,

• 23:31Speaker 01

  they don't eat dogs here anymore? You sure? He was like, they they don't. And I was like, wow, I guess. And so I called my wife and I said, I guess I'm gonna see the Great Wall of China because like, you know, all that stuff was a scam. And then I had gone to the next place over. Just so it happened, I'm walking around and went into another bar, restaurant thing. And I met somebody that I'm still in contact with, it's part of my team now. And I had, you know, he'd ask, oh, what are you doing out here? And I said, well, I came to see dog meat, you know, and what they're doing to these dogs, but they say it doesn't exist. And he said, no, it exists. You just, they push it outside of the city because it was giving China a bad name.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  And so he introduced me to a guy that knew everything. That still helps me today, uh, does a bunch of research for me. Just found all these new slaughterhouses for us, everything. And so that's kind of how it started.

• 24:26Rich Roll?

  Right, and so where was the first place that you went to visit? Slaughterhouse, I mean, how far is Yulin from Beijing?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Oh, ten hours.

• 24:34Rich Roll?

  Ten hours, okay, so, so you decided you're gonna go pop in on one of these slaughterhouses like unannounced? I mean, how did it, what, you know, what were the logistics of how you approached it?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Well, my first trip, the first few places I went, it wasn't even a slaughterhouse. It was places where they breed dogs, kind of like in America, puppy mills and stuff. And, uh, that's where they guided me to, it's called the Liwan Province. It's like the black market for dogs. They pump them up with steroids and they do all these things to them. However, they train them, uh, using all these methods that is considered very abusive and cruel. And so when I went there, it was so overt, the, the miscare and mistreatment of the dogs that I was blown away. I saw them, you know, if a dog was sick, they'd just kill them. There's dogs on the road, dead. And that was my first experience there.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  I rescued a few dogs there, uh, took them to the vet, boarded them until they were healthy and brought those dogs to America. Uh, after my first day, well, after my second day, because my first day I was meeting those people. I went to Guangzhou because they found the slaughterhouse. When I went, they got me a translator who, when he found out where I was going, he just abandoned me. And I still got to the place I needed to go because I caught a taxi with this woman who spoke English. I paid her to stay in a taxi with me and they took me to the slaughterhouse. And even documented it, it's on like Facebook and all that stuff. And I sat out of the slaughterhouse and I told myself, wow, how am I gonna get inside?

• 26:06Speaker 01

  I think I was there for about an hour or something before I got inside. I saw a truck come and they have those dog trucks and they're unloading all the dogs in these cages. And so that's kind of like when I pushed in. And when I went in, there were dogs in the ground, they were butchering them. And it was all bad. You know, I couldn't speak the language and so they didn't understand what I was doing. And things got hostile very fast. And I ended up leaving.

• 26:35Rich Roll?

  For clarity, it's legal to slaughter dogs for food in China, right? So it's not like they were breaking any laws, but are there laws around abusive treatment? Or anything else?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  There's no cruelty laws at all.

• 26:49Rich Roll?

  So the aggression that you were on the receiving end, you know, what is that coming from? Like if they're doing something in their mind, that's perfectly legal. And I would imagine they've rationalized as ethical.

• 27:02Rich Roll?

  Why feel threatened?

• 27:04Speaker 01

  So I go all over to all different countries. In China and in Korea, they are very threatened. Why is because the movement and the pressure against dog traders and dog meat is so big that they're scared and pressure is building every day. And these people, this is their livelihood. And so they are scared, they're angry, they're violent, some of them. In some other countries like Cambodia and things like that, they're not so scared. They're not so secretive. A lot of things are done in public settings. You know, there's a video that I recorded in Indonesia that is always questioned like how to get that video. It's actually in a public setting.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  It's at a marketplace where they burn dogs alive. And so if anybody went there, you would see it because it's a daily activity. And so, but in China, especially because of all the negative attention that the dog meat trade has brought, dog traders are very.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  They're very against the media cameras, they'll rip them out of your hands, they'll attack you to take them, things like that.

• 28:12Rich Roll?

  Right. So you being Asian actually plays in to your favor quite a bit, right? Like, because they can't immediately identify you initially as a Westerner.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  They can't, no.

• 28:23Rich Roll?

  Who's coming to do that, right? And I'm just curious, like, in these cultures, do they also have dogs as pets? Or do they?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  They do.

• 28:33Rich Roll?

  They do?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  And so...

• 28:35Rich Roll?

  So there's that weird disconnect.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Well, I'll say this, a lot of people think like the movement against the dog meat trade is anti-Asian, it's not, or at least the one I represent is not, you know, I'm Asian. What it is, is this, is that in China, there's billions of people, it's only a small percentage doing these things. There's a huge, growing, young generation that loves dogs and cats. And if you go out there, especially if you're in the animal activism industry, you see it. You know, a lot of the tension, and this is why some Asian groups don't like our group, because we currently, I don't know why, but maybe social media or whatever, we're in the spotlight.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  And these groups say, hey, we've been doing this for years, and this guy comes, gets all the attention. And so, it's always important to point out that without the locals, without the groups on the ground in those countries, change is not possible. You know? All we did was bring attention, raise awareness, and do something a little different from other groups, to try to help the people on the ground that need to make the change.

• 29:48Rich Roll?

  So you discovered this slaughterhouse, and I would imagine that was rather shocking. You know, what's the next move? I mean, I would imagine that that allowed you to come in into an awareness that whatever you were reading on the internet, you know, whatever you were imagining was as bad, if not worse, than you previously thought.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  You know, to be honest, I took this first trip, I rescued all these dogs, rescued a sheep, freed a chicken.

• 30:17Rich Roll?

  And how are you getting these animals back to the United States?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's actually very expensive, but we board them at vets and then uh after the quarantine period, we would fly them home.

• 30:28Rich Roll?

  Right, so you have to buy an airplane ticket for each one of them.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 30:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, wow.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  And so, but we use services uh and it makes it easier. But after my first trip, I came back to America and I I didn't even know that people were watching, but I was posting as I was doing this on the internet. And just to be honest, I came back and I felt like a hero. I I'm not gonna lie. That was my first trip. And so that pushed me to go on my second trip. My second trip, I went to China and South Korea. The second trip is when I think my life changed. My first trip wasn't about slaughterhouses. It was about finding out, hey, does this exist? Is this factual? And it was. My second trip, I researched and I planned it. I actually planned, which my first trip I didn't. And so I found all

• 31:15Speaker 01

  these places that I went, that I was gonna go to, actual slaughterhouses. And so I think I wasn't prepared to watch or to see what, I don't know, what human beings are capable of. And so that changed everything. And it's from there.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  You know, it's from there that

• 31:45Speaker 01

  it's a downhill decline. And so

• 31:48Speaker 01

  since then, you know, I've taken more trips.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  You know, and

• 31:56Speaker 01

  so it's hard to talk about.

