Product lessons from Waymo | Shweta Shrivastava (Waymo, Amazon, Cisco)

Shweta Shrivastava is a Senior Product Leader at Waymo, an autonomous driving technology company backed by Alphabet. Prior to joining Waymo, she was the CPO of Nauto, where she also worked on AI-assisted driver tools. Shweta has worked in product for over 15 years in senior roles at several companies, including Amazon and Cisco. In today’s episode, we discuss: • How Waymo builds trust with riders • Product management at Waymo vs software-only products • The state of self-driving technology • The importance of being a disruptor and why large companies need to disrupt more • Underrated product management skills — Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Public—Invest in stocks, treasuries, crypto, and more | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/product-lessons-from-waymo-shweta-shrivastava-waymo-amazon-cisco/#transcript Where to find Shweta Shriva • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shshrivastava/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Shweta’s background (03:47) What Shweta and her team are responsible for at Waymo (05:30) About the autonomous driving vehicle hardware, software, and simulation tools (08:14) Differences in working at Waymo vs. a more traditional software company (11:02) How Waymo builds trust with riders and the difference between driver assist and fully autonomous (13:57) An example of how Waymo builds trust with riders (15:55) The commercial, operational, and system behavior metrics Waymo uses (20:38) What are L5 autonomous vehicles and why Shweta thinks L4 vehicles are good enough (22:53) How to keep investors enthusiastic when it’s a long-term investment (25:24) Building successful teams and successful products (26:39) Determining what you’re not building, especially before product-market-fit (27:49) Why large companies need to disrupt their own models (29:33) The most underrated product management skills (33:07) Tips for getting promoted (35:19) Where is Waymo and how to try it out (36:46) Lightning round Referenced: • Waymo: https://waymo.com/ • Nauto: https://www.nauto.com/ • Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250267595 • Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986 • The Innovator's Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780 • Top Gun: Maverick on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Top-Gun-Maverick-Tom-Cruise/dp/B0B18G8R9B Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Are you practically trying to challenge your own assumptions is extremely important, right? As a beginner product manager, as well as a seasoned product leader, if you're not doing enough of that, then I think you might not be listening. If there's no conflict, if there's no contention, then something is missing.

• 0:20Lenny Rachitsky?

  Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products. Today, my guest is Schweta Srivastava. Schweta is Senior Director of Product Management at Waymo, which if you're not familiar with Waymo, they are building self-driving cars that are already live on the streets in San Francisco, LA, and Phoenix. Actually, got to take a ride in one ahead of this chat, and you'll hear all about that in this episode. Before joining Waymo, Schweta was Chief Product Officer at Nalto, an AI startup focusing on driver automation safety. Before that, she was Head of Product Management at Amazon Web Services for their database and analytics services. And before that, she was at Cisco. In our conversation, we delve into what it's like to work as a PM at Waymo,

• 1:05Lenny Rachitsky?

  and how it's both different and similar to software-only products. We talk about their KPIs and goals at Waymo, including how they track progress towards a future of self-driving cars, how they build subtle cues and behaviors into the cars to create trust for the rider and also for other cars on the road. Plus, Schweta's biggest lessons about building products and teams across the many companies she's worked at. I can't wait for a future of every car being self-driving, and it was super fun to learn about what goes into making this all happen. With that, I bring you Schweta Srivastava after a short word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth. Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Com, Quora,

• 1:49Lenny Rachitsky?

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• 2:28Lenny Rachitsky?

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• 2:38Lenny Rachitsky?

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• 3:23Lenny Rachitsky?

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• 3:47Lenny Rachitsky?

  Shweta, welcome to the podcast.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Thank you. Great to be here.

• 3:52Lenny Rachitsky?

  It's great to have you. I thought we'd start with just a little bit about what it is you do at Waymo today. What are you and your teams responsible for at Waymo?

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Yes, my team's responsible for three key areas, I would say. One is building a big part of the software that actually runs onboard the fully autonomous vehicle, and that determines the actual behavior and trajectory of the vehicle. Secondly, building the simulation tools and technologies that are required to validate the performance of the system. And then a third one of the teams focused on commercially scaling our ride handling business, which is one of our key go to market applications for the technology we're building.

• 4:33Lenny Rachitsky?

