Heaven's Gate Pt. 2 with Alexis Linkletter and Jac Vanek

In March 1997, as the Hale-Bopp comet passed Earth, 39 members of Heaven’s Gate were found dead in a California mansion, having participated in one of the largest mass suicides in modern U. S. history. They believed their deaths were not an end, but a transition — a deliberate “exit” from human bodies to board a spacecraft trailing the comet. In Part 2, we explore the final days of the group, the psychological mechanisms that sustained unwavering loyalty, and the carefully orchestrated ritual that sealed their fate. Was this collective delusion, coercive control, or the ultimate consequence of charismatic authority unchecked? The tragedy of Heaven’s Gate forces us to confront how far belief can go when doubt is no longer allowed to exist. Then, Alexis Linkletter and Jac Vanek from The First Degree https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-first-degree/id1423759123 join Dr. Engels and Vanessa Richardson for an extended conversation exploring the legacy of Heaven’s Gate and the enduring questions it raises about belief, manipulation, and the human need for certainty. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Feeling like you don't belong can shape your entire life. It can push you to search for a meaning, a community, and a place where you finally feel understood. For Marshall Applewhite, that sense of alienation never went away, even when he surrounded himself with like-minded people. Instead, it only caused him to drift further away. Over time, he stopped seeing himself as different from others and started believing he wasn't even human.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  Things only got worse when Marshall suffered a devastating loss. After that, he convinced his followers that the only way to escape a broken world was to leave it entirely. Not spiritually or metaphorically, but for good. And his final act of desperation resulted in one of the most infamous mass deaths in American history.

• 1:45Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and once again, Dr. Engels and I are thrilled to have Alexis Linkletter and Jac Vanek join us as we conclude our deep dive into Heaven's Gate. Welcome back, ladies.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  We're so happy to be back.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  So happy.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Please, come back anytime. I said this in part one, but I want to say it again. In case you didn't immediately follow the first degree, you absolutely need to.

• 2:22Vanessa Richardson?

  And just like last time, Alexis and Jack will introduce the episode for us. Then be sure to stick around for an extended conversation with them and Dr. Engels about this incredible case.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yes, it's been amazing, so let's get into it. Today, Vanessa and Dr. Engels are finishing up their deep dive in a Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Lou Metzels, the founders of the group known as Heaven's Gate. Last time, they took you through Marshall and Bonnie's origins and how their deep feelings of isolation brought them together in just about the worst way possible. Today, they'll talk about how Marshall and Bonnie's beliefs became even more dangerous, leading to the shocking deaths that still haunt us today.

• 3:02Speaker 03

  It really is a case that stays with you, and for good reason. You know, I think it's kind of different than most type of cult cases that you hear about. There are many different aspects of it that aren't really normal. And I find it really fascinating the more that we really dive into it. Lex, what do you think?

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think especially with this cult story, you know, cults, I feel like usually they sequester themselves and they're in more isolated areas. This one being in Southern California as well, sort of like in this very affluent neighborhood. It really made it just very notorious and it kind of happened under everyone's noses.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, hearing from people that are still living that were part of the cult. The way that they talk about it is very in high regard. So it's just such an interesting case to me. So for this part of the story, we're really interested in Dr. Engels' thoughts. And as Vanessa goes through the story, she'll be talking about things like how criminals are driven by a need to feel like they belong, how authority is wielded in cult environments, and how some people's spiritual convictions can override their survival instincts.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 4:24Vanessa Richardson?

  By the spring of 1976, 49-year-old Bonnie Liu Nettles and 44-year-old Marshall Applewhite had finally amassed a following. They'd convinced over 100 other spiritual seekers that the end of the world was near, and that they were messengers sent from the cosmos to shepherd others to a heavenly realm. They called their group Human Individual Metamorphosis. However, Bonnie and Marshall didn't just view themselves as guides. They projected themselves as Christ-like figures who'd be assassinated by their enemies, and upon their deaths, they would be miraculously healed and transformed into perfect immortal aliens. At that point, their most loyal followers would also become aliens, and they would

• 5:09Vanessa Richardson?

  all be carried up in a UFO to their heavenly home world. They promised their followers they'd be saved only if they gave up all earthly pleasures, including their families, personal possessions, and all forms of sexual intimacy. Some of their followers abided wholeheartedly. However, Bonnie and Marshall, who called themselves "The Two," seemed to lose people almost as quickly as they gained them. By then, they had 88 followers, about half of what they had at the height of their outreach. Most people who left had either literally gotten lost while traveling the country recruiting others, or had become disillusioned with The Two's ideologies. But they weren't worried. The smaller numbers

• 5:52Vanessa Richardson?

  and single location meant Bonnie and Marshall could exert even greater control over their remaining followers.

• 5:59Tristin Engels?

  Okay, so they're shifting from wanting to expand to consolidating. So there's a few possible reasons why that could be. And I think the primary is that growth brings scrutiny. The larger a group becomes, the harder it is to control the message, their behavior, and their loyalty. I think this is especially true back then, when there were no cell phones or internet, especially on mobile devices. Because right now, members are getting lost. That also creates more risk with regard to control because travel means exposure to outside influence. A smaller group is easier to monitor and manage. Also, the intensity of ideologies increase over time.

• 6:42Tristin Engels?

  As it becomes more extreme, it tends to appeal to fewer people. So when leaders notice that, they may stop prioritizing recruiting new members and they start focusing on the commitment within the group instead. So why aren't Bonnie and Marshall worried about that? I think psychologically, losing members can actually be validating because it can reinforce the idea that only the truly loyal and devoted remain and their loyalty tests worked. These are all reasons why they likely decided to focus on containment at this stage.

• 7:18Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, in Wyoming, the two continued to maintain their rules around sex, drugs, and alcohol. They let their members work odd jobs to help support the group, but they couldn't have permanent careers. Not like they really needed it. Around this time, Bonnie and Marshall recruited a follower who had a trust fund. Through that person, they gained access to about $300,000 or $400,000. That would be almost $2 million today. They also gained followers with inheritances and real estate connections. Now Bonnie and Marshall had more than enough to provide for their followers. The group moved around a lot, but eventually they went from camping under the stars each night to occasionally renting out nice suburban homes

• 8:01Vanessa Richardson?

  and even rooms in ski resorts, which they obtained through their real estate connections. Some followers were confused about this. All along, they'd been told to give up earthly pleasures, but Bonnie and Marshall insisted that so-called "next level beings" should live in comfort, and no one seemed to argue. Instead, people were even more willing to do what Bonnie and Marshall said. And when it came to people's behavior, the two took their guidelines very seriously. In 1976, they expelled 19 people for either breaking the rules or not being committed enough to the group's overall message. That way, they knew whoever was left was serious about ascending to the next level and becoming extraterrestrials like them.

