Jamie Carragher: The Untold Story of Liverpool Legend That Pushed Himself Too Far

There is love for the beautiful game and then there is the all consuming passion that Jamie Carragher has for football. From a top class player to one its best television pundits, Jamie has devoted his life and career to the sport. From a working class upbringing as a Bootle boy to “Mr Liverpool”, Jamie has always stayed loyal to his roots and to the city that nurtured and supported him in reaching the heights that his career soared to. However, the sense of duty Jamie felt for his city and its supporters loaded him with a crippling pressure and mental toll. In this intimate conversation, Jamie opens the door to a level of sporting achievement that only a select few people ever get to see, discussing both its highs and lows, victories on the pitch and in the mind. As well as the journey from a boyhood fan to the local legend that is ‘Carra’. Jamie: Twitter - https://bit.ly/3FQ1VkC Instagram - https://bit.ly/3BQhqrC Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I couldn't get it out my mind, I had to get hold of a psychologist.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  I was just like, this can't go on.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Jamie Carragher is a Liverpool stalwart, 730 appearances. There's never going to be another Jamie Carragher. He's a winner.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  That's just ridiculous. I'm no huge Ronaldo fan, I think that's pretty obvious. It's sad for him, the way people are tweeting about Messi towards the end of his career and Ronaldo, and it's completely different. It's almost like he feels like he's not ready to do it. I got so much admiration for him for his mental strength, to be able to withstand fresh air criticism. And I saw too many players never recover from that. I knew from the first time I played football, for me, winning was all that mattered. If you say to me, what do I miss most about being a professional footballer? It's winning. I'd rather cheat and win than not win.

• 0:50Steven Bartlett?

  When Jamie loses a game, is he different?

• 0:52Speaker 00

  I punish myself when I didn't perform well, and I regret that. But there was always that thing of, am I good enough? I was just driving myself mad when I was at my absolute peak and best. That's when I needed more help. The feeling in your stomach is that bad, you're just, you're going to be there. I always remember, and the only time I've ever did this in my whole career.

• 1:14Steven Bartlett?

  Much of your success has been a result of a winning mentality in some of the toughest moments. Where does that come from?

• 1:22Speaker 00

  The reason why I've become the player I am, I think it's...

• 1:36Steven Bartlett?

  Jamie, when I start this podcast, I usually start with people's childhoods. But as I was reading through your story, I think this is the first time I'm going to start before the person was even born. Because I read that there was a possibility that you weren't even going to be born because of a, I guess a misdiagnosis that your mother was giving about you. Can you take me back to that?

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was...

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Would have been about, what did I say, would have been about 1977, obviously, 78 I was born. And me mum has had two miscarriages before me. And then when I, well, she fell pregnant with me. The doctors, nurses didn't know what was wrong, but they knew something was wrong. And initially they were saying, we think your child has got spina bifida. And I think, well, I'm certain in those days, maybe, I don't know if it's the same now. There's a chance you could terminate the pregnancy if the baby was whatever, you know.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  And me mum was, I think, was given that option. And she, me mum was, me mum was very holy, I think is the right word. Probably at that stage, in her early twenties, she would be going to church every day. She still goes every Sunday now. So her thing was now if, the word she says to me was, if our Lord wants me to have a baby who's got spina bifida, or maybe something else, that's, that's what's been decided for me. That's fine, it's my child, I love that child. And what I find fascinating when you think of sort of today is that

• 3:26Speaker 00

  the closer it got to me being born, it wasn't spina bifida, but they still knew something wasn't right. And it wasn't until I was born that I had basically, my insides were on the outside. So I've gastro, gastrocitis, it's called, the condition. Now, I've got a big scar right across my stomach. I mean, if, if someone has that condition today, and plenty of babies do, it's a really small scar. But the, the thing that I think is fascinating, you know, just makes me think, wow, on me mum's side is the fact that as soon as I was born, I was rushed away, straight away to Alderhey Children's Hospital,

• 4:09Speaker 00

  which is still going strong today in Liverpool. And because of what I've gone to achieve, I've got a real link with the hospital. And through our charity, we actually funded the ward that looks after babies who have Oh, really? what I had. But

• 4:28Speaker 00

  I get whisked away to Children's Hospital and me mum doesn't know anything. There's no phones, there's no, she's still in Visakhapatnam Hospital. Obviously, I've got a problem, straight up to Old Hey, my dad goes straight there, but again, the technology isn't like that. And I just think, how long must it have been before, well, me mum knew I was all right, what I had, how quickly did I have to go? You know, you can't quite fathom that when you think about today and how quickly we can get in touch with different people. So I just think about what was going through me mum's mind there for that sort of the next hour or two until, you know, she probably found out everything was okay.

• 5:07Steven Bartlett?

  Your knowledge of that story and that experience, has that left a lasting impact or impression on you? In terms of the decision your mum made, your mum made, or being whisked away, or the operation, or having the scar, or anything like that? Has that left any sort of impression on you at all?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Yes, all about me mum, I would say, you know, to, to, to have had two miscarriages, to have that going through your third pregnancy, to think you could lose the baby, the, no one can quite give you a definitive answer about what's going on with, you know, this child in your stomach. And then to, to not know straight away, I just, I only know of now, and when people have kids and I've had my own kids and everything's so documented, isn't it, whether it's, you know, the first picture, Instagram, you're there with the, the baby when the baby's born. I, I wasn't actually, maybe we can get to that later, I wasn't there for my first born. And that's something I do regret, but I just think about how,

• 6:11Speaker 00

  how me mum must have felt and, and sort of me looking at me mum, because I've been very lucky, the life I now lead, the experience that I've, I've had.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  You know, it's, it's not there if me mum doesn't make, you know, certain decisions, not only with my dad, of course, but yeah, for me mum to sort of make that decision. And I'm still here today.

• 6:30Steven Bartlett?

  What about your dad? What, what, um, talk to me about him and his character and what impact that had on you before the age of 10?

• 6:37Speaker 00

  He's a real big character, you know, he's, he'll be in the pub, he'll have a debate, he'll get up and sing, he'll have an argument with someone, he's like a real larger than life sort of character.

