The Sister of Nicole Brown Simpson Speaks Out

What would you do if the person you love most was hiding something that could cost them their life? This conversation has been 32 years in the making for me. Early in my career, I shared an office with someone connected to the Brown family, and I was around them during the trial. I saw how kind and loving that family was, and I watched Denise carry the weight of her sister's murder in front of the entire world. I have three sisters and a daughter. This one is personal. Denise Brown lost her best friend, her sister Nicole, in one of the most public tragedies in American history. Instead of disappearing, she testified before Congress, fought for the Violence Against Women Act, and has spent three decades working with shelters across this country so other families never feel what hers did. I asked Denise the hard questions. Why Nicole never told her family. What she would say to her sister today. How she handled the mocking and criticism. And how one sentence from a pastor changed her relationship with God. What came out of it is a masterclass in honoring your family: keep showing up, keep learning, and keep fighting long after everyone else has moved on. Her new book, For My Sister Nicole: Love Shouldn't Hurt, belongs in the hands of anyone with a sister, a daughter, or a friend they would do anything to protect. Here's what you'll gain from this episode: The silence that protects abusers: Why so many victims never tell the people closest to them, and what Nicole may have been protecting her family from. The wrong things to say: Why your first instinct to help a loved one can push them further away. The TRUST approach: A simple framework for supporting someone who isn't ready to leave. Warning signs that start small: Why you don't need a black eye to be in danger. Faith after tragedy: The words that lifted Denise's anger toward God. Courage under criticism: How Denise stood for her sister while the whole world judged her. Nicole never told her family because she was trying to protect them. Be the brother, sister, or friend someone feels safe telling. Learn the signs, ask better questions, and never stop showing up for the people you love. If you or someone you love needs help, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or visit thehotline.org 👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈 → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ← ➡️ INSTAGRAM ➡️ FACEBOOK ➡️ LINKEDIN ➡️ X ➡️ WEBSITE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ed Mylett?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  This is the Ed and Myron Show.

• 1:09Ed Mylett?

  Welcome back to the show, everybody. So this interview is, I don't know, 30 some odd years in the making.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  32.

• 1:18Ed Mylett?

  32 years in the making. And I really wanted to talk to this woman for a really, really long time. I was just telling her off camera, ironically, I know her other sister, Tanya, and I've met her parents several times because I was in business with somebody connected to their family. And I've just admired her from a distance, the way that she's carried herself all these years in the public eye and through some really, really difficult times. So let me tell you about her. You probably know first her sister, who is Nicole Brown Simpson. And you know that she lost her life in a very tragic event. And since that time, I've watched Denise become this just tremendous advocate for women, violence against women. The Violence Against Women Act was a big thing that she was involved in.

• 2:00Ed Mylett?

  And she's just a stalwart for people that are taken advantage of, and particularly women that are being abused. And so we're going to talk about her sister today. We're going to talk about a little bit of what happened there. And also just overall, this just epidemic, it seems to be, of violence is happening towards women in our world today. And she's written a book that is out today, if you're watching this interview, called For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt. Denise Brown, welcome to the show.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 2:29Ed Mylett?

  I'm so glad you're here. Why now are you writing this book about your sister and the events that took place? Why is this the time to do it?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Well, I think everything, everything runs its course, right? I was not educated about domestic violence. I didn't know anything about it. I was reading her notes and diaries after my sister Dominique found them when my mom, when my dad and her were up in Los Angeles cleaning out her condo. And so when I read these, I, because I was the first one to come out and say, no, Nicole's not a battered woman. That's the, I did an interview with the New York Times saying, no, because I did not know what a battered woman was. And I think that it's taken me this long to actually realize that, hey, you know what? You do know what you're talking about now.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  You do understand domestic violence now. I mean, I learn something new every single day. And the one horrific thing that I did learn just recently was on a podcast that Oprah Winfrey did with Rachel Louise Snyder, that because back in the day, 32 years ago, it was always one in four women.

• 3:44Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Would fall victim to domestic violence. Then it was maybe one in three. Well, just this year, one in two women.

• 3:55Ed Mylett?

  My gosh.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  So that for me was like, oh, my gosh, are we going backwards? What is happening in our country? And so anyhow, so I just felt like even one in three was too many. One in four is too many.

• 4:10Ed Mylett?

  Right.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  One woman is too many. So I just felt like after 32 years, I felt like finally Denise, you know, you did a lot of wrong things. There's a lot of ways that you could have handled this differently with Nicole. You know, so I feel like, okay, finally I've matured enough. I've learned enough to finally write a book. To finally talk about domestic violence, yeah.

• 4:39Ed Mylett?

  I'm really glad you did. I'm surprised to hear that you did not think that she was subjected to domestic violence. Just because I, there's a story in the book about, and I'll let you tell it, and then tell me what your perspective was when you saw it. But there's this part of the book where like, you literally see him grab your sister by the throat and essentially lift her off the ground and put her up against a wall.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 5:00Ed Mylett?

  When you saw something like that, why don't you describe what it was and how it happened? And then why was it that even observing that you thought there was some, was it normalcy? Or you thought it was an isolated incident? Or domestic violence meant it was every day, not once in a while? What was the reasoning?