  So as you know, you arranged a ride for me on in a Waymo in San Francisco. She was actually a really rainy day and it was quite mind blowing. I've never been in a self-driving car that had no driver sitting in the front. Like I have a Tesla and I turn on self-driving sometimes, but I've never experienced just sit in the back and this thing just rides you around. Also, just like a memory I had is like the app to call the Waymo is like, it feels like Google Maps, except instead of just telling you how to get to a place, like a car shows up and just takes you there. And then you could change course as you're driving and it's a, it's crazy how quickly it became normal. I'm just like, all right, we're just riding around San Francisco in a self-driving car and just sitting in the back and telling it where to go. And so, so anyway, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions around this, but again,

• 5:18Lenny Rachitsky?

  thank you for arranging that ride. That was quite special.

• 5:21Speaker 00

  No, I, I'm glad that you were able to do that and on a rainy day. So that's a special bonus because again, you know, the, the technology has been performing very well, which has been very hard for us to see. So.

• 5:30Lenny Rachitsky?

  Few questions along these lines. One thing that I noticed that was really cool is we're trying to turn into a lane and there's cars coming in that lane, just like continuing to move. And the car just kind of like subtly was like inching its way out, communicating through this like interesting body language thing of just like, hey, I want to, can someone let me in? And it's interesting, there's no eye contact involved and it's just like this, I don't know, gesture that you all have to develop. And so I guess the question here is just like, what, what have you all learned and what, I don't know if you even worked on that piece of it, but just I'm curious how you think about creating this like body language of the car communication system to help people understand what it's trying to do.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  We're using a lot of human driving data to train our deep learning models. So it's important to make sure that the behavior of the car doesn't seem robotic. Right, it can feel quite unnatural. And you know, from the get go, we focused on building a fully autonomous system. So it's important to have that familiarity, that trust. Uh, you know, building with the riders where they they're not daunted by technology. They don't feel like they're sitting in a row walk, right? It has to feel very human-like, but in a good way, right? Making making making it safer than human driving, but then not making it feel unnatural. And so we have, uh, you know, deep learning models that can understand what the other road user's intent is. So stuff like, you know, which way the pedestrian is looking, right?

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Or what is their body orientation? Because that could tell you, you know, what which way they're headed. The the road signs or the gestures, right? Somebody is trying to stop the the vehicle. The the system can understand all those signals. So because we're using, uh, deep learning models, uh, trained on human driving. But again, sort of, uh, i- in a good way, right? We discard the bad human driving data. Uh, we can mimic human driving behavior in a good way. And that's why you saw the behavior that you saw yesterday. Now, one thing to note is, uh, we can't also just completely rely on explicit gestures and signs, right? Because a lot of driving is also social norms, right?

• 7:33Speaker 00

  It's, uh, if you if you're in a particular intersection in San Francisco, you know, maybe it's okay for pedestrians to cross even when they don't have a walk sign, right? Another city, another intersection might have a different social norm when it comes to pedestrians crossing the the four-way stop sign or the crosswalk or what have you.

• 7:50Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  And so the car also has to learn about those social norms and be able to react to it. So it's it's it's, uh, like I said, you know, it's, uh, we don't realize how sophisticated, how interactive uh, and how social driving really is. And with our artificial intelligence capabilities, you know, we've been able to, uh, incorporate a lot of that into our, uh, system behavior.

• 8:14Lenny Rachitsky?

  So before Waymo, you worked at non-self-driving, uh, software companies, worked at Amazon, Cisco, a few other companies. I'm curious what you've found to be the biggest difference working in a company like Waymo versus a traditional software company.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  As I said earlier, you know, it's a highly complex. Uh technically complex system that we have built and and and we're improving. And and it's it's if I may say so, it's the most game changing product that anybody would ever work on.

• 8:43Lenny Rachitsky?

  I don't know, Amazon's pretty cool, but I I I totally get you.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I worked at Amazon, I'm a fan, right? Um, and they have been pretty transformational with AWS and and on the e-commerce site. But a fully autonomous driving system, you know, you it's it's it's also a very, very hard problem, right? So it it's it's transformational from that perspective, too. I would say that uh the PMs here have to go, have to be able to go technically deep. Uh, you know, compared to what um the what they would do in a in other, you know, software products. Uh, they have to be able to get into the details as much as needed. They have to be okay with uncertainty and ambiguity. Again, you know, I think that is part and parcel of any product management role, but it's it's even more so here, right?

