389. How to experience healthy love after toxic love

After toxic love, healthy love can feel surprisingly hard to recognise because you’ve likely learned to expect chaos, inconsistency, and emotional whiplash. In this episode, we unpack what toxic love actually looks like, how it shapes your beliefs about love in your 20s, and why calm, consistent connection can feel suspicious or even ‘boring’ when you’re used to intensity. We explore: • What toxic love is and how it intersects with abusive • How this reshapes trust, pessimism, and your expectations of people • The role of neurochemistry, addiction, and intermittent reinforcement in toxic bonds • Self-sabotage and self-esteem • The role of attachment patterns over time • What healthy love and conflict actually feel like • Practical ways to lean into safe love If you’re conflicted between craving consistency or chaos, this episode is for you. Watch on Netflix http://netflix.com/thepsychologyofyour20s Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Jemma Sbeg?

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• 1:12Jemma Sbeg?

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• 1:53Jemma Sbeg?

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• 2:34Speaker 02

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• 3:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

• 3:28Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our twenties. Today, we are talking about a pain, I think, a lot of us carry around in our twenties, but really at any age. At any age, you can have this deep sadness and frustration around, how do I love again when I've been hurt so badly in the past? How do I love again when I have learnt that love is not something that I can trust? And just saying that, there's so much hurt in those statements. There's so much pain and trauma in those statements. Especially when the love you've experienced in the past has been toxic.

• 4:12Jemma Sbeg?

  I think this goes beyond heartbreak. It goes beyond somebody, you know, you and somebody else just not working out. There is this reprogramming that occurs when you experience toxic love. It changes how you interpret every single detail, every single thing somebody does. It it changes how you respond to closeness or even how safe you feel with somebody. When they're kind to you and when they do everything right and when they are the one, it can just train your body to even after a relationship is over, associate love with panic and love with hostility. So that when maybe one day you meet somebody who is very calm and lovely.

• 4:53Jemma Sbeg?

  Instead of feeling bliss and instead of feeling safe, you just feel suspicious. And you just feel restless, like you're waiting, you're waiting for the catch. You're waiting for something to go horribly wrong. I've been there myself in my relationship before I met Tom. You know, it really did something to me. It it sometimes it felt like love was just something that could be manipulated and taken advantage of. That's what that relationship left me feeling. And when I met Tom, those past experiences really caused me to be really suspicious, very suspicious. So I kind of wanted to, I don't know, reflect on my own experience in a way.

• 5:37Jemma Sbeg?

  And bring that to this episode on experiencing healthy love after toxic love. What we're going to explore is what toxic love does to your nervous system. What it does to your self-esteem, to your biological wiring, to your attachment patterns. And then as well, how we can slowly, practically relearn how to feel safe and how to feel excited by the potential of a relationship. So without further ado, it's going to be a big episode. Strap in, let's get into it.

• 6:17Jemma Sbeg?

  So the first big question of the day, what does toxic love actually look like? Um, there is no Oxford Dictionary definition for this. I'm sure you guys probably don't even need me to describe it. You know it, you felt it. But it basically just represents a relational or a relationship dynamic that is consistently and insidiously harmful to your wellbeing. It's not necessarily about one person being evil or about the occasional argument. It is often about a pattern of things like chronic invalidation, emotional inconsistency,

• 6:57Jemma Sbeg?

  jealousy, uh, contempt, nastiness, um, betrayal that makes you feel very small. And that that's just a part of you that can, that feels even in those moments that this isn't how you're meant to be treated. In toxic relationships, there will likely be repeated cycles of rupture without repair or kind of emotional chaos that makes you feel destabilized and very insecure. It's never resolved. You just either stop thinking about it or you move on to the next thing. It's very intense. It's very time consuming, emotional, emotionally consuming.

• 7:38Jemma Sbeg?

  And it's very hard to leave, not because you're scared, um, although that can be a part of it. But sometimes just because you're really actually hooked on the highs and lows and kind of in a way you're addicted or you're hooked to this like potential. It's the hope that really kills you in these situations. It's the hope that keeps you hanging around, hope that it's going to get better, hope that it's going to transform into the thing you want it to be. You might be thinking, oh, a lot of, huh, a lot of that sounds like abuse, just with a less intense name. And that's a really valuable point. So let's quickly discuss the difference here. Abusive love or just straight up abuse, cut the love part, just abuse.

• 8:23Jemma Sbeg?

  It's fundamentally about power and about.

• 8:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Control. It's again a pattern where usually one person's autonomy gets eroded over time. Um, and the other person is the one who obviously does that erosion, but they monitor your phone, they isolate you from friends, they control your money, they make threats, uh, they coerce you into things, they intimidate you. Um, they emotionally punish you for any signs of independence. That's really what abuse looks like. And toxic love and abusive or just abuse can definitely overlap. Uh, but I think toxic love sits like a little, sits a little bit below. Some relationships are toxic but not abusive.

• 9:09Jemma Sbeg?

  It's just two people with poor boundaries, two people with poor conflict skills. Lots of insecurity, lots of reactivity, people who hurt each other but aren't necessarily engaging in a pattern of domination. And some relationships also worth acknowledging begin as toxic and then slide into abuse. Slide into fear and control and coercion. But I think a lot of us live in that messy middle. Relationships that are just tumultuous, where there's just two people whose needs and wants are different and one person is really putting themselves more in the middle. And one person is really calling more of the shots, not to dominate you.

• 9:54Jemma Sbeg?

  Maybe to dominate you, but more so just because there's a selfishness there and there's a lack of communication there and it's just messy. And there's not a clear definition of what exactly is going wrong, but you know that something is. I think what's difficult is that we look at those kinds of situations. And because they're not abusive, we don't wanna sound dramatic or make too big of a deal of them or the way that they've impacted us, but. They do still leave a mark and toxic love leaves psychological wounds, pretty deep ones. It can really significantly change how you see love, especially if it is in your twenties.

