Musical Epics, a Reincarnation of Sappho, and Kaos... Your Questions, My Answers

Liv answers listener questions about all things ancient and a handful of modern things that feature the ancient world... Submit your questions for future Q&A episodes and segments here mythsbaby.com/questions. CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

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• 2:08Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I am your host, Liv, who is recording in a brand-new room for the very first time and still trying to figure out how it's going to sound. Turns out, you can podcast for over eight years and still not entirely understand the recording equipment that you use. And so I don't entirely know how this is going to go, but it is a great first recording! So, I am here, again, recording for the first time, having moved to Toronto. My life is still very much up in the air.

• 2:49Liv Albert?

  Those of you who also have ADHD will understand how difficult it can be to get back into any kind of self-determined workload or creative space while you are in a home, you know, full of boxes with no determined placement for that work. Like, I don't know what it... I mean, I just... It is so hard to sit down and focus on creative stuff when you don't have, like, the set place where you've always been doing that. It's hilarious. Anyway, I am figuring it out, and I am first here with an incredibly late Q&A episode,

• 3:30Liv Albert?

  because I had intended to be able to do this before my move, so I didn't have to run so many re-airs over the past few weeks. But it just, you know, it turns out that moving across a country the size of Canada, where to drive, you know, during the almost winter, it took seven days, a handful of mountain ranges, some prairies, two full days driving in Ontario, because this province is so large. Also simultaneously, uh, doing all of that with two cats, uh, one of which is a lovely, poor anxious girl, uh, who I adopted this past summer, who's named Squid and I would

• 4:14Liv Albert?

  give her the world if I could, but she is utterly terrified of being picked up by humans. So, you know, driving her across the country, that was fun. Um, and then the other is the kitten that I have formally introduced on Instagram. So if you are not following me on Instagram, you probably need to check that out anyway, uh, because spoilers, a couple of months ago, I, I made a quick, a quick trip to Greece and I brought back a kitten, um, from a, uh, uh, house that I'd stayed at, uh, in the, earlier in the summer where I met a little pregnant cat and her boyfriend who, well, anyway, I went back to find one of the kittens.

• 4:55Liv Albert?

  His name is Anchovies, flipping adorable, uh, but that's a little secret-ish that I've been just keeping under my hat for the past little while until it was all sorted and I'm out here. Um, but that is all to say, hi, I'm here with a Q and A episode. Um, thanks so much for your patience while I did the move, um, listening to those re airs. I'm so lucky I was able to have those conversations, uh, that I recorded ahead of time, but I was not able to, to record this Q and A in the timely manner that I hoped for, but that's great. It's here now. And so it's going to help with my ADHD inability to write creatively in, uh, the current upheaval of my home. So that'll be for next week and I'm going to finish the Europe piece. I can't believe I still, I just never got to finish that episode.

• 5:38Liv Albert?

  Just, oh my God, it just, you know, it was a lot moving across the country. It wasn't originally supposed to happen so soon, but other things happened and they were great. And so now I'm here and it's exciting and I'm going to play catch up for the next couple of weeks. For now though, you all provided me with some of just always incredible questions to answer. So here we go.

• 6:16Liv Albert?

  Musical epics, reincarnations of Sappho and chaos. Your questions, my answers.

• 6:40Liv Albert?

  Well nerds, so I have so many questions from all of you guys and I've already kind of had another idea for some of them. So sometimes you all will send me like these really epic questions, not just about Epic the Musical, which I will address, but epic questions. And I'm trying to think of ways where I can address them in more direct and like I guess more often. And so I think I'm going to look into starting a new segment where I just answer even maybe one big question or something like that. So that's all to say that if you left me something like big and epic, you might hear it later because sometimes it's

• 7:24Liv Albert?

  hard for me to to read through like the really long messages on on an episode like this where I'm trying to get through so many. So all to say, more in the future. Basically, I've spent the last six months just having ideas and upon ideas upon ideas for for how I want to grow this show and and just like adapt it to to kind of make it work for for what I want to do now and and kind of how we're going to go forward. There's there's so much to come and more updates later. I'm going to stop trying. I'm going to try to stop rambling and actually get to your questions. And so let's start with the elephant in the room. Epic the Musical. This question is from Ander and they have a great question, but first I want to address.

• 8:10Liv Albert?

  That I have been asked this a great many times, a great many times, and I apologize, this answer is probably not going to be particularly satisfying, but it is an answer. And so if you are one of the many who have asked me this question, thank you. You can consider this a group answer via the question from Ander. Who said, "Have you heard of and/or listened to any of Epic the Musical? It's a retelling of the Odyssey in musical format, and it has been really cool to listen to as the different sagas are released. I know there are many inaccuracies, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it." I have not. I have not listened. So it's my attention span has a lot of trouble with musicals.

• 8:53Liv Albert?

  If I'm not like watching it live, like even, you know, ones that have been recorded in video, I just don't have the same connection. I actually love watching musicals in person, but without that, I just tend to not have that interest. I have heard Epic the Musical is awesome. You all seem to really love it, and I think that's so great. I'm sure it's really fun. And I'm just honestly with stuff like this all the time because just so much comes out all the time that I can't really keep up. Not least because unfortunately, it makes mythology a job when I have to kind of, you know, take in this content purely because people want me to talk about it. It just sort of, I don't know, I think it just like fights that ADHD brain in me that

• 9:35Liv Albert?

  more and more, I'm assuming is also an autism brain that where I just go like, oh, now I can't because everyone wants me to. So no, I haven't, but I have heard of it. I hear great things and I'm thrilled that there is just like another piece of pop culture that is bringing mythology to like anyone, but also particularly younger people and and just like this, I mean, the whole realm of the internet and how people can basically like become their own versions of these ancient Greek bards in the modern world. It's just, it's incredibly fun. Again, not a particularly satisfying answer, but it is my answer. And then we'll move on to Bree's question. Bree says, "Could the interpretation of the spheres on the statue of Artemis of Ephesus

• 10:20Liv Albert?

  as bull balls be tied to the fact that she had trans priests called Megabyzoi? Like sacrificing one's masculinity as a devotion to her with bulls being a stand-in? Like how even the cult of Kabele in Rome had bulls/rams as substitute sacrifices."

