The Unabomber Pt. 1

Explore the origins of Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, in this deep dive into the psychology behind one of America’s most infamous domestic terrorists. From his troubled childhood, social isolation, and controversial Harvard psychological study to his retreat into the Montana wilderness, Vanessa and Dr. Engels examine how a math prodigy became radicalized against technology and industrial society. What turns a gifted genius into a serial bomber — and what warning signs were missed along the way? If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to never miss a case! For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Serial Killers & Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios 🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to other Crime House Originals Clues, Crimes Of…, Murder True Crime Stories, Crime House 24/7, and more wherever you get your podcasts! Follow me on Social Instagram: @Crimehouse https://www.instagram.com/crimehouse/ TikTok: @Crimehouse https://www.tiktok.com/@crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios https://www.facebook.com/crimehousestudios YouTube: @crimehousestudios https://www.youtube.com/@crimehousestudios

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Hi, everyone. Before today's episode, there's another show I want to tell you about. It's called What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Plus, Connor's infectious energy that'll make you realize history is the most fascinating thing on earth. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 0:42Vanessa Richardson?

  We all feel the need to voice our opinions, to share our ideas, our beliefs, and the way we see the world. For most people, that expression goes like you'd expect. We talk to others, write in a journal, or post on social media. But sometimes, the need to be heard becomes consuming, and some might go to extreme lengths to spread their message. For Ted Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber, it wasn't enough to simply share his ideas. Ted needed to force them upon the rest of the world, even if it meant becoming the nation's most notorious domestic terrorist.

• 1:33Vanessa Richardson?

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes, it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 1:49Tristin Engels?

  And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.

• 1:58Vanessa Richardson?

  Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. Before we get started, be advised, this episode contains descriptions of violence and psychological abuse, so please listen with care. Today, we start our deep dive on Ted Kaczynski, the math genius turned domestic terrorist, who sent homemade explosives across the United States. In the process, Ted killed three people and injured many more, earning himself the infamous title, "The Unabomber."

• 2:42Tristin Engels?

  As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how a lack of autonomy as a child can lead some offenders to withdraw from society, how extreme isolation can feed someone's violent tendencies, and how some criminals rationalize large-scale violence.

• 2:59Vanessa Richardson?

  And as always, we'll be asking the question, "What makes a killer?"

• 3:10Vanessa Richardson?

  From the day he was born, Ted Kaczynski seemed destined for solitude. He was born in 1942 and raised in a working-class neighborhood outside Chicago. Growing up in the environment of World War II, many people valued family stability and social conformity as virtues. The Kaczynskis were no exception. Ted's parents, Wanda and Theodore, structured their daily lives around routine, discipline, and the belief that hard work would bring reward. They valued restraint and practicality, which was reflected in their quiet, carefully-kept home. Unfortunately, their fastidious lifestyles couldn't save them from everything. When Ted was just nine months old,

• 3:53Vanessa Richardson?

  he came down with a bad case of hives. He was hospitalized for weeks, and his parents weren't allowed to stay with him.

• 4:01Tristin Engels?

  In child development, we talk about critical periods and sensitive periods. A critical period is a narrow window when something has to happen for typical development to occur. Visual development is one of the most commonly cited examples of this because the brain needs clear visual input early in order to build the neural pathways responsible for processing sight. That period is critical. Without adequate stimulation, those pathways may not fully develop, and that affects visual functioning long term. Now, a sensitive period is different. That's the time when the brain is especially open to influence. And if something disruptive happens, it can have an impact, but there may be still room for repair. That's how it differs from a critical period.

• 4:47Tristin Engels?

  Examples are language acquisition or attachment. This is a sensitive period for Tet. At nine months old, a baby doesn't have language yet, but they absolutely have attachment. Around that age, infants are forming bonds with their caregivers or their parents, and that can become distressed when separated. If a baby is hospitalized for weeks without parental contact, which was common at that time, actually, that can dysregulate their nervous system. They're too young to understand what's happening, why they're there, or why their parents aren't with them. They just experience the absence. Also, object permanence is still developing in the first year of life. A child that age has limited ability to understand

• 5:32Tristin Engels?

  that a person still exists when they're not physically present. So prolonged separation might not feel temporary to a nine-month-old baby. Now, when stress responses are activated repeatedly during early development, especially during an illness like this, it can shape how the brain responds to stress later on. Research has shown that prolonged elevations in stress hormones like cortisol can influence how someone reacts to threat and how they form attachments later on. So some children may become more anxious, some may become more withdrawn, and some learn to rely heavily on themselves. That said, many infants experienced medical separation in that era, and they did not grow up to become violent offenders. It's not causation,

• 6:16Tristin Engels?

  but it's definitely a disruption during a very sensitive attachment window.

• 6:21Vanessa Richardson?

  So interesting. This reminds me of when people had kids in COVID, during the time of COVID. It's a little different because you could be with your little family bubble. This is, you know, he was obviously totally isolated. But in the event that an infant has to be isolated like this, what measures can be taken to ensure they develop in a normal, healthy way?

• 6:38Tristin Engels?