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Well, okay, the incident happened when we went to a restaurant. We, everything was fine. We were drinking our margaritas. It was a Mexican restaurant. And with tequila, fire water, okay? Then we go back to the house, Nicole's house. And all of a sudden, he's still making drinks. And we're still drinking and having a great time and talking. And he tells Nicole, he goes, go get some food. I said, what? We need any food? I said, we just got finished with a huge Mexican meal. He said, Nicole, go get some food. I said, oh, my God. Of course, I had had a few too many drinks already too. So I just said, God, you just totally take Nicole for granted.

• 6:00Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Well, that was the wrong thing to say because all of a sudden, he comes running from behind the bar. He, I thought he was going to grab me. I thought he was going to grab Nicole. I didn't know what was happening. He runs up the stairs. Pictures start flying into the foyer. Glasses breaking everywhere. He proceeds to run into their bedroom. All of a sudden, clothes start coming down. Hangers, shoes, boom, boom. And then he runs back down the stairs. He grabs Nicole. He throws her, he has her by the neck, about six inches off the ground. And I run over and I am banging on him. And alls I see is veins popping out and black eyes.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  And I'm just like, stop. Oh, you know, and I'm cussing at the storm and hitting him and doing all kinds of stuff. And then all of a sudden, he released her and he threw her outside. Nicole fell on her butt, bloodied elbows and just blood everywhere. And I was just like, I said, you're insane. You're nuts. But for me, it was an isolated incident. I had no idea that there was a cycle of domestic violence. We ended up taking Nicole to a hotel. But a cycle of domestic violence was something that I learned after I had said, after we had found her diaries, after I had said Nicole is not a battered woman.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  And I went to the shelter, my mother and I did. We took the diaries and her journals. And I said, I said, what does this mean? It was a shelter in Laguna Beach, Human Options. So I spoke with the executive director there, Vivian Kleecat. And I said, Vivian, I said, I don't understand this. So I thought it was an isolated incident until I learned that domestic violence is all about power and control. Domestic violence is about one human being needing to control another human being. The verbal, the emotional, the psychological abuse, the chipping away somebody's self-esteem. You're stupid, you're ugly, you're worthless. Nobody's going to want you, except me.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  That escalates into the physical violence, hitting, the kicking, the punching, throwing up against walls. And then there's the honeymoon phase of, oh, baby, I'm so sorry. It's never going to happen again. The gifts, the flowers and the excuses.

• 8:33Ed Mylett?

  Was OJ that way with you, with Nicole? Denise, was he apologetic and then would make up for things? And then it would just kind of reel her back in? Is that what you mean by part of the cycle? He would actually do that?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Well, what happened was, we're at the hotel the next morning. She says, oh, I'm going to go back and I'm going to go get some things. I need some clothes. I said, okay, I'm going with you.

• 8:54Ed Mylett?

  Sure.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  She goes, no, no, no. She goes, it's okay. She goes, he's not going to be there anyway. I said, Nick, I said, I feel better if I come with you. What am I going to do? I don't know, but I felt, I felt more comfortable going. And she said, she goes, no, she goes, don't worry about it. She goes, he'll be gone. I said, okay. So an hour passes, two hours pass, three hours. I finally get on the phone and I call her home phone because we didn't have cell phones at the time, right? So I'm on the phone and I said, Nick, I said, where are you? And she says, she goes, you know what? Everything is okay. He apologized.

• 9:32Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  And I said, I said, what do you mean, everything's okay? I said, everything is not okay. And that's when I said, oh, my God, you got to get out of there. What are you doing? She goes, Denise, honestly, she goes, everything is okay.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  And I said, okay. She knew what she was doing, I thought. I didn't know she was caught up in a cycle of domestic violence. That's why I am so adamant about speaking and talking about this. And I just want people to understand that, hey, it can happen to anybody. There are no socioeconomic boundaries. Doesn't matter if you're black or white, rich or poor, gay or lesbian, Democrat or Republican, or what religion you are. And I threw Democrat and Republican in after I went to Congress for the Violence Against Women Act. Because when I was there, all of a sudden, I am hearing, okay, I testify, everything is okay. We're talking about the Violence Against Women Act.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  We're talking about victims of domestic violence. What, you know, what this bill would do, you know, increase funding for shelters, for law enforcement, things like that. And then all of a sudden, something totally different was happening. And I said, well, what is this? I said, I think I'm in the wrong courtroom. I said, I don't believe that I'm supposed to be here right now. They said, oh, yeah, if you want to get anything passed bipartisan, which is the only way you can get anything passed in Congress.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  This, what they were talking about was putting a road someplace in the country. And I said, oh, my God, they are reducing women to pavement.

• 11:16Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  That was my education, my very first education about domestic violence and how Congress works.

• 11:22Ed Mylett?

  That's crazy. When you, let me ask you, but another part of the education part, like, teach us about a little bit of interaction with your sister and then how this plays out. Did she ever, and, and, and when I ask you this, I'd like you to answer why it's not talked about enough. So one of the things in prepping for this, I was surprised to read how under-reported it is and how prevalent it is that the abused is not telling their girlfriend, hey, he hits me. Hey, he choked me. Hey, he's verbally this or that. Did your sister confide in you that this was happening regularly? And if not, why is she like the majority? What is it that causes someone not to speak up for themselves? Is their self-esteem so reduced through this cycle that they don't speak up?

• 12:07Ed Mylett?

  Are they embarrassed? Do they, is there some thing where they think somehow it's their fault? Which is insane, but it could be part of their thinking. What is that? And what did she say to you?

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Well, she never told me about any of the abuse. Okay.