• 6:52Steven Bartlett?

  Who did you care about impressing the most? Just not even in the context of your parents, but just who were you trying to impress when you were young? Because for me, you know, it might have been my older brothers, it could have been my dad, it could have been, you know, a teacher. Who were you trying to impress?

• 7:05Speaker 00

  I mean, the obvious one to say is my dad, because he was the one who was always there in terms of, you're talking about football?

• 7:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  My mum never watched me play football.

• 7:15Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  I mean, my mum must have watched me play five times in my life. And that's nothing to do with not being proud of me or not being there, but I know it's not the done thing now, but it was almost a case of my dad took us to football and my mum stayed at home, you know, and did what we associate with women things. And now, obviously, that type of comment or them thoughts, certainly back then, be classed as sexist now, rightly so, but that was just the way it was. It wasn't, I don't think my mum was sort of badgering my dad to go to the football. She always just felt, well, okay, that's your thing to take them to the football, whether to be going to watch Everton as young kids or, you know, play me games for, you know,

• 7:59Speaker 00

  amateur teams, bootleg boys and I'm going to start on that journey.

• 8:02Steven Bartlett?

  And when you, when he took you to football, did he have high standards and expectations for you when you were playing?

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Yes, but I think that came not because he was so desperate for me to be a footballer. I think that became because I think he knew pretty early on I had something. You know, my dad had played football, my dad had watched football, my dad was a massive football fan. So he'd done everything you could do in football in terms of playing amateur football, managed amateur teams, went to watch Everton home and away. So he was just, he was obsessed with football. So from a young age, I think he was quite tough on me a couple of times that stand out, only because he knew the standards I could get to. And one of those times is like a story I put in my book, and I think sometimes when my dad listens back, I think he...

• 8:55Speaker 00

  I think he doesn't like me to say the story because I think he looks back at it and thinks, oh, I wish I hadn't have done that. But I've got no problem with it. You know, I think it's part of my life, part of my story that basically I was seven years of age.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  And I didn't want to play in a game. It was that cold. It was freezing. It was hailstone and I got tackled and I pretended I was here crying and come off. But me, me, me dad and I'm the same. We, we couldn't suffer bluffers or phonies, we'd say, you know, that type of thing. And he knew I was putting it on. And let's just say it was the last time I did.

• 9:28Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I read that part in your memoir.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:31Steven Bartlett?

  In your memoir, it says there was some raining football boots when you got home.

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, maybe there's a little bit of artistic license there with the, the guy who wrote it, but.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  But no, I think it was that. And I think throughout my football career.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  No, I'm not talking about feigning injury. I'm talking about the big thing for me and the big thing for me that I want to pass on to my son.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  Is having character. That for me will, will.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Take you to places that you don't think are possible. If you've got that personality, mental strength. Character, I think that overrides a lot of things.

• 10:09Steven Bartlett?

  That's really why I'm asking these questions because I could see throughout your career that much of your success has been. A result of a winning mentality and character in some of the toughest moments. And that's not the case with all the footballers that I've spoken to. That's just the case with some of them. And even when I sat with Peter Crouch, he referenced you as being.

• 10:29Steven Bartlett?

  So set on winning and so obsessed with winning that you didn't even, that he didn't think you were ever enjoying it. And so I'm trying to figure out, and you smile when I say that because you, you know, it's true. I've read you, I've heard you say that subsequently, but um. Where, where does that come from? Where does that character and that obsession with victory at all costs to the point that you. Cause suffering in yourself. Where does that come from?

• 10:55Speaker 00

  I think me dad and whether you whether you're born with something like that maybe, you know, you speak to a lot of probably more people who could give you that answer than I do and maybe have a better insight into it to me in some ways and that I'm not quite sure but I knew from the first time I played football for me winning was all that mattered. And if you say to me, what do I miss most about being a professional footballer, it's winning. It's not the taking parts, not the training. A lot of people always say this, I hear footballers say this all the time. I miss the dressing room. I don't miss the dressing room. I miss the dressing room after the game when we win. That like, oh, you've

• 11:35Speaker 00

  done something together. And I listened to Crouch's podcast because I seen it pop up somewhere. I think it was made online or something. Peter Crouch said Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher, writ off players after 15. I thought, I better listen to this one. But what Peter Crouch said is right. And he's probably looking at me a little bit dumbfounded. I can understand that. But I can't understand him. For me, Bill Shankly said, football is a matter of life and death. And I don't think he meant that. I think that was obviously tongue in cheek at the time. And no football club knows that statement

• 12:16Speaker 00

  is not true more than Liverpool Football Club. But it's very close to being true. That's the way I see it. That's football for me is a way of life and winning is all that matters. And for me, when I played, I'd rather cheat and win than not win. And I don't think I'll ever be any different. And that's why I think football has taken me to places in my life. That almost brings a tear to my eye, but it's always taken me to places where I'm like, I don't feel like I'm ever going to get over it, you know, a result or something hasn't gone well.

• 12:55Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned that that post-match feeling is the best and potentially the feeling you miss. But I've also heard you describe it as relief. You know, and that's, that's an interesting thing because people would think the post-match victory feeling would be euphoria and elation. But for you to describe it as relief is a curious word.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Because I knew how bad I'd feel if we didn't win or it hadn't gone well. It was almost relief that I'm not going to feel like that for the next two or three days because I would. I think I punished myself a little bit when I didn't perform well or we didn't win. And I regret that, but I don't know if I could have done anything different. It was what, it was me, you know, I spoke to a side. At one stage I spoke to, I had, I had to, I wasn't asked to, I had to get hold of a psychologist, sports psychologist that I knew because what I was doing to myself was, I was just driving myself mad. Really with the standards I was expecting of myself. And this, I must say, was not when I was not playing well in short of confidence. This was when I was at my absolute peak and best.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  That's when I needed more help because I got to a stage where I felt I couldn't make a mistake. If I, if, if I didn't play well, I thought we were going to lose. Yeah, because I wasn't daft, I was playing at my best, I was a huge part of the team. And there was sort of me at the back and Stevie Gerrard at the front, if you like. And there was lots of other great players around there, of course, but I knew I was a huge influence in the Rafa Benitez era. And I felt I'd go into big games thinking if I don't play well today, we're not going to win.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  And if I made a mistake, and I always remember the mistake I made, it was away at Atletico Madrid. Champions League group game, we're winning 1-0, we're under pressure constantly. And I'm, I'm playing really well, I'm in control. That was me and my element away from home in Europe for Liverpool, trying to get that clean sheet, organising, talking to everyone. And a long ball and I just misjudged it and he scored. And in the airport on the way home, I was just like, this can't go on. This has got to stop, you know, what I'm actually doing to myself, I've played great, I've made a little mistake, you know, they've capitalised on it. But you can't put yourself through that.