• 31:57Rich Roll?

  That's fine. Take your time.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  But once things change from

• 32:07Speaker 01

  rescuing dogs to trying to stop a movement or trying to stop what they're doing, it changes. You know, you see things that I never thought people could do.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  You know, and

• 32:24Rich Roll?

  In other words, when it, when, when the advocacy kind of matures out of what it feels like to just save an animal into the politics of actually trying to catalyze political and legislative change, when you run into these, into these forces that you didn't anticipate?

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Well, not exactly. What I mean is this, is that, you know, in America, when people rescue dogs, it's different. These things don't exist. In Asia, where they're hanging a dog and beating him up and throwing him in boiling water, that exists. And so I started, I don't know why, I woke up one day and I said, if I could document and expose what happens on the inside of a slaughter house in regards to their beliefs about, hey, if we abuse this dog, the meat will taste better. I thought that you could stop it. In America, it raises so much awareness. Factory farming,

• 33:28Speaker 01

  people go in, they, they video the pigs. And so what we do is no different. And so I thought that, I just thought that it would be different because nobody was doing it. And it would be a way to bring attention and to get the government to focus on the issues that, hey, we should ban this and make it illegal because it's wrong. I wasn't prepared to, I guess my mind or who I was wasn't prepared to see what they do. And that's a breaking thing. That's what's hard. You know, I know like people do it all the time, go undercover into horse slaughterhouses or cow slaughterhouses

• 34:11Speaker 01

  or, and sometimes I wonder how they're saying, how do these people like live their lives normally? It's just, but that's what I mean, like the decline and when they die is just emotionally and so.

• 34:39Rich Roll?

  You have to find a way to take care of yourself and protect yourself while you're doing what you do if you want to be able to continue to do it, right? And the sense that I'm getting is that you have a very permeable boundary around you and you let that stuff really seep in and affect you. And I'm sorry for that. But my hope is that you can find a way to exercise a little self-care because you won't be able to continue to be of service. It will just eat you up from the inside out.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  It's easier said than done.

• 35:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I can imagine. And you know, I'm speaking from a place of sympathy, not empathy, because I haven't placed myself in those situations. So, you know, I can't imagine what that must be like. But are you comfortable kind of explaining a little bit about what that world looks like?

• 35:42Speaker 01

  You know, September 1st, 2015, I remember, you know, I just brought my ticket to go to Asia. I left on like the 2nd or something. And I remember I was talking to my wife and I told my father, "Hey, I'm gonna go rescue dogs in Asia." And then I went out to dinner with my wife and we're talking about like, you know, life. And at that time, I remember telling her like, "I couldn't be happier. You know, I have two kids, they're healthy. You know, my businesses are successful. We do a lot of charity work. Foundation was successful."

• 36:24Speaker 01

  And I just, at that time in my life, you know, life is never 100% perfect, but I could have never imagined, it just, I was happy. You know, a lot of people search their whole lives to find happiness and I had it. Now...

• 36:47Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes I wonder if happiness is possible again. It's funny, like, the more trips I took, the worse.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  You know, the darker it became. And then I used to use my children. I used to do great children, I used to use them as the catalyst to be, I guess, non-societal, or whatever you call it.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  And then, there became a tipping point when that wasn't even enough. And so, it's weird being dead inside, but you're still alive.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  And then now I think like, if I can just get them to pass a law to stop it,

• 37:34Speaker 02

  I'll have everything back, but I know that's not true.

• 37:40Rich Roll?

  But you've gotta take comfort and solace in the fact that you really are moving the needle. You know, you have created global awareness of something that I think most people are completely ignorant of and have no awareness whatsoever of. And your work has been meaningful. And there are, you know, change is afoot, I think change, change takes time. And it's gonna require patience and diligence, but, you know, I commend you for putting yourself out there, but you should know that it's not, you know, it is making a difference.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  I understand that. You know, I tell people, I don't see what they see. And I think like, people who live in the states that maybe I do, or you don't see, you don't see the sun, even though the sun's there. You know, you don't see the change-making, or the people that follow the movement, that make that connection and it changes their lives. And you don't see that when you look at, or when you look out of your own darkness. It's hard, you know, but I'm very aware of it, because, you know, we have brains, and so we can think about those things.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  I think...

• 39:00Speaker 02

  That I wasn't born to do this. I think some people are. I think some people that they're made stronger or something so like they can bear it and do this great work and still live a life and be successfully happy. I I I believe that people are born like that. I think I'm the opposite. I think that seeing the things that it destroys you so much that you can't stop because you remember the dying or you hear their screams and it compels you and pushes you to save them. You're not risk to your own family, to your own life, to your children.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  And so I think I'm on this opposite spectrum that these people maybe are not meant to do this kind of work. I don't know.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  It's heartbreaking, you know. It's heartbreaking to hear you say that. You talked to Gene Bauer about this and several other people and, you know. It's similar. I mean, Gene, you know, goes, him and his team and his people go into these horrific factory farming situations, knowing that, you know, it's like he's got what, three or four farms? Like, he can't, you know, he can take a few animals and that's it. So how do you move forward and and and and feel okay about the fact that you're that's like a drop in a huge bucket, right? So the way that he kind of wraps his head around it and is able to move forward is to say,

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  I use these farms to educate people and I have to use this as a platform to broaden awareness. And he's got to be able to find a way to sleep at night and continue to go on so they can continue to do the work. I guess, you know, they just celebrated 30 years. So he's been doing it like for a super long time.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Incredible.

• 40:55Rich Roll?

  My fear is that you're gonna you're gonna flame out because the toll that it's taking on you is so severe.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:04Rich Roll?

  But, you know, you can't serve unless you take care of yourself. You gotta keep, you gotta, you gotta make sure your cup is, is full a little bit, right? Especially for your kids.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:13Rich Roll?

  You know? How old are your kids?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Uh, five and a half and three and a half.

• 41:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  It's awesome. You, you know, like.

• 41:20Rich Roll?

  And what are, are they old enough to understand what you do? Like, how do they process that?

