We've Never Been Meaner. Here's Why.

BUY THE BOOK! The Power of Us by Jay J. Van Bavel and Dominic J. Packer https://amzn.to/4ch3Y23 Do you feel like people have become meaner and ruder recently? Does it sometimes feel like civility has left the building? If you feel that way, you are not alone. A recent study found that 53% of Americans believe society is uncivil while more than a third say they almost always or often see people behaving rudely when they go out in public. To get to the bottom of why this is happening and what we can do about it Oprah sits down with Dr. Jay Van Bavel who is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at New York University, and the director of the NYU Center for Conflict and Cooperation. He's also the coauthor of The Power of Us: Harnessing our Shared Identities to Improve Performance, Increase Cooperation, and Promote Social Harmony. Dr. Jay breaks down what is causing this rise in incivility and shares some ideas about how we can all do better. Oprah and Dr. Jay are also joined by a flight attendant, an emergency medicine doctor, a fast food worker, a barista and several influencers who talk about the extreme levels of rudeness they have experienced at work and online. 00:00:00 - Oprah and why did we get so mean? 00:03:50 - Welcome Dr. Jay Van Bavel author of “The Power of Us” 00:05:20 - How our environment makes us meaner 00:10:30 - How AI harms our relationships 00:12:00 - Why are people mean on planes? 00:14:00 - Flight attendant Cher shares 00:17:30 - What can we do everyday? 00:19:30 - The most dangerous profession 00:24:50 - Is reality TV normalizing bad behavior? 00:26:33 - We are in this together 00:28:00 - When you’re the target of anger 00:30:00 - Dealing with confrontation 00:33:40 - Impatience and meanness 00:35:30 - Dealing with mean comments 00:39:50 - Oprah reading negative letters 00:45:50 - Can things change? Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Why does it seem like people are so mean these days? Have you all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner, like civility has left the building. So what is going on?

• 0:11Speaker 01

  The environment around us has changed, and it's triggering us to be mean.

• 0:15Oprah Winfrey?

  I was so surprised to read this, that healthcare is America's most dangerous profession due to workplace violence. And you've had things thrown at you, is what I'm saying.

• 0:27Speaker 02

  Oh, 100%. A patient broke my nurse's hand.

• 0:30Oprah Winfrey?

  There's something about flying that seems to bring out just the worst in people. What's the worst thing somebody's said to you?

• 0:37Speaker 03

  I had a gentleman that said to me, "I violate women like you."

• 0:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. So what is the path forward? Can you give us a reason to hope that things are going to get better?

• 0:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I have lots of answers to that.

• 0:50Oprah Winfrey?

  I know you do.

• 0:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining me on the Oprah Podcast. A heartfelt welcome to this audience, who all look so great and worked on looking great this morning. Congratulations to yourselves.

• 1:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Really impressed. I had a conversation on this podcast, actually, with Kristin Cabot. Many of you may have seen it. She's the woman who was on that Coldplay Kiss Cam video that went viral all over the world. So viral. I mean, when they told me that it had 300 billion views, I couldn't believe it because I was like, well, there's only 8 billion people on the planet. How does 300 billion people see it? Apparently, people were passing it around and sharing it and sharing. And she told me about the, just the deluge of vitriol that was directed at her online, which obviously was bad enough. But people also had the nerve, after her address was put on the radio,

• 1:54Oprah Winfrey?

  to drive by her house and even walk up to her in public in front of her children to verbally attack her, just saying mean, awful things. And of course, as we talked about on that show, she even received death threats. Okay. And I feel so strongly, y'all can say what you want, but I feel strongly that she did not deserve that on any level for being out with her boss. Okay? So after talking with Kristin, I kept wondering, what is happening to us in this world? Why does it seem like people are so mean these days? Have you all noticed? It feels like people have gotten meaner, right? Like civility has left the building.

• 2:37Oprah Winfrey?

  And then I found out I'm not alone in feeling this way. Take a look.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Y'all, I just got out of Target, and I'm about to lose my freaking mind. People are so rude.

• 2:51Speaker 04

  What's wrong with people?

• 2:54Speaker 04

  We have lost all sense of humanity and compassion.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  We have. We've lost it. I don't understand mean people. I don't understand how you wake up in the morning, and your first thought is, how do I be as mean as possible today?

• 3:07Speaker 05

  I can't stand mean people. Go to therapy. Take a pottery class. Go hug a tree. I don't know. But sort out your issues.

• 3:15Speaker 06

  I mean, like, people don't hold doors anymore. They don't say, "Please, thank you, you're welcome." People don't hear how they speak to you, how they make you feel. Everybody's just so insensitive. And I can't understand what happened. Like, what made everybody like this?

• 3:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. That's exactly what we're asking today. So, you know, there's a recent study that found that 53% of Americans believe that society is uncivil. More than a third say that they almost always or often see people behaving rudely when they go out in public. And to help us understand what is at the root of this, I'm joined by Dr. Jay Van Bavel. Now, he says, I can call him Dr. Jay.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:55Oprah Winfrey?

  You're the other one.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:56Oprah Winfrey?

  The other one. So that's what we're going to be doing today. Dr. Jay is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at New York University and the director of the NYU Center for Conflict and Cooperation. He's also the co-author of "The Power of Us." "The Power of Us." Great title, right? "The Power of Us: Harnessing Our Shared Identities to Improve Performance, Increase Cooperation, and Promote Social Harmony."

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me, Oprah.

• 4:28Oprah Winfrey?

