Jenny Slate in 2025

Jenny Slate returns today for her fourth appearance on the program. We discuss how this role in the new FX series Dying for Sex offered her ‘full wingspan’ as a performer (5:45), embodying best friend and caretaker of Molly, played by Michelle Williams (9:25), and what she extracted from herself to play a confrontational character (12:30). Then, Jenny describes her relationship to motherhood (17:30), her breaking point while making her 2019 film The Sunlit Night (22:32), and how some timeless words from her first story collection Little Weirds help make sense of this moment (28:56). On the back-half, we unpack Jenny’s journey to healing from social media (33:11), a token of advice from her father, poet Ron Slate (41:48), and, to continue our tradition—Slate’s personal and creative aspirations for the years to come (43:51). To close, a formative passage from Shakespeare’s The Tempest (51:57). Hear our previous talks with Jenny from 2022 https://talkeasypod.com/jenny-slate-2022/, 2020 https://talkeasypod.com/jenny-slate-returns/, and 2017 https://talkeasypod.com/jenny-slate/. Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:37Sam Fragoso?

  Today, actor and author Jenny Slate. As you'll hear her joking at the top, this marks her fourth appearance on the program. Whether you're new to the show or just want a quick timeline of events, here's how it went. We first spoke back in 2017, on the heels of her starring roles in films like Landline and Obvious Child. At the end of that talk, Jenny made an appointment for us to check back in in three years. We then did just that, in the middle of the pandemic in 2020, as her debut short story collection, Little Weirds, had just been released. Vanity Fair called the book "one of the great quarantine

• 1:17Sam Fragoso?

  reads." I tend to agree. Then, our third talk, which came in 2022, upon the release of her longtime passion project, Marcel the Shell with Shoes on. She also had recently become a mother at the time. I've always described Talk Easy as a time capsule, and there's no one who's come on this program that better represents that mission statement than Jenny Slate. For talk number four, we sat in Los Angeles recently, where she was promoting her latest project, the miniseries Dying for Sex, in which Jenny co-stars with actor Michelle Williams.

• 1:55Sam Fragoso?

  In the show, Molly, portrayed by Williams, receives a terminal cancer diagnosis and then promptly decides to leave her husband of 15 years to pursue as many sexual experiences as possible. She gets the courage to go on this journey from her best friend, Nikki, played by Slate, who stays by her side until the very end. The series is inspired by a true story and spearheaded by writer-producer Liz Meriwether. You may know her work from New Girl and The Dropout, but I think this show, Dying for Sex, captures what Meriwether does best at once funny and heartbreaking. You can watch all eight episodes now on Hulu.

• 2:37Sam Fragoso?

  We also dive into Jenny's second essay collection, Life Form, which was published by Little Brown and Company last fall. You'll hear her read some passages from the book throughout this conversation. Lastly, if you're interested in checking out any of the past three episodes with Jenny, we've linked them in the description. It's not exactly like a TV show where you have to have heard the last conversation to understand this one, but I do think they are in dialogue with each other, all working to capture and interrogate the many different and fascinating sides of actor and author Jenny Slate. And so with that, here she is in 2025. Enjoy.

• 3:40Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Cool. I mean, I didn't even ask how you're doing. How are you doing?

• 3:44Sam Fragoso?

  Are we rolling, Tim?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry. This is my show, right, Tim?

• 3:48Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Okay, Tim, let's begin.

• 3:50Sam Fragoso?

  He would happily give it to you. Jenny Slate, welcome back to the show.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 3:58Sam Fragoso?

  You're officially in the four timers club on the program.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 4:03Sam Fragoso?

  There's only like a few of you. Noam Chomsky's come on three times.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 4:07Sam Fragoso?

  You beat him. W. Kamala Bell has come on four times. My father.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 4:13Sam Fragoso?

  And Dr. Ashish Jha has come on five times because of COVID.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I'd feel weird if I'd been, you know, on more times than. Like a really important person.

• 4:24Sam Fragoso?

  Hopefully, we don't have another pandemic.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:27Sam Fragoso?

  So that you will one day beat that number.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also, I would just love to not, you know, have another pandemic.

• 4:33Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, yeah. How are you doing?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I feel very well. I feel okay. I hate to say it, but All Things Considered.

• 4:42Sam Fragoso?

  Like the NPR show?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I wish that I, you know, I felt more like Ari Shapiro, but it's just not happening for me yet. I listen to All Things Considered every day. I feel that I need it, of course. But I feel, I'm surprised to say it because I feel stressed about, you know, like looking out into the world and being in the world. But I feel very well today.

• 5:08Sam Fragoso?

  What do you feel stressed out about?

• 5:12Sam Fragoso?

  We started doing these interviews in 2017. We talked again in 2020, and then again in 2022.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:22Sam Fragoso?

  A little over a year ago, you called up your agents and said to them that you only want to participate in projects that offered you, quote, "full wingspan."

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if I can make a small correction, because I think it's important.

• 5:36Sam Fragoso?

  Sure. This is from the Hollywood Reporter interview you did.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Totally. That interview I really enjoyed doing. But one thing that I wish I had clarified, to be honest, during that conversation that I had was that we were all in that discussion. I think I often am trying to be agreeable. I'm like, oh, maybe I should just, you know, do this, do that. I love acting so much, I'll just do it. You know, like, I just want to do it rather than not do it. And that's not the best position to put oneself in. You know, you can ask for more than that.

• 6:07Sam Fragoso?