• 15:12Steven Bartlett?

  What was the symptoms that you were confronting in that moment? Why? What couldn't carry on? So you'd made that mistake, you're in the airport, you're on the plane, whatever. What is the, what's happening?

• 15:22Speaker 00

  I couldn't get it out of my mind. I couldn't. I'd go like two nights when I was sleeping. I mean, when I say not sleeping, I might get a couple of hours. I'd be like constantly on my mind. I'd wake up, it would be the first thing I think about. And I was just like, what am I doing to myself? But how would you stop it? But the fascinating thing was, when I spoke to the sports psychologist, that guy called Bill Bezwick, and I knew him from the England squad. After speaking to him, and then it got to the stage where I spoke to him, probably two or three times a season, almost like I'd reflect and, you know, what's gone on. I couldn't change. We actually got to the bottom of, actually, this is what's making you who you are.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  This is the drive to sort of, if you, if you did probably dismiss mistakes, I'm not too bothered. I'll be, I'll be fine next week. That wouldn't make, I wouldn't make you who you are. And I could still never shake it off. I couldn't. But I almost, by speaking to him, it made me understand and accept that's what I was. So I still went through turmoil if I didn't play well, if I made a mistake. I always wonder if that was like a byproduct of being a local player. I always think, what would I have been like if I had played for Aston Villa or Tottenham or, you know, I didn't know that many people, you know, it felt like you were playing for

• 16:50Speaker 00

  the club or the supporters or your family and friends, really, you know.

• 16:54Steven Bartlett?

  Did you ever feel anxiety in those moments? The feeling of anxiety? So when something is plaguing you so much that you almost feel that kind of sense of nervous energy that keeps you up at night and you feel it in your stomach?

• 17:03Speaker 00

  No. It was never anxiety. I would say anger. And I want to put this right. It's like, I didn't even want to sleep. I want to get to training the next day.

• 17:12Steven Bartlett?

  Did that come out in your home life? Because it's hard not to take that home with you.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it will have done. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  I remember something came up a year or two ago on Twitter about a group of players or a certain player or maybe a manager went out and had a meal or a few drinks after they'd lost and there was this big debate on Twitter, well why shouldn't they, you know, some fans are like, they shouldn't be like, they shouldn't go out. And there was this few big debates and I think Gary Lineker mentioned something that, I've never not changed, I've never changed my plans on the back of results. Okay, that that sounds nice. I thought it was unbelievable. I would change plans every single week if that game didn't go well. So that's where it would have affected my home life. So in terms of

• 18:07Speaker 00

  organising a night out, going for a meal with friends, whatever it may be, I couldn't have shown my face if we'd have lost and I played poorly. Not a chance. And I couldn't believe that some players could just carry on with their life. I'd be a bit like, oh no, no. Because the feeling in your stomach is that bad. You just, you don't even want to be, you don't want to be there. You don't want to be with people. You don't want to speak. You know, that's, that's how much it got me. And I go back to that, you know, would it have been different at another club? I would never have wanted to play for another club. But that is the one thing I do think about, would the results and performances have affected me differently?

• 18:45Steven Bartlett?

  You come home after, you know, losing a game or something, your family, your kids are like, hey!

• 18:53Speaker 00

  I mean, to be fair, my kids were quite young when I was still playing. But there was one game that stands out when I couldn't get out of something. I was opening a restaurant. I opened a restaurant about 10 or 15 years ago called Caffey Sports England in Liverpool. And the two times we opened...

• 19:16Speaker 00

  Those two games I didn't play well.

• 19:20Speaker 00

  And in my head before the game, I'm thinking, I've got to play well in this game because people will think if I don't play well, I've got my mind somewhere else. And I was probably too focused on the game in some ways. And then I had to go and almost open the restaurant and there was people there. And I remember the second one, it was like, no. I went, I was there 20 minutes. I was like, I've got to go.

• 19:41Steven Bartlett?

  If I spoke to Nicola, which I might have done, but I won't tell you before this, I'll ask the question. And I said, when Jamie loses a game, is he different? And what's he like? What would she have said to me?

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Hundred percent, yeah. Hundred percent.

• 19:54Steven Bartlett?

  What would she have said, do you reckon?

• 19:56Speaker 00

  He's not there when I'm talking to him. I think she'd probably say that.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Maybe now at different times, but I would be, I would be in a trance. I'd just be sort of daydreaming, people would be speaking to me. And it's probably best you just to leave me alone and not try and get my mind off it because I couldn't. Even if I, if I did get my mind off it, I know I'd go back to it. And you're talking about going home. I always remember one time where I said I was in a trance, where I was with the players. So I always remember we were playing a game against Everton, which for me is the biggest game. I had a nightmare in the game and we were going for a meal afterwards with the team.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Like an official, not a sort of few drinks. It was, it was to refuel basically. This game was an early morning kickoff. We had a Champions League game on the Tuesday night in, in Heidelberg. We got beat 3-0 at Goodison. And we've gone to the centre of Liverpool for a meal just to make sure we're eating the right food. And I remember just staring, just couldn't stop. I was just, I wasn't even eating, just, just staring.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  And next thing I get is a text message, Stevie Gerrard, he's just like, he's there, he's going, "Don't worry about it, it's gone, finished, you forget about it, you've got to try and..." But I was just like, he could just see, everyone was devastated. But for me, I just, I'm not trying to make out that I cared more than anybody else, because everyone's got their own ways of dealing with things, but I, yeah, it was a, yeah, it was, it's a huge part of my life, football, it always has been, always will be. I think I'll always be affected by football results. That's when I was playing, as an Everton fan, as a Liverpool fan right now, football results will affect me.

