289. Better with Age: Why Joy Matters More Than Longevity

A full life isn’t about the quantity of time, but the quality. Our lifespan might describe how long we live, but it doesn’t say anything about how well we live. For that, Kerry Burnight https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/dr-kerry-burnight/says, we need a different measure: joyspan. Burnight is a gerontologist, former professor of geriatric medicine, and author of Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half http://fastersmarter.io/joyspan/. In her decades working with older adults, she noticed a gap: “I would have a lot of people who lived long lives and were in pretty darn good physical health. They were miserable.” That observation led her to dig into the research on well-being — and to find what it takes to enjoy a long life, not just endure one. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart https://www.fastersmarter.io/, Burnight joins host Matt Abrahams to explore her joyspan framework, explaining how growth, connection, adapting, and giving contribute to a full life. From changing the conversation around aging to communicating more effectively across generations, Burnight offers practical wisdom for living better at any age. Episode Reference Links: Dr. Kerry Burnight https://www.fastersmarter.io/guests/dr-kerry-burnight/Kerry’s Book: Joyspan http://fastersmarter.io/joyspan/Ep.176 From Stereotypes to Synergy: Communicating Across Generations https://www.fastersmarter.io/176-from-stereotypes-to-synergy-communicating-across-generations/ Connect: Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart Premium https://www.fastersmarter.io/premium/Email Questions & Feedback >>> [email protected] Transcripts >>>Think Fast Talk Smart Website https://www.fastersmarter.io/289-better-with-age/Newsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>>FasterSmarter.io http://fastersmarter.io/Think Fast Talk Smart >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/think-fast-talk-smart/,Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thinkfasttalksmart/, YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6caGRBUYZCmgDGM2RK6mxKB9jG_ccmm3Matt Abrahams >>>LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maabrahams/ Chapters: (00:00) - Introduction (01:05) - Defining Joyspan (03:12) - The Joyspan Matrix (08:48) - Learning to Adjust (09:42) - The Power of Stories (13:23) - Internalized Ageism (16:25) - The Final Three Questions (21:49) - Conclusion ******** Thank you to our sponsors. These partnerships support the ongoing production of the podcast, allowing us to bring it to you at no cost. Learn more about how Notion https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast can support your business at notion.com/thinkfast. https://www.notion.com/?utm_source=podcasts&utm_medium=thinkfast Join our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community and become the communicator you want to be. https://learning.fastersmarter.io/?redirect_from=podpage

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Matt Abrahams?

  In the moment, conflict is difficult for everyone. In our October newsletter, out now, you will learn ways to help yourself handle these challenges better. Not only do you get specific advice, we're also providing an infographic to help you remember. Find our newsletter on the Think Fast, Talk Smart LinkedIn page or at fastersmarter.io under Resources.

• 0:24Matt Abrahams?

  A truly fulfilling and meaningful life is not just about lifespan, it's about joy span. My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I am really excited to chat with Carrie Burnwright. Carrie is a world-renowned gerontologist and advocate for the elderly, who has spent over 20 years improving the lives of older adults. She is a former professor of geriatric medicine at the University of California Irvine and currently at the University of Chicago. She specializes in using technology and compassionate communication to change how society values and interacts with elders.

• 1:05Matt Abrahams?

  Her latest book is called Joy Span: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half. Welcome, Carrie. Thank you so much for being here. We have friends in common, and I am so thrilled to actually be talking to you in person, not just via text and on the phone.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Well, as a listener of your podcast, I feel especially excited.

• 1:24Matt Abrahams?

  Well, thank you. Shall we get started?

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Please.

• 1:27Matt Abrahams?

  I would love to start with the concept of joy span. What is it, and how is it different from lifespan and health span?