• 8:48Vanessa Richardson?

  For the next six years, Bonnie and Marshall treated each day like boot camp for outer space. And if people did as they were told, then living under the two could actually be fun. Bonnie and Marshall encouraged people to laugh, play games, and form close friendships. Some followers thought of them like parents. While Marshall was the charismatic one who attracted new members and enforced the rules, Bonnie was the religious leader. She educated the rest of the group using a blend of Christianity, New Age mysticism, and science fiction. But at the heart of all the doctrines, the ultimate goal was self-actualization. To

• 9:29Vanessa Richardson?

  get there, members structured their lives around meals, sleep, work, meditation, prayer, and creating homes. This last part, where they lived, was especially important. According to Bonnie and Marshall, next-level extraterrestrials lived and worked on spacecraft like in Star Trek. Because of that, their followers referred to their houses as "crafts." Bedrooms were called "rest chambers," kitchens were "neutra labs," and laundry rooms were "fiber labs." Whether members were cooking or cleaning, they acted like they were in a laboratory on a spaceship. All of their actions were methodical and precise. This wasn't just

• 10:10Vanessa Richardson?

  about a love of sci-fi either. Bonnie and Marshall believed that the next-level gods spoke prophecies through artists and other creatives on Earth. In other words, they didn't think shows like Star Trek or movies like Star Wars were fictional stories. They believed they were messages and doctrine from the gods.

• 10:31Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about how fictional stories can shape how people interpret the world. Stories provide symbols, language, and imagery that people use to make sense of their own lives. In the case of Bonnie and Marshall, a narrative about transformation or ascension mirrors their desire for change. A storyline about being chosen or awakened validates feelings of being different or misunderstood, and they have now also written their future, too. In private practice with therapy patients, not forensic work, I'll often ask a patient about their favorite book or movie. The hero's journey that they identify with in that book or that movie can tell me a lot. It tells me what resonates with them,

• 11:15Tristin Engels?

  what conflicts they're trying to resolve, or what kind of transformation they're seeking. It can be a very useful tool to elicit information that they might not yet have insight into. There's also something called narrative therapy. But the reality is, most people can enjoy fictional stories for what they offer while clearly separating fiction from reality. But when someone begins interpreting them as coded messages or literal prophecy, and they start integrating that language and symbolism into daily life, at that point, it becomes part of the belief system, which is what we're seeing here.

• 11:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Why is it that fictional ideas feel persuasive when they seem to explain personal struggles or unanswered questions that we may have? In your opinion, how did Bonnie and Marshall become so persuaded they believed that certain films and TV were actually messages from the gods?

• 12:09Tristin Engels?

  Well, stories are structured, and they organize chaos, and they give a clean narrative. They provide a beginning, they have a conflict, and a resolution. There's often themes about overcoming adversity and a character arc. Real life is often ambiguous and unresolved. Stories can give hope, a sense of control and direction. As for how Bonnie and Marshall became convinced that certain films or shows are literal messages, that usually reflects their shift in interpretation rather than the exposure to them. Lots of people consume science fiction. Very few of them interpret it the way that they are. Like we discussed in episode one, this can be explained by the fact that they have been operating

• 12:53Tristin Engels?

  within a closed belief system for a long time. That makes those beliefs self-reinforcing and rigid. At a certain point, though, the clinical question shifts. Obviously, I've never met either of them, so this is not a formal clinical opinion, and this is educational only. But I think it's highly possible that one or both of them struggled with depression, at the very least, Before meeting each other, they were both chronically dissatisfied. They were struggling internally, feeling empty in their lives for years before finding one another, and now we are here. Environments and people in them can exacerbate mental health conditions. When neutral media is interpreted as personal communication, and that interpretation is

• 13:38Tristin Engels?

  held with certainty like this, and then used to guide them in real-life decisions, that starts to look like referential thinking. And when two people are closely bonded and reinforcing those referential interpretations in isolation, it raises the possibility that the belief system is potentially delusional in nature. Shared psychosis, severe depression with psychosis, schizophrenia, all of those can be very real possibilities.

• 14:09Vanessa Richardson?

  Even though the group leaned into science fiction, there were still elements of Christianity throughout. And one of their core beliefs was that one day Bonnie and Marshall would be assassinated and resurrected, just like Jesus was. They had no idea there was a storm brewing, one that would put their prophecy to the ultimate test. In 1982, after seven years of honing her vision for the group known as human individual metamorphosis, 54-year-old Bonnie got sick. She was diagnosed with an aggressive form of liver cancer. By the following year, Bonnie's illness caused her to lose one of her eyes, and a doctor told her the cancer was likely spreading rapidly throughout her body.

• 14:53Vanessa Richardson?

  In other words, she didn't have much time left. Bonnie couldn't believe what she was hearing. She called the doctor ignorant. And when she left the hospital, she carried on with her life. She told Marshall and the rest of the group the news. However, Bonnie didn't tell any of her four children, who she'd abandoned after first meeting Marshall, that she had cancer. Then, she carried on, as if nothing was wrong.

• 15:18Tristin Engels?

  The stages of grief described by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross were originally based on interviews with terminally ill patients that were coping with their own mortality. The model was later adapted and applied more broadly to other forms of loss. Denial is the first stage of grief, and therefore, it's a very common early reaction to something like a serious life-threatening medical diagnosis. It's protective. It allows someone to absorb the shock of the news gradually rather than all at once. In Bonnie's case, though, she had constructed a belief system in which she and Marshall were non-human beings who would ultimately be resurrected and transformed. A terminal diagnosis directly contradicts that belief

• 16:03Tristin Engels?

  and in turn threatens the very system they built and the authority it gave them. The fact that she dismissed the doctor as ignorant and continued operating as if nothing was wrong, to me suggests that her denial was likely reinforced by that belief system. Accepting a diagnosis like this is hard enough for most people. Denial, like I said, typically the first reaction, but to her, it would also mean restructuring her identity in the belief system. It also could potentially suggest a delusional process, but it's difficult to determine in a situation like this. Rigid beliefs, especially when someone is facing a life-threatening diagnosis, can resemble delusion. The challenge here is that she didn't have much time to observe whether the belief softens,

• 16:48Tristin Engels?

  whether she integrates new information, or if it remains completely fixed. So while her response raises clinical questions, we can't really separate acute denial from a delusional belief.