• 21:53Steven Bartlett?

  It sounds painful, it sounds like suffering, doesn't it sound like fun?

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Well, when you win, I can assure you, I make sure I enjoy them. I know afterwards I said before that it was relief, but you had that moment of sort of joy. The reason it was difficult to enjoy and why I'm probably different to a Peter Crouch or certain players who came in is that I think they'd come in from clubs where they played once a week and if they played well, it was like, "I don't need to worry to that game. I'm going to be off for two or three days", whereas we'd have a game Tuesday, Champions League or a cup game, and then it'd be right, enjoy that, right, bang, we're back on it now. It was almost like, you're just on this train and nothing's getting in the way, nothing's stopping. But I can assure you, it wasn't all doom and gloom, I loved it and so many nights and times

• 22:38Speaker 00

  and experiences, but I do wish I was a little bit kinder to myself on the back of a poor performance or a defeat. I mean, there's what, I keep thinking about one standing out. We won the FA Cup final in 2006, personally I'd had a great season. We'd kept 33 clean sheets, which was one away from a record, which was, which was obviously a lot. We played the cup final, I scored an own goal, I didn't play well, Stevie Gerrard wins the final and we go on the open bus tour around Liverpool. So I've had a great season, but not had a great last game. And my son's on the bus with me and I go on the top of the bus to start with. But you're on the bus for maybe three or four hours, within

• 23:21Speaker 00

  an hour I was downstairs. I was just sat there thinking, oh, it didn't go well, I didn't do that, you know, I didn't do. And I was thinking, now when I look at him embarrassed, I'm like, what are you doing? It was one game, you've had an unbelievable season, the team have, we won the FA Cup, we finished the season with a trophy. But I couldn't, it was almost like I was up there acting because I didn't feel like celebrating. But we'd won the cup. You know, and just because I hadn't, I'd made a mistake, hadn't played particularly well. I know most players would be able to go, I've had a great season, it was only one game, we won. I found it tough.

• 23:55Steven Bartlett?

  People that have that winner's mindset, they, as you kind of alluded to a second ago, they often struggle to understand those that don't, to relate to them. And they often have a lot of friction with the people that don't have the winner's mindset because when you see the world in that way, I saw it a lot in Michael Jordan's documentary Last Dance.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  It was brilliant, wasn't it?

• 24:14Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. I think I got a poster upstairs after I watched it. But he had that mindset where he was, you could see he would like pick on certain people who wouldn't meet him at his level. Did you ever find yourself and Stevie doing that, where if someone came into the dressing room and they weren't at that level, you would, you'd either, you'd force them out or you'd, I mean, that's kind of what Peter Crouch was alluding to, right? That he was kind of saying that you two would be protecting the bar?

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think what happens is, I think what Peter was trying to mention, which I think was a little bit unfair the way he described it, was that when a new player came in, I think me and Stevie were fans, we weren't just players, we were fans. It was like, oh God, I hope he's good. You know, like a fan would, I hope this new fellow's good. And when you come in after the first training session, it'd be more than a joke, oh God, this doesn't look good, does it? Or, you know what I mean, that type of thing of like, oh God, I hope this goes well. But I was Stevie.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Stevie was different to me and I was very vocal, very emotional. Stevie's maybe body language on the pitch at times would be questioned if, you know, he wasn't happy with somebody, he might turn away, you know. Whereas I'd be remonstrating, screaming, shouting, you know. And not in terms of someone hadn't played poorly, but mine would be more in terms of organisation, someone doing the job for the team, where are you, where you need to be. I always felt like I was the coach of the team in some ways and because I played at centre back and I could, you know, see the whole team in front of me. Yeah, but we would be on top of people, but I don't, I wouldn't like that to come across in like a bullying way or we were trying to, you know, keep people down here.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  We loved Torres Alonso and we loved being around great players because you wanted, because you wanted to win. That was all that mattered. It wasn't about securing your place or making sure I was protected in any way. It was that thing of like, it's Liverpool. The big clubs, it's not enough to play for them. And I know some people think I played for this club and it's on your CV and it's a great achievement to get to a Liverpool, a United, Chelsea, City, but it's not enough to play for and you've got to win. The whole existence of those clubs is about winning. If they're not winning, there's no point, you know. So that was my, my drive at Liverpool was to win every single day.

• 26:35Steven Bartlett?

  When Gerard Houllier came in as a manager, it's Houllier, is it Houllier? Gerard, we'll just call him Gerard Houllier. When he arrived at Liverpool in, I think it was 1986, 1998, 1998 he came into the, the club. The players took to him at first, as I read, because he, one of the key decisions he made was around Paul Ince.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Hmm. You say the players took to him?

• 26:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  No, I think he found it difficult to start with.

• 27:00Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 27:00Speaker 00

  I think there was a, a big split in the camp in that the players who'd come before that with Roy Evans and Gerard Houllier came in, he was new to it. And yeah, I think it was tough for him in that first season. Yeah.

• 27:15Steven Bartlett?

  Did, did that turn at some point? Did he win the trust of the players?