• 10:39Liv Albert?

  I wish I could answer this question with any kind of, I mean, like, I honestly don't really have a great grounding in the Artemis of Ephesus specifically, or the, you know, historical or archaeological theories on that stuff. I'm, you know, so deep into the written sources that I tend to not have the greatest grasp on, on the physical sources, like, like the Artemis of Ephesus. I do, you know, so to, to the listeners who don't know this one offhand, you might want to Google it. It's an incredible statue. There are lots of variations of it. So there's all these different versions that look quite similar. But the basic concept of the Artemis of Ephesus is that it's a version of Artemis,

• 11:24Liv Albert?

  who she's, you know, got very eastern qualities. She's coming from modern Turkey. And, and so she's, she's quite, not unique, but just different from the more standard Hellenic versions from, from Greece itself. You know, of course, Ephesus was, for a long time, a Greek colony. But just generally, she's very different and has those eastern influences. But what makes her particularly special, and what this listener Bree is referring to, is that the statue is covered in these like, round spherical, that's means the same thing, little like, protrusions off her body. And they're variously described as all just,

• 12:06Liv Albert?

  you know, hundreds of breasts, or like, Bree says, the bull's balls, or I had a past guest on the show describe them as beehives, which I also found to be really interesting. I don't know, I don't, I, I don't know about them being connected to the, the trans priests. I mean, I, I imagine that, that, that connection could be made. I know that the thing about the, the priests associated with Artemis, who were, you know, voluntarily castrated, and we now refer to as trans, you know, obviously, there's, there's a lot going on there. I won't try to say whether or not, you know, they were what we would.

• 12:48Liv Albert?

  Define as trans today, but it's a good term to describe them because the purpose was not, you know, some kind of punishment. The purpose was, um, yeah, to the, to sort of rid themselves of the masculinity and therefore, um, be able to, uh, to, you know, honor Artemis in that way as this goddess who doesn't really fuck with men. Um, and so, yeah, I don't, I don't know about the theories there. Personally, I just, I love, um, I mean, I love to wonder, I suppose, but I, I'm just so deep into the, the stories themselves. I wish I knew, um, I'm always looking out for more guests, uh, who can talk about stuff like that. But that is all to say, a very long way of saying, I really don't know, but it's a really interesting idea and, and so thank you for raising it.

• 13:34Liv Albert?

  All right. This is, uh, another question, um, that's come up a lot. And again, which I don't have a great answer to yet. Uh, this one is from Marcelina who said, I just binged Netflix's Chaos and I wanted to know what Liv's thoughts were on the show. I feel like it was an interesting and refreshing take on the myths. Ah, admission time. I've only seen the first episode of Chaos. I do want to watch more. I did enjoy it. Um, over the past few months, I've had trouble watching anything new just because of all of the things that have been going on. Um, like new stuff stresses me out. It's weird. Uh, and yeah, it, it, it's a lot. Um, but I, I do really want to watch it. So I hope to watch it soon. Again, like epic, honestly,

• 14:19Liv Albert?

  it's one of these things where it's really hard to, to watch it for fun because of how often I have been asked about it. And that's not like a dig. I know you all want to know. And I, I love that you ask me about it because it means that you think of me when you watch this stuff. It just then for me becomes a job to watch a TV show. And then my brain just like fights against it in this very bizarre way that I'm trying, that I'm working on. Um, but I, I did enjoy the first episode. I do want to keep watching more. Honestly, I never thought that show would actually come to light, like. Over on what used to be Twitter and fun, um, that it would like pop up like once a year for like four or five years. Like I've known about that show that it was like

• 15:03Liv Albert?

  in development in some way in Netflix for like honestly so many years, but and then it just kept like not ever happening. So it was really, I was surprised to see that it actually existed. Um, and I'm, I definitely, um, do want to watch it. And I'm also a little bitter because I did pitch myself, uh, to be, you know, associated with its promotion on Netflix and maybe we could have helped it get renewed. Instead, you know, it just kind of just popped out there for one season and, uh, and then they just promoted it all. Anyway, streaming is wild. Um, but I, I hope to watch it and I will definitely talk about it. I'm thinking maybe I'll talk to Michaela, um, about it or, or another guest. I just

• 15:46Liv Albert?

  need to have it be a discussion because otherwise I just kind of ramble at you guys about shows and stuff and it, anyway, I'm going to find a discussion to have about it. So thank you for asking.

• 15:58Liv Albert?

  This next question is from Connor and I am so interested in it. So Connor said, though almost certainly apocryphal, I wanted to know if you heard, if you've heard of Juanita Clivette, the quote, little Sappho of Greenwich Village in the 1920s. She was a six-year-old girl, a six-year-old girl who was apparently the reincarnation of Sappho and also wrote poems. I specifically wanted to get your thoughts on the apparent conversation in which Juanita states that she is waiting for her Fion to be reincarnated and never mentions loving women in her poems. Despite queer women flocking to the Isle of Lesbos

• 16:38Liv Albert?

  since the late 1800s, is Sappho's absence of queer writing a product of 1920s society? Or do you think her queer erasure continues today? Okay, this little Sappho of Greenwich Village seems absolutely fascinated, fascinating. I'd love to do some more digging in the future. For now, no, I hadn't, I hadn't heard of her. I mean, yeah, I don't, I don't want to say too much or too little about like, you know, a six year old girl. Cause I think in cases like that, like, I mean, again, I don't, I don't know the details, but like, it screams to me of someone else saying that she's the reincarnation of Sappho and also,

• 17:19Liv Albert?

  you know, maybe this is just, just me, but if Sappho was gonna come back, she wouldn't be going back to the States. But I will say that in terms of generally her queerness and queer erasure, I think that it has, I don't think it happens all that often today, or it might just be that I don't see it because obviously I don't go looking for a lot of writing on her by men who would probably do that. No, but I do think it does definitely still continue. There is still a debate about whether, you know, she did love women. There are lots, there are scholars who say that like, that she wrote

• 18:03Liv Albert?

  love poems on behalf of men, like about women. I think that is a stretch. Uh, I think, but she, cause there were also, you know, there were also love poems to men as well as women along with Sappho. And, uh, I mean minimally, I think, um, but I do, I mean, the thing about it is that, I mean, defining Sappho as, you know, officially a lesbian today is impossible. I think that it's really important to, uh, refer to her as queer and just, and discuss like what we do know about her writing, which is that she definitely, definitely did write love poems

• 18:48Liv Albert?

  for women. Um, and I think that those are some of her most valuable work and absolutely do.