• 17:01Vanessa Richardson?

  It was a defining moment for Bonnie and Marshall. After spending so much time preaching that they were special extraterrestrial beings, Bonnie was having a uniquely human experience.

• 17:14Vanessa Richardson?

  And despite her insistence that she and Marshall were immune from the plights of mere mortals, nature still took its course. After holding on for three years, Bonnie passed away in 1985. She was 57 years old. According to Marshall, she'd passed peacefully in her sleep. Bonnie's death changed everything. Without her, 54-year-old Marshall became the group's one and only leader. And he was prepared to put his crew members to the ultimate test, one the world would never forget.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold. From A and E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series, The First Forty-Eight. Step inside the critical window, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open. I'm Carter Roy. Each week, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation with the depth you know and immersive, long-form storytelling built for your ears. Real detectives,

• 18:35Speaker 01

  real cases, real stakes. This is The First Forty-Eight. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to and follow The First Forty-Eight on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 18:58Vanessa Richardson?

  In 1985, Bonnie Lou Nettles passed away at age 57 of liver cancer. Her partner, 54-year-old Marshall Applewhite, was utterly crushed. Bonnie was his best friend, soulmate, and fellow wanderer. Not only that, she was the spiritual heart of their cult, which at the time was called Human Individual Metamorphosis. Marshall had the charm and charisma to attract new members, but most of their doctrines and religious practices had come from Bonnie. But the problem ran deeper than that. Bonnie and Marshall had told everyone they'd be assassinated and then rise from the dead, and only then would the UFO come to save them and their followers. Bonnie's death undermined all of that.

• 19:42Vanessa Richardson?

  There was no assassination, just an ordinary death from a tragic disease, and no resurrection either. Reeling with grief and confusion, Marshall started questioning everything. He wondered if he and Bonnie had been wrong all along. One day, he even asked a group of his most trusted followers if he was crazy and should just send everyone home. But those followers didn't want to leave. So instead, Marshall went off alone to try and hear the next-level gods speaking to him. He and Bonnie had often told their followers when they received updates or other prophecies from the gods, and Marshall needed a message now more than ever.

• 20:25Vanessa Richardson?

  When he returned, he told the group something astonishing. Marshall claimed that Bonnie's human form, like everyone else's, was just a vehicle. It was a temporary shell that she'd discarded when she no longer needed it, which meant Bonnie wasn't dead at all. She'd simply graduated to a higher plane of existence.

• 20:48Tristin Engels?

  Unexpected events are the greatest threat to leaders like Marshall, and it happens to almost every single one. Historically, the leader makes some kind of prophetic or apocalyptic prediction that doesn't come true, or they have a dissenter who exposes them somehow. And they typically respond by adapting, just like Marshall did here. They change the meaning, not the belief. That protects the structure of the system and maintains their authority. Bonnie's death directly contradicted their prophecy, so he adapted by reinterpreting it, the same way he adapted by reinterpreting traditional religious beliefs.

• 21:28Tristin Engels?

  That reduces cognitive dissonance for himself and the group. It allows everyone to believe that the prophecy is not a failure, but it's just been fulfilled in a different way. It also stabilizes his authority by keeping his theology intact with the next level ideology. And it's reframing grief, too, because in moments of crisis like this, control is maintained by controlling the meaning of the loss as well.

• 21:57Vanessa Richardson?

  Could it be that maybe his need for belonging might factor into his evolving theology?

• 22:02Tristin Engels?

  Excellent question, because I do think it factors in. Remember, language matters, especially in closed systems like this. And we talked about this in episode one a little bit, but it's worth revisiting. Bonnie and Marshall called themselves the Two Witnesses, and they went by the Two. That alone suggests a shared identity, not just a partnership. Now, Marshall had consistently built his identity around belonging to something larger, first with the church and then the movement he created with Bonnie. It's very possible that belonging was a central psychological need for him. Losing Bonnie wasn't just losing a partner. It was losing a stabilizer in his identity and belief system.

• 22:44Tristin Engels?

  Maintaining the group and even intensifying the theology may have helped him preserve that sense of connection. Because if he lost the group as well after losing Bonnie, he risks returning to that earlier feeling of being empty and alienated he had been trying to escape from for so long. There's also something structurally important happening here. With Bonnie gone, there's no longer a shared leadership model anymore. He becomes the sole interpreter of their entire belief system and their doctrine. There's no internal equal to challenge or refine their entire ideas. That consolidates authority and centralizes power. And in tightly controlled systems or cults,

• 23:29Tristin Engels?

  that often leads to increased rigidity and greater dependence on one particular leader.

• 23:35Vanessa Richardson?

  For some, Marshall's news was a miracle. To others, it was too good to be true. A few of Marshall's followers abandoned him. But the ones who remained took Bonnie's death as a sign they should work harder to join her in the next realm. That included showing their commitment to the guidelines she'd set forth. After she passed, some male members, including Marshall, took their vow of abstinence to the next level and were surgically castrated. If Bonnie were alive, she might have talked him out of it. But now, he was the only captain aboard a ship lost at sea. So as the years went by, Marshall's teachings grew darker and more apocalyptic. He preached that the Earth was corrupt

• 24:20Vanessa Richardson?

  and under siege by Luciferian forces, evil aliens bent on keeping humans trapped in their flawed, mortal state.

• 24:29Tristin Engels?

  And there is that increased rigidity in centralized power showing. Wow. When belief systems intensify like this, you often see in-group and out-group biases become more pronounced. In-group bias is the tendency to favor, protect, and elevate those within your group while viewing outsiders with suspicion or hostility. In Marshall's case, labeling external forces as Luciferian creates the in-group-out-group dynamic. He's setting a clear boundary. We're enlightened, they are corrupt. We are evolving, they're trapped. That strengthens cohesion and group identity and makes people afraid of being part of the out-group.