  So what is going on?

• 4:30Speaker 01

  I'm a social psychologist. So what that means to me is, what in our environments have changed? Because...

• 4:36Oprah Winfrey?

  A social psychologist, it means you study this stuff.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I study this stuff. I do research on this and have been studying it for 20 years. And the main lesson when you see this is not that humans have become meaner. Human nature has not really changed in the last decade or more.

• 4:50Oprah Winfrey?

  It has not.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  It has not. And so when you see people becoming meaner to one another, including online, what you have to understand is that the environment around us has changed, and it's triggering us to be mean and lack a sense of civility towards one another.

• 5:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so if it's triggering us to be mean, that means they've become meaner?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Our behaviors become meaner. Our human nature has not changed. And so what that means is...

• 5:14Oprah Winfrey?

  We're basically good?

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Well, we can be better. If you change the environment, people will be less mean.

• 5:20Oprah Winfrey?

  So people are being mean because of the environment?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, explain that.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Okay. So there's lots of reasons why people become mean or lack civility. One of it is when you're under stress. So like, when people are struggling financially,

• 5:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  that is something that can trigger them to lash out more. They're under a lot of cognitive distress when that's happening. They're thinking about it all the time. They have a hard time regulating themselves. So that's kind of what's bubbling up from a lot of people. They're facing stressors in their own life that have increased.

• 5:51Oprah Winfrey?

  But this isn't the first time in the world that people have faced stressors. I mean, people went through the Depression, and people were still kind to each other and trying to help their neighbors and had the attitude of, like, if you're in trouble, then your family's in trouble. We're going to help your family. I mean, I... Okay, so...

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Okay, so you're 100% right. So we've faced these other stressors before and haven't acted this way. Okay, so...

• 6:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  So the stressors are increasing, but then what's happening in our social environment? And the things that are happening is there's less of a sense of us, a sense of common connection and purpose. And so people are more disconnected and isolated than ever. They're rewarded for that when they go online. There's not really a strong sense of treating somebody who's different than you as part of your community. And then the other thing is that our norms have eroded, that we see other people acting like this, and that makes it more acceptable for us to do it. And so when you talk, tell about the story of Kristin Cabot,

• 6:50Speaker 01

  no one might have done that. But once they see, you know, tens or hundreds or thousands of other people mocking her, ridiculing her, shaming her, they feel an urge to do it, too. Partly, it's because human nature is we look to other people like us to see what they're doing, and then we do the same thing.

• 7:07Oprah Winfrey?

  So is it also because of, I mean, social media gets blamed for a lot of things, but is it also because of the anonymity involved in social media? That you can say mean things, act however you want to act, and nobody actually knows who you are?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a few things in social media. So one of it is you can be really mean as an anonymous person. You can troll others. And some people do that. But a lot of people are actually doing it under their own name, from their own accounts. And part of the reason they do it is because one of the things that gets rewarded on social media is expressing moral outrage.

• 7:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  And so some people are feeling moral outrage. They're projecting their own issues into the situation. But other people are seeing the outrage and feeling like, oh, I better express mine so I signal that I'm a good person. That's where you start to get the pylon, where you say 300 billion people saw it, and there's this massive pylon. It's because of all of these things kind of getting amplified. And then you have technology, the algorithms are amplifying whatever's driving engagement.

• 8:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I thought it was interesting that a celebrity, this is Doja Cat, recently was talking about Timothy Chalamet and then later posted that she shouldn't have been talking about Timothy Chalamet. Did you all see that post? She then said, you know, "I shouldn't have even been posting about that because what I really needed was a hug."

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:24Oprah Winfrey?

  "And what I really needed was, you know..." And that she was doing that to show her moral outrage because she thought she would get a lot of people who would be supporting that.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:36Oprah Winfrey?

  And I thought that was really brave of her, insightful of her, and a really, a great sense of self-awareness to actually say that. Because most people do it, and they don't even know that's why they're doing it.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 8:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  They either don't know that's why they're doing it, or they don't want to admit it.

• 8:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. So you say that life in America today is like being a child in a family where the parents are constantly fighting. And I remember many years ago hearing an expert say that when you fight in front of your children, you change who they are.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:10Oprah Winfrey?

  So how is that affecting us if we are like a child in a family where the parents are constantly fighting?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so what we're talking about there is the psychological impact and the stress that causes on kids. And so when kids are in a home where the parents are fighting all the time, it causes them stress. You can measure it in their physiology. But also, they become very sensitive to anything that might be distressing in their environment. They see threats that might not even be there. And so they're hyper-attuned to potential threats. And so when you live in a universe where the parents are always fighting with one another, that causes us stress, but it also makes us hypersensitive to seeing threats in our environment.

• 9:50Oprah Winfrey?

  And the reason we feel that way is because we're surrounded by it everywhere, right? You turn on the news, and it causes a sense of tension. And even though you don't think you're taking it in, it allows you to be stressful.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  It's not only stressful, but then it's a role model. So one of the big things we talk about with parents is how they become good role models. If our leaders in society are acting like that, then also we are more likely to think it's acceptable ourselves.

• 10:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely. So I understand that there's a new Stanford study found that AI chatbots are actually making people behave worse in real life. How is that possible?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Okay, so we just talked about social media as one technology and engagement-based algorithms amplifying this. Okay, so now let's talk about the new technology.

• 10:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  The fastest-growing technology in human history is artificial intelligence. Just out of curiosity, how many people here have talked to a chatbot? Okay, so you have like 90, 80% of people in this room. Chatbots are also designed to keep us engaged.