• 18:56Liv Albert?

  I I don't believe that those poems were written for men to give to women. I do believe those poems were written by Sappho about a love of women um in, you know, a explicitly romantic, if not explicitly sexual way. Um, I absolutely say that Sappho was queer, at the very least. She was absolutely queer. And of course, what what interests me most is that like the word lesbian comes from her island of lesbos, um, you know, modern lesbos. And like that, the fact that that is a fact, and just also that like Sapphic explicitly now like refers to to women who love women and and, you know, variations

• 19:40Liv Albert?

  on that, like, it's, I think, absurd to suggest that she was straight. I think it's um broadly offensive. Um, so, you know, like, I I I think it definitely does still happen today, but to me, it's like so nonsensical, because like, we've already established like, all of these words based on her as a woman who loved women. Um, yeah, I don't know. It's so hard. It's so hard to talk about stuff like that as like a real person. I also think, I mean, Phion, if I recall, um, just to go back to that, you know, this idea that um,

• 20:20Liv Albert?

  this little girl was wa- waiting for her Phion to be reincarnated. So Phion, if I'm not mistaken, again, is only a name found in Ovid, not actually Sappho's surviving writing. Um, in Ovid's, uh, Heroides, there is a letter from Sappho to Phion essentially lamenting, I forget what happens, because I don't like that, I don't like that Heroides, and I don't subscribe to it as any kind of source. Um, not least because it's about a real person, and that's really dark to me, but like, the basics of it are like, that Sappho kills herself over this man. And that's why I think it's utter bullshit, and I just

• 21:02Liv Albert?

  don't, I like to pretend it doesn't exist, much like the Telegony. And um, so you know, I, I, I think that it's, it's still tied to this notion of, of like straightness, which is why I think, you know, I mean, there's a lot going on in this whole reincarnation idea, but, but Fion being any kind of love interest, I believe, is almost explicitly, if not entirely um, linked to Ovid only, which means that it's, you know, comfortable seven hundred or so years after Sappho's actual life, um, and therefore like pretty nonsensical. Uh, but also it, it absolutely does carry on today, uh, just to continue that part of the question like I, um, a couple of years ago, actually, I was in a shop in Athens.

• 21:48Liv Albert?

  Um, and it's, it's a really great, uh, museum reproduction shop, um, with the good ones and not the garbage ones. Um, and, and I would, I bought a piece, uh, that, that featured Sappho and I, you know, was, I, I chatted, I guess, or, or maybe it wasn't, I bought that. I also have a Sappho tattoo, which regularly gets, um, commented on in Greece because they see that it's Greek writing and then they get confused because it's an Iola Greek and it's like, it's kind of a baffling dialect, particularly to modern Greek. Um, and so anyway, we, we got to talking about Sappho and then this, this, you know, uh, I would say a, a Greek man, probably in his late sixties, early seventies, um, recited that bit of the story to me as a, as a fact about Sappho's life, right?

• 22:31Liv Albert?

  That, that she killed herself for a man. Um, and so I think that, that, I think that that part of the story, that general notion that, that does come from Ovid, absolutely made it into the like quote unquote, "history of Sappho" in a pretty meaningful way. Uh, I don't necessarily think that that's accurate or, or really like particularly historically relevant as a fact about her life. Um, but it absolutely does still exist today. So, you know, I do think, I mean, it's like everything when it comes to, to gay rights broadly and queerness broadly, you know, that like there's absolutely still a very large subset of people who just like do not.

• 23:17Liv Albert?

  Except that that humans are humans. Um, and so, you know, like, that definitely still does exist, especially, you know, aligning with modern Christianity. You know, Greece is an Orthodox country. It's a very Christian country. And so there is still that, you know, Greece only just legalized same-sex marriage. Um, so particularly over there, there's still those ties and and that's just a cultural thing. Um, but I do think it generally in in modern Western, um, and and, you know, English-speaking, I should say, not Western English-speaking, uh, academia about her, that it's pretty broadly accepted that she, you know, could be, should be read as queer today. That was a really long answer to the question, but thank you so much.

• 24:13Liv Albert?

  All right. This next one is from Sophia, who says, have you seen the recent movie Seneca? It's so great. It's so grating and great and weird, and the theater scene is so grotesque and mad. Curious to hear your thoughts. I'm just gonna pause there to say, no, I have not. I did not know about this movie, and now I have to look it up. Thank you. And then continuing on. Okay. Also, have you read the Dune series? They have all these references to the Curse of Atreus, and supposedly this far-in-the-future, off-planet family of the Atreides are a descendant from that old cursed family, and I think it's super interesting. So that part I do, I know of that. I haven't read Dune, and I actually haven't seen the movies. I really haven't

• 24:56Liv Albert?

  watched a lot of stuff lately. Just everything else is, there's just too much going on in my brain to pay, to focus on, um, things. Oh, God. Um, so no, I haven't, I haven't even seen it. We were, I was actually just talking about it, um, with my friend, uh, who I've just moved in with, and we're gonna watch it. We're gonna watch Dune. I do know what the Atreides references, not least because I think, like, years and years ago, I was talking to a friend about it, and I think he just, like, mentioned Atreides or something, and I was like, well, that's from Greek myth. What are you talking about? And then I had to, like, figure out. I think I had to Google it. It's like, oh, Dune, Dune uses all this stuff. So no, I don't know enough about it. I just know that um, that there's like a lot of that curse nature. Uh, as far as I know, I don't, I don't know quite how like tied it is to actual, to like uh, anything in the, the mythology itself.