• 9:30Speaker 00

  This is a long game, and so you have to have the tenacity to play the long game and and be continuously improving the product and and make this thing a broad reality, right? Uh, in future. So those are some of the attributes. I would also say that um there is some some level of self-selection here. You know, you have to be driven by the mission to make the road safer, right? Uh, we have about one point three five million deaths that happen every year across the world from traffic accidents, and most of that is attributable to driving errors and driver distraction, right? And I'm sure I've been guilty of, you know, being on on checking my text messages while driving. I've I've seen other drivers do that, right? With a fully autonomous uh technology, you know, you don't have that risk.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  That's the risk we're trying to minimize. So they have to be driven by that mission. One other thing is that the concept of MVP, right? Which is so widely popular in the SaaS product management world or product management world in general, has a whole new meaning here at Bibo when you work in a product like this. Because um safety is is, you know, on top of mind for all of us, right? And we can't really cut corners on safety. There's no, you know, uh, there's there is the MVP bar itself for safety is extremely high for us. Right? So.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  The core product management philosophy of getting an MVP out there and then iterating with the real world deployment, it applies, but it's just a different, it's a different bar on that MVP.

• 11:03Lenny Rachitsky?

  Touching again on safety and like human behavior, I was thinking a little bit as you were chatting about, I have a Tesla which has self-driving car, self-driving capabilities. And intellectually, I know it's probably going to drive a lot better than I am, but I still feel like I need to like disengage it occasionally when I'm like on a curvy road. I'm just like, I don't know about this. I don't want to like leave room for error if there's something that weird that happens. And I imagine someone designing product for that weird behavior where like, I should probably trust it because that's probably a lot better driver than I am, but I don't know. I feel like I can do a better job. Is there anything you've learned about, I don't know, human behavior or how to design software for these sorts of experiences that maybe surprised you or is that, or that was really

• 11:48Lenny Rachitsky?

  interesting or that was really important?

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Since you mentioned Tesla, you know, I just want to clarify that it's a different system that we're building, right? Which is for way more, we started by solving the problem of fully autonomous driving without a human driver at the wheel from the get-go, right? It's not a driver assist or ADAS system, which relies on the human driver taking over when there's a complex situation, right? So I think that expectation is built into that kind of a product, right? And, and so the human, you know, the folks who are using that product would also have that mindset that, hey, I should be ready to take over when the situation demands. Because we built the system from the get-go to, to work in

• 12:34Speaker 00

  a fully autonomous mode without a human driver intervention, right, at the wheel, we had to integrate this into our design philosophy from the very beginning, that this has to feel.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Credible, predictable, and the writers have to be able to trust the system, right? So that has been the core of the design philosophy. And so what happens is, and I heard this from you as well, which resonated with me. And I've heard this from a lot of our writers that they feel, you know, it's like for the first five minutes of the ride, it's wow, you know, is this thing really happening, right? But then it starts to feel very natural.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  And, and you know, as if this is how it was always meant to be, right? After the first one, that's like, uh, uneventful. That's exactly how it's supposed to feel, but it's not a happenstance that it feels that way. You know, the, the, the naturalness, the smoothness, uh, and, and still sort of, you know, adhering to safety at all times are things that are designed into the system. And then we make sure that the writer has visibility into what's happening. The, if they're not wearing the seatbelt, the rider support would call them, right? So then they know, okay, there is a human, uh, that they can reach out to if they, if they have an issue, they can look at monitor in the, in the car, right? To understand what the car is seeing. So I think all these little things, uh, help develop that trust in the system.

• 13:57Lenny Rachitsky?

  On that same note, what's one thing that you've, your teams have built that creates a lot of trust? Or maybe it was a surprisingly important element in creating trust in the experience? Like in terms of the product especially, and I don't know, either the app or the in, in, uh, in car experience?

• 14:14Speaker 00

  I don't know if I can point to one thing, you know, it is, uh, again, it's, this is such a holistic experience. This then, uh, I think it has to be a bunch of small things to make it feel, you know, natural, transparent and trustworthy to the writers. And I, I can give you one example that I don't think I've mentioned in, in the discussion so far. So again, because the, the system is designed to be, you know, cautious and defensive, but still making, you know, adequate progress in the absence of traffic, right? It will never go above the speed limit. Right? It doesn't go above the speed limit. It, it sticks or adheres to the speed limit. It was something that a lot of our writers actually appreciate about the system. Now it turns out that.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  Adhering to the speed limit, even without traffic, uh, sometimes is is not the best thing. You have to go below the speed limit and we we realize that for driving in the in sort of the slopes or the the gradients, uh, you know, the street with inclines in in San Francisco, there are many of those, right? The human brain is trained to, or the human drivers are sort of, you know, subconsciously, they slow down when they go downhill.

• 15:22Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  On those slopes, right? The autonomous vehicle doesn't necessarily have to do that, right, if it's safe? And if it's staying below the speed limit, but but we learned that this is the this is the this is a more natural driving experience, right? And this is what our riders would also expect in terms of the experience. So, uh, that's something that that we, uh, then, you know, modify the behavior on.

• 15:45Lenny Rachitsky?