• 10:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  And so, one of the features this new study found that you mentioned is that they are 50% more sycophantic than real humans. So if you're interacting with a chatbot, it's gonna tell you you're brilliant, you're right. Okay, so what is the consequences of that? We've heard about these delusions and mental health spirals from people. Um, but it can actually harm our relationships.

• 11:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  So, uh, the study that you mentioned, they find that if you're talking about, let's say, conflict in your family or with a good friend, and you're asking your chatbot for advice.

• 11:18Oprah Winfrey?

  It's gonna agree with you.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  It agrees with you, and so you-

• 11:20Oprah Winfrey?

  It's gonna tell you you're right.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  It tells you you're right, and so if you know you're right, then you're not gonna make an effort to repair the relationship. And we also studied in my lab at NYU, and what we find is if you're talking about value-based issues, it tells you you're right, and then you become more extreme and more overconfident in your beliefs. And the other thing, and this is the worst part, Oprah, is that, um, people don't even see it. They have a blind spot to it, because everybody loves to hear how brilliant they are, and when they hear that, they're thinking, "Oh, of course."

• 11:49Oprah Winfrey?

  It just affirms them.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just affirms them.

• 11:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Affirms them, yeah. We did a whole podcast on this. People are, you know, falling in love with their chatbot.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Unfortunately, people are also harming themselves because of their chatbot, so... There's something about flying, though, that seems to bring out just the worst in people, and it didn't always be that way. I'm, I'm old enough to have been in the air where people actually dressed up to go on flights. It was such a big deal to be on a flight, like you're wearing gloves and dressing up and stuff. Not anymore, people barely bathe.

• 12:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. So, the Department of Transportation reports that the number of unruly passenger events has doubled since 2019, with one in five flight attendants reporting experiencing physical incidents. Watch this.

• 13:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. Why, why does it show up on, on, on airplanes so much?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Okay, so airplanes are not the internet. What's happening on airplanes, this is real life. So, I said, "The situation is different," right, from when you flew, and when I remember flying my first few times, you never saw anything like this. And so what's happening is that something has changed in their environment. And what I would say is, first of all, if you're on a flight, a lot of the seats have gotten smaller and smaller. Someone mentioned, "We're all in this tin can together." So it's a, it's a distressing experience. Now, I'm gonna tell you about a study, Oprah, that kind of explains a little bit of the new situation. The research finds, this is a great study, they find if people enter a plane and they have to walk past all the first-class seats before they get to theirs, they're far more likely to experience air rage. So what is it that's triggering it? What is it that's triggering it?

• 14:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  They're seeing, "Oh, these people have way more than me."

• 14:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  And then I'm crammed in this tiny seat, and that is more likely to make them feel resentful and frustrated and lash out.

• 14:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. Well, Cher knows this very well, the other Cher.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Hey, Cher.

• 14:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, Cher's been a flight attendant for seven years, and those videos ring true for you?

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, yes. Um, aviation has not been exempt from the decline in civility. I say I make the best dinner party guests because I have so many stories. Um, and I've come across behavior that has just left me speechless. Um, I've had an incident with a gentleman that, while we were conducting cabin service, he needed to use the restroom, and typically, you know, we'll pass their row or try to back up to let them use the restroom, especially, you know, once the seatbelt signs off. He went back to his seat, didn't give us a chance to move, and after we had finished service, maybe 20 minutes later, he came to the front galley and was really irate, and he was holding a cup.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  And flight attendants have some spidey senses because we've seen it all, and I asked, "Sir, what is that?" And, including foul language, he said, "It's pee." Um, and he was in a middle seat on a full flight, so I don't know, the people next to him didn't complain, um, but he took his cup and dumped it out in the lavatory sink. And I was left, I mean, with nothing to say. All I could say is, "Sir, you can't do that." That's the only thing I could get out of my mouth. I was just so shocked. Um, and yeah, stories like that, unfortunately, I have plenty of them.

• 15:43Oprah Winfrey?

  So what do you do when you're in a situation where somebody is unruly or potentially violent or upset? What do you do? What are, what are you all trained to do?

• 15:52Speaker 03

  We are trained to diffuse, that's our number one priority, is diffuse the situation. And I think a lot of the time, people feel outraged because they wanna be heard, and usually with an average person that's maybe upset, they missed their previous flight. You have to assume they've been through really tumultuous situations. I pretty much try to assume on every flight that I work that you have someone that's going to a wedding, going to a baby shower, you have someone that's going to a funeral. You can't, you have to assume that they're going through something when they're traveling, and that's usually true. So when it comes to handling them, I try to make them feel heard, and obviously, we have limits because there's safety rules and there's other things. You can't make everyone happy.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Um, but I try to give two choices that are both, you know, something that's allowed and allow them to feel like they have a little bit of the control bag. That typically helps, but with situations like that, I mean, we were moving out of the way to let him use the lavatory, but it didn't make a difference. He was gonna do-

• 16:50Oprah Winfrey?

  What's the worst thing somebody said to you?

• 16:52Speaker 03

  I had a gentleman that, through another incident, he said to me, "I violate women like you."

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 16:59Speaker 03

  And that was really, that was one that, I mean, left me speechless, and he suffered, we had law enforcement involved in that, and he suffered no consequences for his actions.

• 17:10Oprah Winfrey?

  "I violate women like you."

• 17:11Speaker 03

  That was his first response to me, yeah.

