Whistleblower Exposes the Real Puppet Masters Controlling the State Department and Plans for Gaza

Shahed Ghoreishi says Mark Levin’s stepson got him fired from the State Department last month because he didn’t repeat Israeli talking points. (00:00) What Was Ghoreishi’s Job at the State Department? (07:26) How Does a Press Officer Know What the Official US Position Is? (14:03) Why Was Ghoreishi Fired? (32:09) Mike Johnson’s Visit to “Judea and Samaria” (35:42) Who Is David Milstein? (54:58) Is Anyone at the State Department Truly America First? (58:46) The Damage Mike Huckabee Has Done to American Foreign Policy (1:05:17) What Is the Real Plan for Gaza and the West Bank? Paid partnerships with: GCU: Find your purpose at Grand Canyon University. Learn more at https://GCU.edu PureTalk: Go to https://PureTalk.com/Tucker to and save 50% off your first month. SimpliSafe: Visit https://simplisafe.com/TUCKER to claim 50% off a new system. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. TCN: Watch the full series as soon as it premieres: tuckercarlson.com/the911files Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Tucker Carlson?

  So you were marched out of the State Department two weeks ago. You left involuntarily, and I want to hear why. But first, what did you do there? What was your job at the state?

• 0:39Speaker 02

  I was a press officer in the Near Eastern Affairs Bureau, started September 2024. Essentially, the main bread and butter role of a press officer is twofold. One is preparing the spokesperson before they go on the podium and do their daily press briefing.

• 0:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  And second, reporters ask questions all the time. So a reporter with XYZ outlet submits a question, and it's our job to use cleared lines, or cleared meaning approved lines, and send them back to the reporter. And if you ever read an article and it says, "A State Department spokesperson said X", those are press officers taking those cleared lines and sharing it with that reporter.

• 1:44Tucker Carlson?

  Who clears the lines?

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Good question. So a press officer will draft the lines. From there, it will go up a ladder, essentially. So there'll be desk officers, leadership in the any press office itself, and then it goes up to the seventh floor, meaning the Secretary's Policy Planning Office, the Deputy Secretary of State's office. But it's all themself, like you're not going to get the Deputy Secretary of State looking at this, right?

• 2:13Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  It's going to just be like a staffer who represents that equity. So it becomes an inclusive process to make sure everyone has eyes on it. And if there are flags, they'll let you know. For example, you could be... Driving a line on Israel, but it involves Lebanon. But there's another press officer and a whole other desk and leadership working on Lebanon that might have an equity that you may not be aware of that they'll edit the lines.

• 2:39Tucker Carlson?

  So describe the bureau that you work for Near Eastern Affairs.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:43Tucker Carlson?

  What is that?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  It's, well, it's an old school name. Basically means anything involved in the Middle East. So it's Morocco to Iran.

• 2:50Tucker Carlson?

  The whole Middle East, not just the Levant, like the whole Middle.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, Near East, yeah. It's a, they need to update the name. I think people are aware, but yeah, it's, it's the entire Middle East. So it's, they, they use all these acronyms. So Israeli Palestinian Affairs is IPA or ISPAL. Saudi, Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, that whole grouping is ARP for Arabian Peninsula. And then North Africa is its own entity as well, from Morocco to Egypt, goes under NA.

• 3:19Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so it's the Levant, the Gulf.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Iran, yeah, Iran.

• 3:24Tucker Carlson?

  Africa.

• 3:27Tucker Carlson?

  Huh, interesting. And that's all in the same bureau. So the State Department divides the worlds and world into bureaus.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 3:34Tucker Carlson?

  Which are often called desks.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Correct. So from Canada down to Chile's WHA, Western Hemisphere Affairs, Asia's EAP, Eastern Asia, East Asia Pacific. So you have all these divisions.

• 3:48Tucker Carlson?

  Europe, Africa.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Correct. EUR for Europe, Africa's AF. I was in NEA and I was a press officer there, originally covering Lebanon, Jordan, just for a couple of months, and I quickly shifted to ISPAL.

• 4:04Tucker Carlson?

  Israel, Palestine.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Israel, Palestine.

• 4:06Tucker Carlson?

  Whoa. So that's the hottest of all desks, I would think.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:12Tucker Carlson?

  Most scrutiny, most at stake rhetoric, most closely supervised, I would, I'm just guessing, but right?

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Yes, it's true. The press officer for Israeli Palestinian Affairs, you're on a stage constantly because you're getting the most questions from reporters, for good reason. The spokesperson is going to deal with the most questions at the podium about the topic. And so it was a compliment, yet difficult for me to process the fact that I was requested from various people in leadership when the administration was changing in January. They said, hey, I know you've only been here for a couple of months, but we're going to put you on this in this position, which was surprising, but I wanted to take on the challenge at the time.

• 5:00Tucker Carlson?

  Really? So you were asked to do that by the incoming administration, by the Trump administration?

• 5:05Speaker 02

  It was, well, it was people from, it was leadership in NEA, which some of them were civil servants, but they were experienced people that were that recognized how heavy a topic it was going to be coming in.

• 5:16Tucker Carlson?

  Huh. How do you get current on that? How do you do your research?

• 5:21Speaker 02

  So it's it's multi-fold. So we do receive like, in terms of standard mainstream media, we do get like copies of articles and coverage. And it's not necessarily politically isolated, at least in the beginning it wasn't. So I would see everything in my email inbox, plus personally, right? I'm always absorbing things. And you're only going to be a good press officer if you're reading Twitter and the standard emails you're getting through the inbox.

• 5:49Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  So you're absorbing a lot of information and it's not just the details. Like, of course, if I have a question, I'm going to go to the Israel experts at the State Department. So if there's a detail I don't know, there might be a desk officer or someone like that that would know that the those the numbers or the challenges that that I need for a specific press line. For me, though, as a press officer, my addition in those conversations is like more stylistic. Okay, if we put this line out there, we're going to invite these problems, or it's good if we say it this way, because this will help us, it'll defend us in this other way. So it was a stylistic endeavor for from day to day.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  And you don't have full control because I'm obviously the personality of someone at the podium is going to say it one way, even though I was hoping this line would deliver this other way, right? You don't, you have full control, but you you do have a.

• 6:45Tucker Carlson?

  Who's the spokesman for the Near East?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Well, right now, it's it's more the spokesperson of the entire department that I was briefing.

• 6:52Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  So it was Tammy Bruce. She left. And then there's deputies that are currently.

• 6:57Tucker Carlson?

  Where did Tammy Bruce go?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  She's going to the UN from understanding.

• 7:01Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 7:03Tucker Carlson?

  So were you given parameters? Like, how do you get your orders? Like, we do say this, we don't say that.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  So the main day-to-day activity, and I think people may not be aware of, but are probably not aware of, is that I have these packets called press guidance, called PG. So on Tuesday and Thursday, which are the days that a spokesperson would go on to the podium, I would have all the sample questions. And some of them were tasked from the main press office in, at the State Department. But I also would come up with my own questions, like, hey, we're getting this question a lot, we need to have lines for this, so we can't leave this alone. So I'd have, I'd create a packet, clear it through the building, like I was saying earlier, through the seventh floor, and then I'd present that brief to the spokesperson about two hours before she went on to the podium.

• 7:57Tucker Carlson?

  How do you know what the official US position, especially on that topic, Israel-Palestine? I mean, that's, again, the most politicized area there is, and it's, the stakes are high. So how do you know what the official US position is on that conflict?

• 8:13Speaker 02

  It's a very good question, and especially in the beginning of the administration, it's a bit of an art. You're taking the gold for a press officer or lines from the principals. Essentially, if President Trump says something, if Special Envoy Whitkoff says something, I take those quotes and I'm like, oh, that's policy. So if he's talking about-

• 8:33Tucker Carlson?

  And I think that's literally true, right? I mean, the president-

• 8:35Speaker 02

  That's policy, yup.

• 8:36Tucker Carlson?