• 10:37Jemma Sbeg?

  It's not something to kind of be brushed aside. Your twenties are already very much dictated by high change. They are, they are a high learning stage of life. People often think that childhood is our most malleable time. It definitely is for some things, but your relationship blueprint, you know, continues to develop into adulthood. And especially in your twenties, it can be, it can be shifted rapidly when a relationship. I don't know how I can word this, but when it doesn't have a stable centre, when it doesn't have a stable core. It can throw you off your mark and scramble what you think love should be. Basically, I think when two stories are being told about love at the same time in the same relationship.

• 11:22Jemma Sbeg?

  One where you feel good and the second story where you feel terrible and they keep switching. And you keep thinking this is amazing and I feel safe and then I feel exhausted and I feel dismissed. And I feel like I'm not wanted and I feel terrible. They come into conflict and they clash and your brain only wants one story to be true. So it doesn't really know where to place what's going on and it doesn't really know.

• 11:49Jemma Sbeg?

  I guess how to adapt your expectations of love accordingly. There's just a lot going on that kind of scrambles our blueprint. The biggest impact of this is that it can lead us to normalized dysfunction. And almost emotionally justify or emotionally rebrand a tumultuous. Kind of relationship as exciting, simply as a way to endure it. Meaning that eventually, again, when we do encounter this healthy, safe love. And it doesn't contain those rapid ups and downs, it can feel really boring because it contradicts what we've come to expect. Sometimes, you know, after chaos, and I've seen this in so many people's relationships that I know.

• 12:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Stability feels really just dull. Not because healthy love is dull, but because you, you've learned to associate love with intensity. And with stimulation and excitement.

• 12:47Jemma Sbeg?

  These relationships include so many highs and so many lows. And that pattern is very similar to the pattern that most addictive substances rely on to get you hooked. This pattern of stress, intensity, and then euphoria and relief at consuming the substance or experiencing the stimulus and then it eventually plummets back, the relief is gone. You're scrambling for a higher dose. This is why toxic love and I think addiction sometimes go hand in hand. There is a real neurochemical level to it. It's exhausting, but it's also familiar.

• 13:27Jemma Sbeg?

  And more importantly, um, it can really interrupt and harm the part of your brain that deals with the interpretation of danger, that deals with fear, that deals with regulating heightened emotions. There's a concept in polyvagal theory called neuroception, which basically talks about how your body is constantly or unconsciously in a state where it can detect threats. So essentially, at any given time, there is always a part of you that's going to be able to sense danger. The thing is, is that when people feel safe, that reaction, those reactions are downregulated.

• 14:10Jemma Sbeg?

  So they're not taking up all your mental, physical, cognitive resources. Your body's able to stay mobilized, you're able to stay in the present, you're able to feel safe. After trauma, after something like a really intense relationship, especially one that felt very harmful, neuroception can become dysregulated. So you perceive danger and you perceive this intensity as the new normal. Even in safe situations, your body remains in that heightened state of alertness. And that becomes basically your new equilibrium. Your new equilibrium is one whereby everything feels like at any given moment, it could turn terribly wrong.

• 14:56Jemma Sbeg?

  And the research does show, again, just to nail this point home again, after experiencing relational trauma, people struggle because of neuroception and because of many other processes to read safety correctly. And often they will confuse safety with something else. A twenty twelve paper in the journal Neuropharmacology actually suggests that people with PTSD, for example, struggle to down-regulate or switch off fear and anxiety responses. And so because this low level of anxiety becomes the new normal, when safe situations come along,

• 15:36Jemma Sbeg?

  sometimes those can actually feel the most scary because they are so counter to what is familiar. Sometimes the healthy, safe relationship can feel the most bizarre and terrible and fearful because it's so different, it's so different from what you expect. You don't have to have experienced or have PTSD for this to be the case. My point is just that essentially when your brain has learnt that in the relation, in the relational context, closeness is dangerous. It becomes harder to feel safe even when you are safe because that doubt is your insurance.

• 16:16Jemma Sbeg?

  And the feeling of safety is not normal and therefore feels unsafe, uncanny. And so you interpret even the most harmless, wonderful situations as things that are threats. Someone predictable comes along, someone who doesn't play games, someone who is just really into you and you think this is fantastic. They give you all the reassurance you need, they give you everything you need. And then your nervous system cuts in. And because it's so used to scanning and bracing and suddenly there is nothing wrong, that feeling of peace is unfamiliar. And that feeling of peace can feel, I know I've said uncanny the most times, but can be anxiety inducing in its own way.

• 17:03Jemma Sbeg?

  So what that basically means is that after toxic love, you are approaching healthy love and the potential for healthy love with an entirely new perspective. And with an entirely new, I don't wanna say brain, but set of neurological and psychological habits that mean you can't and you feel like you cannot always trust your your judgment of the person in front of you or your judgment of the situation you're in. There's also the combined element here of perhaps the chronic invalidation and the instability you most likely experienced in your last relationship

• 17:46Jemma Sbeg?

  that has probably conditioned you to distrust your own perceptions and experiences in these kind of dating scenarios. There's this weird, I guess hindsight bias that occurs in these situations where we look at the past knowing how it's turned out and we wonder why our past selves couldn't have foreseen this and didn't know. Which is ridiculous because they hadn't lived it yet, but this hindsight bias causes us to begin to question whether our judgment is broken. And therefore, as a result, it causes us to mistrust anyone and everyone in a kind of better, safe than sorry, I guess, kind of way.

• 18:30Jemma Sbeg?