• 12:21Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  I saw it. I took pictures of her.

• 12:25Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  I did, at a different point in time. So that was like years later. It never happened every single day. I was living in Laguna. She was living in Los Angeles. What happened behind closed doors, I don't know. But I asked Ron Hardy, a good friend of Nicole's, and he did the documentary with us. And I asked Ron, I said, Ron, I said, did Nicole ever say anything to you? And he said, no. And I said, well, what do you think it is? And he, he explained it. He says, because I think she was, she didn't want to tell her family and her friends because she did not want to put them into any danger.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  And I thought, wow. I said, you know what? That makes total sense because everything that I've learned, looking back in hindsight, is that they will threaten the children. To take them away if you leave me. They will threaten family members because they need to be in control. They will threaten and kill pets. It's happened before. I've heard many stories about that. And a lot of times, the women and children, or the women that I've spoken to over the years in shelters, what they have told me is they are always hoping that things are going to get better. And they're always hoping that things will go back to when it was a great relationship.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  So there's always that hope.

• 13:57Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  And then there's that shame. The shame of not wanting anyone to know, not your best friend, not a family member. And then the fear. The fear of what am I going to do and where am I going to go? And you have to remember, he was put up on a pedestal.

• 14:15Ed Mylett?

  Right.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  The guy was loved by everyone in this country practically. Except the ones that actually really knew him.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  You know, even the ones that knew him loved him, put him up on a pedestal. He was the first black man to go into a white country club.

• 14:33Ed Mylett?

  Right. And he had all these endorsement deals. He had, he had sort of, at that time, it was not normal. He had sort of quote unquote crossed over and was able to be marketable to all different communities. This episode is sponsored by Ro. A lot of people assume GLP-1's cost a fortune and that assumption keeps them from even looking into treatment. But the reality is GLP-1 medications may be more affordable and accessible than people realize. Ro helps people find a more affordable path to FDA-approved GLP-1 treatment, whether that's through insurance coverage or cash pay options. Ro wants to help people lose weight. That's why they have more affordable GLP-1 options, whether you're paying with insurance or cash. Ro's free insurance checker makes it easy to see if you're covered for GLP-1 injections.

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• 16:46Ed Mylett?

  I want to ask you, I'm going to ask you this question because I think sometimes someone who, someone may be listening to this or watching and they're in this spot right now.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:55Ed Mylett?

  And they haven't come forward. And sometimes your self-esteem is so hurt through a process like this where someone is literally verbally or physically or both beating you down.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:05Ed Mylett?

  But you might not come forward for yourself. And so I'm going to try a different tactic almost to convince somebody to come forward. And it's this question. How has this impacted you in your life? Because I'm thinking, I want this person who's going through this to know, you're not coming forward actually can even have an impact on your family, on a sibling. In addition to the pain you're going through, you've had to live with this now for 32 years, right? And carried this with you. It's obviously altered the direction of your life significantly as well. I'm just curious, how has it changed your life? I mean, it must have shifted it tremendously.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Oh, it completely changed my life. The day that Nicole was murdered was the day that I, well, first of all, I lost my best friend. I lost my sister in such a horrific way. I told her just the night before when we left, I love you and I'll see you in the, on the weekend. You know, we're a European family. I mean, we had European upbringing. My mother's German. And so we would always tell each other we love each other. I mean, it was always, I love you when we're on the phone. And, you know, whenever we would see each other, it would always be hugs or kisses, you know? So we were very close in that way.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  But for me, I lost, okay, we didn't speak English. We were both born in Germany. That was our little secret language. Yeah. No, we were both born in Germany, didn't speak any English. My father spoke, he was the American in the family and he spoke German. And so, you know, that was our, that was our first language. Until we went to the States, I was six, Nicole was just turning five when we went. And, you know, I mean, we went to school. My mom said, you guys learned English in three weeks. But German was still our first language. So we were able to talk behind people's back in German.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  I mean, we had, we had this, oh, my God, you know, because we, of course, we were teenagers too. Talking about boys, talking about whatever we wanted to talk about. And we would do that in German.

• 19:20Ed Mylett?

  That's crazy.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  So that nobody could understand it, you know, they couldn't understand us.

• 19:24Ed Mylett?

  That's beautiful.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  We would have fun and we had such a great time when we grew up. And our parents never yelled or screamed at each other. We grew up in a very loving, and, you know, it was just a beautiful, beautiful family.

• 19:40Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, I was telling you off camera, I just want to say, just to acknowledge something. Obviously, I, I had a, early on in my business career, everybody, my, the guy that I shared an office with was actually dating Denise's sister.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Tanya.

• 19:54Ed Mylett?

  Tanya. And so I actually, during the trial and before it, was around the family a little bit. And they are such a wonderful, your parents are just such wonderful, beautiful people, so kind. And you come from just a great people. And I think, I think knowing how sweet and kind they were, if it could be any worse, made it even worse. And I'm curious, this is a hard question and I hope you don't mind me asking you the hard stuff because I want family members or friends that think they have a sister or a friend going through this or the person going through this to really hear this conversation. But if you could go back, this is such a hard thing to ask. Knowing what you know now, what would you have said to Nicole about this dynamic?

• 20:36Ed Mylett?

  Because to me, she did everything right. She was away from him by that time, right? She, she had cut ties as far as I know with him.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Two years they were divorced.

• 20:46Ed Mylett?

  Two years. And so was there really, so, so, so she did eventually do the right things, I guess, is the point, right?