  The most protective factor in early development is responsive caregiving. And by that, I mean, if a caregiver can't physically be present, for whatever the reason is, then consistent sensory connection is the goal. So things like recorded voices, familiar objects with a caregiver's scent, visual contact whenever feasible, and as much skin-to-skin contact as hospital policy allows, which they do now in most cases. We've come a long way since then. And once there's reunification, that consistency needs to continue. So holding them, making eye contact, soothing touch. Infants need enough repeated experiences of comfort to reestablish safety. From there, it's important

• 7:22Tristin Engels?

  to monitor milestones and intervene if there are any signs of withdrawal, excessive irritability, or difficulty bonding. The good news is, an infant's brain is highly plastic, meaning it's highly adaptable, and it can be shaped by corrected experiences.

• 7:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, Wanda was concerned about how all the isolation would affect Ted as he grew older, and she was right to be worried. Ted recovered from his illness, but as he got older, it was clear that he struggled with socialization. He often kept to himself instead of playing outside with other kids in the neighborhood. And even though Wanda and Theodore had always emphasized self-control and self-sufficiency, Ted's isolation took things to a new level. As a child, Ted's only real friend was his younger brother, David, who was seven years younger than him. The two became extremely close as David got older. One of their favorite hobbies was going hiking with their dad on the weekends.

• 8:20Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted loved being surrounded by the vast wilderness, with no one but his father and little brother by his side. But as David got older and developed a more typical social life, Ted once again found himself on the fringes. He found consolation in one thing, though: his extreme intelligence. From an early age, Ted was a star student. He finished school assignments with ease and passed all his tests with flying colors. His elementary school teachers were so impressed, they had him skip a grade. And when Ted took an IQ test, the results indicated that he was a genius.

• 8:57Tristin Engels?

  So we're starting to paint a bigger picture of Ted. If he's socially isolating, even if it appears to be by choice at this point, then it's possible he may have felt rejected or even overlooked by same-aged peers. And his intelligence may have played a role in that. Many gifted children have expressed feeling like they had little in common with their peers. So he may have already felt different, and now he's being formally labeled as different. Skipping a grade can amplify that feeling, too. Academically, it makes sense to move him up because it aligns with his cognitive ability. But socially and emotionally, it can create more social distance.

• 9:37Tristin Engels?

  Because now he's with older peers, and he may feel out of sync developmentally and chronologically. I mean, there is a reason why he's only connecting with David, who's seven years younger than him. That can be difficult for children to navigate. Maturity differences between grades are very real, and they become even more pronounced when they're approaching adolescence. Also, a label like "gifted" can become part of their identity. A child may come to believe that their value lies in their intelligence or achievement is their primary source of validation. It can shape how a child sees themselves and how they think others see them.

• 10:17Tristin Engels?

  And in Ted's case, if intelligence became the safest and most reliable part of his identity, that may have strengthened over time, especially as other forms of belonging, like with his peers, for example, began to feel less stable.

• 10:32Vanessa Richardson?

  Once Ted was put on the fast track, he couldn't get off of it. That's because in the post-war era, the US invested heavily in science and engineering. The government provided funding to schools to identify "gifted" students, all with the goal of beating competitors like the Soviet Union. This meant that young, brilliant minds like Ted's were treated as a resource, especially when it came to national defense. So when Ted made it to high school and continued to show promise, he skipped a grade again. His parents weren't so sure about it, since he was already having trouble fitting in. They wanted their sons to lead normal, pleasant lives, but ultimately, the school convinced them

• 11:14Vanessa Richardson?

  that if Ted prioritized academics over everything else, he'd be better off in the long run. Ted's parents were persuaded. From there, his school administrators enrolled him in more STEM classes. But even though he kept doing well academically, he only fell more behind socially. Ted was two years younger than his classmates and couldn't figure out how to fit in with them. While others played sports and hung out on the weekends, he stayed home. His parents tried to convince him to go out and make some friends, but he preferred to shut himself in his room and read a book. Eventually, though, Ted managed to bond with his peers. The other kids in his science class

• 11:55Vanessa Richardson?

  had always been intrigued by his sense of curiosity and knack for experimentation. So Ted used those traits to try and make friends. He'd learned how to combine simple materials like batteries, wires, and potassium nitrate to create small explosions. One day, he showed the other kids how to do it. The makeshift bomb went off, and Ted's classmates ate it up. Unfortunately, the school administrators weren't as impressed. No one got hurt, but Ted was suspended for his stunt anyway.

• 12:28Tristin Engels?

  This is an extension of what we talked about earlier with regard to the risks of believing that value lies and their intelligence and achievement being their primary source of validation. Ted was encouraged to lean into science. He was identified as exceptional, placed into accelerated STEM path, and told that experimentation and intellectual curiosity were strengths. That becomes part of how he understands himself and his identity. And at this point, he's believing that this is what he's good at and this is where he belongs because that's what he's being told. And until now, he struggled to fit in. But when he finally starts to find his footing and he applies what he has taught, he gets approval from classmates but punishment from authority figures.

• 13:13Tristin Engels?

  And that's confusing for someone like Ted. Without any clear explanation regarding what about that was wrong and why, like maybe how it's a safety risk for students perhaps, then that experience likely feels like rejection. And this time, it's from the people who've been telling him he's exceptional for years and for doing the very thing he's been told he's exceptional at. That's inconsistent messaging and psychologically, that can create resentment, mistrust, feeling misunderstood, or unsure, and especially without clear communication.