  Sort of unilaterally can form our foreign policy.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's no questioning, like, a quote that comes from a principal, especially President Trump, or Secretary Rubio for the State Department is often the case. So I would take those lines and it would answer certain questions that would come up. Where are we with the ceasefire? Oh, Special Envoy Whitkoff went on XYZ Sunday show, so I'll pull that line and I'll brief the spokesperson, and then she or he can quote Special Envoy Whitkoff at the podium again, because that's the policy. That's the easiest way of doing it. You don't always have quotes. So what would happen instead is you kind of have-

• 9:13Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ever get questioned on that?

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Question on.

• 9:16Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, if you say, you know, you should respond in this way and then cite the president or Steve Whitkoff or Secretary Rubio, then that kind of, that kind of ends the conversation, right?

• 9:25Speaker 02

  It should end the conversation. Uh, I, what was surprising, and this will go back to why, when I ended up departing and getting fired.

• 9:32Tucker Carlson?

  Getting fired, yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Fired in August was that on a specific question, one of the three events I think led up to, uh, uh, my firing, uh, was on a Monday, we received a question about forced displacement, which essentially ethnic cleansing and what our policy was about Israel intending to move Palestinians in Gaza to South Sudan. So.

• 9:56Tucker Carlson?

  To South Sudan?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was every, like, every two or three months, we had a new, um, reporting would come out. In the spring, it was they're moving Palestinians in Gaza to Libya. There was a rumor about Somaliland, even though we don't recognize Somaliland, but there was reporting about, are we going to do an exchange where we recognize Somaliland, but they have to take on Palestinians. And then we had an Ethiopia round, and then the la- last round that I witnessed before I left was, uh, South Sudan. So.

• 10:27Tucker Carlson?

  And so that appears in, somewhere in the press?

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Appears somewhere in the press, and we received a question, what's your response to this reporting? And then, um, I, in, I came up the line, not, but it wasn't a line that like I just came up out of the blue, it was something that President Trump and Special Envoy Whitkoff had said in other words in the spring. I said, we do not support forced displacement.

• 10:50Tucker Carlson?

  And why, what did they say about it? So that was your interpretation of what they said? Do you remember what they said, what Whitkoff and Trump said on that topic?

• 10:59Speaker 02

  So specifically Special Envoy Whitkoff said something, we're not, said something along the lines of, we're not trying to evict anybody.

• 11:04Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  So. From as a press officer, there's an art to it, right? Because you're not, you can sometimes do the exact quote, or you can come up with a new line that reflects that quote.

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• 14:28Tucker Carlson?

  I think forced displacement and eviction are synonyms.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:31Tucker Carlson?

  Any fair person would say that, yeah?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  And keep in mind, this had already been cleared. It was approved for about a couple of weeks before this particular question popped up. Because the Ethiopia rumor was like July 28th. So I put it in the PG, put it in the packet, cleared through. I briefed it multiple times. So when that question came up, I said, I actually probably have the right to just send that line because I cleared so many times. But to be extra careful, I sent it out to the spokesperson and their staff and made sure the most important equities were re-clearing it. And from my understanding, now, I wasn't on the chain, but from my understanding, they went to the secretary's office

• 15:16Speaker 02

  and they cut that line of "we do not support forced displacement." The only other bullet that we have, which is pretty standard, is "we don't discuss private diplomatic conversations." Which is standard, what you always say, you know?

• 15:30Tucker Carlson?

  "The investigation is ongoing."

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's one of those lines, a kind of pretty standard. So that line was there. So that's all we ended up providing.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  So there's some sensitivity, which I found very odd because...

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Out of the three events, I can get into the other ones, but that was like number two. But when the day or the two days before I was fired, that Thursday and Friday, the only feedback that I got, because my bureau was confused as to why the secretary's office was coming down on me, right? Because they don't know me. They don't interact with a random press officer at NEA, right? Maybe a little bit more because of the sensitive topic, but chances are generally low. My leadership said, hey, they're asking where you got that line from, from Monday. I'm like, today's Thursday. You four days later, they're asking me where I got this line that I drafted, but they cut it. I went through the procedure, right? I cut it. They cut it and the reporter never saw that line.

• 16:28Tucker Carlson?

  Did they explain why they cut it?

• 16:30Speaker 02

  No. All I got from, all I heard, all I witnessed was the acting spokesperson saying-

• 16:36Tucker Carlson?

  So you were paraphrasing the envoy, Steve Witkoff, and the President of the United States, Donald Trump, when you said the United States does not support forced displacement?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:51Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think we do support that, do we, by the way?

• 16:54Speaker 02

  I would hope so.

• 16:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, one would hope not. Right. And especially, we're not going to pay for that. And they cut that out, but didn't explain why.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:02Tucker Carlson?

  And then your supervisors came to you and said, hey, they're complaining about you, basically.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Right. And they didn't, they only specified that line, just like the act of drafting it. And I was like, I have a track record. They asked me Thursday afternoon and Friday morning, twice in a row, which is very odd for a random bullet. I was like, I have a, I have the evidence from July 28th of clearing this press guidance with that line. And here are the relevant quotes.

• 17:26Tucker Carlson?

  Did anyone say, by the way, you may not know this, but the United States does support forced displacement?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  No one said that. No one said that. But, by the way, sorry, I got it wrong.

• 17:35Tucker Carlson?

  We're all about forced displacement. Okay. We want, we want, kind of want to- Trail of tears situation here because we're for that.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  It's it's tragic because it's such a standard.

• 17:45Tucker Carlson?

  So bonkers.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's something you would want to advertise. Want to put out there that we're against this. Like, hey, we still have some moral standing somewhere. And when the Washington Post piece came out like yesterday, two days ago, saying there's some plan involving the consultations of Tony Blair of of moving Gazans out and we but we may pay for something, a piece of it. I'm like, why? So is this why I got fired? Is because I was I was still sticking to this line and they saw me as some kind of obstacle, which I wasn't because I was going through the exact procedures they wanted. But I knew that when I was fired, as someone who was, again, close with political appointees and with civil servants and was pretty well established in NEA.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Again, like I said earlier, you don't get this role covering Israeli Palestinian affairs on a whim. And I was suddenly pushed out. That means things are going to go into a very radical direction.

• 18:42Tucker Carlson?

  Well, yeah, I should also say, because I I know that you will be attacked and I'll be attacked for speaking to you on the following grounds. This guy is a partisan Democrat who liked Bernie. He was a saboteur, a wrecker.

• 18:56Tucker Carlson?

  I know from our conversations off camera, at least what you said to me was basically agreed with Trump's foreign policy instincts. You know?

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:04Tucker Carlson?

  Fewer pointless wars, like get along with more people.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was always that's that's fair. I've I've always been an advocate for ending endless war on a personal level. And so when President Trump is saying, hey, we don't want to get into any forever wars. I'm like, that's great. And we technically started with a ceasefire in Gaza and the start of the administration. That was something to to we could have expanded on. We were speaking to the Iranians. So there's so many chances for true peace. But things went in the wrong direction. I would say somewhere in the summer, right? I remember listening to.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  President Trump's speech in Saudi in May, where he was talking about-

• 19:45Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing speech.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Love that speech. I remember, I was, I was like-

• 19:48Tucker Carlson?

  I was cheering.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. And in my, in my cubicle at the state department, I was like, this is a great speech.

• 19:52Tucker Carlson?

  I was too. That was one of the best speeches he's ever given.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  And I was like, this, this is amazing.

• 19:57Tucker Carlson?

  It was ballsy too, this speech.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Calling out neo cons, like-

• 20:00Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  No one calls out neo cons in DC, right?

• 20:02Tucker Carlson?

  No, of course not.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  We, we brushed that under the rug. We kept moving, right? You still see him as an analyst here and there on TV.

• 20:08Tucker Carlson?

  Here and there. They dominate the biggest cable news channel. Yes, I'm aware, yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so glad to see that. But then why, two weeks later, were we sabotaging our own talks with Iran and then bombing them, right? So, the events, like the idea that I'm some partisan is just wrong. I, yes, on a personal avenue, I don't want any more endless wars. And, but President Trump was in line with that. Uh, and I was going, I was doing my job in line with the procedures that were necessary every single day.

• 20:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but it sounds like you agreed with him. So I guess that's my point. If you, you like that, I mean, I don't know. You know, a lot of these, some of the labels are real, but some of them are also created and certainly sustained in order to keep people from listening to each other, so they don't discover they actually agree on a lot.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:55Tucker Carlson?