• 20:53Speaker 02

  She did all the right things. Okay. This is the hardest thing for me to say because for me, I truly believe, because people put him up on a pedestal so high that I truly believe that Nicole would, Nicole was put on this earth.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  And I believe that she became the face of domestic violence and that was her destiny.

• 21:23Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  And that for me is so hard to even say these words because she couldn't get out. She was so trapped in that relationship because nobody helped her, because nobody was there for her. Because even the people that told, okay, the guy that wrote the book,

• 21:51Speaker 02

  the guy that wrote the book, The Forgotten Briefcase, Joseph. He talks about Nicole, he talks about how Bruce Jenner, Caitlyn Jenner, told her, told him, get away from her because he is so awful. Be careful. And Joseph, I remember him saying on an interview, this could have been me.

• 22:15Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  And I'm like sitting there going, she was so trapped. So I don't know if anything, because Nicole just wanted a relationship. She just wanted a good relationship. She loved love. Nicole, I mean, once she had her children, yes, she focused on her kids, she focused on her family. She wanted that white picket fence so badly. And then when things got bad, she had no way out.

• 22:48Ed Mylett?

  Bless her. By the way, I just want to acknowledge you.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  She could not get out.

• 22:51Ed Mylett?

  You're honoring her beautifully. I'm just watching you because I watched you all those years. I know. And it's really, I appreciate you being so open and vulnerable too, because I really believe that's what's going to help so many people today. I feel like there's a part of me for you that I, I'm so captivated by the story and the fact that you're honoring your sister this way. There's also this part of me as I watch you, like you've carried this every day of your life. Like this doesn't go away for the family members ever.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:20Ed Mylett?

  And I watch, I watch that even on your face now, all these years later. And it's so wonderful the way that you're honoring her. Did you know, when you found out that this had happened, did you instantly, I know the answer to this, but I want the audience to know. Because it's an interesting dynamic. I've heard, I hear you say, you sort of don't name him sometimes, right? But did you know instantly, did, can you tell everyone why that is? And did you, although at the same time, instantly know who did do this?

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Well, I just remember it was six fifteen in the morning, six o'clock, six fifteen in the morning. And I was getting breakfast and all of a sudden I hear this gut-wrenching scream coming from my parents' bedroom.

• 24:07Ed Mylett?

  Oh my gosh.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  And I'm like, oh my God, I ran back there so fast. And I see my mother up on her knees on the phone. And I'm like, what is going on? And she says, your sister is dead. I said, what? I, I was, I grabbed the phone out of my mom's hand and I said, who is this? And he says Detective Tom Lang. And he said, your sister's been killed. And I said, oh my God, he finally did it. He finally killed her. And he said, who? And I said, OJ Simpson.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  And I knew in my gut, in my heart, in my soul, that he killed Nicole. Because everything started flashing back to him having his hands around her neck, him throwing her out of the house. Me taking pictures of Nicole, of her scratched and bruises under her arm. Me seeing a photo of the young Nicole with a black eye. And her making the excuse of the makeup artist painted a black eye on me. Isn't it, doesn't it look real? Isn't that great? When he was shooting a movie. So all of these things flashed into my head in a split second.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  And I just said, oh my God, he did it. He did it. He killed her. And at the beginning, we thought it was, we thought it was with a, with a gun. You know, and I, I hung up the phone. I ran back and I grabbed my son because the night before, like I said, we were together. Sydney and Justin wanted to come down to Laguna. And my son and my sister Dominique's son, they still had school, another week of school. And I told them and I said, you know what? I said, why don't we let these guys finish school? And then you come down on the weekend. So Nicole and the kids said, oh, okay.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Otherwise Nicole would have been there all by herself. And she was all by herself. The kids were upstairs in their rooms. Were they sleeping? I don't know. Did they hear anything? I don't know. I don't know what they heard. I don't know what happened.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  But I know that she ended up in a fetal position.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Blood everywhere. And you saw it on the news the next day, the next morning. And I'm like, oh my God, this can't be happening. And you know, it's like, oh, all right.

• 27:02Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  You sit there and you think, God, why don't people just listen? Why does domestic violence have to continue? Because you know what? The ultimate form of domestic violence is murder.

• 27:17Ed Mylett?

  Right.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Get out before it even starts.

• 27:21Ed Mylett?

  There you go.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  If somebody tells you, that's why warning signs are so important.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Why are you wearing a short skirt? Why are you wearing that color lipstick? What? You don't want to spend time with me? I thought you loved me. You know, all these things just came rushing back. And I just sit there and I just go, oh my God. Just breaks my heart to think that any family has to go through what we went through. I don't want to have anybody. And you know, after the verdict came out, I got a phone call from a shelter in Texas. They had sixty women and children at their shelter. And they called me up and they said, oh my God, with this verdict of not guilty.

• 28:11Ed Mylett?

  Oh gosh, yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  They, all but four families started packing up their bags. And they said, if he can get away with it, so can our abuser. Can you imagine?

• 28:22Ed Mylett?

  No, no.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  I mean, it was just the most horrific thing I'd ever heard. And then I continued speaking and I continued talking. And I remember an executive director in Tennessee, she said, Denise, she goes, thank you for continuing because you know what? If you wouldn't have, a lot more people would lose their lives. And I don't know what would have ever happened with the Violence Against Women Act, if it had ever passed. Bill Clinton signed it into law after Nicole's murder. I went and testified and we got it from eighteen million to thirty-two million dollars. And I wasn't the only one that testified. There were other family members as well. Got to give them credit.