• 41:25Speaker 01

  They, they, they understand fully. You, you know, I don't know. We're, we're kind of an animal rights family. And so like,

• 41:34Speaker 01

  every night, you know, I work a lot, but the nights that I'm home to be with my children, we talk about our, our dogs. They're all cruelty cases. From two, from the dog meat trade, three, local abuse. We always talk about it and we talk about other animals and things. And so when I go to Asia, they're very aware of what I'm doing.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  You know, it's weird, like, the perspective of a child. You know, my son, I don't know, he's like me. And so when he talks to me about things, you, you know, I think I suffer from depression or something now. But I took this big Yulin trip, which I call Trip Seven, which is probably when we got international kind of like notoriety. And when I came back, I fell into like this huge, deep, dark depression. And it was so bad that I, I thought about shutting down the foundation. And, and, and I left. I, I just left. I left California. I went back home and I took my family, saw my dad. And it was just weird, cause

• 42:41Speaker 01

  I thought my dad was gonna have me quit.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  You know, his son's going out there, getting beat up.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  You know, just losing his mind. When I went home, me and my dad and my son went to a beach and we're just hanging out there. And my dad said,

• 42:59Speaker 02

  He said,

• 43:04Speaker 02

  you know, life haven't told you much of what to do.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  But he said, the one thing you can't do is you can't quit. You can't quit because

• 43:18Speaker 02

  they're dying out there.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  And it was so strange that my son, who's only five years old, had told me. He was like, when you leave, I know what you're doing. I know that you might die, you might not come back home.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  But when you leave, I'm strong enough to take care of mommy.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  And you're strong enough to be there for the dogs.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  And it was so,

• 43:54Speaker 02

  it was so moving, the way a five-year-old child talks to his father about something so dark and something so disheartening for our family. And he said,

• 44:08Speaker 02

  you wouldn't quit on me. So I went on a trip eight, trip nine.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  And I guess I'm gonna do it until things change. So.

• 44:23Rich Roll?

  Nine trips.

• 44:26Rich Roll?

  And not just China, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand. Where else have you been?

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Indonesia, Philippines, been to Korea, Mongolia. Everywhere that they have the dog meat trade. So.

• 44:50Rich Roll?

  And what kind of uh personal harm are you placing yourself in by showing up at these places? And and and perhaps you can walk us through kind of this this elaborate ruse that you've constructed that gives you entree into this world?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  I think, I don't know.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  It's less dangerous than people think, but it's still not safe.

• 45:15Rich Roll?

  Well, you've been assaulted, you've been beat up, you've been shot, you got shot, right? Or shot at, uh, you've been jailed?

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Uh, no, just detained.

• 45:24Rich Roll?

  You know, so you could downplay it, but you know, it doesn't sound so safe to me.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Well, if you look at it like I'm a foreigner who can't speak the language and so I'm at the mercy in not every country is like this, but some districts are very, very, very poor. And so, you know, so much corruption and so much things like that. But if you look at the amount of countries I've been to, how many times, how many trips, how many slaughterhouses? And I've only been hurt six times. To me, that's not that bad, you know? Most places, when you go undercover as a dog meat buyer, it changes things. The times that I've been hurt are times that I haven't been able to control myself. And so I've acted

• 46:11Speaker 01

  out, you know, anger is universal. You you you don't have to speak Chinese for someone to know that you're angry. And when those things happen, aggression builds and tension builds and consequences happen. And so those are the circumstances when I or harm came to me, you see?

• 46:31Rich Roll?

  Right. But the idea is that you have this team and you sort of create in advance an entree into this world by posing or presenting yourself as a dog meat buyer in the United States, like a rich, wealthy American businessman. And you have somebody on the ground make this introduction. And so you're presented to these slaughterhouses and to these, you know, sort of the people that are doing this, that are in this world as somebody Who is aligned sort of with what they want and that you want to purchase these dogs and bring them back to America for purposes of slaughtering them for food, right? So that's the that's the story that you're telling.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 47:14Rich Roll?

  And in doing that, you're trying to broker this deal where they give you at least a few dogs that you can bring back because you want to you tell them you want to taste them and make sure that everything is okay, right? So that's how you are at least able to rescue a few right off the top.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 47:31Rich Roll?

  But now, I mean, this story is in has been published all over the internet and everything from, you know, BuzzFeed to Breitbart, like this story is out there. So does that make it more difficult now to do that? Or are people hip to like this thing that you're trying to pull on them? Or are they not reading it over there because the internet's filtered? Or how does it work?

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Well, these countries are so large, especially in rural areas that they don't have internet. They would have never heard of me. However, people should know that my time in undercover documentation is pretty much at its end. Now things have changed to where I did my job and we have to use this to push the government to make law changes. However,

• 48:19Rich Roll?

  Right. How many more videos do you need? I mean, your videos are horrifying and you've got like 300 of them, right? So it's like it tells the story.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  You know, and so but some places, especially my last trip, I took this trip. So Congress invited us to speak. And so I took this trip just for Congress.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  You know, government is so weird, like, let's say, like, I don't know, we got a call from the Chinese government not too long, not too long ago. They said, look, if you can provide documentation in the Guangxi area where the Yulin Dogme Festival is, we'll call a meeting with the mayor of Yulin and the chief of police. And so like, but they said, you have to have them talking in our dialect. You might have to throw a paper on the ground so they can see like this is happening now. And so the requirements are it's so crazy. It's just, you know, they're never satisfied with like, but anyways. You know, this last trip I took, I took it because we had this chance to bring attention to our government,

• 49:22Speaker 01

  where they were going to take a stance to pressure China to pass a cruelty law or to ban the dog meat trade. And so I took this trip. Many of the places in Korea we tried to get into, I couldn't because they already knew who we were. And so I had to use, I got some new documentation, but I had to use old documentation as well. And so like, I would assume my, my foray to do those things is quite at its end. Now, you, you know, this guy from Last Chance for Animals, Christie Rose, uh, I think they're the king of like undercover stuff. They're pretty great. He had told me that you have to learn how to create teams in these countries. He told me this on my fourth trip.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  And so we have, right now, uh, we have our undercover teams in Yulin. Uh, I have some in China, uh, getting documentation for the Chinese government. You know, it's good that way. So I don't have to do it anymore. I don't have to endanger my life. But mostly, you know, the, the possibility of me doing much anymore is very low.