  It's honestly so twisted. It's so twisted that you have to experience this. And that this is kind of, this is what love feels like now. And I'm sorry, it's really, really sucky. I remember my boyfriend when we first started dating. I must have had some, I guess it must have been a work achievement. I can't remember. That's bad for me, but something really big had happened and he sent me this like big box of sunflowers to my office. And this was when I had an office with some of my friends, some of my best friends. And they were all gushing. They were like, this guy is amazing. This guy is so great for you. And I was like looking at these flowers and I just couldn't help but think, yeah, like what's this guy's angle?

• 19:15Jemma Sbeg?

  Like, what's this sicko up to? What's he buttering me up for? Like, look at this love bombing going on here. It was, it just, I feel like I was at that stage where I hadn't been with my ex for years and. In that moment, I had such a wave of anger towards him, like, you're gonna fuck this up as well. And you're not even here, like, you have created these reactions and these patterns now in me. And am I gonna sabotage this incredible thing? Because of you, like, because of the past? And there was definitely this distance between me and Tom in the, in the early days. And I'm so glad he could see that for what it was, which was not just interest, but, but caution. Um, and I know a lot of people have a, have a similar experience, this amazing person is in front of you and you're like,

• 20:01Jemma Sbeg?

  what's the catch? I guess what I'm saying is that after toxic love, really what it is, is that having hope feels irresponsible. Because you had hope before and look where it got you. And it's not a nice feeling being that pessimistic. Because you probably weren't that pessimistic before this last person. You probably really believed in love. And if you're going through that now, I know it can be very hard. It can be very hard to feel like either they're gaslighting you or you're gaslighting yourself, but I promise it does most certainly get better. The other thing, and probably the final thing I'll touch on here, the other thing

• 20:44Jemma Sbeg?

  toxic relationships can do to you is that they literally change your attachment style. Even if you're an adult, even if you're, you're in your twenties or you're in your thirties or your forties. I know a lot of us, um, try to categorize ourselves into three prescribed boxes. You're either anxious, you're avoidant, or you're, or you're secure. And we box ourselves into these based on how we learnt about relationships growing up. And we kind of assume, and we talk about our attachment style as though it's. Completely fixed and unchangeable after childhood.

• 21:25Jemma Sbeg?

  It's formed in childhood, it's impacted by childhood only. That's what the original theory by Bowlby and Ainsworth says. And then, once you're eighteen, you're locked in for life. If you're insecure, you're insecure for life. If you're secure, you're secure for life. And that's just the cards you're dealt. But your attachment style isn't fixed. It's actually influenced by relationship experiences across your life, across time. And a toxic experience can shift your system radically, almost overnight. You know what's also really interesting? There's actually, I read this paper recently, there's research showing that

• 22:09Jemma Sbeg?

  attachment security and your attachment style can actually fluctuate, not just day to day, but depending on the person that you're with. Essentially, your attachment style can be different just for one singular relationship. Which sounds preposterous, but you could be secure in all other relationships, in your friendships, in your previous relationships with your parents. But with this one single person, this toxic love, suddenly you have all these anxious traits, all these avoidant traits. You are terrified, just for them, nobody else.

• 22:51Jemma Sbeg?

  One study I cited, um, actually in my book, and I still cite it a lot, talks about how those early experiences of your attachment style being shifted by one singular relationship can take somebody who has had an overflowing amount of love in childhood, who is deeply cared for, and just completely twist them into someone who, I don't know, acts like the survivor of childhood trauma. Especially if this was their first relationship, or their first significant relationship. Parents aren't the only one, and aren't the only blueprint for how we think love should look. Young love, early love is also a milestone,

• 23:34Jemma Sbeg?

  and is also a core bonding and learning experience that can, I guess, twist your interpretation of.

• 23:42Jemma Sbeg?

  The behaviours that are normal in a relationship. And what a relationship should make you feel like. Should it make you feel safe and happy, or should it make you feel anxious and hostile? If you've noticed yourself becoming more anxious and more hyperventilant after being in a relationship that was chaotic or with somebody who was just like impossible to read. It's likely that, you know, this is what's happening to you. Your nervous system has been changed by that relationship. Your attachment system has been changed by that relationship. And your attachment system is doing what it has evolved to do. It is trying to teach you how to best bond with other people so that you don't get hurt.

• 24:27Jemma Sbeg?

  And in this situation, you were hurt. That doesn't mean that every situation is going to be like that. But this is why your brain learns to prevent things from the past happening again. And it makes generalisations. It makes you believe that every other love you're going to encounter in your life must look the same. But I think that if our attachment style and our nervous system and all these other bonding systems can change to become more alert and more anxious and more avoidant. It's only right and it only makes sense that they can also change in the other direction. And that when the right person comes along, or maybe not even the right person, just a really kind person comes along.

• 25:09Jemma Sbeg?

  That can shift us into being more secure and feeling safer as well. Relationships can also increase a sense of security over time. There is so much evidence out there that partners can actually co-regulate each other. That healthy love, if we push through maybe some of the feelings of boredom or feelings of fear and anxiety over the past. Healthy love can heal us in a very unique way. And I know there's definitely this like ongoing narrative that anything you don't heal before a relationship will harm that relationship. But I also think that.

• 25:52Jemma Sbeg?

  I don't know, I just don't always believe that. I think love is very healing and sometimes the wounds left by previous situations, sometimes the wounds left by love can be treated by nothing else, not to be like poetic about it, but you know, that is the thing that will, I don't want to say fast track your healing, but I think that it's something that can be very beneficial if you've gotten to the state of pessimism and hostility towards relationships. Uh, not to say get back out there and get back on the horse, but sometimes the thing that you're avoiding doing the most and the thing that you fear the most and the reason you fear relationships the most is the reason you should get back

• 26:36Jemma Sbeg?

  out there. So as not to maintain this avoidance and so as not to further indoctrinate this narrative in yourself that the only kind of love I'm going to experience is the unhealthy kind. And the only kind of people out there are the kinds that will hurt me or will hurt others. I'm telling you that is not the case. I'm telling you there are brilliant people yet to be discovered by you and many others. So what does that feel like? What does healthy love feel like? And how can we actually lean into that without like trying to fix ourselves with a relationship because that's definitely not what I'm saying? How can we just get some exposure to healthy love and know it when we see it? That's what we're going to be exploring after this short break.