• 29:08Ed Mylett?

  You've done tireless work on this Denise. I mean, I don't know. Every time I've said this to you, you, you don't, you're, you're uncomfortable with compliments. But it's incredible what you've done for your sister. So you know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing like on repeat all the time? That sweater that kind of just goes with everything or these perfect pair of pants? That's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples with premium materials, like a hundred percent Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton. The styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for every day. It's what I'm wearing right now. Got that tee on, I got those pants on. They give you the softness and quality you'd expect from a luxury brand without the price tag. Quince also makes premium pants, fitted tees and polos, and breathable activewear.

• 29:52Ed Mylett?

  Quality basics designed to work with your wardrobe and hold up to everyday wear. I love their cotton tees. I'm wearing one now. And I get a ton of compliments when I wear them on the podcast and when I speak. So find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/ed for free shipping on your order and three sixty-five day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash ed. One of the things that I kind of think sometimes, because you mentioned this, it starts with different things. I wonder, I'd like you to speak to this just for a second too.

• 30:29Ed Mylett?

  I wonder if maybe someone's listening to this and, and even though they are being abused, ironically may not think they are because of comparison. What I mean by that is they go, well, hang on a minute. You know, I never ended up with a black eye. I don't have a broken rib. You know, it's just this. And so by comparison, it doesn't seem as bad, not knowing this progresses and escalates. And do you feel like that can be the case as well? That someone thinks, you know, you hear the worst of scenarios, which is what happened to your sister all the way to death. And yet, maybe they think, ah, well, my situation's not really that. So I'm not in that category.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  So it's not really that bad?

• 31:12Ed Mylett?

  Right.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  And that's what I hear a lot. You know, he verbally abused me, he mentally abused me, but he never hit me. Now, there's a story in the book that also talks about a woman who said her last straw was when he, when her abuse hit her child.

• 31:34Ed Mylett?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  That's when she left. But she had been with him for years with the verbal, emotional, her being beat. But once it affected her child, that's when she just said, that's it, I'm done.

• 31:50Ed Mylett?

  Denise, do you think that, would your advice be to a woman or a man listening to this? Because I read the stats that you guys sent us. Well, it happens to men too, but it predominantly, much more frequently happens to women. But would you, would your advice be if you had, if you, if you have a girlfriend right now, one time, you're out. In other words, if he puts his hands on you once, leave, period, end of story, no second chance, no excuses, no nothing. Would it be that, would that be your advice to somebody?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Well, okay, there was a young man that, and I was at Brooklyn College speaking. He asked me the same question. He said, what do I do? I know my sister's in an abusive relationship. I said, you know what? I said, learn everything you can about domestic violence. Learn about the cycle of domestic violence. Because then what you can do is you can set your sister down, and you can say, this is what I've learned, this is what I know. And you're talking from knowledge. Okay? You're not just saying, oh, you gotta get out of that relationship, like I did. You gotta leave that son of a bitch, you know? You gotta get out of this relationship. It's not, it's not good, you know? It's not healthy, it's not good. How can you stand being with this

• 33:06Speaker 02

  guy? You know, I said all the, I said all the wrong things. So educating this young man and telling him to get educated, to learn about the cycle of domestic violence, and then setting her sister, his sister down. And I told him, I said, you're gonna get a lot of denial, lot of denial. No, no, no, that's not happening to me. But what you've done is you've opened up that door to conversation. Because it usually takes seven to 10 times for a victim of domestic violence to leave the situation. Okay? Now, my advice, what I know today, and what is happening

• 33:45Speaker 02

  in our communities of now, one in two fall victim to domestic violence, I would say, learn about the warning signs. Learn about, you know, the, the control aspect of domestic violence. Educate yourself. Because then you will know the right things to say. You won't say the wrong things. So for me, yes, if he puts his hands on you, absolutely, you gotta, you gotta leave, because it will escalate to further. It will become more frequent. It will continue happening. Even though he says, I'm sorry, it'll never happen again. Don't believe it. Because it will happen again.

• 34:28Ed Mylett?

  I want to make, I want to make sure I say one thing too. I'm not suggesting that you have to wait for the one time either. What I'm just saying is, because, because by the way, you've eloquently explained the verbal part, the isolation part, the putting you down, the trying to control you. So I'm not, let me be very clear, everybody, you don't have to wait for that moment. What I'm saying is, that is a definitive deal breaker. When something like that happens, that's a clear sign, because it does escalate. And by the way, the stats that you sent us, it ends up that almost three quarters of these situations end up at some point in some sort of life-threatening strangulation situation at one point in the relationship. So that's how much this stuff can actually progress. Can I ask you something

• 35:10Ed Mylett?

  about the incident? Because I, I wanted to make sure the majority of the conversations stuck to the topic in the book. But also, your sister losing her life is obviously a part of the book. And I just want to ask you your opinion, because you said earlier, you don't know what happened. Yet you did know that he was the one who did it. But I had it.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  In my gut.

• 35:29Ed Mylett?

  In your gut, in your gut.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  In my soul, in my heart.

• 35:32Ed Mylett?