• 17:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 17:14Speaker 03

  And it just gives you chills, like you just don't expect, you're locked in a metal tube-

• 17:19Oprah Winfrey?

  He got you.

• 17:19Speaker 03

  -with someone like that, and, you know, you do your best to vet them at the door, but you don't know who they are, what they're going through when they come on board, so...

• 17:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Do you have a question for Dr. Jay?

• 17:29Speaker 03

  So I guess I try to look at things in a really positive light. Um, and as somebody that wants to spread positivity, and I'm in a position where I get to meet so many people and spread positivity, what is something that I can do to help with the decline of civility?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so first of all, those stories are awful, no one should have to deal with that. I, I just really, I cringed with the first story and gasped with the second.

• 17:52Oprah Winfrey?

  I'm glad the pee stayed in the cup. I thought he was gonna throw it at her.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. It did go in the sink, but-

• 17:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I thought he was gonna throw the pee out.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  I was more worried about the people sitting next to him when he filled the cup.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  So, so first of all, you get to touch a lot of people's lives because you're dealing with people all day long, huge groups of them. And so I think the first thing, obviously, because you're stuck in this tin can, is, is de-escalate these situations. I, I, I can see the challenge of, you do not wanna up-escalate, you saw all the videos of what happens when that, that unfolds. But I think the best you can do is try to, uh, you know, make a positive impression on all of the other people. The other thing you might be able to do, so when I saw the videos and I've seen these debates and videos go viral on social media where people are fighting about whether they can, like, push back their chair or not, that gets to my, one of my first points to Oprah about norms. The reason you have those presumably is because the airplane wants to let you do that, that's part of what you're paying for.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  But if people don't think that's acceptable, they're gonna push back against it. They're fighting against the fact that they don't really see that as a norm anymore. And so I think one of the things you can really control as a flight attendant and people who are, like, running the airplane, is really making it clear what the norms are about how the flight, the staff should be treated, but also how you will treat them and how they should treat one another. And I think, like, making those very clear is one of the most powerful, powerful things you can do to really kind of change behavior in a positive way.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  Awesome.

• 19:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. God bless you.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 19:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Every day.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  I love what I do.

• 19:22Oprah Winfrey?

  That actually helps, right? It actually helps. Thank you, Cher. Uh, this is the thing, I was so surprised to read this, that healthcare is America's most dangerous profession.

• 19:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Due to workplace violence. In fact, there's a staggering, 76% of healthcare workers have reported experiencing violence on the job. And Dr. Bumi Patel is an emergency medicine doctor, and I thank you for being here. We, we did not know this. Did we know that- But you do.

• 19:56Speaker 07

  I know, I know.

• 19:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Seventy-six percent?

• 20:00Speaker 07

  Seventy-six percent, and...

• 20:03Oprah Winfrey?

  That's three-quarters of the healthcare workers.

• 20:05Speaker 07

  Three-quarters of the healthcare workers.

• 20:08Oprah Winfrey?

  I thought flight attendants had it bad.

• 20:09Speaker 07

  No, no, no, not at all.

• 20:10Oprah Winfrey?

  This is worse.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  No.

• 20:11Oprah Winfrey?

  And I'm really so surprised, but I have one of my South African daughter-girls is a doctor at University of Pennsylvania, doing her residency. And she says that she's going to move into oncology because the experience of being a resident has taught her that it's the cancer patients who actually are the most grateful.

• 20:34Speaker 07

  Absolutely.

• 20:34Oprah Winfrey?

  And everybody else treats you like...

• 20:37Speaker 07

  Absolutely, absolutely. So what is happening in the world? I mean, let's take a look before the pandemic. I know you had a chance to speak to our former Surgeon General, Dr. Murphy. And he pointed it very accurately that we are in a loneliness pandemic. But that's just a very small portion.

• 20:57Oprah Winfrey?

  But what are they doing to the healthcare workers? That's what we're all shocked that it's seventy-six percent.

• 21:01Speaker 07

  That's all connected. We're in a loneliness pandemic. But the healthcare workers saw the mental health pandemic coming ages before COVID did. People were hurting. People are not only physically getting sicker, mentally they're in a lot of crisis and they don't have the support outside in the communities. So healthcare becomes your front lines. Emergency departments become your front lines for mental health care. You're already stressed. Cortisol levels are running high. You're hyper vigilant because your environment is already a threat. Now imagine coming to the most chaotic location possible, your emergency departments for your care.

• 21:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 07

  I see sixty hurt people in a day. I have five minutes to learn your story. That's not enough for you to tell me exactly what your body has been through all these years, what your brain and your psyche has been through all these years. You're already hurt. And now you feel like I don't see you, I don't hear you, I don't validate you. You're gonna snap.

• 22:06Oprah Winfrey?

  And is that because you, meaning the healthcare workers, are overworked and don't have enough people to service all the people that need helping? This trend to be violent to healthcare workers, is that something new?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I mean, that was the first time I've heard of those data, with the violence, just the sheer level of violence, Dr. Patel. But I will say that all the things you mentioned as kind of precursors are things that I'm aware about.

• 22:32Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  So the rise in mental health problems, the lack of treatment and resources for those, those are happening at university campuses. I see it with my undergraduate students in my class. And then you talked about they're coming in with pain. And then there's also a level of dehumanization because they have this image of these healthcare workers from COVID where they're all masked up. And I'm a New Yorker, so I remember during that wave of, first wave of the pandemic where everybody was a hero. We were leaning out of our windows, trapped in our apartments, cheering at like 7:00 PM, banging pots and pans.