• 27:27Speaker 03

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• 27:54Jemma Sbeg?

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• 28:32Jemma Sbeg?

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• 29:16Jemma Sbeg?

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• 30:01Jemma Sbeg?

  It is the only collagen that combines skin-supporting marine collagen with the sun and blue light protection of luton to make your skin feel and look Glowy and protected. Plus, I just really like that they have nature at the core of everything that they do. Try Nature's Sunshine and experience the difference with supplements that are better for you and the planet. Go to nature's sunshine.com today and use the code PSYCH for 20% off your first order plus free shipping. That's code PSYCH for 20% off your first order at nature's sunshine dot com. You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what

• 30:41Jemma Sbeg?

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• 31:24Jemma Sbeg?

  that Moisture Surge is a great lightweight base. If you like something under your makeup, it makes your skin look so plump and soft, especially first thing in the morning when it's maybe not looking that way. Basically, I think it feels exactly like how you want a moisturizer to feel. Fresh, lightweight, and deeply hydrating. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge. Once you understand what toxic love has trained in you, I think the next question or reminder, I guess, is what does healthy love actually feel like? And how do we practice recognizing it and staying in it long enough for our body to believe

• 32:09Jemma Sbeg?

  it and to believe that we are safe? I know you guys hopefully know a lot of this, so not to sound, don't want to sound patronizing, you don't want to sound patronizing or anything like that. But just because we have to, let's do a mini checklist of sorts around what is healthy love? Like a checklist that you could sit in front of somebody and be like, is that what we've got going on for us here? First up, healthy love is not built on guessing. If you ever, ever have to guess, does this person wanna be with me? Does this person see us going in the same direction? Why haven't they labelled it? Why don't they like me back, text me back? Why won't they include me in their plans?

• 32:54Jemma Sbeg?

  And you don't feel like you can clarify? That's not healthy love. You guys aren't in a relationship. Like, you do not have the essential ingredient. Yes, people take their time in relationships and people move at different speeds. But that position should be communicated. And so should their reasons. It's literally the most cliche thing you will see in every marriage book, every relationship book. Communication is key. It's not that they won't commit right now. It's not that they don't know where you guys are going. It's that they're willing to talk to you about it. There is no confusion. The other thing healthy love, or the beginnings of healthy love will often show you as well, is that

• 33:38Jemma Sbeg?

  this communication we're talking about doesn't always have to end in an argument or something that's emotionally twisted or uncomfortable. I think that does actually become especially clear during these kinds of early on, what are we, what are we doing here, what do you want from me kind of conversations. When you have these conversations, um, I think a lot of the time, toxic love may have conditioned you to expect this rupture, this blow up, this dismissiveness, this silence, lies, icing you out, you know, all these things that you've seen in the past, you begin to expect it. So a lot of the time, I think we go into these conversations with a new relationship, in a new relationship with a lot of

• 34:23Jemma Sbeg?

  apprehension and nerves and anxiety. And then when nothing happens, when it's all calm and respectful, we're a bit like, huh?

• 34:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Is that what that's meant to feel like? Honestly, sometimes that can feel like a trap, like, oh, we've sorted this argument out, they've given me all the information. I need to know, where's the rest of this? Where's the rest of the drama? The thing about healthy love is that sometimes when you are arguing and when you are communicating and you're expecting the worst and the worst doesn't come.

• 34:57Jemma Sbeg?

  It's weird. It doesn't give these emotions a place to go. Because those emotions didn't belong in that space to begin with, but in the aftermath, like you've come in so hot and expecting something so terrible. Sometimes it can feel like you are unconsciously the one who was escalating things and like suddenly you're the toxic one in the relationship, if that makes sense, because I don't know, there's this whole stored up fear and anticipated anger that doesn't have an outlet. That was my experience at least. Like I had to learn how to fight with my partner. I felt like when I entered this relationship, I was spreading patterns from my past relationship because that was my operating manual.

• 35:39Jemma Sbeg?

  And it made me feel like, in the beginning at least, like, am I the toxic one? Am I now becoming the person who previously like hurt me? Some people call these survival behaviours, some people call it emotional reactivity. I think the best label for this is just predictive processing. Your brain operates on a set of expectations determined by prior experiences. And it's constantly trying to predict what's gonna happen, what's coming for me, what's this fight gonna end up like? And so it gets your body all ready and all hyped up for that situation, that anticipated situation. And then when it never comes, there's such a crash. There's a lot to unlearn.

• 36:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Because you basically have to stop predicting the worst case scenarios and the worst outcomes and you have to remain open to a better scenario, which can leave you feeling really vulnerable and really unprepared when you're walking into these conversations with hope. Being like, I really think I know, but what if I don't know? And what if I should anticipate this worst case scenario? But I think the beautiful thing about healthy love is that you come into it maybe with fear and then you come down together. You emerge knowing each other more. Honestly, and I really hope he doesn't mind me saying this, but Some of the moments I've just felt closest to Tom have been in the days after a fight. Because I feel like he knows me better.

• 37:08Jemma Sbeg?

  And I know him better because everything was so raw, it was so honest. I never felt that way with any of my exes. Never. It was just panic, panic for days. And I, I remember I used to mute their messages and then unmute them and then mute them again. And I would turn my phone off and I would like check it again and just, just in case they'd messaged me and it was this whole toxic pattern of like. I knew that getting into a fight and bringing things up would mean that we wouldn't talk for days. And it would always feel like my fault. You know, this one particular ex I'm thinking about, I remember he literally forgot it was my grandfather's funeral and that was my fault.