  And as you should.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And my agents had been really encouraging of me, like, "You can wait. You can wait." And it's scary to wait when, you know, your job is how you make money, you know, like, you have to do that. But I did. And in that conversation, I did say this thing that I think about a lot, which is like, Yeah, I've been lucky enough to make different sizes of like flights, to spread my wings a bit, but like, I have not been able to do what I, I know I can do. Like, really these like sort of long haul, like full wingspan flights of performance.

• 6:49Sam Fragoso?

  Are you at home in Massachusetts when you make this call?

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:53Sam Fragoso?

  Is the kid in the other room?

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Same room.

• 6:55Sam Fragoso?

  Same room?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we kind of have like one big room mostly.

• 6:58Sam Fragoso?

  What's the distance between you making that request and you getting the script for Dying for Sex?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  It felt really quick.

• 7:07Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  And when my agents called me with the script, it wasn't like you got this part. It was like, there's a, there's a role up for grabs, basically. And there are some chemistry reads that are gonna go on next week. And you know, you're, you're one of the people they want to see. And they told me what the project was and who was in it and who was writing it and, you know, all the people involved and um, I felt like that it's a good feeling, but it's like, oh shit, okay, okay. This is what I've been asking for and it was a big deal for me. And not because of what you might think about actors like, oh, this is where I get to, you know, somehow become more like

• 7:50Speaker 01

  culturally relevant or something like that is I don't, I really don't concern myself a lot with that. It's not a big thing, but.

• 7:57Sam Fragoso?

  That's definitely not what I thought.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, okay. Well, cause you know, like it's my big chance. You know, like that thing, but just to specify that what that means for me is like, okay, I'm finally gonna get to like fit my size. If I could, if I could even get this part, like this is the performance I want. It's kind of like, this is the house I want. This is the type of food I want to eat. This is the um, yeah, this is the person I'd like to fall in love with. Like that, if I got that, like I remember when I met my husband, I literally wrote in my journal, when I met him, like the first day. This is a weird thing to say, but if I could, I think that if I could marry him, I would have the life that I want to have,

• 8:42Speaker 01

  which is a really intense thing to say, but you know, big shocker there. But that's how I felt about this part. Yeah, that like if I would just finally get to do the type of acting I want to do. Not that I haven't, but it's been, it had felt like a long time.

• 8:57Sam Fragoso?

  When you say a part that fits my size.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:01Sam Fragoso?

  For people who haven't seen the show yet, why don't you describe what that looks like?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  To me, the way that I read the character of Nikki, who I play on Dying for Sex, she's thoroughly dynamic. She is so many heights and depths without being unwell, without being unhinged. But she's like at once 100% soothing to Molly, while being able to be completely volcanic in the world. She's trustworthy and also kind of hard to pin down. Like, you don't exactly know what she's gonna do. But when it comes to how she engages in primary relationships, like her relationship with Molly, her best friend, played by Michelle Williams,

• 9:48Speaker 01

  you know that she is, might be unorthodox, untraditional on how she becomes like a caregiver for someone with terminal cancer, but that she's not gonna leave. And you know, the character's also really, really funny, thanks to the incredible script that Liz Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock wrote. And she's really tender. She's sensitive. She's not like a hard ass. You know, there's just like so many weird combinations within the character. And the way that I feel as a performer.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Is the more, the better. The more, the better. Like, just give me the most that you can give. And I will try to give it back.

• 10:34Sam Fragoso?

  As many layers as possible.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:36Sam Fragoso?

  And shades.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah.

• 10:39Sam Fragoso?

  The show is based on a true story.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 10:42Sam Fragoso?

  About a woman named Molly that Michelle Williams plays, who decides to leave her husband after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis. Mainly so that she can start having as much sex as physically possible.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:57Sam Fragoso?

  Which is, I think, a noble and good goal to have at the end of it all.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes. But also, that goal isn't just like, I want to go crazy and like, just get banged until I'm dead. I mean,

• 11:13Sam Fragoso?

  I was gonna say that.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  That is a bit of maybe how Molly and Nikki, I could imagine them joking about it that way. But what was so beautiful to me, and that beauty, the beauty really like, revealed itself and built, especially as we were shooting, is that the reason why Molly, you know, wants to have this, this time for herself to have this kind of like sexual awakening smorgasbord kind of thing is because she's been blocked or she's been holding herself back in terms of her own pleasure and her feelings around power and being able to reveal herself because she was abused as a child.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  And that abuse has really held her back. So it's, it is about pleasure. And it is also about healing and facing lifelong and completely like warranted, terrifying, physical, emotional, psychic fear.

• 12:17Sam Fragoso?

  In the show, your character is her best friend and a working actor.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 12:22Sam Fragoso?

  Who steps into the new role of caretaker. And in doing so, is like going with her to all the appointments.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:30Sam Fragoso?

  And is especially animated and combative, in defensive Molly.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:36Sam Fragoso?

  For a good reason.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:37Sam Fragoso?

  Was it enjoyable to play someone that confrontational?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 12:42Sam Fragoso?

  Because you're not that confrontational.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  No, I'm not. I honestly don't think I am at all. I mean, I, I think in life with people that I'm close to, if there's an issue, it's really hard for me to let that go, but.

• 12:55Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you're vocal, but I don't think confrontational.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. I, I would say that about myself. I, I would say I am non defensive. At this point, I used to be very defensive, but.

• 13:06Sam Fragoso?

  When did that stop?