  And if you love the Saudi speech, and I love the Saudi speech, then we're probably not too far from each other then. Cause I thought that, and that was a Donald Trump speech. And by the way, if you're such a partisan Democrat, you're admitting on camera that you loved a Donald Trump speech, you're not too partisan, I guess. Uh, but anyway, I, I just wanna see, cause I'm, here I'm-

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Honesty is, it matters. Yeah. It's like, it's the, it's the, it's the issues we have in foreign policy that I matter, that I care about. I don't care about the labels per se.

• 21:21Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't either. Well, they're clearly meaningless.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:23Tucker Carlson?

  If we're both cheering on the Riyadh speech. So yes, okay. I just wanted to establish that. So you start hearing from your bosses, like, hey, what is this thing that you put in there about opposing forced displacement? We've always-

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, four or five days earlier, not even like- The next day, there was a delay annoyance. It was weird.

• 21:43Tucker Carlson?

  Huh. So you said that there were three examples of this where they found problems with your work.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Right. And some of this, it kind of made sense from hindsight because I didn't like in the moment, I didn't realize. But Sunday, Israel had had struck a tent with several journalists living inside, including Anas, who had two millions of people had watched to cover the events in Gaza. They all died. I drafted a line, a few lines. And by the way, there were not some softy lines. The only thing that was there that they didn't like was I did share condolences, which is pretty standard policy.

• 22:23Tucker Carlson?

  Condolences? What do you mean?

• 22:25Speaker 02

  So I said, we share condolences for the families of the killed journalists. That's all.

• 22:30Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that sounds, that sounds like hate speech to me.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:34Tucker Carlson?

  Condolences to the families of people who got killed.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:37Tucker Carlson?

  Noncombatants killed in war.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Yep. Yep. And it was so disappointing, too, was that.

• 22:42Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, wait. So what, so what happened when you put that in there?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  I was immediately told from a senior official that we don't know what Anas did essentially. And I was like, that's odd.

• 22:58Tucker Carlson?

  What he did?

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Like, we don't know what his like, conduct was like, we don't know, we need like, we need more information. He might, it was, she or he was alluding to the fact that he may have done something or he's a, he's a problematic actor in some way, but it was weird.

• 23:15Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I, I, let me just say, I would be totally comfortable sharing condolences with Osama bin Laden's family. I hate Osama bin Laden. On the other hand, if somebody dies, it's okay to say, I'm sorry to his family that.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  He had a toddler.

• 23:30Tucker Carlson?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:32Tucker Carlson?

  That's immaterial. I would say that to the family of an executed murderer in a prison. It doesn't mean I support the murder or the murderer, but this is family. Like, that's okay. That's called like human decency. And anyone who's against that.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it seemed like we're setting up this constant, this is my issue that I noticed from the get-go, the constant deferring to Israel. It was like waiting for some statement, like let them speak first. And then on Monday, Israel said, "All Hamas," which is a throwaway line they've used.

• 24:05Tucker Carlson?

  All Hamas, meaning what?

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Their journalists.

• 24:07Tucker Carlson?

  Were all Hamas?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, or at least with Anas, if I remember correctly. And so they brushed that away.

• 24:13Tucker Carlson?

  Were they?

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Look, my point, when I heard that, was what does our intelligence say? If they were like being super strict and said, "Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna triple-check using our US intelligence of who these people are," maybe, maybe, right? I still don't agree with cutting the condolences line, but sure. But why is there, "Oh, Israel said this," done.

• 24:37Tucker Carlson?

  We don't have intel services?

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Right, right. So what's with the instinct to defer to Israel when we have the entire apparatus that could check that? And then by Tuesday-

• 24:47Tucker Carlson?

  We've got like 17 different intelligence services in this country that take, you know, a trillion dollars a year, or whatever the actual budget is, and we don't consult them at all. We wait for the Israeli spokesman to tell us what reality is?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Awful.

• 25:01Tucker Carlson?

  Is that what you're saying?

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And how is that America first, right? This whole apparatus of like, of mirroring certain Israeli statements and waiting for them to comment first was something that I found tragic. It was, it was odd. And that's what ended up happening. By the press briefing that Tuesday, we're like, "We refer you to Israel," which was a line that popped up in my press guidance way too often.

• 25:31Tucker Carlson?

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• 26:16Tucker Carlson?

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• 26:34Speaker 00

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• 27:04Speaker 05

  Now for a quick message from Anthropic, the team behind Claude, the AI built for businesses. Customers count on their bank and banks count on their most important systems. Now those systems count on Claude and nine of the Fortune 10 companies use it for critical work. See why leading companies trust Claude at claude.ai/span.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  We were so we don't have a position on it. Right? Right. And that came up on any, any topic that was.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Somewhat sensitive or waiting for Israel to make a move.

• 27:40Tucker Carlson?

  Does the State Department have any position that contradicts the position of the Israeli government that you're aware of?

• 27:48Speaker 02

  No, I think.

• 27:49Tucker Carlson?

  No?

• 27:50Speaker 02

  The closest, I think, on, on, for US interests, we do, but in our current policy and posture, we do not. So.

• 27:58Tucker Carlson?

  Not one.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  The closest we got.

• 28:01Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have any siblings?

• 28:02Speaker 02

  I do.

• 28:03Tucker Carlson?

  Do you love them?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  I love them.

• 28:04Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have any sticking points with them? Is there, is there something you don't fully agree on?

• 28:08Speaker 02

  As any siblings do.

• 28:09Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. Exactly. So loving someone or having an alliance with someone or even like sharing the same parents as somebody doesn't mean that you have to agree on every little point.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  It would be weird if you did.

• 28:21Tucker Carlson?

  It would be weird.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:23Tucker Carlson?

  Identical twins have disagreed.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  This is getting a little weird. Why is, why is, why is it not acting like this? It's very strange. And the closest we came, and there was no follow through, was when, I actually liked the statement. It was a thousand other things that I had personal issues, which was irrelevant. But Ambassador Huckabee, when there was like these, these Taib attacks against Christians in West Bank, he did put out a statement saying, these attacks are unacceptable. We call on Israel to investigate. But there's no follow through, right?

• 28:51Tucker Carlson?

  What do you mean?

• 28:53Speaker 02

  He had a statement that said.

• 28:54Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I remember it very well.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  There's no, yeah, there's no, there's no follow through. And like, you're like, oh, that's a good statement. That's, I'm like, wow.

• 29:00Tucker Carlson?

  You can't attack Christians with US tax dollars. Sorry.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yep.

• 29:04Tucker Carlson?

  And not allowed.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 29:05Tucker Carlson?

  I don't care who you are.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  And it was, it was just, it was one statement and there was no like, and if we got questions, like, hey, what's the status of the investigation?

• 29:14Speaker 02

  We freed Israel, right? So.

• 29:16Tucker Carlson?

  So no one at the State Department looked into it?

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Not that I saw.

• 29:21Tucker Carlson?

  This is a majority Christian country, but nobody felt like that would be a good use of American tax dollars to find out what this was or ask anybody any questions.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  And that's the thing. Each time there's a call for investigation, a very rare opportunity that that's in front of us, there's no follow through. The strong statement, we did the thing, and you don't hear about it for, for weeks and months.

• 29:41Tucker Carlson?

  So there's no one at the State Department who cared?

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Look, I don't want to speak for the entire, I think there were people that cared. I think there are Christians.

• 29:50Tucker Carlson?

  I cared a lot.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  There are civil servants, there are political pointies, Forest Service officers that see all of this and they're concerned. And, but it's, it's, it's this style of constantly deferring to Israel that's at the forefront. So, we can criticize up to a certain point. And, it's awful because if we want Israel to investigate, then we should be following up and ask, hey, what happened in the investigation? I thought you were going to investigate. Where's, where are the prosecutions? Who, who did all the damage?

• 30:26Tucker Carlson?

  Who did this and why?

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  But, we'd never hear, we'd never hear the follow-up.

• 30:30Tucker Carlson?