• 25:12Tristin Engels?

  And if someone questions the teachings or leaves the group, that behavior can be framed as influence from the corrupt outside world rather than a flaw from inside the group itself. And the more threatening the out-group appears, the more protective and unified the in-group becomes. And they become more afraid to leave. That dynamic can escalate because it frames, again, the outside world as dangerous.

• 25:40Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, for the remaining followers, the only path to salvation lay through Marshall. He claimed he received messages from Bonnie, who in her ascended state was now synonymous with God. With her guidance, the group moved from Wyoming to New Mexico and then to Rancho Santa Fe, California. But Marshall's message was losing its appeal. At this point in the early 1990s, he'd started to preach that he wasn't just a prophet like Jesus Christ, he was Jesus. As for Bonnie, well, she was actually God, and she was waiting for Marshall and the others in heaven. For many of Marshall's followers, this latest version of events was a bridge too far.

• 26:22Vanessa Richardson?

  And just like those who jumped ship shortly after Bonnie's death, they left the group. With each passing day, the number of members dwindled. And by 1992 or 1993, there were just a few dozen left. Marshall tried to stem the bleeding with occasional outreach. First, he mailed a booklet with information about the group to various New Age centers. Then he produced a series of satellite TV broadcasts sharing their message. And finally, he placed a large ad in USA Today on May 27, 1993.

• 26:57Tristin Engels?

  So this is a contrast. Earlier, when members left and Bonnie was still alive, it actually strengthened the system because fewer people meant it was easier to control them and it confirmed loyalty. It also centralized authority and reduced dissent. But now the dynamic is different because Bonnie is gone. The leadership structure has shifted from a shared model to a single authority. That makes the system more fragile. There's no equal to buffer doubt or reinterpret challenges with him and maintain the control. So now, any loss threatens the sustainability of the group, which is why I think recruitment is more urgent when it wasn't previously.

• 27:38Tristin Engels?

  But at the same time, the belief system has become more extreme, and the ability to recruit new people actually decreases, and that creates pressure. Without Bonnie, without growth, and with this increasing grandiosity Marshall is showing, the system isn't stabilizing the way it was before. And it now requires new members to survive. But at the same time, it's going to be a lot harder to gain new members.

• 28:05Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think Marshall's search for new members, new followers, could be at all connected to his grief?

• 28:11Tristin Engels?

  I think that's a really reasonable consideration because grief can disrupt a person's sense of identity, especially when the person who died was central to their sense of purpose and belonging. Bonnie was his co-leader and part of how he understood himself. When someone experiences that kind of loss, they often try to restore structure. For Marshall, continuing to recruit and expand the group may have been, at least in part, his way of doing that or his way of keeping her legacy alive. Grief can also intensify conviction, and we have certainly seen that happening.

• 28:48Vanessa Richardson?

  Marshall's efforts seemed to pay off. Before long, he had a few new recruits, including a woman named Gail Mader. Originally from New York, 21-year-old Gail had always wanted to be a fashion designer. Eventually, she decided to open up her own store, selling knickknacks and tie-dyed clothes. Her dad, Robert, helped fund the venture, but Gail didn't hold up her end of the bargain. Before long, she'd abandoned the shop and joined the new group. It would be several years before her parents heard from her again. And despite gaining a couple of fresh faces, 62-year-old Marshall knew the group was failing. They were running out of money and had to sell off the few belongings they had. They even slept in a warehouse for a while.

• 29:32Vanessa Richardson?

  By the fall of 1994, Marshall was running out of steam. He saw the end approaching and decided he had one last chance. It was time to get on board the spaceship and take as many people as he could with him.

• 29:58Vanessa Richardson?

  Did you know the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  For years may never have actually killed anyone, or that the real golden age of pirates was the most democratic workplace in the Western world. I'm Connor Tomlinson from Love on the Spectrum, and history is my thing. And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, we take the most unbelievable true things in history and tell you the whole story behind them. Carter sets the scene. Connor brings the facts, the deep cuts, and the genuine belief that this is the most interesting subject in the world. It is. This is the history lesson you actually wished you had in high school. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 30:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Happy Halloween, Crime House listeners. I'm Vanessa Richardson. Did you know horror films like Abigail and Sinister were based on true stories? Join me every Sunday this month on Crime House 24/7 for Crime House of Horrors, where I dive into four stories behind some of our favorite scary movies. From Abigail, The Autopsy of Jane Doe, Sinister, and The Taking of Deborah Logan, you'll find one thing in common: the truth is scarier than fiction. Listen every Sunday on Crime House 24/7, or join Crime House Plus for all four right now, ad-free. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or at crimehouseplus.com.

• 31:39Vanessa Richardson?

  By the fall of 1994, 62-year-old Marshall Applewhite was tired of working so hard to spread his message. Marshall felt he'd done everything in his power to recruit followers he could guide to the next level. So, that September, he made an announcement that sent shockwaves through the group. He claimed the time was coming for them to leave Earth, which meant they needed to abandon their human bodies entirely. Two members walked out right then and there, but the rest, about 36 in total, stayed. By that point, they already considered themselves more alien than human. They believed that after death,

• 32:20Vanessa Richardson?

  they would evolve and join Bonnie in the next level. All they needed now was for Marshall to give the sign it was time to leave. That sign came in July 1995, when two amateur astronomers, Alan Hale and Thomas Bopp, discovered a comet in the night sky. The so-called Hale-Bopp Comet would spend a year passing by Earth, reaching its closest point on March 22, 1997.

• 32:49Tristin Engels?

  Let's talk about the psychology of signs. Humans are pattern-seeking. We're wired to look for meaning, especially if things feel uncertain. Signs are powerful because they reduce that. For example, if someone's waiting for direction, a cosmic event like a comet can feel like confirmation rather than coincidence. A belief in signs often reflects a need for clarity, and interpreting an event as meaningful can lower anxiety. It can also provide intention and guidance. Most people occasionally interpret things symbolically. I think that's normal. I think we've all done that. The difference is flexibility. If it's viewed as something that's also open to alternative explanations,

• 33:33Tristin Engels?

  I think that's when it's healthy. The problem here, though, is that Marshall and his group are already primed with certain apocalyptic or cosmic expectations. So a rare astronomical event can easily become more meaningful, almost like an illusory correlation or epiphenia, which is the tendency to perceive meaningful patterns in random unrelated events. And in a group, if a leader frames it that way, the event takes on shared meaning, making it much more meaningful.