• 50:31Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so you've made the US government aware of this. How, how did that go down? Like, did you, who did you contact or who have you spoken to?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Well, they actually reached out to us and they created this panel with other groups uh, to speak against the dog meat trade and to bring facts. And at this place, I assembled this clip of, which I call, I guess, a torture video. Uh, and I showed it to them and it was pretty intense and however, in the United States, the task is now to get all these congressmen to support the bill and co-sponsor it. Once it's co-sponsored by so many signatures, it goes to the floor and then you can vote on it to become like, I, I guess, a law or whatever bill. And so other groups as well, uh, we are starting to undertake the task where we're going to be going to the congressmen who haven't signed on.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  And I'm going to speak to them, tell them why this is important, how this bill can help your campaign. But also,

• 51:34Speaker 01

  I want them to see what they're doing. If you don't see it, first of all, you never believe it exists. But second of all, you don't witness or you don't share that moment with that dog. Once you see it and bear witness, you're pulled into that darkness. And only someone who's not a human being wouldn't want to save them. And so, right now, we're taking the steps to kind of build that structure so we can go around and speak to these congressmen and lobby them to support the bill.

• 52:11Rich Roll?

  Right. Speciesism is a weird thing, you know, in, in certain parts of Asia where it's perfectly acceptable to eat dog. Whereas here, we eat, we eat pigs and, and we treat pigs similar, you know, similarly in that regard. But I, I think in terms of like rallying public support around a bill that would, you know, petition our federal government to take a stand vis a vis China on this, would not be difficult to do from a popular vote perspective because there's no human being that I know, you know, at least in, you know, Western culture, who, who would be in favor of this, right? I think it gets tricky, however, when you start dealing, when you start to consider

• 52:56Rich Roll?

  the trade implications that we have with China and, you know, what that would mean in terms of ruffling feathers. And it gets complicated, right?

• 53:03Speaker 01

  It does.

• 53:04Rich Roll?

  So that's the barrier, I would imagine.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  You know, our foundation is sponsoring a bill, the first bill of its kind, a federal bill to ban dog and cat meat eating in America. And so, we've already announced it. Congressman Hastings is supporting the bill. And in January, we're having this big briefing, this big release about it. In America, we don't really eat dogs and cats, even though it still happens. It's very, very, very small.

• 53:31Rich Roll?

  Where is it happening?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Well, there's reports, I mean, in Hawaii, I know it happens and it's, it's just, there's been reports that there's some out here. It's very scant, backyard stuff. You know, all animals are the same. We just so happen to be submerged in the dog meat industry.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  I think, or I've been told, we're going to have a lot of opposition because, you know, the Cattle's Association or all these things are going to say, you know, if they make dog and cat meat eating illegal.

• 54:03Rich Roll?

  The slippery slope argument?

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Correct. The rabbits come next, the ducks and all that stuff. And you know, whether or not the bill passes, the whole goal is to show these other countries that, hey, we're not perfect. And if we're going to ask you to do something, we better do it too. And so that's the kind of stance we're taking and why we're trying to do that.

• 54:22Rich Roll?

  And just to put everything in perspective, you know, the, the dog meat industry in Asia is not a small thing. It's like 30 million dogs a year are slaughtered, right? Something like that? Is that accurate?

• 54:34Speaker 01

  You know, the numbers, I, I, I couldn't really tell you. You know, I'm not a scholar on the topic, but it's a lot.

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:44Rich Roll?

  Is there any kind of international governing body that can put a word in on this? I mean, I know Humane Society International looks at this, but in terms of, of, you know, something beyond the United States federal government, some kind of international organization that can influence this behavior?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Well, there's a lot of groups fighting against this cause. I mean, not fighting against the cause, but fighting to ban the dog meat trade for many reasons. You know, while that's one of our goals too, I think a larger win is if there are cruelty laws passed or animal abuse laws or animal protection laws. I think that's protects more animals and it's more important about governing bodies. I don't know. There's so many problems in the world that I think the governing bodies attend to other things, you know, trafficking, trafficking, and like, I don't know, you know, and so.

• 55:40Rich Roll?

  Right. And but, but I, I did read that, you know, China's well aware now that there's a backlash against the Yulin, you know, dog event. And there are actually Asian protesters that are showing up at this, right?

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 55:54Rich Roll?

  So this is happening. There is a, there is a pendulum swinging in the other direction.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  It's, it's really the people in these country, in these countries that are going to bring about the change. And so it is growing and the movement and the support for the rights of these animals is raising awareness. I mean, I mean, it's growing and, and awareness is being raised. And so. I don't know when it will stop or when a law will be passed, but I know it will happen.

• 56:25Rich Roll?

  And how does all of this, you know, beyond what you've already kind of talked about, you know, how does, how does this work impact your, uh, the way in which you interact with other human beings, like in terms of your sort of level of compassion and acceptance and non-judgment and all these other ideals that are kind of part and parcel of, you know, the, the vegan movement?

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:51Rich Roll?

  For lack of a better phrase?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Well, I think I'm very different as a person, but maybe not. I'm this huge believer in compassion and no matter how dark I may feel inside or how dead I feel that I am, I'm a huge believer in humanity. I, I wake up and I look at my children and I see something that's so pure. And at that age, they don't know what violence is. They don't know how to hate yet. And I think that is what inspires me to do the things that I do. You know, in veganism, I'm pretty ashamed for this, but I took a long time to make the connection.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  You know, I've been rescuing dogs for a very long, for, for six years, maybe my foundation's been around. And it took me a long time to make the connection between dogs and other animals. And I don't know if the word's ashamed, but I'm not proud that it took me so long. When I first became vegan, and I don't even know if you can call it vegan then, but when I first started, stopped eating meat, it was because of this cruelty case we had named Gumby. They beat him up, removed his eyeballs, all this stuff. It was a local case. And driving up to drop him off to his parents last year, Father's Day, his new family,

• 58:20Speaker 01

  I don't know, it just hit me that, wow, this dog is no different from my own child that imagine, because he lived with us and he imagined it something that to my children and, and then I thought about like pigs and stuff and I think veganism, some people do it cold turkey and some people they evolved to it. You know, for me, the progression was slow. Now, I think it's hugely important. I think.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  I think it took me a long time to maturation to that place because some vegans are so in your face loud about it and they're so like, I don't know, they persecute you for not. And I thought, I don't know, I felt it was ugly to me and that was one barrier around it, you know, or one road blocking my way to find that. But, or I never knew why vegans were so proud, until now, now I understand it. You know, just by making a simple choice as to not to consume an animal, countless of lives are saved. Even if you don't get up and do anything and

• 59:25Speaker 01

  that's what you choose, you're making, you're making a choice to protect, you're making a choice to love. And it's amazing. And so, I, you know, I'm a young vegan, I'm probably a stupid vegan, meaning that I don't know all the history, or I don't know, like, all these great things, and I don't even know if I'm meaning correctly. Yeah. But I know this is that I want to do it for one reason, for the animals. You know, I don't do it because it's healthy or it's not healthy. I don't do it because I do it for that only. You know, I just found out about all these foods out there. I found out that they have eggs now, vegan eggs.