• 25:41Liv Albert?

  But you all do know how much I love the curse on the House of Atria. So I gotta, I will hopefully have more information about that soon. Okay. And then um, Sophia continued on. Another very different question. In your conversation episodes, which I enjoy immensely, you have a lot of experts and scholars who are from the US or Canada or the UK. Obviously that makes a lot of sense since the podcast is in English and I imagine the audience is also mostly English speaking. And the contacts to experts also come from that. So this is absolutely not a reproach, but I just wonder. Is it as I fear and are really a lot of the main global experts on ancient Mediterranean cultures from Anglo countries? Because universities have the most money and fund the digs, et cetera.

• 26:20Liv Albert?

  Or is it just that the English speaking tip of the iceberg is actually, and that there is a world out there of thriving Greek, Cypriot, Georgian and Turkish, et cetera. Historians and experts and digs, et cetera. Just hoping the world of Mediterranean archaeology is not super colonial and you know, North American hegemony stuff. Um, and I am speaking from the country of Schlemann. So I mean.

• 26:42Liv Albert?

  Thank you. That was a good question and I'm really glad you asked that, but I can't like really answer it. Um, because like I don't, I, the, here's the thing. It's like, it's one of those things where. It's um, like it is still, it's even my answer is still so based in like everything that you just mentioned, right? My circles, my knowledge, my language. So I don't, I, I only speak English. Um, it's a travesty, but it's true. I'm working on the Greek. Um, I mean, and a very garbage French, but um, so I don't know, right? So like, I can't, I don't go looking for anything that's not in English. So I don't, I, I know that there is.

• 27:24Liv Albert?

  I would say, okay, I know for a fact that there is like a very large, very large, non-English. Um, world of classical history, uh, but I can tell you right now that it's German. So.

• 27:41Liv Albert?

  So it doesn't change anything about your question. Um, so in, in terms though of the Mediterranean, like I know that they're definitely like Greece specifically, you know, does a lot on their own, but they, they also work a lot with English speaking, um, and Western, uh, uh, universities and things. So I mean, it, it, your answer has, or your question has a few parts. I would say that from my knowledge, the, the academic world, when it comes to, um, particularly, you know, ancient Greece and Rome is very Western. And I say Western, not English speaking, right?

• 28:19Liv Albert?

  So the, there is a, a very large, um, world of, of German academia in this field. Uh, and, and also, you know, it's not definitely not just North American, but that doesn't make it better. I mean, are you, I mean, you said North American, but I think you just generally mean, um, Western because you know, I would say at least half of my guests are not from, you know, the States, uh, or, or Canada for that matter, but from the UK, right? Like, so it's a lot. There's a lot in the UK. So yes, it's still colonialist as shit, but, but just not

• 29:04Liv Albert?

  specific to North America. Uh, yeah, no, it is, it is pretty colonial as far as I know. Um, I also hope that there is a thriving Greek, Cypriot, Georgian, Turkish, et cetera, um, field, but I don't know it if it's there because I have no real way of determining that, right? Um, I, I purposefully, uh, do seek out as many non-Western as I can. Um, but it is, you know, a combination of the field and my circles and my language, all of these things that are happening. Um, and also honestly that like a lot of my guests come to me. And so it's also like where I'm known, unfortunately, and I would love, I would love to work on that

• 29:47Liv Albert?

  more. Um, I, I hope in the future to be able to, to definitely reach out to more guests from a broader. A broader realm of of this world. Um, for me, for a long time, it was about time. You know, how many I have to record and how much time I actually have to go looking for guests. But we're working on that with expanding the team and expanding Michaela's role and all of these different things. So, and and honestly, this this is true for any and all of like forever in this podcast. If anyone has recommendations of of experts in this field, particularly experts who, you know, aren't in the, you know, quote unquote, west, uh, the the field from the west or or what have you.

• 30:29Liv Albert?

  But obviously, do you still need to speak English? Because, yeah. Um, yeah, I I would, I am always welcoming recommendations for names for me to then go look into or or reach out to, um, or, you know, if if someone's listening and they are an expert in the field and are not from North America or the UK, uh, please, reach out. Like, I honestly, I would love it so much. It's just a matter of accessibility to buy me. Um, so, you know, that's all to say, still colonial is shit. But I hope it's that there is at least a field outside of that. Uh, and I'm sure it's getting marginally better, but, um, particularly in the Middle East, um, probably not.

• 31:13Liv Albert?

  Because Western colonialism is toxic and genocidal. And hopefully moving on to something lighter. This is from Yanni. I hope I pronounced that right. Apologies if I failed. Hey, Liv, love the show. I'm interested to know if AI technology is or can be used to help conjecture what fragmented plays by Euripides, for example, are most likely about. Have you heard of anyone doing this? They could feed in every piece of writing we have, all the scholarly essays, the titles and context. And I'm just gonna stop you right there. Um, sorry, this is not about you. This is about me. I.

• 31:54Liv Albert?

  I will never, uh, I mean, oh, fuck AI. Fuck AI. Um, I mean, I know that it has some beneficial uses, but particularly when it comes to the arts and stuff like that, like. I don't think that AI, I think that AI would never get it right because AI is so biased. By what it is fed and also like, I mean, from the ancient world, it's like, it's slightly different. I- in terms of the, the issues about, you know, the arts and humanity, but I.

• 32:33Liv Albert?

  I feel really strongly that a computer can never understand the human condition and the thing about mythology and the plays. Um, the tragedies is that they are, they are too human for AI. That's how I feel about it. They are, they are too human. Um. And, and so AI would never get it right. And then we would just have this thing that we. Think maybe could be it. Um, like I, I think AI has a use probably in the field in terms of, um.

• 33:11Liv Albert?