• 13:49Vanessa Richardson?

  How do you think this experience might have affected Ted in terms of his ability to make friends? Is it possible he would have felt like he'd tried the one thing he knew how to do and it just totally backfired?

• 14:00Tristin Engels?

  I think this may have been a pivotal moment for him, and here's why. I mean firstly, it makes sense that he used science as a way to connect. Like you said, that was an area where he felt competent and confident. If you're struggling socially, you tend to lead with what you know you can rely on, but also what you can connect with. This would have been that thing. And in that moment, it worked. He received attention and approval from his peers, and maybe for the first time. That validation mattered. It's something he's been looking for, but it also backfired. He was suspended. And he may have linked the two experiences. The very thing that helped him connect also led to punishment. That might have felt very personal to him, especially if being intelligent was his identity.

• 14:45Tristin Engels?

  That can push someone further into isolation. If the one strategy you feel capable of using to connect leads to discipline, then self-reliance starts to feel safer. And it's worth noting that his parents, like you mentioned earlier, Vanessa, they emphasized self-control and self-reliance or self-sufficiency to him very early on. In that environment, withdrawing rather than re-attempting connection not only may have felt safer, but it also likely felt consistent with what he'd been taught since he was very young.

• 15:21Vanessa Richardson?

  While Ted grappled with ideas about power, he didn't really have anyone to talk about it with. And it wouldn't be until after high school that he'd find a way to express himself. When Ted graduated in 1958, his future was clear. At just 16 years old, he was headed to Harvard University, where he planned to study mathematics. He quickly adapted to the academic level, but his age gap and poor social skills meant he was still pretty isolated. Among the thousands of other students at Harvard, Ted still felt utterly alone. Most days, he just went to class and returned quietly to his dorm room. He'd managed to form a few friendly acquaintances, people he shared meals with, but he usually listened more than he talked.

• 16:05Vanessa Richardson?

  This gave him a lot of time to observe his peers, and there was one thing he couldn't help but notice. Just like him, a lot of Ted's classmates had been forced onto the path toward high-tech innovation. And because of that, their whole lives were laid out ahead of them, but they'd never asked for any of it. At times, Ted felt like he wanted to scream. So much of his life had been decided by others. He didn't even care about technological advancements. In fact, he believed technology was the scourge of the earth, that it was killing the planet and killing people's mental health. He fantasized about running off into the wilderness alone and leaving it all behind. Then, one day in the fall of 1959,

• 16:49Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted found something that would change his life forever.

• 16:54Vanessa Richardson?

  The psychology department was running a study on how gifted young men responded to stress. They were asking male students to sign up. Ted didn't know the details of what the study would involve, but he knew it was being run by senior Harvard psychologist, Dr. Henry Murray, who was well-known and respected. Plus, it only required a few hours of his time each week, and it was paid. Ted thought the study could be beneficial for him. Maybe he'd meet like-minded peers if he got more involved with the psychology department. Maybe he'd even form a connection with a renowned researcher, one who wasn't focused solely on technological advancement. So Ted signed up, and pretty soon, he was

• 17:36Vanessa Richardson?

  accepted. He was eager to see what doors the study might open for him. However, Ted had no idea that the goal of the study wasn't just to assess his mind, but to push it to its limits.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours. That's how long detectives have before the trail begins to go cold. From A and E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous true crime series, The First Forty-Eight. Step inside the critical window, the interrogations, the dead ends, and the breakthroughs that crack a case wide open. I'm Carter Roy. Each week, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation with a depth you know and immersive, long-form storytelling built for your ears. Real detectives,

• 18:35Speaker 01

  real cases, real stakes. This is The First Forty-Eight. New episodes every Thursday. Listen to and follow The First Forty-Eight on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 18:58Vanessa Richardson?

  In 1959, 17-year-old Ted Kaczynski enrolled in a psychological study at Harvard University. The goal was to assess how extremely intelligent young men, like those at Harvard, responded to stress. It was run by a top psychology researcher and professor, Dr. Henry Murray. Ted wasn't just flattered at the thought of being considered exceptional, he also hoped to bond with his peers along the way.

• 19:23Tristin Engels?

  This was likely very significant for Ted because he's been searching for belonging and connection and in some ways, a new identity outside of just being a genius. Being invited into a psychological study at Harvard may have felt like formal recognition of that. Not just that he was intelligent, but that he was worthy of being studied or included and taken seriously. At that age, especially after skipping grades and feeling chronologically out of sync with his peers, being included in something prestigious like this might have reinforced the idea that he does fit among thinkers and academics and people who value intellect. And most of all, this was voluntary. It wasn't something he was forced into.

• 20:08Tristin Engels?

  It wasn't something that someone decided for him. It was something that he sought out and he chose for himself. He was exercising agency over his life, perhaps for the very first time.

• 20:20Vanessa Richardson?

  So knowing that the study focused on the young men's stress responses, what sort of red flags or concerns come to mind for you, Dr. Engels?

• 20:29Tristin Engels?