• 23:04Oprah Winfrey?

  So what happened?

• 23:06Speaker 01

  So the problem is you're understaffed.

• 23:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  And that's not your fault, that's a problem with the system. But a problem is also the norms. Again, I gave a talk and a workshop in Canada to over a thousand doctors and nurses and healthcare staff, and then I met with them after. And the stories they told me about things like conspiracy theories and misinformation, they now don't trust their doctors or their nurses. You give them advice and they don't even believe it. And all the medical health staff told me...

• 23:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Conspiracy theories, yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  That's a whole rabbit hole.

• 23:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  But a lot of medical staff that I talk to are not even trained to deal with that because they're used to being, we're the experts, you come to us for treatment, you take our advice and we help you. And this causes all kinds of conflict and friction in all of their interactions. And then the people there lash out.

• 23:54Oprah Winfrey?

  You've had things thrown at you and people...

• 23:56Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. My colleagues have bared the brunt of this. I can tell you a story of my nurse, of what IV doesn't hurt when you get an IV placed in you. A patient broke my nurse's hand, fractured it because his IV hurt. And then, of course, my nurse became my patient and I had to tend to her hand. She was out of work for over ninety days. We're already understaffed.

• 24:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 24:20Speaker 07

  Yeah. She needs her hand to take care of patients.

• 24:23Oprah Winfrey?

  And you've had things thrown at you, is what I'm saying.

• 24:24Speaker 07

  Oh, 100%. That's, you know, it's become so commonplace that, like verbal abuse, racial slurs, what she said, you know, "I violate women like you," that's common, that so common that we've become immune to it, that we don't even report it anymore because it's so common. It's a daily occurrence for some of my nurses and I.

• 24:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Do you think, I mean, listen, there's no one thing to blame, but I think, I don't know if some of the shows we watch on television, you know, those shows where the women are pulling each other's hair out and calling each other "you bitches" and things, whether or not that had an influence on us feeling, people feeling like they can say anything and do anything.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  This is exactly the issue. The more we see those images and people absorb them, the more they think it's acceptable to do that. And I want to just like say, when I think of healthcare workers, that's like a really altruistic job. You're putting your life on the line to save people's lives.

• 25:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  If that, if we get, you know, I've seen the data on medical doctors and nurses burnout, they're dropping out of the profession because it no longer becomes worth it.

• 25:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yep.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  That affects our whole health as a society.

• 25:38Oprah Winfrey?

  It's not worth it if people are throwing things at you and you're trying to help them.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  No way.

• 25:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes, yes. And how has it changed your perspective about what you do, Dr. Patel?

• 25:46Speaker 07

  You know, it hasn't because I understand his research. I understand human nature has not fundamentally changed. I agree with that research, even on ground levels. I understand that people's...

• 25:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Human nature hasn't changed, it's our environment.

• 26:00Speaker 07

  It's our environment. People post COVID, came back even more sicker. Their public, their physical health concerns were not addressed for almost two years. Mental health crises were rising. Now you're coming back into an environment where you've lost a lot of your doctors and nurses. So the time you're getting is even shorter. So I understood the environment changed and it changed for the worse.

• 26:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so what are we gonna do about it? How are we gonna, how do we unite the power of us to change this?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Well, I think the broader issue for me, because we're now talking about airplanes, internet, social media, we're talking about the medical environment. I think we need to really realize that this is a broader societal issue, that we need to create a sense that we're all in it together, that we all are part of the same community, that you are doing a service to help us, whether you're helping me fly somewhere, or you're helping me get treated, or my family get treated. You know, one of the most important ways of thinking about this that I get from the research that I've done and we describe in our book, is the way people think about the world is they have a moral circle. And people inside that moral circle you support and care for and cooperate with, and people outside of it are outsiders, and we do not necessarily care.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  We'll walk by them if they're in pain on the street. But the research shows, and we describe this in our book, that people have flexible moral circles. You can get people to think of themselves in a broader scope, in a broader sense of identity. And once you do that, they will stop and help the person who's suffering. And so I think a big part of it is we have to change people's minds to get them to realize and understand and constantly be thinking about it, that we're all in it together. And if we forget about that, our healthcare system starts to fall apart. It becomes dangerous to fly. We can't post something online without getting harassed. And so that's a broader issue, and all of us have a role in it. We all role model it. It's how we talk, it's how we treat other people, but it also has to come from our leaders.

• 28:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you.

• 28:07Oprah Winfrey?

  American workers report experiencing 212 million acts of workplace incivility every single day. I like that it's 212 and not 210 or 200. 212 million acts of workplace incivility every single day. So that's baristas and fast food workers are often the target of people's anger and frustration. So we have a guest here today. Aiden, tell us, what is your story?

• 28:38Speaker 04

  So I've been in the fast food industry for almost two years now, and I've actually found that when people come in, they're usually either already frustrated or angry, that might have nothing to do with you. And even when I try to do my best to help them, sometimes it's just simply not enough. I remember an instance that I had, actually my first week. And it was a couple, and I don't know if it was a first date type of situation, but he went to pay and the card did not go through. And...

• 29:09Oprah Winfrey?

  He took it out on you.

• 29:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I notified him of this, and he just started cussing at me, yelling some very unkind things. The woman next to him is like, looking at him like he's kind of crazy. And I'm just like...

• 29:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Because he knows that date's over.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  There's no second date.

• 29:35Oprah Winfrey?