  So, there's no, as far as you're aware, mechanism in the State Department to, because you've described a relationship that's unique. There's no other country in the world that has this relationship with the United States. And a lot of resources go into supporting that country. But, there's no mechanism in the United, in the US State Department to like follow-up on this?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Look, on, in the public realm, because I was working, I work as a press officer, right? So, I'm always working with reporters and how, like this, the presentation, those things matter. So, if there was a system of following up, I didn't see it. It's possible. Personally, I kind of doubt it.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  But on the public realm-

• 31:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, if they followed up, you would have known about it because what if somebody asks you?

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Right. And you would think that if there was follow-up, you'd want to advertise it too. Like, hey, we followed up. But, they were, they were, the preference was to defer and deflect and give Israel more time.

• 31:30Tucker Carlson?

  Nobody gives a shit. You persecute, you know, Christians with American tax dollars, nobody cares.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Sorry, you're making me mad.

• 31:39Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's just frustrating. It's frustrating.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I know, it is.

• 31:42Tucker Carlson?

  Frustrating to see people get shot because it's not a, it's not a neutral situation. Like, some people are winning and some people are losing. And if the losers are people that you, you know, didn't do anything wrong, the Christians aren't in Hamas, like, what, what's, what's their crime?

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Look, the scenes, the scenes are horrific, so on a human level, it shouldn't matter. But if that's the whole thing of having Ambassador out could be there, it's like, at least, maybe they'll care about this, and then, yeah, you put a strong statement out, but don't follow up.

• 32:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, they don't care at all.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  And what's the point?

• 32:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, right. The self-described Christians don't care at all about the Christians. And by the way, the whole justification for all this, you just said it. These journalists get blown up, they were Hamas. Okay, end of conversation. No one can plausibly claim that a Christian family are in Hamas. Okay, so like, what, tell me, you can't claim that they're in Hamas while simultaneously claiming that Hamas is, you know, group of jihadis, Islamic extremists, which they also claim constantly, which I don't, I don't know if that's true, by the way, it seems more like a political organization, but whatever it is, they're telling us constantly they're Al Qaeda. So it can't also be true that Christians are a member of Al Qaeda. Sorry.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:50Tucker Carlson?

  So then we know they're not in Hamas, so why did they get killed? Why was their church blown up? Why were they killed in that hospital? Like, what is this? And there's not one person in the State Department who cares enough to get to the bottom of that question.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And all you saw, I mean, all I saw, President Trump did call Prime Minister Netanyahu, and Netanyahu gave an apology for the, the church that was attacked in Gaza.

• 33:10Tucker Carlson?

  One of many.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  But there's, there's never follow-up. There's never like, hey, we, this, this is the prosecution. This is where our investigation landed. It's this quick, two-hour brush on the rug, put a statement out, and then you don't hear anything ever again.

• 33:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Wow. Okay.

• 33:33Tucker Carlson?

  The third example of work that you produced that your superiors were unhappy with and that led ultimately to your firing was what?

• 33:41Speaker 02

  So it was a Tuesday. So that's the press guidance day of all the sample questions. It was actually arguably, we said OBE, which meant overcome by events, which means that we're like beyond its relevancy, but like it was still could have come up. So I put it, I left it in there was a reaction to Speaker Johnson visiting the settlements in the West Bank. And I had a line, pretty standard and kind of not, not very specific, but it said, we support stability in the West Bank.

• 34:14Tucker Carlson?

  Stability?

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. We support stability. That's all. So, and the last, well, the last piece was comma, which helps secure Israel, right?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  But the, I think the stable comment was, I don't know, too much because if we say we want stable West Bank, are we accidentally being critical of something Speaker Johnson or Israel is doing, right? So.

• 34:36Tucker Carlson?

  What is that? Flesh that out if you don't mind.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 34:39Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, I know, I know what you're saying, but I'm not sure everyone does.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  I, yeah, it's a good question. So.

• 34:43Tucker Carlson?

  So why would the US government, so the US government is against extending condolences to the families of noncombatants killed?

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 34:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 34:52Tucker Carlson?

  And the US government is also now in favor of the forced movement of large populations outside their borders, right? Okay. And now you're saying the US government is against stability?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:05Tucker Carlson?

  How are we against stability? Why is stability a bad thing?

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Now, stability is a word that's used a lot and we are on paper saying we support stability in the region all the time. But in this specific context, when discussing settlements, it will sound like we're critiquing Israel indirectly by saying we support stability in reaction to a question about settlements, right? So that was how I interpreted the issue.

• 35:30Tucker Carlson?

  So in other words, that would, you might be suggesting that the US government opposes radical demographic change in the West Bank.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Right. Now I had this line, again, just like the forced displacement, it had cleared previously, but this is where, what was discussed when this first broke in my firing in the, in the Washington Post was that senior officials from Embassy Jerusalem.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  David Milstein specifically would occasionally pop into my docs. Now, it didn't happen every single day.

• 36:00Tucker Carlson?

  Pop into your docs?

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Like at a Google Doc, right? Or a, it wasn't a Google Doc. It was a, it was, I don't know, the brand doesn't matter.

• 36:07Tucker Carlson?

  But some internal system.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, an internal system. I would share it with, in the morning, the equities I was mentioning. One of the equities is Embassy Jerusalem.

• 36:16Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so an equity, just for State Department speak. People haven't heard it. Tell us what an equity is.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  So someone has some stake in those lines.

• 36:24Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  And Embassy Jerusalem does, obviously, because they're the ones that are.

• 36:28Tucker Carlson?

  The US Embassy in Jerusalem.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  The US Embassy in Jerusalem.

• 36:31Tucker Carlson?

  American diplomats posted to Israel.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  On those press briefing days, I would share it with them for them to review the document and be like, okay, these are our press lines for these sample questions. Are you okay with them? Now, it was interesting because they often did not clear, they didn't reject it. They just, with a non-response, because the press officers there would defer up the chain to David Milstein and Ambassador Huckabee, because they didn't want to put their name on it. Because if it's something they didn't like, no one wants their name on a press guidance that wasn't approved by these influential people.

• 37:04Tucker Carlson?

  Who is David Milstein?

• 37:05Speaker 02

  He is the senior advisor to Ambassador Huckabee.

• 37:08Tucker Carlson?

  And what's his, how old is he? What's his background? Is he a career diplomat or?

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Uh, he's a, from my understanding, he's a political. I believe he worked on the Hill.

• 37:19Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, did he work for Ted Cruz?

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, he worked for Ted Cruz. Okay.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  And he is the stepson of your best friend, Mark Levin.

• 37:28Tucker Carlson?

  He's Mark Levin's stepson?

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:31Tucker Carlson?

  He's working at the State Department?

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 37:33Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:18Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:49Speaker 00

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• 39:19Speaker 05

  Now for a quick message from Anthropic, the team behind Claude, the AI built for businesses. Customers count on their bank, and banks count on their most important systems. Now those systems count on Claude, and nine of the Fortune 10 companies use it for critical work. See why leading companies trust Claude at claude.ai/span.

• 39:43Tucker Carlson?

  Like SimpliSafe. So David Milstein is a political guy working now for Mike Huckabee in Jerusalem, and he was going through your lines.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 39:53Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Now, on paper, he could be, but the way that he would edit my docs as aggressively as he would, and we can get into this, but the other statements and pieces that were reported in Washington Post, he would push a certain agenda that was very aligned with Israel that I found very problematic. Now, in this specific example, because we're discussing the third example of why I was fired, was that he changed the stability line. To, uh, we commend Speaker Johnson for visiting Judea and Samaria. So we, as a government-

• 40:32Tucker Carlson?

  What's Judea and Samaria?

• 40:34Speaker 02

  It's a, I, it's a term that is ba- it's, it's like religious. It's, it's, it's about Israel's land grab of the West Bank. It's-

• 40:45Tucker Carlson?

  Are Judea and Samaria like administrative districts?

• 40:49Speaker 02

  No, there, it's not-

• 40:50Tucker Carlson?

  Is there a mayor of Samaria?

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Nope, doesn't exist.

• 40:52Tucker Carlson?

  Uh, and- Okay, so there's no actual place called Judea and Samaria?

• 40:56Speaker 02

  We call, we see-

• 40:57Tucker Carlson?

  Like, the civil authorities don't recognize Judea or Samaria?