• 34:07Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, the comet itself wasn't what got Marshall's attention. It was what came next. On November 14, 1996, a popular AM radio show called Coast to Coast with Art Bell hosted a special guest with big news about the comet. The show was known for hosting a who's who of conspiracy theorists, alien abductees, and paranormal investigators. For much of America, Art's radio show was just late-night entertainment. But for Marshall and his group, who had since changed their name to Heaven's Gate, it was practically gospel. That night, Art interviewed an amateur astronomer named Chuck Schrammick, who claimed to have spotted an enormous object trailing the comet.

• 34:51Vanessa Richardson?

  Schrammick had a photo that supposedly confirmed this.

• 34:55Vanessa Richardson?

  The next night, a political science professor named Courtney Brown called in with an even more extraordinary claim. Brown had founded a company specializing in something called "remote viewing," which is a paranormal ability that supposedly allows people to project their consciousness to other places and see things they wouldn't be able to otherwise. Brown said three of his remote viewers had visited the object traveling with the comet. They told him that it was a large, climate-controlled hollow capsule. In other words, an alien spacecraft. While many dismissed Brown's claims as outlandish, some ufologists and conspiracy theorists, including members of Heaven's Gate, hung on his every word.

• 35:40Vanessa Richardson?

  Marshall himself was enthralled by the comet as it swirled and twisted its way towards Earth. The whole world was tracking its approach, and by January 1997, you could see it with the naked eye. Marshall sensed there was something special about this comet, so he did some kind of astrological reading. His results connected this comet with another comet that had approached in 1973, the year he and Bonnie became the two witnesses. Marshall was looking for a sign, and God, or Bonnie, had delivered.

• 36:18Tristin Engels?

  If we consider everything we've covered up to this point, we can see a convergence of factors that likely led Marshall here. He'd already had a worldview that interprets events as purposeful and directed. Then there's his grief, which likely intensified his need for reassurance. Bonnie's death destabilized the system, so interpreting the comet as a sign from her preserves attachment and restores coherence within the group. He's also continued consuming media that validated and reinforced his interpretation of this event, and that just strengthens conviction and reduces doubt, especially when he's surrounded by people who reinforce his thinking. And finally, his beliefs had become increasingly rigid and grandiose.

• 37:04Tristin Engels?

  His capacity to consider alternative explanations appears greatly reduced. When rigidity reaches that level, especially when paired with ideas of reference, it again raises concern about the possibility of a clinical mental health condition interacting, at the very least, with these environmental and social factors.

• 37:26Vanessa Richardson?

  So you've explained more about what a belief in signs can imply about someone's psychology. What is your take on Marshall's belief that Bonnie was sending him signs? Is this a logical progression of his belief system? Or does he seem to be following a more unpredictable route here?

• 37:42Tristin Engels?

  When you look at the trajectory of his belief system, I think it appears more like a logical progression, especially with everything we know about cults. He had already established that he and Bonnie were divinely appointed. After her death, he reframed her as having ascended. If she is now synonymous with God or the next level, that fits within the framework he had already built. All of this is internally consistent with what he had been teaching. That doesn't mean it's grounded in reality, but it is coherent within his system. If this were unpredictable or disorganized, we would expect sudden inconsistent shifts that contradict earlier beliefs. Instead, what we see, I think, is escalation,

• 38:27Tristin Engels?

  which is common in closed belief systems, especially when leaders experience unexpected events or feel that their authority is threatened. As we discussed earlier, ideological beliefs can become more rigid and more extreme, even more grandiose, under pressure. And that's why this is so complex. There are elements of grandiosity. There's elements of possible shared psychosis between him and Bonnie, and there's referential thinking. But psychologically, the belief system appears structured and consistent rather than random. There's no clear evidence that I can see, just based on what we've been talking about, of disorganized thinking. He may hold bizarre beliefs, but he remains coherent.

• 39:11Tristin Engels?

  He's able to recruit people. He maintains loyal ...within the group to at least a degree enough to sustain it. He delivers organized lectures and he conducts outreach. To me, that suggests a level of intact thought process. At the same time, someone can have a delusional disorder without the broader features of disorganized psychosis and still appear highly organized. So coherence alone doesn't rule that out, but I think all of this is why it seems so unpredictable to some people. But I do think that overall, it is more of a logical progression.

• 39:49Vanessa Richardson?

  For Marshall, it was all coming together. He became convinced that the spaceship supposedly traveling beside the comet was the UFO he'd been waiting for. If he and his followers were going to ascend to space and meet Bonnie in heaven, they had to seize this opportunity. On the heels of this revelation, Marshall announced to the group that their departure was at hand. He and his 38 crew members would leave Earth on March 22, 1997, as the comet reached its closest point. In early 1997, the group began their preparations with meticulous precision. Each member received a black tracksuit, brand-new Nike sneakers, and an armband embroidered

• 40:33Vanessa Richardson?

  with the phrase "Heaven's Gate Away Team." This was both a nod to Star Trek and to prepare them to continue their mission once they got to heaven, which, again, they believed was a physical place in outer space.

• 40:46Tristin Engels?

  This is a bit contradictory, since I thought part of the doctrine was to get rid of earthly possessions, whereas now, he's actually giving them more earthly possessions in order to prepare for their departure.

• 40:59Vanessa Richardson?

  So true. While their final weeks were spent tying up loose ends, they returned library books and spent the last of their money on a rented mansion just outside San Diego. Then they recorded farewell messages. These videos were filled with serene goodbyes and heartfelt gratitude for their time on Earth. They refer to their impending suicides not as deaths, but as an exit, a graduation from their flawed human existence to the next level. Notably, many people's statements matched exactly what Marshall had said in his earlier TV broadcasts and other recordings.

• 41:38Tristin Engels?

  The thing that stands out most to me is that the group members' statements in those videos closely matched what Marshall had said earlier. I think that suggests there's repetition, rehearsal, and internalization. They didn't call it suicide, they called it an exit. And that takes us back to the importance of language in closed systems again. Repeated language shapes thinking. If you redefine death for years and call it a transition, or a graduation, or an exit, then the death no longer carries the same psychological meaning, nor does the act of taking your life. In this case, language helped to construct a new reality for them, even if it wasn't in fact, realistic. There's also identity fusion happening.