  You cannot come back from the credit card not going through at a fast food restaurant on your first date. He knows that's over, so...

• 29:47Speaker 04

  And, you know, even like when I'm working at the cash register or the drive-thru, I always make sure... I'm good at communicating. You have to make sure you're kind. I've even seen people, they've had thrown food at their feet and they yelled that they're never going to come back. And my question to Dr. J is, what is the best way to deal with confrontation professionally and in the workspace?

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so first of all, your story's horrific and funny, but terrifying. You're dealing with these people who are escalating because of something in their own life, right? Again, it goes back to they're facing a stress. But again, the historical way of dealing with that is like, you're embarrassed, you try to clear the bill and you move on. You don't upscale the conflict. And so you're now in a situation where you're dealing with this person escalating or you're gonna throw their food at you in the other cases. And so I think like the lessons that Cher told us about what happens in an airplane is first of all, de-escalate the situation as much as you can. Because some people, when they get in a what's called a hot state, where they're angry or frustrated, they actually, it's trouble, it's difficult for them to reason and be

• 30:53Speaker 01

  mature and regulate their emotions.

• 30:55Oprah Winfrey?

  They can't, they can't even hear you anymore.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and some people have, you know, what they do in anger management is they, they tell you to count down from 10 or 20. And so you're gonna have to do that job for them to de-escalate. Okay, the second thing I would say to do is have a sense of solidarity with your other staff. When something like this happens, all back each other up.

• 31:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  And again, this is about the power of us, right? It's, it's, they're gonna be less likely to escalate against you.

• 31:22Oprah Winfrey?

  That's chapter seven, finding solidarity.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Finding solidarity.

• 31:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  And, and this can be something that you, you should be discussing this with your coworkers beforehand.

• 31:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  That this is our strategy. Any one of us faces abuse, all of us come and provide support because someone's gonna be less likely to escalate against you if there's five people now standing beside you all having your back.

• 31:39Oprah Winfrey?

  That's good.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  And that's gonna signal to them.

• 31:42Oprah Winfrey?

  There should be an escalation button. Eclasia is happening, yes.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And it could be your manager, but also just be your coworkers and then you do the same for them. And if you do that, it's gonna de-escalate things, but, and it's gonna make it way more risky for them to throw their fries or whatever at you. They're gonna think twice about that now. And then the other thing is, you're gonna have a greater sense of solidarity and camaraderie at your work if you know everybody's got your back. And so even when you face these kind of hostile environments, it's gonna be a powerful signal to people that it's not accepted here. None of us will tolerate it and all of us have each other's back. And that's gonna be a place that when other people see that, they're gonna be less likely to escalate too. So it could have a powerful influence on changing the norms of your workplace.

• 32:27Oprah Winfrey?

  I would also say that because that is such a humiliating moment, that maybe one of the things you all can be trained to say is, you know, I'm sorry, you know, the card, you know, is not, not, not accepting it at this time. There may be something wrong with the machine, but it's not accepting your card. That's, you know what I mean? Because, because the guy then feels like maybe it's the machine and it's not me. Yeah, the person feels like maybe it's the machine. Yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  So since that instance, I usually ask, is it locked? To kind of give them an idea of like, it's not going through. And usually they like go on their phone and kind of fix it. And then that kind of diffuses it and I just talk calmer, be kind, always smile.

• 33:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Yeah, you're doing good, Aiden. Yeah.

• 33:16Oprah Winfrey?

  You're doing good. That's, so Kaylee, what's your story?

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Well, I've been a barista for over 10 years now, which, yeah, it's a lot. I've had a lot of experiences dealing with people. And I just feel like everyone is a little bit impatient, like they don't wanna wait, you know, at all for anything.

• 33:35Oprah Winfrey?

  That's true. We've been trained by our phones, instant this, instant response, instant, nobody wants to wait for anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 03

  I've had instances, instances where people kind of get in my face, or I've actually had some guy, he threw like a half cup of iced coffee across the room and it hit me and my coworkers. You know, I have people that really make it worthwhile every day that treat us like friends. So I think that, that is what keeps you going. But I think, you know, everything you say and do, it kind of affects other people.

• 34:07Oprah Winfrey?

  So you've noticed that people are meaner?

• 34:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think there's just the patience thing and I just feel like people don't treat us like we're actual human beings sometimes. Like if we make a mistake, it's just, you know.

• 34:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Like you're just there to serve them and?

• 34:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little bit. So that's kind of hard, I think, you know, over time.

• 34:27Oprah Winfrey?

  They don't understand the power of us.

• 34:30Oprah Winfrey?

  They don't understand the power of us. Thank you so much for sharing. Well, like our next guest, more than half of Americans have been harassed on social media. Let's watch this short clip.

• 34:41Speaker 04

  Is it me or has everybody gotten like insanely mean? Like super duper mean? It's to the point where I have a friend who's afraid to like post pictures of her online and do stuff online because of how mean people are. She posted a picture of herself one time on Twitter and she's a happy set girl. And like the comments were crazy, but she sent me like a picture of her DM and like somebody told her to herself. I don't know what's in the water, but it's like, everybody is just so mean. I think it's because people are miserable in real life. So they get on the internet and they finally are able to punch down on people.

• 35:24Speaker 04

  This is the only power some people have in their life. Like this is the only way they can feel better about themselves.

• 35:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, Amber, yeah. Did you have a question?