• 13:08Speaker 01

  A few years ago, my, one of my sisters gave me a book on nonviolent communication. And I read it and was like, oh, oops.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  And I mean, sometimes you'd be like, you know, read a book about human behavior and you're like, yeah, I'd love to do that, but like, I don't even know how to begin. But this one, it was sort of like, I really understood the concept of nonviolent communication. And I saw the lack of it in my life in moments where I had like great need. Or that like I was having a problem expressing a need in the way that it could be most, you know, like actually be fulfilled. And anyway, so I, yeah, that really helped my development and it really helped my relationships. But for Nikki, she's very confrontational and she's quick to

• 14:00Speaker 01

  just anger over what I think Nikki would call ridiculous bullshit. She's not walking around just screaming at people. She's not someone with like attitude. She's not looking for a fight and she's not what I would refer to as a don't disrespect me, bro, person. She's not like afraid of being disrespected.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  But when it comes to Molly, when it comes to what she sees as unjust or wasteful, she's like on full blast and I just, I loved that. I loved that. And I especially loved it, you know, in service of Michelle and, and her performance as Molly. It just, it worked on so many different levels for me.

• 14:42Sam Fragoso?

  So as Molly's caretaker, advocating for her, showing up for her in all ways, I think one of the things your character does is speak truthfully, even if the truth is a little bit painful.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:57Sam Fragoso?

  And so I thought, why don't we watch a scene from early on in the show?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Oh, OK.

• 15:02Sam Fragoso?

  This is your character, Nikki, speaking first.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I don't know how to do this. I'm not like a pro at taking care of people. I'm bad at taking care of people.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  It's not your fault. OK, it's too much to ask him and calling Steve.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Don't do that. Don't call Steve. No, don't do that. I can do this. Don't go and hide and be safe with Steve. He does not care about what you want or who you are. And that's why you married him. And it was chicken shit then, and it's chicken shit now.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that was, there was rewriting, but that was one of the things that I auditioned with. Like, that was one of the scenes in my chemistry read. Yeah, with Michelle. And I, again, like, I really enjoyed that, even in a stressful, high-stakes setting, like a chemistry read for a job you really want, opposite, like, one of your favorite actors.

• 15:52Sam Fragoso?

  One of the best we got.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for real. Even then, I remember just being like, oh, it's so fun to lay it down like this and so different than how I am in life and such an interesting repurposing of the energy that I have in me. But I, I just, I love the care that is in that true statement. And that even though Nikki is forceful, she's not being violent. She's not being, she's not trying to like shake Molly by the collar and like scare her into making a decision. She's just laying out. Yeah, you have the option of Steve, who doesn't care about you and he doesn't, he doesn't understand what you want.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  He really doesn't know you. He only knows what he wants you to do to help him see more of himself. And Nikki is saying, I'm the other alternative. I'm imperfect. I'm gonna learn with you. But the subtext, at least for me, there is, those are the elements of being alive, growing and changing. There's a lot of room in imperfection. And she's saying to Molly, like, come with me because I love you and that's because I want to learn about you and let you change.

• 17:10Sam Fragoso?

  When you say that, like, the repurposed energy that you put into it, what did you mean by that?

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Well, I think that there's a way that I run as a person. I tend to come from gentleness. I tend to be, I tend to try to show people, like if, you know, someone that I love is doing something that I think is unwise, I come with like a slow, I would say, a lot of intensity, but it's like, slow and care and like, look at me. I'm trying to tell you, it's really not a good move. You know, like, yeah.

• 17:45Sam Fragoso?

  You weren't even trying to convince me of anything.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  No, you don't even know what I'm telling you not to do, but you're just like, huh.

• 17:49Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know. I'm suddenly nervous.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  But it's, yeah, my, my energy, I think, like in life, you know, with my, with my daughter especially, or, you know, it lays heavy. It lays heavy. It can move, but it lays heavy. Whereas Nikki is like, she is fiery. You know, it is a blast. Like, it's bright in your face. And I think we can only work with what we have in terms of what we understand about other people. And, you know, if a director comes in and says like, I need you to be more aggressive, of course, there's like a bazillion ways that'll be interpreted. And I think my job is to have as many versions of that as possible, available with the energy that I have in myself for, for interpretation. But I direct all of my energy at this point in my life

• 18:34Speaker 01

  toward growth and comfort and making things beautiful and trying to sustain truth while also avoiding unnecessary damage. That's not what Nikki does at all.

• 18:49Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, she's just full head of steam.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  She is. I mean, she changes, but she is a full head of steam.

• 18:54Sam Fragoso?

  Trying to be truthful without creating unnecessary damage.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:58Sam Fragoso?

  Is that the product of your age or being a new mother?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Um, both, and also my relationship with myself and my relationship with my husband and with my parents. You know, like, I was really, um, Nicky-like to my parents.

• 19:16Sam Fragoso?

  Your father especially, right?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  I think actually, I mean, maybe my dad, but I feel like I gave my mom kind of a hard time when I was in my twenties especially, like, kind of like judging her point of view.

• 19:28Sam Fragoso?

  Over what?

• 19:29Speaker 01

  I think I would be in her face about negativity and how I assessed her relationship with the world at large.

• 19:40Sam Fragoso?

  That sounds like a 20-year-old.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  I know. I really regret it now. And I have a, like, a completely different engagement. And, I mean, I've always been really, you know, close with my mom, but I think I did used to want to, like, make her admit something.

• 19:56Sam Fragoso?

  Do you know what that admission sounds like or what you wanted it to be then?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Hmm, no, because I think that what that is, is about me. You know, like, not, not that she would admit something about me, but like, the thing that I wanted, I needed my own permission to have. My mom wasn't gonna be like, "You're right, Jenny. Like, the world is full of social, non-predatory people, and we should all be out there and just, like, not be freaked out and, uh, negative." Like, I was looking to, um, to not be like that, but in a really specific way towards myself.