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 41:00Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Nope. It's the more extreme wing of the, uh, elements of Israeli government. And David Milstein was in line with that language. And it's designed to erase any possibility and legitimacy that this is, this is supposed to be-

• 41:18Tucker Carlson?

  So the point is, by using those terms, they're biblical terms. They refer to regions described in what Christians call the Old Testament. And the point is to remind everybody that this land was promised by God to the Jewish peoples, the Hebrew people. And that, you know, anyone who's lived there subsequently for the last 3,000 years has no right to it.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:38Tucker Carlson?

  That's the, that's, that's the point. But I, but from a sort of government perspective, Judea and Samaria are not real places in that they're not-

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Not recognized, not used.

• 41:51Tucker Carlson?

  They're not provinces, they're not-

• 41:53Speaker 02

  And, and-

• 41:54Tucker Carlson?

  Do they have clearly defined borders?

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Not from my understanding. I think they do, they do not. And that would increase, that would give you, uh, the open-

• 42:00Tucker Carlson?

  What the fuck?

• 42:01Speaker 02

  It opens the door to more land grabs, you know, it's, it's-

• 42:04Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but if a place doesn't have a clearly defined border, then how can the US government refer to it in any kind of official capacity?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  They can't. And it's scary too, because if you look at the airstrikes that Israel are doing, like Israel's doing in Syria, and they're building settlements even outside the Golan Heights. It's all part of this-

• 42:27Speaker 02

  This, I don't know what it is, this, this idea of a greater Israel that people are discussing that was beyond these borders. So it's scary and it's, and it's against the stability of the region that we've been calling for as a government for decades.

• 42:41Tucker Carlson?

  So certainly in the modern era, definitely since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, you know, you've had clear borders between countries. In fact, we're fighting a war against Russia right now on the, on the premise that they violated those borders by moving into Eastern Ukraine. So like the US government takes borders very seriously, obviously not including our own. But as a matter of like statecraft and diplomacy, that really, really matters. So you would never use a phrase in an official communication that referred to a place whose territory you couldn't define. That would be

• 43:16Speaker 02

  100%.

• 43:17Tucker Carlson?

  Fucking crazy to do something like that.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  100%.

• 43:20Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So you think this Milstein guy, who is Mark Levin's stepson, you say it's almost like, it's almost like you're making this up. It's like a joke, who worked for Ted Cruz in the Senate, he added this to the statement.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 43:36Tucker Carlson?

  And then did it go out?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  So from that point, I cut it because I accepted most of his edits in the, in the document because going to battle with him was a whole headache because he'll call, he'll push certain things. He was, he was known for doing that. Like he'll, David Milstein phone call was not the favorite thing for folks.

• 43:58Tucker Carlson?

  Like what was it like? Tell it, tell us for those of us who don't work with Mark Levin's stepson at the, at the State Department.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Sure. So he would call and he'd, he'd just push it. Why is, why was that removed? Or why was X, Y, Z done very often? And if you said no, there was a tendency to go up the chain in order for him to push the agenda of any given day. And this is something that I dealt with since very early.

• 44:22Tucker Carlson?

  Where's his, okay. So is he the DCM or?

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Nope. He's just a senior advisor to Ambassador Huckabee.

• 44:27Tucker Carlson?

  He's like an assistant to the US ambassador to Israel.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Correct. And he, just sticking with the public reporting from Washington Post, like he would push in one, in one occasion, statements that were in the voice of Secretary Rubio, not even the spokesperson. And he drafted them, he would push them through, be like, I want this statement out. And

• 44:46Tucker Carlson?

  I want the statement out?

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. He would go through and be like, I drafted this, this is the statement I want. I would go through the process of clearing it, but he would fight for it. Like he'd be in the document, getting in arguments with people one by one in order to kind of overwhelm the process and get certain, um, his agenda out there the way he wanted. It's very difficult.

• 45:11Tucker Carlson?

  On what authority? I mean, that's pretty cheeky behavior for a guy who's an aide to Mike Huckabee, the former cable news host.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Call around the building and, and, and it was, it was very consistent, um, and persistent.

• 45:25Tucker Carlson?

  But he lives in Jerusalem.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  He does.

• 45:28Tucker Carlson?

  What do you mean call around?

• 45:29Speaker 02

  And policy comes from DC. Like this is obviously have influence and they have discussions, but the policy comes from DC.

• 45:35Tucker Carlson?

  So what do you mean call around?

• 45:37Speaker 02

  You'd go up, he would go either laterally or up the chain and call various people and say, hey, Ambassador Huckabee, Huckabee usually, and say, uh, wants this done or in for XYZ reason. And, um, if that person didn't pick up, it would go to the next person. So he would, so even if I, we're discussing equities earlier, if one particular equity said, we can't do this, then he would go up, well, I don't care because this guy above you may clear it.

• 46:08Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 46:09Speaker 02

  And.

• 46:10Tucker Carlson?

  How does he have everyone's number?

• 46:11Speaker 02

  That was, that's what I was wondering. I don't know.

• 46:15Tucker Carlson?

  But David Milstein, an assistant in the US Embassy in Jerusalem, that's, I just want to restate, having grown up around this, that's not a high level post. He's like zero authority to do anything.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  And is drafting a statement on behalf, this is very audacious, to draft a statement on behalf of Secretary Rubio.

• 46:35Tucker Carlson?

  The Secretary of State.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Yes. In one occasion, um, again, referring just to the public reporting was the statement, uh, to condemn Ireland for considering a, a bill that would put economic sanctions on Israel.

• 46:51Tucker Carlson?

  Condemn Ireland?

• 46:54Speaker 02

  As you can imagine, folks-

• 46:55Tucker Carlson?

  So David Milstein was demanding, in effect, that the Secretary of State condemn Ireland? Because Ireland defended the government of Israel?

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, actually, if I remember correctly, strongly condemn, which doesn't really, in diplomatic speaking, you don't add strongly. But yes, strongly condemn Ireland.

• 47:11Tucker Carlson?

  As a nation?

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Well, the government, I guess. I don't remember the language, but-

• 47:18Tucker Carlson?

  Did Rubio read it?

• 47:20Speaker 02

  That was a rare occasion where it went up the ladder and it was eventually killed, but it required the European Affairs Bureau and NEA and everyone to- it took a lot of effort because he was so laser-focused on getting that through. And who is a-

• 47:37Tucker Carlson?

  Would that be good for the United States condemning Ireland?

• 47:40Speaker 02

  It would be good for Israel. Could use our political and diplomatic capital on the statement that would punish Ireland for considering something.

• 47:52Tucker Carlson?

  The official story on 9/11 is a complete lie. The 9/11 report is a joke.

• 47:58Speaker 06

  You have the CIA following two men all over the planet and then eventually even to America, right? And you don't tell the FBI. 9/11 Commission, cover.

• 48:15Tucker Carlson?

  So what did happen? What did the government know? What did foreign governments know? There was a cover-up. Why? It's been nearly 25 years and it's time Americans learned what actually happened. We're going to tell you. We're releasing one episode per week. You're not going to want to wait. If you're a member, you don't have to. You get all five episodes the day it drops, right then, ad-free. Our first episode airs Thursday, 9/11, September 11th. You will not want to miss it. Join us now at TuckerCarlson.com.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 49:22Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ever see, it sounds like you had a lot of contact or could see David Milstein at work a lot. It sounds like he was a pretty big figure in your office in DC, though he's an assistant to the-

• 49:32Speaker 02

  It was very sudden. It was like, oh, you don't hear from him for three days. All of a sudden, you're getting a phone call and a bunch of edits on something and they disappear again.

• 49:38Tucker Carlson?

  Did he have your cell?

• 49:39Speaker 02

  The work cell.

• 49:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, he did. How'd he get your number?

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Well, at that point, early on, I think someone asked that I shared with them. So that was on my end.

• 49:51Tucker Carlson?