• 37:51Jemma Sbeg?

  I remember saying, and I've said the story, so it's, it doesn't hurt anymore, but I remember telling him I loved him and he told me he was going on a date with somebody else. And we had this big argument and that was my fault. I remember like if he had an emotional outburst, if he said something rude, that was still my fault. How? I don't know. I always justified it back then that it was, but healthy love on the other hand, you know, it's just, it's just very easy and it's very quiet. And there isn't this blame game. Sometimes people describe it as feeling because of that, like almost too calm, like something is missing. Um, it's too quiet and that can bring up a lot of anxious questions about settling and questions about compatibility, like shouldn't there be a spark?

• 38:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Shouldn't I feel electricity? Isn't the fighting a sign that we like each other, that we're willing to like push through together? But I always used to question that and I still question that, you know, was it really a spark or was it just anxiety masquerading as excitement?

• 38:52Jemma Sbeg?

  Was it really a spark or like, is this just this feeling of anticipation without resolution? Is this, is this really a spark or were you just fighting all the time? This thing that you think you're missing with this new person, um, I don't think it's a connection. Because there's obviously something that's keeping you in this healthy relationship. I think what you're missing, when you feel this like boredom or like, is this person not the one? Because we're not arguing and there's not that passion. What you're missing is adrenaline. What you're missing is hypervigilance. And I think the funny thing about hypervigilance is that it can feel remarkably like presence. And like, you're really in tune with the other person.

• 39:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Because that's what hypervigilance does. It keeps your nervous system and your attentional systems on high alert, picking up on everything. That's not love though. That's not love. That intensity is not the only thing that can make a relationship survive. Here are some things that it does need. Here's that continuation of that list we were talking about. What does healthy love feel like? Healthy love, amongst all those other things we've said, is also not conditional. It is not conditional on you being good or behaving in the right way to receive attention. Or they only treat you right if you do what they want you to.

• 40:15Jemma Sbeg?

  Or they only treat you right or give you what you need if you don't ask for too much. It is not conditional on some kind of behaviour that works best for them. It's also a situation where there is equality. One person doesn't have more of the power. One person isn't the one calling the shots and you know that. You know that like, each of you comes in equal. There is not somebody in this situation who could completely destroy the other person because they are. Completely unattached. And there's not one person who is in this situation who is willing to give everything and get nothing in return. It's equal. There is equal investment, there is equal time spent, there is equal, yeah, just respect.

• 41:00Jemma Sbeg?

  And I also just think it's meant to be fun. You know, healthy love isn't always easy. Uh, it's not like you don't have these bumps. It's not like you don't occasionally have doubts. Even looking at your parents, for example, if your parents are still together or your grandparents, or if you think of an example of healthy love in your life, like there are still things that sometimes go wrong, but you are actually, at the end of the day, enjoying yourself in that relationship authentically. And you feel like you can be yourself. Here is something a therapist friend of mine actually reminded me um that we have to be aware of though. Sometimes those things, all those examples of healthy love I just gave, they actually lose their appeal after toxic love.

• 41:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, they don't feel the same way, they don't have the same kind of drive, we don't have the same drive towards them.

• 41:51Jemma Sbeg?

  Our, I don't wanna say our desire systems, but like our preferences after toxic love in many ways can change. And that's, you're definitely not responsible for how someone treated you, especially when you were so ready to give them everything. And you were so invested in the relationship, like you're definitely not responsible for that. But sometimes those experiences can actually change what we find ourselves attracted to. Just based on, on patterns and what feels known. Research, including a recent paper published just last year, tells us that we love what feels familiar.

• 42:32Jemma Sbeg?

  And so if what is familiar is hot and cold behaviour. If what is familiar is passionate, all-consuming chemistry and not much else. If what is familiar is major highs and major lows and the promise of potential and the promise of the chase. Sometimes, guess what, sometimes you can continuously feel drawn to that. Even if rationally you know better.

• 43:03Jemma Sbeg?

  It's just your brain both being, both having adapted to this new kind of love and also feeling compulsively drawn to it because of how comforting it feels because it has the manuscript and it has the manual for that. Healthy love, it doesn't have the manual for that. Or maybe it did before, but it's kind of lost it. That's, that kind of feels outdated to you. So the last thing, if the last thing you experienced was this toxic situation, of course you're gonna feel drawn to that because at least you know how it ends. And at least you know how the storyline goes. I will also say, and this is a hot take I have.

• 43:43Jemma Sbeg?

  I honestly think that people who are very intelligent and are high achievers are often more susceptible to that kind of chase me, hard to get type behaviour because they are used to feeling like if everyone else can have it, it's not worth having. And they're used to this feeling of like, if something is really worth it, it will make me chase it a little bit and it should be a little bit out of reach to test me. And so sometimes those relationships that feel very like based on potential, that ask you to work, they, it feels like they're just asking you to work a little bit harder. And it feels like they're more desirable because you can't get it easily.

• 44:28Jemma Sbeg?

  And it's like this weird, I don't know, capture or like achievement drive you have like, why would I want the easy thing when the hard thing, surely it's gonna be more valuable because it's making me work harder. Like that effort is a sign of value. This may be a hard truth to swallow, but as much as you should be cognizant of other people's intentions when you are encountering or dating again after toxic love, you also have to question your own intentions as well. Are you just replicating what you have experienced in the past? Are you just self sabotaging here? Are you just giving, or are you not giving the right people a chance because of past patterns and what you've learnt from previous relationships?

• 45:12Jemma Sbeg?