  That makes sense. I would I would want it to slow down. On the other hand, if I feel like I could trust it, I could, I wish there was a button to just like crazy mode, just go, go for it. Kind of digging a little bit into the product teams way of working. What are KPIs that you all use to track progress? I don't know, either amongst some of the teams you lead or also just broadly progress on self-driving technology? How do you know you're making progress? Is it just like miles driven or something else?

• 16:12Speaker 00

  There are tons of these metrics, right, that we, um, analyze on on sort of a daily basis, weekly basis, depending upon what what the metric is. But if I were to categorize them sort of two broad categories, that'd be the commercial and operational metrics and the system behavior metrics, right? Uh, so it's one thing, one important thing to note here is that it's not, this is, we're not in a proof of concept or a pilot phase anymore, right? This is the service that we are offering to riders, uh, you know, paid service in Phoenix and, uh, uh, also it's open to public in San Francisco, right? So it's an actual service and so we're tracking, you know, the the the commercial metrics in terms of the trips per week, right?

• 16:52Speaker 00

  The the daily or or weekly active users and all the funnel metrics that you can think of. Also, the operational metrics, right? The cost, right? Well, how much is this thing costing us to operate? So that's, I would say, all the stuff on the the on the commercial scaling side. And then on the on the driver performance, the driver, Veevo driver is the is the technology name as as I alluded to earlier. The driver performance metrics, you know, they span across, uh, safety.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  The, you know, compliance to the road rules, uh, our ability to make adequate progress as in, you know, not get unduly stopped or stranded in dense traffic situations as an example.

• 17:32Lenny Rachitsky?

  What are just like specific metrics there? Like anything you could share? Just like, what is the actual goal on one of those teams?

• 17:38Speaker 00

  The goal here is to be able to drive safer than, uh, than humans, right? Now, it's, we don't really have one standard human driving benchmark, right? Safety benchmark that, um, everybody uses, right? But we do gather, um, enough of that data, right? We have access to enough of that data to, uh, form an opinion on or a metric on or benchmark on. Uh, what does human driving look like? You know, how many collisions as an example? Uh, human driver would have every hundred thousand mile, right? And then we want to make sure that our performance is better than that, right? So that's, I'm simplifying, right?

• 18:21Speaker 00

  And, and several things go into sort of both calculating the benchmark as well as our performance against that benchmark. But that at the core of it, you know, that's what we're trying to do. So that's on the safety side. And then I would say on the, uh, eh, the stops and strandings, which is trying to, you know, which goes in the different direction. Hey, you can be very safe if you're not moving at all. That's not what we're believing, right? We, we need to make sure that the riders get to their destination on time. So it has to be making, it has to be appropriately assertive and be making the right progress. And so, again, how, how much did the vehicle slow down unduly, right?

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Or in how many instances in a given week, uh, did it have to rely on sort of a rescue help, right? Those are the situations that we want to avoid. And then what, how much did we slow down the traffic for other users, right? So we again do extensive benchmarking and, uh, look at the priors, et cetera, and, and really understand what would an adequate performance be there and measure our own, uh, against that.

• 19:27Lenny Rachitsky?

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• 20:11Lenny Rachitsky?

  You can try Element totally risk-free. If you don't like it, you can share it with a salty friend and they'll give you your money back, no questions asked. To give it a shot, go to drinklmnt.com/lenny and you'll get a free sample pack with any purchase, which includes one packet of every flavor. My favorite is watermelon salt. You won't find this offer publicly available, so you have to head to drinklmnt.com/lenny to take advantage of this offer. Stay salty. I'm guessing you're not gonna have an answer to when do we think we'll have fully self-driving Level 5 autonomy? So, uh, let me ask you a different approach to that question of just what's getting, what's most in the way of us getting to full self-driving where we don't have to do anything ever? Is it like miles driven? Is it like tech breakthroughs that still have to happen?

• 20:55Lenny Rachitsky?

  Is it regulation and just cities being like, okay, it's fine? What's the biggest blocker at this point or bottleneck?

• 21:01Speaker 00

  So, then let me share my opinion on the L5. So, I think, so L4 for, you know, for those who might not be very familiar with this term, you know, N2, L3 is still very much driver-assisted. You know, there is, gets to some level of autonomy, but then relies on the human driver at the wheel to be able to take over in complex situations. L4 is fully autonomous without a human driver at the wheel and no expectation of a human driver at the wheel. That's what we've been focusing on. L5 would be in any kind of road, right? Completely unstructured, off-roading, uh, in that kind of an environment, be able to drive without.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  You know, without any map, without any priors, what have you? And we believe that, you know, by offering the kind of service that we are offering in Phoenix and San Francisco, and then, you know, LA through the rest of this year and other cities in the future is, it helps realize that um the the dream of the fully autonomous driving in a big way, right? Without having to go to L five. So I think that in the technology is already there. You know, L five, I'm not sure, you know, maybe that becomes more niche, etc. It solves very specific use cases. In terms of the blocker, I would say the technology is there, but it still needs improvement, especially, you know, we were not able to drive in snow yet, right? Some that we have to tackle in future.