• 1:34Speaker 01

  As a gerontologist, I spent the last 30 years talking about lifespan, how long we live. And it's a good start. But more recently, in the 1980s, we have added the concept of health span, which has been really helpful, because you want to live as healthy as you can for as long as you can, physically and cognitively. The problem was, I would have a lot of people I would work with who lived long lives, and were in pretty darn good physical health, and were miserable. So then the question is, why is it that some people are enjoying these Long lives and some people are suffering so much. So I really dug into the literature on well being, which I know is one of your interests.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  And what I learned was there's so much that we can be doing to impact the quality of our long lives. So joy span is simply how many years you enjoy living. And it's a biggie. And joy is often not clearly defined. So I wanted to start with that because what joy is not is toxic positivity, happy, happy, pretend things aren't hard. Because growing older is hard. There's a lot of challenges. I don't know anybody who escapes all the challenges of growing older. But joy, as defined by the American Psychological Association, is well being and life satisfaction.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  And I love that Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama wrote a book called The Book of Joy, which is such a good book. And they really differentiate between happiness and joy. So happiness being often circumstantial or outside in, whereas joy is more akin to contentment and being able to feel some well being regardless of circumstance. And that's when I knew I had my word joy span because it is the regardless of circumstance that we're after.

• 3:34Matt Abrahams?

  Really interesting. So it's not about the context, it's about the internal perspective. You know, and people who listen and watch know that I love words and a word like joy span is one that's very inviting and makes people curious. And I think that opens them up to learning the many things you have to share. Speaking of sharing, you have created a joy span matrix, which consists of four components: grow, connect, adapt, and give. And in your awesome book, you dedicate a chapter to each. So I know we won't do it justice in just this brief conversation, but can you give us a little bit of an overview of those four components?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I just scoured the literature on well being in longevity. Why, why, why? Some people from the outside have the same health conditions, the same socioeconomic status. The same exercise eating and yet such different experience. And what I found was there were these, they grouped into four elements. And I spent a ridiculous amount of wasted time trying to make a cute acronym. And one day I was just sitting in my coffee shop where I write and I thought, in this occasion, it is just the word that it is. So it is four words that the listeners can take to heart. And they're all verbs because they all take action. They take effort.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  And there is a little way to remember them. And it starts and ends with a G. So there are G's on the outside. And then I, the author, it happened to be from California. So there's C A in the middle. So we're going to start with the G and that first is grow. So what the literature shows us that those people who enjoy their long lives, who age well, are people who are committed to continue to develop themselves. So as younger people, we're all the time saying, Matt, climb up on the diving board. Do this, do that, things you've never done. As we get older, understandably, sometimes we lean out.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  And the reason for it is that we have been programmed through a multi-billion dollar anti-aging industry telling us that it is bad to get old. It is ugly. It is less than you're, you don't have as much to give. And because of that, we then are not leaning in to keep growing. But the reality is there are many things that get better as you get older. And we'll probably get into that later because it's not publicized, because it's not lucrative. So we started with grow, continuing to keep going. Next, we're going to the C, that's connect. So we know from the literature that connection between humans is a non-negotiable, regardless of how introverted you are.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  You can be lonely in a marriage or in a group, or you can be fulfilled, but we require some back and forth.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  And that we simply can't rest on the oars of longtime friendships. Because when you, like my patients, live into your 90s, you outlive your friends, or they move away, or they have cognitive impairment. The sentence I use here is to be that friend who picks up the phone, who remembers it's been two years since your father's passing, who says, "May I drive you to chemo?" Who says, "I'm making a book club. Do you want to join?" You've got to put yourself out there.

• 6:57Matt Abrahams?

  Proactive and persistent.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Then brings us to the third. We've got grow, connect. The A is adapt. So that literature was actually out of a researcher in Israel who found that people who could enjoy their long lives were people who could adapt.

• 7:17Matt Abrahams?