  You have to be aware of other people's behaviour, definitely. But you also have to be aware of How you're maybe behaving. And I think a big part of that is just giving yourself more time to date slowly. Giving yourself time to be honest, this person I'm falling for. Do they match the old blueprint? Or the new blueprint for healthy love that I'm setting for myself? Are their behaviours the kind that I really want in a partner? Or just the kind that I'm used to? After toxic love, you know, there is this real urgency, often this real sense of like. Pedal to the metal to like lock down a relationship.

• 45:54Jemma Sbeg?

  Or like as soon as you meet somebody you really like to push for commitment. You know, you feel like you want to fuse very quickly. You feel like. You know, maybe you've been strung along in the past, this previous relationship was really um hard on you. So anything that can give you a sense of reassurance that this person isn't going to do that. Constantly texting, constantly sharing, becoming exclusive immediately, being really vulnerable. That can create like this artificial connection and closeness so that, you know. Unconsciously, you know, they won't walk away. That's a real habit I see, or you like find yourself kind of playing games.

• 46:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Or not even games, but like being very protective or like doing things that you know you shouldn't be doing just because of anxious patterns. You have to be aware of that and you have to be able to interrupt that before. It becomes a more entrenched pattern of behaviour. Let's just try getting to know somebody across time and very, very slowly. Let's just take how you would normally approach that relationship. And dial it back a few paces and a few kilometres. Just after toxic love. If you meet the right person, if you meet a person who you think is really great. Appreciate and pursue the slow burn and treat it almost like you are gathering information

• 47:18Jemma Sbeg?

  or that you are conducting kind of like a study in those first couple of weeks or months as well as dating. I think a helpful way to safeguard yourself from this like zero, zero to a hundred love bond in the early stages of dating is to actually just break up time between your dates and to just not make them the centre of your whole world. If you've been conditioned into thinking that the only worthwhile connection is an immediate one and is those intense bonds where like your mind is immediately sure they're the

• 48:00Jemma Sbeg?

  right person and filled with hope and you're excited by them and you spend all your time with them and it's just like this incredible passionate fire. Try your hardest to space out the dates. Try your hardest to just really give yourself the time to reality check. Is that, is that really what's happening here? Or is it just the passion of a new beginning? Leave at least a full week between dates and during that week, especially in the early months, continuously ask yourself, do I feel more like myself around them? Do I feel like I have to change anything about myself?

• 48:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Do I feel grounded or do they make me feel anxious? Do they make me feel very low? And is that them or is that me projecting? Do I feel calm or do I feel frantic? What is it about the relationship that is making me feel either of those things? But especially if you're feeling frantic, work to identify. And this is something I definitely had to do. Am I feeling frantic just because

• 49:09Jemma Sbeg?

  love is scary these days or am I feeling frantic because of something in their behaviour that's creating that in me? And also, and this is a big question to ask yourself.

• 49:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Are you actually into them? Are you actually curious about them? Or are you just chasing reassurance? Is it just because you like the attention? Is it just because they like you back?

• 49:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Give yourself time. Time to actually sit on the answers and the truth of the relationship. Then later, you know, if things move into a more established thing, follow the six month rule. This is really key. If you are very much prone to merging your life with somebody and with, you know, a love interest. For six months, just put off any big decisions. Any major decisions, moving in, getting a pet, making financial commitments, crafting your future around them, even traveling, give it six months.

• 50:15Jemma Sbeg?

  At the six months mark, then you can make a decision around where this is going. Slow everything down. Give yourself space and time to assess. Give them time to prove themselves to you. I feel like this strategy, even if it feels unnatural at first, I also think that it's pretty marvelous because it lets you savor the love story a little bit more. You know, say this person is the one, especially if you're in your twenties, you know, you have the rest of your life to be with them. Fifty to sixty plus years, maybe, you know, you have the rest of your life of those big, bold moments, but those first six months, three to six months, where you're just curious about each other and you have the skittiness

• 50:59Jemma Sbeg?

  and you're excited about each other, that doesn't last forever. I just think the slower you go, everybody wins. The more you get to draw out that really beautiful beginning feeling, the more you get to really know somebody, the more you get to ease your anxiety into this new situation, the more you get to unlearn patterns. I've never heard anybody say, I regret going slow at the beginning of my relationship. Eh, nobody. I've heard a bunch of people say they regret moving too fast. I've heard from a bunch of people who say they regret um rushing through the honeymoon stage. I haven't heard anybody say, I regret taking my time and really knowing this person the way I would get to know a friend or the way I would get to know.

• 51:46Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I think a friend is the best way to say this, the way I'd get to know a friend. There's no rush. If they're the right one, you have plenty of time. Okay, we are gonna take another short break here, but when we return, let's talk through some more ways to approach healthy love from a psychological perspective, especially after toxic love and especially in your twenties. Stay with us.

• 52:13Speaker 04

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• 52:43Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 53:21Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know I'm such a data and information-driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit and I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable, personalized

• 54:03Jemma Sbeg?

  insights that have made me more intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. Something that really frustrates me is when wellness brands greenwash their products to make them seem more clean or better for the environment when they are actually not. When you look into it, they are kind of just like the rest of them. Nature's Sunshine, however, doesn't just talk about the planet. They do something about it. They sustainably

• 54:44Jemma Sbeg?

  source ingredients. They craft their supplements with 100% solar powered manufacturing and their products are incredible. I don't drink coffee and so Nature's Sunshine Brain Edge gives me that kick I sometimes need with potent ingredients, combining yerba mate with nootropics, adaptogens, botanicals to support mental clarity and focus. And you already know how much I love their marine glow and have for years. It is the only collagen that combines skin supporting marine collagen with the sun and blue light protection of luton to make your skin feel and look glowy and protected. Plus, I just really like that they have nature at the core of everything that they do. Try Nature's Sunshine and experience

• 55:27Jemma Sbeg?

  the difference with supplements that are better for you and the planet. Go to naturessunshine.com today and use the code PSYCH for 20% off your first order plus free shipping. That's code PSYCH for 20% off your first order at naturessunshine.com.