• 22:25Lenny Rachitsky?

  I could barely drive in slow.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  I get that. That, yeah, and I I don't like to drive in snow, even Tappo, I avoid on very snowy days. But yeah, you know, that is something that we still have to build as a capability in driving through in snow. Fine now, so so that's great.

• 22:39Lenny Rachitsky?

  Makes sense. Clearly, there's a lot, a lot of little things, a lot of little things, a lot of big things. And it's a really interesting point about like, we don't need all five, all fours. Great for most people. Maybe a last question along this track, and then I want to pivot to a different area. So Waymo has been this long term investment for Alphabet, and many PMs often try to create buy in and keep buy in for a large investment, a large project. I know this is like a different scale of investment than what most PMs work through, but is there anything you've learned about keeping leaders bought in and excited and continuing to invest in a project uh for years and years? And specifically, just like tactics that keep people excited and bought into a long term investment?

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, so first of all, we are fortunate that we have, you know, uh backing from Alphabet and and other investors. And um, you know, the autonomous vehicle industry is interesting, and I think the last year has been interesting with more consolidation happening, right? So I think the name of the game here is to uh is is to show progress, right? Show meaningful progress and meaningful progress, not just in terms of. Technology, but in terms of commercial deployments, right? That is, that is the, the rubber meets the road, if you will, phase of, of the, of the product. And the results have to speak for themselves, for our investors to have the confidence in us, right? So notwithstanding, uh, you know, what's happening to other AV companies in the, uh, in the industry, you know?

• 24:05Speaker 00

  It's, it's about what we are doing and they look at the progress that we've been making and where we are headed. And the fact that we've been sort of, um, accelerating our milestones and blowing through our own expectations. I think these are very positive, uh, signals to our investors as well. And we're, you know, another startup as well. It's not about, you have to do what's the right thing for the business, right? That's what you, your focus is on creating value for the customers, creating value for the writers, right? You, you have to build a business that makes sense and you know, and the investors see that too, right? Or we're not going to do something unnatural or, uh, something that, you know, doesn't align with the business goals in order to gain any short-term brownie points with investors.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  I think it doesn't work that way and investors will see through that too. Uh, definitely Alphabet, you know, uh, has been our backer for, uh, forever, right? So it's, it's really about focusing on doing the, building the right business and doing the right thing for the, for the users.

• 25:03Lenny Rachitsky?

  I think that's a great takeaway that if you're finding that there isn't buy-in and continued support for what you're building, uh, focus on momentum and showing success. Like it's pretty simple if you think about it and, uh, it's hard to cut something that's just like showing success.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:17Lenny Rachitsky?

  And, uh, and so even at the scale of Waymo, it's, uh, it's a great lesson. So that makes sense. We talked a bit about other companies you've worked at and so I want to kind of zoom out a little bit. And I just want to ask, you worked at Amazon, Cisco, Waymo now, startup you mentioned. What are just some of the biggest lessons you've learned about successfully, of building successful teams and successful products?

• 25:39Speaker 00

  In terms of the product, whether you're working for, you know, a big company or a startup, the, the core product management tenant is still the same, which is, you know, you have to work backwards from the customer problem or the user problem, right? Uh, building a technology for the sake of it, uh, is, you know, doesn't really go that far, right? And so you really have to focus on the, what are you building? Who are you building it for and what problem are you solving? Right, and that this applies in any context, right? And Amazon has this great process where the PMs have to write a press release for the finished product, even before they start building the product, right? That's the thing, that's the first thing that they have to do is to write that press release,

• 26:22Speaker 00

  like the product's about to launch today, right? What are you telling the users about that product? Really forces them to think about the value proposition more thoroughly, right? And I know many other companies are starting to sort of look at that practice as well, but I found it very effective.

• 26:38Lenny Rachitsky?

  Do you do that, do you do that way, Mo, or do your folks do that? Is there kind of a system there?