  So not set in your ways.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Not set in your ways, but also recognizing that circumstances are going to come, regardless of all your burpees and green juices and plunges and all the things we're doing, there will be changes, and they're not things you necessarily anticipate. Even things, for example, when I was writing the chapter on adaptation, our 25-year-old daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumor. And it was devastating because I thought, "Well, that can't possibly be..." And then here I'm writing about adapting. It's like, no, that is life. Another word for aging is living. And you're going to have these things come your way that you didn't expect.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  And when they do, not if they do, when they do, how we adjust to those is what predicts how we will experience our long lives, and indeed, how we'll be remembered. So this ability to adapt to these things that you never asked for really matters. And then gets to our final G, and that is give. And so there's a big literature around purpose and contribution. And again, when we recognize all that we have to give as we get older and we reject the notion that we have less to give, we recognize... The world needs what older Matt, older Carrie have to offer.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  For example, as we get older, we have the potential for increased problem solving, increased appreciation of connection, increased and deepening spirituality, appreciation of beauty, humility. I mean, can you imagine if we all step up and lean into our humility, what this would do as a nation? So, society needs us to give what this older version has to offer.

• 9:11Matt Abrahams?

  So, these four together make the joy span matrix. And we can work on each of these components to help us build and appreciate our joy span. I have to ask, is your daughter okay?

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you for asking. So, she was packed up to go to medical school, got this diagnosis. We were all devastated and she wasn't able to then go because she then instead moved home and was on the patient's side instead of on the doctor's side. And as life does, we adapted and she adapted. And so now she has an MRI every six months. She went to a different school that's next to her neurosurgeon. She's gotten used to some of the side effects. So, did we pick it? No. Is it life and there's still so much goodness? Yes. So, thank you. She's doing just fine.

• 10:04Matt Abrahams?

  I'm glad to hear that. And what an example of adapting. And speaking of examples, one of the things that was so touching about your book is with each of those four areas, you not only explain them, but you use a person, a real person, and walk through how they are realizing and actualizing that. And one of the things that brought a smile to my face is you use your own mother, who is in her 90s, as an example as well. As you were writing, I just want to get a little meta about your thought process. Why did you decide to tell personal stories of people to help understand these concepts? Because it really helped me to get it.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yes, people love aspirational examples. And we have that in other parts of our lives. We look ahead to our professors. And yet, we haven't traditionally had as many role models so readily available. But now, happily, with things like social media and a recognition from this beauty industry that there is great beauty in so many of us. And so with my mom, it was such, it's a mutual learning. And so she'll be 97 next month. And she wasn't particularly fitness guru. She didn't eat perfect. She had a cocktail and a dessert most nights.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And she wasn't even on a path that was particularly great. But happily, as I, 30 years ago, would learn things in my studies, I would say, oh, Mom, did you know that something as simple as doing a gratitude journal can statistically change da-da-da? So she started incorporating these things. And now, I'm the one always learning from her because she is the best version of herself right now. She is vital, hilarious, humble, beautiful, radiant. And I, I felt I couldn't keep her to myself. So I started sharing her on social media. And now, millions and millions of people are watching her. And what they always say is, I want to be like her.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  And what I type back is, you can't. It isn't accurate that aging is just something that happens to you. In fact, the research shows us that between 14 and 25% of how you will age is genetic. So the rest, we have something that we can do, both with our physical, what we do, moving these bodies, continuing to learn. But a lot of the emphasis right now is the exterior, the meat bag, the carrying case. And it does matter, but I'd never go to a funeral and have people say, did you know that guy's VO2 max? It was really impressive.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  They say things like, wow, when nobody was looking, he mentored me. He took me to the side and he gave me a shot. A lot of these interior things that end up being the biggies in life.

• 13:06Matt Abrahams?

  Wow, the power of stories to motivate. And I love that you've made your mom a social influencer and that she's embraced it. And how lovely to be able to teach her and have her teach you simultaneously.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Oh, she teaches me so much. So just yesterday, I was at her house and I had the thought, she doesn't complain. And she did, she used to years ago when she was only in her 50s. And so I said, how is it that you don't complain? And I just in one shot, turned my camera on her and she talked about how she just inside her mind says, oh, Betty, knock it off. And so then there have been thousands of people who have laughed, oh, Betty, knock it off.