  Right. And then all the evidence proved that to be true. Let's just be real. So, but I had somebody on recently, that I've never had any, I try to not have any, what I'd call like wingnut stuff. You know what I mean? Like just out there stuff. And I don't do a lot of

• 35:48Ed Mylett?

  topics that are sort of way out there. This topic is fascinating to me and important to me, because I was around your family during that time, and they were such lovely, beautiful people. And I have three sisters, and I have a daughter. And, and so I, I, I want this message out there. But I wanted, if you'd indulge me on one question. I did have somebody on who did a lot of research. And I'm just curious of your opinion. Maybe you say definitely not, or I don't know. He had a theory that OJ also had a severe drug problem. And that potentially, there were some bad dudes in his life, and that potentially, he might have had some help that night with destroying these two precious lives. Do you have any theory, do you have any, are you open to the idea that that could have been the case? Or do you believe it was

• 36:33Ed Mylett?

  just him standing there with Ron and your sister?

• 36:37Speaker 02

  Well, I believe that it was him. Absolutely. Do I believe that there was somebody else there? If you would have seen him when he had Nicole by the throat, and seen his rage and anger, you would sit there and go, no, he's capable of doing both. He knocks Nicole out, then he goes after Ron. He does not need anybody else. That is what I believe.

• 37:07Ed Mylett?

  Okay, great. I just wanted to ask you.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Well, I know, I know what you're talking about, because there's all kinds of conspiracies out there with this new, new movie on Netflix, with another one coming out, again, I think at the end of the year. I mean, there's like all these conspiracies now. You know, with our documentary, I just want to clarify one thing.

• 37:29Ed Mylett?

  Sure.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  With our documentary, people always said, oh, why would you do it now when he's dead? And I just, I sit there and I have to look at them and I say, because making a documentary does not happen overnight. Making a documentary, ours took a year and a half to make. Okay? You were still alive. My book, I had been working, and this is the real one, not the one that you have.

• 37:58Ed Mylett?

  Or my sister Nicole. I at least have the cover in front of me, everybody, if you're listening to audio, right?

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so anyway, so love what they did. But for, for the, for the documentary, for the book, it takes time. This was in the works for three years. It has morphed into a domestic violence book. It was more of a memoir when I first started out. And then, you know, as I, we continued writing with Julie McCarron, who's the writer that helped me, because I'm not a writer. But she was wonderful, because we had changed directions. And when it became

• 38:41Speaker 02

  a domestic violence book, I thought, you know, this, I am hoping, is going to give people that hope, give people the, you know, the, the wherewithal, the resources of getting the help that they need, of educating yourself. And so anyway, so I'm really glad that it turned into a domestic violence.

• 39:05Ed Mylett?

  So am I. And also, the point you made earlier is really profound, because I think sometimes, and then I'm gonna ask you a question about criticism, because it's unbelievable to me, that, what you've dealt with in your life. But, you know, I, I, you know, the point you made earlier about maybe not going in so direct of, you need to get out of here, he's doing this to you. But actually, having them educated is such a profound approach, and it sounds right to me, because you're not creating resistance, or you're not isolating that person, or making them defend the person. You can almost make a martyr or hero out of the abuser, if you go the way that sometimes people go, which is just super aggressive. I wanted to ask you, though, about, one of the things that I just could not get over while

• 39:45Ed Mylett?

  this was happening. So, it's pretty simple in life. Sometimes, there's a perpetrator, and then there's a victim. And that's it. And that's what it is. Your sister was the victim, so was Ron, and so were your families. And I remember particularly you, if I can be candid, you received unbelievable scrutiny, criticism, even some mocking over the years. And it's just amazing to me, because there's a lot of people listening to this, they're going through something in their life, maybe they want to make a dream come true, maybe they want to go something, go through something. And the truth is, one of the big reasons they don't do it, they're afraid to be criticized. They're afraid to stick their neck out there. They're afraid to speak up and stand for something, whether that be a cause, or a principle, or

• 40:30Ed Mylett?

  speak their mind, or what you're doing for your sister, or what you did during the trial. And you were constantly being judged for how you responded to your sister being murdered. So if, I just look at it like, if you can be judged, then anybody can be judged, because our culture's so just crazy on, how have you dealt with that? It must have shocked you the first time that you were the one being criticized, but how you responded?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Okay, for me, okay, years ago, when I was 18 years old, I was a model. Okay? And when you take pictures, the agent or whoever is like looking at him going, oh my God, you got a crooked smile there, that's no good. Oh my God, your ear's sticking out there. Oh my God, this. Oh, you know, they're very picky and very whatever. My mother, she told me, she says Denise, do not take those things personally. Because they want a particular look. Okay, so her having said that was actually the best thing that could have happened to me.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Because I remember, I don't know if it was the LA Times or what it was, I had an inch of gray hair. And I remember them going after me because I had an inch of gray hair. Well, hello people, today I'm all gray, so let it go. I don't care. But I think it was my mother who said, you're not gonna please everybody. You're not gonna be liked by everybody. So you have to believe in what you're doing at all times. And her being a very spiritual woman and just a very loving mother. And I knew that whatever she said, she didn't mean it hurtfully. She didn't mean it mean.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  But I took that advice and I was able to actually deal with all the people that said really nasty things about me.

• 42:31Ed Mylett?

  Good for you.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Crying up on the stand.

• 42:34Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Lying up on the stand. You know, like all of these things. And my response to that is, I don't wish my worst enemy to have to go through a loss. So horrific, like we had to, and so public. You know, even our local stores, they were wonderful. They took all the tabloid magazines and turned them around. So that the kids, so we could take the kids shopping. So we, as their, as her family, would not have to see all the ugly stuff that was written about her. We had a great community down in Laguna.