  Wow. But did you ever see David Milstein, like, thinking about what's good for the United States? Or getting aggressive on behalf of what our interests might be as distinct from Israel's interests?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  I perceived a lot of his actions as very Israel-first, from my point of view, because that statement didn't make sense. Those edits, the press lines, didn't make sense. And in particular with Judea and Samaria, that not only would not make sense for how dangerous it is, for what that means, because as you discussed, there's no land barrier to that, but it hurts our relationships to the region. For example, we rely on Jordan for so many things. But if we start calling it Judea and Samaria, that undermines our military relationship, our relationship dealing with refugees in Jordan.

• 50:39Tucker Carlson?

  Well, so some of that land is in Jordan.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 50:43Tucker Carlson?

  Right. So, I mean, you can't, I mean, if-

• 50:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that would cause problems.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  And that's one example, like the whole region.

• 50:52Tucker Carlson?

  So these are not, this is diplomacy. This is the State Department of the United States of America, which is still a global superpower even now. And so Jordan, the Jordan economy relies on US aid.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:05Tucker Carlson?

  We proffer that aid at the request of Israel, because Jordan is filled with refugees in the 1948 war that created Israel and subsequent refugees, 67, and filled with refugees, including from Syria, a war that we fought, um, half Israel. So we pay Jordan, we also pay Egypt to keep them calm. And now you're saying he wanted to issue a statement saying to Jordan, by the way, part of your territory and your, what you thought was a sovereign nation actually doesn't belong to you.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And just, so terrible. And so we can, we can go back to that day three, because I cut that line. And by the way, this isn't a unilateral action by me. There are others who agree with me. So I'm not doing it with the backing of, of my own thoughts.

• 51:53Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's not a hard one. Judea and Samaria, I mean, isn't there, I mean, it's been a long time since I ran the State Department, but I mean, I always thought there was like a, like there's a protocol to things, which in some cases is silly, but some cases is real. Like, do we refer to that region as Judea and Samaria? Or don't we? Like, this is something that's been gone over before, correct?

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, we, we don't.

• 52:15Tucker Carlson?

  And we don't, we don't.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  We never have. Secretary Rubio did not use it. President Trump did not use it. Ambassador Huckabee has. Now that was, that's different.

• 52:26Tucker Carlson?

  Did anyone ever ask Ambassador Huckabee, what, what land specifically are you referring to when you say that?

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Not from what I've seen.

• 52:32Tucker Carlson?

  Because reporters are morons, that's why. Well, somebody asked like an obvious question like Judea and Samaria, where's that? Can you draw it for me on a map? Show me the boundaries of this place you're talking about.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Well, even if they did ask, the lines wouldn't even answer the question directly. Right. Because in person, they should have asked him, yes, I agree.

• 52:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. What, what, what are you talking about? Where is that?

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:51Tucker Carlson?

  No one will ever ask that question.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  And Ambassador Huckabee always had extreme comments, either in person or on his Twitter account. But for most of my time at the State Department, the response would be, well, those are Ambassador Huckabee's words. So we do this dance. But now, now that especially after firing me, you're getting an unleashed embassy Jerusalem. Because who's going to do anything to stop them? Because they already had so much influence to begin with. But when I'm used as an example, they fire me as someone who did the very basic thing of cutting a line that did not make sense.

• 53:30Tucker Carlson?

  It's also inconsistent with longstanding US policy.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Right. And if you want to keep your job, who in the future is going to want to?

• 53:37Tucker Carlson?

  I'm, here's where you're confusing me. Now, I know that you say he's Mark Levin's stepson, but I mean, nobody takes Mark Levin seriously. And no one watches his show and like, he's just not a real, not a real person. He's like an angry old man on Twitter. Who cares who stepson he is? Like, why doesn't anyone say, hey, tell that Milstein kid to shut the fuck up? Like, that's not hard. Why doesn't someone do that?

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Honestly, that was, that was my question. I did not know why people would like, people would acknowledge the pushiness. But that's all I really got.

• 54:13Tucker Carlson?

  No one ever told him to stop?

• 54:16Speaker 02

  It was difficult to say no to him on a lot of occasions. So people did say no, but it took a lot of effort. So from my vantage point, I'm wondering, why would someone have so much influence? And why are people almost tiptoeing around it?

• 54:31Tucker Carlson?

  It sounds like they were.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Right. And you'd have to take a group effort of, okay, this bureau and this bureau don't want to put this statement out. And then it would go away, but that was it.

• 54:42Tucker Carlson?

  So is really a lot of this, you think, based on your experience, was coming from this one guy?

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Correct. Now, it was him, although you're right that he does have limitations over his title, right? He can't, an advisor to Ambassador Huckabee can't fire me. But he does have particular people on the seventh floor, and what I mean by seventh floor is people around Secretary Rubio, that from my perspective, he looped in the neocons that were influential, and they had the power to do so. So he would rile them up on Israel, or me, or whatever issue there was, and they would come down. So my firing didn't come from Milstein.

• 55:25Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  It came from Secretary Rubio's staff. And these are like, a couple of Heritage Foundation guys who are foreign policy. You can say, oh, President Trump, you know, he's gonna have Heritage guys there, that's his right as someone who won the election. But if you listen to President Trump on foreign policy, it doesn't make sense to have a bunch of Heritage guys around you.

• 55:46Tucker Carlson?

  So you said that Milstein, who is a nobody on the org chart, had sort of amazing power, including making personnel decisions effectively, because he would just go everyone's up, over everyone's head, along the chain, up to and including the seventh floor management level at the State Department, and had influence with people on Secretary Rubio's staff. Do you know who?

• 56:16Speaker 02

  My understanding was that it was his deputy chief of staff that came down in order to essentially fire me. Now-

• 56:27Tucker Carlson?

  I think that'd be Dan Holler, formerly of Heritage. Possible? Possible, okay. So you'd heard that?

• 56:33Speaker 02

  I heard that.

• 56:34Tucker Carlson?

  But it was pretty clear to you that it was David Milstein, this assistant to the US ambassador to a foreign country, who was basically line-editing statements out of State Department HQ?

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And what was another hint, too, was that I had flagged for the spokesperson's staff, the intention to add Judea-Samaria, just the FYI, if this happened, right? And the next day, which was Wednesday, instead of like moving along, the staff asked-

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Actually, the acting spokesperson asked to speak with David Milstein about the West Bank lines, but without me. And then the next day is when Thursday is when people started coming down on me. So the way I pieced it together was that that conversation about West Bank lines and Milstein being aware that I cut the Judea and Samaria line led to the Thursday, Friday crackdown from the secretary's office.

• 57:38Tucker Carlson?

  Just to be clear, again, putting Judea and Samaria in an official US government communication is like using the term Narnia or something. It's not a real place.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 57:48Tucker Carlson?

  This is Fantasyland and it's beneath a great power to even have dumb conversations like this.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  It opens the door to instability. It opens the door to hurting our relationships significantly with our partners. It doesn't serve US interests to-

• 58:05Tucker Carlson?

  At all.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  At all.

• 58:07Tucker Carlson?

  Um, okay. Did anyone else at the State Department share these views? Like, that that crosses, just as someone from DC, I just like, no, that that crosses like a bright, bright line.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, there, there are folks who might be close to that worldview. But from my personal interactions, Milstein was the farthest out there.

• 58:34Tucker Carlson?

  Did, I have to ask this, but, but I just want to be clear. I don't think you should punish people for their relatives. So I'm not mad at David Milstein because his stepfather is a douche. I mean, that's certainly not his fault at all. And neither is David Milstein, Mark Levin's fault. So I just want to be clear about that. I don't believe in collective punishment, unlike some other countries like Israel, which is big on collective punishment. I oppose it completely as a Christian. So I'm not engaging in it here. But did you ever see Mark Levin over there? Did he have any role in? The operation of the State Department.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  I never came across anything. I think there's a lot happening above my head regardless. Just even my firing, it's like embassy Jerusalem was contacting this guy who was then trying to crack down on me and then it's a mystery for a day or two why that's happening and then it becomes clear. So those conversations are concerning and it makes you question like if we're talking about the Saudi speech in May of President Trump, how do we go from that kind of statement to these kind of policies? And so that is my biggest question out of all of this is why did this pivot happen? And what does this mean for Israel policy moving forward? It's already extreme to begin with. Is it going to become even more radical? It already has.

• 59:46Tucker Carlson?