• 20:32Sam Fragoso?

  You know, there is this back and forth within Dying for Sex between Molly and her mother, played by Sissy Spasick.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 20:40Sam Fragoso?

  And the two of them have a dynamic where I think in some ways, the character wants the mother, now in her 70s or 80s, to admit something that maybe she can't admit or get to someplace that maybe they cannot get to.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  I mean, what we learned from Molly at the end is that she really believes that the situation that led to the moment of her abuse was her fault. In the scene, Michelle does this beautiful job. Of saying like, I saw him put the sedative in my mother's drink and I didn't say anything. And I liked that we had like a joke or a little secret. But of course, she was a child. She didn't understand anything that was happening or what would then transpire. And it was hell, just absolute, you know, terror and, and you can't come, you can't, you can't erase that.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  You can't rewind that. And I think what Molly really wants is like, I just want to be out of this cycle. I want to be in a new space. Stop making me be in this with you. Let's be in something else. And her sexual activities and her sexual pursuits and that narrative is about her being somewhere else, somewhere that she got, you know, bumped off of that trajectory at a very young age. And also she does get to be somewhere else with her mother at the end.

• 22:11Sam Fragoso?

  I'm thinking about a moment where you said to yourself, I also want to be in a different dynamic. I also need to turn the page. From my understanding, I think it came after you made the film The Sunlit Night. You said, quote, "I think The Sunlit Night was like the AD to my BC. Making this movie, I stepped off that set and stepped into a completely new world."

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:35Sam Fragoso?

  That was back in 2019. What was the AD and BC transformation?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  It's a, a real, you know, it's a gaggle of different things, but

• 22:49Speaker 01

  part of that was a real sharpening of my own understanding of how internalized misogyny with, within myself had directed me to operate in.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  The world in my career, in my expectations and in my

• 23:06Speaker 01

  my treatment of myself, like strange expectations that I set for myself or you know, things that I said, like I, you have to do this, you have to be like this, you have to look like this. Otherwise it will be bad and and you'll be, you know, excluded from the things that you want. And I think I started to realize the ways in which I was like gauging things or talking to myself and how they were connected with my own internalized misogyny and I was just started to unwind from that, like, you know, pull out a spool from myself and it was really freeing.

• 23:41Sam Fragoso?

  What did you fear you were going to be excluded from that you wanted to be part of?

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Sex, the, you know, being an actor.

• 23:48Sam Fragoso?

  You thought you'd be excluded from sex?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like what I was around was like, you know, it just was the time of Britney Spears and Tara Reid and just like really hot girls that all looked a certain way. And that was what I thought. I just was sure that that was what I was supposed to be or look like. And there wasn't anybody telling me not to. I wish that there was. I wish I had been exposed to, you know, other stuff that actually suited my tastes more. And I didn't understand that what I had enjoyed in in terms of what I thought was beautiful as a, like a child, was just still totally available to me to emulate, which includes like my grandmothers.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  You know, like they were always old when I knew them, but they, I will always say to me, they were the first two people I thought were like physically beautiful. And then all of the like, you know, Madeleine Khan and Carol Burnett, like Amy Irving was a huge one, you know, like Lena Horne on Sesame Street, like Crystal Gale, Bette Midler. There were so many and none of them were like that kind of MTV T R L, you know, forcing a very young woman, or maybe not, maybe she, you know, whatever. Saying this is the style that we want and that we want women to to look like and be. And I think it really stuck with me and created contortion in me for quite a while.

• 25:13Sam Fragoso?

  So then what happened in 2019 that created the pivot, the move away from that?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I just lost respect for that point of view.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  It just sort of was like, oh, I don't have to lose everything that I like if I decide to like not care about. What this nameless, faceless, but I sense it, like misogynist entity out there seems to want from me in terms of like what I say, what I agree to, how I behave. But it also doesn't mean like I can't be kind anymore because women are often silenced or, you know, like people don't want to deal with confrontation, whatever. Like all of a sudden, I just, I just really lost respect for that. And I do think like that it was like the first time that I also had other female friends who were feeling that alongside me. And it just felt really good.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it also felt sad, like, oh, man, I've wasted a lot of time, but then really excited like, oh, well, I can just be like this now.

• 26:22Sam Fragoso?

  We'll bring it back with author and actor Jenny Slate.

• 26:33Sam Fragoso?

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• 28:03Sam Fragoso?

  I want to read from this piece you wrote that I think captures that transformation. That maybe it's a reminder to yourself if you're up for it.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  You will not be exhausted anymore by the fight with the misogynist in your psyche. You will remember that the misogynist in your head is peddling propaganda that has been written in your own blood, forged in the fires of your own personal hell. You will admit that this has been a very big problem for you. Oh, my goodness. You won't let the idiots and the assholes get past the front gate of your heart. They can yell from the sidewalk. They can yell terrible things because they are shut out and can't stand to be let go. But you will not let them in now. Oh, damn, yes. Repeat this in your head. There are no odds to beat anymore, just some real junk to dump. You dump your junk. After you dump it, you don't sort it in your mind. You dump your junk and you walk away.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  You wear all one color on the outside, swirl with every color on the inside. You walk forward. You keep your head angled up so that you see over the fray. You protect yourself and all the little weirds that make up who you are. We sat there and had the coffee and eggs in the in-between world, the often scary but necessary space between old patterns and new behaviors. I didn't know it then, but I'd made it to the holy land. Yeah, that's an exact example of that. And in fact, I wrote that during that time. I wrote that like a little over a month after wrapping "The Sunlit Night." And it just came really clear to me. I just kind of like, I don't know.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  It's weird how a person can get to a breaking point, but where you're just like, I don't want to deal with assholes anymore. And that includes me.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  And I don't want to leave, so I have to change.