• 35:35Speaker 04

  I've dealt with some very mean comments online. I love doing TikTok. I love like doing little dances and stuff. And I've had comments behind fake pages that were horrendous, that I wouldn't even think of. I just feel like it is a point where people are kind of disconnected because you were on a phone and it's like a, you can just say it and get away with it and nobody can know you're doing it. I had one comment where someone called me a hog and I was at my tiniest, but they called me a hog and it caused me to exercise excessively, restrict calories. Till this day, that comment was three years ago and it's still, I still till this day, like, how many calories is this? Or I gotta work out 45 minutes to lose this amount of calories. I just ate this, like, and I do it unconsciously now.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  And I didn't do that prior to that comment. How do you deal with, how do you not take it personal?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Let me say first, I'm, that's awful that you had to deal with that, that anybody has to deal with it. And I, I think you understand it. When I saw your video, there was a great, like a lot of insight there about these are hurt people, they're lashing out to feel better about themselves.

• 36:39Speaker 04

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  And so they're belittling you or anybody. I, and why you're feeling it, that pain, three years later, is something also about our basic psychology. There's a basic effect that is bad is stronger than good. So for every 10 positive comments, the one negative will stick with you.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  And it's crazy because I've gotten plenty of positive comments, but I remember that one comment more than any other positive comment.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  And I feel the same way when I get my end of semester teaching evaluations.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  And some of those have stuck in my mind for years later. So like, I, I just wanna like empathize with you that that's basic human psychology. What you're going through is not unusual. Okay, so how do you deal with it? The first thing I want to say is, we should deal with this at the source because the people doing this are causing an enormous amount of distress and mental health issues and, and chaos to other people's life. The research on this shows actually the people who post those type of comments, it's often a small number of people. But the difference of online a little bit is that if you're walking around on the street in New York, you know, if someone wants to harass other people, they can harass a couple and before long the cops are gonna come get them.

• 37:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Online, they can do this to hundreds of people in a given day. And like you said, they, they put that there and then they just moved on and did it to someone else.

• 37:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  And, and so that is a part of the design of social media is the small, it's a small number of people who are doing most of the chaos. You know, when we think of misinformation, we just talked about that in the healthcare system, 0.1% of people spread 80% of the misinformation online. Yeah.

• 38:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Really?

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 38:19Oprah Winfrey?

  0.1%?

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Are spreading 80% of the misinformation?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  But they're posting a lot. So those people are posting all day long.

• 38:28Oprah Winfrey?

  They've made it their job.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  They've made it their job to push this. But, but it causes chaos for all of the rest of us in our life or harassment. And so I think there's lots of things you can do that are within your powers. Obviously, like you can block comments, you can mute and block people. And I've started to do that very liberally because I'm on social media too.

• 38:47Oprah Winfrey?

  I don't even have comments anymore because people just say the meanest, craziest things. And all the people get together and they're like.

• 39:04Oprah Winfrey?

  That's why I don't have comments.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  That sums it up right there.

• 39:07Oprah Winfrey?

  That's it, that's it.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so it's like, for any of us who are gonna live online now, if you're like, if you enjoy it, you're, you have a creative instinct. So for many people, it's related to their career now to be online.

• 39:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  And so you have to create a bubble around you that's gonna block those types of things from reaching you. Because I think the moment they reach you, they're stuck in your mind for three years.

• 39:29Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:30Oprah Winfrey?

  I will tell you this, I was thinking this because, you know, as, yes, we don't, we don't have comments, that's why you don't have comments even as you're watching this podcast, because people just get so, the vitriol got to be so bad, we just stopped it. But I remember back in the day, I was thinking this the other day when I was feeling this whole thing that you were talking about, people are so mean. I remember when people were doing snail mail and I used to get like 10,000 letters a week. I find one letter that said, I didn't like the way you did that. I would look that person up, I would find them. I would track them down and call them up.

• 40:11Oprah Winfrey?

  And then they'd say, Oprah, I didn't mean that girl. I can't believe this is you calling me. You know what I mean? So it's, it's very interesting, but I, I, I think all of us have that. It's human nature. You can have a thousand people say this was great and then the 1,001 person, I'm gonna track them down.

• 40:32Speaker 04

  Oh, and I went searching. I went searching, I'm like, it's a, it's a gray avatar. I'm like, which gray avatar is this? I was searching, trying to find it.

• 40:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, I understand, I understand. So why is that our human nature? You can hear a thousand wonderful things and the one thing is the one that sticks.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so the, the argument behind it is from an evolutionary sense, if there was like a snake in our environment and we ignored it, we died. And so we are the ancestors of generation after generation after generation of people who are hyper vigilant to threats.

• 41:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Ah.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  And then another aspect of that human nature, we go to the loneliness epidemic, is that Again, we're the generation after generation after generation of people who fit in. Because if, you know, throughout evolution, if you got kicked out of the tribe, you died. And we're not a very strong species on our own. We don't have camouflage, or wings to fly away, or poison, or sharp teeth.

• 41:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need each other.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Our superhuman strength, well, our super strength as a species is cooperation.

• 41:33Oprah Winfrey?

  The power of us.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  So when we get a signal that someone is signaling we're not worthy socially, that is incredibly painful for people psychologically.

• 41:47Oprah Winfrey?

  It's almost primal.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very primal.

• 41:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, Stacey has had also an experience online. Take a look.

• 41:56Speaker 06

  So, some days, it fascinates me how mean people are willing to be behind a computer. It's funny how people start to come at your looks, your weight, your skin, what you own, what you have, what you have on. Would you walk up to someone in real life and ever say that? Are you that miserable that you feel it necessary to go online with nothing to do with anything and just speak to someone like that? Now you wonder why women especially are so messed up in the head. Be better, people.