  Reading damaged texts and making educated guesses as to what, you know, um, what. Characters might be damaged or blurry or whatever. And I know AI. Can probably do some good work. I think they're, they're using some things, um, on, on carbonized, uh, uh. Scrolls and papyri and things like that, things that, um, we can't access as humans. But when it comes to the words themselves, I, I don't believe AI can or should. Be used or relied on in that way. Not least because AI, you know, on, on top of its.

• 33:57Liv Albert?

  Um, the way it is, is generally devaluing the very nature of, of humanity.

• 34:04Liv Albert?

  As creators of art, um, you know, I think, I think that's one of the most dangerous parts of AI and then simultaneously AI is one of the biggest threats to the climate um of the last probably decade, like the amount of carbon that it takes to run AI is is utterly horrifying, like it is the next fossil fuel company, like it is the next thing that's going to just continue to take out like the globe. Anyway, sorry, I feel really strongly about AI. Again, this is not about your question. I know it is incredibly well intentioned. It is about my feelings about AI, which is fuck AI.

• 34:47Liv Albert?

  Okay, this next one is from Jasper, who says, hi, this is about Clytemnestra and the sacrifice of Ifcanaya, and to a lesser extent, the curse on the house of Atrius. Uh, thank you. Uh, what do you think about Clytemnestra also being a daughter of Zeus and how that plays into her and Helen being married into a bloodline literally cursed by Zeus? Do you think Zeus cared? And along with that, if Clytemnestra does have divine parentage like her sister, how do you think Artemis felt demanding a sacrifice of her niece essentially? Do you think it was Artemis fulfilling the curse of Atrius or making it so Agamemnon had more stake in the war? And if the whole point of the war was to get Helen back, why sacrifice another female member of the family to do so? Is it just um what's a daughter

• 35:31Liv Albert?

  to a wife, to honor and spoils to glory? I just want to know your thoughts on this whole dynamic because it's making me insane. Thank you. Thank you, Jasper. That's a very fun question.

• 35:42Liv Albert?

  Okay, so, so here, so the parentage of that family is heavily contested by the sources. There's a lot of back and forth about whose father is who. So Helen is almost exclusively uh uh defined as a goddess, as the daughter of Zeus, but Clytemnestra never, as far as I know, never is mentioned as that, right? So the the basics of the story appear to be that, you know, the the idea is that their mother Leda um was said to have, you know, been assaulted by Zeus in the form of a swan and then this very same night had sex with

• 36:24Liv Albert?

  her husband, Tindarius, who was the king of Sparta. And so.

• 36:30Liv Albert?

  The idea is that Helen and then, um, I believe it's Castor, but I will always get that wrong. Helen and one of the Diasgory, the two brothers, Castor and Polidoukas. Uh, one of them and Helen, I'm saying this so poorly. One of them and Helen is divine, is, uh, the child of Zeus. And that Clytemnestra and the other brother are the children of Tyndareus. So they both have, they have two dads, right? And now, of course, there's a lot you could read into this, like, there's a lot, there's a lot in there. But what there isn't really is ever this kind of familial association between the Olympians and, um,

• 37:11Liv Albert?

  those children, really, like Helen is the, well, not, not the children, the Diasgory, yes, but, but Helen and Clytemnestra, like, there, there's minimal acknowledgement, um, that Helen is a child of Zeus in the Iliad. Like, it's not, you know, she's not treated like, um, like Aeneas, you know, who's a child of Aphrodite, who's like saved. Or, uh, or of Achilles, obviously. Um, she is just, you know, well, I think it's because she's a she. Um, but essentially, you know, it's not, it's not so as much about her being, um, divine. And so I don't think that there's really much connection between Clytemnestra and Zeus. And I do, even if there was, I don't think Zeus gave a shit.

• 37:55Liv Albert?

  Um, and I don't think it's because it's Clytemnestra. I don't think it's because it's this cursed family. I just think, I mean, overall, I think that this story just served a different purpose. Um, and so, you know, the, the curse, also you have to consider, unfortunately, that, that very annoying thing I remind you all of so often, which is just that like all these bits and pieces are often coming from later time periods. And so you can't necessarily, you know, say that for certain, all the things that we know about this family from after the Homeric, um, tradition, you know, were necessarily known during the Homeric tradition when it was being recorded.

• 38:38Liv Albert?

  And, and so it, it's just, it's all to say, it's really hard to say, but I would say that, that there really isn't much argument to be made of a familial connection, um, between Artemis and Iphigenia.

• 38:54Liv Albert?

  But at the same time, you know, when you're looking at those things through the plays, like you can see that, you know, there, there's lots of different kind of variations. And I don't really think that it's about Artemis having any kind of problem with Iphigenia. It's really just, I don't know, I think it's really more about to tell the story of, you know, this, this father having, doing this terrible thing and, you know, the, the ramifications on the family and, you know, it's, it's, that's sort of, there's just a lot kind of going on. Um, but it, it's like, the sacrifice really is, I mean, it's a tough, it's a tough one

• 39:33Liv Albert?

  to place in the broader idea of the story. Um, and kind of what, I wish I could say more, but also I'll be honest with you guys. It has been a wild few weeks and I have not had to, you know, use my brain to be smart, um, in a while, and I'm still trying to get it back because there's, there's been a, it's been a wild few weeks. Like, it's gonna be good, but anyway, I'm struggling. I'm struggling with the brain. But thank you for that question. It's really interesting. And I think that's why I'm struggling so much because there's just too many things to say.

• 40:18Liv Albert?

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• 41:04Liv Albert?

  Woven leather bag. I seriously use it everywhere. That's why it's with me here. It's beautiful and it's practical and it's from Quince. And I actually have a parcel to pick up when I when I get back home, which has some goodies in there. I got this pair of corduroy high-rise pants. I'm really excited to try those out as soon as I get home. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

• 41:49Liv Albert?

  Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Let's Talk About Myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

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• 43:27Liv Albert?