• 1:00:06Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Rich Roll?

  Well, the whole like, the whole movement of creating these meat analogues is really kind of hit its stride lately. So there's all kinds of crazy options available.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Rich Roll?

  You're a sensitive dude.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I'm pretty emotional.

• 1:00:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so, so I'm interested in, in, you know, in why that is, right? Like, you had a pretty interesting upbringing, grew up in Hawaii.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Rich Roll?

  In what sounds like, you know, not the best circumstances.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  Can you talk a little bit about that?

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Well, I'm adopted, and like, I don't know.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  When I grew up and I found out I was adopted, I didn't understand it. My parents are Asian and so in my whole life, they never told me that they loved me. And it's like, I don't know, I guess that's who they are and what they do. However, I grew up knowing that I was adopted. I kind of did understand it and so it was just hard for me. And I think I made a lot of bad choices.

• 1:01:11Rich Roll?

  Were you, did you know that you were adopted early on?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Early on, correct, yes, yeah. And like, I don't know, you know, now that I have children, I tell them every day that I love them. Maybe the word will get redundant, but it's important to say because in our society, maybe not my parents' generation, but in our generation, verbalism is very important. You know, not only the acts that we do, but what we say and so.

• 1:01:42Rich Roll?

  So you had one parent Korean and one parent Japanese?

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Well, I'm Korean-Japanese, but I'm adopted into a Chinese-Japanese family.

• 1:01:50Rich Roll?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so.

• 1:01:51Rich Roll?

  And grew up, went to high school in Oahu?

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  I went to elementary and high school in Oahu, correct. And then I came out here for college.

• 1:01:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  And so, yeah.

• 1:02:00Rich Roll?

  And you came out, what was the, what was the goal when you came out here? Or when you graduated? Like, what was it that you wanted to be doing?

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Well, my father and my whole family, they're stockbrokers. And so they're real like conservative capitalists. And so my father, being the oldest son, had raised me to be, well, I don't know, raised me to be that way, but he wanted me to take over his business. He's very successful. And like, I don't know, it's just, I'm not really about money. And so I tried it and I hated it. And I went back to doing what I think I was born to do, which is to heal people and animals, and I love it.

• 1:02:49Rich Roll?

  When did you get into the whole holistic healing?

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Well, I've been doing it for a long time, even when I was younger. You know, my grandmother like practices herbs and so I would, I would watch and learn and I just kinda adopted that over time.

• 1:03:02Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and why, why with animals as opposed to, you know, becoming a Chinese medicine doctor or something like that?

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Well, actually I have a human practice too.

• 1:03:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, you do?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  A lot of people don't know.

• 1:03:12Rich Roll?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  So I work with people, uh, why I'm real popular for animals is I think because I treat disease the same way how it would affect a human being. So cancer doesn't change based on if you're a dog, cat, an elephant, a hippo, a bird, or a person. Where vets have taken disease and changed it for animals. And so instead of, if you have cancer, eating a low starch diet, now you're on food that has corn in it, which just doesn't make sense. You know, if you have fungal dermatitis as a person, we minimize sugar and we put you more on your green vegetables and things like that.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  And for animals, it's different now. Now you're on the worst food ever and like you're using things, a steroid just to reduce inflammation. Where in a human, you, you would try to find the cause and so it's just different. So I treat the disease the same and I don't know, it's made me successful and good at what I do.

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  What is the, uh, what is your perspective on, on dog food and the dog food industry? People ask me all the time, you know, you're petting our dogs right now. I have, I have our dogs inside the room. Usually I put them out, but I'm like, dude, your hero's here. You guys gotta be inside for this podcast. Uh, a lot of people ask me all the time, like, what do you feed your dogs? And, and we've been experimenting with V-Dog and it's been working really well, but this is like new. And, and I just wanna be sure that I'm doing the right thing by my animals and I wanna make the compassionate choice. But I don't want to feist a diet on a canine that is gonna not, that's gonna make them unhealthy, right? So I'm sure people must ask you this all the time.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Of course, all the time. This is what I tell people. I decide for myself. I have a brain and I can think and I make my own choices. So I choose what I wear. You know, I'm very against leather and all those things and like I choose what I eat, stuff like that. For my dogs and for my patients, I do what I feel is best. I practice to the best of my ability to fulfill a need and to treat and to hopefully cure things that I'm supposed to cure. And when someone comes to me, that's, I think, my job and my duty. Even though my duty and my job is to serve the animals as well. I believe dogs can be vegan. Uh, will your dog become vegan and be successful?

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  Every case is different. You know, I, I help people go vegan and some dogs cannot make it. And is it that formula? Is there another possibility? I'm sure. But my job is to do the best I can for the families that I serve. And I don't know what or how people would think about that, you, you know, animal rights people that. But I try to look at myself only and I, I never look at my neighbor and say, wow, you, you, you, you eat pigs and you should die. Where, where, where, you know, it's okay to feel like that, but that's not how I feel. You know, my own family, my wife is not vegan, you know, and we actually fight about it quite often.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  But we, we don't fight about her eating meat. It's more my children. You know, I'm trying to raise my children to not eat meat. And so that's where our debate is about.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, in the end, I, I say, I do what's right for myself and I'll do the best I can for those around me. But dogs, they, they can be vegan. I'm actually coming out with a vegan dog food line. A kibble because a lot of the ingredients in the current kibbles that are vegan, they're all grains and things.

• 1:06:59Rich Roll?

  Grain based.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Correct. And so I've been formulating for a few months already, probably about six months. Uh, grain free versions and it takes time because, you know, palatability and, and just all that stuff. And so, but it should be out pretty soon.

• 1:07:14Rich Roll?

  That's pretty cool.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's just because like. A lot of people won't go vegan for their animals, even though they want to because when they feed such a high starch grain type of food, their dog will get hot spots or itching and things like that. And so we're going to try to make something that doesn't do that. Low starch, uh, legume based or something like that.