• 29:54Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. I remember I read the book when it came out. I think we spoke shortly after that, maybe in the pandemic. Yeah, in 2020.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was, I was pregnant, but I didn't say that I was.

• 30:07Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, and I have to say, like, I returned to it this morning, maybe after reading that Hollywood Reporter profile. I returned to it and I wondered how you were holding those words. And that reminder now, especially after the last six months you've had with this "it ends with us" controversy.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  So I never like read interviews that I give, so I haven't read the Hollywood Reporter piece, but I was interviewed earlier this week because I'm, you know, like, doing a lot of interviews because our, our show is about to come out. And someone asked me about that and I was like, oh, oh, I, uh, oh, I should have clarified that, like, you know, whatever, whatever I said before. But to answer your question, what I wrote there, like, I should have it printed out on my wall.

• 30:54Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  And the reason why is that, like, it's really great to be able to articulate oneself. It's, I, I'm, I'm a fast mentalizer and I have realized in myself a particular skill for writing prayers and tiny tomes of encouragement just for myself. And I put them down on paper because I don't want to forget. And like, these to me, not like I'm the god of myself or whatever, but like, this is as close as I come to praying. Like, it's, it's a clarification, uh, expression of my belief system and my hopes for myself. And just like, I think, any text that holds a spiritual protocol for you,

• 31:36Speaker 01

  that like you, you know, religious people return to their text every day, from what I understand. And I, I love that. I don't return to my book every day, but I return to things that remind me of that mindset. But you have to be in a practice with it. And

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Does it still seem important to me? Yes. Do I feel that I've failed myself? Absolutely not. Do I feel that I sometimes need reminding that I'm worth my own high expectations for myself? Yeah. And I think it's, it's good. It's good to remind yourself that you are in, one way or another, in line for what you hoped for yourself the last time you were able to think clearly.

• 32:19Sam Fragoso?

  You won't let the idiots and the assholes get past the front gate of your heart.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:24Sam Fragoso?

  That's a good line.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 32:26Sam Fragoso?

  I read that and all I could think of was the internet.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't look at the internet. I mean, it actually makes me feel kind of like, like, I mean, I look at the internet like I buy, you know, towels and stuff. Like, I have like a major sweater buying problem, but.

• 32:42Sam Fragoso?

  I'm here to confront you about that.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Finally, the sweater intervention. Um, I'm really, really strict about connecting to reality. I check in with myself, with the people in my life, with my own belief system and what I know about like, who I am. And I, I'm really clear. Like, I feel really clear about what my deal is. And it's not like I'm like, yeah, I'm the best. But it's just like, I'm, I really certainly care about what the people in my life think about me. You know, if my friends are like, oh, Jenny, she, she just talked for like an hour and she didn't ask anyone any questions. Like, that's devastating. I don't want to be that. You know, like, if I don't call my sister back, I feel bad about it.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Like, I, you know, whatever. But in terms of like, if you're talking about like, social media, I just decided like years ago that it wouldn't be good for me anymore to look into what that fray was. Because you can really get pulled into being frightened by condemnation or being defined in a way that like, you really don't identify with. And I've worked really hard on my ongoing process of self-understanding.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  And self estimation and I, there's just no time to lose. Like, one day I'll be dead. This is my one time for being alive. I'm just like not gonna fuck it up by telling myself that it's my duty to look into an online space created by people who wanted us to be addicted to it and hurt each other. And there is a ton of great stuff on the internet. You know, like, there would be no Marcel the Shell if there was no internet. And I am so grateful, but, um, well, the other thing I'll say is that, like, the stakes are much higher for me because I have Ida. In the same way that it's like, what do you mean? I can't sneak out to the porch and smoke a cigarette? She's gonna smell it. I haven't done that. I'm just saying, like, you know, what do you mean?

• 34:44Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't be stoned. I can't, you know, I'm not, I'm not gonna be drunk. Like, I can't be messed up.

• 34:52Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  I have to be healthy for her and all, like, obviously for myself, but it's like even easier to understand that and be that. It's not easy to be, like, emotionally healthy. Everyone has to work on it, but you know what I mean?

• 35:06Sam Fragoso?

  I do. Yeah, I know what you mean.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't wanna go around being like scared of people. You know, like, I feel like everything's, unless, like, you are looking at me right now and there's something I don't know. I mean, and I feel paranoid all the time, of course, but it's better to just not go in that room, man.

• 35:26Sam Fragoso?

  No, there is not like some cascading

• 35:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:30Sam Fragoso?

  amount of messages.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Okay. I'm like, I-

• 35:32Sam Fragoso?