  All right, I have a few quick questions from McKenna. We're gonna go through these. I like them. First, what happens to Hermione? That's a great question. So Hermione is the daughter of Helen and Menelaus, and she is left behind in Sparta when Helen is taken to Troy. There is not a ton of mentions of Hermione. She does appear later. She, there are references to her marrying, I believe, both

• 43:55Liv Albert?

  Neoptolemus, who's the son of Achilles, and Orestes. I feel like there's a version where she marries Neoptolemus and then Neoptolemus dies. Yeah, cuz that's in a play. I do believe it's in the Andromache because he brings back Andromache, wife of Hector, as a slave when he goes back to Greece. And then he marries Hermione, and then there's this kind of whole dynamic there.

• 44:21Liv Albert?

  And then I believe he is killed, and then Hermione marries Orestes. But these are only in different variations. So all of this stuff is really coming from plays. So we can't necessarily say that it was the, you know, quote unquote, canon version, according to the ancient Greeks themselves. Ultimately, Hermione does play this like generally small role. She's kind of important just that as the daughter, as the fact that Helen did have this daughter before she went to Troy. And then otherwise mostly appears in these plays where we can't really say that they were attempting to tell a story that featured, you know, their quote unquote true Hermione. What instead these plays are telling the story of is like, you know, the effects of the war,

• 45:06Liv Albert?

  the, the people who were kind of taken after the war, the people who did the taking, what that looks like. And then later Hermione is serving in this role of kind of looking at the curse of this family and Orestes who is, I believe it's that, you know, he is eventually um kind of redeemed for the killing of Quedamnestra and then he's allowed to marry Hermione, things like that. So she appears in a handful of different plays, but there's so much, there's so many different things happening in each of those plays and they're each telling so many different versions of a story that it's tough to say too much about Hermione. But what I can say is really cute is that um there is still a town today in that area of the generally

• 45:50Liv Albert?

  of the Argalid that is just still called Hermione. I believe the Greek pronunciation would be different than that, but essentially there is a town to this day named for her. So she may not survive in any kind of um, you know, o- o- o- original organic kind of mythology, uh but she definitely survives just in terms of her, her name, you know, living on over there, which is, which is lovely. The next one is uh again from McKenna, what plays have the charities and which one marries Hephaestus? I don't know of any plays offhand that feature the charities. They're not, they don't really appear too much in uh in the myths themselves outside of sort of just being these attendants of

• 46:34Liv Albert?

  Aphrodite. Um and that, that is what they are. They, you know, they're the attendants of Aphrodite. So I know they appear um in, you know, the Homeric hymn to Aphrodite when she goes off and, and makes a baby with Anchises and, and things like that. Um I don't know of any plays, uh but I can tell you that it is Charis, Charis Agalia, I believe. Uh one or both of those are her names. Uh she's the one who is married to Hephaestus in the Iliad, whereas in the Odyssey, he's married to Aphrodite, I believe. Um, you know, so there are these variations, these kind of really contradictory ideas about even who Hephaestus is married to. Is it Aphrodite? Is it one of the, the charities? And then

• 47:17Liv Albert?

  what else kind of do they serve? But um they don't really appear uh as far as I know in any kind of like a detailed way. They're very much like those. Those so, so, so many gods and goddesses um who really just serve a purpose uh in terms of like what they represent. You know, they're uh also known as the graces um and so they were just these attendants of Aphrodite who, you know, were very beautiful and graceful and you know, all of those different things, but they don't really have um character-based stories as as far as I'm aware. Um, yeah, okay, the next one from McKenna, uh what were the Greeks views on death and did this affect the views of Hades? Um, you know, i- i- it's hard to say, you know, what their idea of uh views on death was with any kind of broad idea.

• 48:02Liv Albert?

  We're talking about a thousand years, right? Or so of of time period that this is spanning. Um, but the, I think the most important thing that I take away from, you know, all that I've learned about the death and the underworld is that they weren't afraid of death and the underworld like the um like the Christian idea would, you know, ha- has kind of influenced our culture today. There was no hell, right? The underworld um was hot and fiery, but it wasn't hot and fiery to be this like eternal punishment. It was hot and fiery because it was the underworld and they knew that the earth was hot and fiery inside.

• 48:46Liv Albert?

  Um, and so that's just, it was really just uh to show an understanding of like generally earth science. Um, and and and that's similarly linked to uh, you know, their views on Hades, which is that he wasn't, they weren't afraid of Hades as a concept because they weren't necessarily afraid of death. I mean, I don't think they were, you know, they didn't well commit, but I don't think there wasn't this fear that like after you died, you'd be punished, right? There's only this handful of stories of of people who have shitty afterlives and they do really, really, really terrible things. And otherwise it's just kind of, you're there and you know, it's not good, it's not bad. Um, you know, there, there is a notion of the of Elysium and and the things, everything to do with the Eleusinian mysteries.

• 49:31Liv Albert?

  That comes in as as a way to like ensure really good afterlife, but there really wasn't this idea of like a bad. Um, Hades is just the world of the dead. It's neutral, I would say. And and again, like the, the idea of the underworld is also

• 49:49Liv Albert?

  I would say not just neutral, but but really just tied to science and and like geology, I guess. Um, because, you know, again, it's like it's hot and fiery there. It's just generally representative of what is inside of the earth. Um, but also that comes along with, you know, Hades is, um, particularly under the the cult name of Pluto is the god of wealth. Uh, and he's the god of wealth because they there are riches and wealth that comes from the earth, right? Precious gems and and and metals and all of these things. So they really aligned. They aligned him with that, too. So like objectively, like good things. And so it was just the

• 50:31Liv Albert?

  nature of like, what's in the earth? And then this god is in the earth because after you die, you go into the earth. That's kind of the notion. Um, and so I think it's it's pretty neutral and but I find incredibly interesting. All right. This next one is from Jazz, who says, how do you feel about the Odysseus is a victim of sexual assault by Circe and Calypso? I can't really see the argument for Circe because if I remember correctly, his men had to drag him away from her. And as for Calypso, I thought he willingly slept with her and then was like, I want to leave, and she wouldn't let him. But wasn't she also trapped on the island? If she can't leave, how could she help him leave? I'm on the fence because I can see how you can interpret it like that. But I can also see how this is taking away from his agency in

• 51:13Liv Albert?

  order for people to moralize him as this dude who just loves his wife and is a victim of fate. I'd really like to know your thoughts. Thank you. That is a fun. That is a fun question. Um, so, yeah, uh, I feel similarly to you. I would say when it comes to Circe, I don't see how that argument holds really any water. Um, just because, yeah, like you said, I mean, Like he does go to Cersei to save his men, um, but like she, she doesn't even have to like coerce him. Like he's like, give me back my men. And she's like, okay, um, you know, do you want to have sex with me?