• 42:23Tristin Engels?

  Like, we've talked about, they've given up their entire lives, their families and their jobs. They've undergone countless loyalty tests. Leaving now would have been abandoning the purpose they've built their entire identity around and the salvation they believed they had earned. And this is where coercion becomes more complex. Yes, they made the choice to do this. There's no evidence of physical force or threat, but choice does exist on a spectrum. When someone has spent years in an isolated system where language, belief, identity, and community are tightly controlled like this, their perception of alternatives is constrained too.

• 43:05Tristin Engels?

  So while the act was voluntary for sure, the psychological environment leading up to it certainly narrowed their understanding of what that choice truly meant. And that's referred to as bounded choice.

• 43:17Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think Marshall and his followers may have been using these goodbye, farewell videos as a way to achieve some form of immortality here on earth? And if so, could that suggest a level of doubt in their beliefs?

• 43:30Tristin Engels?

  I suppose it's possible. Leaving behind recorded messages definitely ensures they would be remembered. But even without those messages, I doubt they'd be forgotten. This was something that affected so many families and communities, and it's been decades since it took place. And here we are today, talking about it. So I don't think that was the primary motivation for everyone involved. This feels more driven by Marshall to me. And given the grandiosity we've already discussed, narrative control seems central to this. I think the recordings preserve his teachings and belief on his terms. They frame the act as rational and spiritually meaningful. That protects his legacy.

• 44:13Tristin Engels?

  Also, having each member restate the belief on camera like that reinforces commitment at the final hour. It reduces any opportunity for doubt. Having them publicly articulate it like this in a rehearsed and unified way, he's making sure they're invested to the very end. I think the videos primarily function as image management, legacy preservation, and final consolidation of control. He also clearly did not stop to consider the impact that this would have on the loved ones of each member, though. That, I can't imagine, that had to have been truly disorienting and devastating for them to see.

• 44:57Vanessa Richardson?

  The group wanted the videos to reach the public as soon as possible. Marshall arranged for these exit videos to be mailed to some of his former followers so they could tell the world what happened. He knew most people would never understand. But Marshall probably hoped that a few would hear his message and follow in their own time. The tragic event itself began on March 22, 1997, and unfolded over the next three days. Marshall and his followers consumed a lethal combination of barbiturates and vodka, dying in shifts so that those who remained could arrange their bodies with care. Each was draped with a purple shroud, their clothes and other belongings packed neatly beside them.

• 45:41Vanessa Richardson?

  65-year-old Marshall was among the last to go, his body stretched peacefully on his bed, dressed just like the others. They sat undisturbed for days. It wasn't until an ex-member received one of Marshall's farewell packages that anyone knew what had happened. He arrived at the mansion on March 26th and immediately called 911. The media frenzy was immediate. With 39 people dead, it was the biggest mass suicide in American history. As soon as the identities of the deceased were known, reporters banged on the families' doors for interviews. This only exacerbated the grief felt by people like Robert Mader, who was already devastated.

• 46:26Vanessa Richardson?

  His 27-year-old daughter, Gail, had once dreamed of being a fashion designer. Now she'd been destroyed by a religion he couldn't understand. Besides Gail, the youngest victim was 25-year-old Michael Bar Sando. He was a former paratrooper from Virginia, whose family had no idea he was in a cult until they saw the news of his suicide. Other members had told their families about Heaven's Gate. 63-year-old Lucy Ava Pecho and 42-year-old Cheryl Butcher, both IT professionals, were in contact with their loved ones. And in the years leading up to their deaths, they insisted they were healthy and happy.

• 47:08Vanessa Richardson?

  The remaining victims came from a variety of backgrounds, including the arts, medicine, and media. But they were all united by a desire for community, purpose, and greater meaning. And Marshall Applewhite took advantage of that in the most terrible way possible. In the decades since the Heaven's Gate tragedy, there have been dozens of books, movies, and documentaries, all seeking to understand what happened and why.

• 47:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Cults like Heaven's Gate live on in the public imagination because, at first glance, they just seem so strange. After all, how could anyone believe that Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Lou Nettles were messengers like Jesus? That they'd find paradise on a UFO? Were they charmed, drugged, or brainwashed? And why would they go to such extreme lengths just to prove their faith? In asking the question, the answer should already feel less strange. Ordinary people die and kill for their beliefs all the time. And sadly, this kind of emotional manipulation didn't end with Heaven's Gate.

• 48:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer. Thanks again to Alexis Linkletter and Jac Vanek of the First Degree Podcast for joining us. Remember to stick around for their extended conversation with Dr. Engels, coming up next.

• 48:51Tristin Engels?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at @CrimeHouse. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 49:14Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content.

• 49:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Laurie Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Sarah Bachelor, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 50:04Tristin Engels?

  Thanks so much again for listening to today's episode. As promised, Jack, Alexis and I are going to discuss the case a little bit more in depth and get into why Heaven's Gate is one of those cases that we still can't get out of our heads. All right, Alexis, Jack, let's dive in. What questions do you have about Heaven's Gate?

• 50:23Speaker 03

  I think the biggest, like, big, big picture question is obviously what drives somebody to build and escalate a cult? We see it all of the time, kind of done in different ways, but what do you think it is?

• 50:35Tristin Engels?

  Common psychological traits in cult leaders include a deep need for significance, difficulty tolerating rejection, very rigid thinking, and an identity that's tied to being chosen or uniquely enlightened. And when that identity is challenged, belief systems often harden rather than soften. Building a following can reinforce that identity, and it provides validation, but it also provides authority and control. And that is something that counteracts some deep insecurities of their own.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  And you kind of mentioned that when identity is challenged, the belief systems often harden rather than collapse. I thought that was really interesting because I think that's kind of what happened when Bonnie died, and that's sort of when Marshall Applewhite kind of changed course a little bit, and then also kind of doubled down on everything.