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, he, Paul Ince, a great, great fella. I got on great with Paul Ince. Great player as well. Didn't have the career that Liverpool has had, maybe at other clubs. And I think Gerard Houllier just wanted to make a fresh start and he wanted to, I think most, a lot of managers do it, they, they take on. You know, the big guy, if you like. And he was certainly that. He was, I think he was maybe England's captain or vice captain at the time. But he wanted to completely revolutionise Liverpool and completely change it. And yeah, he had words with Paul Ince.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  And the thing was not about him having words as such, but also the fact that he didn't sort of back down. He really held his own. He had a strong argument in the team meeting. And you think, wow, he just stood up to probably one of the best midfield players of his generation. What was that strong argument in the team meeting? It was over. Paul Ince questioned what we were doing in training, as senior pros do at times, you know. We're trying to get it right. Why are we doing this? Why are we doing that? And I think Gerard Houllier saw it as his opportunity to sort of stand his authority. It was almost like, I would imagine, he was glad Paul Ince had said it. And it was Paul Ince in some ways. And I don't think the message was for Paul Ince, because I think he was always going to get rid of Ince.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  I think the message was to the rest of us, you know, don't try and take me on. This is what we're going to do. Publicly in front of, in the team meeting, told Paul? Yeah, basically. No, you wouldn't be at this club anymore. But he questioned his desire in a game. And to be fair, Paul Ince was probably one of the bravest footballers you'd see. But in a particular game against Manchester United, we'd lost it 2-1 and we'd lost two goals in the last minute. And I think it was a very sore defeat for everyone. So I think everyone was a little bit emotional about it. And because Ince had jumped up and said something, he just went straight back and said he wasn't happy that he'd come off. He shouldn't have come off. My captain should come off on a stretcher from Old Trafford.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  And it was interesting with Gerard Houllier in that we had him the first foreign manager. And all of a sudden, people would associate him with this flair football and being maybe a bit nice. But that was, that was what the Liverpool team was. Before Gerard Houllier came, he completely went the other way and wanted big, strong, powerful players, aggression. And that's why me and him had such a great relationship, because I was such a competitor. Maybe he didn't have the quality that some of the players had in the Roy Evans team, you feel like in some of the football they played was outstanding. But he just wanted people who would die for that shirt.

• 30:00Steven Bartlett?

  Because I read that part of the reason why his reign as manager sort of came to an end was because he made some bad signings and he was, he didn't really inquire enough about the players that he was signing's character and their personality. And so, and I was just so compelled by that idea that that's one of the most important things when you're building teams, is finding people that have the same mentality and character versus just great sort of technical players. I think about the same in business. Like, I'm always considering how someone will support our culture, make our culture better, raise the bar in terms of like that mentality versus just being able to do fucking a thousand kick-ups or whatever, loads of skills.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think you do need a certain mentality to play for Liverpool.

• 30:43Steven Bartlett?

  What is that mentality?

• 30:44Speaker 00

  And the other big clubs. To be able to withstand pressure, criticism, that comes your way. So often I saw a lot of Liverpool players who would start really well, and it wouldn't, it wouldn't make me think, we've got a great player here. I'd always think, let's see a couple of months down the line, because I knew what was coming. Because every player goes through a few bad games, he gets criticism, whatever it may be. And I saw too many players never recover from that. And that, that tells me that for me, the top level football is mentality. It was, do you have that personality, character to

• 31:25Speaker 00

  get you through those tough moments and come back and fight back and not give in?

• 31:30Steven Bartlett?

  Can you teach that?

• 31:31Speaker 00

  I don't know. You tell me. What do you think?

• 31:36Steven Bartlett?

  I tend to believe that it comes from experience. I think resilience and that sort of character traits come from being knocked down loads of times. So when the 10th failure or knockdown comes, or the 10th moment of hardship comes, you're more equipped to deal with it. So players that haven't been through the tougher, you know, challenges in their life, maybe in their personal life, maybe where they come from, don't have that.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Well, it's interesting. We're doing this this afternoon and this morning he's somewhere in for an knee operation.

• 32:09Steven Bartlett?

  Your son did?

• 32:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:11Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  So he's going for the operation. He's a professional footballer. And permanently having been able to probably sleep about it, thinking about it, you know, just you just want to do as much as you can, you know, to help them because it's your son. But the thing I keep drumming home to him, and I keep saying it almost every day, we're not using this as an excuse. This is not going in the way. It's like, this has happened, is it? Okay, bump, we're going again. It's like, this I know for a lot of people, or players, or young players, or whatever it may be, would be a hurdle to come across, and understandably so. But it's not in years to come going to be, oh, I didn't quite do

• 32:54Speaker 00

  what I wanted because of that knee op. Yeah, and this never happened, and that. It's like, no. There's, there's going to be lots of things in his career, as in my career, obstacles in the way. You've got to get over them. You've got to get them out of the way, or you've got to deal with it and then keep going. Nothing's, and that was always my mindset, and that's what I'm trying to put into my son. I'm pretty confident he's got, he's got that mindset of nothing stops you. Nothing gets in your way. You don't use anything as an excuse or a reason why something didn't happen. That no excuse mentality, you just, you keep going. Nothing gets, no obstacles in the way.

• 33:29Steven Bartlett?

  You said earlier on that you might not have cared as much as you did. You might not have had that, that same level of, sort of excruciating obsession and care about the results and the outcome and winning if you'd been at another club. And you were at another club, which is England.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 33:44Steven Bartlett?

  And you didn't seem to care as much. You said that, you remember. I, I was quite shocked to read that, that, I remember the text message that said, fuck it, it's only England. And generally, you didn't seem to be as excruciatingly hard on yourself after losing for England as you did with losing for Liverpool.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  I think that was down to the fact that I didn't carry the same responsibility because I I never really played. I was like a squad player, really. I wouldn't class myself as patriotic.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Not at all. I'm, I don't know what the, I don't, can you be patriotic of your own city? Is that, is that a word or is there something?

• 34:21Steven Bartlett?

  I have no idea.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  I'm massively, I'm massively passionate about my own city. And

• 34:30Speaker 00

  maybe that comes from the way we're brought up in Liverpool. You know, the thing of you feel as if like a lot of the country's against you. And maybe that's, some of it's true. Some people outside of it will think, oh, that's a chip on your shoulder. But there is that sort of, we sort of buy into that. And that doesn't mean like, I'm against England as such, but it, watching England down in the World Cup would never take me to a place emotionally, the way it would if I saw Liverpool playing. It just wouldn't take me there. It's not like a conscious thing of, I'm not gonna make, I'm not gonna be happy about this. It's just inside me. And, and, and that wasn't just when I was playing for England. That was when I was a

• 35:13Speaker 00

  a child. I'd be thinking, why aren't England picking the Everton players? You know, it almost felt like England was a team from down south or a London team. That's just the, the feeling I had. And, but I think if, if I would have become a mainstay of the England team,

• 35:30Speaker 00

  I think I would have felt that. I think I would have got there. And that's my one disappointment in my football career. It's the only team in my life from when I started, five years later, I didn't dominate. And when I say dominate was be a mainstay of the team, be one of the voices of the team, be one of the leaders. Because I wasn't good enough. That's a simple fact.