• 55:45Jemma Sbeg?

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• 56:29Jemma Sbeg?

  And this product is perfect for that. I also find that Moisture Surge is a great lightweight base. If you like something under your makeup, it makes your skin look so plump and soft, especially first thing in the morning when it's maybe not looking that way. Basically, I think it feels exactly like how you want a moisturizer to feel. Fresh, lightweight, and deeply hydrating. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 57:00Jemma Sbeg?

  A huge habit I found myself picking up from past relationships was making myself smaller so it would be easier to fit into somebody else's life, rather than seeing if they would and could fit into mine. And that is something that you definitely need to unlearn. Toxic love often teaches you that, again, love is conditional. And it's conditional on you being easy for the other person. And you following their guidebook or their guidelines. I think when you encounter healthy love after that, you now have to work on not shrinking. Brag about yourself. Ask for more.

• 57:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Make sure they know you expect to be a priority. And make sure they know that you like yourself. And you are cool and you are nice and you are fun. And you are somebody they would be lucky to know. You are a very big soul, you're a very big heart, you're expecting big love. That is a very easy way to weed out people who won't be able to meet those needs. Yes, as much as we want to be slow and conscientious, that doesn't mean you don't get to express what you really need. And it is a great way, it's a great litmus test for who is not going to be able to meet the mark and kind of meet the performance metrics to love you and to like be in your life.

• 58:28Jemma Sbeg?

  I want you guys to remember this and even repeat it as as an affirmation to yourself. If they are the one, they would want as much of me as they possibly could get. And that doesn't just include the good stuff. It includes the emotions, it includes the depth, boundaries, the vulnerability, the hard things, maybe even like the disagreements. All of it. You are deserving of a love that is so full and complete. It is like bursting at the seams. And if they cringe at that, if they can't handle it, if they don't have room, I just don't think your lives are aligned. And it shouldn't be anything you read anything more into. It's nothing more or nothing less than this is just you're incompatible.

• 59:12Jemma Sbeg?

  You have to continue to believe after toxic love that big things are out there, even if it feels helpless. This also includes, I guess, knowing the importance of being direct, which is really, really hard, but dating and the love game for me had the most dramatic shift once I learnt that just saying what I needed. Because I trusted myself and because I wanted more for myself was going to get me better outcomes. And it genuinely changed my dating life and my love life. Do you know how I knew my boyfriend was the one? And last story about him, I promise.

• 59:52Jemma Sbeg?

  It was when we had maybe been dating for like a couple of months and he came over to my house and we were drinking Aperol spritzers on my balcony and we went to dinner and at dinner, I was like, okay, I'm gonna give it to you completely straight. And I fully expected him to kind of be like, I'm out. But I didn't really, I kind of knew, right? I was like, but I just had to say it. I was like, I'm gonna give it to you straight. I'm looking for a relationship. And that doesn't mean you have to promise one to me now. That doesn't mean that like we need to go all in because we're taking it slow. But if that is not your goal, just let me know now. And it was like, we'd had a lot of fun. We were two months in. If I was gonna go any further, I just needed to be, I wasn't going to, like, I needed to be prepared and I needed to have my

• 1:00:37Jemma Sbeg?

  leads met. And I remember his reaction was a bit, he was a bit shocked, but he was like, all right, honestly, like, I'm all in. That's, we're on the same page. And that was early days. So I felt slightly uncomfortable, like, coming to him with this demand, being like, this is what I want. But I also knew that directness would scare away anybody who wasn't the one, because I'm a direct person, right? I'm somebody who really asks and likes what they want. So I wasn't gonna go through that whole terrible situation again of hoping that he would maybe give it to me one day. I know a lot of us think that, like, the person we should end up with is, would read our minds and we should be in complete sync with them and they should know exactly what's going on

• 1:01:21Jemma Sbeg?

  with us and there's this emotional link. But, you know, the science isn't there yet. I'm sorry to say, they can't read your mind. Sometimes they can't take the hint. You just have to be very utilitarian and direct about it and ask the answers you need, or ask the questions you need the answer to in order to move forward without playing coy and without playing games. I think my final, slightly controversial thing, I will say, when approaching healthy love after toxic love is just to actually question your gut instinct. If it's telling you this person isn't the one and the only reason it believes that is because you feel bored.

• 1:02:03Jemma Sbeg?

  Trust gut instincts that say, I don't think this person is a nice person. Trust gut instincts that say, I think this person is using me. But especially after you've experienced toxic love, if there is a part of you that's like, oh, this person's just like a little bit too boring. Or I'm settling or like, oh, I don't know, I feel like I should be, I should be more like really into them. Just pause. Pause for that intuition, that intuition only. I just think when you have become so used to, again, the major psychological games and the major psychological and emotional highs and lows of a toxic relationship. That feeling of calm can be unsettling because,

• 1:02:46Jemma Sbeg?

  not because, I should say, not because the relationship is wrong, but because your interpretation of what it is and what is right for you has been kind of messed with. Take a moment. If you are feeling this right now and you're like, I can't tell whether it's just because of past experiences or because I am actually settling. Just write down what is actually wrong with this relationship that is causing you to want to leave it. What about this relationship isn't working or living up to your expectations? And if the only answer you can give is, I just feel a little bit bored. Or this just feels a little bit like, it feels a little bit too easy, or I feel like I'm settling.

• 1:03:30Jemma Sbeg?

  Maybe just reassess and give it a little bit more time. And I know there'll be people coming at me being like, that's terrible advice, that's awful advice.

• 1:03:39Jemma Sbeg?