• 26:42Speaker 00

  The explicit PR FAQ process that Amazon follows is, you know, I think Vimo has its own version of it. But it is about sort of focusing on the, on the customer problem. Now, Vimo is also a very different kind of product, right? It's highly integrated. So, and different types of product management flavors, if you will, right? Some are more technically focused and technically deep, some more commercially focused. So they all adapt. They have their versions of working backwards from the customer problem. But that, that still remains the core tenet in my mind. The other, you know, big lessons, at least working in, so the large companies that I have had is, it's also very important to know what you're not building, right?

• 27:25Speaker 00

  And this one, as long as big companies, I would say even in startup, it's extremely important to know, you know, what you're not building, because you could very easily get swayed by customer X telling you to do this, customer Y telling you to do that, and a product that tries to be all things to all people, you know, usually doesn't end up going anywhere. So that focus, that prioritization and being crisp about what you're building and what you're not building is, is very important. And then in the context of the large companies, what I was going to say was, you know, I think it's the, is the classic innovator's dilemma, right? The large companies tend to be the market share leaders in, in their focus areas. And so the product team and the product leaders can get very incremental in their product strategy.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  And, and then low and behold, you know, you can see an upstart that comes and disrupts them, right? And, and so I have definitely learned the lesson that you need to disrupt yourself before somebody else does. Right, because it's going to happen, it's inevitable. And large companies that are constantly sort of, you know, challenging themselves and disrupting their. Their own models, right, or their own product capabilities to bring something more transformational for the customers are the ones that really succeed. And I think this is where the product leaders have to bring in that mindset of, hey, you know, are we getting too complacent or it's time to.

• 28:45Lenny Rachitsky?

  That's such a good reminder. Is there an example of you doing that or something you worked on where you had, where you got the company to commit to something that maybe could have been a threat from a disruptor, or maybe even just seeing that happening at a company? Just like, is there a specific project or investment that comes to mind?

• 29:02Speaker 00

  At Amazon, I launched, or I was the first PM, and then I brought the team around it for a no-code application development platform called Honeycode, right? So that was a brand new service. Amazon had never delved in that space before. It was more sort of more infrastructure focused. And, you know, this was sort of a first of its kind service that the team worked on. So this has played out many times in my career. And so I am a big believer in disrupting yourself before somebody else does it.

• 29:33Lenny Rachitsky?

  What do you think is the most underrated PM skill that you suggest people, maybe especially early in their career, that they should focus on, maybe that they're probably not thinking about?

• 29:42Speaker 00

  I think the listening and empathy are the top ones. These are very important. I think when folks think about product management, you know, think about sort of the influencing without authority and prioritization and being able to write the PRs, et cetera, right? All those things are sort of more top of mind. The listening and empathy, I wouldn't say that they are underrated. I think there is, there is now a lot more recognition that these are sort of core skills if you want to be able to influence a lot without authority. But I, but I think it's easier said than done. You know, you really have to come in with that growth mindset, that, you know, with that beginner's mindset, be able to absorb and just learn and listen and don't jump in with ideas necessarily, right?

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Take the time to formulate that opinion, to really learn and understand the customer and the market, and really be true to that tenet of working backwards from the customer problem, not just, you know, say because it's it's become such a platitude now in the in the product world.

• 30:43Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah, there's a book, there's a whole book called Working Backwards Now.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  That, yes, that is the one thing that I would say that that somebody uh was starting out as a product manager, you know, really try to follow that principle and then listening and empathy is gonna go a long way in terms of being able to be that.

• 31:01Lenny Rachitsky?

  On listening and empathy, what do you think helped you most develop those two skills?

• 31:06Speaker 00

  So I I think for me, part of it was just doing this over and over again in different environments, right? In different product launches that I've led in different uh types of companies that I've worked with. In startup as well as big company, right? The dynamic is different, right? And and again, the um you know, the the team that you're working with in different companies have different cultures. Uh, so then you're working with, let's say, an engineering leader, uh, you know, being able to understand what are his or her constraints, right? Where is he or she coming from? What? What does impact look like to that person? And then understanding and then understanding where you're aligned, where you're not aligned,

• 31:51Speaker 00

  are things that you have to develop and start paying a lot more attention to as you sort of rise in your career or or go up the ladder. Uh, and I think a lot of that for me came um came by just being in different kind of situations and different kind of environments.

• 32:08Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah, that's what I often say also, like, a lot of this just comes from doing it again and again and again. There's not gonna take a course and then just I'm I'm a great listener, I'm done.

• 32:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:17Lenny Rachitsky?

  It's a

• 32:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:19Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah, which is not easy to like, you know, it'd be nice if there was a book you read and then you become a great listener and create

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Well, I think one one take take or one one that I could

• 32:28Lenny Rachitsky?