• 1:07:37Rich Roll?

  That's great. Yeah. I mean, I would love to be able to, uh, to try something like that.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:07:43Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll send you a bunch when it's done.

• 1:07:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Rich Roll?

  So has this experience, you know, visiting all of these horrific dog slaughterhouses overseas, does that paint or color or change how you perceive, uh, the food system in America? The factory food, you know, industrial complex that we have here? I mean, I would imagine it's raise your awareness about that.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  This is what I have to say.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Crimes are being done here too. And

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  I applaud the groups that go in, that do the documentation to expose it because that's what's needed to change it, you know?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  In my movement and the following that we have, it's grown. And so our following is larger than it was, you know, a few days ago, last year.

• 1:08:39Rich Roll?

  I think you have, I checked today, I think you have 122,000 followers on Instagram.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like that.

• 1:08:45Rich Roll?

  Amazing.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  A lot of them are not vegan. And so it gives us opportunity, which is great, to open the door to and helping them to make that connection. And so I don't always write about it, but I do write about it. You know, today I went to Crossroads, you've heard of that place, correct?

• 1:09:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  And I ate the Impossible Burger. But not only that, I went to Crossroads last night too. I have these buddies that I go out with. They took me to this kind of concert thing where this guy was singing, but he used his mic to speak about animal rights. And he talked about this movement that, you know, Chef Tal was making at Crossroads where

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  He's making food so people who are not vegan can taste vegan food and see what your choices are and how great it is. And so like, you know, I rarely post about these things on my site, but, but I'm going to because you can get the same thing and not have to kill animals. And it's so amazing.

• 1:09:45Rich Roll?

  That's how you win. That's how you win, you know, and just, and just so you know, I, I would imagine most people that listen to this podcast are not vegan.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Rich Roll?

  Right? Like I try to cast a really wide net and, and introduce people to a wide variety of ideas, but it's not like this is a preaching to the, of course, there's a lot of vegans that listen to this, but there's a lot that aren't. And also for people that don't know, Crossroads, not only is it an amazing restaurant in Los Angeles, it was voted like, I don't know, like the best or like one of the absolute top restaurants, not vegan restaurants, just restaurants in general, because Talrona, the chef there and the creator is such a magician with food. And nowhere does it say anywhere that it's a vegan restaurant. It's just amazing food. And the Impossible Burger is this new concoction.

• 1:10:35Rich Roll?

  This, this, it's, it's really kind of like a technology company where they're creating essentially like Petri dish meat, right? They're like growing, they're harvesting, they're harvesting meat without the animal, which is super interesting. I haven't tried it yet, but Uli, the founder, I'm, I'm going to get him on the podcast. He was at Circle V2.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  For the first time. So I'm interested to hear, yeah, yeah. So I'm interested to hear more about that. But I think, you know, ultimately, you know, to kind of recap what you're saying, you have to make the healthy ethical choice, the, not only the most convenient choice, but also the preferred choice. Not only does the food have to be good, it has to actually be better. And I think, you know, we're, we're moving in that direction in some pretty new and exciting ways. Because not everybody is going to just, is going to do it out of the kindness of their heart, or because they feel compelled or moved.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  You don't want to say this. I'll probably get attacked for this.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  You know, while being vegan to me is one of the best things you can do, I think it's okay to like that people are not, but they're trying to do better in their lives and trying to be more conscious of their footprint on their environment. I think every day gives us an opportunity to learn about animals or the trees outside or things like that, you know? But I also think too, like, I don't know, sometimes I read the comments on my wall that people make. And some people like, they'll get attacked for rescuing dogs, but they're not vegan, you know? And I just want to make a point that, you know, the world, if everybody just did something, it would be such a great place, you know?

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  And veganism is doing something too, but getting out and helping your neighbor or getting out and volunteering at a homeless shelter or adopting an animal, things like that, or speaking to your friend about veganism or having these options and introducing people to the Impossible Burger. Or, I don't know, I think that's the only way my children are going to live in a world that's just, that's more peaceful and so.

• 1:12:54Rich Roll?

  What's sort of shocking and disappointing about what you just said is that, is that you feel like you're going to be attacked for saying what you just said. Like, that's just, that's ridiculous, right? You're basically saying like, if everybody could just try to do a little bit better or has the gumption to just do one thing, like the world will be a better place. And you're, you're, you're, you're under fear of reprisal for saying that. And I think that emanates from a sort of vitriolic, you know, temperament that a lot of people in the movement have, where it's an all or nothing thing. And you have to do it a certain way or you're ostracized. And I think that's a huge problem, you know? I think we have to walk forward with a perspective of, you know,

• 1:13:38Rich Roll?

  creating a welcome mat for people that, you know, would like to take one step and aren't ready to go the other way. I mean, just the story that you told. In my story is very different, but it was certainly an evolution and it was probably impeded by all of those voices out there that make you feel like perhaps this isn't, you know, the friendliest movement that I could align myself with, right? And that's, that's, that's, that's holding everything back.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:14:15Rich Roll?

  So what do you, so you've, you've saved at this point

• 1:14:19Rich Roll?

  thousands of dogs?

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  We've saved a lot of dogs.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll?

  You went and shut down a bunch of slaughterhouses, right? And suddenly found, found yourself sort of responsible for like a thousand dogs on one of your trips, right? That you had to place and help. But a lot of these, a lot of these dogs die, right? Shortly thereafter because they're in such poor health?

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Well, so I'll kind of describe to you like what we do or so, so I've taken these nine trips and each one I think has gotten bigger than the next, except for trip seven. Trip seven was this huge Yulin trip. I went to all these countries first and then I ended it with Yulin. In Yulin, every year people sign petitions against this dog meat festival. Every year people hold rallies and it's, it's some disrespect to anybody who does that or anything that's ever happened for that. But

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  every year this festival still went on and I don't know, I, I, I try to think, I try to look into the future and see tomorrow and bring it to today. And that's what businessmen do, entrepreneurs do, and that's what you should do in rescue. That's what you should do in anything. And so I thought to myself, what can I do that's different? And I said, if I can go there and shut down for the festival, a number of slaughterhouses and restaurants, then what does that do that takes away all the inventory from the people? And maybe if I'm migrating from 12 hours away, catching a plane to come to see this thing? And I get there and there's hardly any dogs that the festival sucks, I'll never come back.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  And that's what was going on in my mind. And so that's what we set out to do. I wanted to shut down 12 and we shut down six. When I went to these places. You know, like I said, I'm not perfect and like, I just, I'm one guy trying to do his best. When I went to these places, man, they had hundreds of dogs.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  And I put this SOS out for help and all these big groups turned their back on us and they wouldn't help us. Not only that. Why is that?