  Okay, so well, you know, first off, it's the 1950s and there are a few concerns that come to mind, given that era. The ethical standards back then were so different than they are today. Informed consent, transparency about procedures and protection from psychological harm were not regulated the way that they are today. I mean, like you said, Ted doesn't really even understand what he's signing up for. Does he know the risks? The other thing that stands out to me is the framing of the study. They're recruiting people who are, quote, "exceptional." They are establishing a baseline there to which they are testing against. I don't yet know the parameters of the study, but if they are systematically placing undue

• 21:12Tristin Engels?

  stress directly on the part of the self that participants like Ted feel is most stable or that they're most confident about themselves, then that's a red flag because that could cause harm. There's also the matter of his age. He's 17 and yes, he's in Harvard. He's still an adolescent and technically a legal minor. Is he even legally able to sign up without a parent back then? Also, even if he's cognitively advanced, which he is, and we know this, it's documented, his emotional regulation skills are still forming. His stress response is not going to be the same as someone over the age of 25 regardless of his intellect. So those are some of the red flags and the concerns that initially popped out at me,

• 21:57Tristin Engels?

  but I guarantee that there would be more if I actually saw the methods and the actual intention of the study.

• 22:04Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, it may have seemed exciting, but Ted, he had no idea what was in store for him. He entered a classroom where he sat down with about 20 other male students. A research assistant told them their first assignment was to write a brief essay about how they viewed the world and about their own personal philosophies. The essay prompt was pretty broad, and Ted let his ideas flow, expressing his resentment towards science, technology, and industrial society. After everyone finished their essays, they were called into a separate room, one by one. Ted waited patiently, and once his name was called, he entered a stark, brightly lit room. Dr. Murray sat on one side of the room.

• 22:46Vanessa Richardson?

  A man in a black suit and tie, who Ted didn't recognize, stood next to him. Ted took a seat across from the two men. Then, research assistants started attaching electrodes to him so they could monitor his heart rate. Ted fixed his gaze on Dr. Murray and the other man, who seemed to be the only one who didn't mind the harsh lighting. When the assistants finished with the electrodes, Ted noticed a video camera set up in the corner of the room. Before he could say anything, Dr. Murray cut him off. He said he'd read Ted's essay and thought it was good, but the team had some questions. Suddenly, the other man took over. He walked over to Ted and loomed over him before launching into a series of harsh criticisms on his essay.

• 23:31Vanessa Richardson?

  He demanded that Ted defend his ideas, but when Ted tried to respond, the man mocked him. He made fun of the way Ted spoke and even his appearance. He called him naive and childish. Ted kept trying to defend himself, but he couldn't find the words, so the man continued. His insults became more cruel, until Ted felt himself shrinking. For someone already unsure of his place in the world, the experience cut deep. He reminded himself, this was part of the study. So even though he left the session shaken up, he came back the next week, and the week after that. Over the next three years, he spent nearly 200 hours in the study.

• 24:15Vanessa Richardson?

  He wrote essays and endured repeated interrogations, but no one ever told him any of the results or even the study's true purpose.

• 24:25Tristin Engels?

  Nowadays, research requires informed consent, like I mentioned, but also debriefing. Participants are told what the study involves and they're given context afterward. Back then, that wasn't the standard, and as a result, there was real psychological harm occurring here, especially when you consider how Ted likely viewed Dr. Murray. Dr. Murray was a prestigious authority figure, and not only was Ted receiving harsh criticism and humiliation framed as methodology in a study, but because of who Dr. Murray was and what he represented to Ted, he likely trusted him. And therefore, compliance felt necessary, or questioning it might have felt inappropriate.

• 25:09Tristin Engels?

  Dr. Murray is the trusted adult and the expert. Ted repeatedly encountered environments where his intelligence was tested, challenged, or tied somehow to evaluation. First was school and the STEM. Track and now here. That can reinforce that his value is something that he has to demonstrate under pressure. And again, I want to highlight the framing of the study. If you recruit participants by telling them that you're studying exceptionally intelligent young men and their stress responses, that can implicitly suggest that intelligence is being challenged. And for someone like Ted, that's tied to their identity, that can also feel like an evaluation in itself.

• 25:52Tristin Engels?

  Like they want to see how exceptional you really are under pressure. That creates performance pressure before the study even begins. And that he now has to prove his value by enduring what the study does to him. So the harm isn't just in the criticism or the humiliation, because it certainly is. But it's also the setup and the idea that your status as exceptional is something you now have to somehow defend.

• 26:19Vanessa Richardson?

  Nearly 200 hours in over three years is a long time. How does prolonged stress differ from, say, a single traumatic event?

• 26:29Tristin Engels?

  Great question. A single traumatic event is considered acute. In acute traumatic events, the body has a stress response. And afterward, the brain might replay that event and avoid reminders or remain hypervigilant. But often, the distress is tied to something specific. Prolonged stress is different. It isn't one overwhelming moment. It's repeated activation of the stress response over time. Three years is prolonged. The body stays in a sustained state of tension or anticipation. And when that happens, stress hormones like cortisol remain elevated longer than they should. And the sympathetic nervous system is activated more frequently.

• 27:14Tristin Engels?