• 42:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Be better, people.

• 42:45Oprah Winfrey?

  So why did you post that, Stacey?

• 42:48Speaker 06

  Well, it's funny. I started my account a year ago because I was like, I'm gonna free myself of all this. And the comments are, and my voice is a little annoying, so I'll give you that. But that's a big one. My voice is annoying. My skin is creepy. I'm like, I'm old. You know, like, people point out my age a lot. I'm like, I know how old I am. It's wild what people will come for you for. And like, someone be like, the meanest. I get why he left you.

• 43:23Speaker 06

  I was like, which husband?

• 43:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Which one?

• 43:29Speaker 06

  But I am compelled to answer. So now you block?

• 43:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 06

  I can't stop.

• 43:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 06

  I answer everything.

• 43:37Oprah Winfrey?

  You do?

• 43:38Speaker 06

  Everything. And the meaner it is, I find that I either have to answer or keep answering. I'm like, I can't stop.

• 43:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Is it your intention by answering back to try to change their mind?

• 43:52Speaker 06

  No, you know what? I think my intention is accountability, right? Like, the accountability of you don't just get to say, this is not a one-sided conversation. You can't speak and drop the mic. That's not fair. So I think I come back to be like, and? And if you have enough, look, I'm smart enough to, if you say something and it's proper, I'll be like, okay. But don't come at me for stuff like, weight is horrible. Because it does stick with you. So my question to you is, why do you think people are so comfortable being mean online? They wouldn't come up to you and say that to your face?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is an issue, again, of norms. Like, for example, when I'm at work, people are very warm and friendly. We have like norms of professionalism, right? And then when you're online, it's easier to engage in the types of comments that you would not do in person or at a restaurant. Sometimes this still happens when people lash out at fast food restaurant workers or medical staff. But it's much easier online. And part of it is because we have different norms, again, in that situation. And so when you're pushing back on them, you're trying to hold them accountable. And it sounds distressing. I would not advise that from like a psychological perspective for your own benefit. But it actually can be really powerful for establishing norms.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  And it is actually more powerful if someone steps in to help you. And even more powerful if someone who looks like the person is calling them out. Because we follow the norms of people like us. And so if you see someone, if it's a man doing it, it's more powerful if a man steps in and says, listen, that's really creepy, or inappropriate, no one deserves that, no one thinks it's funny. They're way more likely to shut down than if you do it. And so that's why I call on everybody here or watching, that we all have a power to change the norms. And in particular, if people like us are doing it, it's more powerful if we step in and help somebody else out.

• 45:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. So what is the path forward out of this meanness? Can you give us a reason to hope that things are gonna get better? Or that things can change?

• 46:01Speaker 01

  So I am hopeful, and I tend to be a positive person. And so the fact that it's gotten worse also means it can get better. And so we all have a role in creating an environment we want to live in. So online, as I've studied these dynamics and how people harass and spread information, I've actually changed my own online behavior. I'm less likely to get in an argument or say something mean about somebody else because I realize how that spreads among other people and how it impacts them. And so I think understanding is the first thing about how this impacts people. And then the second thing is, we all have a duty to step in and change the norms. Whether that's at our job, or in our families, or out in the real world, or online.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  And so we have a job to do that, to create, if we want a more civil world, it's created by all of us. And then the last thing, as I've said over and over again, is our leaders need to do it. And if they're not gonna do it, we have to hold them accountable to do it. We have to push for this and say, this is something we care about and that we value and that we want. And that isn't just our political leaders, it's our bosses at work. That they have to have a no tolerance, you said that nothing happened to that guy who was sexually harassed you. The airline has to be, no, you will never fly with us ever again. Or the security staff has to be like, no, you can't come to our airport ever again. And so we have to have norms and then enforce them, make them have real consequences for

• 47:31Speaker 01

  people.

• 47:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, we're gonna end it there, and I'll leave you with this. When I turned 50, Maya Angelou wrote a poem for me, and one of the lines, she wrote a poem called "Continue," you can see it online. And one of the lines in that poem is that, "My wish for you is that you continue to astonish a mean world with your acts of kindness."

• 47:55Speaker 01

  That's beautiful.

• 47:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And so that's my wish for all of us, is that we continue to astonish this mean world with our acts of kindness, and that we continue to evolve into the people that we know we deserve to be. I think because, as you were saying, human nature hasn't changed, we all still have our values. That's why the meanness bothers us so much. Because we know that there's a better way, and I think instead of just knowing that there's a better way, what the power of us is all about is enacting that better way for yourself and for your friends and your community on a daily basis.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree 100% of that.

• 48:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, well, I love that.

• 48:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Astonish a mean world with our acts of kindness.

• 48:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so you could go on a social media diet for a while, you could have your friends over for a barbecue, you can do whatever it takes for you to astonish a mean world with your acts of kindness. All right. The book is called The Power of Us. You can get it wherever you buy your books. Thank you, Dr. J. Thank you so much.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 49:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Be kind, go well, everybody. Thank you, Dr. J. If you're part of the 53% of Americans who feel that society has become uncivil and want to know what we can do about it, I encourage you to buy a copy of Dr. J. Van Bavel's book, The Power of Us. The QR code is right there on your screen. It might just give you hope for the future. I know we all believe we can do better. You can buy the book right now by scanning the QR code. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing, I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah

• 49:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.