• 43:13Ed Mylett?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  We could go to Target, they say, call us before you come, we'll get rid of all the magazines. Our Gelson's, our Pavilions, our, everybody was so nice. So good. As the time went on, you know, I mean helicopters would fly over the beach. Now, my sister Dominique, what she would do is she would make a game out of it, because she had the four kids. Sydney, Justin, Sean, my son and her son Aaron. And she said, they took towels, put them over their head and pretend they were superheroes, running from God knows what. Because there was a helicopter flying over. Well, neighbors didn't care for that too much. You know, I mean, it was their summer too.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, it was really disruptive. People could be nasty. People had, we had signs on the front of our community, OJ for president. I mean, really fucked up stuff, excuse my language.

• 44:13Ed Mylett?

  No, I like it, you're tough Denise.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  It was.

• 44:15Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, you're tough.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  It was so awful.

• 44:17Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, no, I love that, we're leaving that in by the way, you guys. I wanna leave that in. No, the whole, I've always from a distance, when I opened the show and I said, I really wanted to talk to this woman, it was because of your strength. And I'm not saying that to placate you or be nice or you're on the show, you're strong. I watched you, you were strong, you were really the front person for the family. You have been most of the time, that's not to take away from anybody else in your family. They're all done their part, but you really are the person who's taken most of the arrows. You're the one, you're the one who stood up and I just want, I just think everybody listening to this is just like, this is what courage looks like. This is what toughness looks like, this is what loving your sister looks like, it's a big deal. And it's like, it's why, you know, frankly, everybody, she was supposed to be with us here today and she's actually very sick today and she's still doing the show. Not feeling really well and I'm grateful for that.

• 45:03Ed Mylett?

  I wanna give a couple more gifts of your content though. There's something in there and if you don't, if you can't pull it out, that's okay, but there's this thing about, for a woman who is not, that's a victim, but they're not leaving the relationship, it's like the trust format. Can you explain that?

• 45:19Speaker 02

  I have it right here.

• 45:20Ed Mylett?

  Okay, can you explain that, I think it's really important that we don't leave the interview without that being in here.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  I love this. And trust, the acronym. The T stands for take the time to listen. R, respect the victim's values and choices. U, understand how difficult it is to offer and offer compassion and hope. S, support the victim's decisions. T, tell the victim help is available from you and others.

• 45:57Ed Mylett?

  Very good.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  And this is, this I think is so important and that goes back to education. Education, awareness of what's going on around you. And for me, I just don't wanna have another Nicole. I don't wanna see another Nicole. I know that the shelters are full. I do know, and this is really, really sad, that shelters are closing their doors because they are not getting the funding that they need from our government. Now, tell me that, for me, that is such a horrific, horrific thing. Because where are these women gonna go?

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Where are they gonna take their children, back to their abusers? What, so they can eventually be murdered? I mean, come on people, shelters are there to protect, to help. They are there for a victim's, God, bring the sanity back to humanity, people.

• 47:02Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, that's not a left or a right, that's not a left or a right issue.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  It's not, it's helping, it's helping humanity.

• 47:10Ed Mylett?

  Of course.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  It's being there for individuals.

• 47:13Ed Mylett?

  Helping the most vulnerable, it's helping the most vulnerable.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 47:17Ed Mylett?

  I'm wondering, by the way, I'm loving this, just so you know, and I'm really enjoying the conversation.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  We can keep talking as long as I have a voice.

• 47:24Ed Mylett?

  I appreciate that. I, um, this is, I bet you're not gonna get asked this one, but I'm, this is personal, like super personal and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to. But I think about this when I, this is just like one of the weird thoughts I had as somebody watching your family go through this. And I'm wondering, having a sister whose life was taken so suddenly and violently and cruel, like in a cruel,

• 47:54Ed Mylett?

  just horrendous fashion, did it affect your faith beliefs? And I don't, I don't want you to be personal about your faith, but I wonder like, what do you believe? Will you see Nicole again someday? Do you ever think about that? And how did it affect you in terms of, because I think it might not be that difficult for somebody to go, God, how would you let this happen to our family and my beautiful sister? And be angry or doubt? I'm wondering how it affected that.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  It happened to me. And my mother, she looked at me and she said, Denise, you are so angry. She brought a pastor to the house. Okay, we're Catholic and I'm okay with that. You know, that's just the way I was raised, but more spiritual than anything. My mother, she came to me, she said Denise, you're so angry. So the pastor was there, we're sitting in the living room and she just looked at me and she goes, I am looking at you and I just see so much rage, so much anger. And then the pastor spoke. He said Denise, he goes, this is not, because I was very angry with God.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Very, because I thought, how could you let such a beautiful, wonderful, kind-hearted mother of two be murdered? I was so angry. So anyway, he told me, he said Denise, this is not God's doing. This is the evil of man.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  When he said that, it just lifted off my shoulders and I was like, oh my God.

• 49:32Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  And I wasn't angry at God anymore. I understood that and it happened so fast. But yeah, no, I was really, really, really angry. But after that, yeah, no, after that, I was okay. I was, I was okay with God again. I was okay with all of it. Not losing my sister, I was okay with.

• 49:57Ed Mylett?