• 13:45Matt Abrahams?

  Another technique that you use in your writing, which I love because I am a quote collector, you use lots of quotes. And some of my favorite quotes in your work are quotes you had. And one that really stood out to me is, your habits have more power to shape your health than your genes ever will. And you've talked a little bit about the percentages there. But can you give us some insight into whether those habits? And are there habits that we should adopt for mind, body and spirit and connection?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yes. And the step one that I want you to adopt today is how you think about growing older. Because most of us understandably, see it as all decline. And we've been taught that and to think, name something, it's going to go downhill. Well, when you expect that, that is really what happens.

• 14:34Matt Abrahams?

  It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  The problem is, it simply isn't true. So I think in terms of ways that you could make a difference in your own aging is to just today, say, every time I hear my internalized ageism. So I think of it, we all talk about AI, this is IA. For example, you can't find your car for a moment in the parking lot and you think, oh, there it is, I'm losing it. No, you couldn't find your car when you were 23. And so you could replace that thought with, don't be silly, it's not an aging thing. Or when you say to yourself, it's too late. Or I say to myself, for example, I'll be looking at my phone and it will flip around and I'll see like 25,000 chins

• 15:20Speaker 01

  under here. And my first reaction is like, oh, no. And then I think, of course, I'm in my late 50s. That's what next do. It's no personal shame. It's not a tragedy. It's not ugly. It's okay. And it's so liberating to combat our internalized ageism. And nobody's going to do it for us. So a 20 year old is not going to go, aha, growing older is, it needs to come from us, those who are aging. And so, for example, I work with a lot of people in their 80s and 90s, and some younger people think it's such a compliment to say, huh, Matt, you don't even look like you're 85. The thing is, we've already been young.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  The goal is not to stay young. So what we say now is, when people say, you don't look 85, you say, this is what 85 looks like. Or they say, you don't even seem old. I want to lean into it, because that's how we're going to revolutionize and change aging. It's a new longevity. It's a new way to maximize all 100 years.

• 16:25Matt Abrahams?

  I really like that approach. And I appreciate the specifics there, because I find myself saying some very similar things.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  We all do. I do too. And there's no way we couldn't, because ever since you were a little boy, they read you a story and said, Hansel and Gretel went out and this old witch with a long nose was going to eat them. And that was our introduction to old.

• 16:47Matt Abrahams?

  My mother is in her late 80s. And I'll say, hey, you're doing great for somebody in your 80s. And she hates that last part. And it reminds me to stop saying it. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. Their support covers the cost of production, so we can bring you this show for free. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. The best communicators don't just get their message across, they make it easy for people to know what to do next. Your website can do the same thing. With Squarespace, you can build a polished online presence that clearly shows people who you are, what you offer, and how they can work with you. If you offer coaching, consulting, classes, or other services, Squarespace lets you showcase those offerings,

• 17:30Matt Abrahams?

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• 18:03Matt Abrahams?

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• 18:48Matt Abrahams?

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• 19:04Matt Abrahams?

  Kara, I knew this was going to be a great conversation. It certainly has been. I'd like to end with three questions. As you know, as a listener, the first one I'm going to make up just for you. The other two I ask everybody. You up for that?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:14Matt Abrahams?

  Excellent. I'm really curious. As somebody who's studied joy and joy span, what is the one thing that you have found in your own life that has really made a difference in your experience of joy? And do you think is setting you on the path to having a healthy, long joy span?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  If I had to summarize it in one word, it would be choice. That we have a choice in how we live and experience these long lives. Even if we lose our vision, even if we are confined to bed, even if when our partners pass away, we have a choice in how we respond to those. So that's like Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, where he says, "The one thing that we have..." Here, he was in a concentration camp. And he said, "We can choose that spiritual freedom of how we respond." I just, I find that so comforting.