  Does anybody else? I mean, are there other people at State Department? So, you know, you came in not as a former Trump staffer, but as someone who, as you've said, agreed with his basic impulse on foreign policy, which is like, hey, let's, let's have more peace, less war. There must have been other people there who were like full blown America first people, I would think, would hope. Did any of them ever say to you, this isn't really America first?

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  It's true. It's, look, people were happy after Trump won when like, okay, we're doing, we're getting Trump two, but we don't have John Bolton and Michael Pompeo and Nikki Haley back again. Right? The issue is a lot of the personnel problems are still there, but at a more, it's like, it's more subtle. Like Ambassador Huckabee, to me, is still part of that same grouping in terms of the damage it can do in our foreign policy. Right? And.

• 1:00:43Tucker Carlson?

  Well, so give me an example of the damage you think Huckabee has done to American foreign policy, since you paid close attention to his statements and I, and I really haven't.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Well, that's, it's, it's the lack of accountability for, well.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Having Milstein around, adding Julius Maria, you know, right? Like, these are your trusted senior advisors, right? And so there's that, there's the no follow through on what happened in Taipei and in the West, in the West Bank and what happened to the church in Gaza. It's our entire Israel policy is, he goes out there, there were tweets from several weeks ago where he was attacking the UK Prime Minister, ambassador was. He started calling the Prime Minister out for questioning Israel's conduct in Gaza. And he said, if you, something along the lines of, if it wasn't for Dresden, you'd all be speaking German. So, green lighting the slaughter of Palestinians, it's interesting, it's okay, which was horrific language.

• 1:01:42Tucker Carlson?

  He endorsed Dresden?

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  It's on Twitter. It was horrific.

• 1:01:46Tucker Carlson?

  The bombing of Dresden?

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  The way, yeah, he was comparing, he was comparing Dresden to what's happening in Gaza and saying-

• 1:01:53Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think there's anybody, it's hardly a pro Hitler, I'm anti Hitler, for whatever it's worth, just to be clear. It's hardly pro Nazi to say that what the Allies did and the British really mostly at Dresden was a war crime. I mean, nobody, nobody would say otherwise. He endorsed Dresden, the Dresden bombing?

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  Who gives an ambassador the green light to poke at a Allies Prime Minister, the UK, a true ally? And to, like, the nonchalant attitude towards the slaughter of people, both in Dresden or comparing it to what's happening in Gaza, is horrific.

• 1:02:35Tucker Carlson?

  That's not, so of course- That's not the Christian view, you know, murdering innocents is always wrong, period.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  That is damaging-

• 1:02:42Tucker Carlson?

  No matter who does it.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Israel's war policy.

• 1:02:44Tucker Carlson?

  I despise the UK and its Prime Minister, and I'm totally happy to urinate on both. But it should be from the perspective of what's good for the United States, not what's good for another country. Like, that's bonkers. That's really, yeah. Does anybody say anything about that, like internally? Is there any effort-

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  All the time, you're like, oh, cringe, people cringe at it when they see all those tweets, but-

• 1:03:05Tucker Carlson?

  Well, so typically in an administration, you know, the ambassador serves the president as his- Diplom, you know, the chief diplomat in the country to which he's posted and, you know, there are a million examples all the time of the ambassador getting called back to Washington or getting a cable from DC. Whoa, that's not our policy. You know, pull it in line with what the president's view is because that's who you work for.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  Right. So if-

• 1:03:32Tucker Carlson?

  And did anyone do that with Huckabee?

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Never. You have, he's representing Secretary Rubio, Secretary Rubio is representing the president and no one is stopping Ambassador Huckabee from going fully unleashed. And that's why my very basic edits and suggestions from that week was such a red flag that he had to get rid of me immediately. What that means is that if we're not stopping Ambassador Huckabee at that level, that becomes policy.

• 1:04:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. Yeah, that's right.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  Right? So that's it. And, and if I'm going to be fired for, for lines of what were or should be, and I think are President Trump's views, then things are moving in a more radical direction and they will.

• 1:04:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. I mean, I guess I am for moving in a bunch of different radical directions, like banning high interest loans. You know, I'm strongly for that. What I'm not in favor of is moving in radical directions on behalf of a foreign country whose interests are not the same as ours, that are aligned on some things and diverge at other points, but they're not the same. Why would you want to be radical on behalf of another country?

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  Right. It makes no sense.

• 1:04:45Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's unpatriotic. It's totally wrong and it's America last. It's also a form of treachery, I think, subverting our foreign policy on behalf of another country that I wasn't, not a citizen of that country. What are you, this is my tax dollars. What are you doing? Right?

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Right. And we did all of this, we're burning diplomatic capital left and right. Australia, the UK, Canada, with all these US allies considering, recognizing the Palestinian state, and we're going out there attacking them one by one on behalf of Israel? Those are our partners. Is it worth-

• 1:05:24Tucker Carlson?

  But we're also not, I mean, Dave, all those countries have basically eliminated human rights in their own countries, eliminated freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of association. They've got political prisoners. It's crazy what those countries are doing to their own citizens. We don't say a word. But if they criticize a foreign, another country, then we attack them?

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have other issues we could discuss with them, but instead we choose to make Israel this odd red line. And it takes a lot of diplomatic capital to attack your allies. We need them for so many things. It doesn't matter if it's, if it's trade or war or some resolution of the UN. This is terrific.

• 1:06:06Tucker Carlson?

  So I just, I want to ask you a couple of just policy questions and mean, and just if you don't mind.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:06:11Tucker Carlson?

  Cause they're speculative, but I, I just want to draw an information that you gleaned in your job at the State Department. What is, is as non-emotional and clinical as you can be? What is the plan here with Gaza and the West Bank? What do you think? I keep wondering like, okay, you know, every day it's a, no, we killed them, but it was a mistake. Or we thought they were Hamas. Okay, got it. But like, what? What is the plan? Are they really going to move 2 million people out of Gaza? Do you think that's actually gonna happen?

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  That's, this is what I'm afraid about. From the, on the West Bank, I think we were setting up

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  annexation. And I think the news for the past couple of days shows that that's true.

• 1:06:56Tucker Carlson?

  What does annexation mean?

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  There's going to be an Israeli takeover of the West Bank and basically Area C is, was supposed to be where the Palestinians had full control. Israelis want to take over that and call the entire West Bank and call it, say, part of Israel. And

• 1:07:17Tucker Carlson?

  Then do the Palestinians who live there get voting rights?

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  These are all questions that they have not answered. I don't, don't believe anyone wants to answer.

• 1:07:26Tucker Carlson?

  Why? It's such an obvious question.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:07:29Tucker Carlson?

  What's your plan? Why, why does no one ask that question?

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  People even, even the IDF in some occasions, in some occasions ask like, hey, this is a military takeover. What are we gonna do? Like, and the ministers don't care.

• 1:07:40Tucker Carlson?

  For whatever it's worth, it's not my country and I'm not that interested, but I just noticed that the IDF, for all the grief that it takes, has actually been a voice of restraint in Gaza and the West Bank, at least publicly. They're like, wait a second, you're asking, I mean, they're just a military.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  They fly going into Gaza City. They're like, hey, this is gonna be

• 1:07:58Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  The same thing.

• 1:08:00Tucker Carlson?

  They're just a military with a bunch of reservists, you know, some professionals, but lots of reservists. And like every military, they kind of want to know why they're putting their lives at risk. That's, at least that's my read on it.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's true. And, and that's a whole nother discussion, but I am worried about the like, political and, and direction of Israel. It's going to be more and more extreme and the, those, uh, guardrails are, are gone. But they're taking over the West Bank. We don't know what that looks like. It's extremely dangerous and it

• 1:08:30Tucker Carlson?

  But what, um, what's the pretext? Cause like, the residents of the West Bank had nothing to do with the attacks on southern Israel, right?

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  But it, it opens the door because you're so focused on, on Gaza and, and this is

• 1:08:43Tucker Carlson?

  But is there justification for it? Is it like, they don't have any hostages in the West Bank, do they?