  When it's prolonged, that contributes to increased reactivity, mistrust, and a tendency to interpret neutral stimuli as threatening. So essentially, prolonged stress can shift someone's baseline. Meaning, instead of the threat response activating only when danger is actually present, their system becomes more easily triggered by things that might not even be dangerous, but they're misinterpreting as such. Their brain is adapting to a world it has learned to experience as constantly and consistently stressful.

• 27:48Vanessa Richardson?

  Well, over the years, the study wore Ted down. However, he didn't tell anyone about the toll it had taken on him. No one knew he'd been subjected to prolonged abuse, and that it fed something dark within him. Since he didn't tell his family what he'd endured, they kept encouraging him on his current path. By early 1962, he'd passed all his final exams and was preparing to graduate at just 20 years old. But Ted despised the thought of being confined to academia. More than ever, all he wanted was to start a new life, to live off the land, rely solely on himself, and be under no one's control. But he had to put that dream on hold

• 28:33Vanessa Richardson?

  because the government was drafting young men into the Vietnam War, which Ted staunchly opposed. And the only way for him to avoid it was to pursue another degree. So after getting his master's at the University of Michigan, he stayed on to get a PhD in math.

• 28:51Tristin Engels?

  A couple of things I want to touch on here. Starting with why Ted kept what was happening to him in the study to himself. Aside from what we've already covered with regard to his views about this study and the possibility he felt the need to be compliant for identity and validation, he might have been afraid to say anything. He volunteered to be there. If he told his parents what he was enduring while in that study, they likely would have had him removed, and that would have taken away his agency. If he wanted to leave, he would. At the same time, he might not have fully understood what was happening to him was in fact harmful to him. It's not uncommon for people experiencing abuse to be unaware of it in the moment.

• 29:35Tristin Engels?

  But he was destabilized from it, like you said. It took a toll on him, and I think that was also impacted by how isolated he was. He had no one else reminding him of his value after spending years being cut down and humiliated. That's extremely disempowering. But he trusted the process because of who ran it and where, and he chose the study for himself. Which brings us to the next issue. He's once again feeling forced into academia to avoid being drafted into Vietnam. And after just setting a goal to live a life for himself, away from others, living off the land, under no one's control, now he's faced with two choices: be controlled

• 30:15Tristin Engels?

  by the US military or controlled by academia. Both are institutions. In his perspective, he was in a lose-lose conflict. Psychologically, repeated experiences of constrained choice can heighten sensitivity to autonomy, and we know he's had repeated experiences like this. So some individuals respond by adapting, others begin organizing their identity around resisting control altogether.

• 30:41Vanessa Richardson?

  In general, what mental and emotional risks are associated with someone making a life decision that's the lesser of two evils, instead of seeking help and just exploring other options?

• 30:54Tristin Engels?

  I think, for starters, it's important to highlight that Ted is clearly making this choice under pressure. And in normal circumstances, that's stressful, and stress narrows thinking. It activates threat-based processing, which can reduce just the flexibility of your thoughts and how you think. Instead of exploring other options, he's focusing on escaping the worst option. That can lead to reactive decisions rather than intentional ones. And when we consider how much stress he had been under for the last three years in the study, how his stress responses had been tested in harmful ways, and how he's been enduring this alone, not telling anybody this entire time, it's no wonder that he

• 31:38Tristin Engels?

  didn't consider alternative options, or even attempt to brainstorm with others, before choosing a choice that also doesn't feel right to him. Ted hasn't sought help or outside perspective ever, if you really think about it, at least that we know of. He hasn't had a strong support system outside from his younger brother. He's largely isolated himself and often defaulted to the decisions of others. He's already developing a view that the world is hostile, coercive, or controlling, and has been desiring to detach from it entirely. So at this point, because of this sort of forced choice he's feeling, he's at a greater risk now of growing deeper resentment and rigid self-reliance.

• 32:22Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted hated the path he was on, but he didn't make a huge effort to get off of it either. So his secret beliefs kept simmering, and all the while, the interrogator's voice lived on in his head, berating, demeaning, and taunting him. When Ted started his PhD program, he battled with the two competing sides of himself, one that excelled academically and one that rebelled against the very institutions that fostered his academic success. But eventually Ted learned that the system didn't have to hold him back from living his true values. In fact, it could help him make his dreams a reality. And for Ted, an ideal reality would mean total destruction.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  Did you know a volcano once blocked out the sun and accidentally gave us Frankenstein? Or that the most feared pirate in the Atlantic, the man who terrorized an entire ocean, may never have actually killed anyone? Hi, I'm Connor Tomlinson. You might know me from Love on the Spectrum. History is my thing and has been my whole life.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  And I'm Carter Roy, and this is What the Fact. Every week, we take three of the wildest true things ever recorded and tell you the whole story behind them. The facts that sound made up, the stories that got buried, the moments that changed everything. Carter brings the history. Connor brings the facts, the tangents, and the occasional British accent. The wildest stuff is real. And the real stuff is wilder than you think.