• 35:50Steven Bartlett?

  There's lots of players that you've encountered in your career that didn't reach their potential. You're talking about reaching your potential, doing your best, getting to the, getting to the top of your potential a second ago. When you think about why those players didn't reach their potential, if you had to point out characteristics or behaviours that led them to miss their potential, what would those behaviours be? The traits of losers.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  I think blaming other people at different times for their own poor games, mistakes, always looking for excuses, I would say. I think I'm pretty honest, and I was as a player, and I always remember

• 36:31Speaker 00

  when I was a young lad, I had a bad game. I keep talking about my bad games, don't I?

• 36:36Speaker 00

  You remember them all. But a very famous coach who was a huge inspiration to me was Ronnie Moran. And I'd played a game and played poorly, and I did an interview after the game saying it was my fault, those goals were my fault.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  And even though this was a coach who was a real sort of man's man, a legend of Liverpool Football Club. He wasn't the coach then, he still used to come in and walk around the training ground. And he said, "Don't ever do that again."

• 37:09Speaker 00

  He said, "You don't need to open yourself up like that." He said, "Be honest with the dressing room and to your manager." But he said, "You know what I mean? Sometimes you've got to be clever and look after yourself a little bit and you don't need to be as honest. You think you're doing the right thing." And I think I knew exactly where he was coming from, and I think at times you need to be honest, but I think probably other times like that you maybe need to protect yourself a little bit, but you're never hide behind the fact that it was someone else's fault. And again, I keep going back to my son because I'm not a coach or a manager. And people say to me, "You know, could you give something back?" But I'm not trying to give it back to my son. And things like that, don't question the manager. Don't make excuses, don't blame the manager. Or if you come in and say, "Oh, the coach or the trainer."

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Well, get something out of it. Don't be in the dressing room saying, "Oh, this isn't good or that isn't good."

• 37:58Steven Bartlett?

  On the point of questioning the manager, one of the things I read was that Gerard Houlié, Houlié, I can't say his bloody name.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Houlié.

• 38:04Steven Bartlett?

  Houlié, cool. One of the reasons why he ultimately ended up leaving the club was because he had started to lose his authority in the dressing room. Now, Peter Crouch said to me that great managers, even when they don't know the right answers, pretend they do. Because they know that if they ever get to a point where the players know that they're not in control, then the authority's gone. And there was a story I read about Gerard Houlié

• 38:29Steven Bartlett?

  picking a team and then going and asking Gerard if it was the correct team. And then Gerard said, "It's not the correct team" and changed it. This happened in... In spring in 2004, in the run up to a Premier League match, away to Manchester United, Gerard Houllier picked the team but then consulted with Gerrard whether the selection was right. He said it wasn't right and then Houllier changed it.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  I don't, it rings a bell. I don't know the specific game, if that was the right game, but I think towards the end of his time, I think the results aren't going well. And managers, no matter who they are, they will lose confidence. And Stevie at that time was obviously a mega star and you're trying to maybe keep people onside, if you like. Not that I think the players were ever offside with Gerard Houllier, but that confidence and belief in the manager starts to ebb away when results don't go well. I wouldn't say Gerard Houllier ever lost the dressing room in terms of how we felt about him as a man, but it was, it was a time for it to come to an end. There's no doubt about that.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  And it's an interesting one that, does a manager lose the dressing room? Yes. He's, he's always lost part of the dressing room because of the players who he's not picking. But I think it's when that belief goes really. But for me, again, I think I was different to other players because I never played for the manager, ever. I always played for the club. And again, because it was the club, I always felt like I played for the club and the supporters. And I'm not saying that to curry favour with the supporters as such, but no manager bought me. You know, I didn't know a manager or anything as such. I mean, Roy Evans gave me my debut, I suppose, and other managers played me,

• 40:18Speaker 00

  but I never had that sort of feeling that we need to win this for the manager.

• 40:28Steven Bartlett?

  Rafa Benitez comes in next. What's the difference between Gerard Houllier and Rafa Benitez in terms of style? Because I find it so compelling that managers can be great for various different reasons. And we think of management as like a formula. But as I sit here with football players that have had seven, eight, nine managers, they all say that managers are completely different in their style and approach.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, Rafa was completely different. Gerard Houllier was a manager. I think Gerard Houllier was the type of guy who could...

• 40:58Speaker 00

  He could manage an organisation, didn't just have to be football. I think he could have been a bank manager, he could have been a CEO if you like. Organise people, get everyone focused on, you know, what do we want to achieve? But the actual day-to-day stuff of coaching, I don't think it wasn't his forte. And it might sound strange, I don't think he had a huge knowledge of the game, enough. But it wasn't somebody who was going to say something to you in a coaching session or a tactical point that made you think, oh, never heard that before, or that's a bit different. It wasn't like that, his thing was bringing people together for a common goal. Almost what I've described him to other people. People say Clive Woodward, the England rugby coach, World Cup winning coach,

• 41:42Speaker 00

  was probably similar in that, that he'd have other coaches but he'd always be coming up with ideas to create sort of a siege mentality, a togetherness. Whereas Rafa was a coach, he was on that training pitch every day. And he was a lot colder than Gerard Houllier, he was a lot more interested in the kids, the wife, you know, yourself, you know, he'd ask me about my dad or different things like that. Whereas Gerard Houllier, Rafa didn't want to get involved in anything, I think it was just football. I mean, I think I was obsessed with football, Rafa was just like, he was probably above me. So, but it was different, but it doesn't... I mean, I'll be honest with you, when we describe managers, like the one who come a couple after was Roy Hodgson.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  And it didn't go particularly well, but my point is, when a new manager comes in, I want to get whatever I can from him. So, he may not work for Liverpool, I may not like X but I might like Y and Z. So, you're always going to be a sponge and taking things in and learning things. And I think when Gerard Houllier came in, I was a bit part player and then became a fully-fledged member of Liverpool's first 11 for the next five years. And then Rafa came in and then again stepped up a level to become the vice-captain and one of the leaders in the team, one of the best players in the team. So, I always think I got the most from these other managers coming in, you know,

• 43:10Speaker 00

  certainly Gerard Houllier, I don't think would have ever heard of me.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  Maybe, you know, not too much. But I think it's important when people come into your life, figures of authority, you've got to basically squeeze everything out of them to your advantage. And I think I did that with both managers.