• 51:54Liv Albert?

  And he's like, yeah. And then like, she doesn't even, like, he doesn't even get her to do it until after they're done. Like, it's a whole thing, if I recall. Um, so, and then he stays with her for a year and he's like, pretty happy about it. And then after a year, he's like, oh, I guess I should keep going. Like, I definitely don't see how it stands with Cersei. Um, and Calypso, like, yeah, the thing about the whole Calypso saga is that we get like very little information about it, right? Like it's, it's how we open, but like we, and we know he's been there for, I think it's like seven years or something. Um, he's been there a long time and we know he wants to leave, but like, that is, that's kind of about all we get.

• 52:34Liv Albert?

  I think the general idea is that, yeah, like he rolled up originally and was like, pretty happy to be with her. And then after wanted to leave. And so like, I think certainly you could argue that like he revoked his consent. Um, but like, there really isn't any kind of, the thing about it is that like, I don't know. It, it's really hard to say just based on, on kind of what we have, but I do think that like all, based on the rest of what we have about Odysseus, like, I don't think that, I don't really, I don't really think that it is a particularly, you know, valid argument, just because of everything else in his character suggests that like he would have been fine with that.

• 53:16Liv Albert?

  Um, I don't know. It's, it's, it is an interesting question, but I generally do see, yeah, I, I see more as you see, which is that like he just generally did some pretty awful stuff and like, people do love to say that he's just this like guy wanted to go home to his wife, but that's not really what we get. Like he wanted to go home to Ithaca, like he was, he did want to go home to his wife, but like, he was pretty happy to just do what he wanted to do while he was away from his wife, you know? Like, I don't, I don't really think that we necessarily need to give him much sympathy for that. Um, yeah, he made a lot of mistakes too. Like, well, you know, he's my main man, but he's also a messy bitch. Okay, this next.

• 53:59Liv Albert?

  This next question comes from, and this is what they just typed into the name field, I love you. I hate Jason with a passion. Thank you, I hate Jason with a passion. Okay, they said, "I live, I love your content and how you don't shy away from highlighting the feminist and queer themes, all while exposing the patriarchal nature found in many myths." Thank you, me too. "I would love to learn more about Adalanta and the sapphic undertones found in Artemis during her, and her, quote, roommate nymphs." So, Adalanta, I would recommend you listen to the two episodes I've done on her. I did that a couple of years ago. I just recently replayed one of them, but you could listen to the other one as well, because I did, I kind of split her into two. Because Adalanta's

• 54:41Liv Albert?

  really interesting, she appears in all these different ways, but like, I mean, we don't have a ton that survives on her in detail from before, Pseudapolodorus, who is like an incredibly late figure writing. So we know that she was there, we know that she was important, we know that she, you know, was involved with the Caledonian boar hunt, sometimes the, the, the quest for the golden fleece. There's, you know, she's very much, she's very much around in the earliest sources, but we just don't know too much more about her in terms of any kind of character. She, she was there, she was notable, but unfortunately, just like, not a lot survives. But I would recommend you listen to those episodes, because

• 55:24Liv Albert?

  I dug as deep as I could back then, in, into those. And so, they're a, a good, good starting point for learning about her in, in the mythological tradition. As for Artemis and the sapphic undertones, the problem is, like, I think that they, you can read them as there, but the problem is, is that the sources that survive and like, just what survives, doesn't really give us anything explicit, primarily because what we're looking at is the stuff recorded by the men, right? And, and to them, Artemis was this, like, baffling woman who just must have been a virgin, because she never had any men around. And so I think that, like, If you want to, you can then inherently read like that there may be being sapphic undertones

• 56:08Liv Albert?

  in those decisions because yeah, she only surrounded herself with nymphs. But you could also read asexuality into that and that these are just her friends and she just didn't like men. Like, I don't consider myself to be particularly queer as much as I wish I was and and feel like I must be part of this community in some way. Um, but I don't like men, you know? So I surround myself with women, but it's not in a sexy way. It's just in a, I don't really like men all that much kind of way. Not all of you, but you know, just statistically. Um, and so, you know, I do think that you can read those undertones into it if you want. Um, I think that that's an absolutely valid read.

• 56:49Liv Albert?

  I don't necessarily though, think that the explicit stuff that survives gives us that inherently. I think it's more about interpretation. But again, you know, not, not because it wasn't there, um, but it because it doesn't survive in the sources. Cause the sources were dudes who, again, and I've said this on the show 10,000 times now, but I'm fairly convinced that the sources as you know, generally as they survive were broadly by men who did not consider it to be a literal, physical possibility for women to have sexual relationships with each other. So I think that they were probably doing it all over the place, having a ball. But the dudes were just like, wow, those two ladies are hanging out.

• 57:32Liv Albert?

  Like they were always like Artemis is always with her nymphs. How nice for her. Like there's just ladies and gosh, she must've been a virgin because there were never any men around. You know, so that's what survives. So that's what we can, you know, in, in terms of my, my knowledge of the, the physical, the text sources. Like that's what we can say, but again, I think you can pretty easily read, read into that if you so choose. And I do, I, I believe that there's absolutely, at least particularly for the women in the ancient world, that they would have read sapphic undertones into, to Artemis's decisions and, and all of her nymph ladies.

• 58:19Liv Albert?