  Hmm.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  You know, share is Is is just challenging your own assumptions, right? So so I think listening with an open mind, but then, you know, are you proactively trying to challenge your own assumptions? Uh, it's extremely important, right? A as a beginner product manager, as well as a seasoned product leader, you have, if you're not doing enough of that, then I think you might not be listening well, right? Or you might not be picking on sort of the the the cues. Then you're just, if if there's no conflict, if there's no contention, then uh, something is missing.

• 33:03Lenny Rachitsky?

  It's not often you're gonna be always right.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:05Lenny Rachitsky?

  Maybe one more question along these lines. You've been promoted many times. Now you're in a place where you promote people. And I'm curious, for someone that maybe wants to get promoted or struggling to get promoted, what would you say are probably the reasons they aren't? Or what do you think people should focus on if they want to just get a promotion and many promotions in their career?

• 33:28Speaker 00

  I'm gonna say something that might sound a little cheeky, right? But I I think the way to get promoted is to not want it too badly. Right? It it is about, you have to focus on on sort of the the impact, right? It is, it's about having an impact and then doing what is right for the business. So so not sort of, you know, optimizing things for your promotion, right? But look, we are all ambitious human beings and and it's, there's nothing wrong with wanting a promotion, just to be fair, right? And there's nothing wrong with being ambitious, but but then focus on the impact, right? Are you working on the right things that will have the right outcome for the business? Because if you are, and if you are giving it to your one hundred percent, that will be visible, right?

• 34:11Speaker 00

  And and making your ambitions known to your to your manager, to your leader, is is is a good thing, right? That you should. And and so when the right opportunity comes, you know, at least your leader or manager is aware that. You know, this person wanted to work on something more challenging. So maybe I I put put her and, you know, on that project. But you have to be focused on sort of really creating the right company impact for the company and not optimizing for yourself to get promoted. If you try to maneuver that too much, A, you know, it becomes visible, right? And it's it's not necessarily, um, it's it's not a positive signal to the organization when they can see that that's what you're trying to do. And it also distracts you from the things that you need to be focusing on. So

• 34:55Speaker 00

  I would say, you know, we, yeah, improve your skill set as a product manager. Make sure that you're that you've made your vision that you want to work on challenging, high visibility projects or products, right, that really test or stretch your skills. And and then be really dedicated to that cause and and and work on what has a business impact for for the company, right? Do the right things.

• 35:16Lenny Rachitsky?

  I really like that advice. One hundred percent agree with all of that. I have a couple final way more questions and then we're going to get to a very exciting lightning round.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:24Lenny Rachitsky?

  Uh, just to kind of for folks that maybe want to try out way more. Um, so maybe just like, where's it live now? When do you think it'll roll out to new cities? And then how do people try it and use it if if they live in one of those cities, if that's possible?

• 35:37Speaker 00

  We are already in Phoenix metro area and um in San Francisco. So in those cities, you can just go and download the app and you can use the service. We have done initial uh fully autonomous testing in LA and we're going to be expanding in LA through the rest of the year. So stay tuned for more development on that front. Uh, and then we do have a list of cities that we're going to be rolling out in the coming years, but unfortunately I can't share that list just as yet.

• 36:04Lenny Rachitsky?

  And if someone lives in one of those cities, is there a way they could try to get on a waitlist or try to use the stuff? Or is it? Is it like closed doors right now?

• 36:11Speaker 00

  So it is open doors in in San Francisco and Phoenix.

• 36:14Lenny Rachitsky?

  Got it. So you just sign up and you get on a waitlist and then you might get off.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  In Phoenix, I don't even think that there is a waitlist.

• 36:20Lenny Rachitsky?

  Oh, wow. You gotta move to Phoenix. That's cool.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  Or or just wait, uh, just, uh, yeah, a little while in San Francisco. But yeah, Phoenix is great. That's why I if you want to move there, that's totally fine.

• 36:33Lenny Rachitsky?

  I'm I'm gonna start packing tonight. Just joking. Uh, anything else you want to touch on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

• 36:40Speaker 00

  No, I think we talked about a bunch of things. It's been that's been a great conversation so far.

• 36:45Lenny Rachitsky?

  It's not over yet. We reached our very exciting lightning round. I have six questions for you. Are you ready?

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Bring it on.

• 36:52Lenny Rachitsky?

  Okay, here we go. What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Crossing the Chasm by Jeffrey Moore and Clayton Christensen's Innovator still in our still sort of the two classics in product management that I have quoted a lot and I have recommended to many folks.

• 37:12Lenny Rachitsky?