• 43:29Steven Bartlett?

  Let's do the biggest pro and con then. So from what I know of these individuals as managers, so Gerard Houllier, you said he's a great sort of man manager, CEO type. That's probably, from what I hear, one of his greatest strengths. His downside is maybe a lack of football knowledge? Is that what you?

• 43:42Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say it was a downside because he had coaches around him who did the training sessions. It just, it got to its natural end in that, you know, we shouldn't forget, I mean, he nearly lost his life managing Liverpool. And he's then making decisions. Is he in a fully, you know, football focused state of mind when he's actually recovering from almost losing his life? And we made a few signings that didn't work. And to be honest, that's always our ends for Liverpool managers when it comes to the end, that they have a summer where they buy a few players, they don't quite work out. And then the next manager has to, has to come in because, you know, the, the energy and the excitement, not just from the squad, but also the supporters just petering out.

• 44:24Steven Bartlett?

  So Rafa's great tactically obsessed with football, obsessed with the game, but his sort of downside was, if they're, I mean, everyone has a fucking downside. I have a downside as a manager and a CEO.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:33Steven Bartlett?

  Is, is probably the, the man management stuff?

• 44:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I don't think that's, that stops us winning as such.

• 44:39Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's just a different approach.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  You know, nobody is everything.

• 44:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Alex Ferguson is not a coach. He's probably more like a Gerard Houllier type figure and has coaches there. Rafa Benitez, people will question his man management, but I, I don't question it as such. And I don't question Gerard Houllier or other managers. You've just got to do what's your strength, that's your strength. So if Rafa Benitez's strength is not the man management I'm putting this act on, it's all about being obsessed with football and coaching every single day, do what you're good at.

• 45:08Steven Bartlett?

  That's what I find interesting is there's so many ways to win. Because when I sat here with all the United players, Rio, Patrice, Gary, they all say about Sir Alex Ferguson, they go, man manager, but only came in the training room dressing ground twice in 26 years, whatever. And I, and then you hear about these other people like Rafa, who also tremendously successful, won the biggest trophies you could possibly win, but wasn't that way inclined.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  History is written by the winner. It doesn't matter what you do. So if Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't do well at Man United. Those same players be saying to you, he's never at the training ground.

• 45:41Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  He's never there.

• 45:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  We don't do tactical work, he doesn't do any coaching. It's all about winning. And, and to be honest, what you're saying there is interesting because one time, I remember Rafa Benitez,

• 45:54Speaker 00

  he, he knew someone at United and he said, Ferguson doesn't even coach. Because in Rafa's mind, you've got to be, to be a top man, you're a coach. You know, I think when him and Mourinho came along, they were like coaches and probably couldn't get their head around the way Alex Ferguson was. And it was almost, it was almost a little bit dismissive and it wasn't like I was trying to defend the Manchester United manager, it was just at training. Even Ferguson doesn't even do the coaching. I said, so what?

• 46:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  It's like, it doesn't matter. He wins, there's different ways of winning. And, and that's my thing on TV now, there's no right or wrong way to play football. It's being the best you can be at what you do. And that, and if that for Rafa Benitez is being on that training ground, coaching, not getting involved in stuff away from the pitch, well, that's someone else's job. You know, no one is perfect at any, Alex Ferguson wasn't a great coach, so he brought in great coaches. I think that's really important, not just in, in, in football management, I actually think in life, in that, for me, I'm a little bit wary of getting involved in things where I think that's not my area of expertise. I think I'd be a little bit arrogant of myself to think I could just parachute myself in there and,

• 47:00Speaker 00

  you know, start run the show or get right involved in it. So I, I think we, we all got to know where our strengths are and all got to know where we need help because we all need help.

• 47:09Steven Bartlett?

  That's what Richard Branson taught me. You know, reading through his story, but also getting to speak to him on this podcast. This is a guy who didn't know what the difference between net profit and gross profit until I think he was 50, which is the, one of the key principles, like understandings of running a business. Dyslexic, can't look at presentations. If you try and show him words on a slide deck, he, he won't look at it, he'll only look at pictures. He's got so many. Deficiencies in areas that you think are critical to business, but the one thing that everyone says, he says, and everyone around him says, was because of all of his deficiencies, he made up for it by being the best delegator in the world. So he found people that could plug all of these gaps and gave them huge responsibility. And you think, you know, by the age of, at the same time when he doesn't know the difference between

• 47:52Steven Bartlett?

  net profit and gross profit, he's running 50 different companies. Virgin is now 400 different companies. And you go, how is someone who's, in his own words, like, not good at business, doing that? Well, just a supreme delegator. And Sir Alex Ferguson, the same, bad coach, but had, can't remember his name, that guy that did it.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Carlos Keir, Steve McClain, lots of different ones, didn't he? But I think, I think what you're saying is really good because the career I've had has afforded me so many opportunities. I'm so fortunate that I, I meet, I'm speaking to you. You know, you're speaking to other people who are experts in their field. But when you speak to them, and that story about Richard Branson is perfect in that, if you don't know them, and, you know, say my family and friends, sometimes they're fascinated by some of the people I meet. And I said, I'm lucky to be in certain situations. And they look at these people like they're, they're extraordinary. And when you've got a sort of relationship with someone, whether it's

• 48:51Speaker 00

  someone I work on TV with, they're just normal people. And they've got the same sort of insecurities that you've got. But they've got something about them where they've got sort of, maybe it's an opportunity that's arisen, they've grabbed it with both hands, they've, and enthusiasm, something about them has put them in that position. But they're not extraordinary people. They've got an extraordinary talent for that, you know, which finds themselves, I feel it in that field. So. That thing where people are so impressed with someone or think they're going to give them these words that they've never heard of before. I think the older I get now, I realise that a lot of people in, you know, great positions,

• 49:36Speaker 00

  it's not because they're some genius. Sometimes, as I said, it's opportunity. They've seen a niche in the market, whatever it may be, they've just gone out there and grabbed it.