  All right, we're gonna do, I think probably just one more. This is long. Okay, this is from Eileen, but it's spelled not like that, and I love it. Uh, how do we know that Greek mythology was the ancient Greeks' actual religion and not just a story like Lord of the Rings is, which has a world, a lot of world-making gods, etc., can't all the statues, shrines, etc. be created by, quote, "fans"? Like how we created Comic Cons for Harry Potter and Harry Potter theme parks, etc. Um, I think that, uh, I think that both of those things can be true at once. Like, um, the mythology, and for one, I'm not saying that mythology, mythology broadly

• 59:04Liv Albert?

  was their religion. I don't think that those two words shouldn't be combined. Mythology is a different thing from religion. That said, it was their religion to worship these gods. But mythology is the story of these gods, and that is not inherently the religion. That becomes difficult because the Bible is absolutely mythology, and it's also the religion, but that's, Christians made that that way. Sorry. Um, I'm not actually sorry. Uh, no, but it it's that like that, we we do know for a fact that they worshipped these gods, um, and they worshipped at these shrines, and we know that because of physical evidence of like all of these different forms of what we know of as worship. Um, the pouring of libations and the sacrificing of animals and the burning and all of these things that

• 59:48Liv Albert?

  left these physical remains that we know they worshipped, they did these things. And those things that, you know, all these different forms of worship and sacrifice that they did at these shrines, at these temples, all of these things, you know, that you're saying, you know, could they, how do we know they couldn't be created by, quote, "fans"? We know they did all of those things at those places, and so we consider it religion. Um, we know that Christianity, particularly, let's say Catholicism, do all the, a bunch of different things like that. They do all these religious traditions and worship and shrines and all of that in these places of worship, and so we call that religion. Okay?

• 1:00:27Liv Albert?

  But I don't actually think that there is anything inherently different about what you define of as fandom with say, Harry Potter. And I, I say that with a cringe. Because I, you know, because J. K. Rowling is a piece of human garbage, but I, I, it is a better representation of, of the point I'm going to try to make. So we're going to continue on with Harry Potter. Because, um, okay. So yeah, we go, let's say the, the theme park as like a, a stand in for the Acropolis, the, the Parthenon, right? The Parthenon is a place of worship. I mean, I think that, I think that the Harry Potter theme park could be defined as a place of worship,

• 1:01:08Liv Albert?

  but the worship is of this thing, you know, a, a, a book, much like a Bible, um, and, and that the, the practices associated with the worship. Also just, I mean, to me, it's a worship of capitalism simultaneously, but it doesn't, how, I don't know, I don't know how religious my audience is, or just what lines of blasphemy I'm walking right now. And I'm not really, I don't really care because like, I don't, I don't inherently see how that's different.

• 1:01:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah, like it, it ultimately is still stories that are being, um, that people are finding deep life meanings in, that they are performing actions, um, that are traditionally meant to show appreciation for the characters, uh, that they are, you know, defining, gathering together to worship these characters from a, a, a text source that has come to them in a meaningful way that, that speaks to them internally,

• 1:02:24Liv Albert?

  that they, they can find purpose and value in. And I think all of those things, all of that description that I just made can be applied to the, the gods and the temples in ancient Greece. They can be applied to the earliest forms of, of Christianity and even Christianity today, let alone other modern religions. And I think that they can be applied to Harry Potter world.

• 1:02:51Liv Albert?

  It's just, they just come in different forms, but ultimately at their core are serving very similar, if not the same, purposes. And also JK Rowling is a piece of human garbage, and trans rights are human rights, and trans people deserve all of the love and affection in the world, because they are human, just like everyone else. Okay.

• 1:03:26Liv Albert?

  That feels like a fun way to end it, honestly, listeners, this episode. Uh, I think it's gone on, uh, enough. This is again, me trying to get back into this realm. It's so interesting trying to navigate, um, brains, brain chemistry, and all the different ways in which my ADHD and suspected autism are just, I don't even know, moving and changing and thriving and driving me slowly insane, but in a good way. Anyway, I really do hope to be back to regularly scheduled programming and be writing scripts and stuff as soon as possible. I'm just trying to get settled in like this, in basically entirely new life, in, in so many different

• 1:04:08Liv Albert?

  ways. And I'm very excited about all of it. Uh, but in the meantime, it's like, trying to make brain think words that are smart and write them down in ways that sound not bad. Um, that's just, it's coming slowly. We'll get there. It's a slow time of year. I will be back on Friday with more answers to your questions, because you've all given me so many. I've barely scratched the surface. I do want to get to, I think maybe I'll just do like a little segment, maybe once a month where I answer a question or two. I don't know. I'm gonna do more. I'm gonna do more. Uh, thank you all so much, uh, for coming along with the ride and for asking these questions and just listening for all this time. I'm really excited about what is to come.

• 1:04:56Liv Albert?

  So many ideas, so many plans and schemes and "Let's Talk About Myths, Baby" is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Penguish is the Hermes to my Olympians, the assistant producer who just gods does so many awesome things. We love Michaela. Select music in this episode was by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network. Listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:05:27Liv Albert?

  Uh, sign up for the newsletter that I didn't do in November because again, there's too many things going on. I just can't even possibly express to you how many weeks passed while I just simply blinked, but we'll get back into it. So much is coming as soon as I can get my head around existing in this new space. I am Liv and I love this shit so much.

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  Verizon FiOS celebrates the holiday hostess with the mostess. When the whole family's over, you've got Verizon FiOS whole home Wi-Fi. Fast, reliable, 100% fiber internet in every room. So your little nephews can blast video games on full volume. Your daughter can stream football under the dinner table and grandpa can turn on the same movie for the third time. A full house with full Wi-Fi coverage. So everyone can do their own thing together. 100% fiber internet for 100% holiday hosts. Switch to Verizon FiOS today. Full home Wi-Fi included with all FiOS gig plans. Availability varies.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals. No kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 1:07:45Speaker 04

  "Enemy of My Dreams" by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome.

• 1:08:03Speaker 05

  The much awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart.

• 1:08:16Speaker 04

  And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 1:08:30Speaker 05

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.