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  No, no, there, there is no justification. It's, what's awful is that instead of focusing on securing the release of the hostages, or, uh, just securing their own country, they've used this entire, uh, war, it's nearly two years now, to, uh, pursue opportunities. We're gonna bomb Beirut and kill all these civilians. We're gonna, um, bomb Syria, kill civilians on, on too many occasions there. Uh, the bombing raids on Yemen, start a potential war with Iran that if President Trump hadn't ended it, could have gotten into a, sort of spiraled. Uh, and so it's very dangerous that we're letting Israel take the front seat of our

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  US foreign policy when we have the power to end these wars.

• 1:09:36Tucker Carlson?

  Well, we're paying for them. We're paying for them. And we paid for the, you know, the Israeli strikes on Iran. And I've said this to anyone who will listen, I think this will end the Republican Party. I don't think they're going to get elected to anything anytime soon after this. If they don't pull back and establish independence from this, Israel, or any other foreign power. It's not about Israel. It's about letting any other foreign country run your country. You can't have that. Everyone hates it. It's super unpopular and it's very obvious. And if you want more Republicans in office, you can't act like this. Like, I think they're blowing up the party over this. That's my feeling. I'm saying this with love. Unlike

• 1:10:18Tucker Carlson?

  you, I've been a pretty, I don't vote that much, but when I vote, it's Republican, you know?

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  It's true. They voted for America first.

• 1:10:25Tucker Carlson?

  I wouldn't vote for this. No way.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And think about, on one end, it's the America first aspect that's very disappointing because this is America last in every possible way. And on the endless war front, every campaign, every winning presidential candidate said, "We're not going to get, we're trying to avoid these wars," and they don't follow through. And yet, we're now funding this disaster in Gaza.

• 1:10:52Tucker Carlson?

  But do you think that those, I mean, estimates vary. We don't know how many people have been killed in Gaza. No one's allowed to find out.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, 60K is definitely.

• 1:11:02Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think the real number is in Gaza?

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  I've read other folks who give their estimates, and it's always 100,000, up to 200,000, even more. So the numbers that I've seen on the estimate scale are horrific.

• 1:11:20Tucker Carlson?

  Do our intel agencies have good estimates on this?

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  I would imagine.

• 1:11:25Tucker Carlson?

  But those haven't percolated down to the State Department at your level, anyway?

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, absolutely not. And I wish we could be discussing this. And I'm also horrified, not just from the sheer numbers of killed, it's the lingering psychological effect of these poor civilians, like children who've lost limbs, children who lost parents, who the damage is going to be decades and decades long.

• 1:11:48Tucker Carlson?

  For sure. And there will be radicalism, you know, and probably including violence. And I just pray it's not directed against the United States, but I fear that it will

• 1:12:01Tucker Carlson?

  But that leaves what 2 million people still in Gaza Palestinians mostly Muslim but also Christians. What happens to them? I just keep wondering what happens to them?

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  There the policy, the comments, the policies have always shown a certain disdain like, oh, we will pay them off for them to move out. We they're not actually starving. It's all these they're not only are they getting bombed and and and lose their homes and their family members. They're being like thrown around like this annoyance and it's horrible. But just based on the reporting, it looks like we are trying to push them out to a different country. Every two months, there's a new rumor. It seems like we're talking to these other countries in Africa.

• 1:12:45Tucker Carlson?

  The US government is?

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  Well, the depends on each specific case. There has been reporting that Israel is trying to do this on their own. And if we're involved and there's also been some reporting on whether our own government officials have spoken with like the Libin government as well. So.

• 1:13:04Tucker Carlson?

  So do you think it's possible that US government officials have talked to foreign governments about accepting the population of Gaza as refugees? Do you think that's possible?

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:15Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think it's that happened?

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  I it's probable.

• 1:13:20Tucker Carlson?

  That's disgusting. I mean, that's just like shocking to me. I don't want to believe that could be true.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Tucker Carlson?

  And why are we doing that? What do we have to do with this?

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Right. And it's always about our diplomatic power, like Israel's diplomatic power is limited. But who can get these objectives done? We can. So that's why.

• 1:13:40Tucker Carlson?

  And our last act is a superpower.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why these officials from MC Jerusalem are dangerous because they're that connections being made.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 1:13:51Tucker Carlson?

  Like you committed trial. Well, first of all, Mike Huckabee endorsing Dresden. That, you know, I just refer you to the New Testament. That is not, that is not permitted for Christians to be in favor of that. Just, it's just not even close. So I don't know why I know Huckabee, I've always liked him. I don't know what in the world, if he actually said that, I don't know what he was thinking. I'm going to look it up the second we get off this interview. But that's really shocking to me that he would say something like that. But in general, there's been a coarsening, I think, of people watching this stuff, celebrating pager attacks and people getting their dicks blown off, stuff. I mean, like, why would we celebrate that? But Ben Shapiro was on there jumping up and down with glee when that happened.

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  So it's, it's, it's an indictment of like our, our soul. Why are, why did we lose this ability to empathize?

• 1:14:41Tucker Carlson?

  If you think it's thrilling that a country would indiscriminately detonate explosives in people's pockets, where they don't know who's holding those things, actually, they don't know who's standing next to them. If you think that's great, you know?

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Children died.

• 1:14:55Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know. You know, anyway, I, I've, I'm really sickened by it and I'm infuriated by the requirement to celebrate it.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  Right. Why are we in this, in this era of, of like celebrating these violent attacks and celebrating a new weapon that comes out, but each time there's a diplomatic endeavor to end a war, it's so controversial and so heavy and people, it's sold to people in such a negative way. So that, that dichotomy is, is, is a true problem where.

• 1:15:27Tucker Carlson?

  As empires die, people go crazy. This is one of the things that's pretty consistent through history. They lose their sense of reality and they become violent, violence worshippers. And I just hate to see it happening to this country that I love so much and that I'm never leaving. But like, this is really dark. So dark.

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  It is dark.

• 1:15:44Tucker Carlson?

  So what, um, so you don't know, bottom line, what the plan is for the population of Gaza or the West Bank?

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do know they cut my line on forced displacement and now there's new reporting on them moving them out of Gaza. So it's not headed into the right direction.

• 1:15:59Tucker Carlson?

  America is for forced displacement. I think this country was founded by people. Bonkers. Okay. Last question. What was your firing like?

• 1:16:09Tucker Carlson?

  Do they explain to you why you're being let go?

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Never explained anything to me. I, and technically I heard the NEA, my bureau, New York State Affairs, technically never heard either. So really came from up top.

• 1:16:22Speaker 02

  So, very odd. I, they did ask me about that line, that's the only hint that we have.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  Look, the State Department, with all the issues that it has, does have amazing patriotic, patriotic Americans working there every day. I worked with them, they're, they're trying their best, they're, they're doing their work, they're smart. And I, I miss working with them. I do, I was someone that was well established in the building with political appointees and civil servants and, and they just pulled the rug out of, from under me, out of the blue, over what I explained to you earlier, which was pretty basic stuff. And on the Sunday, I believe it was August 17th, lost access. And then I caught a text from a contractor letting me know.

• 1:17:13Tucker Carlson?

  Did you call, have you called David Milstein to ask what happened?

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  I have not, I have not.

• 1:17:19Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe we should call him after this.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Good, you're good. Look, this whole situation was so unexpected, like I was just living my life.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  Going to work every single day, five days a week, I was doing a lot of overtime. I drafted tweets that Secretary Rubio put out, including, I was up at 11:00 PM, 12:00 AM, when the horrific killing of those two Israeli diplomats. I was the one who was up in the middle of the night drafting a tweet for that to come out.

• 1:17:50Tucker Carlson?

  The ones who are murdered in the US.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:17:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, awful.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  So, I was there for all these, these moments and working alongside people with different political backgrounds. And to know that these, these folks, just without discussing with me, without getting to know me, without talking to me, saw those lines and they were like, gone. And it's, it's awful and, and just in the office itself, it just puts this chilling effect for everybody, you know? So I, I will, I will miss those colleagues, but they're good people and they're gonna.

• 1:18:23Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, the interest of the United States should be the beginning and the end of the concern of the State Department.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:18:27Tucker Carlson?

  Period.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:18:28Tucker Carlson?

  So, I appreciate you taking the time to do this.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Thank you for talking to me.

• 1:18:32Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 1:18:36Tucker Carlson?

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