• 34:04Speaker 03

  New episodes every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

• 34:18Speaker 04

  The government gets a bad reputation, but did you know that the roads under your feet, the forecast on your phone, the letter in your mailbox, that's all government too? I'm Professor Lindsay Cormack, and I'm hosting a new podcast called "Government That Doesn't Suck", alongside Professor Greg Jackson, who you may know from the hit podcast "History That Doesn't Suck". Each episode, we dig into the surprising story of an American institution, from the origins of the internet to the National Park Service to the GI Bill, and so much more. You'll hear the stories behind them, plus a conversation with an expert who knows it inside and out. This is the real history of how we built the country under your feet, and you'll never look at any of it the same way again. Listen to and follow "Government That Doesn't Suck",

• 35:02Speaker 04

  available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:09Vanessa Richardson?

  In 1962, 20-year-old Ted Kaczynski graduated from Harvard and enrolled at the University of Michigan. He was weighed down by the abuse he endured during the study at Harvard, but he never told anyone about the distress and anger it had sparked in him. Instead, Ted dutifully went to class and kept making his parents proud. But even though he was studying math, Ted was more interested in other fields. In his spare time, he read about history and evolutionary theory. He wanted to better understand the world he was a part of, and his readings strengthened the ideas he'd been forming for years. That technology was the bane of human existence, and elite institutions

• 35:52Vanessa Richardson?

  used it to control the masses, with no regard for its negative impact on people's mental health or the planet. Ted was seeing things more clearly than ever. He refused to be a cog in the machine. Once he saved up enough money, he wanted to go off the grid completely. He didn't try to get to know his colleagues. They thought he was brilliant, but he didn't care. Just like when he was a kid, Ted would march straight home after class and crack open a book.

• 36:22Tristin Engels?

  And this is where the rigidity in his thinking starts to come in. If Ted was spending most of his time alone, reading and not really talking through his ideas with other people, then no one was challenging his thinking. And when you're alone with a belief for long enough, it can start to feel flawless to you. It makes sense to you. It feels logical or justified. And the problem is, without other perspectives, your thinking can get less flexible. And when flexibility decreases, strong beliefs can slowly shift into less of an opinion and more of a mission. And now isolation by itself doesn't create extremism, but it can remove the reality

• 37:03Tristin Engels?

  testing of other people that helps keep ideas like this grounded.

• 37:08Vanessa Richardson?

  Do you think Ted's worsening isolation and the fact that he is doubling down on his ideologies might be a post-traumatic stress response to his experience with the psychological study at Harvard?

• 37:19Tristin Engels?

  So I want to highlight what post-traumatic stress disorder is because it has specific criteria, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It's defined as exposure to a traumatic event, intrusive memories, flashbacks, like they're reliving the event, avoidance tied to that event, hyperarousal, and functional impairment linked to the trauma. And when we're talking about a traumatic event, it's usually a life-threatening event of some kind. In what we know publicly, there isn't any clear evidence that Ted demonstrated classic trauma symptoms in that structured way according to how we classify it. We know that the study was psychologically harmful to Ted, but for it to qualify for

• 38:02Tristin Engels?

  PTSD, at least diagnostically, it requires exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violence. Humiliation and psychological stress even prolonged doesn't automatically meet the clinical threshold for trauma as defined in the diagnostic criteria. And I want to make it very, very clear, I'm not undermining the harm that causes someone, nor am I saying it can't lead to PTSD. I'm speaking about Ted specifically. And in that regard, I I think a better way of framing this is that Ted had cumulative experiences beginning in adolescence that were adversarial or stressful and that likely caused mistrusted authority and sensitivity to control.

• 38:45Tristin Engels?

  The isolation is exacerbating this and doubling down on his ideologies was perhaps a way for him to find autonomy or control on his own terms. Without evaluating him personally, I can't say for sure that this is PTSD.

• 39:01Vanessa Richardson?

  Since Ted kept his beliefs to himself, no one realized he was forming a sinister plan. The more he read, the more he believed elite, high-tech institutions had to be destroyed and he should be the one to do it. For now, though, he had to keep saving money. So after he graduated from the University of Michigan in the late 1960s, Ted accepted a tenure-track role as a professor of mathematics at UC Berkeley. There, his beliefs continued to solidify, and after just two years, he resigned with no explanation. The reality was that he'd finally saved up enough to sever himself from the path he'd been forced onto his entire life.

• 39:46Vanessa Richardson?

  In June of 1971, Ted moved to Lincoln, Montana, where he built a small cabin in a remote, wooded area. His brother, David, helped him buy the plot of land where the cabin was located. Ted's home had no electricity, running water, or phone, and that was exactly how he liked it. This was not a temporary escape. Ted believed that withdrawing from modern society was the only way to avoid being controlled. He spent his time gardening, hunting, and reading, and he savored every minute of his newfound freedom. Ted's life went on like this for a few years, but by the mid 1970s, his own freedom wasn't enough.

• 40:30Vanessa Richardson?

  He'd been immersing himself into anti-tech philosophy, and the peace he'd found since going off the grid started to fade, as he realized, even though his life had changed, the rest of the world was still the same. Mega corporations were still destroying the planet, and world superpowers bombed innocent communities. Ted wouldn't stand for it any longer. So he started writing. He filled notebooks with long critiques of industrial society, a lot like the essays he'd written for the Harvard study, except this time, he wanted people to take him seriously.