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  I couldn't even tell you. You know, in dog rescue or in cat rescue and animal rescue, we're supposed to rescue animals. But I think it was political or whatever, but they turned their back on us. And so even some of those groups said, leave them. You know, you came what you did to do, leave them, let them die. And I couldn't, I couldn't leave.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  I couldn't and I couldn't because

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  imagine if they did that to people and someplace there is this human festival where all these children were there. And they're going to hang them and beat them or do whatever they do to them. And somebody came to rescue you or to shut these places down, but he left you there to be killed after.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  I couldn't live with myself and so

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  I asked for help and none came except for a group of monks who came. And they helped us and we rescued over a thousand dogs. And this group, they're called the Tree of Life and a lot of people have attacked them too. And a lot of people have attacked us over this big rescue. And a lot of people have it wrong. I didn't rescue dogs. I mean, I didn't go there to rescue dogs saying, I'm going to go get all these dogs. I went there to raise awareness to hopefully take away from the festival.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  In doing so,

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  thousand dogs, what do you do? Do I do what these groups told me to do, leave them to die? Or do I? Make the humane choice of saying, "I'm gonna free you." We had volunteers that helped us, that came with me to Yulin. Uh, you know Helen Reed, this guy Ben, Travis, a whole bunch of them. Without them, couldn't have been done. But without the Tree of Life, these monks who helped us, it was impossible. And so, the dogs were split up between three groups. The Tree of Life, the Gaoyao Ministry, they took about 350 dogs. We took 300. And the Tree of Life in Guangzhou took about 4, 450, something like 400.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  A lot of dogs died from disease. A lot of our dogs died too, out of our 300.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  Gaoyao had the less losses because, the least losses, because their dogs were much healthier than our dogs. And Tree of Life got the worst dogs. They got this slaughterhouse that we went to. I mean, if you saw the condition that these dogs were in, terrible. I mean, just terrible. And so, each group was responsible for their dogs. Like I said, we lost dogs. The Tree of Life in Guangzhou, when they got their dogs, they put out a distress call. I went from Nanning over to Guangzhou to help them. We brought in vets. I didn't know this, but monks, because they're Buddhists, had different beliefs from us. They don't believe in vaccines, they don't believe in vets, stuff like that.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  And so, we had a hard time helping them. But in the end, they still allowed some vets to come in. What we did, which was more successful, was we got local, small Chinese groups to step in. They took 100 dogs here, 50 dogs, 30 dogs, stuff like that. So we could get the Tree of Life number down to a sustainable number. And then we took 100 more. And so, there's a lot of criticism going around based on this big rescue. The criticism is about what? Well, a lot of the criticism is from other groups. A lot of Asian groups who cast doubt on what we did, who's saying that, "Where are these dogs now?" And like...

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Our foundation is not really the humane society. We are not like, I don't know, who else is big out there, these big groups. You know, really, it started off as just me. And I use my, and I write on Facebook and Instagram, and I write through my own experience. I write about how I connect to animals, I write about the suffering, what I feel, stuff like that. And it started like that, and it's still like that. And so we don't do these daily posts about, oh, my gosh, this dog got adopted, oh, my gosh, this dog's smiling in a tree, stuff like that.

• 1:20:46Rich Roll?

  Right, like you don't have the finances or the manpower to like follow through on every case and...

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  And so, you know, these dogs are out there, and I guess because we haven't posted much about it, that people wonder what happened to them. And, you know, in every group, things are going to be in disagreement. And so we had a volunteer that is, you know, he despises us now, and he has damaged our reputation in Asia. Said a bunch of things that weren't true. We're well documented, meaning that I'm smart enough to keep chats and save all this documentation. So when we have to show proof, we can. Some people have even said, Mark didn't go to Indonesia or these countries. And so a couple of days ago, I posted my passport because, and I had chose a while back not to defend myself anymore.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Because you can't, you know, there's going to be people that hate you, and there's going to be people that like you, and that's part of the game. And so, but I was advised from a big animal rights activist that I should. And so I posted my passport with all my stamps. I mean, you cannot deny that. Not only that, I'm posting, it's probably going to go up today, where all the dogs are, how they're doing now, things like that.

• 1:22:00Rich Roll?

  It's so insane, you know, to imagine that you have to defend yourself from attack when, you know, I'm looking at a guy who, you know, he's got a family, he's got a business, you could just be chilling at Starbucks in Sherman Oaks, you know? And you're making this decision to put yourself out there in harm's way and do work that's very difficult and heart wrenching, obviously. To be attacked, like it's beyond imagination. For making that choice, you know, that choice to actually stand up and do something.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  Sometimes I wonder what I'm gonna do. Like, like you said, I'm very, I don't know. People think I'm strong, but I'm not. I'm like the polar opposite. I'm actually very weak. I think my only good quality is that I'm compassionate and I believe in that so much that it's everything to me. You know, to feel, to absorb the attacks and it's, it's almost as difficult as walking into that slaughterhouse. Why is because when you're doing something for one reason only, and it's so personal, that reason, when you're attacked over it, it's obliterating.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  You know, if you're doing it for another cause, money or things like that, it might not be, I don't know. But when you do it because you feel so compelled to stop something because it's ruined your life and people attack you over it, it's mind blowing. And I just...

• 1:23:42Rich Roll?

  That's gotta be as, almost as hard to process as, as the animal suffering itself.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's bizarre and so...

• 1:23:50Rich Roll?

  And yet, at the same time, you have been able to direct the world's spotlight onto this issue. I mean, just in, in preparing for today's interview and going online to, you know, learn more beyond what I already knew, you've gotten a lot of press. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, people that have written about the work that you've done and like legitimate, like great, you know, news sources out there. And I watched the video with Joaquin Phoenix and Matt Damon and you've got these, you know, your friend Tony Kanal and, you know, a lot of amazing people who are giving voice to the work that you're doing. And I have to believe and hold out hope that that is, that it, that is, that is moving

• 1:24:33Rich Roll?

  the needle and, and will ultimately catalyze change.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  I hope you're right.

• 1:24:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think it's a good place to, to wrap it up. But the final, the final thing I'd love to hear, you know, some thoughts on from you is...