• 49:44Steven Bartlett?

  You know, there's a real trap I've noticed, based on exactly what you've said, where someone's successful, so what we do is we assume that they get everything right. And so with Richard Branson, because he's a super successful entrepreneur, we assume that he's the best at marketing, branding, finance, all of these things. And I noticed this a lot when I was in San Francisco and we were, it was when Snapchat, the app had blown up and we were building a chat app. And what you'd see the team doing was whenever we were trying to make a decision, the team were going, well, what does Snapchat do? Because Snapchat was successful, we assumed that their marketing strategy, every feature they had, everything they did with the login form, we assumed everything they did was right. And I came to, I came to sort of see that bias in myself and it's exactly what you've described.

• 50:28Steven Bartlett?

  If we see someone who is at the top of the game, we assume that they are godlike in everything. And that's what you do with Richard Branson. You assume he's the best speaker in the world, you assume he's the best salesman. No, in reality, from what I've learnt from doing this and honestly, looking at my own life, because I'm not actually good at business. Like, I'm not good at the business stuff. I'm not good at like finance, operations, processes, but I'm good at this one thing. And that's what I learnt from Richard is Richard's good at this one thing. He's like, I'd say he's good at the branding piece, but he's, he's just an unbelievable delegator. So that's, yeah, I mean, that's, that's what I got from all of that, but it's, it's funny having this conversation in the wake of Richard Branson, because he's the, the best example of that. One of the, obviously, one of the defining moments, I think in football generally, not

• 51:11Steven Bartlett?

  just as Liverpool, as a Liverpool player or a Liverpool fan, was that final away at Istanbul. You, you go in at half time, I think it's 2005 final, you go in 3-0 down. When you go down that tunnel at 3-0 down, honestly, do you think you can turn that game around?

• 51:28Speaker 00

  No, no, no, not at all, no.

• 51:31Steven Bartlett?

  What are you thinking when you walk through the tunnel then?

• 51:32Speaker 00

  It's going to be 6-0.

• 51:34Steven Bartlett?

  Is that what you're thinking?

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Hmm. How can we stop it being 6-0? I think if you lose a game 3-0. It happens, if you lose 5 or 6-0, it's remembered. And that was my fear. That was fear.

• 51:51Steven Bartlett?

  What happened in the dressing room? What did Rafa say?

• 51:54Speaker 00

  Not a lot. He wasn't a motivator. He was a tactician. And he made changes in there, system-wise, strategically to change it. But if I'm being honest, I think the changes he made was not to win the game. I think the changes he made was to stop it becoming 5 or 6-0. Because we actually brought on a defensive midfield player, Didier Man. We went to, you can call it three at the back, but you can be five at the back if you like, rather than playing four. Don't get me wrong, the changes helped us go on and get the goals. But I think initially we need to stop what AC Milan are doing, otherwise this is going to be a massacre.

• 52:30Steven Bartlett?

  Why did the game turn around?

• 52:35Speaker 00

  I think the changes Rafa made, a little bit of luck, and Steven Gerrard.

• 52:42Steven Bartlett?

  He scores the header, 54 minutes or something, and then within a couple more minutes, you're 3-3.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  That's the little bit of luck you need to score so quickly, right after. That happens in some games. And we did get a little bit of luck. I think the linesman actually flagged for an offside. The referee didn't see it. And they carried on playing for 30 seconds, so the linesman puts his flag down. And that's in the run-up to us getting our second goal. So we scored the second goal and then, do you know what you can describe it? It's just, you know when you're on a football pitch, you smell it, 3-2. We knew it was going to, I knew it was going to be 3-3. Everybody knew it was going to be 3-3. You just...

• 53:20Steven Bartlett?

  What is that?

• 53:21Speaker 00

  I don't know. You just, the reason I know is because when we scored 3-2, no-one celebrated the goalscorer. Everyone just runs back.

• 53:34Steven Bartlett?

  He started celebrating, didn't he?

• 53:35Speaker 00

  He started celebrating, but it's...

• 53:37Steven Bartlett?

  He was going crazy. I remember thinking, you shouldn't do that.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, but everyone's back. It's like everyone's in a zone. And you don't need to speak to other people. Sometimes there's moments in games where you just, you can smell it, you can fear that something's happening.

• 53:49Steven Bartlett?

  Is that a culture thing as well? Because there's certain clubs who have that. When they go 2-0 down, 3-0 down, everyone goes, oh, they're going to do it, they're going to come back. And there's that mentality where you go, we're not safe here, they're coming for us.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  I think Liverpool and Man United have got it. City seem to have it now. City, yeah. Certainly in the last couple of years under Pep Guardiola. I've always felt Chelsea have had that in the last 10 years or so. Even when they weren't at their best, they'd still find a way to win. And yeah, I know our club's got that and will always have that. You just, it just, you feel like something's going to happen. Why has Liverpool done so well in the Champions League? I think a lot of that is emotion, belief. Winning those finals as well. Yeah, winning finals, the history that's gone before, the Anfield crowd believe it, the opposition coming to Anfield believe that something's going to happen special. This is a mythical football ground. Do you believe they're the best fans in the Premier League?

• 54:47Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say that. And the reason I wouldn't say that is because everybody thinks they're the best fans. Yeah. And I think if I do say that, I won't be turning on my Twitter notifications in a few days after this podcast comes out. But no, I would say yes, but every set of supporters, what they do to follow their team home and away. I think Anfield's special. I don't think anyone could deny that.