  I just feel like if there is nothing else wrong with this person, maybe give them a second chance, if that's the only thing you can think of. And yes, sometimes you'll do this exercise and you'll realise, okay, something is genuinely missing. And that's like actually an equally good outcome. Like, I think whatever clarity this gives you, healthy love does still need chemistry. And it does still need alignment, but if you have alignment and if you do enjoy them and it's just because you're bored. And they're otherwise a really nice person and they're really incredible and they really make you feel great about yourself. And you're having a lot of fun. Stick with it. Just stick with it and see how it goes.

• 1:04:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Worst comes to worst, you stay, you end up being with somebody for a little bit longer who treats you really, really well and allows you to move back into like a secure pattern and a secure way of seeing love. Worst comes to worst, you know, it, it doesn't work out, but at least you have this example that there is somebody out there who was really amazing and will treat you well and will give you what you need, even if it's not like, even if it's not, it doesn't end up being the one, just those examples of love, I think are, are really, really brilliant. So give the easy and safe love a second chance.

• 1:05:02Jemma Sbeg?

  If your intuition is going wild with it, maybe question how your intuition has been shifted by emotional chaos. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope it has been a good, honestly introduction into what toxic love may or may not do to us and how it changes us. There was a lot of rambling going on and I'm sorry, so if you have made it this far, I do very much appreciate it and I hope that whatever situation you are in, you're doing all right and that you are feeling more and more optimistic by the day about there being wonderful love out there for you. Maybe it's not the one just yet, but I hope you're feeling more optimistic that there

• 1:05:44Jemma Sbeg?

  are just good people who will love you well and that you do have a lot of options and that you are deserving of wonderful things, even if this past situation has made you think that everybody's out to get you or like everybody's out to hurt you or all love ends, I promise that is, that's not the case. Why would we have so many beautiful love stories? There's always hope out there and I don't think it's necessarily the thing that kills us all the time. I think it's, it's healthy to be optimistic about the future of, of romance and about finding someone who's incredible. So again, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you are listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, make sure you give us a five star review. If you're in the U S or Canada, you can also watch on Netflix.

• 1:06:28Jemma Sbeg?

  So if you like video podcasts and you wanna check this one out, um, go and watch it there. I feel like it brings a whole new vibe. Um, if you've ever wondered what I look like and you've only ever seen or heard my voice. There's a good opportunity for you to go and, I don't know, it's kind of weird, go and judge my appearance, but no, just go and check out the studio, check out the vibes. It's very nice, calm, peaceful set, a very nice, calm, peaceful video podcast. So, um, yeah, tell me what you think about it. Make sure as well you're following us on Instagram. You can also get, um, transcripts of these episodes on our Substack. If you are subscribed over there, I would really recommend it.

• 1:07:07Jemma Sbeg?

  You get cool articles in your inbox a couple of times a week for you to expand your information horizons and your knowledge horizons. Thank you as always to our researcher Libby Colbert for her help with this episode. She's incredible and she did an amazing job researching a lot of that neurobiological and neurochemical, the neurochemical interactions we were talking about. So we appreciate her greatly, but until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself. We will talk very, very soon.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

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• 1:08:14Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 1:08:51Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year. And something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop. Because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day. Why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress. And most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns. So I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 1:09:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Something that really frustrates me is when wellness brands greenwash their products to make them seem more clean or better for the environment when they are actually not. When you look into it, they are kind of just like the rest of them. Nature's Sunshine, however, doesn't just talk about the planet. They do something about it. They sustainably source ingredients. They craft their supplements with 100% solar powered manufacturing. And their products are incredible. I don't drink coffee and so Nature's Sunshine Brain Edge gives me that kick I sometimes need with potent ingredients combining yerba mate with nootropics, adaptogens, botanicals to support mental clarity and focus. And you already know how much I love their marine glow and have for years.

• 1:10:21Jemma Sbeg?

  It is the only collagen that combines skin supporting marine collagen with the sun and blue light protection of luton to make your skin feel and look glowy and protected. Plus, I just really like that they have nature at the core of everything that they do. Try Nature's Sunshine and experience the difference with supplements that are better for you and the planet. Go to naturessunshine.com today and use the code PSYCH for 20% off your first order plus free shipping. That's code PSYCH for 20% off your first order at naturessunshine.com.

• 1:10:56Jemma Sbeg?

  You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer is for. Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump glowing skin. That is correct, 100 hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin. It's allergy-tested, it's fragrance-free, it absorbs quickly. So skin feels hydrated without feeling heavy or weighed down. I use this daily and I'm very picky with what goes on my skin. I have a combination skin type, so I really don't want to feel too oily or too dry.

• 1:11:40Jemma Sbeg?

  And this product is perfect for that. I also find that Moisture Surge is a great lightweight base. If you like something under your makeup, it makes your skin look so plump and soft. Especially first thing in the morning when it's maybe not looking that way. Basically, I think it feels exactly like how you want a moisturizer to feel. Fresh, lightweight, and deeply hydrating. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good.

• 1:12:25Jemma Sbeg?

  Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise. Whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 1:12:48Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year. And something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop. Because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day. Why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress. And most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns. So I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 1:13:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Hi, this is Jemma Sbeg. Taking care of yourself doesn't have to mean completely changing your routine. Naturewise Vitamin D3 is an easy way to support immune, bone and muscle health every single day. And because quality matters, Naturewise has one of the first NSF certified Vitamin D3 currently on the market. Plus it's non-GMO, gluten free and third party tested. Visit naturewise.com to explore their Vitamin D3 options and find the one that's right for you. Naturewise.com. You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer is for.

• 1:14:17Jemma Sbeg?

  Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump glowing skin. That's right, 100 hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin. It's allergy tested and fragrance free. I use this all the time. It makes my skin feel so fresh and plump and glowy. Even under makeup, I still see an amazing difference. It never leaves my skin oily or tacky. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like moisture surge. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.