• 1:24:49Rich Roll?

  You know, if you're, if for people that are listening right now, who are, I would imagine there's people listening right now who had no idea this was even going on at all, right? And, and feel compelled to act, or to lend a helping hand, or, or who are wondering, how can I get involved? So, uh, the best place to do that is to probably reach out to you through the Animal Hope and Wellness Foundation, right?

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:25:13Rich Roll?

  Which is animal, animalhopeandwellness.org, is that, that's right, right?

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 1:25:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, and, and what, you know, what, what can the individual out there who's listening do?

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Well, I think the way people can help us the most is by raising awareness. You know, when we post, especially like when we post about the issue, you can share it. Right now, or coming up, our anti-dog meat, you know, our, our bill against eating dogs and cats, getting support for that is important. But I think the best thing, or the thing that I would ask of everybody is, just do a little more, regardless of what it is. You don't have to help us, you don't have to support us, but be more conscious and, you know, hug someone who's crying. I mean, something just like that could change a life and change the world, and so, yeah.

• 1:26:04Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, I think I will bookend it with saying that, uh, people should also check out your Facebook and Instagram. The Instagram is at animal hope and wellness?

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:26:18Rich Roll?

  Is that what it is? Where, uh, you write lengthy and quite poetic and heart-wrenching, literally essays about how you're emotionally processing what's going on, you know, juxtaposed against these, these images that you've collected as a result of these travels. And, um, it's really quite something, you know? And obviously, as we said earlier, it's, it's attracted a lot of attention, you've got quite a big following there. But I think that will give everybody a, a pretty solid glimpse into, you know, how you're, you know, how you're navigating all of this. And the Facebook page as well, right?

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Correct, thanks.

• 1:26:54Rich Roll?

  Is there anything else coming up? Are you speaking anywhere, or?

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Well, I have a-

• 1:26:58Rich Roll?

  Any other ways for people to connect with you?

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Well, I have a trip coming up in January. We have this big microchip initiative in China where we're gonna offer free microchips to all these dogs, so- When the trucks come in for Yulin, we can scan them and prove that all these dogs are stolen. You know, it's still the government's job to protect people's property. And so we're trying to do that right now.

• 1:27:24Rich Roll?

  So they're stealing, where are they stealing them from?

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  People's homes are just, yeah, a lot of the dogs are stolen. One thing that people might be interested in before we go is we're actually in the process of creating two programs for the public school system. One is the shelter program, but my foundation is creating, we're using Sherman Oaks Elementary as a charter example, but we're providing a vegan option for all the kids at the school and we're paying for it for two years.

• 1:27:56Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  And we're trying to use that as a model because my kids go there and they don't have that choice. You know, the milk industry and the meat industry, they're so wrapped up into the school and in that pyramid. And so we've had to reconstruct the pyramid and show them how they get their protein and things in our presentation. But I don't know, it's like change, it's gonna happen.

• 1:28:20Rich Roll?

  That's, that's really cool. I mean, that's very difficult to push that boulder up that mountain.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Oh, difficult.

• 1:28:25Rich Roll?

  Because the school lunch program is so entrenched and you know, there's a lot of money involved with that. So trying to get any change whatsoever in that world is really difficult. So that's, that's pretty amazing.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  You know, what we found out is if you make it free and it doesn't cost them, that's key. You make it free, so it doesn't cost them money. And, but not only that, you know, we told them you'll get media, it's a charter school, so people donate to them too.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  You'll get media, all these things will happen and like, yeah, you know, it doesn't cost you a penny.

• 1:28:56Rich Roll?

  Very cool. Hopefully that you could scale that and, and have that, that kind of program replicable in, in other schools across the country, right?

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a goal.

• 1:29:07Rich Roll?

  So if any principals or school administrators are, are listening, maybe reach out to Mark and, and you could provide some guidance.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be great.

• 1:29:16Rich Roll?

  Is that good?

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:17Rich Roll?

  All right, cool, man.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:18Rich Roll?

  Well, thanks so much. You know, the work that you do is very inspiring. It's very important. I don't know anybody who could not get behind the idea

• 1:29:32Rich Roll?

  that what you're doing to end the suffering and the abuse of dogs is not work of the highest calling. And I hope that you find a way to continue to advance your message. And I'm here to be of service to you. If there's anything I can do for you, please let me know. And try to take care of yourself, too.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:29:54Rich Roll?

  Thanks. Peace. Plants.

• 1:30:01Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys, we did it. Thank you for listening. I hope that you were impacted by that. I hope that you learned something. I hope that that helped elevate and raise your awareness about an issue, like I said in the intro, that deserves our attention and deserves our focus and that I think is really worth talking about. If you have a minute, please take a moment to check out the PSA that Animal Hope and Wellness produced, that Mark produced. It's embedded on the episode page for this podcast. And as always, please make a point of checking out the show notes. I've got tons of links and resources, a lot of articles about Mark and his work

• 1:30:42Rich Roll?

  that will help fill in the gaps and serve to help you better understand, you know, what this issue is all about, what we can do about it, and what work remains to be done. So that's it. Thank you for sharing the show with your friends and on social media. I appreciate everybody who has left a review. Please take a moment to do that on iTunes. If you haven't done so already, click that subscribe button. Again, don't forget to use the Amazon Danner app for your holiday purchases, richroll.com/Amazon. And of course, Patreon for those that want to support us financially, the work that we do. Thank you very much. If you'd like to get a short weekly email from me, you can do that. It's called Roll Call. It comes out every

• 1:31:24Rich Roll?

  Thursday morning and basically it's just a list of four or five things that are interesting to me throughout the week, articles I've read, books I'm reading, documentaries I've seen, no spam, nothing like that. I'm not gonna inundate your inbox. It's just a fun weekly thing. So you can subscribe to that on my website. And also, if you're looking for a unique gift, we have some cool stuff on our site, richroll.com. We've got signed copies of Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way. We will personalize that inscription for you. We've got t-shirts, we've got tech tees, we've got baseball hats and beanies and other kinds of cool merch. Big love to my team, everybody who has helped put on

• 1:32:05Rich Roll?

  this show today. Jason Camiola for audio engineering and production, Sean Patterson for graphics, Chris Swan for production assistance and for help with the weekly show notes, and theme music by Anna Lima. Appreciate you guys. I love you guys. I hope you're holding up and doing well. With that said, keep meditating, keep loving. See you guys back here in a couple days. Peace. Plants.