  No, there's not. There's not. But there is no way anyone listens to this and doesn't, on one level, go, how is she doing, given this very public controversy that has happened? A controversy that is, that is much too public for anyone's good, I think. No, no one should care about other people's business as much.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  I mean, the way that I think about like my life, or even coming here today for this podcast, it's like, I feel that I've done my best work yet. I've also like put out a book this year. And all of that is like me expressing and it's my work. It's like that's what I'm talking about. And it's like, it feels really weird to me. I understand why, like, I understand the question. I understand that there's interest. But for me, coming here, I'm like, I'm looking toward the light. I'm looking toward the fresh air. I'm like, oh, my God, my, this project is about to come out. I got chosen to act with Michelle Williams. Like, that is how I feel.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Why would I ever talk about anything else, except for what I myself am active in, am responsible for, am involved in, have my name on? I feel this way so strongly. And because I, I wanted this work so badly, part of the full wingspan thing is me being like, I understand what you're saying. I'm not getting off my flight pattern. I need to be able to talk about what I want to talk about

• 37:22Speaker 01

  and not be responsible for a cultural discussion that every now and then bellows my name. And, um, you know, of course, there are things that I want to say in my private life. But like, one of the things that I've learned, and I can, you know, it's still like, I'm like still wobbly at it, is like, I don't have to talk about everything. And it doesn't make me dishonest. And I want to be in a discussion that is like respectful and safe. That's why I don't like, really participate in social media, other than, you know, posting when I like, have an article come out about my show, you know, because I'm just unsure of the environment.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  It's kind of like the same as like, where would you bring your kid?

• 38:10Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  You know, like, would you bring them to like a field where like, you know, it's hunting season? Or would you bring them to Disneyland where there are rides that are appropriate for them? You know, like, that's the thing.

• 38:23Sam Fragoso?

  I would hope, after how long you've known me, that you would bring your kid to Talk Easy.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  I think that my daughter would love Talk Easy. Yeah.

• 38:32Sam Fragoso?

  I know why you came today.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  I know you know, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm surprised, I'm surprised.

• 38:39Sam Fragoso?

  You're surprised at what?

• 38:40Speaker 01

  I guess, well, it's interesting because like you and I have had this thing where like, I'm lucky enough that I have good enough work come out that like I get to come and be on your show every few years.

• 38:50Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  You've also like taken in my work and read my work and seen my specials, all of it, so.

• 38:55Sam Fragoso?

  Obsessive bookmarking.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I'm actually like surprised that you wouldn't know what my response would be. And I'm not uncomfortable with it at all. But I, I know that when I leave here, I'll feel like I'm glad that I talked about this work. Because, you know what, can I just say one other thing? Sorry.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  One thing that I'll say is like, I know what it feels like to continually have to be asked something in interviews that has nothing to do with your current work.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  It's heartbreaking because I don't work that frequently. But also, every time I work, it's like me saying I'm alive and I'm even more alive than ever. And it's like, I, it's my job to make sure that I talk about my current self, my work in the right context.

• 39:51Sam Fragoso?

  The thing we're, we're talking at and around is not dissimilar to something I think you've done throughout your work and private and public life throughout, like in 2020.

• 40:04Sam Fragoso?

  When there were protests breaking out in Black Lives Matter,

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 40:08Sam Fragoso?

  we did episodes on the show. And you were one of the first people in Hollywood that took our episode and promoted it on social media.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Was that true?

• 40:20Sam Fragoso?

  Yes. It was a Jelani Cobb episode, talking about

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah.

• 40:25Sam Fragoso?

  And you were advocating for that before, like, everyone started advocating. I'm thinking about obvious child, talking about choice. That these two texts are feminist texts that have politics embedded and running through them.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 40:39Sam Fragoso?

  You, look, as like, you've always been entertaining in the publicity way.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Totally. I mean, yeah.

• 40:47Sam Fragoso?

  But you've always been political and advocating in the way that you are.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, you know, gosh. Yeah, when I was driving here today, I called my dad because he said something to me like a couple of weeks ago, and it really affected me. And I couldn't remember the exact wording, but I, you know, I was, every day I like listened to Up First from NPR, and I listened to All Things Considered at night. And then, you know, I call my dad in the morning, I'm like, oh, what's gonna happen? And I called him today to ask him, like, can you repeat it for me so I can remember it? When I'm going to bed tonight, when I'm, when I'm talking about what's important to me? And I asked him, and my dad repeated it for me. He said, Jen, you can either be brokenhearted in a fierce world,

• 41:36Speaker 01

  or you can have a fierce heart in a broken world. And he had said to me, you know, that's what I want to see in people's work. My dad runs a really wonderful literary site, and they have incredible literary criticism and

• 41:52Sam Fragoso?

  He's a poet himself.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  He's a poet, a writer, he's a literary critic, and he's brilliant. And, you know, one of a kind, no one else in the universe, like my dad, Ron Slate, one of the best.

• 42:04Sam Fragoso?

  So a fierce heart and a broken world is what you're leaning towards in this moment?

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Always. I think it's always been my way, but I, you know, until my dad said that, I, I don't think I, I saw it that way. Yeah, he used the adjective, like, you have to have a stout heart. You know, and I just, I loved that. I love that.

• 42:29Sam Fragoso?

  After one more quick break, the end of my conversation with Jenny Slate.

• 42:59Sam Fragoso?

  This is your fourth time on the program, like I said.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:02Sam Fragoso?

  And it's amazing, looking back on the episodes. At the end of each of them, I ask you about what you want in the future. And this is pretty uncanny, because in our 2017 episode...

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Whoa, I wonder what I said. Yeah, okay.

• 43:15Sam Fragoso?

  You talked about wanting to be a mother. You became a mother.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 43:19Sam Fragoso?

  In 2020, you wanted to finish Marcel de Chelle. It got nominated for an Oscar. In 2022, you wanted to finish your second book of essays, which turned into Life Form.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:32Sam Fragoso?

  Published last fall.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:34Sam Fragoso?