  Awesome. I've got both in my little bookshelf behind me.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too.

• 37:15Lenny Rachitsky?

  What's a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

• 37:19Speaker 00

  I have an eight-year-old daughter, so my viewing choices are very much influenced by what she watches.

• 37:25Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Uh, but let's see, I, um, yeah, I did enjoy the Top Gun, the new Top Gun movie, Top Gun Maverick, quite a bit. We watched it in the theater and visuals were just fantastic. I think it was also inspiring to see what Tom Cruise was able to do, you know, and it's quite a feat that he pulled off at this age and, you know, it was very inspirational.

• 37:49Lenny Rachitsky?

  Fully agree. Favorite interview question that you like to ask people?

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, especially at the senior levels, I always ask them, when was one time that you failed? And what did you learn from it? Uh, I've seen that folks are, you know, was either say that they've never failed or they're trying to to guys, uh, success story as a failure story are usually either disingenuous or have not had the depth of experience. So I ask that question and I'm looking for some real solid examples there.

• 38:21Lenny Rachitsky?

  Awesome. What's a favorite recent product that you've discovered that you love?

• 38:27Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say that I recently discovered it. It's on my, um, it's on my wishlist to buy very soon. I look, I'm all for sustainable mobility, so I am shopping for a foldable e-bike. So I can do more mountain biking without doing mountain biking. That's the sustainable part for me, I guess.

• 38:47Lenny Rachitsky?

  Is there a specific model or brand that you are most excited about?

• 38:50Speaker 00

  I would take recommendations from you, but I'm still, I'm still shopping, I think, electric. There are a couple, yeah.

• 38:57Lenny Rachitsky?

  All right, folks have recommendations, leave suggestions in the comments.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  Please do.

• 39:02Lenny Rachitsky?

  And what's something relatively minor you've changed in your team's product development process that you've found has had a tremendous impact?

• 39:09Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say that this is a product development process, you know, although we, in different parts of my career, I have definitely instituted different types of processes and tools that have helped improve the product development, but I would give you some, an interesting one that I used a lot in my, in my prior company, and then I use a different form of them here at BMO is what I, I used to call is the rule of seven. If there have been seven emails in an email thread and you still haven't resolved the issue, just call the person or get in a room, huddle, resolve it, live. But you know, the, the long email exchanges that don't converge and go anywhere, I feel are a waste of time for many people. So I'm like, you know, you've got a limit.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  BMO is a bigger company, so you know, the limit's more like 10, but if you haven't resolved something within an X number of emails, please just get on a call, get in a room and, and get it resolved.

• 40:04Lenny Rachitsky?

  I love that. And the idea is it's seven, if it's like you and that person going back and forth seven times.

• 40:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, or, you know, a couple of people just going back and forth and, and then, you know, and adding more people and then adding more people and they're like, everybody chimes in, but where is this thing really headed?

• 40:21Lenny Rachitsky?

  I love that. Final question, if anyone gets to ride in a Waymo, what's a pro tip for them to have a awesome experience?

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Bring your favorite playlist, sit back and enjoy the ride.

• 40:34Lenny Rachitsky?

  Great. I was, I, when I was on my ride, I turned on some jazz and it was raining outside. It was real cozy.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  But did you actually do it on the, so, so there's a feature, if you have a Google, you have to download the Google Assistant, but you can actually play your playlist in the car.

• 40:49Lenny Rachitsky?

  That's cool. No, I chose like a station that was in there of just like jazz music.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah.

• 40:53Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah, okay, this is great. All right, hopefully I get another ride someday.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  Yes, you should.

• 40:57Lenny Rachitsky?

  Shweta, this was amazing. I'm gonna start packing my bags for Phoenix. I'm gonna sell my car. Everything's gonna change.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  Exactly what we wish for.

• 41:08Lenny Rachitsky?

  There's your KPI. Thank you again for being here. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more? Reach out, ask you maybe some questions, maybe apply to join Waymo if you're hiring. And how can listeners be useful to you?

• 41:20Speaker 00

  You can find me on LinkedIn. And then if you are interested in opportunities at Waymo, go to Waymo Careers webpage. You should see all the open positions. It's okay for you to reach out to me on LinkedIn as well for product management roles. How can listeners be useful to me? I would say, hey, sign up for the ride in Phoenix or San Francisco and LA when we open up. Give us feedback.

• 41:44Lenny Rachitsky?

  Awesome. Shweta, thank you again for being here.

• 41:47Speaker 00

  Thank you. It was great to have this conversation.

• 41:51Lenny Rachitsky?

  Bye, everyone.

• 41:53Lenny Rachitsky?

  Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.