• 51:30Tristin Engels?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but he kind of had to, if you think about it, because Bonnie was dying from a very uniquely human disease. And he was getting his followers to believe that they were prophets, but not only prophets, they were non-human. But she was having a very human experience. So he has to kind of double down, but also he had to reframe the narrative to get his followers to continue to have a psychological buy-in to the cult belief in order to keep his control over his following. If he's lost his co-conspirator, so to speak, he's the only now authority controlling the following, he kind of needs

• 52:12Tristin Engels?

  to double down in order to keep not just the control, but keep his own identity intact. And that, that explains a lot as to why we saw such an escalation, not just in, you know, how he was controlling his following, but just in his grandiosity, too. We saw a huge increase in that as well after Bonnie passed.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Are all cult leaders narcissists?

• 52:34Tristin Engels?

  Generally, somebody who is driven to start a movement or a cult, like we talked about, they're seeking that need for power, control, admiration, validation, and belonging. They're often driven by narcissistic or psychopathic traits. Leaders often have charismatic traits and use manipulation. They use deception and coercive control. And they prey on vulnerable individuals who often lack self-esteem and are seeking belonging or community of their own. So historically, when we look back, most cult leaders do have, at the very least, traits of narcissism. Obviously, I can't diagnose them. I haven't seen them or met them personally, but they do often have, at the very least, traits of that.

• 53:20Speaker 03

  I think it's really interesting, especially in this case, obviously, you have Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie that are both the cult leaders. But it kind of seems like Bonnie was the one that was sort of taking charge in the beginning, at least, and sort of pushing the beliefs on Marshall Applewhite a little bit. I just thought that that dynamic has to be so unique when it comes to cults, right?

• 53:45Tristin Engels?

  They got people, so Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell, I don't know if they classify technically as cult leaders, but they were selling and promoting and like heading in that direction. And they were working together, but they were also romantically involved, whereas these two were not. There was no romantic involvement there. There is co-offender dynamics that were happening there, which is, you know, very interesting as well, because we haven't seen that, like with Charles Manson. Charles was the head of the family. But there was also rules regarding sexual intimacy with Charles as well. He also used that as a control tactic in the same way, but in a reverse way. But he still used that as a control tactic.

• 54:29Tristin Engels?

  But yeah, I mean, I can't think of other offhand, and I haven't done any research thoroughly on that, but can't think of other cults offhand that had had. Two leaders.

• 54:40Speaker 03

  Obviously, it's like, it seems to me at least that they really believed their own ideas. Like, it seemed like when Marshall Applewhite and the rest of Heaven's Gate took their own lives, like, it seemed like they truly believed that that's what was happening. What do you think?

• 54:55Tristin Engels?

  There's usually a mixture, and from what I've experienced, there's commonly some level of self-delusion, where they genuinely believe that they're prophets or messias. But at the same time, like we talked about, they have narcissistic traits, psychopathic traits. They have a desire for power, control, and admiration. They're often charming and charismatic, and they use those traits to gain influence strategically. And if you really look at most cult leaders and their behaviors, those behaviors evolve over time. They continue to escalate, they shift their tactics, because they're consistently trying to ensure control over their followers. We see that happening through these episodes with Marshall Applewhite, especially after

• 55:40Tristin Engels?

  Bonnie died. We see major shifts in his control tactics over his followers. So, there's a mixture, I think, of both. There's part self-delusion, but I think there's also part awareness as well. I don't think it's fair to say that it's all full delusion. I don't think, clinically, that it's always just completely, they're completely delusional, that there's magical thinking, that they're in the psychotic sense. I don't necessarily think that Marshall Applewhite, I know there's been some theories that he had maybe schizophrenia or some kind of psychosis, I don't necessarily think that's the case. And the reason why I don't think that's the case is because he was able to organize, he was able to recruit, he was able to hold lectures, he was able to maintain a following,

• 56:25Tristin Engels?

  he was able to organize those speeches. He had a lot of just organized behaviors, behaviors that you wouldn't see if there really truly was a schizophrenia process at the same time. So, I think there's some self-delusion, but not necessarily in the clinical sense. I think it's more like, I need to believe this, I have to own this in order to get others to believe it too. It's almost like, don't trust a skinny chef, right? You know, like, I have to believe it to get you to believe it. And a lot of them, not all, obviously, there's outliers, but it's a mixture of both, I'd say.

• 56:59Speaker 03

  So, they're at this intersection of, you know, delusion and deliberate harm.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  If they were more delusional, like, what would that mean in terms of their culpability? And like malice here, like, are there cult leaders, and you might not know the answer to this, but that are fully delusional and just truly believe what they're selling? Have you seen that before? Because I don't know that I have.

• 57:25Tristin Engels?

  Maybe they exist. I can't think of any off the top of my head. But like, let's say they truly are delusional, like, okay, Charles Manson's a great example, right? He still was found legally responsible, even though he didn't kill anybody, right? He was still found culpable for his part in what happened. And he was still sentenced. The requirements, like, if you're talking about culpability, right, you're talking about like, if they're, if they have delusional disorder or a psychotic disorder with very prominent delusions, then when it comes to criminal proceedings, they're going to look at that and say, okay, did you understand what you were doing at the time of the crime? Well, a cult leader, it's not just one event.

• 58:08Tristin Engels?

  It's a series of events over a long period of time. We're talking about a growing series of events, right? So it's going to be very difficult to prove in a courtroom that they were not aware of what they were doing would lead to something like this, or that they had no understanding of right and wrong. Because it's not one event, it's a series of events over a prolonged period of time. It's already extremely difficult to prove somebody is insane in a court of law. I think a lot of people have a misconception about that. I think it's like, less than 2% of insanity cases are actually proven in a courtroom. It's very, very difficult to prove. I do those evaluations.

• 58:49Tristin Engels?

  And very, very few have ever been found to have, in the trial of fact, have been found to have been not guilty by reason of insanity, very, very few. Even if my expert opinion was that they were insane at the time of the crime. Even in a courtroom decides, not me, the jury, the jury decides, even in, you know, in contrast to my opinion, and independent of my opinion. So it's very, very difficult to prove. In cult cases, it's going to be even more difficult to prove because there's not just one event, there's a whole history of events, a whole history of strategic deception, of influence, of power, of manipulation, of coercive control, leading up to potential

• 59:31Tristin Engels?

  criminal behavior. It's very hard to prove culpability.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  And to your earlier point, fully delusional people don't necessarily possess the skills to charm potential followers, to organize a group, you know, all the things that go into that. That's not, fully delusional people might not be able to do that.

• 59:51Tristin Engels?