  Sure.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  But that's when I feel like, okay, I got the strength that I needed

• 50:04Speaker 02

  to go after any guy that lays a hand on any woman. And I just had, I mean, I still had rage, I still had the anger, mostly rage probably.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  That a girlfriend of mine in New York, she said, after she heard about Nicole's murder, she said, she go to her husband, she says, oh my God, there's gonna be another murder.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Because I had been drinking, I'm an alcoholic also, so I stopped drinking six months before Nicole was murdered.

• 50:39Ed Mylett?

  Oh my gosh.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  And my whole thing, she said, she didn't know this, because I hadn't talked to her in six months. And she said, there's gonna be another murder.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  And when we finally spoke, I told her, I said, no, I said, I stopped drinking. And the sheriff's department came over and picked up my father's guns. Legal, by the way.

• 51:07Ed Mylett?

  Meaning she thought you were gonna go murder somebody?

• 51:09Speaker 02

  I was gonna.

• 51:10Ed Mylett?

  You were that angry? Okay, I get it now. Okay.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  There was so much rage.

• 51:14Ed Mylett?

  You sure?

• 51:15Speaker 02

  She said, oh, my God, she's gonna go and kill him.

• 51:20Ed Mylett?

  Wow.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  And yeah, so anyway, I thought that was, I was like, no.

• 51:26Ed Mylett?

  This is such a great conversation. Like, this is what I was hoping this was gonna be, that we would learn about you, learn about domestic violence, learn a little bit more insights about your sister and these dynamics. And I just want to tell you, I, I just think you're doing a tremendous job and always have of honoring your sister. And she's, she, I, I, I imagine she's unbelievably proud of you. And it's really a beautiful thing. Yeah, it really is.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  I really do hope so. And I'm never gonna stop that.

• 51:57Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, I know it. I know.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I can't talk anymore.

• 52:00Ed Mylett?

  Even today, she showed up for this, you guys. Let me ask you one last thing. I want to make sure that people have any final thought you have of something I didn't ask you, or any where, place, organization you want to promote, or anything like that, or, or a thought you might have for anybody listening to this who has family that might be going through something like this, or is personally going through this right now.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Well, oh, God, that, those are a lot of questions, Ed.

• 52:24Ed Mylett?

  Yeah, that's why I'm giving you the full run. You get time.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I think that get to know your local shelter in your community.

• 52:33Ed Mylett?

  Okay.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Educate yourself, go volunteer, go see what they're all about. They need help. They actually, they really need help. I work a lot with a shelter here in Naples, Florida. And I am on the Board of Trustees here with the Shelter for Abused Women and Children. I work with many shelters all across the country. The shelter that educated me was Human Options in Laguna Beach. And they were, they're a wonderful organization. The Wings Organization in Chicago, fabulous. Laurel House in Pennsylvania. Fabulous organization. I got Ruth's House in, you know, Washington DC.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  I, I don't know, there's just so many that I can't even name them all. But there are a lot of resources in the book. A lot of organizations that I talk about. But I want one thing to be remembered when they're reading this book. This is looking back in hindsight. This is thinking and not knowing anything about domestic violence. This is thinking that these incidences that I'm talking about are isolated incidents. And not that I saw things happening every single day. I didn't. And knowing that you can be caught up in a cycle of violence. And when someone is a narcissist

• 54:03Speaker 02

  and wants control of everything that you do. And see, when I first got into this, after Nicole's murder, I was looking at the cycle of violence, everything that Nicole was not. Nicole was not financially abused. Nicole was not isolated from her family.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  I truly believe that there could have been threats to our family. That's why she was never isolated from us. Because he knew what a tight-knit family we were. So I just want people to understand when they're reading it, that these things were looking back in hindsight and not knowing anything. So educate yourself, learn about domestic violence, learn about the warning signs. Educate yourself and others.

• 54:56Ed Mylett?

  By the way, I think the fastest way to do that, and the best way to do it, I'm not saying this just to move books. I actually really believe if you go get For My Sister Nicole by Denise Brown, that's one of the best first steps that you could make. And even potentially giving this book to somebody so they could educate themselves that might be going through this situation too, because you know, all the things that I've read from the book, they're heart wrenching, but they're very educational, they're very enlightening. What you just said there at the end, don't be looking for what it's not, you know, because not all of these things have to check every box to constitute an abusive situation. So Denise, this was awesome. You, you crushed it today.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Thank you. Well, I really appreciate it. I mean, it's, I just, I just want people to not go through something that we went through. I mean, we gotta stop this, especially now that statistics are one and two.

• 55:46Ed Mylett?

  Gosh, it's crazy.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  In some areas of our country. Shouldn't we be a little bit more educated? Shouldn't we care for humanity a little bit more?

• 55:56Ed Mylett?

  Yes, we should. Yes. That's why I'm so glad we did this today. I mean, really, everybody, I, give Denise some love, you guys, by, you know, social, but also by getting the book. And I think you're honoring all people that are going through some sort of domestic violence or abuse by reading the book. I think you're honoring everybody by doing it, and you all grow and learn more by reading it. It's, it's not lightweight, it's heavy. There's great stuff in there. So Denise, thank you so much for today. I enjoyed it. It exceeded my expectations.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Well, I really appreciate you. Thank you.

• 56:29Ed Mylett?

  Thank you. All right, everybody. God bless you. And by the way, share this episode. If there's one that needs to be shared, it's today's, everybody. All right. God bless you all. Max out your life.