• 41:08Tristin Engels?

  Well, Ted had what he thought he wanted, which was a fully self-reliant life. But for him, that level of isolation may have actually made things worse. Like we were just discussing, isolation can fuel rigid thinking. Without ongoing dialogue, beliefs don't get challenged, they intensify. If he was reading material that reinforced his beliefs, not engaging with alternative perspectives, and living in near-total isolation, it makes sense that his framework would grow more rigid and more extreme. That can shift someone like Ted from self-protection, which is what I think he was initially looking for, into moral urgency, especially if intelligence is central to his identity.

• 41:52Tristin Engels?

  If Ted saw himself as uniquely capable or uniquely perceptive, he may have begun to see himself as part of the solution to this perceived crisis. And we know how strongly he reacted to perceived control as well. In that moment, he may have started to realize that avoidance wasn't enough, and that now, the only way to truly be free from control was to confront it.

• 42:15Vanessa Richardson?

  Speaking of him possibly feeling he was uniquely capable, do you think Ted felt a lack of fulfillment now that he had less of an audience? He didn't have that study pounding on him? He had no one really reading his work?

• 42:28Tristin Engels?

  I think that's very possible. I always look for patterns. That's what I do. And when you look back, there's a recurring theme of Ted positioning his intelligence where it can be recognized or utilized. When he finished with STEM, he volunteered for the psychological study that we know specifically targeted exceptionally intelligent young men. To me, that suggests he was drawn to environments where his intellect was relevant, but also it was conducted in an environment that intellect was highly associated. It was Harvard. Later, when faced with the draft, he returned to academia rather than exploring alternative paths or even seeking guidance elsewhere.

• 43:08Tristin Engels?

  Again, he chose the domain where his intelligence gave him leverage, even though he hated it. Then he withdrew entirely, and he lived off the grid. But even there, he immersed himself in philosophy and theory. And now he's once again re-engaging intellectually through manifestos and ideological ideas. That raises the question of whether being intellectually exceptional wasn't just something he was, but something he needed to be or needed to at least be doing, which again strengthens the theory that this was part of his identity. And if recognition had been part of that pattern earlier in life, the absence of it and this level of isolation may have actually brought a different kind

• 43:51Tristin Engels?

  of dissatisfaction to his life now.

• 43:56Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted needed someone to understand how he felt. So he started sending his writing to his brother David, who was one of the few people he was still in touch with. David even sent Ted money sometimes so he could survive on his own in the cabin. And while he found Ted's essays somewhat alarming, he thought his brother was just expressing himself. David had no idea just how dangerous Ted's ideas were. When he wasn't writing, Ted searched for ways to prove his points to the rest of the world. Even though he hoped to publish his writing eventually, he knew that wouldn't be enough. He had to do something. And pretty soon, he realized the only way to gain the world's attention was to stoke fear.

• 44:39Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted taught himself to build explosives, but not like the ones he used to make as a kid in school. He wanted to inflict real harm, and he wanted to use technology to do it. Only then would people start to see it as the enemy, just like he did. He went to the library to do research and check out how-to manuals. Then he collected basic tools and materials like wood, fishing line, nails, tape, batteries, and wire. He made sure to only use scavenged or scrap material and everyday items. That way, the devices would be harder to track. Through trial and error, Ted taught himself what worked best. And by 1978, when Ted was 36 years old,

• 45:24Vanessa Richardson?

  he believed he finally created a potentially lethal bomb. Now, he just had to select a target.

• 45:34Vanessa Richardson?

  He set his sights on the most symbolic marks, like universities, scientific institutions, and scientists themselves. He gathered personal information on people and learned about their whereabouts and routines. And in May of that year, Ted Kaczynski committed his first act of terrorism. He wrapped a bomb in a brown paper bag and brought it with him as he traveled to the Midwest. His destination was the University of Illinois Chicago. But that's not where he wanted the bomb to ultimately end up. On the packaging, he'd written the name and return address for a man named Buckley Christ, who was an engineering professor at Northwestern University, just outside Chicago.

• 46:17Vanessa Richardson?

  Northwestern has always been known for its science and tech programs. And in Ted's opinion, Professor Christ was at the forefront of that oppressive movement. Once he arrived at the University of Illinois, Ted left the bomb somewhere on campus. When employees there found it, they sent it to Professor Christ, just like he'd planned. However, when the package arrived at Christ's office, he was suspicious. So instead of opening it, he called the campus police. Officer Terry Marker responded and opened the package. And when he did, the device exploded. Fortunately, Marker survived, although he was badly burned and shrapnel tore into his skin.

• 47:03Tristin Engels?

  It's such a stark contrast often for people to comprehend when they hear someone who's never harmed anybody suddenly shifts to sending a lethal bomb on a university campus that could have potentially killed or harmed more than one person. But the reality is, these shifts are rarely sudden, they're typically gradual. And when we zoom out and we look, Ted has gradually become more extreme in his beliefs throughout the years and during his isolation. And in those beliefs is dehumanization. If he truly believed technology was destroying humanity, then people like Professor Christ have been reduced to symbols rather than people. That shrinks empathy and it creates moral justification.