  So if we're continuing this trend of treating Talk Easy, and by extension, me, as a genie,

• 43:42Sam Fragoso?

  what do we think?

• 43:43Speaker 01

  It's interesting. I'm at a real inflection point right now. I mean, I guess I always am. I guess I'm always saying that. But I guess, why wouldn't you want that? Why wouldn't you want that? I think there are some things that are really specific that I want to happen for me. I really want to create and perform a live theater piece. And I've never done that before. Like, not stand-up, but like a written theatrical piece using like light and puppets as a way to talk about birth and death and sort of like ancestral energy inheritance. That's what I want. I like, think about that a lot.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  I don't know, I don't know what I'm talking about. But it's something, there's something, something, something there.

• 44:32Sam Fragoso?

  There's definitely something there.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  There's something there, and it's really hard. It's like, hearing you say like, "Oh, I said I wanted to finish my book of, second book of essays." Like, it was really, really, really, really hard to write Life Form. It was really, really hard. To the point where I don't think that I'm done with it. I think that like... What I touched on is so important to me that the theater piece is like the second request from what that instinct is.

• 45:00Sam Fragoso?

  What made it so difficult?

• 45:02Speaker 01

  I just couldn't think. I was so tired. My daughter was two and a half when I was starting to write it. I was really tired. It was sort of like, you know, trying to catch water in your hand. It just kept going through. I just couldn't get it. And it meant so much to me. And it just was hard. It was like hard to get it out. And then I could and then I did get it out, but it was harder. It was like a lot harder. And I love life form. I love it. I think it is exactly what I wanted it to be. I don't have any regrets about it, honestly, but I do want to do a theater piece and then.

• 45:39Sam Fragoso?

  It's funny you say that because I think in Season Professional, your stand-up special.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  I say that I hate plays. That's like the first thing I say. I know. I know. Because I do. Like, I did. I do. I did. But then I say, that's the complaint of an actress who has never been asked to be in a play. Which is not, I mean, I've been in plays, but like not since, you know, college, but.

• 45:59Sam Fragoso?

  It was a good bit.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. But this is not, I mean, like, it's also true. It's very hard for me to sit still. I, you know, major ADHD. I just like can't do it.

• 46:08Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, I thank you for doing this.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Well, this is different because I'm talking so much.

• 46:12Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  You know? So it's like, I like this a lot. But, I mean, I want a lot of the things to just keep going. I want to keep being in love with my husband. I want to keep growing closer and closer and closer and more known, knowing more to and about my daughter. But I also, for me, I really want to work on one main thing in myself that I think is the source of when I get really, really depressed and when.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Like my sort of like instant sadness loneliness that kind of happens to me on a daily basis, it's like a sinkhole. I claw my way out of it pretty easily, but it really hurts. It's like I really, really need to work on how personally I take everything in my, in my personal life.

• 47:04Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  I'm realizing it's like kind of a problem.

• 47:06Sam Fragoso?

  How do you mean?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Well, like if somebody that I'm close to is in a bad mood, I just think like it's because I did that to them. It's like it rolls downhill really quickly. It's really bad. It's like, oh, this person's in a bad mood. It's because they don't have enough respect for me to be kind to me. They haven't even been able to remind themselves that I'm here and that I deserve like a smile or kindness because I'm not important to them and they don't care about me and I've fallen short. And if I've fallen short, that means that I've disappointed them and they're going to leave me and, and it's just a matter of time and I gotta, you know, like I'm going to be alone. Like I've failed. I'm, I'm, I'm, I've lost love. I'm starving, I'm starving. And that's how it feels, like almost every day. It's not, doesn't last a long time, but like.

• 47:52Sam Fragoso?

  How long does it last?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  An hour. And I do other things during that time. And I just am realizing like, this is major. Like this is a really big deal. This is a really big deal that you do this every day. And it's connected to all the other ways that I've tried to work on myself.

• 48:10Sam Fragoso?

  Does it usually happen at three in the afternoon?

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Uh, well, there is a piece in my new book called The Purple Dark Hole, which is, you know, letters, letters to the doctor, Purple Dark Hole, which is, it's sort of about postpartum depression, but.

• 48:21Sam Fragoso?

  Three twenty-two?

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, afternoon is hard. I, I think I'm managing my experience with depression much better now. And like, like part of that is just being like, deal with it. Like, ask a doctor. You know? I think it's hard to understand. Like, am I, am I clinic, am I like sort of chemically depressed or is the world really scary? Or am I just really tired? Or am I, you know, whatever. But now I understand like, oh, I need a little bit of like medication for depression and it makes all the difference. But that doesn't have anything to do with my instinct to, oh, I'll just take this on. Like, I guess it's, the one thing I should do is take everything personally. It's, it's really

• 49:05Speaker 01

  starting to wear me out. And I'm starting to realize that it's, it's not.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Me, it's in me, but it's not me. And I can stop. And it's gonna take a long time. But that's what I'm focused on. And I hope that I can do it.

• 49:23Sam Fragoso?

  I wish that for you, too.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so does everyone else in my fucking life.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  One thing that I wrote a lot about in life form is like, my understanding and what I wish I had told myself or understood as a younger person and what I would tell to any younger person, or any person, is you are not required to bare your teeth at your own image.

• 49:49Sam Fragoso?

  That's a line in the book.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's in the book. And I say it all the time now to myself and people I care about.

• 49:55Sam Fragoso?

  I guess that includes every Talk Easy listener.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 50:00Sam Fragoso?

  So we're closing the loop.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Well, the eclipses are doing something, you know. Hopefully, we're not closing the loop.