  We're talking about too, like, I'm talking more like schizophrenia, because with schizophrenia, you're going to have what's called negative symptoms, where they don't have organized behavior or goal-directed behavior. People can have a delusional disorder alone without all of those other symptoms that come with schizophrenia, and they can have non-bizarre delusions, and they can be organized. But there's still going to be people that are going to encounter them and go, hmm, something doesn't seem right, right? And they're still going to be put off by that, or they're going to raise flags, you know, within the communities, or they're going to come on someone's radar a lot quicker, generally. But yes, you're right. It would have come up a lot quicker, I would say.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  And again, they live the 20 years. I don't think they come up, came out on anybody's radar.

• 1:00:34Tristin Engels?

  No.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Like, even after the mass suicide, it was like, they're like, yeah, we never saw them, or we waved to one of them in the backyard once, and then that was it.

• 1:00:46Tristin Engels?

  Even when he wins, they were sending, him and Bonnie were sending them out to recruit, right? And they were going on the news to like, find their way back, if you remember that in the episodes. Even then, they weren't really causing concern. Because, I mean, do you think, when you see somebody on the side of the street who's, you know, sharing their belief system, you know, with a megaphone? Do you think anything of that? Or do you just carry on with your business? Right? That's their belief. Okay, moving on. So it's kind of like that, especially back then.

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  I would love to ask a couple of questions about how group identity in these cults can override survival instinct. Like, how does that happen?

• 1:01:29Tristin Engels?

  I think one of the most difficult things for people to understand about Heaven's Gate is this exact question. Because it's, how does group identity override basic instinct for survival? And how are people willing to take their own lives for it? Because as humans, we're wired for survival. But our survival instinct is complex. Under normal conditions, a threat cue activates our fear circuits. But the responses are shaped by our interpretation of that threat. So these members' identities had been fused with a group for, in some cases, decades, right? And because of that, they were focused on protecting meaning, belonging, and purpose. And the group had been teaching them

• 1:02:12Tristin Engels?

  that ascending, or taking their lives, is succeeding. Not the end of something, it's the success of something. And staying behind meant failing the mission and failing the group. So they've been long interpreting that these teachings are necessary, they're safe, and they're even rewarding. So they have been surviving, quite literally and psychologically, as a unit. And when they're told that they had to take their lives, their threat response isn't going to interpret that with fear the way yours or mine would. They didn't see that as dangerous or unsafe. They saw it as necessary or even rewarding, because that's what they'd been taught for decades. That's the power of group identity. And that's why it can override your survival instinct,

• 1:02:56Tristin Engels?

  because it didn't even get activated in the first place.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  Well, and it's so interesting when you watch those videos, they are so like, because everybody had their like farewell videos and everybody seemed so calm and even excited in the videos. And it was so interesting. And I actually, before this episode, Heaven's Gate dot com is still available and still up and being run by, I think, two of the surviving members. And they have a whole section on their website about suicide and how they're very against suicide. And they have their whole explanation about it, about, you know, the graduation and ascending and, and that, which is just, it's so interesting because it kind of goes along with everything that you're saying.

• 1:03:39Tristin Engels?

  So they don't feel that it was suicide? Is that what they're saying on their website?

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like there, it's a section where it's like, we're very anti-suicide. This wasn't a suicide.

• 1:03:51Tristin Engels?

  Well, I mean, legally and medically, it is suicide. Psychologically, it can feel more complex, at least to them, because, I mean, research consistently shows that suicide is driven by acute distress, by depression, hopelessness, helplessness, worthlessness, a desire to escape or end emotional pain. And here, we don't really see that, because, I mean, they may have felt those things in their lives that drew them into this group initially, but from what they shared, they had renewed hope. They felt worthy or chosen just based on their beliefs and their doctrine. And what happened that day was structured and it was ritualized. They also didn't even call it a suicide. They called it like a

• 1:04:35Tristin Engels?

  transition or an exit. And just based on their own statements, again, like you mentioned, they viewed it not as an end of life at all. That doesn't mean that they weren't vulnerable or impaired, because they were in terms of cognitive and social conditioning. But the difference really is what drove them there. And that was shared belief. In cases like these, researchers describe it more as cult-related suicide. And that's because the behavior is self-inflicted, but the meaning behind it is radically different than traditional suicide.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  You talked about sort of this overriding of survival instinct.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  What kind of ingratiation are we talking about in terms of that rewiring taking place? And I know everybody's going to be different, right? But like, how immersed do these people need to be in this belief as far as like exposure? And what kind of control or what they're consuming? Like, how long might something like that take?

• 1:05:35Tristin Engels?

  I mean, it depends on each person. It's, I wish it was really as simple as like one answer. Obviously, it's a subjective experience. It's going to be different for everybody. But the more exposure you have to specific doctrines and beliefs, the more inoculation you have to the idea that something isn't a threat, then the more rewired your brain becomes in that regard. So we're talking about members who have been with Marshall Applewhite for decades, some for just a decade. But if every day they're being taught something, and if every day they're being taught to recite that same something, and even right

• 1:06:20Tristin Engels?

  before this mass suicide, or how a mass transition, as they like to call it, they even recited that same something before taking their lives. I mean, that right there, I mean, they're training their brain to believe that this is normal, that this is okay. So it depends on each person. But prolonged exposure to something can normalize it, and it can desensitize you to it.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  Does personality type come into account too of the cult members? Because, and I'm not talking about intelligence, because we know highly intelligent people can get sucked into cults. But do we see like pervasive personality type, like more passive or more, you know, submissive in these, these members?

• 1:07:09Tristin Engels?

  I would say that generally speaking, members attracted to cults are individuals who are more vulnerable, more subject to influence, who are seeking belonging, who have low self-esteem, who might have been retreating from poor home environments, and who, like you said, might have poor boundaries and might be a little bit more passive. They don't understand the line between what is care and what is abuse, and that's why they don't recognize coercive control when it's happening. So I would say those are the traits that most people who are attracted to cults generally possess, based on research. Thank you so much for the conversation. I've really enjoyed talking with both of you. I

• 1:07:53Tristin Engels?

  hope all of you listening enjoyed it as well. If you want more of Jack and Alexis's work, make sure to check out The First Degree. It's a fantastic podcast that dives deep into true crime cases through the voices of people directly connected to the story. And you can follow it wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:08:12Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having us.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

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• 1:09:14Vanessa Richardson?

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