• 20:10Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for that. It's very empowering. And I appreciate you choosing choice as your answer. Question number two. Who's a communicator that you admire and why?

• 20:19Speaker 01

  I am a big fan these days of Helen Mirren, who is an actress who is leaning into being beautiful and radiant and strong and irreverent in her 80s. And when people say, "You're young." She'll say, "No, I'm not. And I don't want to be. I've been young. I'm old." And to use those words to take back that it can be absolutely... It's our definition of what it means. And that it's not... And if somebody says, "You look old," that is not an insult. Or you don't have to take it as such. And it's not a compliment to say, "You look good for your age." You could just, "You look good." And who cares you and how you look?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  But I, when Helen Mirren speaks, I listen.

• 21:09Matt Abrahams?

  Absolutely. Not only is she a phenomenal actress, she's got a wonderful resonant voice. And I love that she is adopting, what you said, choice. She's making choices to really lean into her age and her profession.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  And she's changing it for people who come behind us. And that's something that we can do for our children is that we can change. I'm seeing it in my lifetime because in the beginning, when I, 30 years ago, it was people sitting in wheelchairs in the hall, slumped all the way over with loud TVs blaring nonsense. And it's not, we're changing that. And so within our lifetimes, we're changing and how great we can set it up for our kids and grandkids.

• 21:50Matt Abrahams?

  Absolutely, absolutely. My wife and I are making conscious choices to help make sure our kids see their grandparents aging, but also our aging, so they can see what that's like and the choices they can make. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Okay, could I change it to do a successful communication recipe when you're working with older adults?

• 22:14Matt Abrahams?

  You may do that, absolutely. Again, making a bold choice, but yes, please.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  So the first is listen. Close your mouth for a minute and slow down and listen. The second is particularly if, like me, you have a higher voice, to lower your voice. We lose hearing in our higher register. So what happens is I'm talking to somebody and to make it louder, I come higher, then they really can't hear me. Go a little bit lower down here. And so I do this with my patients. So it's great to see you today, Mrs. Jones. How are you? I don't have to go louder, I can just go lower. And then the third component is to always be eye level

• 23:04Speaker 01

  with people who are older because the thing of standing up above and leaning over down to somebody's chair or wheelchair, it doesn't set up the right vibe. So if you can, just to get to face to face. And then we can hear better, we can relapse, we can connect better face to face.

• 23:25Matt Abrahams?

  The three Ls, I love it. Listen, lower your voice, and get to that level. And I think that's advice that transcends any communication. I really like that idea of lowering your voice, being conscious of not just what I'm saying, but how I say it can really help somebody.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yes, my husband has a very deep voice and occasionally I can't get to the place I need to, and so I'll just quietly say to him, and then he says the same thing, and the person can understand completely.

• 23:57Matt Abrahams?

  Carrie, this has been fantastic. Not only have you taught us tips and tools that we can use when working with people who are older, but you've also shared with us things we can do to increase our joy span and really make the best of the lives that we have. And the communication advice transcends age. It's all about just how to connect and be present. Thank you so much.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 24:19Matt Abrahams?

  Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about aging and communication, please listen to episode 176 with Bob McCann. Because Carrie provided so many useful tips, tools, and techniques, we created a Quick Thanks episode with more of her advice and guidance. Check it out. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.

• 25:03Matt Abrahams?

  Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community at fastersmarter.io/learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI coach, and book club opportunities. Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community.

• 25:24Matt Abrahams?

  Thanks for spending time with us today. I hope you took as much value as I did from this episode. There were so many more important ideas that we have created a Quick Thanks episode that continues my conversation on this important topic. Hope you'll give it a listen. And thanks as always for being part of our Think Fast, Talk Smart community. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.