• 50:07Sam Fragoso?

  It's closing.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I mean, if I don't get to come back here, I hate to say it, it might mean I'm dead.

• 50:16Sam Fragoso?

  You know you're welcome back anytime.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Yes, but I am mortal, I'm just saying.

• 50:21Sam Fragoso?

  Famously, yeah. My last question for us. I think of your books as offerings of some kind.

• 50:31Sam Fragoso?

  Sometimes they read like prayers, sometimes they read like reminders to self.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:37Sam Fragoso?

  And in Dying for Sex, you play this working actor that is in a Shakespeare play.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:47Sam Fragoso?

  She is then, because of her commitments to caretaking, fired from that play.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:55Sam Fragoso?

  But later in the story, Shakespeare works its way back into the show.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:01Sam Fragoso?

  And I thought we could end today's episode with a passage from Shakespeare's The Tempest.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Cool, man. Okay.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  I wish I brought my glasses. Our revels now are ended. These are actors, as I foretold you, were all spirits and are melted into air, into thin air. And like the baseless fabric of this vision, the cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, the solemn temples, the great globe itself, yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve. And like this insubstantial pageant faded, leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff as dreams are made on and our little life is rounded with a sleep.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  He was good. He was good.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  He was good. You know, Trump wants to get cats back in the, you know, Kennedy Center. He's requested cats, but this is good, too.

• 52:11Sam Fragoso?

  I'm so glad Trump has really only come up in the context of cats.

• 52:18Sam Fragoso?

  Is this where you want to end it?

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Nope, I don't think so. I don't think so.

• 52:23Sam Fragoso?

  That passage is unbelievable.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  It really is so beautiful. It's, it's really nice when you do something that you feel like, maybe this is an offering for other people. And the reason why I think that is because even though I'm one of the people making it, it exists as an offering for me.

• 52:42Sam Fragoso?

  On the other side of it, I know you cut your hair off.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did.

• 52:45Sam Fragoso?

  If we're thinking about the show as an offering, what did it give you on the other side of all this?

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I don't even know where to start. There was a perpetual, really active sense of, pay attention, pay attention, like, oh, my God, I can't believe this is what I get to do. Big, big gratitude. But that didn't come with imposter syndrome, as it often does for me and for many, when like something really awesome happens. I felt comfortably, peacefully at home on this set, even though, while understanding that I believed our work and the people around me, Michelle and Liz and Kim and our whole cast, Shannon, the director, like, Everyone's extraordinary.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  And I am here because I'm part of this group. And that feeling of belonging is really, really precious to me. And I've continued to feel a sense of belonging in my life and a sense of legitimacy that I've been building on for a few years anyway. But that sort of expanded that for me. But then, I guess, like, I've arrived at a place where I'm happy about my work. And I'm like, wow, for one of the first times ever, I think I might, I think I might have thoroughly have a blast. Sort of like beginning to end, like starting getting the script to go into the premiere.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  And I'm really focused on making sure that I do have a really, really beautiful time this week and that my husband knows how much I appreciate him being there with me. And that, like, it's just like fun. Yeah.

• 54:32Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I hope having this conversation has been part of that arrival.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Of course. Yeah.

• 54:39Sam Fragoso?

  And I so congratulate you on making this show. I think it's really good. And I hope you'll come back for a fifth time.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I will, you know? There's no reason that I won't, unless I'm dead. I'm so sorry.

• 54:59Sam Fragoso?

  I was trying to end it on something nice.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. God, I wish I knew any songs from Cats.

• 55:07Sam Fragoso?

  Jenny Slate, thank you as always.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 55:38Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode with Jenny Slate, be sure to share it with a friend, on social media, over email, I don't know, however you're communicating these days. All of it helps us continue making this show each and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this week to the teams at Lead Company and FX, and of course, my guest, Jenny Slate. Her excellent new series, Dying for Sex, is now available to watch via FX on Hulu. For more talks, I'd recommend my conversations with Michelle Williams, Kiwi Kwan, and Julia Louis-Dreyfus. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen.

• 56:22Sam Fragoso?

  You can also subscribe to Lemonada Premium for bonus content, just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, or head to lemonadapremium.com. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Lindsay Ellis and mixed by Andrew Vazdola. It was taped out of York Recording in Los Angeles, California. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Chris Shennoy. Photographs today are by Emily Ferretti. Additional research comes from Pierce Harvey. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media. And I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to another episode of Talk Easy.

• 57:04Sam Fragoso?

  I'll see you back here next Sunday with, well, one of my favorite living writers. Until then, stay safe, and so long.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  History gets written, then rewritten, sometimes by scholars correcting the record, sometimes by committees deciding what a generation of kids will and won't learn. The version that makes it into the textbook isn't always the only story. It's the one that won out. That's the kind of thing Ground News was built for. It shows you how outlets across the spectrum tell the same story, side by side, so you can spot the shading for yourself. Ground News gives each outlet a factuality rating, so you know how much weight to give the source, and shows you who owns it, so you know what's behind it. The Nobel Peace Center called it "an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers,

• 58:31Speaker 03

  and expand your worldview." So go to groundnews.com/rz. That's G-R-O-U-N-D-N-E-W-S.com/rz for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/rz, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/rz.

• 59:07Speaker 04

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long-haul truck together.

• 59:15Speaker 05

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 59:19Speaker 04

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 59:21Speaker 05

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 59:28Speaker 05

  As I said.

• 59:30Speaker 04

  Find out what it's like to be a long-haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.