• 47:48Tristin Engels?

  If he believes that he was confronting a threat to mankind, then he can justify violence as intervention instead of it being what it really is, it's harm or aggression. We can really see how everything has led to this point and how his isolation and his lack of reality testing with others was likely the tipping point.

• 48:08Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted seemed to think the symbolism driving this act would be immediately obvious to others. Why do you think that is? Do you think his high intelligence affected his ego at all?

• 48:18Tristin Engels?

  I think honestly, it's because he'd been so isolated, not just physically, but emotionally, socially, and cognitively, that his beliefs likely started to feel universal to him. That's similar to what we call the false consensus effect, which is assuming that others see the world the same way that you do. And as for intelligence and ego, high intelligence doesn't automatically produce like traits of grandiosity and that kind of ego sense. But if intelligence has long been central to someone's identity, which I think in Ted's case, we can safely say was the case, and it's reinforced as their primary source of value, it can certainly shape how they perceive themselves.

• 48:58Tristin Engels?

  And from what we've discussed and what we know, I don't really see that Ted is vain or seeking admiration. What I see is someone who's deeply trusted his own reasoning. If he believed he was uniquely Capable of diagnosing this problem in society. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was arrogant. I think it means more so that he was intellectually overconfident. There's a difference between wanting to feel superior and believing that your analysis of what's going on is sound, and that can at times be hard to differentiate between the two.

• 49:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted wanted the world to know this was anarchy and for people to see how everyday technology could suddenly become a threat. However, his actions didn't have the intended effect. Authorities investigated the bombing and the story made national news. Ted kept tabs on the coverage, and he grew frustrated when he realized no one viewed the act as symbolic. Instead, people seemed to think it was completely random. There was no national panic, no debate about industrial society. Soon, the story faded from the headlines. Ted retreated back into himself, and eventually, his brother David could tell something was wrong.

• 50:16Vanessa Richardson?

  David had no idea what Ted had done, but in his letters, he seemed even more dejected and withdrawn than usual. David thought Ted could use more time in regular society, so in 1978, he invited him to return home to Illinois and offered him a job at a factory he managed. Surprisingly, Ted accepted, but the gig didn't last long. A female employee quickly caught Ted's eye. They briefly dated, but Ted didn't talk to her or try to get to know her. And when they broke up, Ted wrote crude and offensive limericks about her and taped them to the wall for everyone to see. When David was notified, he told Ted he had to let him go.

• 51:00Vanessa Richardson?

  After that, Ted went back to Montana. He and David stayed in touch through letters, but now there was tension between them. To Ted, this was proof that industrial society warped people's minds. So he went back to living in his cabin and continued studying how to build a lethal bomb. Ted wouldn't give up. He had to make sure that next time, he got his message across, and he wouldn't be ignored. One year later, he was ready to try again. He set his sights back on Northwestern so that people would understand the first attack wasn't random. This time, he used gift wrapping to conceal a pipe bomb and left it on campus himself.

• 51:44Vanessa Richardson?

  Ted chose a random spot, then quickly left the scene. Soon, a graduate student walked by and noticed what looked like a present someone had dropped accidentally. The grad student picked it up, and the bomb went off. The student was injured, but they survived. Just like before, the incident briefly made headlines, but it failed to stoke the level of fear Ted had wanted. He was growing more agitated, and soon Ted realized in his mind that in order to sow real panic, he couldn't just hurt one person at a time, he needed to cause large-scale casualties.

• 52:35Vanessa Richardson?

  Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time as we discuss how Ted Kaczynski grew into a full-on domestic terrorist.

• 52:43Tristin Engels?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at @CrimeHouse. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 53:06Vanessa Richardson?

  And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad-free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting bonus content.

• 53:24Vanessa Richardson?

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristin Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Camp, Sarah Bachelor, Ines Renique, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 53:59Tristin Engels?

  The police closed my sister's case in 2019. Last month, her killer commented on my post.

• 54:06Speaker 05

  On Reddit, true crime doesn't come from journalists. It comes from the victims, the witnesses, and sometimes the suspects themselves.

• 54:14Tristin Engels?

  People post the things they'd never say out loud. Anonymous, unfiltered, and completely real.

• 54:20Speaker 05

  And every Tuesday on Crimes of Reddit, we read them out loud.

• 54:23Tristin Engels?

  I'm Sabrina Deanna-Roga from Two Girls, One Ghost.

• 54:26Speaker 05

  And I'm Alexis Linkletter from The First Degree.

• 54:29Tristin Engels?

  Each week, one of us brings the most unhinged true crime stories the internet has to offer.

• 54:34Speaker 05

  And the other goes in completely blind. No prep, no spoilers, reacting in real time, same as you. And then we swap.

• 54:42Tristin Engels?

  And we pull every thread until the whole twisted picture comes into view.

• 54:46Speaker 05

  It's dark, it's messy. And the scariest part is that these are real stories, posted by real people.

• 54:52Tristin Engels?

  New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Crimes of Reddit, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 54:59Vanessa Richardson?

  If you're looking for your next podcast, check out What the Fact with Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum and Carter Roy. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from history and tell you the full story behind them. Follow What the Fact wherever you listen, or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.